Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1248 | Kirkism vs. Kellerism: Why the 'Third Way' Fails

Episode Date: October 1, 2025

Today, we dive into the Kirk vs. Keller debate: bold truth-telling versus winsome “third way” evangelism. Charlie Kirk’s unapologetic gospel and conservative clarity transformed millions, while Tim Keller’s approach often led to compromise. Join us to reject cultural cowardice, embrace fearless faith, and discern how to evangelize effectively in a hostile world, standing firm for Christ’s truth. Share the Arrows 2025 is on October 11 in Dallas, Texas! Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠http://sharethearrows.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ for tickets now! Sponsored by: ⁠Carly Jean Los Angeles⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.carlyjeanlosangeles.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Good Ranchers⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.goodranchers.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠EveryLife⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.everylife.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Buy Allie's new book, "Toxic Empathy: How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion": ⁠⁠https://www.toxicempathy.com/⁠⁠ --- Timecodes: (00:00) Intro (2:00) The Impact of Tim Keller's Evangelism (15:00) The Impact of Charlie Kirk's Evangelism (21:30) Should Christians Get Involved in Politics? (42:00) The Dangers of Winsomeness (52:15) Uncompromising Apologetics (01:01:30) Different Tones of Evangelism --- Today's Sponsors: Good Ranchers — Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠GoodRanchers.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and subscribe to any of their boxes (but preferably the Allie Beth Stuckey Box) to get free Waygu burgers, hot dogs, bacon, or chicken wings in every box for life. Plus, you’ll get $40 off when you use code ALLIE at checkout. EveryLife — The only premium baby brand that is unapologetically pro-life. EveryLife offers high-performing, supremely soft diapers and wipes that protect and celebrate every precious life. Head to EveryLife.com and use promo code ALLIE10 to get 10% of your first order today! Seven Weeks Coffee — Experience the best coffee while supporting the pro-life movement with Seven Weeks Coffee; use code ALLIE at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.sevenweekscoffee.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to save up to 25% off your first order, plus your free gift! Constitution Wealth Management — Let's discover what faithful stewardship looks like in your life. Visit ⁠⁠Constitutionwealth.com/Allie⁠⁠ for a free consultation. Masa Chips — Go to https://masachips.com/allieb and use promo code ALLIEB for a discount on your first time order of seed oil free tortilla chips! --- Episodes you might like: Ep 609 | Tim Keller’s Terrible Abortion Take https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-609-tim-kellers-terrible-abortion-take/id1359249098?i=1000559379681 Ep 560 | How Tim Keller & Russell Moore Became Mouthpieces for Masks & Vaccines | Guest: Megan Basham https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-560-how-tim-keller-russell-moore-became-mouthpieces/id1359249098?i=1000550480363 Ep 508 | My Response to John Piper, Tim Keller & Big Eva https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-508-my-response-to-john-piper-tim-keller-big-eva/id1359249098?i=1000539092606 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://alliebethstuckey.com/book⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey⁠

Kirkism versus Kellerism, which way of evangelism is actually more effective? Tim Keller was very impactful in his apologetics and evangelism work, but Charlie Kirk has reached millions and millions of people through his boldness, not only in politics, but also in the gospel. We've got a raging debate going on right now about which way is better, and I will take you through both approaches and what we should be thinking about this as Christians today. If you love this podcast, please subscribe, YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, subscribe on Blaze TV, Google Play, all the places. Leave us a five-star review. It helps us out so much. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Constitution Wealth. Christian investors are often shocked to learn that their portfolios

include companies supporting causes that go against their faith. That's why I trust Constitution Wealth. They screen investment so your money isn't propping up agendas that conflict with scripture. Visit constitutionwealth.com slash alley for a free consultation. Constitutionwealth.com slash alley. Hey guys, welcome to relatable. Happy Wednesday. Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far. All right.

There's been this debate raging online about Charlie Kirk versus Tim Keller. At first I was a little bit confused about this battle, what the two had to do with each other. but I actually think it sparked a very interesting conversation about how we effectively evangelize in this world that is increasingly hostile to Christianity. So since Charlie Kirk died, there have been several declarations of the death of what is called the third way. And the third way, if you don't know, many of you already do, but it's an approach to politics and the culture wars and evangelism that was popularized. by the late pastor and very influential author Tim Keller. And it essentially argues that the Christian should neither be right nor left and not really down in the nitty gritty of politics and cultural battles, but really stay focused on the

gospel. Keller would argue that you engage in politics and culture, but not in the kind of direct brash way that we see a lot of people on the left and right doing today. So that's what he dubbed the third way. And in his book, Centre Church, which I believe he wrote in 2012, he says this. He says, the church must neither simply assimilate to the world's values nor isolate itself from the world. And he says the gospel gives us a third way to live in the world yet distinct from it, serving it while holding fast to our Christian distinctives.

And honestly, you might listen to that and you might think that sounds pretty good. However, Keller does argue that Christians should adopt positions from both sides of the political aisle in order to be biblically faithful. He wrote this in an op-ed in the New York Times in 2018, and he argued, quote, The historical Christian positions on social issues do not fit into contemporary political alignments. For example, he says, following both the Bible and the early church, Christians should be committed to, racial justice and the poor, but also to understanding or to the understanding that sex is only for marriage and for nurturing family. He says one of these views seems liberal and the other looks oppressively conservative. And I'll get into my thoughts on that statement just a little bit when we dig more

into this position. He also wrote a book called generous justice several years ago in which he asserts that Christians must not only preach the gospel, but also do justice, as Micah 6-8 tells us, and he goes on to define justice by looking at different concepts in the Old Testament. And he really makes the case for what we see today as social justice, is using the government to try to create some sort of equity or equality of outcomes. I'm not calling him a socialist, and I'm not saying he was on the far left, but he's certainly had progressive ideas for how Christians should actually carry out Micah 6A in America today. And now, depending on where you are, all of that might sound great to you. And there are certainly

parts of this philosophy that appeal to me. I mean, Tim Keller was massively impactful. He led a massive church called Redeemer Prez in Manhattan. He authored 31 books before he died in 23 and several of his books impacted me. Helps shape my faith, especially in high school when I was really digging into theology for the first time. I still recommend many of his books to people who want to learn more about Christian apologetics. Reason for God is a huge one. We had to read that my senior year of high school. I'm still using and thinking through some of the incredible defenses for the faith that are in that book. I really recommend it to you. Meaning of marriage is beautiful. We read that when we were engaged.

Pradical God, life-changing book, Every Good Endeavor, totally changed my perspective on work. Again, another book I'm still thinking about that I read like eight years ago. And then over 12 years ago, his little book, The Freedom of Self-Forgitfulness, planted the seeds for my first book. You're Not Enough. And I quote that book, and you're not enough. Keller was a really solid theologian in so many ways.

Huge impact. I have no doubt that God used him to bring many, many people. over his decades of ministry to the gospel. So when Keller spoke or when Keller wrote, I was inclined to listen. However, whether Keller intended this or not, many of the people who have adopted his third way position to politics in the gospel, people like Russell Moore, people like David French and many others, have all very demonstrably shifted to the left in the past 10 years. Moore wrote a book condemning white evangelicals for buying a false political gospel by voting for

Donald Trump. He has been vehemently anti-Trump for a long time. David French, of course, another vehemently anti-Trump guy who now writes for the New York Times. He now also uses preferred pronouns for men who identify his women. So he's lying about the biological reality that God lays out for us in the first chapter of the first book of the Bible. Both of these men profess Christianity David French also endorsed Harris the last election. They are a part of an organization called the After Party, which urges churches to avoid getting into the muck and the mire of things like gender and abortion. And they lead this with Curtis Chang, who dedicated nearly all of his public energy in 2021 to convincing Christians to get the COVID vaccine. He said that Christian's vaccine hesitancy is linked to QAnon-fueled paranoia.

And he also, and this is why this is important, this is why this matters and is all connected, he considers himself a third way Tim Kellerite. And both Chang and Keller were champions of someone named Francis Collins. And I'll remind you about who Francis Collins is and how he fits into the third way in just a second. Let me go ahead and pause. Tell you about our first sponsor for the day. It's seven weeks coffee. Absolutely love seven weeks. They're going to be at Share the Arrows in just a couple weeks there. awesome. They are America's pro-life coffee company. They're called seven weeks because at seven weeks gestation, so the very beginnings of pregnancy, that little baby is the size of a coffee bean. And yet, even though here she is small, she is a person made in God's image and has full value.

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This year's Share the Arrows is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to sharetheeroes.com. Sharethearrows.com. Okay. So Francis Collins, very well connected to Tim Keller. He was the National Institutes of Health Director during the COVID era. He's been in public health for a long time. He and Curtis Ching led this project called Christians in the Vaccine. He pushed really hard for vaccines, supported from what I can see from my research mask and vaccine mandates. He even spoke to churches via webinars telling Christians that it was their Christian responsibility to get the vaccine. He argued that this was a way to love your neighbor. He argued that the vaccine was a part of God's

redemption story. Just think about everything we know. and even then knew and did not know, and then to use the gospel and someone's obligation by Christ to love other people to tell them that they need to get a vaccine that we knew so little about at the time, and we now know did not accomplish the things that scientists and propagandists said that it was going to accomplish at the time. I mean, that is some audacity right there. But Keller and Collins were close friends, and Keller completely supported Collins. They did podcasts together during this time, during this COVID era.

Keller regularly wrote for Collins' outlet biologos. And Keller defended Collins many times, especially when he was getting a lot of criticism from fellow Christians during the COVID era for the things he was saying. And he actually compared him. Keller compared Collins to Daniel in the Bible. But Collins not only supported embryonic stem cell research and the scientific use of fetal tissue, long time ago, which people say encourages the discarding of these humans for money. But he also led the NIH when it launched LGBTQ initiatives like allyship in action. Like his name was actually signed off on these things completely affirming things like transgenderism.

He also in 2021 apologized for the effects of structural racism, which he claims set minorities back. So he is a left-wing guy. And yet he was hugely supportive. by Keller and was hoisted up as an example of this third wayism, of this faithful, soft, but persistent presence that Christians are supposed to have in the secular world. And, you know, Tim Keller also lauded people like, oh gosh, what's his name? He's one of the late night comedian, Stephen Colbert. He also lauded Stephen Colbert, another, you know, very liberal guy and said, this is a good example of being a faithful presence and sharing

the gospel with a confused world. So what we see over and over again, as positively impactful as I think Tim Keller was in so many of his works, is that his third wayism and its emphasis on winsomeness. So making the truth attractive to a confused culture, that's what that's supposed to mean, has really become an excuse for a lot of people, not everyone, but a lot of people to reflectively repudiate anything associated with conservatism and Donald Trump and run the other direction because conservatism, white evangelicalism, supporting for Trump or supporting Trump, voting for Trump, these things to this crowd is often seen as embarrassing or unintellectual or unsophisticated failing to understand the nuances of culture. And so by this third way crowd,

this kind of group of evangelicals who happen to vote for Donald Trump and be conservative and they're worried about the liberal culture wars raging, they're saying, they're see those people really as a hindrance to the gospel, a hindrance to evangelism to non-believers. Okay, so that's third wayism. That's what we've got over there. And again, maybe that was not the intent of thirdwayism. Maybe that's not everything Keller was, but that has been in prominent evangelical circles and public evangelical circles at places like Christianity today, the after party, all of that. That's been its effect. And then on the other hand, You have Charlie Kirk, who evangelized on college campuses into groups around the world,

while also intertwining politics and culture war issues completely unapologetically. I mean, he unashamedly shared the gospel with one student who would come to the front of the line. And then the next student, he would also encourage them to adopt, you know, positions on capitalism and all kinds of conservative principles and to always vote for the most liberty-minded conservative option on the ballot. And he was very blunt in a lot of cases. He was very straightforward. He was extremely clear. And from what I've seen, he really never changed his message and rarely from what I saw changed his approach, no matter to whom he was speaking. And he was obviously a very unwavering Trump supporter, a big defender of Trump. He said the controversial thing. He completely rejected

worldly definitions of racism and equity and social justice. And although he is so different from the third wayism that we just articulated by Tim Keller, we have now seen millions and millions of people hear the gospel and many people come to the faith because of Charlie's fierceness in telling the truth. Before I guest hosted Charlie's podcast last week, I asked my audience to please send me testimonies of how God used Charlie's words to bring you to Christ. And I got so many emails. You never know how many people are going to go through the trouble of getting out of the

Instagram app, typing in the email and actually doing it. And so I was shocked at just like my inbox was full of people saying this is how God used Charlie to positively impact my life and push me back towards church in the Bible. But this one testimony from a young woman named Jacqueline was so special that I actually had her on Charlie's show to share it. But here's what she said in part of her email. She said I was also very deep into the new age. I read my Oracle cards and had tarot readings, crystal energy healing, went to moon circles, carried crystals with me everywhere. She said I was definitely bitter and defensive towards Christians, yet I was always constantly searching for a greater meaning. The deeper I went into the new age and the more focused on myself,

I was the emptier I felt. I told myself I just needed to do more shadow work or integrate and release my traumas. I mean, this whole email could be an entire podcast. When really, she says, I just needed Jesus. In New Age, everything is so focused on the me when really all our focus needs to be on him. And then she goes on to explain that her husband always listened to Charlie Kirk, that he always leaned right. And she said that at first she was so affronted by what he was saying. She was so offended. It was so different, she says, from the mindset that she was in. And then she says, the more I listened, though, the more it all made sense. The more I could feel Jesus calling me. So I picked up a Bible and I began reading. She said, as I listened to,

Charlie, the more my views politically changed as well, the more I read the Bible. I realized my views were the antithesis of the Bible completely incongruent. She says that now I have done a 180 on my views, religiously and politically, and I thank God for Charlie and his message. She says that unfortunately she's lost a lot of friends because of her views. She said a lot were hardcore liberals. She said that she was fired from her job for refusing to sign something, stating that she would use people's preferred pronouns, but she says, and this is all Christ. She says, I wouldn't change any of it. I've seen the light and we'll do everything to stand in its glory. Yes and amen. That's what Jesus does. And we're just vessels. I'm just a vessel. Charlie was just a vessel. You're just a vessel. But how incredible.

Like she explained in her interview with me that she was very offended by Charlie at first. She was very pro-abortion. And when she started hearing Charlie talk about abortion, she was offended. And then God used that, though, to soften her heart. That speaks to her own humility. That speaks to God's power. And when I shared that the other day, I got a comment on Spotify from someone saying, I hated this show, talking about, you know, relatable. I hated this show two years ago.

But now I'm coming to share the arrows and I'm on fire for Jesus. And I absolutely love messages and comments like that. I get them pretty often saying, you know, I actually found you from some Redditor who hated you or some page who hated you and I just enjoyed hate watching you and then they stuck around and you know God uses not me but his truth to change people's hearts and minds and then another email I got about Charlie that I thought was really sweet she said for the last four and a half years I refused to reach out to my father out of pride because of some words that were exchanged between us last and then she said watching a video of Charlie speaking with a young woman whose parents were divorced and one conservative and one liberal

she said made her stop in her tracks. She said, he said, this is what Charlie said to this woman in the video, it was her responsibility to honor her mother and father, according to the Bible. And this woman who emailed me said, it made me reflected admit to myself that the only reason I haven't reached out to my father is due to my own hurt, pride, and ego. I've been thinking, well, he can call me. He knows my phone number, but the Bible doesn't command my father to honor me. It commands me to honor him. And so, So she said, she said, I've been a follower of you and Charlie Kirk for many years. She said the day after Charlie was killed, I called my father and had an hour and 40 minute. I'm trying not to cry.

An hour and 40 minute conversation after not speaking to him in over four and a half years. She said that they have a long road ahead. But that Charlie's words set her on the right trajectory. And I'm telling you guys, like I have received dozens and dozens of messages just like that. and I'm just one person. And so I'm sure that all of the other people who knew Charlie and have been talking about him have also received their own hundreds of messages. And there are hundreds of thousands of videos and testimonies just out there in the public,

not to mention the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people who heard the gospel shared at Charlie's Memorial. And so we've got to think about what is really most effective here. again, Tim Keller, hugely influential in his own rights. Decades of what I would call faithful ministry, obviously there are many things that I didn't agree on in his approach and we'll get more into that. But I'm sure that there are a lot of solid Christians out there who can credit Tim Keller and his wisdom for their conviction.

I am someone who can say that I was very positively affected by him, but I'm more in the camp of Charlie Kirk, just unapologetically like pushing. back against the darkness in the culture, knowing that some people won't like it, but also feel like that is a responsibility that we have. So here's what I want to contemplate today. Is there a biblical and unbiblical way to discuss politics as a Christian? Is it okay to not discuss politics as a Christian to not care about politics as a Christian? And I don't think actually either people in this camp would say that. But there definitely are Christians out there who say Jesus is coming back, we shouldn't care about politics. Is that okay? Should we at any point

forego or minimize our political views, our culture war views in order to evangelize and to appeal to a non-believer? Another question I think we should examine, does tone matter? And this is interesting, and I don't know that we'll have the fullness of the answer to this today, but it's interesting to ponder why does Charlie's approach typically lead people to the right? And why does Tim Keller's tactic typically lead people to the left. So we're going to dig into this today. We're going to look at some specifics on each person, Keller Kirk, Kelleherism versus Kerkism, and how they approached things.

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stop by and pick up a bag before they're gone. Okay, so let's look at Kellerism. More on the third way. So Keller told Premier Christian News in 2018 that it was harder to be an evangelical Christian in the U.S. with Donald Trump as president. He argued that Christians were having a harder time sharing their faith with non-believers

who would turn away from the church because it was too Republican. And we've heard this over and over again. And I've personally heard this from people who claim to be Christians that people like you are turning people away from Christ. People like you are why people are leaving the church or why they're not coming to church. And I just want to be like, well, I wish I could give you access to my inbox because that's just not true. Now, that's not to say that I or anyone is going to be everyone's cup of tea. But this idea is very prevalent that anyone

who is conservative or who votes for Donald Trump is pushing people away from the church. So Tim Keller, argued, the skeptic wants to believe that Christianity is just another political party that really everybody is in it for power. And so it just plays into their hands. And he's talking about if you are staunchly right or left Republican Democrat. He said there's been a danger everywhere in the West where a church becomes so identified with political power that always is alien, that is alienating to a lot of people. He said the high number of white evangelicals who have identified with Donald Trump, the Republican Party. That's a stronger political identification that's ever happened in my lifetime. And of course, he worried about that. We referenced to 2018 New York Times

op ed a little bit ago, and we quoted him saying that really Christians should be committed to principles and values that we see on the right versus the left. He says that we should adopt racial and social justice of the left while keeping in line with biblical sexual orthodoxy of the right. And that's really how to walk that line and commit to the third way as a Jesus follower and a Christian. Of course, I completely disagree with that because I would say how the left defines things like racial justice and equity and equality and compassion and empathy are not aligned with the Bible. You could say that we should care about people of all races and we should seek to honor them by making sure that they have the same dignified rights

as everyone else because they're made in the image of God. But that is not how the left defines things like racial justice and social justice. And so I know that I'm kind of debunking a lot of what Keller was saying as we're going, but it would be hard for me not to. I don't want to go through this and you think that I think that these positions are completely valid. I think that there are valid parts to his approach, but I'm already seeing the problem with it is that it's just not true that the left wing in this country defines things like justice the way that Christians should define them. He says that Christians should think of how God rescued them. He did it not by taking power, but by coming to earth, losing glory and power, serving and dying on a cross.

How did Jesus save? Not with a sword, but with nails in his hands. I saw this. much in 2020 saying that, you know, we shouldn't care about our rights. We shouldn't care about liberty. We shouldn't care about our constitutional freedoms because we should just be willing to lay those down in service to our neighbor. Often that was used to say get the vaccine, wear the mask, do the social distancing, pull your kid out of school, do online learning for two years, all of these things. And I'm like, but who's going to stand up for the rights of the people who can't speak for themselves. See, this is toxic empathy. Toxic empathy urges you to ignore the people on the other side of the moral equation. So you put all of your empathy towards

one group and you forget about the people on the other side who are being negatively affected by focusing only on the desires of this other group. And when it came to COVID, we said, okay, we got to supposedly save all these people by doing these things. And then we ignore the loss of learning the depression increase in abuse and anxiety and all of these kids who had no political capital no voice no saying any of that and those of us who were standing up for them we were told you're not loving your neighbor you're not doing a good job of being a Christian and so that's not explicitly what he says here but this kind of logic carried into 2020 to manipulate a lot of Christians and to being quiet when we saw what really was injustice the government's saying that

you are going to lose your job if you don't get this vaccine that you're not comfortable with, that you might not be ethically aligned with. Like that is an injustice. But it's ironic that the Christians who talk so much about social justice saw us as an impediment to loving our neighbor when that's exactly actually what we were trying to do. And you also see this talk of power and empire. He doesn't use the word empire here. But this is also a line of reasoning that is lodged at conservative Christians. It is, we are accused of just wanting power. That's why we're aligning with Trump. That's why we're conservative. And we're trying to turn this nation into Christian nationalism and theocratic fascism and

Christo-fascism, all of these crazy words. But traditionally, it's conservatives who are voting for less governments. Like, either we're fascists or we're Second Amendment proponents. We can't be both because fascists always want to take away people's guns. Fascists are the ones killing people for saying things and for having opinions that are calling for people to be terrorized, that are terrorizing pregnancy centers because they don't like what they're doing who are trying to assassinate Supreme Court justices because of how they decided on the Dobbs decision. Like if you want to look at what fascism actually is, if you want to look at people who want complete and total power, then I'm not sure that it should be the right that you're

primarily looking at. That's not to say there aren't power hungry people on the right. That's absolutely true. but it's not fair and it's not accurate. It's not factual to say that just because people voted for Donald Trump, that they want power and empire and all of this. And also, I just want to say, and it's pretty obvious, like where I'm landing on all of this, but I just couldn't wait until the end to try to debunk some of the things here and try to push back against it. This whole thing about power, that Christians should not seek power.

Well, someone's always going to have power. and the people who have power affect policy. And what do we know about policy? It affects people. It affects the vulnerable people most. It affects children in and outside of the womb. It affects the poor, the sick, the elderly, the vulnerable. So shouldn't we care about the person in power, who that person is, what their worldview is,

and how that affects the policies that then affect the people that we are trying to love? Why wouldn't we want the person in power to have a Christian worldview, or at least the people around him to have a Christian worldview. And I'm not arguing that Trump is a Christian worldview, but the people around him are a lot closer to a Christian worldview, as we saw at Charlie's Memorial than Kamala Harris, who was openly hostile to Christian values in every way. So it is okay for Christians to want to be in positions of power. He is using the example, the self-sacrificial example of Jesus, to say Christians should not try to seek power in any way. But remember, like, Jesus, the story of Christianity did not end or start when Jesus died.

The story of Christianity started when Jesus defeated death, when he rose from the grave. And Jesus is coming back, not as a baby in a manger, but as a warrior, as a savior, as a Messiah. And I'm not saying that that is necessarily like our model for how we should form the government. But I also don't think Jesus dying on the cross means that Christians are not supposed to try to obtain government offices that have influence on policy that then affects people. I mean, that is a complete rejection of the founders' ideas. Certainly, our founding documents are just replete with acknowledging that we were created by God, that morality and truth are created by God, that we were given rights by God. Without that, do you think that we have all of this goodness and the effects of righteousness? that we still have parts of today, like in recognizing the needs of the vulnerable? No.

Like Christians have recognized that Christians need to be affecting policy in order for good things to happen to weak people. And so it's just, it's wrong. It's wrong to say that Christians should not be seeking power. Power should be used to restrain evil and to advance righteousness. That's a very good thing. That's a good thing for our most vulnerable neighbors. When Christians say, oh, no, I'm just going to get out of that. Guess what? Babies inside the womb at 40 weeks gestation get murdered. Kids who say that they're confused about their gender,

they get their genitals chopped off. Parents lose custody of their kids because they won't affirm the opposite gender of their child. Drag Queen Story Hour goes on. Kids are read pornography in schools. That's what happens when Christians are not in power. So if we love our neighbor, Christians should absolutely seek influence.

That's my rant on that. All right. Let's talk about what he thought about, like racial and social justice and all of those things because I think he was also wrong on this. But let me go ahead and pause and tell you about my next sponsor, which is Good Ranchers. So after you get yourself some Masa chips on the side or on the side, that's going to be on the side of your meal, your Good Rancher's meal, because you're going to make, I don't know, some enchiladas or maybe you're going to make some cassidias with their ground beef and with their chicken. That's what I did last night.

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Good Ranchers.com, code Alley. So he believed in systemic racism that America is systemically racist. In 2012, he said it is a system that excludes and marginalizes people on the basis of race, even though most of the individuals in the system are not probably intentionally trying to do it. So we're all complicit. And here's what he said in June 2016, Sot 1. My pastor friend said, studies have shown, have pretty much proven that if you have white skin, it's worth a million dollars over a lifetime over somebody who doesn't have white skin. If you have that asset of white skin right now, historical asset, then you actually have to say,

I didn't deserve this. And also, to some degree, I'm the product of, I'm standing on the shoulders of other people who got that through injustice. I don't believe that at all. People in Appalachia would like a word. I'm thinking a lot of people are probably waiting for their white privilege check to come in the mail. I know that young Ukrainian woman who was killed on the train in Charlotte just a few weeks ago, I'm sure that she would have liked to cash in her white privilege at some points.

Certainly, when we look statistically, it's just not true, especially when we consider affirmative action, which very often prioritizes Hispanic and black applicants over very well qualified, even more qualified in many cases, white and Asian applicants. When we look at violence, for example, we see that it is much more. more likely, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, for a black person to murder or assault a white person than the opposite, despite the fact that white people make up a much a larger portion of the population. And so I'm wondering, like, where does this white privilege in all of the benefits that it offers, like, where is it kicking in? He disagreed with conservatives who put out the statement on social justice and the gospel in 2008. He, because they very rightly, Tom Askell and Voddy Baccom and others said, look, we deny

unbiblical social justice and we look to God to define what justice is. And yes, the government has a part of that. But Tim Keller said, no, that's wrong. He said it's not so much what the statement says, but what it does. It's trying to marginalize people talking about race and justice. It's trying to say, you're really not biblical and it's not fair. And that sense. I thought it was completely fair. You can go read the statement on social justice that came out a few years ago. It was exactly spot on. In 2020, he published a series of essays talking about the sin of racism, the Bible and race, a biblical critique of secular justice and critical theory. That's good. So I'm not saying he was far left. I'm not saying he was always wrong, but he certainly adopted left-wing thinking about whiteness and racism and equity and defined things. these words. I would argue not how the Bible defines them, but mostly how secular progressives

defined them. And here's a kind of strange thing that he said in June of 2021, that too. Recent immigrants or African Americans have been here from the beginning, but who because of slavery, then Jim Crow laws, then redlining, then everything is they've just, they've got no money in their networks. They just don't. And if you send them out there and say, raise your own support, they can't. So then what happens? is in so many of these eventual organizations, they basically are, because they can't do that, they never move up and really become part of the power. So he claims that non-white missionaries can't raise their own funds because of the lack of

white privilege. I think that there could be a lot of reasons that we could analyze for that that have nothing to do with the melanin count that someone has. All of this plays into this idea that we are split up by oppressed versus oppressed. oppressor, everyone who has black or brown, non-white skin is on the side of the oppressed to some degree. And everyone who has white skin is on the side of the oppressor, or at least the privilege to some degree. And that is not a dichotomy that we see supported by scripture. In fact, I would say that's the sin of partiality. Because God is not looking at us based on these arbitrary categories of our skin color. God is looking at us as individuals. So he's not, if a black,

person commits some kind of injustice towards a white person, he's not saying, well, let me just, the scales are a little different because of the race is involved. No, in that case, the black person is the oppressor. He doesn't care less about black on black murder or white on white murder. He doesn't care less about those things. That's not how he's judging things. And so that's not how we should judge things. Also, as we talked about, he was a good friend with Francis Collins, who he claimed was a very faithful presence. Now, remember Francis Collins. Now, remember Francis Collins, under his leadership, the NIH-funded research that violated Christian ethics such as mastectomies and puberty blockers for minors, fetal tissue studies using aborted remains, and app tracking

sexual behaviors of young teens. As I said, he promoted the vaccine very regularly, especially when he was talking to Tim Keller. Here's Sot 3. And it has, I guess, spilled over in the vaccine situation, and it breaks my heart to see why this has become such a nasty situation so often between people oftentimes quite educated who have bought into particular conspiracy theories about how vaccines are intended to just make money for pharmaceutical companies and we all know that they're actually harmful. And again, I'm not saying that Keller said that, but he is extremely supportive of platforming this. And this is someone who he believed was emblematic of his third.

way approach. And then, okay, so a lot of the defense that I see of Tim Keller is, well, he was strong on things like sex and marriage and gender. And while I do believe that in his heart of hearts he was, I do think that his emphasis on winsomeness actually made him compromise or it made him so careful about threading the needle that it was sometimes confusing about what he actually actually believe. So here's one thing he said about abortion in 2022. This was a second, a second tweet. And so the first tweet doesn't change anything about what he actually says, but that's why it starts with every year. So I know abortion is a sin, but the Bible doesn't tell me the best political policy to decrease or end abortion in this country, nor which

political or legal practices are most effective to that end. The current political parties will say that their policy, you know, most helps is most helpful or whatever. That's not true. Thou shalt not murder is a pretty good basis for us having the same kind of law here, right? This is so typical of the like, I'm holistically pro-life, which means I'm against borders and I'm against the death penalty, but when it comes to actually killing a baby, it's nuanced. No, it's really not complicated. Abortion ends an innocent human life. It's always wrong to end an innocent human life and therefore it should be illegal to take an innocent human life. And this is what I always press people. Should it ever be legal to kill an innocent person? In what case? Should it be

legal to kill an innocent person? And typically people will say, well, no, it shouldn't ever be legal. So why does that change based on the size or location or stage of development of the baby inside the womb. He's not really thinking about this from the perspective of a baby. He is arguing that it's kind of like up in the air whether or not babies in the womb should have a legal right to not be murdered. Should people of all ages and sizes have a legal protection against murder, a legal right to not be murdered? And if not, why not? And which people? Is it because they're small? Is it because they're young? Those seem like really arbitrary reasons did not grant someone the legal right to not be murdered. And by the way, the pro-life cause is not

just about reducing abortion. That's part of it. It's not just about reducing abortion, though. It's also about doing the right thing, which is granting someone the legal right to not be murdered. And even if that reduced abortions by zero percent, that would still be the right thing to do. Keller threaded the needle also on homosexuality. He claimed that the Bible says that it is not God's plan, but also that Christians should love our neighbor, which of course is true. But here's what he said. It's up for. You read the Bible, and the Bible has reservations. The Bible says homosexuality is not God's original design for homosexuality. Okay, there you have it. The Bible also says, love your neighbor. The Bible also, in fact, the Good Samaritan Parable, which is

how Jesus tells us to love our neighbor, you put a Jew and a Samaritan there. So what Jesus is trying to say is everybody is your neighbor. Gay people are your neighbors, people who are other faiths are your neighbors, people, other races are your neighbors. And it's the job of a Christian to do what Jesus did on the cross, which was to give himself for people who were opposing him, and people who didn't believe in him even. Okay, true. We are absolutely to love our neighbor, no matter who they are and how they identify. The question is, and I'm not sure that Keller ever properly defined this. What is love? And can you have love without true? I'm not sure that you can. Love never rejoices in wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. That's what the God who is love, 1 John 4-8 says in 1st Corinthians 13, 6. And I do think that he spoke the truth. I don't think he was always a coward, but again, we should ask ourselves why people who follow in the way of color seem so often to use the third way to veer to the left. He argued in a series of essays,

from fall of 2021 to summer of 2022, that the decline of evangelicalism is due to, quote, the conservative church politicization that has turned off half the country. And so he really believed, it seems, that it was all of the people, mostly down south, that were causing the problems, that we have failed to evaluate. evangelize. That's why he focused so much on what he called winsomeness and the importance of trying to use a charm to win people over, which, as I will explain it a little bit, I do not disagree with. I do not disagree with that, that we should be actually as winsome as possible. The problem is when winsomeness leads to compromise. And there is a reason why so many people who,

claim to champion this cause of wintomness and the third way end up being very cowardly when it comes to just being able to stand up for right and wrong. McLean Bible Church, David Platt's Church, they have a pastor named Mike Kelsey. He said some super woke things back in 2020. So this didn't surprise me. One of you sent me this sermon. It was like, you've got to watch this. I go to McLean Bible Church.

and then I watched it, I sent it to Megan Basham, and it's been circulating because it's so crazy. This person couldn't just say, you know, this Charlie Kirk was a person who delivered the gospel and he got assassinated for that. He had to also say this. This, I believe, is product of third wayism, Satin. In fact, in some cases I was shocked that so many professing Christians were rationalizing things that were so demeaning and unchrist-like and not just rationalizing things he said, but idolizing him as the prototype for a new generation of Christians. And here's my point in all of that. This is not just Charlie Kirk. This is all of us. Every single one of us is tempted to talk to or about people in ways that not only dishonor them,

but the God who created them in his image. He also says in that clip that he spent hours watching Charlie Kirk videos, hours watching Charlie Kirk videos, and that he watched them all in context, and that the context didn't help, that he actually said things that were just so denigrating to image bearers of God. Now, you'll notice that in this sermon, he didn't give an example. He didn't cite his sources. He didn't say this is exactly what he said, and this is why it is unbiblical and wrong. So to a bunch of people who have probably never heard Charlie Kirk in context, this person who got assassinated after sharing the gospel over and over again, they all think, well, yeah, I know that she just condemned political violence,

Mike Kelsey, but it does seem like this guy had it coming. Like, I don't think that we really should be honoring him as any kind of Christian hero. I don't really think that we should be watching his videos of him sharing the gospel because he said things that were so denigrating to image barriers of God. They've just been convinced right there. They didn't ask him to cite his sources. They didn't ask for evidence. If you go to this church, you should. Like he made the argument. Give me your specifics. Give me your examples. This is the same thing I've been saying since 2020. When your pastor is talking about racism, what you're guilty of and the injustices that you've perpetuated, tell me, which one specifically? I want to know. Do I bear? Do I bear?

the collective guilt of people who kind of looked like me, who lived in the same relative geographical region 200 years ago? Is that how justice works in the Bible? Is this how pastors should talk here? This to me is a product of third wayism. This kind of tone policing without ever giving any substantive evidence of what you're doing is just also really bad logic and a bad rhetorical strategy. But this is what we see over and over again. So let's contrast this to who Charlie Kirk was. and how he did things. And then let's look objectively. Obviously, y'all know which camp I'm in. But let's look objectively and ask some questions. And yes, I'm going to bring some nuance into the conversation as we try to go through. Like, what is the right way to approach all of this? And we're

all trying the best that we can and we should be. So let's ask those questions, honestly. Let me go ahead and pause. Tell you about our next sponsor first. And that is Every Life. Y'all know that I use every life diapers and wipes in our home. They're so good. They work so. well. I love that they're clean ingredients, but ingredients materials, maybe not ingredients. Please don't eat your EveryLife diapers. Every Life is amazing though. Christian, family owned company and they use their funds to support not only their pregnant and adopting employees, but also pregnant women in crisis across the country. You can buy a Buy for a Cause bundle on their website and that will send diapers and wipes, tools and resources to pregnancy centers so they can make

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to say that America does have a Christian foundation. We played a clip, I think last week at the end of the episode, just talking about how often God was mentioned in the founding documents. And someone tried to say, oh, it was only four times. Well, four times is a lot. Four times is actually a lot. They were acknowledging that we were created by God endowed with certain inalienable rights. That's the basis for all of this, and that they looked to the Hebrew Bible, to the Old Testament, and the New Testament, but to see the principles of justice, not to create a theocracy, but to say, okay, there is a moral lawgiver, as C.S. Lewis would call him. And we have to look to him to decide what is just and what's not, what's right and what's wrong,

while also giving the maximum freedom possible so that this can be a government of the people. for the people and by the people. And we've fallen a lot since then. But that's why we have that. I believe it's, is it John Adams who said that our constitution was made or our form of government was made for a moral and religious people? It's really not adequate for any other kind of people, which is part of why we're having so much trouble today. So Charlie was very adamant about that. And he was right about that. The state charters in the very beginning, in order to hold public office. Like you had to be a Protestant Christian

except for, I think, in one colony. That was a requirement. So people who say that this was not a Christian country, that we shouldn't interweave Christianity in politics, they're just wrong. Of course we should. Here's him arguing some of that. Top five.

John Adams seamlessly said, the Constitution was only written for a moral and religious people. It was wholly inadequate for the people of any other. The body politic of America was so Christian and was so Protestant that our form and structure of government was built for the people that believed in Christ our Lord.

One of the reasons we're living through a constitutional crisis is that we no longer have a Christian nation, but we have a Christian form of government, and they're incompatible. Okay, I didn't actually know that that clip was going to say exactly what I had just said, but obviously he's absolutely right. Charlie didn't believe in a state church. Of course, none of us do over here, by the way, but believed that policy should be influenced by Christian doctrine, just like you, atheists. progressive, you believe that the government should be influenced by your atheist progressive

doctrines. Well, we believe that we've got better doctrines and we do. SOT 6. If a kid is sitting in a desk and another kid and he hits the other kid, should the teacher say that's wrong? Yes. Teachers teaching morals. If the kid goes and steals his lunch, is it for the teacher to say don't steal? If the kid goes around and starts harassing and bullying another kid, should the teachers say don't do that. But what about those two commandments? No, hold on. I'm going to get there. The teacher. of course should come and say, stop it, don't do that, because the teacher's

appealing to a moral order. We think that moral order should be in every classroom, the Ten Commandments. So good. So good. He also would speak out against, like, left-wing Christianity

in a lot of ways. And that was probably what he and I talked about the most, both in his podcast, and whenever I would do something about, like, a ministry or something that has gone, woke, I would always get a text from Charlie saying, oh, this is an awesome podcast. Like, come on my show and let's talk about it. And that was certainly true when we were both going against the He Gets Us campaign. Here's SOTE.

These ridiculous television advertisements that I keep on saying, he gets us. That is the most narcissistic Christian ad ever. No, I'm sorry. They'll be very clear. He doesn't like get you when you're watching pornography. He doesn't get you when you're going out drinking until 2 a.m. and not taking care of your kids. He doesn't get you when you're in the abortion clinic and you're driving the girl that you had premarital sex with. No, instead, he saves you from your sin and you must bring yourself to repentance in front of the Lord of the heavens and the earth. And again, this ridiculous advertisement, he gets us. That's everything wrong with American Christianity. So good. So very different than third wayism. But this is why. This is why he had the approach that he did. Here's not nine.

spiritual problems manifest themselves into cultural problems that then become political problems. So it's kind of a three-pronged issue, but of course at the core it's spiritual. And so my critics say, oh, Charlie, you know, politics, waste of time, you should only talk about the gospel. The gospel is the most important thing, but you know how many people we have led to Christ by first talking politics? Because the law is a school teacher to Christ, as it says in Galatians 3, the law can show you towards Christ. It's a guardian of Christ's message. And I see this happen every day on campuses. And so there's something very profound happening.

It's actually accelerating. It's not slowing down. Young men are becoming more and more conservative. They're more and more hungry and thirsty to get involved in the local church. Okay. So whether or not you agree with everything that Charlie said, I think that we can sufficiently say that Charlie's approach to things did not turn people away from Christ, has not created this crisis of people.

wanting to like walk away from church. But that actually his approach was very appealing to a lot of people. And that this idea that if you're a conservative and you support Donald Trump, that you are inherently repugnant to a non-believer, it is not true. And by the way, a non-believer probably is going to be a little offended by things you say as a Christian. This idea that we have to be completely palatable to the world in order to kind of like invite them in. It's like saying, oh, if I give my kid cookies first, then maybe he'll want the vegetables later. I just don't think that that tactic is as effective as people think it is.

And it just ends up, you end up being the parent that only gives cookies. And you never actually give the nourishing, life-changing stuff that is good for someone. And I think that answers the question of why the third wayism and the overemphasis on winsomeness and tone policing ends up leading people to compromise. Because you are so concerned with how the world hears you and how the world perceives you, not remembering that the aroma of Christ, that Christ himself and the gospel is an aroma to those of us who know him and love him and is a stench of death to people who are dying. and it's only through regeneration of the Holy Spirit that someone can be convicted and wake up and say, hang on, that actually smells good. Hang on, I actually do want the vegetables that are good for me. And that's what the Holy Spirit does.

Now, that to say, and this is what we're about to get into in this last segment, not everyone is called to the same thing. Not everyone is called to the same method, to the same tone, to the same kind of delivery, to the same platform, to the same region, to the same kind of people. And there may be different methods and different tactics that are more effective for one group of people at one certain time and more effective for another group of people at another time. At the same time, I don't think it's relative. I think we can declare a winner at this time in this stage. So we'll get into that in just a second.

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Okay. So here's what I think about all of this. And I probably have made it pretty clear. And those of you who are familiar with me know that I'm in the Charlie Kirk camp. That I wasn't exactly like Charlie Kirk. I would say that because I'm a woman, because I have a female audience, because of my genuine personality, he would have a more brash way of saying things. was never offended by it. I love it. Like I love listening to that kind of stuff. Never hedges, never caveats, never compromises. I love that kind of thing. Now, I would say I'm a little softer. And I probably do add some caveats, maybe sometimes necessarily, maybe sometimes unnecessarily more than he did. But I have a different calling. I have a different platform.

All of us are called to take risks for the gospel. All of us are called to be bold for our faith. all of us are called to be apologists and evangelists and have a reason for the hope that we have. All of us are called to put everything in our lives, our entire worldview under the submission of Christ. But not all of us are called to minister to the same people. Not all of us have the same platform. And so how you are bold for the gospel, the risks that God asks you to take for the gospel may not be touring the country speaking as as clearly and incisively as possible to hundreds of

thousands of college students and then getting killed for saying things that are biblically true. That might not be your calling. That might not be your fate. You may be a stay-at-home mom and God has called you to spend every hour of every day loving your literal neighbors around you and serving and homeschooling your kids, whatever that looks like, you are called to do that with boldness and joy. That means you might not always have the same tone as Charlie Kirk. You might not always say the same things.

You evangelizing directly to your Indian Hindu neighbor is not probably going to be you setting up like a table in their front yard saying, change my mind. Hindu is pagan. Like it's probably not going to look like. like that. And so my point is that it is okay for people to have a different tone and a different way of evangelizing to different kinds of people at different times. So when you have Tim Keller, who is an erudite intellectual, who is called to, was called to the heart of Manhattan that is largely hostile to Christianity, that is very ethnically diverse,

very politically progressive. And he is called to bring clarity from the gospel into that world. How he does things, how he writes, how he talks, the tone and posture and disposition that he uses is going to be different than Charlie Kirk. And in principle, I would say that that's okay. In principle, I would say that that is fine. That a pastor who is called to be a pastor in, I don't know, the heart of Oklahoma or rural Kansas or, you know, the suburbs of Dallas, Texas, it's going to look different than the pastor who is called in Portland or in Sacramento or the heart of San Francisco posturally, but not positionally. So the posture may be different, but the positions should not be different. And here's where I have a problem with third wayism. It's not how Tim Keller

talked. It's not that he wasn't persuasive in his own way or that he didn't add value. I think he did. But for whatever reason, the posture that he emphasized of being so focused on winning over a dying culture and talking like them and trying to understand every single position that they have before presenting them with the truth leads to a positional difference. It seems not in every case, maybe not even with Tim Keller in every case. But when we look at people like Francis Collins, When we look at Curtis Chang and when we look at David French and we look at Russell Moore, it's not just that their posture on politics and evangelism has changed. Their positions have changed on things like gender and race.

And certainly when it comes to the role of the government and the vaccine and all of that, I mean, you've got like a constitutional lawyer in David French. I mean, yes, their positions have changed. And so when a posture continually leads to compromise, when a tactic continually leads to softening of the positions of the, the Bible that are so clear in scripture that there's really no nuance on, then that's when things become a problem. I think the question is, is that approach, is that posture appropriate for this time? Appropriate for the moment we're in. Maybe it was exactly what was right in certain

parts of the country at a certain time. But when it comes to the global Christian church in the moment that we're in, in general, I don't think third wayism is the thing that's effective. Because again, we cannot deny whether you like Charlie or not the incredible impact that his words and his boldness for the gospel, his clarity in his speech has had over the past two weeks on millions and millions of people. And look, sometimes people are going to be turned off. People are going to be turned off by your politics. People are going to be turned off by your stance on gender. That doesn't make you wrong. Do not measure your obedience. Do not measure your effectiveness by the world's reaction to you. Measure your obedience. Measure your effectiveness by God's approval of you. And God's approval of you

is found one in Christ who becomes our righteousness. So when he looks at us, he doesn't look at our inaptitude. He looks at Christ's perfection, but also our obedience to his commands, our alignment with his word. You know, we've talked about so many times. Last thing that Charlie and I talked about face to face was this idea that so many people have that they're actually nicer than God, that they are more compassionate than God. And if they kind of ignore or apologize or caveat what God's word truly says about marriage and gender and life inside the womb, then maybe more people will come to the gospel. But as Rosaria Butterfield says, you are not going to win people to the cross by condoning or compromising on the things that Christ died for or died to save them from.

And so, again, not everyone has the same platform, but if I were to declare a winner in this moment, I would say absolute clarity and boldness completely unashamed is the way to go in this moment. That does not mean we forsake love. That doesn't mean we forsake. We forsake. gentleness, that doesn't mean we should be a jerk. That doesn't mean we should be brash. There is a way to be persuasive, to be gentle without compromising at all. So let me go through a few of the questions that we asked earlier and tell you my thoughts on them. Is there a biblical and unbiblical way to discuss politics as a Christian? I say that our politics should be a product of, not a prerequisite for our salvation. Where I think things get idolatrous is when you won't criticize your side.

when you won't criticize your guy, when you won't ever say that they're doing something unbiblical or wrong because you are so tied to that political affiliation, that's when things become idolatrous, you're trusting in princes and horses and not in the Lord. But people say, yeah, well, you should be able to criticize conservatives and criticize Democrats. And that approach, which was Keller's approach, that we should be adopting left and right positions is just not true. If you are abiding by scripture, you are going to be far too conservative. conservative for both sides. You're not going to adopt anything on the left. You're just not. There's

nothing that the left gets right. There's nothing that the modern democratic party purports or proposes that we as Christian should be like, yeah, you know what? I think that's right. Not how they treat the poor, not how they address racism, not how they address immigration. It's not more compassionate. It's not more loving. It's not kinder. No, it actually all leads to destruction for the very people that they're trying to help and all of us. us over there, over on the other side of it. So no. I would say we are far more conservative than both the left and the right. So I think that's where our critique should come from as a Christian and we should be willing to critique all the time. Should we at any point forego or minimize our political views

in order to evangelize? On a micro level, yes, on a macro level, no. On a micro level, in our conversations, we have to know when to call it quits. We have to know when there is a time in a place for a debate and when there is a time for reconciliation. I had many moments like that in 2020. where I really disagreed with what my friend was posting about Black Lives Matter. And we discussed it and then we let things lie. And we're still friends. And we still talk. And we still share the same values.

I don't know if we agree on all of those things. And I'm not afraid to push back again if things come up or just to say what is true. But it was important for me to maintain those friendships and it still is. As far as it depends on you make peace with everyone. But we should never lie. And we should never minimize sin. And we should never condone or ignore objective evil. So even if on the micro level, we are putting politics aside for Thanksgiving or for the

conversation or for the friendship, that's fine. But your life should never contradict what your biblical worldview is. Okay, does tone matter? Yes. And no. Banana pudding versus banana soup. Which one do you want? Banana pudding sounds awesome.

I can eat a whole bowl of banana pudding right now. Banana soup sounds terrible. makes me want to throw up. So texture matters. It might be the exact same ingredients. You just add a little more water and it becomes banana soup. Nobody wants that. But they're the same essential components. But how it goes down, how you taste it actually matters, right? The same is true of tone. What you're saying might be true. But your tone could actually affect how someone hears you. at the same time, you can't have an over emphasis on this because what sounds super gentle and super sweet to some people might sound really abrasive to someone else. And what they actually probably are rejecting is not your tone of voice, but what you're actually saying.

So yes and no. Yes, we should care about tone. No, we shouldn't be tone policing people. And we shouldn't be like, oh, well, I don't care about what you said. It's how you said it. Well, just think for a second. Maybe you're just convicted. And maybe you should just think about what they're saying.

I certainly don't have perfect tone at all. There are definitely times where I've been sarcastic and I shouldn't have been. But it's funny how I will say something and then I'll get, you know, five comments being like, wow, you said that was so much gentleness and kindness and patience. And then, you know, five other people being like, that was the rudest thing that I've ever heard in my life. So don't have an overemphasis on that. Okay.

Okay. Last question before we close out. Why does Charlie's approach typically lead people to the right? Why does Tim Keller's tactic typically lead people to the left? Over emphasis on winsomeness leads to compromise. Over emphasis on truth telling could lead to legalism. Right? We like order. We like structure. Left prices, individualism and libertinism and outsourcing their compassion to the government. I'm personally more concerned about compromise in our day and age than legalism. But remember, legalism to compromise is not a spectrum. It's a circle. So legalism and compromise are, really, really close. The Pharisees were guilty of both. Because they were so legalistic and they only looked at the surface of things and not the heart of God underneath them, they ended up compromising on God's principles. And John 8, when the woman is caught in adultery, all these people want to stone her. People think that that's Jesus just giving mercy. It's not just Jesus giving mercy. It's Jesus abiding

by the law. Because those people weren't just legalistic. They weren't following the law. The law says that she could only be condemned in the presence of two to three eyewitnesses. Well, we didn't have that. law also said that the man who was committing to adultery also had to be stoned. So Jesus was actually giving mercy while also saying, y'all aren't even abiding by the law right now. So legalism, compromise, actually go hand in hand and we should avoid both. Yes, by walking the way of Christ, but that looks like love inextricably intertwined with the truth and we should live and represent that boldly in every sphere that God has called us to. All right, that's all we got time for today. We will be back here on Friday.