Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1274 | Predestined to Hell? Calvinism Explained

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Starting point is 00:00:46 That's fellowship homelones.com slash alley, term supply, see site for details, fellowship home loans, mortgage lending by the book, nationwide mortgage bankers, DBA Fellowship Home Loans, equal housing lender, NMLS, number 819-382. What is Calvinism? Is it just unbiblical, fatalistic determinism? Or is it actually backed by scripture centered on the glory and the sovereignty of God? These are very fair questions. I get asked a lot what Calvinism is and what the Bible says in relation to Calvinism. So let us break it down on today's episode of Relatable. It's brought to you by our friends at Kexi Cookies. Y'all, Kaxi Cookies are so good. They're made by real, with real ingredients. Their flavors are amazing. It includes

Starting point is 00:01:34 salted caramel, peppermint fudge, cinnamon roll. Go to kexie.com. Order before December 15th. Use Alli 15 for 15% off. That's kexie.com code Alley 15. Hey guys. Welcome to Relatable. Happy Wednesday. Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far. All right. Today we are going to do something that is truly. evergreen. We are going to talk about Calvinism. Now, I back in 2019, did a whole series of evergreen content for my first maternity leave. I did, I think, like, nine weeks worth of episodes that had to do with politics, that had to do with theology and interviews. And I did an episode on predestination. We talked about different points of Calvinism. But I received a text from a

Starting point is 00:02:36 friend the other day asking, what is Calvinism? Can you break this down for me? She found the old episode that I did and she said it was helpful. But I thought that it would be a good time to kind of refresh this. I get questions about this a lot. I think there are a lot of misunderstandings about what Calvinism actually is and why it matters. And so to clarify a lot of the questions that you guys seem to have, I wanted to get into it. The reason why Calvinism is considered controversial is because it is seen by many as a form of determinism. So God is just determining what happens and we don't have any free will.

Starting point is 00:03:19 Some people would say Calvinism posits and we're just puppets without really any responsibility but somehow also can incur punishment. There are plenty of critiques of Calvinism, some that I think. think are totally valid and interesting and then some that are just misconstructions of what the form of theology is. So let's start. Let's give some context about not only what this is, but why it actually matters. It's almost turned into a buzzword in theological debates and you guys know how much I like to define my terms. And I truly believe, no matter what you believe, this will be a helpful, a helpful primer on what.

Starting point is 00:04:03 Calvinists actually believe. So Calvinism is a form of theology. And let's get down to brass tax. Theology means the study of God. Theos, God, logi or logos, word rationale, reason, study. The primary means of knowing God is through his word, which for us has been written down in something called the Bible and it has been carefully translated so that what we call the biblical canon, the 66 books that we now hold in our hands matches the earliest manuscripts that we have found. And these 66 books were chosen through a long process, but have been verified and validated and substantiated not only by the references by the apostles and the New Testament writers, but also by Jesus himself.

Starting point is 00:04:54 And we could get into, we should do a whole episode about how these 66 books were chosen and how we know that they are reliable. But for now, we will just say this, that the Bible is our primary means of knowing God. There are other ways of knowing God. We know him through prayer. We know him through the wisdom given to us by the Holy Spirit. We have that relationship with God through Christ.

Starting point is 00:05:20 But we can understand his character and his will best through Scripture, which is authoritative. It is infallible, so it cannot fail. it is also inerrant. So that means without error. In the 16th century, there was something called a Reformation. And it was called the Protestant Reformation. It was ignited by a man named Martin Luther. He was a German monk. He nailed something called the 95 Theses, reportedly on the door of the Wittenberg Church. And these are 95 issues that he had with Catholic leadership at the time, Catholic practices that were going on at the time.

Starting point is 00:05:58 He did not intend to start a revolution. He was actually not trying to protest against the papacy. He held his entire life to some doctrines that are considered to be Roman Catholic. So he wasn't trying to start a revolution by saying that, hey, it's wrong to tell people that their loved ones can be sprung out of purgatory by giving money to the church via something called indulgences. but start a revolution he did. The Catholic leadership not only excommunicated Martin Luther, but they sought his life. But incredibly, God used a variety of means to protect Martin Luther, who became convinced

Starting point is 00:06:37 that the single most important thing he could do was translate the Bible from the original Greek and Hebrew into German. And the way that this coincided also with the invention of the printing press is just incredible and speaks to God's providence and his desire for people to know him through his word. And Martin Luther did this so that people could read for themselves how to get to heaven. So they could see that it is by grace through faith, as Ephesians 2 8 tells us that a person is saved, not through money, not through church attendance, not through good works. Martin Luther was not a perfect man by any means.

Starting point is 00:07:16 But God used him as he uses all imperfect people to light the fire of, the Reformation fueled by the light of Scripture and the hope of the gospel, he insisted that scripture supports the main thing that makes Christianity different from every other religion. Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, even Judaism all tell you how to get to God. Here is your list of requirements. Here's the money that you have to pay. Do these things. Say these things and you'll be good. You'll be right with God. But Christianity fundamentally bring something new by saying no no no you can't get to god so he has to come down to you you can't make yourself clean you can't pick yourself up it is only god's grace that can make you alive and faith in that saving

Starting point is 00:08:05 grace that can save you so what's called the five solas or the five alones of the reformation were and are by grace alone through faith alone in christ alone according to scripture of alone for God's glory alone. Sola gratia, Sola Fide, Solis Christus, Sola Scrippsura, Soli Deo, Gloria. That's the Latin for the five solas. And this is the gospel. And this gospel, which, by the way, was not new at the time of Martin Luther or the Reformation. This was the very gospel that was preached by Jesus and the apostles and all the writers

Starting point is 00:08:45 of the New Testament. The knowledge of this gospel, the access to this gospel, through. God's written word for the common person spread like wild fire throughout Europe. And ultimately, it laid the foundation for the United States, this belief in the freedom of conscience, the responsibility of the individual to gain wisdom and knowledge of Christ through his word was foundational to Western civilization in America itself. The founders were Protestant. Those rebellion against King George were largely Presbyterian.

Starting point is 00:09:17 The pilgrims were not only Protestant, but they were pure. That's like the Protestant of Protestant. And even more specifically, they were Calvinists. So the reason it is so important for anyone to understand Calvinism, whether you are one of my beloved Catholic listeners, or whether you are a Protestant, whether you are an agnostic, is because it has had a huge influence on the American conscience, how we define right and wrong, how we define legal and illegal. Not exclusively, but definitely predominantly. Calvinism maybe in light of, because of, or maybe despite its influence, depending on how you look at it, has been extremely demonized by all types of people, both in and outside of Protestantism. I think some non-Protestants think that all Protestants are Calvinists that is so not true. It is actually probably a very small sliver of Protestantism today. But that's why I think it's important to understand, what it actually is because even though very few people, relative to the general population, would call themselves Calvinist, the belief system, the worldview that it has kind of created or helped shape is extremely influential today. And even after this episode, you may or may not believe that that demonization is justified. I can't wait to see your comments for us to discuss this. But let us try our best to

Starting point is 00:10:48 really understand what it teaches. Calvinism is a theological framework that is born out of the reformed Protestant tradition. So all that I just explained with its own set of specifications that we will get into today, I'll get into some of those specifications and some of those details in just a second. Let me pause, tell you about our first sponsor for the day. And that is pre-born. All right, it's end of year giving time. Maybe you're thinking, okay, what do I do? with the money that I have set aside to give to the causes that glorify God and help his people. And one of the best causes that you can give to is the defense of the sanctity of life. The most helpless, the most powerless, the most defenseless and the most voiceless among us are

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Starting point is 00:13:10 I would argue, a defining feature. It is something that makes the Calvinist view of salvation very distinct. But Calvinist themselves would say that Calvinism reads the Bible with a keen focus on and magnification of God's sovereignty and God's glory. So what does sovereignty means? It means that God is in control, basically, that he reigns over all of it, that he does not have limited power. There's no part of the spiritual or physical realm that his power cannot reach. And this emphasis on God's glory means that God does what he wants to do and how he wants to do it. He allows what he wants to allow. He causes what he wants to cause all for his glory, whether we understand it, whether we like it or not.

Starting point is 00:14:03 And Calvinists would argue this includes salvation and damnation. And that is where the controversy for many begins. I actually remember in sixth grade, I was so incensed by this idea of predestination. I was basically like the people in Romans 9 being like, how would it be just? How would it be good and merciful and kind? All of these things we know about God for him to create people that he knows are going to be sent to hell and he doesn't choose to save them. And so you might already be thinking those things.

Starting point is 00:14:34 And if you are, then 12-year-old Ali completely relates to those questions and they're really good questions. We'll get into some of them today. Before we get into the rest of the theology of what Calvinism actually is, let's back up a little bit and talk about what it's named after. It is named after a man called John Calvin. And this is according to Ligonier Ministries. And there's John Calvin right there with his pointy beard. Very important. It seems like this is like a mainstay of Calvinism today.

Starting point is 00:15:05 You can tell that a man is Calvinist by how much of a beard he has. Remember Chad Wright? Chad Wright, hardcore Calvinist. We love Chad Wright. He has a similar beard to John Calvin. This does seem to be just an indicator of someone's Calvinism. But he crossed over with Martin Luther. He lived from 1509 to 1564. There were other reformed theologians at this time. And remember, reformed refers to the Protestant Reformation. These people had a lot of problems with what the Catholic Church was doing at the time. Some of the things that they were. were teaching at the time. And so they were inspired by what Martin Luther was doing. Didn't agree with everything that Martin Luther said, but many people like John Calvin, he held to the five solas or the five alones of the Reformation. And he built upon that. And John Calvin, again, according to Ligonier, I didn't finish that thought. That's a ministry started by R.C. Sprole, who died, I believe in 2017 was a reformed Calvinist theologian. But he was a reformed Calvinist theologian. But he wrote, John Calvin wrote the Institutes of the Christian Religion. I wrote it first in Latin and then

Starting point is 00:16:18 it was translated into his native French language in the mid-1500s. And this was and still is a very important breakdown of what John Calvin believes the Bible teaches about the Christian religion, particularly when it comes to salvation. Calvinism stresses. Calvinism stresses. the sovereignty of God and his creative power and providential care. The absolute authority of the Bible is the source and norm for all of life and the reality of both human sinfulness and human responsibility. A hallmark of Calvinism is continuing the role, according to Ligonier, of God's law. The Ten Commandments remain the rule of the Christian life.

Starting point is 00:17:03 After conversion, they would say Calvinists would believe that this is part of the moral law. And not only Calvinists believe this, this is really just kind of like a Protestant teaching, that we don't abide by the ceremonial law. We don't abide by the cleansing laws because Jesus has become our cleansing. He's become our sacrifice, but he didn't do away with the moral law. He doubled down on the moral law. We see him emphasize the Ten Commandments in the New Testament, not do away with it. And then there are the five points of Calvinism. You'll talk about, or you'll hear about people saying, I'm a five point.

Starting point is 00:17:39 Calvinist or I'm a four point Calvinist. And that is summarized by an acronym called Tulip. And maybe you've heard of this before. Tulip stands for total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of the saints. These were set forth by the synod of Dort in 1618 to 1619. And that is really what summarizes all of the principles the core beliefs of Calvinism. So let's get into what Tulip actually is. So as I said, T stands for total depravity. Total depravity means that we are not just sick in need of some medicine. We don't have the ability to save ourselves. There's nothing good inside of us that makes us naturally want to seek God. But any inkling that we have,

Starting point is 00:18:39 that there's something higher or something better or that we need to be saved has nothing to do with our natural selves and has to do with the grace of God through the Holy Spirit. So Calvinism teaches that sin has corrupted every single part of human nature, mind, heart, will, emotions. It doesn't mean that we are as bad as we could be at all times, but we certainly have the capacity for that, that every single part of that of our nature has. the capacity to be as sinful as possible. And ultimately, it is about our state without Christ, that we are completely spiritually dead and unable to seek God or do anything truly good on our

Starting point is 00:19:25 own. So Calvinism gets this from Ephesians to 1 through 3, which you have heard me cite many times on the show. And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air. And I could go on and on. That's one of my favorite passages. If you are dead in your sin, do you have the ability to wake yourself up? Does medicine help you? Does someone reaching for you and lifting you up help you?

Starting point is 00:19:57 No, if you are dead, you are completely helpless. You actually have to be resuscitated. You have to be made alive. You can help yourself or clean yourself off or do anything about the stench of your decaying body at all because you are dead. And so Ephesians 2 says that we are completely dead in our sin. And this is part of where Calvinists get this idea of total depravity, that we have nothing inside of ourselves that reaches towards salvation. That is all a gift from God. They also get that a few verses later in Ephesians 2, 8 through 10.

Starting point is 00:20:34 that this is not your own doing it is a gift of God. And then the U is unconditional election. Unconditional election, Calvinist A, is based only on God's free choice. Calvinism says that God chose before the world began which specific sinners he would save. And he based that choice only on his own will in love, not on anything he saw that they would do. Ephesians 1, 4 through 5 would be a verse that's cited here, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love, he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of his will. Also, Romans 9 is cited often.

Starting point is 00:21:24 Romans 9, 11 through 13. Though they were not yet born, he's talking about Jacob and Esau, and had done nothing either good or. bad. In order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works, but because of him who calls, she was told their mother, the older will serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob, I loved, but Esau, I hate it. So obviously, as Paul is writing to the church in Rome, they are having some of the same feelings of injustice. Hey, like, how is it possible that God chooses people who are going to be saved and who are not going to be saved? And Paul basically says, Like, can the clay say to the potter, why did you make me this way? And he answers that God made vessels

Starting point is 00:22:07 of wrath and vessels of mercy. And then he gives this explanation of Jacob and Esau. All right, in just a second, we will get to limited atonement. This is the L in Tulip, limited atonement, which says that Christ accomplished salvation for the elect on the cross, not the whole world. We'll get into that in just a second. Let me pause and tell you about our next sponsor. In that, is Shopify. If you are a business owner, if you've got a product to sell, if you've got a business online and you don't have time to set it up, to make sure that everything looks right, that you've got product descriptions, that you've got everything that goes into selling things online, then you just need to use Shopify. It's what millions and millions of people use to make the online

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Starting point is 00:23:43 Shopify.com slash alley. That's Shopify.com slash alley. Okay. So this is maybe one of the most controversial aspects of Calvinism, I would say, limited atonement says that Christ accomplished salvation only for the elect, so only for those that God chose before the foundation of the world, not the entire world, whereas the other perspective, which will get into Armenianism in just a little bit, is that Christ died for everyone and it's our responsibility to choose to have that blood that was poured out for us on the cross cover us. So Calvinism, teaches that when Jesus died on the cross, he actually secured complete salvation for the exact people that God had chosen. So limited atonement, the elect and his death was perfectly effective

Starting point is 00:24:38 for them. Hebrews 1014, for by a single offering, he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. So context here, Calvinist would say, is that Christ one sacrifice does not just offer perfection. It is perfected for all of time, the same people who are being sanctified. The group that is perfected is identical to the group for whom he offered himself. And then you have John 10, 14 through 15. I am the good shepherd. I know my own Jesus says and my own know me, just as the father knows me and I know the father and I lay down my life for the sheep. The eye and tulip is irresistible grace. This means God's call to the elect always succeeds. Calvinism says that when God decides to save one

Starting point is 00:25:28 of his chosen people, the Holy Spirit powerfully and sweetly opens their blind eyes and changes their heart so that they will willingly and gladly come to Christ. So it is not possible Calvinism would say for someone to be captured by the grace of God and then wrestle themselves free. That his grace, when it meets someone, when it captures someone, is completely irresistible. Now, someone may have a spiritual experience, Calvinism would say, Someone may look like they're walking the walk. Someone might be interested in the Bible. Someone may even preach the Bible very well. And understand all of these doctrines and understand Calvinism, but still not actually be saved by the grace of God. But Calvinism posits when you have been captivated by the grace of God, you do not have the power to resist it because of God's total sovereign. Now, again, the other side would say, no, God's grace is there, and it's trying to convict someone, but someone still does have the power to resist it.

Starting point is 00:26:38 John 637, all that the father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me, I will never cast out. So Calvinists would use this to say that not only can you not resist God's grace, an initial salvation, but you also can't escape his salvation, that there's nothing you contributed to your salvation. So there's nothing that you can do to get rid of your salvation either. And that leads to the last one. P, perseverance of the saints.

Starting point is 00:27:07 This promises that true believers who have been captivated by God's grace by no merit of their own, no contribution of their own will be kept by God forever. So this is the belief that you cannot lose your salvation. There are many Protestants who do not hold to this belief, who do believe you can lose your salvation. But Calvinism teaches that everyone that God is truly saved will be kept safe by God's power all the way to the end, that they might stumble,

Starting point is 00:27:36 they might lose their way sometimes, it might look like the pilgrim's progress, there will be temptation, there will be sin, but nothing that they do can escape as well. Now, they would also say that someone who is truly following Christ, that because the Holy Spirit lives in them, there will be fruit, there will be a hatred of, sin. There will be a repentance of sin. That doesn't mean there will be perfection every day in their

Starting point is 00:28:00 moral life, but that they will be sanctified. Calvinists do not generally believe that someone just prays a prayer and walks down the aisle and says, you know, yes, I'm a sinner and I need to be saved and that they can go on living like nothing really happened. That person is truly a Christian. It's not that Calvinists would say you have to contribute your righteousness to be saved, but they would say you have to look at the fruit of someone's life in order to be able to tell that that person has truly been saved by the Holy Spirit and is being sanctified by Christ. Philippians 1-6, they would say, proves this, and I am sure of this, God through Paul writes, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Another modern name for Tulip for these five points is the doctrines of grace. You may have heard that before from people like R.C. Sprole or people like John MacArthur or John Piper, all of these people.

Starting point is 00:29:09 are considered to be reformed teachers today. So what is the influence of Calvinism? Well, if we go a little bit more deeply into who Calvin was, that kind of gives us an indication. So if we go back to 1533 because of Calvin's contact with people who opposed the Roman Catholic Church, Calvin had to flee Paris because this was a very Catholic city, of course, course, and he was not safe there. Many also believe that this was the year he experienced a sudden unexpected conversion, specifically to the reformed faith. In 1536, Calvin officially broke with

Starting point is 00:29:52 Roman Catholic Church and planned to settle in Strasbourg. But then he ended up in Geneva. That's where he stayed. He was a lecture and a preacher in Geneva. He became very popular there. He preached what is called still today, expository sermons without notes, often 10 times every two weeks and delivered three theology lectures, weekly wrote extensive biblical commentaries. He also trained pastors. Calvin's Geneva became known as the university there became known as the most perfect school of Christ that ever was on earth since the days of the apostles. according to another reformer, a Scottish reformer, by the name of John Knox.

Starting point is 00:30:40 Historian Mark Knoll says if Luther sounded the trumpet for reform, Calvin orchestrated the score by which the reformed by which the reformed became a part of Western civilization. I think that's a really good way to put why understanding Calvinism for any person is important. This is what R.C. Sproles said. John Calvin stands alone in church history as the master of systematizing, biblical truth with doctrine. He was driven by a desire to interpret all the details of biblical revelation, rarely if ever. Have we found a systematic theologian? So looking at the entire system of Christianity through scripture. Systematic theology by Wayne Grudom is an awesome resource. There are a lot of systematic theologians and some are super trustworthy and thorough.

Starting point is 00:31:26 Able to quote lengthy passages of the Bible with one breath, followed by a considerable recitation by memory of the writings of St. Augustine, Calvin mixed his mastery of linguistics with his heart set on fire by the word of God. There are a lot of quotes that I could read that are in my notes about Calvinism. But what I think is important, I wasn't even planning to talk about this, but this is just an aside. What's important to know is that this is actually the predominant worldview that built America and not the modern evangelicalism that we see today. And so a lot of people will say, I've seen this from some of my Catholic friends, that it is, like, Protestantism is dispensationalism, is the reason why they would say America

Starting point is 00:32:18 puts Israel first, and they would say has some, like, wrong idea of Israel. But Calvinism is not dispensationalist. Now, there are some Calvinists who would call themselves dispensationalists probably, like John MacArthur. Now, some people would quibble about whether or not John McArthur was truly reformed. And if he believed in the doctrines of grace, because he was dispensationalist, I know I'm throwing around a lot of just like Christianese that may not matter to you and might be kind of confusing. But dispensationalism is pretty new.

Starting point is 00:32:52 Go back and listen to my Israel episode, to my past in times episodes, to, um, understand what dispensationalism is, but this is actually more of the influential worldview that has kind of shaped the Protestant and American conscience for a very long time. If you go back again to the history of Calvinism and the influence that it had on theologians, on seminaries throughout Europe, and then you look at the English Puritans who were deeply Calvinistic. They carried this reformed faith about justification by faith alone, namely, and even the doctrines of grace in Tulip into North America. And then by 1776, roughly two-thirds of American colonists belong to Calvinist-leaning churches. This is according to Joel Beakey,

Starting point is 00:33:47 who is awesome, an awesome scholar and preacher on all of this. Calvinism differed from Lutheranism, so Martin Luther on the Lord's Supper. So Lutherans tend to believe in the true presence of the Eucharist, the role of God's law, guide for believers versus mainly convicting sinners, and the scope of predestination. And this is an argument that I hear a lot from my Catholic friends, that the fruit of Protestantism, just look at this. It's division. You have all these people who are reading the Bible and they're interpreting things differently.

Starting point is 00:34:19 Isn't that a case to be made for the Roman Catholic Church and the authority of the the Magisterium and the authority of the Pope because look at all of this division and look how I understand what you're saying certainly I don't revel in arguments and division especially disagreement on really important things but we would argue disagreement in pursuit of the truth is worth it like you could if we're just to use an analogy here like we could also say like isn't it sad that we had this bloody revolution of America versus England like wouldn't it have just been better if we just stayed unified. At least we would have all, you know, shared our nationality and shared our common culture of being Englishmen, even if we were under the tyranny of King George.

Starting point is 00:35:05 Again, this is an analogy here. We would say, no, it was worth the division. Like, it was worth the tearing apart. It was worth the Declaration of Independence. It was worth the bloody revolution, but because what we got was better. Because, yes, now there are states that have, have different constitutions. Yes, with all of this freedom of religion and speech, there's all kinds of conflicts, but we believe that the freedom of speech and freedom of religion, if it gives people the opportunity to seek what is good and true without possibly the misguided authority of the state, then that's a good thing. Again, that is an analogy. You don't have to agree with it. Of course, as a Catholic, I don't expect you to, but I'm trying

Starting point is 00:35:46 to get you to understand the Protestant perspective of why we are okay with denominations. Do we all wish that we agreed absolutely? But I'm so glad that we have been given access to and the authority of understanding scripture in the best way that we possibly can. Yes, under the authority of our pastors, with the help of theologians, and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is imperfectly as we possibly can. But that is what we are trying to accomplish. And so when we look at some American Calvinists, we can see someone like Jonathan Edwards, who preached the seminal sermon sinners in the hands of an angry God. I have that little booklet at home so different than the kind of sermons we hear so often today that God doesn't want you to have it hard, that he wants you to feel good about yourself. You know, the God of self, the God of self-esteem sermons that we hear. That is if you feel good about yourself and you love yourself, then everything will be fine. And that is what God is most concerned about is just cheese.

Starting point is 00:36:52 hearing you along to fulfill your desires. Well, that is certainly not the God of Scripture, but it's definitely not the Calvinist God. It's not the Puritan God. And actually, in the little book on the Christian life by John Calvin, he has an incredible, I wish I had it in front of me, he has an incredible passage about the dangers of self-love, because in fact, anytime you see this phrase, lovers of self and scripture is an indication of the evil of the in times, not something that is beneficial. It's actually something that we are trying to get rid of as we fill ourselves instead with the love of Christ that helps us see rightly our own worth and the worth of other people. The Great Awakening began in Massachusetts in America in 1734 to 1735. Jonathan Edwards

Starting point is 00:37:41 really spearheaded that and he was affected by the doctrines of Calvinism. We are still living kind of in the shadow of these great awakenings. You also had someone like George Whitfield. He was an Anglican evangelist. He arrived in America. He preached these open-air sermons on things like total depravity, the tea and tulip. And then if you go back to the UK, you have someone like Charles Spurgeon. He was also a Calvinistic preacher still massively influential today.

Starting point is 00:38:12 His massive influence demolished this myth that Calvinists can't be passionate evangelist. His church baptized thousands, supported dozens of missionaries, prove that strong doctrine and fervent evangelism goes together. And that probably speaks to a question that I think a lot of people have about if you are Calvinist and believe in this predestination, why would you pray and why would you evangelize? You've got Martin Lloyd-Jones. You've got J.I. Packer. You've got R.C. Sprole. You've got John McArthur. You've got John Piper.

Starting point is 00:38:45 And then, of course, we've got Voddy Bacom, our dear brother that we just lost. You have people like James White and Paul Washer and Jeff Durbin, who all consider themselves reformed, and I believe consider themselves somewhere on the spectrum of Calvinism. So still extremely prominent in America today in shaping what we think about the Bible and what we think about salvation. But let's get into specifically predestination, this very controversial. point and then we will get into what the Bible says and also what other belief systems within Christianity and within Protestantism actually believe. I have a lot of very good friends, theologians that I respect that are not Calvinist. And so we will get into that in just a second.

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Starting point is 00:41:19 did not start when the world started. He has always existed. And he predestined before our time began who was going to be saved and who was going to not be saved. Who was going to spend eternity in hell? And like this is tough for me. Like this is really tough for me. Because and so like I will just tell you because I understand the the reaction to that. reaction that I had when I was 12, I fully understand and still sympathize with that because what father or mother would create a child knowing that their soul will be spent in torment forever and ever. And how is it possible to say that that person deserves that wrath and deserves that punishment if they did not have any contribution to being created. And if we read that God is loving,

Starting point is 00:42:22 if we read that God is good, if we read that God is kind, and we know he is purposely creating babies, embryos, knitting them together and bringing them to life only to send them to hell eternally, like that is really difficult. And so that is why people have a very hard time. And so that is why people have a very hard time with this belief that God truly chose whom was going to be damned and whom was going to be saved before time began. So I just want to like validate your questions about that, that I'm not dismissive of those things because I think that's a really good question and something that we should be wrestling with. So here's how Calvinist would explain it though. The doctrine of predestination is the teaching that before the creation of the world, God decided the eternal destiny of all rational

Starting point is 00:43:15 creatures, so human beings and all angels. God's choice to save certain sinners by grace is called election. And his choice to leave certain sinners to the damnation they deserve is reprobation. Predestination is part of God's decree, his eternal purpose in which he has decided all that will take place ordaining everything for the manifestation of his glory. So this is for Crossway, old Beakey and Paul Smalley wrote this. Many Christians, including reformed theologian Jonathan Edward, officially found the doctor of predestination disturbing, but later came to see its beauty and comfort. Some reject this predestination argument because they think it's just human speculation.

Starting point is 00:44:00 And of course, they also believe that it's disturbing or it's unjust and God cannot be unjust. There are many passages that talk about God's elect. We already talked about Romans 9. We talked about Ephusions 1, 4 through 6, but there's also Romans 832 through 34, Calvinists would say, He who did not spare his own son, but gave him up for us all. How will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against God's elect?

Starting point is 00:44:30 It is God who justifies who is to condemn. And then there is also Romans 1128. As regards to the gospel, they are enemies for your sake, unbelievers, but as regards to election, they are beloved for the sake of their four fathers, for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 1st Timothy 521 in the presence of God in Christ and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels. I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging. Therefore, I endure everything for the sake of the elect.

Starting point is 00:45:09 2.10 says that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Titus 1.1. Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness. 2. Peter 110, therefore brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election. for if you practice these qualities, you will never fail. And we could kind of go on and on there, Acts 1348. And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. This is at the end of Romans 8, verse 29.

Starting point is 00:45:57 For those whom he foreknow, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined, he also called, and those whom he called, he also justified. And those whom he justified, he also glorified. Another part of Romans chapter 9 says this, what shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means. For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.

Starting point is 00:46:30 I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. so then it depends not on human will or exertion but on God who has mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, for this very purpose I have raised you up that I might show my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. So then he has mercy on whomever he wills and he hardens whomever he wills because God hardened Pharaoh's heart. So there are a lot of objections to this. There is the belief that, okay, if God predestined people to go to hell, then he can't be

Starting point is 00:47:01 just. He can't be merciful. He can't be kind. He can't be loving. And therefore, it must not be true. We must have some kind of contribution to our salvation. Calvinists would say, look, God can do what he wants to do. And we evangelize because God has called us to evangelize. We pray because God has called us to pray. we glorify God and we call God good and kind because that's what he tells us that he is. And it's not pointless to pray. It's not pointless to evangelize because they would say God has sovereignly predestined these to be the means by which he accomplishes his purpose. We know throughout scripture that God didn't need his people to walk around the walls of Jericho seven times for him to destroy the walls of Jericho. but he predestined that as a means by which he would accomplish his purpose.

Starting point is 00:47:59 He didn't have to use Moses to write down the Ten Commandments, but he did. He didn't have to, you know, go through the plagues and open up the Red Sea to set his people free, but he did. God uses particular processes and particular means to accomplish his purpose. And we could say, well, that seems pointless if he can do what he wants to do. But Calvinists would say it's not up to us to say how God should, accomplish his will, we are simply to obey. Wayne Grudem in his book systematic theology, he talks about this doctrine of concurrence,

Starting point is 00:48:37 which says that two things can be concurrently true, that God is totally in charge, he is completely sovereign, that nothing escapes his will, that even what Satan does is allowed by God in his power, and also that humans have a real responsibility, that we are actually held accountable for our actions, that we actually bear the weight of our sin. These two things are concurrently true and how they're concurrently true can be a mystery. But Calvinists wouldn't say that we have to completely understand the mystery of concurrence, how God's sovereign character and man's responsibility can be logically and theologically reconciled. We can try to do that. But at the end of the day, we do what Paul

Starting point is 00:49:24 does in Romans 9 and we simply break out and praise and the glory and the foreknowledge and the wisdom of God. And a lot of people say, well, doesn't this lead to worry about, well, how do you know you're chosen? How do you know you're really saved? Look, if you are a Christian, if you have been captured by the Holy Spirit and because of him or walking in Christ, then you have been chosen. You have been saved. We simply have to trust and obey. Calvinists would go to Psalm 115. 3, our God is in the heavens. He does all that he pleases.

Starting point is 00:50:01 Isaiah 46, 9 through 10, for I am God, there is no other. I am God, there is none like me. 2 Corinthians 4.6, for God who said, let light shine out of the darkness, has shown in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. So it is God who actually gives us the knowledge. He gives us the grace that is required to be saved. is nothing that we do on our own. So Calvinists have much scripture that they offer in defense of their belief of tulip. But what does the other side say? As I said, people that I really respect oppose Calvinism. So we'll get into that in just a second. Let me tell you about our next sponsor.

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Starting point is 00:51:25 That's patreon mobile.com slash alley code alley. All right. Here is my very good and wise friend, apologist and evangelist, Frank Turrick, stating his opposition to Calvinism. Stop four. See, the ultimate problem with Calvinism, hard five-point Calvinism, in my view,

Starting point is 00:51:46 is it makes the world a sham because we really don't have a free choice, but God is telling us that we ought to choose him when we can't choose him because he hasn't chosen us at all. And secondly, it makes God the author of, of evil. In fact, let me give you a debate that took place 40 years ago at Dallas Theological Seminary. It was between Norman Geisler, my mentor, and a guy by name of John

Starting point is 00:52:07 Gersner. And at one point, Geisler turned to Gersenor and he says, he said, does man have free will? And Gersner said, yes, man has free will to do what he desires. But God gives him the desire of his heart. So Gisler said, who gave Adam the desire to sin? And Gersner said, mystery. And Geisler said contradiction. I love Frank Turek. And I think that we could have a really interesting discussion about this because I would have questions. So here's how I see it. We know that God is completely in control, right? That there is nothing that his power cannot do. that there is no realm in which he is inept, that his power is not limited in any way. He's all powerful.

Starting point is 00:52:58 I think all Christians would agree on that. He is all knowing. He is omnipresent. And if these things are true that we read about God throughout Scripture, that he is completely powerful, that he knows everything, he can do anything, and that he's everywhere at once, then I have a hard time seeing how that doesn't also apply to someone's salvation. Now, you could say, here's what I hear a lot, that he knows who is going to be saved, but he doesn't choose.

Starting point is 00:53:33 But for someone who is all powerful, is that not the same thing? Here's an analogy. Say you have a babysitter. This is kind of a disturbing analogy, but you've got a babysitter who is watching a two-year-old. Now, the babysitter is sitting there watching the two-year-old. old fall into the pool. She sits there. She doesn't do anything. The two-year-old drowns. Now, did the babysitter push the child into the pool? Did the babysitter insist that the child goes out into the pool? No, she didn't do any of those things. But she sat there, her hands free,

Starting point is 00:54:07 seeing this child, knowing that they're about to fall into the pool, and she does nothing. Now, is that person, is that babysitter responsible? Yes. She is, she is, She had the power to stop it and she did not. Now, you could argue that she didn't choose that, but because she had the power to stop it and didn't, she kind of did, right? The only way that she would be let off the hook there is if her hands were literally tied behind her back or there was a good reason why she did not see this happening. But we know with God that his hands are not tied behind his back, that he does know. everything. He does see everything and he is all powerful. So I don't see how we can reconcile God's all powerful nature with this idea that there are some people that he just can't save even though

Starting point is 00:55:03 he really wants to. Because the opposing view, the Armenian view, is that God died to save everyone and that he wants to save everyone, but not everyone is going to choose that. So within that view, some things that God wants to happen, something that's important in salvation, but for some reason God's power cannot overcome that person's will. Whereas the Calvinists would say, no, no, no, God is all powerful. His grace is so powerful that that that person, whatever their will is, whatever their rebellion is, cannot overcome God's grace. Now, Armenians would say, this is, this is named after someone named Jacob Arminius, who also lived in the 16th century. Now, he originally believed in Calvinism, but then later rejected that.

Starting point is 00:55:54 They shared some beliefs, but they're different. 1 Timothy 2.3 through 4, this is good, and it is pleasing the side of God or Savior, who desires all people to be saved, so that's where they would go and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2. Peter 3.9, the Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. So that's where they would go. They would say, look, God desires all people to be saved, but not everyone is going to choose this. And because not everyone is going to choose it, then that must mean that God is just not able to accomplish everything that he wants.

Starting point is 00:56:38 Now, I think you could probably reconcile those two views by saying, yes, God loves all people, but we also read that God hates sinners. God wants all people to be saved, and maybe some could argue, yes, in a greater sense, he desires all people to be saved, but that doesn't necessarily negate that he chose some people to be saved and chose some people to be vessels of wrath and to be damned. Now, I think from the Armenian perspective, you could say God is still all powerful. He is still all sovereign, but he has allowed things to happen that he does not ultimately want to happen. He allows rape to happen. He allows evil to happen. He allows war and oppression and corruption to happen. He doesn't want these things.

Starting point is 00:57:24 He doesn't cause these things. He doesn't author these things. But he allows these things to happen for his greater glory. Like I think both Armenians and Calvinist would agree on that. Calvinist, however, would say, yeah, that includes. him choosing some people to go to hell, Armenians might say, no, he's allowing some people to go to hell, but he doesn't want that and that, they might say, I'm kind of making this argument for them, I don't know if they are or not, that he predestined the means by which they can be saved,

Starting point is 00:57:58 and he has sovereignly chosen to give people free will to have faith in Christ and accept his gift of salvation and he wants people to exercise that free will to choose salvation knowing that some won't. When you talk about it like that, the views really aren't that different. Some could argue that it is a semantic argument. I do think it's more than that. I do think that the questions about Calvinism and this determinism and this fatalism are valid and understanding. at the same time, you really can't escape Romans 9. You can't escape the language about predestination and election and God's sovereignty. If God knows something and he can do something, then he is choosing to at least allow the outcome. And here's kind of how I think of all of it,

Starting point is 00:59:01 that God is true and he is right and he exists independent of what I think about him. So if God exists and God says he's kind and God says he's merciful and God says he's sovereign and God says that we are predestined and God says that there is an elect and God says that he hates evil and that he hates evil doers and God says that he desires all people to be saved. And he says in John 316 that God so loved the world that all who believe in him will not perish but have everlasting life. If God says all of these things, then somehow all of these things are true. All of these things are true, regardless of my ability to understand them, regardless of my ability to create the logical human connections between all of these things. If all of these things are

Starting point is 00:59:55 true, independent of me, then I simply have to accept them and do the next right thing in faith. If God tells me to evangelize, I evangelize. If God tells me to pray, I pray. If God tells me that he is seeking and saving the loss and that I am a part of that, then I seek to be a part of that. However, I can. Regardless of whether you believe that God actively chose people to go to hell or to heaven, all of these things are true and the commands for the Christian are the same. I think that they are worthy debates to have. The beautiful thing I think about Protestantism is that we can bring scripture, we can bring the authority of the Bible, and we can do our best to do the iron sharpens iron thing and better understand who God is

Starting point is 01:00:45 through the word that he is revealed to us. But at the end of the day, I simply have to submit to the fact that all of these things are true, and even though sometimes they seem contradictory that doesn't change my calling or my purpose as a Christian. We are all called in Jesus's last earthly dictate to us to go therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. We are all told that salvation, this is indisputable, is a free gift of grace, that we are justified by grace alone. Through faith alone, in Christ alone for God's glory alone. I think all Protestants agree on that. The mechanism, whether it's God knowing, but then deciding to use this mechanism of free will to allow people

Starting point is 01:01:41 to choose salvation, or whether it is God saying, no, no, no, that free will thing when it comes to salvation, like that's, that's, that's not something. I'm completely sovereign over the salvation. and I have specifically one by one predestined the people who are going to heaven. Whichever one of those things, if it's one of those two things that is being debated, is true, the calling for the Christian does not change. I do want to say something about the fruit of Calvinism that I've kind of seen over the past several years in just a second as I close this out. but let me tell you about our last sponsor for the day. And that is Jace Medical.

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Starting point is 01:03:44 what the reformation was i was not taught about martin luther i was not taught about john calvin if anything if I heard anything about Calvinism, it was probably negative. I think a lot of evangelicals mostly are Armenian today and largely dispensationalists have a little bit of a different view of free will and God's sovereignty. I really didn't know what reformed theology was until maybe I was a junior in high school. And I don't think I would have called myself reformed, but I started learning about people like C.S. Lewis, which we could debate his doctrines in what he actually believed. John Piper, all of these people in what was called, I didn't realize this young, restless, and reformed movement. This resurgence of expository preaching just exploded

Starting point is 01:04:35 in all of these Protestant church plants across the country. Acts 29 used to be like a big part of that. And expository preaching is preaching verse by verse. And so, So, you know, we're going through the book of Romans. It might take us 12 years, but we're going to go verse by verse. In fact, if you listen to John MacArthur, who has been an expository preacher for, or was, he recently died, but for a very long time, he, if you listen to his sermon on like Romans 1-1, the entire sermon was about Paul. Like the first Paul. Like that was the entire sermon talking about who Paul was, why that authorship is important and what his testimony was. And so that's expository. And that I think about people like Matt Chandler and others who were a big part of this kind of young, restless reformed this without, I don't know, me even knowing it. They were kind of popularizing, expository preaching and reformed theology. So I started learning more about that. Then someone gave me my ESP study Bible when I was a sophomore in college. And that really revolutionized how I read the Bible, my understanding of the end times, my understanding of the end times,

Starting point is 01:05:48 my understanding of God's sovereignty. Again, I probably did not know the five solas at the time or Tulip. But ESV, that version and the study Bible is very reformed in its interpretation and commentary on scripture. That really shaped what I thought. It wasn't until after college that I really learned, like, what the Reformation is, why we should be celebrating it, what John Calvin is. And so when I started studying Tulip and Calvinism and all of these things, it was very enlightening for me to understand the history of Protestantism, the history of the Great Awakenings, the history of the interpretation of scripture, the Puritan movement, Jonathan Edwards, the history of evangelism, and how different that was from a lot of modern evangelicalism. Now, when it comes to the fruit of Calvinism, there's a lot of good fruit and reformed theology. a love of scripture, a desire to see Christ glorified, an understanding of the theology of suffering and self-denial. That really comes from like the Puritan history. I think there's so much good in that.

Starting point is 01:06:55 But also, I am so thankful for modern evangelicalism, which really isn't Calvinistic in nature, is much more Armenian. Even if I would rather have an expository sermon than here are three points and the altar call, I think much of the fruit of evangelicalism to try to Christianize America as much as possible to build these Christian schools, to have a large influence as the church in our local communities has been really beautiful. Like if you look at Charlie Kirk's life and look at his legacy and look at who eulogized him and the gospel that was preached at his memorial in Phoenix. You see that the fruit of evangelicalism really is such a strong desire for people just to know Christ and for people to know the gospel. Now, I believe that many, many Calvinists that I know and respect a lot have that exact same desire and they know their stuff so well. And you guys probably know that I am a Calvinist as well if you've been following me for any amount of time. However, I do think a weakness in Calvinism that I've seen, especially over the past few years, is just a hardness of heart and a callousness towards the unbeliever.

Starting point is 01:08:17 I'm not saying everyone, and I'm not speaking and I'm not trying to speak in like generally sweeping terms, but this is a weakness of Calvinism is a pride in our theology, a pride in understanding every jot and tittle of doctrine. and never allowing that doctrine to give us the humility and just the desire for the glory of Christ and for other people to come to know him that it should be giving us. In fact, some of the people that are like the angriest that I know that seem to be the most prideful in their own righteousness that I know are Calvinists, which is ironic because the first tenet of Calvinism is total depravity. And the reliance on Christ, like for all holiness. I mean, there's even a name for Cage Stage Calvinist, which I totally understand when someone realizes, oh my gosh, you can read the Bible this way and see all these doctrines this way.

Starting point is 01:09:11 It's very exciting. You become so obsessed with your doctrine. And I saw a clip the other day of Paul Tripp, whom I'm sure I don't agree with on everything, say, like, he said, you know, Satan is happy to give you your theology. Like he's happy to give you your obsession with the labyrinthian nature of the doctrines of grace or reformed theology as long as he could have your heart. And he was talking about two men that he had counseled who understood the depths of theology, like understood the Bible, but they were some of the angriest and most prideful people he knew. And I think that there is a danger there because of the, I think, beautiful, like complexly. of scripture to get so caught up in that and to get so prideful in our understanding of that, especially in the Calvinist world that we really forget that Christianity really is about love,

Starting point is 01:10:09 speaking the truth and love through the gospel, being used by God to save souls, to loving the lost and helping the poor and the vulnerable. That's not some social justice talk coming from me. I just sometimes think that's lost and the obsession that we Calvinists have when it comes to theology. And some of the ugly, ugly fruit that I have seen from people who call themselves Calvinist over the past few years has really been just, it's left a horrible taste in my mouth. But at the end of the day, here's what I want to say for anyone no matter what you believe, Catholic, Protestant, Calvinist or not.

Starting point is 01:10:51 It's about what's true. What is true? independent of what people who say that they believe a certain way, independent of how they act. Like independent of their personality or their persona on X, independent of the pastor who fails you, independent of any false teaching that you hear from someone in your camp, what is true?

Starting point is 01:11:18 What does the Bible actually say about God and about salvation? That's the most important thing. not who the representatives are of these things, but like what is actually true? Let what is true take root in your life and bear fruit in your life and focus on Christ and focus on his salvation. I do think it's so important to understand these things and debate these things and know these things. But at the end of the day, again, the gospel is for you. And Jesus did die on the cross to save us from our sins so that whoever believes in him by grace. through faith will not perish and go to hell when we die, but have eternal life.

Starting point is 01:12:00 I don't think we need to get caught up. Am I chosen or not? The beautiful thing, though, about election is that when you become a Christian, you are saved forever and ever, and there's nothing that you can do to lose that. Those who leave Christianity were never really saved in the first place because God is all powerful. and he who began a good work and you will be faithful to complete it. That's, I think, where we can get our comfort in all of this.

Starting point is 01:12:32 So I know that was a lot. There's a lot more that I could have said. There's so much on Calvinism. You can look on Ligonier, you can look at Desiring God. Get a little book, the little book on the Christian life by John Calvin, no matter where you stand. Like, it's just really, really wise and really good. I hope that give you some understanding and some basis when people say Calvin. to know what they're talking about. All right, we will be back with an incredible testimony

Starting point is 01:12:58 on Friday. I know you guys are going to love it. I'll see you then.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1274 | Predestined to Hell? Calvinism Explained

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