Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1251 | ‘Doesn't Give Martyr’: A Response to Jackie Hill Perry’s Charlie Kirk Comments

Starting point is 00:00:00 Was Charlie Kirk truly a martyr? Some Christians think he wasn't, and in fact, they believe that his words weren't giving martyr. We'll respond to that today and look at what the Bible says. Also, Pope Leo has some choice words about those who are pro-death penalty while also being pro-life. Surprise, surprise. I also have some choice words for the Pope. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use code alia. Check out. That's goodranjors.com. Code Allie. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Wednesday. Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far. Okay, many of you sent me a clip from a podcast called With the Perry's, and this is Jackie Hill Perry.

Starting point is 00:00:55 She is a Christian author. She wrote a book called Gay Girl, Good God. It's a really incredible book. She's got an amazing testimony. I've talked many times about the differences in political opinion and theology that we have. we probably agree on a ton of stuff. And yet in 2020, our differences were highlighted, at least to me, when it comes to race and social and so-called racial justice. And unfortunately, she blocked me on social media. I'd never even talk to her directly or talked badly about her, but have talked about our differences and disagreements. And so when many of you sent me this clip about Charlie Kirk and about what some people call Christian National, and wanted me to respond. I'm happy to do so. I'm not trying to aggravate the differences that we already have or any like anger that may already be there. Like I don't feel

Starting point is 00:01:55 angry, but I continue to disagree with her perspective and the way she approaches topics like this. But I also wasn't necessarily surprised about how this conversation went down. Their episode was titled Neither Blue nor Red, being a disciple in a culture war. And they were talking about Charlie's death. And I just want to say, like, this is a clip that they posted on social media. This is not me extracting something, intentionally decontextualizing anything. This is a clip that they themselves posted. Here's a two. I don't want to reword your language, but I also want to add to your language. Help me. Be my helper. No, to say not only grieving in a way that's distinct, but also

Starting point is 00:02:38 grieving or they misunderstand why don't you think he's a martyr? And it's like because I heard what he said. Yeah. And so it's not that I don't appreciate his stances on abortion, on sexuality, on marriage. Yes. But it's also I hear other things alongside that that don't give martyr. Okay. So he didn't give martyr in some of the things he said. And I will say that there is another part of that clip. You can go look at it on social media. We can't play the entirety of it on this podcast, but we didn't take out anything that was relevant. The other part was mostly about Christian nationalism. So there's a few things I would say to that. Yes, Charlie is going to seem to some people harsh because of how unwaveringly clear he was. When it comes to things

Starting point is 00:03:28 like abortion, I know she said she appreciated his stance, but when Roe was overturned, when the Dobbs' decision was published, I remember a lot of people were at. asking Jackie Hill Perry to comment on that and to say something about that. And she made a joke about it when people asked her, you know, what do you think about Roe? And she said, oh, like, salmon Roe. And I believe that she believes in the sanctity of unborn life, of course, as a Christian. But she has also claimed that that is a very nuanced topic. So that tells me a lot about how she approaches issues that is very different from how Charlie approached issues, how I approach issues that might lead to that kind of gap in understanding there or any kind of brashness

Starting point is 00:04:12 that she might perceive from Charlie, which it was actually just strength and clarity. But I want to get to the bigger point here, which is really important. And that is about martyrdom. Was Charlie a martyr? She says that other things that he said didn't give martyr. And I take issue with how that is phrased because that's such a like a flippant way to be talking about the assassination of a brother in Christ. But here is the first question I would ask, and that is what other things? What specifically? Like, give me the details. If we're talking

Starting point is 00:04:45 about whether a brother was martyred or not, like I want to know specifically what were the things that he said that weren't quote unquote giving martyr. And then we have to get into what is actually a martyr? What does the Bible say that a martyr is? When we look at the etymology of martyrdom and that word, what does it actually mean? Is a martyr someone who only says things we agree with? Is a martyr someone who never says things that are offensive? Is a martyr someone that has to be perfect and totally sinless? Is that how we define martyr? Because it seems to me from that conversation that that is how they're defining it. Charlie Kirk said things that they don't agree with. I'm still not exactly sure what. Or that maybe they deemed offensive or they

Starting point is 00:05:32 deemed unchristlike and so he wasn't a martyr. But I think when we dig into what biblically a martyr actually is, we get a different answer. So let's look at the definition. It means one, a martyr is one who bears testimony to faith, one who willingly suffers death rather than surrender his or her religious faith, especially their Christian beliefs. When we look into the Greek term Martis, so when we look at the etymology, the study of this word, martyrs literally means witness.

Starting point is 00:06:07 So a witness to the truth. And what does witness mean? It means someone who attests to a fact, to an event from personal knowledge. So one who so testifies. Now what does testify mean to affirm the truth of? So knowing these things and looking into, not only this definition, but the words into the definition in the definition, what is a martyr,

Starting point is 00:06:31 a person who endures death because they affirm to the truth of Christianity, someone who is placed on the witness stand and made to testify to the truth of the gospel and then executed for doing so. Now when we look at this definition, what is not the definition of a martyr? What is not the definition of a martyr is someone who always agrees with us, someone who never offends us, someone who is sinless, only Jesus was sinless, someone whose words meet our definition of gentle or loving or kind, it is also not someone who never talked about politics or who voted a certain way. That's not how we define martyrdom, not when we look at the original root of the word, and also not when we look at scripture. So let's look at some martyrs in scripture.

Starting point is 00:07:16 Let's look at John the Baptist and let's look at Stephen. Let's look at their words, their attitude, people's response to them and then weigh whether or not they were a martyr either by this podcast definition of what a martyr is and the actual definition of what a martyr is. But first, let me remind you guys, Share the Arrows is coming up. Share the Arrows is happening on Saturday. So if you want a women's conference that is not fluff, that's not self-esteem, that's not just about making you feel better about yourself, that is not like surface level theology. If you want to be challenged with the Word of God, if you want to become a better

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Starting point is 00:10:02 Okay, let's first look at John the Baptist. John the Baptist, if you don't know, cousin of Jesus. He made the way for Jesus, prepared the way for Jesus. He preached repentance, baptism. And now Herod, the ruler at the time, imprisoned John the Baptist. And not primarily or explicitly for preaching the gospel, but because John was calling out Herod's sin of marrying his own brother's wife, Herodius, while his brother, Philip, was still alive.

Starting point is 00:10:29 And Herodius, this incestuous woman, convinced her daughter to seduce Herod, so lots of depravity going on here, and convinced Herod to behead John the Baptist. Herodius didn't like being called out for her sin, so she exploited her daughter sexually in order to seduce her husband to execute John the Baptist, really disgusting, but Herod did it. Executed John the Baptist, beheaded him, presented his head on a platter to Herodius. So John the Baptist was brutally executed, not explicitly for preaching on repentus, not explicitly for baptism, we're talking about Jesus.

Starting point is 00:11:08 He was beheaded because he defended the sanctity of marriage. It was for calling out the sin of the people in charge. He offended people because he said what you're doing is not in alignment with what God calls good and true. Now, that is all intertwined with biblical truth, with God's truth, with the gospel that he was preaching, but primarily and explicitly. He was executed for calling out sin for standing up for the sanctity of marriage. Now, he was probably pretty brash when he did it. In fact, if you look at his life and you look at some of the things he said, some people today would probably call that mean. Some people today would maybe say he had an unnecessary

Starting point is 00:11:50 fairly harsh tone. Is this still giving martyr? Was John the Baptist perfect? No, he wasn't perfect. He was making the way for the perfect one, which was Jesus Christ. He was executed for saying what was biblically true. Is that giving martyr? And then we've got Stephen. And Stephen full of grace and power was doing great wonders and signs among the people. Many religious people rose up and disputed with Stephen, but they could not withstand the wisdom and the spirit with which he was speaking. And they stirred up the people and the elders and the scribes. And they came upon him and seized him and brought him before the council. And they set up false witnesses who said, this man never ceases to speak words against the holy place in the law. And then they also noticed,

Starting point is 00:12:31 this is verse 15, that his face was like that of an angel. I always just think that's an interesting part. I'm not trying to directly compare that with anyone. I just think that that's interesting, that he was so calm in the face of these accusations. So, So the high priest at the time asked Stephen to defend himself. And then Stephen becomes a witness testifying to the truth that he knows, the truth of the gospel. And in so doing, he decides to this Jewish audience to go all the way back to Abraham. He goes through the history of the Jewish people, what God had done for them and how the Jewish people in general rebelled. Then he says this to these Jewish leaders in the audience, who are chomping at the bit to call him a blasphemer.

Starting point is 00:13:13 He says, you stiff-necked people, uncircumcumcised. in heart and ears. Now that would be a big deal to say since circumcision was a sign of the Jewish people, of their set apartness, of their holiness. And yet he says, basically, you might be circumcised in that way, but you're uncircumcised in heart and ears. You always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you, Stephen said. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the righteous one whom you have now betrayed and murdered, and you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it. Now they heard these things, and the Bible says they were enraged. They ground their teeth at him,

Starting point is 00:13:54 but he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God. And Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Versus 54, 55, behold, I see the heavens open and the son of man standing at the right hand of God. Oh my goodness. They hated that. But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him. And then Stephen says, with his dying, do not hold this sin against them. Now, I'm not even making a direct comparison here. I'm not saying that Charlie was saying these exact words when he died. I'm not saying that Charlie is the exact same as John the Baptist, but I'm looking at the principle of martyrdom here. We have people who today might be criticized for saying things that were considered offensive, might have been criticized

Starting point is 00:14:39 for their tone. You have some people, I'm not even saying the people in this podcast that were responding to, but I've seen similar sentiments in other places where people are like, well, you know, he was a little harsh. Well, he said something that was kind of racially insensitive. And I could just see those people back then when Stephen was martyred being like, well, he didn't have to call him a stiff-necked people. He kind of went below the belt there. He could have been a little bit nicer. He could have been a little bit, I don't know, more winsome, more persuasive. John the Baptist didn't have to go after his marriage. I mean, really?

Starting point is 00:15:14 Like, if you're going to preach the gospel, at least be nice about, like, you could see. And again, I'm not saying that this conversation we're responding to is saying exactly that, but I just want to speak to a lot of the sentiment that I've seen out there of people saying, well, Charlie's not a martyr because, you know, whatever he said that we didn't like. And I just wonder if you would have had the same response to these people, the martyrs of the Bible. Maybe if they had just talked more about love. Maybe if they had just never gotten into these controversial issues, then maybe they wouldn't have been killed. And yet Stephen is described as full of grace and power.

Starting point is 00:15:49 Jesus is described in John 1 as full of grace and truth. These are descriptors that we would want. Think about being called full of grace. Mary, full of grace. And yet these people were completely unwavering in the truth. And John the Baptist and Stephen completely unabashed in calling out sin. I think there are so many lessons for us. us to learn there. But again, going back to what a martyr is not. Martyr is not someone who's

Starting point is 00:16:17 perfect. He's not someone who never talks about politics. He's not someone who never offends you. Stephen and John the Baptist may have said a lot of things that were offensive. They probably said things that were true and untrue. But they were killed because they spoke the truth and they called out sin and people didn't like it. Charlie wasn't killed because he called Kamala Harris an idiot. he wasn't killed because he said that Joy Reid didn't have the brain power to get the job that she has. And by the way, I think Jesus has much harsher words for people like Kamala Harris and Joy Reed, for other reasons for the state of their heart and for the evil that they perpetuate and promote. Far more offensive-seeming things than that.

Starting point is 00:17:01 Charlie wasn't killed because he criticized DEI. He wasn't killed because he liked Trump. Charlie was killed essentially for repeating what the Bible has to say about gender and marriage, sex, and most of all, the gospel. And I just want to say that, like, if that happened to anyone that I disagree with on, like, race and social justice and things like that, but they're Christians. They're preaching the gospel. They're saying what is true about gender and sexuality and marriage. And they got killed in the midst of doing that. I would not be quibbling on a podcast three weeks later about whether or not they're martyred.

Starting point is 00:17:39 I just wouldn't. It's not the right thing to do. It's not what you do to the body of Christ. It's not what you do as a human being. And I just want to say, too, like this is the last point that I want to make on this because I got some messages from people saying, well, you know, at least they're not celebrating. At least they, in this podcast conversation, said, you know, we shouldn't be. celebrating the death of an image bearer of God. And they did. I heard that. I listened to that. And they said they were sad to see people cheering in their timeline, cheering in comment sections.

Starting point is 00:18:17 And I think people appreciated that they didn't do that, that they said it's always tragic, you know, when someone dies. And for me, I just don't have any congratulations to give on that. That's bare minimum human decency. That is bare minimum compassion. that we expect from even non-believers, okay? Like, that's not power of the Holy Spirit grace, okay? That is like because we have all been given the common grace of being human, that we can access not being absolute monsters by cheering on someone's death. So you don't get an add-a-boy from me for not cheering on the slaughter of a human being.

Starting point is 00:18:58 Again, that is bare minimum. Bernie Sanders gave a better statement than this. Bernie Sanders is an atheist. His statement after Charlie Kirk was murdered was more respectful than this. Okay, so like I just don't have like a whole lot of hurrah. Like that's awesome for you. Again, bare minimum, bare minimum human decency. All right, I've got more to say on this.

Starting point is 00:19:20 Let me go ahead and pause. Tell you about our next sponsor for the day. It's Fellowship Home Loans. And I'm just so thankful for the companies that are a part of my show that offer true Christian services. and that's what I love about fellowship home loans, that they're doing their business, not just by the book, but by the book. They care about integrity. They care about Christian values.

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Starting point is 00:21:00 politics. But I did appreciate him being willing to come on. And I do think that in a lot of ways, like, I do think that they really mean well. But I do wonder, after George Floyd died, and I hate to even make this comparison, but as we're about to get into, this comparison is being made. After George Floyd died, if I had come on here three weeks later and be like, you know what, just like in the name of nuance, you need to understand why I don't care about that death as much as like the rest of you guys do.

Starting point is 00:21:30 because that's in other parts of this podcast, this is what they're saying. Like you need to understand like why we didn't relate to his death as much as, you know, some of you white conservatives out there doing. I'm paraphrasing there. And if someone had three weeks after George Floyd died, said, okay, y'all just need to understand that like I don't care about this as much and I don't think this is as big of a deal because I didn't like him. And let me just remind you three weeks after his death of what a horrible.

Starting point is 00:22:00 horrible person he was and that you guys don't need to be lionizing him in any way. And by the way, George Floyd was actually a horrible person. But no one was even willing to say anything negative about George Floyd for at least a year after he died for fear of backlash and just to try to be sensitive to the situation. I think there was a lot more sensitivity when George Floyd, a criminal, died than when Charlie Kirk was assassinated for St. saying things true. When Charlie Kirk is assassinated for saying true things, rather, there's all of a sudden there's this nuance. Well, we just need to really talk about how he was possibly a racist. We need to really talk about like all the things he possibly did wrong. But if you tried to add

Starting point is 00:22:44 nuance or another layer to the conversation in the immediate aftermath of what happened to George Floyd, even saying things as I did, which got me so much pushback at the time, oh, guys, like, I don't think that we should be like looting. I don't think that we should be burning down cities and essentially punishing people who did nothing wrong because of the actions of a police officer over there. Like that is probably not good. And actually, I don't think that's understandable. I don't think that's justified. I actually think that's just sin. And there's no reason for Christians to excuse it. All of that was true. And I even like tried to temper that as much as I possibly could to be as sensitive to the situation as I'm as much as I possibly could

Starting point is 00:23:25 at the time. And still so much blowback. And yet, after a five, of two gets brutally murdered by someone who hated him because of the true things he said, oh, let's just talk about all of the things that offended us that Charlie Kirk said that weren't giving martyr. I just, I think that's strange. I think it's strange how the standard is so different. And in the Atlantic, we've got someone whose name is Thomas Chatterton Williams, who I think is probably like a moderate guy. He probably typically is center left. And you can tell me if I'm getting that wrong. He published an article that is titled, The Other Martyr, Maga has found its George Floyd. The article argues that after George Floyd's death in 2020, the left turned

Starting point is 00:24:10 him into a saint-like figure to push their goals. And now the MAGA right is doing the same with Charlie Kirk's assassination, using his name to promote their agenda and attack opponents. So he's basically saying both sides are the same. The left lionized George Floyd after he died to push their political goals. and now the right is doing the same. So he does criticize the left. So I'm corrected in my assessment. He is a guy who tries to be moderate. He points out that in the summer of 2020, protests were happening around the world.

Starting point is 00:24:40 He doesn't actually talk about the rioting and violence. And that white liberals were gathering to repent of their white privilege with quasi-religious fervor. That part is true. He also uses the example of Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer, taking a knee in the capital while wearing kinty cloth, which was. What a time! Like what was happening? They're wearing like African garb and like kneeling in the capital. It was so crazy. He writes for many on the left, Floyd's asphyxiation turned a flawed and desperate man into a Christ figure, someone who bore the weight of the world's failing and is so doing clear to path to fix them, he wrote. And of course, that was true at the time. A lot of people were doing that. But then he says the right is doing the same thing, that it's a mirror image of what happened with George Floyd. He said, the right is using Charlie Kirk's name to. advance illiberal aims and silence opponents. He uses the example of Arena Zarutka, the woman, this was right before Charlie was murdered. I thought that was going to be the saddest thing I talked about that week. And then, of course, Charlie was assassinated right after. She was the woman

Starting point is 00:25:42 who was brutally murdered on a train in Charlotte, North Carolina, by a career criminal. And he said that we're using that, that we were looking for a martyr. We were ready to position Zeruska as a martyr, but then Charlie Kirk's murder overshadowed her story. He refers to the efforts to honor Charlie Kirk as canonization. For example, Trump ordering flags to be lowered at half staff, um, some Andrew Colvitt referring to the bullet not leaving Charlie's body and killing someone else as a miracle. He also points out a difference between today in 2020 and that back then, um, it was only social media mobs calling to cancel George Floyd detractors, but recently figures like J.D. Vance and, uh, representative Randy Fine, Brendan Carr, the Trump appointed chair of the

Starting point is 00:26:23 FCC have bolstered support for reporting and firing people who have celebrated Charlie Kirk's death. He concluded saying today, like five years ago, a controversial man has been transformed overnight into a one-dimensional state marshaled in a culture war that precludes measured thought. Once again, Americans are being asked to genuflect before an idol. He says, Kirk has been reduced to slogans and half-truths that obscure the real tragedy of his death. But if Americans are to learn anything valuable from the deceased, both sides will need to find the courage to reject. such opportunism. There are many problems, of course, with this line of thinking. I can appreciate his efforts to be fair. However, when you both side something, you end up minimizing the real objective differences between good and evil. And that, of course, is what is going on here.

Starting point is 00:27:16 You've got on one side, you've got George Floyd, who actually was a career criminal. I'm not saying that if he had been murdered, that that murder was justified. That's not what I'm saying. But when you're talking about someone that shouldn't be lionized, that shouldn't be canonized as a saint, I mean, he was arrested multiple times for drug possession. He was arrested in 2007 for aggravated robbery with a deadly weapon, a home invasion. He allegedly held his pregnant girlfriend at gunpoint and pointed the gun directly at her unborn child in her womb. He had multiple other arrests from 1997 to 2019. And of course,

Starting point is 00:27:58 there is debate about how he actually died. He had fatal levels of fentanyl in his system. He was already saying, Mama, Mama before he died. It's actually also reported that that was the nickname that he gave to his girlfriend and was not actually calling out for his mother. Also, when you look at other angles of how George Floyd died, it doesn't look like the police officer was leaning on his neck but was actually leaning on his back. And so there is actually much debate about how George Floyd died. Now, you can still say, even knowing those things that you think that he was mistreated, you can even try to deduce that he was being mistreated because of the color of his skin. But we don't actually have any evidence of that. Like, we don't have any

Starting point is 00:28:39 evidence that George Floyd was mistreated based on the color of his skin or that there was some racism that was at play in this situation. We can still acknowledge the tragedy that someone died, the tragedy in a lot of ways of his life. But it wasn't his skin color that put him in that particular situation as far as we know. And yet it was immediately assumed what the motive was. And then that motive was assigned not only to Derek Chauvin, but to police in general and then to white people in general, and then to Trump voters in general, and then to even evangelicals in general, like with no connection whatsoever. And all of these corporations and these institutions and these churches all bowed down at the altar of BLM, posted the black square,

Starting point is 00:29:28 repeated the BLM mantras. No one dared criticize the movement for a long time. I mean, some of us did. But even then, it was in the most gentle way that we possibly could because it was very obvious where the power was shifting at the time. And I'm not even talking about white versus black. I'm talking about the power was shifting towards the left. And this was also in a time of COVID when everyone was scared anyway. And all of this, of course, led to Joe Biden winning in November. And so all of this was happening. George Floyd was absolutely hailed as some kind of messianic figure by so many. And people were not only changing policy and pushing for policy change in his name, but they were also rioting in his name. There were.

Starting point is 00:30:16 also murdering in his name. They were looting in his name. There was arson in his name. Okay, that's what we saw. We saw violence and we saw chaos and we saw many Christians excusing that violence and chaos in the wake of George Floyd's death based on a completely unproven narrative that systemic racism caused his unfair death. Okay. So that was George Floyd. That was the aftermath of George Floyd. That looks nothing like Charlie Kirk or the aftermath of Charlie Kirk. And I'll get to this in a second, but Victor Davis-Hanson, historian, we've had him on this show. He looks at this comparison and just how ridiculous it is, and we'll play that in just a second. Let me pause first, tell you about our next sponsor for the day.

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Starting point is 00:32:22 Here's Sot 1. Number one, they say this is the Conservatives' George Floyd moment. It is not a George Floyd moment. After the death of George Floyd, Antifa and BLM led five months of violent protests. 35 people killed, 1,500 police officers injured, historic church, torch. police precinct torch, federal courthouse, torch, $2 billion of property damage, arson, looting violence. Charlie Kirk was not anything like George Floyd. There was nothing at all similar. Well, of course not, because Charlie Kirk was a Christian, he was a husband, and he was a father,

Starting point is 00:33:05 and he traveled the world preaching the gospel. Yes, he talked about politics. Yes, he talked about culture, but he was of the belief just as I am, that all of our political and cultural beliefs should flow from our belief in the gospel, flow from our belief in the authority of the Word of God. And because we're finite, fallible people, yes, we are going to get that wrong. All of us have the potential to get those things wrong. But that was his conviction. That is what he preached. He's nothing like George Floyd. And the aftermath of George Floyd dying when he was almost overdosing or perhaps did overdose on fentanyl, and Charlie Kirk being assassinated, supposedly by some kind of pro-trans, anti-fascist left-wing activist, as he just finished arguing

Starting point is 00:33:55 for the authority and the sufficiency of scripture. Not only are the crimes different, the aftermath is different. We had violence. After George Floyd, we had vigils after Charlie Kirk. No police officer is scared for his life after Charlie Kirk. died, like we don't see any retaliation. We don't see any vigilanteism. We don't see any vengeance. No one has been murdered in the wake of Charlie Kirk. Instead, you see revival. You see people going to church more. You see people praying more. Another thing that I heard in that podcast earlier was, oh, I saw all these people in my timeline on social media cheering when Charlie Kirk died and, you know, I had to tell people, let's not cheer. I'm like, I've never had to tell my audience not to cheer when someone they disagrees with

Starting point is 00:34:39 dies. Like I've never had to chastise them in that way. When Ruth Bader Ginsburg died, I and a bunch of other conservatives said, you know, that was a monumental life and like, may God be with her family. That's what you say when someone dies who you didn't agree with. And, you know, maybe you'll pray for their family, but you don't quibble about whether or not you felt like he was an offensive racist. But that's what we see from the left versus the rights. We see a bunch of chaos and division and violence from the left when their guy dies. And then when our legitimate, like hero in a lot of ways, dies, you see people preaching the gospel, believing the gospel, getting baptized. My DMs are filled with people who are saying, I reconciled with my dad. I reconciled with my friend. I'm going back to church. I just open the Bible for the first time. I have so many people asking me for help and like starting out becoming a Christian. I saw the opposite after George Floyd. It was like, I don't talk to my dad anymore. I'm not talking to my friend anymore. I'm no longer connected to that person because of their reaction or like what they, they weren't

Starting point is 00:35:54 sufficient and like denouncing their white privilege. A tree is known by its fruit. Okay? A tree is known by its fruit. Pastor Virgil Walker of G3 Ministries, he's been on this show as well. he wrote a good article for Blaze Media just contrasting the reaction to George Floyd versus versus Charlie Kirk. And he said, you know, Kirk's death was met with prayer and gospel proclamation and it reflects the spirit of God. While riots after George Floyd's death reflect a destructive spirit of rage, masquerading as justice. And that is absolutely true. Let us not forget that there were people who were murdered in the wake of George Floyd.

Starting point is 00:36:32 Antonio Mays, David Dorn, Sequoia Turner. Those were all Americans who happened to be blind. who were murdered by BLM rioters who were apparently supposedly trying to promote justice for black people. They murdered black people. Huh? Interesting. The secular narrative of justice that justify looting arson and autonomous zones is expressions of the oppressed. That's what we see from the left from a Christian perspective. This exposes the folly of worldly ideologies that reject biblical justice, Virgil Walker says. The same voices behind the riots called for defunding the police. And what did that bring more chaos, more crime, more death? Chaos. Chaos.

Starting point is 00:37:07 parading as justice. Floyd wasn't the only flashpoint. We had Michael Brown. Of course, we had Kenosha, Jacob Blake. That ignited nights of arson and looting, culminated in chaos that left the city smoldering. The reaction to Charlie's death reflected everything that he stood for. Only candles burned, vigil candles, lifted high in memory of a man who gave his life for truth. People gathered in churches. Prayers rose instead of Molotov cocktails. Instead of mob's manning blood, thousands made decisions to follow Christ. Politicians who would never public declared the name of Jesus, suddenly spoke openly about the need for the gospel. Instead of excuses for lawlessness, there were testimonies of salvation. Yes and amen. This doesn't make Charlie

Starting point is 00:37:48 perfect. This doesn't make people on the right perfect. This doesn't mean that Republicans and conservatives are synonymous with like the body of Christ. That's not what I'm arguing. But when we look at the fruit of the ideologies of both sides, we see the reactions and responses to like two two very different people in two very different situations, we see that there is a real underlying difference. And like there is a different standard for human decency on the left and the right. And again, like, I just don't understand the so-called moderate and nuanced position of, yeah, it was bad that he was murdered, but he also was kind of racist. That doesn't make you a decent person. That's really, really scummy and really calloused. So again, no congratulations for me. I

Starting point is 00:38:33 think that that shows that there's not like a whole lot of moral and theological and like intellectual clarity when it comes to the loss of life like this and what I believe is true martyrdom. All right. Let's go into this next subject. We have a few minutes left and so I'll try to get as much in as I can as I respond to the Pope about the death penalty. So you know when the Pope says something that seems progressive, that I'm going to respond. And if you're one of my beloved Catholic listeners or viewers, please don't turn it off. Please don't comment angrily. Just hear me out.

Starting point is 00:39:13 And chances are you might agree with me. It's not just me. It's also Catholics who are calling out the Pope for what he said. But let me pause. Let me tell you about our next sponsor. And that is Cozy Earth. Y'all, I love Cozy Earth. They sent me a blanket that is amazing.

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Starting point is 00:41:12 So they're very complex issues. I don't know if anyone has all the truth on them. Okay. I do not like this line of thinking. And listen, it is okay to disagree with the Pope. I just want to say that. Because every time I disagree with the Pope, I will have someone who is angry who says, well, the Pope is not infallible. And I think that their point is that when I disagree with the Pope, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm undermining Catholicism. But listen, if the Pope isn't infallible, which I agree with you on that, then it's okay

Starting point is 00:41:48 for me to disagree with him. And it's okay for you to disagree with him because he is a fallible human being. And so he's going to say things that are wrong. unless you believe that he is infallible and totally sinless, which only Jesus was infallible and totally sinless. So that means he might say things that aren't in alignment with God's word. And of course, this is why I believe and why Protestants believe in the supreme authority of Scripture, because all of our thoughts and all of our words in every single teaching has to be in alignment with the word of God. And when he's talking about the death penalty,

Starting point is 00:42:20 not being pro-life, then what he is essentially saying is that God is not pro-life. because God is the one that commands the death penalty. If we go all the way back to Genesis 9, this is the Noahic covenant. So this is before Israel. This is before civilization. God says in Genesis 9, whoever sheds the blood of man by man shall his blood be shed. For God made man in his own image. So it's really important when we're reading the Old Testament, when we're reading the

Starting point is 00:42:52 New Testament to read what comes after, therefore, or for, or because. because the why behind a command can tell us, was something just cultural? Was something just true for that time and in that place? Or is the why behind something still true today? And if it's still true today, then what comes before that for or therefore or because is still applicable to us today? So when we read in this verse that whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed for God made man in his own image. The answer to does this still apply today because is it still true today is yes. God still makes us in his image. We are still made in God's image. So we read right there that the reason for the death penalty for murder is because of the

Starting point is 00:43:40 value of human beings and the value of human beings as image bearers of God has not changed, then that means that that is still a good punishment for murder. That doesn't mean that it has to always be the punishment for murder. We do see throughout scripture that God gives mercy to certain people, but that doesn't negate the rule. That doesn't negate the command. God actually gives the death penalty for a variety of crimes in ancient Israel, but we as Christians don't have to abide by all of the ceremonial and cleansing laws of ancient Israel because Jesus has become our cleansing. He has become our sacrifice, but the moral law is what Jesus upheld. He actually doubled down on the moral law.

Starting point is 00:44:22 He doubled down on the Ten Commandments in so many ways by saying it's not just about what you do. It's also about what's in your heart. And we see this principle here in Genesis 9, not just in the Old Testament and not just rooted in something that is a creation order issue, but something that is still true today. But we also see it reflected in the New Testament. In Romans 13, we read that the government is instituted by God to bear the sword against the evildoer. That's not just an analogy. That is a symbol of execution. That is a God-ordained government directive to restrain evil and punish those who are doing good. And for those who say, well, you know, the Bible says, Ten Commandments say thou shall not kill. No, the Bible doesn't say thou shall not kill. The Bible says thou shall not murder. And murder and killing aren't the same thing. If you are killing someone in self-defense, that's not murder. If it is a just war and you are killing someone, that is not murder. Obviously, we can see that throughout the Old Testament, that there is an instruction by God in some cases for the killing of an enemy. And so killing and murder are not the

Starting point is 00:45:30 same things. We see that murder is punishable by death because people are made in God's image. So I am actually pro-life for the same reason that I am pro-death penalty, because I care about innocent life, because human beings are so important and so valuable. that the crime of killing one of us is so hefty that the only commensurate punishment for it is execution. So you could say that you're against the death penalty today. You could say that you don't like how our justice system works. You could say, oh, I don't like that there's a possibility of accidentally getting the wrong guy. I don't want to give the government that power. And I would still argue with you on that because God's standard for justice is not perfection. It's not perfect to governmental system.

Starting point is 00:46:18 There are checks and balances. There is an establishment of eyewitness testimony. There is due process. We see all of that in the Old Testament. But a government doesn't actually have to be perfect in order to restrain evil. And so today there is still, I would say, total justification and defense for death penalty for murder. But even if you said that you don't agree with it being applied today, being against the death penalty per se, being against the death penalty in principle because you think it's cruel is calling God cruel

Starting point is 00:46:52 because he demanded the death penalty for a variety of crimes. And as I say so often, as was with my last conversation face to face with Charlie, like we talked about, you cannot be nicer than God. You're not nicer than God. You're not more compassionate than him. You're not more merciful than him. So if God says something, God is love 1 John 4th, and the most loving thing we can do is agree with him. I also am very offended by, and I think you should be too as a pro-lifer, whether you're a Catholic or Protestant,

Starting point is 00:47:26 the conflation of killing, a brutal murderer on death row, and poisoning and dismembering an innocent baby inside the womb, as if those two things are the same. And I was very appreciative of Matt Walsh, who is Catholic, calling this out. that this is not moral clarity. This is not moral strength.

Starting point is 00:47:48 This is not biblically true. This is not just. This is not wise. Like it is just not in alignment with what is good and right and true to conflate the just execution of someone who has received due process and has been proven to be a brutal murderer many times a rapist. And the execution of an unborn child, you know, sometimes the same chemical combination potassium chloride is used for both. And to say that both of those things are the same, like you

Starting point is 00:48:18 instinctively know that's not true, but you should also biblically understand that's not true. Because this child is legally innocent, this person who is being punished for his crime, is not innocent. And then I also hear the argument, well, you know, what if God was going to redeem them? Shouldn't we give them as much time as possible to be saved? And like, you know, shouldn't, Jesus says to turn the other cheek. Actually, I'll separate those two arguments. Shouldn't we give them enough time to be saved and hear the gospel? What I think is just if someone either raped or murdered someone, I think that they should get the death penalty after due process, after being proven guilty, if you want to say that you need eyewitness testimony,

Starting point is 00:48:59 if you want to say you need DNA evidence, I'm okay with that. I want the threshold to be high. But after they've been proven guilty by an unbiased jury, okay, that's not the government's power. that's like due process power. I think that they should hear the gospel. I think that they should be given the opportunities you respond. And then I think they should be executed quickly. Like, I think actually what is unjust about the death penalty is that it's used so arbitrarily and that it's not used consistently enough.

Starting point is 00:49:27 That the standard clearly isn't consistent and that we wait years and years for someone to be executed. Justice delayed is justice denied, I would say. And that you never know if someone's going to get the death penalty and you can always plea down and you can plea insanity just because a brutal serial killer like had a 60 IQ, oh, all of a sudden they should be given three square meals on the taxpayer dying for the rest of their life. No, that is unjust. I do think they should get the opportunity to hear the gospel. But listen, God is sovereign. Nothing's going to thwart his plans. He's not going to be like,

Starting point is 00:50:01 oh, dang it, I was just about to save him and they killed him. Like, that's not how God works. Like, you know God is powerful, right? And he can do whatever he wants. He's not like waiting for a certain day to save someone. You just can't do it before then because the American government is just too powerful. And if they had just waited to execute that person, then maybe God would have gotten them. So how salvation works. Like Job 42-2, nothing can thwart his plan. God is going to save who he is going to save. So I'm not persuaded by that. And then I'll get to this last argument. But Jesus told us to turn the other cheek in just a second. Let me tell you about our last sponsor for the day before we close out. And that's Chase Medical. Jace Medical is your

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Starting point is 00:51:44 the government, then we shouldn't have prisons either. We shouldn't have law enforcement. We shouldn't punish any crime in any way. Because if your belief is that we should always turn the other cheek when people murder or people rape or people assault or people steal, well, then we shouldn't put them in jail either. But clearly, that wouldn't be good for society. That wouldn't be a way to love our neighbor. That wouldn't reflect the order that we see all the way from Genesis all the way through. That would put very vulnerable people at risk. And again, going back to Romans 13, the government does not bear the sword in vain. Now, if the government was just supposed to like, I don't know, slap people on the wrist when they did something wrong, why do you think God through Paul would use that

Starting point is 00:52:28 language of a symbol of execution in the sword? Of course, like, there is violence that comes with breaking the law, especially when it comes to assaulting an image bearer of God, not because God is cruel, but because God is so merciful. He cares about us. Like, he cares about victims and potential victims. He also cares about the accused, which is why he had so many rights and protections for them in the Old Testament, too, which we really rely on in setting up our justice system. So I take offense. The Bible takes offense to this, like, papal comment that the death penalty is not pro-life. like I know people will say oh you're so like arrogant to believe that you're not calling me arrogant that's you think you're nicer than God I guess I don't I don't want to be there like that's self

Starting point is 00:53:17 idolatry I'm going to defer to God on that one I think um and then you know he goes on to say the inhumane treatment of immigrants which I agree inhumanely mistreating anyone is bad but I would like to know specifics there like are you talking about deportation are you talking about not letting people into our country because again countries were god's idea laws were god's idea borders were god's idea sovereignty was god's idea god wants order for societies to survive and thrive in jeremiah 29 the exiles uh in babylon were told hey seek the welfare of the city that i've placed you in we christians who are exiles here on earth are to seek the welfare of the city that God has placed as in.

Starting point is 00:54:02 And conservative Catholics, many of you have reached out to me to say that you appreciate these comments. I know I'm going to get some angry comments, but a lot of you who are conservative Catholics have also reached out to me and said that you are in total agreement. And I appreciate that a lot. I know it's not always easy to call out your own side, if you will, and the people who are in charge, especially in the Catholic Church. But a lot of Catholics are very disturbed by, it seems that Dick Durbin, who is a pro-abortion,

Starting point is 00:54:29 Democrat, that he is kind of like getting a pass from the Pope. Like all of this, the clip that we played earlier is in context of Pope Leo being asked about Dick Durbin, receiving this award potentially from a Chicago Cardinal, Blaise Kupik. Maybe that's how you say it, his plan to honor Senator Dick Durbin for his work on immigrant human rights issues. Dick Durbin is a big pro-abortion Democrat in the Senate. it and people were asking him about this because of course the Catholic Church is extremely clear about abortion. The Bible is extremely clear about abortion and some of the staunchest

Starting point is 00:55:08 pro-life advocates I know are Catholic. And so this should be disappointing. Like I think it's very healthy and very good when I see Catholics who are willing to say, Pope, like, you're not correct. That it's just not right. It's just not right to honor someone who believes and the legal right to slaughter unborn children. And like the Pope should be 1,000 percent. clear on that. Again, that's not a nuanced issue. Look, I just want to say, like, I see a lot of the same issues in evangelicalism and Catholicism, this like third wayism, this over emphasis on nuance that is really just like confusion masquerading as intellectualism. Okay? They're just morally confused. And that's why the Bible is so amazing because the Bible doesn't tell us in detail every single thing

Starting point is 00:55:56 that we should think about every single thing. But it gives us so much clarity on the created order issues on abortion, on gender, on marriage, and all of that. Like, it's really not confusing. It's all in the first chapter, the first book of the Bible, and praise God for that. And hopefully we can at least unite on the belief that God's ways are better and God's word is trustworthy. And even when we disagree, we can all go back to that to tell us what's true.

Starting point is 00:56:25 all right that's all we've got time for today we will be back here on friday

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1251 | ‘Doesn't Give Martyr’: A Response to Jackie Hill Perry’s Charlie Kirk Comments

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