Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1278 | Former FDA Official Unveils Pharma’s Shocking Lies About Depression | Dr. Josef Witt-Doerring

Episode Date: December 12, 2025

Allie interviews Dr. Josef Witt-Doerring, a psychiatrist and former FDA drug safety officer. He unveils the truth about Big Pharma and the detrimental side effects of medications for mental illnesses. SSRIs cause more harm than good; they blunt emotions, breed dependency, and often backfire long-term. Dr. Witt-Doerring advises patients to pursue holistic health that includes a balanced diet, sleep, exercise, and therapy. He and his wife have started TaperClinic, where they help people come off medications and find real solutions to their problems. Join us for an eye-opening discussion about the dark side of the pharmaceutical industry. Check out more about Dr. Witt-Doerring's TaperClinic here: ⁠taperclinic.com⁠ Buy Allie's book "Toxic Empathy: How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion": ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.toxicempathy.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ --- Timecodes: (00:00) Intro (09:45) Misdiagnosing Mental Illness (19:20) Drug Safety Officer (25:05) Corruption in Medical Academia (27:50) Wake-Up Call (34:35) Problems with SSRIs (46:00) Short-Term vs. Long-Term Medication (53:50) TaperClinic --- Today's Sponsors: PreBorn — Would you consider a gift to save babies in a big way? Your gift will be used to save countless babies for years to come. To donate, dial #250 and say the keyword BABY or donate securely at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠preborn.com/allie⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Good Ranchers — Give a reason to gather. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠goodranchers.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to start gifting, and while you’re there, treat yourself with your own subscription to America’s best meat. And when you use the code ALLIE, you’ll get $40 off your first order. EveryLife — Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠everylife.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code ALLIE10 to get 10% off your first order today!  Patriot Mobile — Switching to Patriot Mobile is easier than ever. Activate in minutes from your home or office. Keep your number, keep your phone, or upgrade. Go to ⁠⁠⁠patriotmobile.com/allie⁠⁠⁠ or call 972-PATRIOT, and use promo code ALLIE for a free month of service! Cozy Earth — Give the gift of everyday luxury this holiday season. Head to ⁠cozyearth.com⁠ and use the code RELATABLE for up to 40% off — just be sure to place your order by December 12 for guaranteed Christmas delivery. --- Episodes you might like:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Ep 1189 | SSRIs Are Rewiring Babies’ Brains — and Killing Their Moms | Guest: Dr. Adam Urato ⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1189-ssris-are-rewiring-babies-brains-and-killing/id1359249098?i=1000708507649⁠ Ep 821 | Why Antidepressants Don’t Fix Depression | Guest: Dr. Roger McFillin ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-821-why-antidepressants-dont-fix-depression-guest/id1359249098?i=1000616890403⁠⁠ Ep 822 | The Big Money Behind Big Medicine | Guest: Dr. Roger McFillin ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-822-the-big-money-behind-big-medicine-guest-dr/id1359249098?i=1000617050991⁠⁠ Ep 1031 | Psychiatry Is Killing People | Guest: Dr. Roger McFillin ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1031-psychiatry-is-killing-people-guest-dr-roger/id1359249098?i=1000661830317⁠⁠ --- Buy Allie's book "You're Not Enough (and That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love": ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.alliebethstuckey.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Relatable merchandise: Use promo code ALLIE10 for a discount: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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This is a fascinating, completely enlightening conversation about what is really happening at our med schools. in the pharmaceutical industry, what is going on in the government that is lying to people about these SSRIs. You've got to listen to this full conversation. It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use code Alley at checkout. That's good ranchers.com code Alley. Dr. Yosef, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. Could you tell everyone who you are and what you do? Really happy to be here, Allie. So I'm a psychiatrist, and what I do now is I help people come off psychiatric medications.

And so I guess I went through this sort of roundabout journey where I did traditional psychiatry. I ended up in the pharmaceutical industry developing drugs and then in the FDA regulating them. And, you know, the abbreviated version of that is like once you see how the sausage is made in the factory, you're just like, I'm never going to touch that again. and so I looked at the evidence behind a lot of it and I really think one of the best things that we can be doing right now is actually helping people come off the medications and find more sustainable ways to address their mental health and so that's what I do. Okay. Let's back up. How did you get into psychiatry?

I got into psychiatry just because I was naturally interested in personal development, philosophy, psychology. It was something I was always into from a young age. and you grew up in Sydney I grew up in Sydney Australia yeah and I ended up in medical school and this interest in personal development stuck and then I started thinking

oh wow you know there's this thing called psychiatry where I could merge my interest in medicine in the body but also this enduring interest that I've had in self-help and so I became a psychiatrist and I had this idea that I would go into training and I would see, you know, these patients and I'd be like this quarterback and we'd be helping them, you know, with their relationships or with their physical health, with their

diet, and maybe with their sleep, really getting to understand them. But what I saw when I got to my intern year and then throughout residency was it was not like that at all. It started, it really looked like a conveyor belt, like a production line. Like, patients would come in, they'd fill out this questionnaire, they'd get a diagnosis, you really wouldn't understand that much about their life, and then you would give them a medication. And I'm like, you know, where are all these other people who should be helping? You know, it was really hard to get access to therapists. You know, we hardly ever talked, hardly ever talked about nutrition or sleep, faith or, you know, values on how to live. It was like, you have this mental illness. You know,

we diagnosed you on this checklist and don't worry we've got the solution right here and intuitively I was just like something just seems off about that like how could you actually help someone if you don't really understand their life and their problems but asking those questions was kind of dissuaded it was just like you know you really don't want to go there yosef like it's you know these patients you know they're stigmatized enough we have to be compassionate to them. We don't want to bring up, you know, we don't want to make them question the medications, you know, the FDA has approved them. They're safe and effective. You know, this is what the experts say. And so, yeah, there was this constant, like, sort of push away from, you know, push from academia

to not really, like, kind of dig at this question about, like, is it really, like, a sustainable way to, like, help people by just, like, drugging the symptoms? Right. And so, you know, I kept on poking at that and I eventually decided that there's enough here for me to be like really suspicious about what's going on. But I need to become an expert in the area. I mean, I'm probably 26 when I'm in internship. Where did you go to medical school? University of Queensland. Okay.

And then I did my residency at Baylor College of Medicine. Okay. Okay, okay, so you stayed in Australia for med school and then you came to the States. Yes. For, and you said Baylor. Baila, yeah, Houston. Okay, I just had to interpret the accent. Baila.

I thought you said, Viola. Okay, Baylor. So that's where you started seeing, okay, this is like a conveyor belt to use your words, that people come in, they say, I feel like this. They check things off a list and that just felt suspect to you. Did you notice that also in medical school in Australia? Well, I did, but I wasn't clued into it in the same way. I mean, I just, you know, the medical school education that a lot of doctors get is that there's this thing called depression. It's probably biological and we have these drugs called SSRIs and they increase serotonin and there's probably

something about that that's helping people and that's pretty much it. Yeah. And so you're just like, okay, okay, you know, whatever. You know, this is what my professor is. are teaching me. Yeah. But that like interface where you're at, because what really brings it to life is when you're working with patients in the clinic and you start noticing things, you're like, well, okay, so I put this person on, you know, a low dose of lexapro, which is a very common SSRI. And can you tell us, remind us what SSRI stands for? So it's a selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitor. Okay. And serotonin is a hormone. It's a hormone, yeah, it's, it's a hormone in the brain. that is involved in your mood and for a really long time doctors have been telling people that

if you're anxious or depressed it's probably because you have low serotonin it's just a very simplified and reductionalistic way of understanding it which is which is wrong as well yeah and we'll get into that but lexapro is one of those and so super common drug um so you'd give them lexapro and then you know they can't and yeah it would work initially they'd say okay i feel you know i feel a little bit less anxious this is good and then they come back six months later and they're just like i only feel it 10 percent or i don't even feel like it's doing anything anymore and so you increase the dose and then they come back a year later and the same thing happens and you're starting to notice that when i put people on these medications for quite a large group of them they just become tolerant to the effect

you know we're not really correcting any chemical imbalance it's just like the the drug effect is wearing off yeah and then you would start to see people like stacking on drugs and so now you're maxed out on the lexapro we're going to put you on some syracquel but now you're kind of fatigued and we're going to add like another one on and so it's really once you get in there you see that this kind of narrative about hey you know it's it's really simple you just put them on this drug you know it's not you know, they're wearing off of a time and we're stacking them on top of each other. And patients, they just don't look good. I mean, you would look at people, they'd have like a list of five different medications.

I mean, they're hardly doing well at all. I mean, they're blunted, they're having problems sleeping, you know, their sex drive is annihilated, they're gaining weight. And, you know, what I was always told at the time was like, oh, this person just has really bad depression. You know, the depression is just morphing. It was like mild at the start when they went through the divorce, you know, but this scary biological thing is just like changed. You know, don't look at the fact that, you know, they've been on drugs for, you know, 25 years now, like pretty high potency drugs.

Don't look at that as maybe one of the reasons why they're not doing well. You know, it's just their underlying condition that's morphing, which is obviously like a really easy way to just, you know, stack on more drugs, just to increase doses and really not have. have to look at the fact that the model is broken. Yeah. And so when I started to see that as well, like, one is like the theoretical stuff just didn't make sense what I was being taught. But like in practice, I'm just like, my patients aren't getting better. Yeah.

There's something really off about this way of trying to help people. Right. And when we're diagnosing other things that you medicate, like a thyroid disorder, you have to take a blood test and there's a certain level that if, it's not producing enough T3 or T4, you know, get on artificial, you know, thyroid hormones to help you. But with how you're describing the diagnosis for putting people on these powerful drugs, there's not a blood test or a brain test, right, that shows you exactly this is what your serotonin level is. Is it basically just a guess based on a survey?

Yeah, it is. And so, you know, in the DSM, it's, they make you, pick from nine symptoms. And it's like if you have five out of nine of these symptoms, so it's like low mood, anxiety, sleep problems, like, you know, lack of interest in things, you know, feelings of guilt. It's just like a very arbitrary list of symptoms

that kind of make sense. You know, they make sense for people who are depressed. And the way the people who wrote this diagnostic manual wanted to define depression was like, oh, well, if you just have any combination of five of them out of nine, will say you have depression. And a lot of people don't understand that it is really arbitrary.

And they think that, oh, I have major depressive disorder. And I was given this diagnosis by my doctor or I have clinical depression. It's like they almost assume that there's been this additional step where there was like a blood test or a brain scan or there was something that really like made sense to say that this was a different entity. but no, it's just essentially like a survey. Quick pause to tell you about our first sponsor for the day, one of my favorite sponsors, and that is Cozy Earth. I love their products so much. I love their towels.

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That is really soon by December 12th to make sure that you get this by Christmas. Go to cozy earth.com code relatable. I've always thought of psychiatrists as people who are talking to the client or talking to the patient and giving them advice and trying to understand their circumstance. But what you're describing doesn't sound like that. It sounds kind of like a very quick interaction of someone saying, I feel sad, I don't want to get out of bed, I don't want to eat, and then just prescribing medication. Was there any kind of like relational aspect

when you're meeting with these patients? So psychiatrists in general do a better job of that because we get a lot of training on, you know, relationships and trauma and all of that. Where the big issue is happening in the U.S. and in much of the sort of the Western medicalized world right now is within family medicine, because depression is so common,

80% of our prescriptions are being handed out by family med docs. But even within psychiatry, and many people, if they've ever seen a psychiatrist, will have noticed this, there are incentives that make it so the doctors want to see you in a very short period of time. So, like, the aim of the game is, like, billing insurance in this country. And so you, like if you saw one person for an hour versus four people in an hour and shorter visits, it works out that you essentially make double by seeing four people within an hour. And so even though you have psychiatrists out there who may know a lot about your, you know, prior history with trauma, you know, nutrition, exercise, they may be motivated. And, you know, they want to help you come off, you know, harmful substances and things like that. there's always this like pressure where it's like well I need to kind of turn through these patients to

to do my billing and so that pushes it all in this one direction where it's just like this very in and out interaction where it's like okay we're going up on the drug are we going down or are we holding it the same and that's a very common experience um for people interacting with doctors these days why do you think as you were an intern and you were going to through your residency, you started to be troubled by this process because I'm sure you had, you know, a lot of friends who were going through the same process who weren't really troubled by it. So what is it about you that made you say, oh, I don't know. This is not what I thought it was going to be. Yeah, I've thought about that. And I think it's like personality. And this,

I mean, this can sound kind of funny, right? Like a lot of people would be like, yeah, sure, you know, surely doctors, they just want. want to understand the truth. You know, they just want to get into the issue because they really want to help people. And that is just the main thing that drives them. But there's all these other incentives at play, you know, when you're in a career. And a big one for doctors is to fit in and to kind of... Just like anywhere else. Yeah, just like anywhere else. It's like, okay, well, this is what my professor is saying, you know, this is kind of how things work. I'm not going to sit around and criticize it. I'm not going to, I'm just going to go with the flow. Everyone else is doing that.

And that's like a really strong driver for people. It's just, you know, I want to play nice in the sandbox and fit in with my peers. And I'm just not built that way. Yeah, I don't like that. If I don't understand something, it gets under my skin and I just have to pick and pick and pick. And that's kind of how I was, you know, in the drug companies and the FDA, like really just obsessively trying to figure out what was going on. and yeah and so i'm just why i'm just wired that way yeah yeah that's the common answer i always like to ask the like the troublemakers about that like what is it about you what do other people say same thing same thing yeah same thing it's just something i mean i'm sure it is personality

it could have been something and their upbringing too but just something just makes them whether it's people who left colts i just interviewed someone who left a colt her whole family was completely bought in but from a young age there was just something that's something that's that bothered her and she ended up leaving. So yeah, it's really interesting. I guess it is a personality trait and I'm very grateful for it. Okay, so you said that you started asking questions while you were a resident, but that it was discouraged. What did that look like? I mean, it looks like people saying, you know, you bring them up and then it's like, it's like threats. It's almost like, you know, Yosef, if you keep on, you know, talking about these things,

you're going to scare people away from the medications. You're going to scare people away from the medications. You're going to scare them away from life-saving drugs. And by saying these things just like, hey, why are we treating this like a conveyor belt? Yeah. Yeah, it's like, you know, there's always this feeling there like you've missed the memo. Like, it's like, hey, everyone else got the memo. We don't question the SSRIs. We don't question the fact that these drugs wear off over time.

We don't question the fact that the studies to support these medications coming onto the market. We're only three months long. and we put people on them for decades and whether the brain is really even designed to be in a drug state for decades at a time and whether that could make people worse. It's like everyone else in the program got the memo that we don't ask those questions apart from me

and so there's just this constant like awkwardness when you would bring it up and it's just like it's like don't you know we don't we don't go there and if you push they eventually say well people with mental illness you know they're stigmatized and if you ask these questions you're actually shaming them and you're going to push them towards suicide and so then you get this veiled threat that if you're like questioning these things like you're dangerous somehow um and you know the more and the more i looked at it i mean all of this is just a crafted narrative

i mean there's a drug company you know there's a pharmaceutical industry they have a lot of money they have a lot of influence and they can shape the way we're we talk about issues because they have PR and they have marketing. And anytime there's like, you know, a problem with a drug or someone commits suicide unexpectedly or there's a school shooting, you know, they have their team ready to go that says there's no evidence of this. And on top of that, the people who say there is evidence of this, you know, they're in it for the notoriety and they're actually really dangerous.

And so it creates this climate where it's just like, shut up, don't bring it up because that's just not what we do. And so it's that kind of vibe. And the best PR campaigns are the ones that you don't know exist. It's just like, oh, why do I have this thought about this person? Or why have I seen this person everywhere? Well, it's not organic. It's orchestrated. And the same thing is true when it comes to pharmaceuticals. But you did kind of go into that world after residency. So tell us what that look like. Yeah. So I mean, after residency, I end up in the pharmaceutical industry, you know, as a drug safety officer. And what is a drug safety officer?

It's someone who's responsible for understanding the safety profile of the drug and writing the labels for the drug, which communicates the most important information to the doctors so they can have conversations with their patients and monitor the patients well. So that was what I did. Did you go into that thinking that you were going to cause trouble? like be a disruptor? I went into it with good faith. I went into it from a place where I was like,

I'm really troubled about these drugs and I actually don't want to practice clinically because I can see the constraints in the system where it's like I have to treat people in 15 minutes. I don't really think I can do a good job there. But what I'm really into is understanding this evidence and maybe I can better characterize the safety issues, the things that I'm really concerned about you know the drugs wearing off all of that maybe i can better understand that and then convey that to the public yeah and i as is normal like i kind of bounced around my actual my first gig in the pharmaceutical industry was in oncology so it wasn't even in psychiatry that was like my my step in the door was doing uh cancer drug development and we had developed a drug and we

you know they you know it was going to the market we'd been working on it for a really long time and the pharmacovigilance team that's sorry drugs the drug safety team they were um really interested in publishing a manuscript about all of the safety issues they said you know we've been developing this drug for 10 years we've had thousands of people use it let's take all of this information that we know and publish it so doctors who want to learn from us can and we would have leadership come down to us and essentially say, well, let's not do that. Like, we already have some of this information very abbreviated in the drug label. We don't want to make a bigger issue of this than it is already. You know, they're thinking, like, if we make a manuscript about the safety issues, our competitors

out there are going to grab that thing and they're going to walk around to all of the doctors and just say, use our drug because look at this manuscript, which is really there to help people, but did you know it causes this problem and this problem and this problem? And so I quickly learned within the pharmaceutical industry, like to the extent they possibly can, they will always be minimizing the risks associated with the drug because it's life or death for them. You know, when it's like, when you're in a marketplace and there's multiple other drugs, you just care about your market share.

Yeah. And if people, if doctors are worried about the safety of your drug, it's like, boom, you're gone. And so that's how the drug companies live. And that's why you really don't get reliable. information out of them. They will do everything that they can to make doctors view the drug in the best possible light without like kind of stepping over the line into something that's blatantly fraudulent.

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Yeah. And it gets, I mean, there's a part of this that's even darker. Because when you think about, you know, who do doctors trust? And a lot of the time, it's the people who train them, you know, the professors who are leading the institutions. And these people are called, you know, the drug companies refer to them as key opinion leaders. And so these are the people at the top of Harvard and Stanford and Yale, UCSF, all of these

places. And when I was in the industry, I would notice that we would work with these people to essentially launder information. And so you would have a drug company, they would have like a manuscript, and then they would get a publisher to write. So they'd have a drug company has a clinical trial. They get a publisher to write up that study in a completely biased way, you know, that overhypes the benefits, minimizes the risk. And then they shop around for academics to put their name on the authorship line. Wow. Yeah.

And you may be asking. Yeah, why would an academic do that? Like, why would someone compromise their integrity in that way? And it has to do with how people get promotions within an academic system. So if you want to become a professor at a place, you do that by collecting these feathers in your hat. So it's lots of publications on your CV. It's lots of international talks. And once you have enough of those, you can say, hey, you go to the dean of the institution. I am the established expert in this place. Look at my CV and they go, yeah, you are. And what academics learn, especially in psychiatry, but I think this is happening in a lot of medicine, is one of the best ways to do this is by running drug company studies. And so very early on in their career, they start to be heavily involved in clinical trials. And so instead of having to do their own research or apply to the government agencies for grants, which is very time consuming, they go, okay, Jansen or Pfizer or Eli

Lilly, I'm going to help you. And when they do that, they get the protocol done for them. They get the support staff. They get the funding. People write the manuscripts for them. They fly them around the world. It's like the fast track to getting to the top. And so what this is created in in a lot of medicine, especially in psychiatry, is that you have this upper echelon of people who are heavily biased towards the drug companies because they're kind of reliant on them for career advancement. And so, you know, people in the community who aren't aware of what's going on, they go, hey, there's a professor at Harvard who says SSRIs are the ants pants are the greatest thing ever. They're just thinking to themselves, you know, Harvard's a great

institution. One of the best institutions in the world. This guy at the top, he's probably there because he's the smartest, most ethical, and, you know, a very moral person. And so they go, I'm going to believe him. But they're not really understanding that that person's there because essentially he's become a shill for the drug company, because that's how you get to the top. And so you mentioned a moment ago, some of the most persuasive marketing is the marketing that you don't even realize that is happening. And one of the main ways that it's happening, and one of the main ways that it's happening right now is that the academic elite has been bought by drug company money. Wow.

Yeah. And so you're learning all of this while you're working in the pharmaceutical industry. Tell us more about your kind of evolution, your enlightenment. Did you have one moment that was a wake-up call? Like, okay, this is not redeemable. I can't be a part of this anymore. So there was not one moment. It was like these several little things along the way.

And so, you know, I did a step. at the FDA as well, which is kind of, you know, when you're at the FDA, you're looking after, you know, 20 to 30 different drugs and all of the safety issues are coming to you. And you can actually see how all of the studies are done. That was really where I put it together because for a long time, I was, you know, people would say, you know, SSRIs, these are evidence-based treatments. And you can't, like, unless you really know, like, what that means, you just have to take them at their word. And so when I'm at the FDA, I'm looking at animal studies. I'm looking at, you know, early phase one studies, phase two, phase three. And that's when I started to notice,

I'm like, there is not a single study for any psychiatric medication that was done in a, you know, randomized placebo-controlled way that's gone over a year. And, and so I started thinking to myself, I mean, we're telling patients these are safe and effective, but we're leaving out for the one year that they were studied for. And then on top of that, I'm learning that, you know, SSRIs can make some people worse. They can cause this thing called tardive dysphoria, which essentially is where you get very tired and you have brain fog. And that's like a chronic issue that emerges after several years on the drugs.

I noticed, you know, I started learning about benzodiazepyazepy, pain-induced neurological dysfunction, which is something that people get from drugs like Xanax and Clonopin, where they start to become more anxious and agoraphobic and they start to develop insomnia. And agoraphobic means you're scared to go outside. Yeah, you're so like anxious that you're just like, paralyzed. Yeah, I don't even want to go to the grocery store because if someone talks to me, I'm going to have a panic attack. And so your world just gets smaller and smaller and smaller and you stay inside. And a doctor might tell them, well, that's just your anxiety getting worse. Let's up your medicine. Yeah. Yeah. And so it was really those two things where I'm just like, oh, wow, you know,

when they said evidence-based, they meant that, you know, for the one year that they were studied for and, you know, they never really talked about the fact that some of these drugs are making people sicker over time. And so at that point, I was just like, this doesn't, like, how could, you could this be a sustainable way to help people? We have drugs that frequently wear off over time. They're making a proportion of people actually sick. We have to find another way to help people. And so that was 2020. I end up just leaving. I'm not doing this anymore. And my wife, who's also a psychiatrist, we opened this clinic together. It's the Tabor Clinic. And then we started to focus, you know, firstly on just getting people off these medications when they weren't doing well.

And then over time, it's morphed into a almost like a complete alternative to the mental healthcare system where we look at nutrition, sleep optimization, different therapies. And we try and give people all of the non-drug treatments that have good scientific evidence for actually working and keeping people well. And we pair that with the drug tapering. And that's what I've been up to. Next sponsor is EveryLife. Every Life is America's pro-life diaper company.

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What was this after COVID? Yeah, so it was during COVID. And so I... So, yeah, after COVID had started. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, well, I was going to ask, like, what did you think about everything that was going down during COVID from the top level of like, you know, the mixed messages about masks and the COVID vaccine and all of that? I'm sure you had a lot of insider insight into how those decisions are made. You know, I got the shots, you know, so I had two of the Moderna shots at the time. Because even back then, I was just like, well, psychiatry is a dumpster fire, but maybe the rest of medicine is okay.

Yeah. And so, you know, my wife and I, we both got the shots, and, thankfully that we were okay. But as I kind of went further down this path, I started to realize, oh my God, I'm like allies with the anti-vaxes, you know, because I'm over here, like, I'm just like these drugs are bad. They're the worst thing ever, you know,

they're causing all of these problems. and I'm getting flamed on Twitter, but I have this support from this anti-vax group, and so I start looking into it more. Interesting. And then so over the last couple of years, like my skepticism to medicine has really just broadened. I'm just like, this is not just a psychiatry issue.

This is, you know, the money from the pharmaceutical industry has really just like taken over all areas. Yeah. Before we get into more of what you and your wife do now, I want to go back to something that you said, you said that it's not true that depression and anxiety are necessarily caused by low serotonin. And so the premise of the necessity of SSRIs just doesn't necessarily hold up, right? That it's supposed to be raising your level of serotonin, but you're saying that that's not necessarily the problem to begin with. Yeah, yeah, I'd love to expand on that a little bit because that has been one of the most dominant myths.

and about how these drugs work. And so, I mean, you know, to do a brief history lesson, back in the 1950s, a drug was discovered called Ipranized, and it was being used as an antimicrobial for patients with tuberculosis, and they were hoping to cure them. And so they gave them this medication, and they noticed that these patients started to perk up. And they said, hmm, you know, they're more energetic, they're more lively. maybe this drug has some promise as an antidepressant let's go and give it to depressants and so they went and they did that and it worked you know these these patients who were you know very low energy very unhappy started to to look better on the drug and so this narrative really could have gone in two ways at this time it's it's it's really pivotal one way they could have said is hey we just found a drug that has these energizing properties and it can perk people up and you know we're what we're seeing as a drug effect.

But the other narrative was, well, maybe these drugs are actually helping these depressed patients because they don't have enough, you know, serotonin, norophenephrin, dopamine, because that's what they had discovered Ipranizate was doing. They knew it was lifting these chemicals up. And so they said, well, we know this drug lifts these chemicals up. Maybe that's the problem. And so one narrative survives and the other dies.

And so the narrative that survives is that the patients, they have these chemical imbalances. And the reason for that is because it's a better commercial narrative. Now, intuitively, like, I know we just, like, gobble down antidepressants like crazy now. But really, like, just, it's like going back to, like, the 80s. A lot of people intuitively were, like, it's not a good idea to mask your symptoms with drugs. Like, let's not sweep our problems under the rug. because they're just going to fester there, we need to address them at their cause. And so the drug companies knew this and they said, well, a better way to package this drug is to say,

hey, this drug is actually fixing a medical problem. Like, don't worry about your life. Don't worry about these issues. Your problem is serotonin and we've got the drug that's going to fix it. If you characterize it as like you're fixing a biological problem, all of a sudden it makes sense to take a biological agent rather than a drug to mark. things. But there's no biological test. There's no biological test. And so for a long time, they would just say, well, we're just about to find it. You know, our researchers are looking into it.

And I mean, this was a big splash. I think it was like three years ago. Joanna Moncrief and her team in London, they did umbrella review on this where they looked at all of the evidence trying to find differences in essentially serotonin between depressed and non-debress patients. I mean, they looked at cases where they would get a group of depressed patients and they would do a lumbar puncture. That's where you stick a needle into the spine and you actually remove some of the cerebral spinal fluid, which is the fluid that surrounds the spinal cord and the brain. And you're looking for metabolites of serotonin. And so they would do that in depressed patients and then non-depressed patients. And they'd say, well, are there any differences here?

Right. No differences. Wow. Yeah. They would find people who had committed suicide. when they were depressed and they would do autopsies on them and they'd say well maybe there's differences in the number of receptors in the brains of depressed and non-depressed patients and so they would look at that no difference in the receptors there and even when it comes down to like genetics or brain scans or

any of these things they have never been able to find a biomarker that can separate people who are depressed from people who are not depressed. Not one single biomarker has been found between depressed people and non-depressed people. So we don't know of any biological cause for depression? Well, there are some things now, which I do think are kind of getting at it in that direction. I think inflammatory markers, they do tend to correlate with depression, but they also correlate with heart disease and all of this stuff. And that's a whole other avenue why, you know, diet is really important. Because none of that, no form of inflammation is addressed by an SSRI.

No, no. Or if it is, you know, very shortly at the start, but long term, no. Really, a lot of the major causes of inflammation are really dietary. That's, you know, 70% of our inflammatory cells, they sit in our gut, because that's the main place we interface, our body interfaces with the ear. external world. So that's why, you know, it seems like everyone's talking about diet these days because it's important. But, yeah, essentially there's no difference in any of these chemicals. And so these drugs aren't correcting anything. They're simply masking symptoms, which is,

you know, you could have a moral argument and say, yeah, morally, I disagree with that. But you could also just say, well, I don't really care. I just want to feel well, and I'm suffering. and I think that's totally fair because we want people to feel better but then the issue is we don't tell them about hey these are drugs just like any other drug they're going to wear off over time and there's also risks of prolonged use because our brains aren't used to being on them and so we give them this this very like you know it's just a lie you know it's just a misleading message about the safety of the drugs and how they work and because the more responsible thing to tell people is hey you know it's just a misleading message about the safety of the drugs and how they work

and because the more responsible thing to tell people is, hey, these have drug effects. Yes, they do work. You know, they constrict your emotional range. Many people experience that as therapeutic. But hey, this is probably not going to work forever. And while you're on this drug, we better make sure we figure out why you are unhappy

and we start introducing those things and then we taper you off this medication so you don't have this chemical exposure just lingering around for years later that can cause all these problems. Patriot Mobile is America's Christian conservative wireless provider. This is their once a year deal that they are doing right now to get a free smartphone just for switching. For over 12 years, Patriot Mobile has defended faith, family, and freedom while giving you the same or better premium coverage on all three major networks. Unlimited data, mobile hotspots, international roaming, they do it all. You will never sacrifice the quality or the service. They have a 100% U.S.-based customer service team that can help you activate in minutes. They make it really easy.

Patriot Mobile is on the same page as we are when it comes to life. The First and Second Amendment is so important. So go to patriotmobile.com slash alley. Get yourself a free smartphone by switching today. Patriotmobile.com slash alley. We had a woman on who she had been on different forms of antidepressant, anti, I guess SSRI is the right. way to say, but it's marketed as an antidepressant, anti-anxiety medication from the time she was a teen. Her dad died. She went through a really hard time, and they just stuck her on all of these pharmaceuticals. And the most devastating part of her story that she shared was that she said, it wasn't until my 20s that I felt joy for the first time after she got off all of these medications. She weaned herself off. She doesn't recommend doing what she did. I mean, she just came off cold turkey because she was like, I'm tired of not feeling. You talk about that shortened range of emotions. And I think we focus on.

while that person may temporarily for a period of time feel less sad, but there's a possibility that they won't feel joy. And that's a big sacrifice that people aren't being told about when they sign up for these drugs. Yeah, that's what they do. You know, they constrict your emotional range. And, I mean, you may go through a pregnancy or you may go through your child's childhood being blunted. You may never really enjoy intimacy with, with your partner because the volume of that is turned down as well.

You may not be able to grieve the loss of a loved one. I mean, you may be at a funeral and you're just like, I don't feel anything. And so, yes, I mean, you, you know, some people listening will just say, hey, you know, I'll take that over the pain that I'm suffering. But for many people, they're going to miss out on really what it means to be human and going through these hardships and this pain, you know, not only is an integral part of being human,

but some of these things teach us, teach us about life. I mean, you could think about, you know, let's say, for instance, you're in a bad relationship, or a career that you find unsatisfying, do you really want to numb yourself to the smoke alarm going off in your head that's just saying, hey, something is wrong, something is wrong, something is wrong. you take a drug to tolerate that but then you've missed all of this you know you probably should have

been working actually on the issue um you could be on a diet that is just massively inflaming you you could be living a lifestyle where you're on night shifts night shifts and your sleep is disrupted and all of that and all of these these symptoms that you're experiencing they mean something it's just like I feel restless. I feel tired but wide. I never feel that sense of peace in the afternoon when work is over where I'm just like sitting back and I'm like, oh, I feel good. You know, like, those are all signs that something is out of order. And if you just like put someone on a drug, you've robbed them of the opportunity to to actually have health, you know, like true health that's sustainable and good. Yeah. You're saying it's like, say your smoke alarm is going off and you're like, this is so annoying, I'm just going to take the batteries out. Well, that doesn't change the fact that there's a fire in your kitchen. And the fire could continue to grow, but because you no longer hear the smoke alarm, you think everything is fine. You're saying that's basically what it's like to get on these pharmaceuticals. Yes. Yep. You are numbing, you know, the smoke alarm. Yeah. Right. And how does it? Does it really raise your level? level of serotonin? Like, is that the mechanism that is used to shorten the emotional range and possibly make someone for a period of time feel less depressed?

You know, truthfully, people don't really know what happens. Like when they do studies, like brain scans looking at the serotonin receptors, immediately it seems like the serotonin goes up and then after about a couple of months, the serotonin levels actually go down. Now, is that what's causing the drug effect? We don't really. know. I mean, there's so many downstream effects on how it changes neurotransmission. But I think just the appropriate level to understand it is it just seems the chemical just induces a drug effect. And that drug effect is just one of numbing for most people. So when people say, because I will get messages like this, well, that saved my life or that saved my husband's life. He was on, you know, he had PTSD. He was on

the brink of suicide, he got on this medication, it changed his life and saved my husband. How could you be demonizing this? Like, what is your response to that? So my response to be to that is that's absolutely true. You know, if you're in a state of severe anxiety and you take a drug that kind of constricts that range, even if it knocks out the positives, you will experience that as therapeutic. You will experience yourself as being more functional. Now, if that anxiety or PTSD or whatever it was, was to the point where you're actually, suicidal, that drug can be life-saving in the short term. So I don't want to take that away from anyone. I mean, essentially we're just talking about a drug that will just constrict your

emotional range that will be helpful for some people. The part where I want people to think about this more is what does this mean long term? And to be aware that none of the controlled trials show that they actually work consistently after about a year. Does that mean that it's not going to work consistently for everyone? No, of course not. For some people, you know, they're out there and they've been on it for like 10 years and they're fine. Other people, that's not the case. They also need to be aware that they're at risk of the drug turning on them. And so if you're someone who, you know, you got on it initially and it was working and now five years later, you just feel like you have brain fog and you're tired all the time. Don't get bored into this narrative from the doctor who

just says, oh, your depression is evolving and now we just need a stack on a copy. cocktail. It's like maybe your brain can't handle being on that drug for five years like many of my patients. And so it's more nuanced. I mean, we never want to shame someone for being on the medications or demonize them. We just want to see them in an accurate way. And the best way to look at them is, yes, they can help and they can be life-saving, particularly in the short term for some people, but hey, we better make sure that we're looking at other sustainable non-drug approaches that will help the person for the rest of their life where they're not dealing with the drug wearing off and they're not dealing with the drug eventually making them worse.

Would you say that it's fair to say that SSRIs are causing more depression and anxiety than fixing it? I mean, that's actually what I believe, which may be a bombshell thing to say. but if we look at antidepressant use, like antidepressant use has gone up like 5x since the early 90s. And we have more disability from depression. We have more suicides than we've ever had before. And so when I look at it, it's like, you know,

the drug use is going up and like all of these markers is going up. And so I think, you know, is it the drugs making people worse or is it the fact that we live in this medical system right now that is just telling people like, hey, the problems you're experiencing, go and see your doctor and take the pill rather than actually like helping people address them? But the model of helping people with mental health problems at a population level is failing the U.S. Yeah. And it's just become so glamorized to be on something like Lexa Pro. Like, there are ballads that people put on TikTok that go viral.

People like just thinking their antidepressants for saving their life. It's almost become trendy to talk about what form of SSRI you're on. And that is not an indication of a healthy society in any sense. Yeah, you know, it's this weird, you know, I'll take off my psychiatry hat and put on my social commentator hat for this one. we we incentivize very strange things at the moment you know and it could be you know whether it's you know you're incentivized to identify as a racial minority or a sexual minority or or you know and right now we're just like oh my god you know things are so so hard for you and you know even institutionally like very recently and still like there's advantages to certain groups

and we have done the same thing with mental health problems like it's it's like you know the mentally you know people who have mental health problems they're stigmatized they're suffering like these people need you know to be coddled in this way and i'm not saying it in a mean way that that these aren't difficult things but there is an there is a message out there there are incentives for people to identify with their mental illness and then oh so you know we we see these campaigns like um I don't know, there was one about like showing what medication that you are taking. And this was viral on TikTok probably three or four years ago.

And it's just like, hi, I'm so-and-so and I take Lexapro. And it's like you get this badge for like, I am acknowledging I'm depressed and I'm taking this medication and I'm fighting stigma. And so there's also this sense that like when you talk about having this medication, you are this warrior out there. And there's a bunch of like conservative like redneck types out there. that are just like, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, like quit being a wuss taking the meds. Like they're sort of constructing this boogeyman out there where it's just like, there's all these people stigmatizing the mentally ill, and there really isn't. And so I see it as well. I see people on TikTok and they're just like, you know, listing their medications and they think it confers this sort of

social currency or it gives them this air of being like, you know, having more depth of character or like suffering in some way. It's very twisted because that's like a weird thing to flex about like taking psychiatric medications. Yeah. Yeah. It is a very weird thing. But you're right. Oppression is a currency. And if especially, I think maybe that's one reason. This is a total hypothesis. But it seems like we see a disproportionate usage of SSRIs among older white women who don't have very many oppression points because they're just, you know, white straight women. And so having some kind of mental illness, I think, gives them an intersectionality point. That's my analysis anyway. Last sponsor for the day is preborn. This Christmas, we are

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So a lot of the patients we see are people who have been on medications for years. And they are just at the end of the road. You know, every time they go to the conventional system, they get a new medication, and they're not thriving, they're not doing well. They have brain fog, they're fatigued. They can't sleep even though they're on massive doses of set up. it is and their quality of life is just terrible. So typically that patient may find us at that point or they may even try and come off the medication and then they'll experience withdrawal

because another part of this dark narrative is that you remember before I was telling you about these academics and how they had been compromised. Well back in the early 90s and early 2000s, the issue of psychiatric drug withdrawal was was sort of bubbling up from grassroots and so Eli Lilly ended up sponsoring a consensus panel where they picked all of these professors from these different institutions and they put them together and they said well you know what do you guys think about this withdrawal issue and the conclusion of that consensus panel who were all heavily biased was that drug withdrawal was mild and it went away in two weeks and so and they base this off the three-month clinical trials.

And so, yeah, no wonder, you know, in a three-month clinical trial, that's not enough physical dependence to really build withdrawal, but they kind of bury it there. And so they generate this manuscript saying, don't be worried about withdrawal, and the drug companies, they give it to their sales rep, and then any time they're at a doctor's office and the doctor is saying, well, this patient just had a problem with withdrawal,

and now they read something in the news, they're worried they're never going to get off. They say, hey, I've got this consensus paper from all of these academics that say it's not a big deal. What's happening to them is actually when you took them off their medication, their underlying condition is coming back. And so they need to be back on the drug. Wow. And so that's kind of the status quo.

That's how I was trained. And so many doctors will end up pulling people off the medications really, really quickly. And they don't give the person's brain time to adapt to the reward. removal of the drug because after several years and sometimes decades on this medication, the brain has adapted to it through a process called homeostasis. It's essentially like if you take a drug, not only does it change the way your neurotransmitters are working, but it also changes the way your gut works and your heart works. I mean, these neurotransmitters control everything in your body and your body doesn't like it. So it sends signals up to the brain to

downregulate receptors and make all these changes to kind of bring it back into a more stable balance and if you just like yank the drug out in two weeks it's like pulling foundational beams out of the building the whole thing just starts to collapse and so while there are a group of people who who can come off these drugs pretty rapidly because their brains are very elastic and they go through a bad withdrawal maybe it lasts a month or two um there's a massive group of people, I'm going to say millions of them, who when you do that, they develop insomnia, severe anxiety, sometimes psychosis. And it's completely disabling. And it goes on for months and a time. They're not able to look after their kids. They're not able to care for the home. They're

not able to perform at work. And it completely turns their life upside down. And so we get a lot of those patients who have tried to come off before the doctors have said, hey, this was just proof. you need to be on the drug forever. And then, you know, they, you know, they see me online or they come across something that I've, an op-ed that I've written and they say, oh, wow, you know, this is, there's actually a way to come off in a more gradual step-by-step approach. And so that's the first thing that we do. Like, we will do custom design tapers for patients.

And it's typically just driven by three things. There's three important things you need to understand about tapering. The first is that using a liquid. is always a really good idea. That's because if you just cut tablets, the most you can cut them is into quarters. And sometimes those quarters, like that's too big of a jump between doses.

But if you liquefy it, usually on a syringe, there's like a hundred little spaces. You can just steadily bring it down every two weeks and you have a lot more control. We teach patients to follow their body. You know, don't do it on a set schedule.

You need to kind of learn how your brain is readapting. You experience a way. of withdrawal. Okay, okay, now it's gone away. It's been two weeks. Now I'm ready to do another drop. And so we tell them to get rid of a schedule, listen to your body to come off. And then we also help people go really slow at the bottom because most people don't understand that at the very low doses of the drug, that's where most of the withdrawal symptoms hit because the drug is binding very tightly to the receptors and at the low doses, just to kind of make it simple is where all of a sudden the receptors disengage very, very rapidly, much more than at the higher doses,

and it plunges people into withdrawal. So that's a bit of a technical approach, but in a nutshell, we do these very slow tapers, usually over a year or two. And when you do it in that way, my patients, they can keep on working, they can keep on looking after their kids, they never get overwhelmed, they don't, you know, they don't fall into horrific insomnia or anxiety. And we guide them off. And the other thing that we do is, you know, we look at, you know, so if we look at depression and anxiety, it's like, where does it come from? So in the conventional system, it's like, hey, you know, depression and anxiety, it's either, okay, there's some very clear, obvious problem in your life, like a trauma or a relationship issue, go and see the therapist. Everything else is a

chemical imbalance, go and take a drug. Like, that's how we kind of, kind of, you know, you know, you know, triage people. But there's a whole bunch of other things that are really important. I mean, diet being the main one, you know, for anyone who has symptoms of anxiety and depression, and they're way out of proportion to the stresses in their life or they just seem to come out of nowhere, you have to look at their diet. Inflammatory food makes people feel really bad. You have to look at people's sleep as well. you have to look at their overall stress levels and even for some people who are just like

if you're like a person who's just like wired all the time and if you can't remember like the last time you clocked off work and you just sat back and you're with your family or friends and you just felt really at ease and comfortable and just like relaxed and you're just like oh I could take a nap if you don't feel that like fairly regularly

you're in like an amped up sympathetic state and so you have to teach them about you know minimizing caffeine use, nicotine use, also doing mind-body practices with like deep breathing exercises being really important. You could do yoga, you can do different things, but just teach people some way of learning to control like that sympathetic nervous system that gets people really amped up. And so we do all of that. We also do a lot of medical testing looking for nutritional deficiencies and other sources of problems like, you know, hormonal issues, estrogen, testosterone,

or no-so-thyroid problems as well. And so we try and just grab all of the things that people tend to miss and then we help them with that while they're coming off the drugs. Wow. It's called the Taper Clinic. Taper Clinic, yeah. And where can I hear more from you and learn more about the clinic? Yeah, so the best place to learn more about what we do is my YouTube channel. So that's Dr. Yosef, and it's spelled in the German way.

So it's J-O-S-E-F. And we published a whole bunch of videos on this topic, you know, drug tapering, non-drug approaches for depression. And if you're interested in learning more about my clinic, we're in, I think we're in like 16 or 17 U.S. states, the largest ones. I did not realize that it was that big. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, we've got a growing team of people that's a big demand to come off these meds. And that's, for sure.

It's only going to get bigger. Yeah. Yeah, I'm thinking it's like, are we, well, I hope not. You know, I hope, you know, what I wish is that we get, you know, with Bobby now in charge, we actually get people shifting towards more sustainable ways. The cynic in me is like, oh, you know, is mental health going to get worse? And then I think about AI and like the loss of jobs and stuff. I'm just like, okay, that's really bad.

But I'm like, I don't know, maybe if we have really good public health and we can get people moving and eating the right foods and, you know, not getting led astray with these weird narratives about the drugs. Like, it will get better. But anyway, so my clinic, if people want to find, find me and learn more about our business, it's taperclinic.com. Tapeerclinic.com. Easy enough.

Yeah. Well, Dr. Yosef, thank you so much for taking the time to join us and enlighten us. And thank you so much for what you and your wife do, for being well. willing to go out and do something different that is very, very necessary. So I appreciate y'all. Thanks so much for having me, Allie.