Ep 1261 | Lies Your Therapist Tells You | Greg Gifford
00:00Your therapist is lying to you and they might actually be making you feel worse.Today, we are going to discuss the difference between an actual biblical counselor and whatGod's word says about mental illness and secular psychology, which tells you to focus on theself and actually may enlarge the problems in your life. This is a fascinating and super encouragingdiscussion with a licensed biblical counselor.And the author of the book Lies, my therapist told me, Dr. Gifford is an incredible resourcewhen it comes to the biblical understanding of the mind and the brain.This episode is brought to by our friends at Good Ranchers.
00:49Go to Good Rangers.com.Use Code Alley at checkout.That's good ranchers.com.Code Alley.Dr. Gifford, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.Can you tell everyone who you are and what you do?Yep. Well, thank you for having me, first of all. My name is Greg Gifford, and I'm a professor at theMaster's University in Southern California. I teach primarily in the School of Biblical Studies,
01:19but we do languages, theology, biblical studies, and biblical counseling is my specific emphasis.So it's like a field where we use the Bible to try to help people in the counseling process.And I'm sure we'll talk more about that.Yes.I also am a pastor at Faith Community Church.in Santa Clarita.I've been there for 12, almost 13 years.I love that fellowship.
01:45And that's my people.Yeah.And I think probably the best thing, like the personal stuff, is I married my high schoolsweetheart, and we've been together 20 years with three boys.That is awesome.Okay, so Dr. John McArthur was on this show a couple times,and he made waves a few years ago, and he probably said this multiple times.whenever he would talk about psychology or psychiatry,
02:10and he would talk about things like depression, anxiety, PTSD, and all of that.And of course, he believed that there were, you know, spiritual applications and spiritual remedies that could be given to someoneand also really criticize secular psychology, since psychologists typically in general deny the existence of a soul.They don't have the fullness of understanding of what a person made in the image of God needs.What is your take on that is someone who is an expert in biblical counseling?You've also talked and written a lot about things like PTSD.How should we think of that?Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of categories in that.
02:45First of all is the reality of what's being called mental illness.And you have to think through can your mind get ill and the ubiquitous nature.So it's everywhere.What we're facing right now is an epidemic of one out of five people arediagnosed with a mental illness, one out of five. The top are depression, anxiety, ADHD.So as a Christian, to be discerning, we have to say, what really goes into that? Like, what isdepression, biblically speaking, or what is anxiety, biblically speaking? Are they diseases of yourmind? And what is your mind? Yeah. So that, for the listener and for us, like, we just have to
03:30start to say, okay, so is depression a medical issue or is there something else that could becontributing to it? Is anxiety a medical issue, a disease that needs treatment? Or is there somethingelse that could be going into that? And that is, that's the first category of that conversation.And that's where I've tried to speak truth graciously from the word. There are people that are sufferingand we want them to hear the truth of scripture that can set you free. The second is the category ofpsychologist that you mentioned.This should be really weird to a believer that I would go to an unbelieving therapist who doesn'tbelieve in the soul, doesn't believe in the gospel, doesn't believe in redemption, forgiveness.
04:13And I would go to them with the most personal details of my life.And it's like, wait a minute.They have some fundamental worldview problems.How am I going to be truly helped?Like, helped at the root level.So Dr. McArthur did have.At times, he critiqued that whole ball of wax.Yeah.
04:34And what I've tried to do is to parse out, okay, which category do you want to talk about?Is it the mental illness stuff?Is it, do Christians go to secular therapists?And in each of those, the Bible is the answer.So trying to point people back to what does the scripture say.And for a lot of believers, we're kind of fed up with the secular therapeutic, like,wedging its way into my life and then wedging its way into my life.and then wedging its way into my kids' lives.
05:00So we're wanting better answers right now.And I think the Bible has those answers.Yeah.Do you distinguish between the mind and the brain?Oh, please.Oh, absolutely.Like that is my mantra.And I appreciate you asking the question.
05:13So absolutely.As the mind and the brain go,as your understanding of the mind and brain go,so goes your treatment of all the mental illnessand mental health issues.So biblically, it's really easy,to settle, and most Christians are familiar with Romans 12, verse two.Read it too.
05:34Yeah, please.I wrote the word that I spelt coffee on yesterday.Is that the renewing of the mind verse?I love this verse because most Christians are familiar with it.Like, take us back to our Awanida's, and here it is.Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing,you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.Okay, so God is actually transforming Christians presently, and that is the work of sanctification.
06:03Here it says, by the renewal of your mind, the reconformity back, the restoration.But mind here is the immaterial mind.It is the seed of your intellect and cognition.That's where reason and thoughts come from.What is God actually doing when you were saved and when I was saved?God is capacitating us and our minds to be renewed and transformed.But our brains are different from our minds.Our brains are part of our outer person.
06:36They are housed in our cranium.We can study them like any other organ,but your brain and your mind are not the same thing.And biblically, what's God doing here?He is not renewing your brain.He is renewing your mind.And this is an odd thought, but it's true.Yeah. We're both in our 30s. Our brains are deteriorating.
06:59Mine probably faster than yours. And when we think of the way that the outer man can waste away, my brain can deteriorate and my mind can be renewed, even though I may have, you know, an organ of my brain issue.So Christians have to start to think through brain versus mind. What are we talking about, first of all?and then you can start to connect the dots to chemical imbalances, mental illnesses or diseases.Is this an issue of my brain or is this probably more an issue of my mind?Quick pause, tell you about our first sponsor for the day.That is WeHeart Nutrition.Y'all, they just came out with two new products that I'm super excited about because I'vebeen using all my WeHeart Nutrition supplements for coming up on two years now and it's
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09:20there's a lot of overlap between the brain and the mind too, right?So I'm kind of putting you on the spot here.And you can tell me if this is not how you would organize it or not how you would think of it.Brain, mind, two different entities, but a lot of what is in our mind is housed in the brain, right?What would you say is a component of the brain that's just the brain?What would you say is a component of the mind that's just the mind?And what is in that middle part that the brain and the mind share?Does that make sense?
09:48Yeah, it does.So what does the mind do?Let's start with that.Yeah.The mind is immaterial.Your mind will continue to exist after your brain has deceased.So when I am brain dead, there are diagnosable criteria to establish that.My mind will continue to exist until the resurrection.
10:06So then practically we know my brain is not the source of my thinking.I almost wish it were because you could like medicate it or you could treat it,but my brain is not the source of my thinking.That comes from our immaterial person.So just consider the implications of that for a second.It's like your reason, your intellect, all of that comes from your.mind. But we do have the science of the brain that tells us how thoughts are formed and howmemories are formed, right? Yeah. Can they demonstrate causation? Or does the brain respond to what
10:40the mind is doing? Chicken or the egg. Okay. Right? Think about that. You know, I think I understoodthis more. I remember as a child thinking about the people who don't believe in a soul and don'tbelieve in God. And I remember having this just like it just hit me. How could you not believe this?Because then who would I be? I wouldn't have this personality. I wouldn't be who I, who I am without asoul. And I kind of had forgotten about that. But it almost seems like that's what you're saying.Are you saying that the mind and the spirit are two very similar things, if not the same thing?Right. I am. Okay. Because that's, first of all, it doesn't matter what I say, but that's what the Bible says.Yeah. The Bible's going to say, you're
11:21soul, your spirit, your mind, and your heart are all part of your immaterial person.Yeah.And the most used term is heart, especially in the Old Testament.So your entirety of your immaterial person uses those terms interchangeably.And I am not a person who thinks you can divide them out.I know some people it's dichotomy or trichotomy or something like that.But it seems like the Bible is more talking about your inner man versus your outer man.So your inner man is the source of those things.
11:51And it's just so it's easy.So like if I died right now, my brain would cease to work,but my mind would still be functioning in my soul,in my immaterial soul, as I'm in the presence of the Lord,2nd Corinthians 5.So the brain then, like, what is the brain?Well, I do my best not to dabble in medical science,so I'll try to stay at like the 30,000 foot category.
12:14But it is that organ that is responding to your inner person.It's the control center of your outer man.It's like your physical heart in that way.So what is it doing?It's not causing my thoughts.It's not determining my thoughts.It is more like a filter biblicallyof what is happening in my thinking.
12:38So this was a fascinating thing to me.I was talking with a guy after an ACBC conferenceand he had to use sign language.I don't speak ASL.There's a translator in between usand I didn't do a good job of articulatingwhat does the brain do? And he said, but what aboutAlzheimer's, dementia,
12:57traumatic brain injuries? Like, what about those,Gifford? And I was like,well, what those areis those are, your brain is damagedand it is affecting or influencingthe way that your mind expresses itself.But it's not causing it.Causation comes from the mind.
13:15So can you experience a concussionor a TBI or something? And it influencesis the way that your mind is expressing itself. No problem. Or maybe we've, we've kind of met that personin Alzheimer's where they start to become kind of mean or agitated. Biblically, they were that allalong. And what Alzheimer's is doing is removing the filter. What dementia is doing is removing thatfilter of your brain. So where does it come from? Biblically, where does it come from? It comes fromyour inner person. And the outer person is rested, well,unrested, your physical body is healthy, prepared, unhealthy. Yeah, I see the wheel's turning. So what's you got?
13:57Well, I'm curious about that. And I don't have as much expertise as you do. But different things like dementia and Alzheimer's, I mean, things that happen in our brain can affect the things, I think, can affect the things that we say. I know that hormones can affect our moods and can even affect our perception of things so that we react in a particular way that might not be in alignment with the Bible.or in alignment with reality.So when you say the person who with Alzheimer's becomes irritable and that was who they wereall along, it's hard for me to believe that that is necessarily true.Maybe it is true in some cases, but is there not something about Alzheimer's that would makea very typically sweet and kind person just that it would irritate something in themthat would actually make them seem more bitter than they actually.actually are. Does that necessarily mean that their mind is? Totally. Let me share a couple of
14:56thoughts with you, then answer that directly. So where does our thinking come from? You know,the Bible teaches the mind. Where does our actions come from? Proverbs 423, our heart. So we guard it,we keep it from it for the wellsprings of life. What's the epicenter of why I do what I do?It's my immaterial self. And I have toreckon with that. But to your point, can those physiological things be an extreme encouragement?Absolutely. Like absolutely. Can Alzheimer's, dementia, hormones, even sleeplessness, poor nutrition,pain? Can those things be an encouragement? Yes. But those things are never the determinerbecause my actions, my emotions, or think of my words, those are all an overflow of what's coming
15:49from my heart and my inner person.So I want to make sure that we give a space and say, yeah, totally.A person can be really, really, really, really encouraged to be irritable.By a physiological force.By a physiological thing, totally.But not caused.If we're using anger in the biblical, if we're using irritability as anger in the biblical context,a Christian cannot be caused to sin by their body.
16:17Right.Okay.Interesting. I never heard it. I never heard it described like that.Next sponsor is Good Ranchers. So Good Ranchers has a deal going on for Thanksgiving.Join Good Ranchers every Thursday night for a simple but meaningful challenge. Sit down,share a meal with your family or with your friends, with someone, with neighbors, coworkers.This is your chance to step away from the rush of everyday life and to connect with those around you.They're really passionate about the American dinner.
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17:31Go to Good Ranchers.com.Use code Alley for $40 off your order.That's Good Ranchers.com, code Alley.Why is this differentiation between the mind and the brain so important for how Christiansunderstand things like depression or PTSD?Yeah, good.because in 20 whatever we're in now 2025 we can think darwin for naturalism becoming the dominant westernworldview and everything has a medical explanation and we default to body must have an issue and we don't
18:11always default to what's happening in my inner person in my soul so we have medical sounding terminologythat is starting to be used of an immaterial entity,which is our mind.Mental illness.Right.Or mental disease.Yeah.But think of it this way, Allie,
18:28and those watching,like, when you go to a psychiatrist,what type of medicine do they actually do?Just like, don't trust me, like, Google it,go to a psychiatrist.Like, seriously,they're going to have you verbally describe what's taking place,and they are not empirically.
18:48diagnosing you based off of vitamin deficiencies, brain scans. So you can leave a medical doctor'soffice with a medically sounding label about your mind, and there was no medicine that was practicedto diagnose you for that. That's a really good point. And I've had a lot of people on who areskeptical about this whole chemical imbalance thing that we hear like a serotonian deficiency.But they're never measuring that. Like they're not doing blood work to say, oh, yeah,you're low on serotonin.Right.You talk to someone and they tell you.
19:22And like what other form of illness do we have where the doctor is like, oh, I can just hearit in your voice, you're vitamin D deficient.Like no doctor does that.They test your blood.100%.But for mental illness, they just, I don't know, feel it in your aura, which is superstitious.Right.So if you were like, hey, doctor, I think I have thyroid issues.
19:42Right.Then they would be like, okay, well, let's look.And then they're going to test.But when you go to a psychiatrist.and you say, hey, I think I'm depressed, they're going to say, well, do you feel sad? Do you strugglewith motivation? And it's like, wait, wait a minute, you're a medical doctor. Like, don't you want to do ascan? Don't you want to study my brain? You're going to look at neurotransmitters. So we're, how did,the real question is like, how did we become okay with that? Right. Because that's more interested,
20:08like, why don't we just laugh at that person doing that? And that gets back to the naturalistic worldviewthat we start with, that we think in terms of there must be a body.problem. This medically trained doctor is telling me that I have an illness of my mind or a diseaseof my mind, so I must have that. Yeah, that's interesting. And it's actually a lot more dangerousto give someone, potentially psychosis-inducing drugs than it is to give someone thyroid medicationthat they don't need. Right. And yet we accept that is totally scientifically a viable option.Right. Or think of our kids, too. Yeah.school psychologist says I think they have this thing.
20:51Usually for guys, it's ADHD and it's like, for girls, it's anxiety.And then now all of the sudden, like, we have no medical evidence, no medical testing, no medical proof.And now I'm putting my kids on psychotropics.And I haven't just paused to think like, wait a minute, like, how did they actually diagnoseand how do they know this is a problem of the body and not the immaterial self?Like that is the crisis that we're at.so how could we not have diagnoses growing right how could we not have children being diagnosed asearly as three four years old with mental illness like how could you not because you have no
21:28objective criteria by which you can diagnose mental illnesses yeah that's so interesting and anotherconsequence of the psychology world in general just not believing in the soul and not believingand at least a higher power and objective morality is that everythinggoes back to the self.Like everything goes back to like you are both the problem and the solution at the sametime, which is completely illogical.And I'm wondering what you think about this.I saw this quote in East of Eden, the John Steinbeck book for those out there who don't
22:01know that.And he was talking to someone who was very depressed after they had a loved one die.And he said, I'm paraphrasing.But basically, you have to go about your life as if it is a play.You don't feel it, but you have to do what you have to do, and eventually it will become real.And I just thought how different that is from most of psychology, which tells you that the most important thing is to, like, be authentic, to feel what you really feel, and then to tell people how you really feel and to constantly focus on your emotion.And that's the only way to heal.That's the only way to get better.
22:34It's all about empowering the self, knowing the self, discovering the self, and like presenting the true self to the world.and east of Eden is not the Bible,but I just thought maybe that does just go to showhow wrong we've been when it comes to healingand dealing with the brokenness inside ourselves and the world.Maybe the self can't be both the problem and the solution.Yeah, we can definitely be the problem, for sure.Yeah, but at the same time.
23:02Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's humanism.And so now, okay, so unbelieving psychologist,doesn't believe in God, doesn't believe in Jesus,doesn't believe in the gospel, what is it that they're going to help a believer do?Seriously, like, just let's make it that easy.Focus on yourself and your problem.Now, iatrogenesis, think of iatrogenic.I can create my own problems unintentionally.
23:31You want to create your own problems.Focus on how you feel every day.The Bible sets us free from self-worship.lovers of self second timothy three i gotta read this for you okay in the in times they will belovers of self-love that's the only place we see self-love thank you it's an indication of evil right soinstead of saying self-love is the remedy think of it as the problem that i'm trying to repent ofso the days are going to get worse timothy you be faithful hold fast to the word people will be lovers ofpleasure, lovers of self. Okay, so then carefully start to think that through. If my therapist,
24:15counselor is telling me to love myself more and they're trying to make me this solution here,I'm going to be more miserable. And just like, let's watch it unfold. The generation under 25have never had so much depression and anxiety. Right. So it's like a self, we are creating the problem,and then we're trying to come up with solutions to fix the problem. And the solution, and thesolutions themselves are making the problem worse, focus on yourself. So from a Christian angle,we are here to glorify God and make much of Him. Our life is not for ourselves. In fact,the call to discipleship is to deny yourself to take up your cross and to follow Jesus, Luke 923.So what is it? Self-denial is an integral part of being faithful. And if I focus on self,
25:03of course it's going to get worse. Of course I'll have more problems. And then now I'm goingto someone with a naturalistic worldview,and they're using medical-sounding labelswhen it's not really a medical issue in the first place.Next sponsor is Cozy Earth.All right, related bros and related gals,but especially related bros who are listening or watching.For Christmas, your wife, I promise,
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26:18Cozyearth.com code relatable. I think Christians buy a lot of that stuff too, because we hear a lot,especially in like the women's Bible study world. And this is what I wrote my first book on.We hear things that sound almost biblically true. Like you're enough. You're perfect the way you are.give yourself grace, all of these things that almost sound good.Well, Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself, so that's a command to love yourself too.It almost sounds right.And of course, it feels good.But you end up at the same place where the secular world ends up, which is the self.
27:02And believing that this path of self-discovery and self-fulfillment is going to make you happy.And you're saying it does the opposite.Yeah.And just think how seductive that is, though.like, Jesus came to save me, God love me so much. And you're like, wait, like, hang on.Like, is the emphasis God's glory and you being restored through the work of Christ to glorify Godor that God couldn't live without you? And that is why he sent Jesus. So it's like, who's beingexalted in the narrative of the gospel? It is the glory of God in the name of Jesus Christ. It's not me.
27:39So then I can Christianize self-love and say, God love.loves me. I am so valuable. And if I'm not careful, then it starts to be an exaltation of me again.Yeah. And it's so seductive because it's like legitimized, you're seemingly legitimized withscripture. So if you're going to love your neighbor, you have to first love yourself.Mm-hmm. If I'm going to love my neighbor like I love myself, I have to love myself.But the inherent problem is that who is getting the glory? Do we get the glory or does God get theglory? Yeah. Right. And it's not really a command to love ourselves.It's a given that we love ourselves.
28:15We're born loving ourselves in the same way that we're born seeking our own interests.Like we cry for food.We cry to be held.From the very first moment, we are interested in what we need.And that's not a bad thing.I think God created us with a survival instinct.We know what we need to survive.It seems to me that Jesus is saying in the same way that you naturally seek to meet your own interest and needs,
28:37seek to make the interests and the needs of other people.Not as high as your self-esteem is, make sure that other.people self-esteem is just as high. And that, I think, is how we're interpreting it. And if that'sthe case, you're going to be waiting a really long time until you love someone else. It's like,oh, I hated what I looked like in my outfit this morning. So sorry, kids, like breakfast is on you.Like it's just we, like you said, I think the point of glory is so important because I can say,okay, I woke up this morning not feeling great about myself. And maybe I'm not in a good mood orwhatever it is. It's like keeping me down. But because, because,
29:13Christ is in me and because his love never changes and because he died on the cross and hissacrifice like is is fixed like that gives me the power to love other people it's not about howI feel about myself that's actually a lot more freeing than thinking that my love for other peopleis dependent on my own love for myself right and I don't fault people first of all I don't want tosound like just a crumudge and it's like you know stop focusing on yourself because we'rewere raised in a culture that has exalted our feelings.Yeah.And you know you best.
29:46And who am I to judge you?Like that is the zeitgeist of our age.Truth is in you.Your feelings are authoritative.So then that starts to be kind of the solution as well.It's like, well, I want to feel better and I want to feel better about myself.That's the singular next step for me to thrive.Okay.
30:06But we know according to the scripture that God,God's word is the truth, not what's going on in my inner person. And my feelings matter,but they're not authoritative. In fact, I can have wayward emotions and feelings. So then you turnthat corner and you say, God sets me free from myself to worship him. And when I do that, I am themost satisfied person I can be. Psalm 1611. Like the pleasures are not at my right hand.They are at the right hand of the Lord. And when you think of,contentment as a Christian.It is not where you've learned to be true to yourself and listen to yourself.
30:46You learn contentment by being obedient to the Lord and then he changes your will,Philippians 213.So you really, you want what God wants.That is true contentment for us.So I'm never satisfied when I focus on myself.Yeah.Never.I'm more miserable.
31:04I'm grumpy.You know, like everything has to make me happy.And then it never does.I hit traffic again. I get woken up early. Like it never does. But whenever I'm living for theglory of God, I'm free because it's not about me. It's about making much of him. And all thoseinconveniences to my life can actually help me better glorify the Lord than if I lived at perfectease with no problems at all. I mean, that's the beauty of the gospel and the Christian worldview.And it is so counter to what modern psychology tells us. And by the way, people are accessing modern
31:37psychology, not necessarily by going into a psychologist's office and paying them $100 an hour,but on Instagram, on TikTok, because there are- Chat bots, too.Yes, yeah, which is scary to think about. But there's a lot of psychology influencers out there, too,or memes or whatever, and people are imbibing this idea that, you know, there are two thingsthat you can do if you're depressed, and one is to lean more on your own understanding and tolean more into how you feel about yourself, but then also cut out all of the things that aremaking you sad. Oh, this person, you know, is asking too much of you. Your boss expects youto work hard and come into the office. Well, all of these toxic things, or it's the patriarchy,
32:22or it's capitalism, or it's advertising, or it's this system or this person. And it makes sensewhen you think that it's an anti-Christian worldview, for Christian, the sanctification is notnecessarily asking God to remove all the hard things from our lives. It's asking God to help usendure them with grace and perseverance in a way that makes us look more like Christ. We're denyingourselves, as you said earlier, whereas modern psychology is asking us to deny everyone else.Right. And just to make sure my position is clear, and I'm very open to your thoughts on this,my reading of the scripture is that it is God-centered and our life is about glorifying him.And God can even use my emotional struggles to help me depend on him more.
33:07Whenever I'm anxious, I have to fight to trust him.Whenever my mood is depressed or melancholic,like I have to cling to the promises of Scripture and hold to them to use Bridges,Jerry Bridges' words.So I am not saying be miserable, but just grind and glorifying God.Yeah.But me being free of depression and anxiety is a secondary goal.it's not the primary goal.
33:33The primary goal is to glorify God.And then I have to think throughwhat does the Bible say about those issuesand how can I respond to anxietyor depression or ADHDaccording to the scripture.So it's still there.I don't want anyone to hear this or listen to be like,
33:48Gifford just believes that you should be miserableand glorify the Lord.No, I'm saying that glorifying God is number oneand then addressing whatever emotional,relational struggle you may have.That is your secondary goal.Okay, well, let's talk about what that looks like specifically.And if we can start with ADHD, because I think that's the most, like, interesting one.
34:09The Bible has a lot to say about being sad and distressed and fearful and anxious.But I'd be interested to hear, like, how would you work through with someone with ADHD using scripture?Okay, so first of all, think of what we're calling ADHD attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.Lots of symptoms in one umbrella.Fidgety, hard to focus.Seriously, it's like kids that get up and they're kind of rambunctious.You have girls, I have boys, and boys are just different.Like I've never, my boys are a little maybe rambunctious.
34:46Like I don't walk in on them playing house and like neatly building a Lego set.Like they're wrestling, they're bouncing the ball in the house.And those that are most diagnosed with ADHD are boys.and it's junior high.So then you think through that,it's like, oh, that's an interesting thing to consider,11, 12 years old.Where do they struggle most?
35:10School,sitting in one place for six, seven hours a day.Okay.Then you think through the girls that are their age,some have already gone through puberty.They're like a foot taller,as weird as that may see.You pick up your son in fifth grade
35:28and you're like,You guys are in the same class?Like, what's happening here?So then you have these boys that are rambunctious,wily, not sitting still,and the immediate leap is,well, they must have a disorder.Let's have them talk to the school psychologist.
35:41Let's get them tested.Okay, I don't fault school psychologist,and I don't fault trying to find resourcesfor boys that are rambunctious.But do they have a medically verifiable problem?That's the real question.Can we scan the brain?Can we do lab results?
35:57and there will be some watching this that says, yes,there's brain chemistry that corresponds to those with ADHD.And then I would say, great.So let's diagnose based off of brain scans and not symptoms.Which some doctors do.Very few, but some do.Let's do it.Okay, so is hyperactivity a disorder?
36:19Is being fidgety a disorder?Or is that a gifting that you have?So think of 1st Peter 4 in Romans 12.everyone in the body of Christ is given gifts, strengths, weaknesses that we have.There are some that are just not the school type.That's not them.They don't thrive in that environment.They're very active.
36:41They are very like, go, go, go, go, go.And their mind never rests.Looking back, I see a lot of CEOs or executive directors.And it's like, man, if they had ADHD whenever you were a kid, you would have been diagnosed with it because you're Bing, Bing, Bing, Bing, Bing.Yeah, I've definitely.seeing that and some like very successful people.They can hardly even look like look you in the eyes sometimes because they're thinking abouta million things, but they're very good at what they do. Yes. Right. So is that a is that something
37:09that has to be labeled and treated? Right. Or do you find the area to set your giftedness free?It's like you're probably not going to be a librarian. Yeah. Fair's right. Like is that a sin? No.Yeah. Would you be miserable if we made you go to a cubicle and type in Excel all day? Yeah. You would beabsolutely miserable. Yeah. So go be a park ranger. Go be an entrepreneur. Go work with your hands.Go build your own business or nonprofit. So how do you work with someone with ADHD?I think for a lot of the diagnoses, give them time to mature, give them a time to grow up,encourage them to do things that are hard and to persevere. And you can't always do the things thatyou love and eschew the things you hate. But do you have to take meds? Right. It's a Christian liberty,
38:04and I'm not going to say you absolutely cannot. Yeah. But I am going to say you want yoursons and some daughters, you want them to learn the life skills that go into denying yourselfand not depending on a medication that's going to help them focus. Yeah. But can you use it? Totally.you can use it in a God-honoring way when you've obtained those meds legally, you could do it.But help them mature first and help them grow and then steer them towards somewhere where they canreally thrive with their giftedness instead of the librarian, the accountant, the very sedentarypositions that will just probably make them crazy, seriously.Next sponsor is Preborn.
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39:20You are protecting these precious image bears of God.and all you have to do to get started is go to preborn.com. You could go to preborn.com slashAlley. Donate whatever you can. If you donate $28 that covers the cost of a life-saving ultrasound,but whatever you can give right now, it helps save a life. Go to preborn.com slash Alley. That'spreborn.com slash alley. I think just like with everything that we do, we have to assess ourmotives behind it when it is an area of Christian liberty. In this case, obviously, the Bible doesn'tsay you shall not do a brain scan and treat with medication, something that is an actual diagnosedADHD. But I think all of us need to ask. And as a parent, I can understand this. If you have a
40:09child that is having a really hard time in school, your other kids aren't, their friends aren't.You're watching them up on stage. Everyone else in the, you know, and the Christmas recital isdoing their job and doing the motions and singing, your child is running around on stage. Like, I canunderstand as a parent, oh, that's difficult. And you might feel like, well, I'm helping themby giving them this medication. But I think we all need to ask some questions. Is it really forthem or is it for you? Totally. Is it because they are actually having a hard time? Or do you justfeel awkward and uncomfortable? And is it also just making your job as a parent harder? Is itbecause maybe you don't want to homeschool? Is it because it takes longer to discipline and talk to
40:53your child, longer to get out the door. And those might all be real difficulties, but they also may beopportunities for sanctification, not necessarily psychiatric drugs. Right. On the parents part.That's what I mean. Yeah, you're growing as a parent. Exactly. And sometimes I think that's just,that's the most difficult part is the patience that's required of us as parents. And yes,it might make it easier for your child to sit through seven hours of school. But to your point,is that the goal?Like, is that really the goal?Is that something that's necessary for them
41:26or is it something that's necessary for you?Yeah, and I don't fault schoolsbecause schools actually have to get a diagnosisto get them private tutorsand more resources or an educational assistant.So the school's not trying to,you know, we could paint public schoolsas being evil and some are,
41:42but there's also a legal requirementto get tested and diagnosed with ADHDADHD to get you a smaller roomand less students in the class.and an educational assistant or specialist there.So then the school's saying,well, we got to get you testedto get you out of 30 person-sized classes
41:59and get you the attention and resources that you need.Right.So they need that diagnosis to unlock all these resources.So I don't envy that position,but as a parent, you should still be discerting and say,hmm, but I don't know if that is the real issue.I don't know if that's really going to help.Mm-hmm.
42:15And that could be hard to do.It's hard to assess how you're doing as a parentand all of the things that, like, you might need to change in order to, like, better accommodatethe personality and the strengths of your kids.I love what you said about thinking about those differences as strengths and not somethingthat needs to be stifled or medicated necessarily.I don't think that a lot of us probably think that way, even about our own selves, but I hadprobably every teacher my parents would say, tell my parents that I had ADD because I couldn't
42:46stop talking in class, but now I talk, you know, for a living. And so, yeah, I'm really glad thatI look back and I'm really glad that my parents said no to that. Because what if I didn't dowhat I do now? Right. So think of your giftings, right? The Lord's obviously blessing your work and youhave this huge impact through your words, through a mind that is sharp. What if at your earliest of years,you self-conceptualized as having a disorder, ADHD? So what if your parents said, okay, like,If you want to get her tested, let's get her tested.And then you got a diagnosis.And then now you start to hear what you can't do because you have ADHD.
43:26So that's an extremely detrimental side effect of the mental illness movement over diagnosing is kids self-conceptualizing as their diagnosis from very.So you would have learned from puberty that you can't do things.So your parents gave you that sweet gift of saying, nope, we're going to be.protect her and we're going to help her thrive in what she's good at and then here you are.Yeah. And I never did get an A in math and that's okay. Me neither. Yeah, because I don't use it.Okay, so depression anxiety. So we talked through ADHD for those who are like, look, Dr. Givert,I hear you, but they're thinking, I'm depressed. I can't get out of bed. I can't do it. You'retelling me this is a problem of the mind. I don't know how to pray more and read the Bible more than
44:12I already out. Yeah, totally. No one should hear this, watch.this listen to this and think i'm saying depression doesn't exist because i'm not saying that and no oneshould hear this watch this listen to this and think i'm saying anxiety doesn't exist because i'm not saying thati've never said that in the book i don't say that on my podcast i don't say that i've never said thosethings what i'm saying is let's start to to uncover what's going on in depression if there arephysiological issues, vitamin deficiencies, thyroid issues, there's something going on with mybrain, maybe there's actually a cyst or something growing on the organ, and it's affecting me insome way. It's affecting mood regulation in that way. You would say affecting your mind in a way
45:01that encourages you to sin, but does it cause you to sin? Yep. Because we know Roman 6th, we're set free,and we have God's spirit indwelling us, 1st Corinthians 619, so I can't, I can never once say my bodymade me sin. Yeah, that's good. It does get murky in terms of what is, was that a true sin or was itnot a true sin, you know, but, but we know that line is clear. Yeah. Okay, so if I don't have anyknown physiological problems, doctors can't find anything, there's nothing going on in the organof my brain, thyroid looks great, all my blood work comes back and it looks nice, then maybe just maybeI should be open to what's happening in my mind. What am I thinking about? What am I thinking about?about. What am I putting my hope in? Why, why am I disappointed and so discouraged? Did something change in
45:51my life recently that was not physiological, but was circumstantial? And that's what triggered thisdepression. Then you're not talking about a biological problem at all. You're actually talking abouta spiritual problem. Okay, so here, it's like, okay, well, Gifford, like, kick people while they're down,man. That's not what I'm saying. I am saying, you can be hopeless. And that's not a biolns.problem and what is the solution to that. We want to take you back to the nature and the character ofGod and his promises. We want to set you free that God is faithful. Second Corinthians, one, he's the Godof all comfort, that His mercy is unending for you, that even in the low point, if someone's watchingthis in bed right now, even in that low point, God draws people out of the mud and the muck and
46:39the mire, and he sets them on a firm rock, which is himself.that is the hope that people need.An antidepressant can't touch that.We need to behold the glory of God,not behold the glory of our problems,not behold the glory of ourselves,not behold the glory of psychotropics.So if there is no physical issue,
47:03would we at least be open,at least open,at least consider what may be happeningin our inner personthat's contributing to things like depressionin that way.Makes sense?Yeah, it makes sense.
47:15Abigail Shrier, I don't know if you've read her book, Bad Therapy.She's great.She came on this show to talk about it, but she also went on Joe Rogan and she talked aboutlike one of the key features of depression is often just a constant dwelling on your own problems,which to me would be one of the problems of psychology because what I hear from popularpsychology is that that's how you heal your problems, is constantly talking about themand thinking about them.Right.
47:42That's one problem I have like with SEL in school because especially for kids, like this focus on the feelings and the problems and the concerns that you have.I just don't know if that's healthy.She brings that up in bad therapy.She says start class every day by asking your students how they feel and you're actually going to make them feel worse.Yeah.And it's like, Shriar's not arguing for a biblical worldview, but there is something correct about that, which is a self-centered world.view makes me more miserable, like we were saying a few minutes ago.So can you be encouraged to be myopic?
48:20Yeah, absolutely.And that's where some of our teachers are totally out of line by asking our studentsthe wrong kind of questions.It's almost like you're leading the witness to a degree.Yeah.And anxiety.Yeah.How do we think through that biblically?
48:37Okay, so I would have different than depression.Let's use the term.that comes from the scripture. But then I do think there's a cultural term that younger people willuse that's more like stress. The term from the scripture, anxiety, Philippians 4-6, Matthew 6,Jesus says, do not be anxious. Okay, so it's pretty clear that Jesus is focusing on anxiety as a matterof having little faith. So what's the remedy to anxiety? Well, consider the lily.please consider the birds god feeds them god clothes them and god knows your needs as well so what isanxiety definitionally it's like an over-concern i'm too concerned worry some of you's fear
49:28interchangeably but worry seems to be a better modern to english equivalent if that's what you're sayinganxiety is then the bible would say that is a sin to repent of and why is that because we're notplacing our faith and trust in the Lord and practical things like food and clothing. So the solution isturn from that like we would any other distrust of the Lord, repent from that, and then now beholdGod as your provider who's good and wise and loving. And the grass of the field reminds us God's aprovider. Seriously, the birds remind us that God doesn't forget us. So there's another categorythat I find younger people use, which is they'll say they're anxious in a way that older generationswould say they're stressed. So it's like, how is your week? It's like, oh, just so anxious, so much
50:16going on. But they don't really mean like, I'm failing to trust the Lord. They mean something likeI'm kind of overwhelmed. And in that way, it is kind of confusing. The first time I said in class thatanxiety is a sin, like, you could feel the breath of my students like gasp. Like, where is this guy from?Yeah.And I was like, wait a minute.Like, is that a thing?Like, do we have to tease that out?And we did.
50:40And I learned that they were using anxiety like overwhelmed.Yeah.So can you be stressed and not be anxious?I think you can.Can you be burdened?Second Corinthians 4 struck down, perplexed, all those things and not be anxious.Yeah, I think you can.But if we're talking about anxiety, the solution to anxiety is to learn to trust the Lord
51:02in the practical things you're struggling with.Is it your kids?Is it your health?Is it your career?Is it your money?Consider this atheism.When we talk about anxiety,anxiety is a mild form of atheism.
51:21Kevin Carson, undergraduate prof,told me that and I was like, yeah, that's it.You're totally right.Because I'm not seeing that God's in total controland he's good.and wise.And when I know that God's in control, he's sovereign,and I know that he's good,
51:37meaning he's not this evil dictator,then I trust him and I'm not anxious.Like, why would I be anxious?God's got this.He's in total control and he's good and he's wise and he knows.So your anxiety and my anxiety,and I could be a man who is prone toward anxiety.It's actually crushed by a big view,
51:58a transformative view of who the Lord is.And then I learned to practically trust him in the areas that I'm struggling with.Seriously.Yeah, that's really good.I remember there's a quote.I'm going to paraphrase it by C.S. Lewis, who said something along the lines.I'm worrying about the future is like picturing the future without God's grace in it.Because if God's grace is in the here and the now with us, everyone hears about those moments where some Christian goes through awful tragedy.
52:29and everyone around them is like, how are you so at peace?Like, obviously you're sad, but you don't seem distraught.You don't seem completely destitute.And obviously the grace of God met them exactly where they were.But when we picture some future events, some catastrophe, our spouse dying, our child's getting diagnosed with cancer,one, we can't control that.So that is, I think, a large part of where the anxiety comes from, not only that it's going to happen,but that we can't do anything to stop it.
52:59But then also we're picturing that moment without God's grace therebecause we're thinking about a hypotheticaland God's grace is only real.And so I think that also just stirs in usa lot of unnecessary worry,which I think Satan, you know, he likes thatbecause, of course, he likes to imagine a worldwithout God's grace in it.
53:19I also think 100% on all that you're saying.So when I'm tempted to be anxious,I want to know.Like I just want to know.Yeah.And then I co-mingle that with the Lord blesses the plans that I establish.You want to be intentional.And then before long, I am trying to control things that are not mine to control.
53:43Yeah.So the worship of control becomes really who you functionally are living for.And it's not the worship of God.And then when I can't control it, I'm anxious or fearful.Last sponsor for the day is concerned women for America.From Congress to your children's schools,there is a cultural war raging across the country.And you guys know it.
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54:36and government to make sure that our children are protected. They are fighting against sexualexploitation, the sanctity of life, the cohesion of the family, and so much more. They trainwomen to become grassroots leaders, speak into culture, pray, testify, and lobby. Penny Nance isthe president. She's got this incredible book, A Woman's Guide, Seven Rules for Success in Business and inlife. All you have to do is donate $20. They'll send you a free copy of that book. Go toConcernedwomen.org slash Alley for your copy today. That's concernedwomen.org slash alley.What other lies have our therapist told us?Ooh. What other lies have our therapist told us?
55:21So mind brain is important. Medicalizing the mind is the next lie that we want to cut straightas Christians, we are doing our best to then dissect what is it that we're facing with God'sword. So if it's depression, anxiety, ADHD, take each of those, seriously, run them throughwhat the Bible says about what you're experiencing. And if there's no physiological problem,then start to develop a worldview that the solutions are coming from the scripture,not from the secular therapeutic.And even if you do have a physiological problem,that doesn't mean it's only physiological, right?
56:03Because it can intersect with the mind,which means, like, God's word has an answer for that.Yeah, I think of stress, right?Like, there are those that respond to stress by sleeplessness,losing hair, can't eat.And you're like, is that a gastrointestinal problem?Yeah.I would love to think I could eat sweet potatoes and I trust the Lord and my body's completely
56:28restored.But I have to learn that, no, I must grow in trusting him.So I'm at peace.And then that affects my body as well.So we want to emphasize, yeah, your body can encourage things, but your inner person canalso encourage things within your body.So as Christians, we're not neglecting one or the other.but the current tendency, and this is the lie we have to face in the churches, it's not all a body
56:56problem.Right.Like that, let's cut that straight.It's not all, if there's no evidence that it's a body problem, then let's just be open to the factthat there's a soul problem here.Yeah.I think that, like, it goes back so perfectly to the beginning of this conversation, because I'mthinking of some examples in my own life.
57:14Like, there might be a particular set of circumstances that actually makes you stressed.It makes your body stressed.It makes your palm sweaty.It makes your mind or brain start raising, whatever it is.Like you really do feel you have butterflies in your stomach, all of this stuff.But it's not making me be irritable.It might encourage me to snap at my family or to be rude to someone or to cut someone off in traffic because I want to get where I'm going.And from the outside perspective, it's totally understandable for me to act that way.
57:49But it is not making me sin, and I'm so responsible for that sin.Because, of course, one of the fruit of the Spirit is not self-love, but self-control.And the Holy Spirit, it, you know, indwells us and can direct the mind no matter what's happening in our physiology.And like you said, it doesn't mean that our physical circumstances and body doesn't matter and that it can't affect the mind.But Christians have to be thoughtful enough to remember the presence of the Holy Spirit, right?and the huge power it has in our lives.And we're not, you know, we're not dominated by the prince of the power of the air anymore.So, Ali, some listeners are going to hear them like, are you serious?
58:29Like traffic can't make me angry?Is that what you guys are saying?And they're going to feel a burden by that.And I think we have to say, yeah, you should feel responsibility, but change can happen.God forgives if we repent.So instead of me saying, I'm controlled by my anger.and as men, we can feel legitimized in our anger.Instead of me saying, like, I just have to be an angry dad, an angry husband,
58:55I can say, you know what?God calls me to bear responsibility for it,but then he promises that he will forgive me,if I confess, 1 John, 8 and 9,and that he will give me the resources I need to change.I don't have to be that anymore.So don't feel the burden of like, oh, man, that's a lot.Allie, Gifford, you're killing me.
59:16It's like, no, feel the first.freedom that you can change. Transformation is the idea that you are completely new.Like that's what a beautiful concept. Not managing the symptoms of. You don't have to be thatanymore. So don't hear like own your sin as this heavy guilt. Hear like own your sin,yes, but you behold the glory of Jesus, not the glory of your sin. Hebrews 12, look to him.in your fight against sin you don't focus on your sin you focus on jesus and that brings you freedomfrom those things another thought for you lies that therapists are um Christians just think this throughwhat is repentance what is repentance mean practically change of mind change of mind not change
01:00:10of brain. If you're unrepentant, Romans 128, you have a calloused mind. Or you have a defiled mind,Titus 115, that's said of false teachers. Scary thought, but your mind can actually be hardened,your mind can be calloused. Okay, so why does that matter? Christians, let's just think this throughcarefully. If you're going to an unbelieving therapist for help about the most personal matters ofyour life, you could literally be sitting across the desk from someone with a hardened, calloused,defiled mind trying to help you with your most personal intimate problems. In what world does thatmake sense? In what world? That's plan C, or that's plan D. But plan A is that I could find somebodywho would use God's word as the source and authority to really help me with the root of what's going on here.
01:01:15Yeah, I thought.Well, I was going to ask, for those who don't know, what is the difference between a licensed biblical counselor and someone who is just a Christian therapist?Yes, good.The difference between biblical counseling and Christian therapy or Christian counseling is a question that I get.pretty regularly. So I host a podcast called Transformed and listeners will write in and say,does that mean anyone that uses the Bible as a biblical counselor? And the answer is the differencecomes down to what's the source and the authority. Love Dave Ramsey. I've used his plan,but he'll typically grab a proverb and then use that one proverb to develop a whole structure of debt
01:02:01and managing your personal finances. In the counseling world, it's like that as well. It's like we have 99%Rogers, 99% Freud, and then a proverb that's kind of dropped in there somewhere.Right. And you're like, wait a minute. Like that's Freud's anthropology, what he believesabout people. That's his satirology about salvation and sanctity. And then we have a proverbthat's dropped in. That's Christian counseling because the counseling is not coming from the Bible.There's a Bible verse that's used. Whereas biblical counseling is attempting to take God's word asboth the source and the authority. So the whole structure is built. You interpret people.through the lens of scripture. You interpret their problems through the lens of scripture or the
01:02:42solutions through the lens of scripture. That is an outworking of our commitment to thesufficiency of scripture, which is the Bible has the answers that we need. And will someone who is abiblical counselor have, like, licensed biblical counselor under their name? If there's someoneout there that's looking for that, like how do they find that person? I think you do need to bediscerning about that because some people will just kind of hang a shingle out and say,biblical counselor, I got a Bible. And that's great. We appreciate well-intended, compassionate people.But you are looking for a level of training. You know, I teach at the master's university where we havebachelors all the way up to doctoral degrees in this. So training, education that corresponds
01:03:25to being equipped for that. And then there is a certification process called the Association ofCertified Biblical Counselors. That's the organization. And they actually train you, test you,observe you in counseling to ensure that you can implement what you've done. So it is very possibleto get a degree but never have actually counseled people or met with people. So you have all theknowledge, but not the skill. So look for someone that has education, yes, Master's University,or I'm looking for someone that's ACBC certified. And if there's listeners that are interested,like email me and I'll point you to the, there's a different, it's like a map, an interactivemap that can show you biblical counselors in your area.
01:04:07That's really good.I think for people, I'm just thinking through this myself.Like if I were sitting across from a therapist, and maybe this can only be deduced overtime, but someone who doesn't believe that, like, we are born simple and that we are sinnersor that we don't need a savior, or doesn't acknowledge the need for salvation or sanctification,like once you start to see that, that a lot of psychologists believe that you are inherently good,inside, that's when you'll see, like, the big difference in the wisdom that they're going to give you.And that's when you should walk out if you haven't already.
01:04:42Imagine being super, like, vulnerable.And then the therapist psychologist says, yeah, you deserve better.You're great.And you're like, I am great.You know, like, they shouldn't treat me like this.Happens every day.Right.Yeah.
01:04:57Wow.I just thought about something else and we don't have time to do it, but we don't have time to get into this.So maybe you'll have to come back and I'll leave everyone on a cliffhanger.But you're talking about how like, okay, depression, anxiety.We're talking about how that's not typically diagnosed using blood work or a brain scan.And yet they'll tell you, you know, unequivocally that you have low serotonin or something.And the only other thing I can think of that we do that with is like transgenderism is that you hear someone talk and you're like, yes, your brain is a female brain.We're not doing brain scans.
01:05:30Like we're not testing hormones.not that that would indicate that they're born in the wrong body, but again, they are being givensomething to change their body based on like a totally subjective and politicized evaluation.And I just am thinking now how much of the psychotropics that are given are based on that kind ofpoliticized, psychologistsized, totally subjective reasoning.And it actually is changing people's brain in a way that can affect their mind in very dangerous ways.symptom-based diagnosing.Yes.
01:06:03I'll add one more for the teaser.There's also a group of people that have food allergiesthat do not have a medical proof.And you ask yourself like,I didn't know that.If we talk about food allergies,a self-diagnosed food allergy,I'm gluten-free, I've never been tested,
01:06:21there's no test that proves it.That's interesting because I'm now describing my own health.I'm describing my own gastrointestinal problems,and yet there's not an enough.necessarily medical evidence for that.Like it's a fascinating concept of, is that true or is that not true?The self-pathologizing.Right.
01:06:41The crunchiness.Yeah.Well, that has been, yeah, it's interesting.We could have a whole other conversation about that.That when, like, it does seem that nowadays when, like, the patient walks in, like, we'reable to self-diagnose and then they can just give us the medication that we're asking forbecause we are directly advertised to by the pharmaceutical company.And I'm pretty sure we are the only country, if not one of the only countries in the world, where we get that direct to consumer advertising of. Isn't that fascinating? Yeah. We diagnosed ourselves. We just need the doctor to write the prescription. Yeah, I saw this commercial for Wellbutrin.
01:07:16All right, well, web-imded it, you know, and this is what I have. Yeah. And if the doctor disagrees with me, then I reject that. Yeah. Wow. What a dangerous world we live in. But all the more need for actual biblical counsel that comes.from the Word of God that comes from Jesus who doesn't change, Hebrews 138. And that is a comfortwhen it seems like everything else is giving way. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.Amen. Amen. Okay, everyone can buy your book. Why is my therapist told me wherever books are sold?Right. Whatever they want. And you have a podcast that's called transforming. Yeah, so transformed. If you justGoogle transformed, you'll find me. It's part of Fortis Institute where I'm a fellow.Okay, awesome. Thank you so much, Dr. Gifford. I really appreciate it. Thank you.No
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