Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 128 | Tom Ascol

Episode Date: June 21, 2019

SBC Pastor Tom Ascol lends insight into critical race theory and how it has infiltrated the Southern Baptist denomination.

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hey, guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Friday. Hope everyone has had a wonderful week. Today, I am interviewing Pastor Tom Askell. He is a part of the Southern Baptist Convention, as am I. And he was at the gathering of members of the Southern Baptist. this convention a couple weeks ago where they voted on a variety of resolutions to clarify where this denomination stands on various issues. One of those resolutions had to do with critical race theory and intersectionality. And Pastor Tom Askell was a part of that and a part of that formation. And so I wanted to get insight and clarity from him on that process in how the resolution ended up

the way that it did. Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where

we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Pastor, thanks so much for joining me. My joy, thanks for having me. Yeah, if you could tell everyone who may not know who you are and what you do. Well, I'm Tom Askell. I'm the pastor at Grace Baptist Church in Cape Coal, Florida, and I am the president of founders ministries. But more importantly than that, I am Donna's husband of 39 years. I'm the father of six kids and the grandfather of nine with one imminently on the way. Oh my God.

So you're busy as what you're trying to say. Yeah, well, I'm saying that God has been incredibly kind to me to let me live long enough to see my children's children. Amen. Amen. Okay, the reason why I wanted to talk with you today is because I'm going to talk with you today is because I wanted to get some insight on the SBC and the things that are happening. Southern Baptist Convention for those who are listening who may not know. I am a member of the Southern Baptist Convention have been my whole life. You obviously are as well. And there has been a lot of,

for those of us who weren't actually at the conference, who weren't actually at the convention, there were a lot of murmurs on, on Twitter. I would say, okay, there are two different conferences going on. What's the deal? We're talking about egalitarianism versus complementarian. but really what kind of rose to the top it seemed like as the most, I don't want to call it a controversy, but the biggest point of confusion maybe from the convention was this resolution nine on critical race theory. So I wanted to get your insight on what critical race theory is, why there was a resolution on it, and how the process kind of ended up unfolding if you could. Critical race theory comes out of critical legal theory, which was developed in the

early 70s, maybe late 60s, as a way to look at how the law functions relative to different groups of people. And so critical race theory is the idea that the way to understand racial relationships is best conceived by power structures. So you understand the world to be comprised of power structures. And here in the West, here in America, those power structures have white European males at the world. the top and people of color tend to be toward the bottom of strata. So racism then becomes defined by CRT as that which is systemic and structural. It's built in. So an individual white European male or any person could not have any racial animosity in their heart at all, but still be complicit in racism simply because they're part of this hegemonic or this

leadership structure of racial inequity. And based on that then there are all kinds of proposals as to what needs to be done in order for justice to be served to those that are being oppressed so critical race theory has proposed a lot of ideas about what what should be done to relieve the oppression for the oppressors to sit back and give up and move over so it's a way of viewing the world that analyzes racial relationships based largely on structures and groups rather than individual people.

Which is why it's not primarily concerned with equality of opportunity, but rather equality of outcome. That's kind of what it's focusing on. Okay, they think that if we can come up with some calculation that would take the oppressors, who you said are typically, you know, white European males, take the oppressors, lower them down, take the oppressed, which is typically in their eyes, people of color, lift them up, then maybe at the end of the day we can have this,

kind of equitable utopia that we believe will finally be, you know, the heaven on earth that we have been striving toward? Is that kind of their goal? Or would you say it's more supremacy of those who have been oppressed to the degradation of those who have traditionally been the oppressor? Well, it depends large on who you listen to because both of those views have been proposed by people from within this framework. There are those who say that this is only the same. an analytical tool. This is a way of you in the world. But of course, you read the critical race theorists themselves like Richard Delgado and Gene Stafensche. And they say, no, this is a theory that is advocacy. This is designed to change things, to change structures. So you've got

typical social theories that just examine what is. They try to understand the way things really are and describe them. Well, this theory says we look at what the way things are. We tell you the way they are so that they can be changed to become what we think they must be or they ought to be, which in reality, it's a godlike perspective. Yeah. You know, we're going to make things the way that we determine to be right. And they want to really, they see, which this is typical of, you know, social justice advocates and people on the left, they see any kind of discrepancy or any kind of difference between whether it's between the sexes, whether it's between the races as inherent injustice. So is, if there is a difference in outcome or a difference in destination,

it's not because of different choices per se, but it's always they usually propose because of some kind of injustice, which I suppose is how critical race theory somehow infiltrated, not just the church, but the Southern Baptist Convention. You have people who are concerned with inequity, concerned with injustice, they see something like critical race theory,

and they say, well, that sounds good. Is that kind of what happened, or how did this all come together? Yeah, I think that has been going on in different places. I've had conversations with some professors and some of our seminaries about critical race theory over the last several months. A couple of conversations with people I disagree with who see this as a good thing, and I don't see it as a good thing.

I see it as filled with problems. But the way that this got to the floor of the Southern Baptist Convention, and in God's Providence, it was the last session of the convention, and it was the last 15 minutes of the last session of the convention. So everybody's tired. Most people are gone. Folks want to be done and go to dinner. And this is one of 13 resolutions that the resolutions committee of the SBC determined to bring out for the convention to vote on. They're recommending these resolutions. What I discovered later, I didn't know it at the time, but what I discovered later, is that an original resolution under the name of critical race theory and intersectionality

have been proposed by a pastor from California. And you have to, any Southern Baptist can submit a resolution if it's in keeping with the standings of their church and they have credentials to come to the convention. That has to be done 15 days before the convention. So the committee meets, they spend hours looking at all these recommendations that have come in and determine which ones to bring out. They have the option of completely declining a resolution. resolution and not bringing it out. They have the option of editing a resolution any way that they see fit and then bringing it out. They have the option of also writing their own resolutions. Well, we were told by the chairman of the committee, I think he said there were 18 resolutions submitted and that they had rejected nine of them maybe. I forget the exact numbers. But it meant that they wrote like six of their own. So I think they had seven that were come that they were going to pass.

pass along and six they wrote of their own. Well, it dawned to me later that this is a resolution that they said came from this pastor in California. So I actually tracked him down the next day, called him, talked to him, and got a copy of his original resolution. And it's completely opposite of what was proposed by the committee. The committee completely rewrote his resolution, kept his name and at least suggested if not giving the implication that this was something that they had just passed along from a messenger. Well, that wasn't the case. What happened is the committee on resolutions,

went through the first eight of these resolutions. They had like 20 minutes to discuss them all. There were a lot of debates about that. So we get to Resolution 9, and they say, we're just going to bundle that with the last four resolutions. We're going to vote on 9 through 13 altogether. The Messengers protest.

tested that and they decided that they had to take them one by one. Well, I had received a text from Al Moller at Southern Seminary earlier that day saying, are you going to offer an amendment on Resolution number nine and I had not read it at that time? I read it, gathered some brothers together. So when you're talking about, when you're talking about the Resolution 9 that Al Moller is referencing to and the one that you hadn't read yet, are you talking about the resolution nine in its original form from the pastor in California? Are you talking about the new version that ended up being the resolution. Yeah, the new version. This is the one that got printed in the Daily Bulletin. I didn't know there was an original version. Okay, so the change occurred,

the change occurred from the pastor in California through the messenger to this resolution being voted on. So it didn't get changed in committee between you guys. It got changed from the suggested form to what you guys actually saw and voted on. That's correct. And that happened by the committee. resolutions committee so they took it and changed it they kept the same name which was a little confusing because it gave the impression that it was this pastor from California's resolution and it was totally different it completely different so when we looked at it and read the resolution it became a pair pretty quickly to amend it sufficiently so that it would be a good resolution

would take a lot of work so we finished I have like 17 specific amendments So take this phrase out, add this phrase, you know, delete this, add this. But there's no way on the floor of a convention you're going to get people to follow along with that kind of intricate change. It's just not going to happen. So in consultation with Al and some others, we decided, hey, let's just reduce it. We'll add, we'll make three recommendations to amend it. One, add a whereas and two other resolved sections of the resolution. So the whereas address the origin of critical race theory.

Hang on, there's a lot of people that probably don't have it read the resolution. Tell us just in general terms what the resolution was that you guys were deciding on in a mandate. What did it say about critical race theory? Yeah, it says a lot of good things. I mean, in fact, if you take it with a line, I probably wouldn't say that it says any one thing that's wrong. But it's one of those situations where you can say true things that mislead. Like, you know, Allie has not been in prison in six months. Well, that's a true thing.

True. That's very misleading. And so the statement affirms the sufficiency of Scripture, the authority of Scripture, everything needs to be tested by Scripture, does all that right and good. But it says that critical race theory and intersectionality are analytical tools that can be misappropriated in bad ways that commend worldly ideologies, and that must be rejected. Well, is that true? That is true.

That's not the old truth because they come from godless worldviews. They come from Marxism. And that source needs to be understood if you're going to try to use it merely a tool. So whenever I made the recommendation for the amendments to clarify that, to reiterate that our identity as Christians is in Christ and that we must reject all kind of identity politics. And I offered it as a friendly resolution. I actually wrote it up, typed it up, emailed it into the committee long before I got to a microphone. So they had it on the platform to consider it, know what I was supposed to say. It was no animosity at all in my part.

I thought I can keep this from being a train rep because there's no way the convention is going to vote on this unanimously or with an overwhelming majority as is. Well, what I did that, Dr. Woods, Curtis Woods, is a professor at Southern Seminary, who's the chairman of the committee, I said, I offer this as a friendly recommendation amendment. He said, we take it as an unfriendly amendment. And he went on to say that the aspiration of the committee in offering the resolution as it was printed was to demonstrate to show that critical race theory and intersection of identity are simply analytical tools. They're simply analytical tools. Well, that's not true. Right.

They may be analytical tools, but they're not simply analytical tools. They're not neutral. Yeah, yeah. That's right. So that was the long and short of it. When we ran out of time, they called for the vote on my amendment. The amendment failed. It was a split vote.

I don't know how close, but it wasn't unanimous or even close. You know, probably was 6040 or something. And then the resolution passed overwhelmingly after that. So, and this is not to call anyone specific out, but I guess I'm just wondering why anyone in the SBC who does believe in the supremacy of scripture, I'm not questioning that, who does believe that we should be viewing everything through a biblical worldview.

Why would they view your amendment, which basically says, you know, identity politics and these analytical tools are, you know, they're not neutral or they're not kind of a perspective that Christians who do hold to the supremacy of scripture should be having? Why would anyone disagree with that?

Did they articulate why? Not at the convention, no. I've had conversations privately with some who are advocates of Kuker Race Theory, one in particular, and he is convinced that these are useful tools, that this is the way the world thinks and that we can learn from the world in this way how racism is structural and systemic in our society so that we can better address it. Well, of course, you have to buy the presupposition if you're going to buy the solution. And the solution is contrary to scripture quite simply because the presuppositions are contrary to scripture.

If scripture is sufficient, that we ought to be able to depend upon scripture to help us analyze what is partiality. What is sinful ways of thinking and treating people? Right. I wonder if, I don't know, maybe it's something in human nature, but it does seem to be popularized over the past 10 or so years to kind of draw these lines of distinction. that it almost seems like there are some people within evangelical Christianity right now who are simply not content with saying, okay, there are those who are dead in sin apart from Christ, and there are those who are alive in Christ. And those who are alive in Christ are reconciled not only to the God of the universe through Jesus,

but we're also reconciled to one another, despite our differences within the body of Christ. Those who are not with Christ don't have that. So to me, the gospel is the only analytical tool that you need for reconciliation. But it seems like people aren't quite content with that distinction. It's like we need to draw other distinctions within the body of Christ. So we need to draw racial distinctions. We need to draw the socioeconomic distinctions. Not to say that those don't actually exist when we're a part of the world because they do.

They do. And there might be actual manifestations of that that, of course, we need to take stock of. But it almost feels like the social justice gospel that we see so much now, it almost feels like a discontentment with the gospel. and with the Bible itself. It's almost like saying, well, it hasn't done the work that I wanted to. It hasn't done enough to relieve oppression. It hasn't done enough to reconcile. Hasn't done enough to redeem.

So let's see what Marx and James Cohn have to bring to the table. But they probably wouldn't say it like that, would they? No, I haven't heard anybody put it quite like that. Who's been advocating for it. Yeah. But I don't think you're wrong in the way you cast that. I mean, I do think there's obviously nuance that those who have whole the position and argue for it would add. But this is a different worldview. And I believe,

I wrote an article about this. You can found at Founders.org to give a little bit more of the background and details if anybody wants to pursue it there. But I am convinced that the most fundamental important Bible verse that is overlooked, that probably becomes the most controversial Bible verse in this whole debate is Genesis 1-1. If we really believe this is God's world, Then it's God's rules that we ought to look to and submit to and understand that as we do, this is how we're going to experience flourishing. This is how we're going to live well in his world that he created and designed us as his image bearers to live in. But people assume that today, and they assume that, yes, we've got the gospel, but as you said, it doesn't seem to be working in all the ways that we think it ought to work. Therefore, we ought to look at this theory and this project and this proposal and see what we can benefit from them.

Now, I've got a degree in sociology. I enjoy reading sociology today. But sociology at its best can describe what is. When you start listening to sociologists to tell you what ought to be, what you should do, you're in a bad way. We have a book. God has spoken to us. and if we take him in his word, then we will seek to understand that word and apply it to the best of our abilities in our lives and relationships. And tell me, just so we can be perfectly clear where exactly, and you kind of already explained this when you explained what critical race theory is, but if you were, if someone were to ask you, okay, but what exactly about critical race theory and intersectionality is not covered in the Bible or it doesn't align with the Bible?

what is that? What's the essential distinction? Well, one significant thing is looking at people primarily in terms of group identity. And so what's most important about you is not that you are an individual person, but that you are a woman, white, of this socioeconomic class of this age, that puts you in categories. It's demographics. Well, demographics can tell us some things. But the Bible doesn't deal with us primarily, if at all, demographically. The Bible calls us to give an account to God individually.

That doesn't mean I'm to be unconcerned about other people. It doesn't mean I don't have an identity as a family member, as a church member, as a citizen of a earthly kingdom. All those things are true. But I must deal with God as an individual. And that gets glossed over very quickly in these theories. because the critical race theory basically says the most significant thing about you is which power structure you are a part of. And that then tells us what we need to know that's most

fundamentally important about you. And it casters, it gives responsibility to people who aren't responsible for the sins of, say, their ancestors or people in their group. And then it also takes responsibility away from people who are in certain, quote, oppressed groups who still will have to give an account to God for their own individual actions. God doesn't, like you said, Genesis 1-1, we know how God created the earth and we know that we are supposed to live according to God's rules. And like you said, God doesn't judge us based on the perceived oppression of our group. And I think that's one of the most dangerous things. One of the beautiful aspects of the gospel is that through Jesus, we are reconciled to the only being in the universe who has the ability to condemn us

to hell and when we have to stand before him one day, we will be able to cite the name of Jesus as our righteousness. But if you get that, if you take that out of the picture, that we will have to individually give an account before God and that we are one day going to stand before the judgment seat, then you lose the essence of the gospel. If you believe that you are reprieved of all responsibility and sin and guilt because you've been more oppressed or whatever it is, then I'm afraid that you're missing out on a big part of the redemptive truth that we see in Jesus. Absolutely. You're exactly right.

And if you cast the problems in terms of critical theory or critical race theory or intersectionality, the only solutions are political. The only way you solve the problems are through political processes. So you don't need the gospel. I mean, you can say you have it and you can assume it, but you really don't need it because the gospel's not going to, quote, change the systems as effectively and radically as this theory says must be done for there to be true justice. Right. And that's the whole problem with the social gospel that has really been around for a long time. It's been around for a lot longer than this conversation. Really like 19th century, I think, is when it started popularizing and it's kind of lost its sway for a while.

and now it seems to be back with a vengeance with things like critical race theory and, you know, intersectionality and all that craziness. If you can give a word of hope and a word of optimism to people who are looking at this, you know, maybe they thought the SBC was over liberal theology. Maybe they thought, wait, didn't we kind of fight a similar battle over different things a few decades ago? Give us a little optimism for the SBC and, of course, optimism for the Christian in general. Yeah, well, thanks for that. And if you don't mind, our Jared Longshore is the vice president and founder, associate pastor with me. He and I do the Sword and the Trial podcast.

And we gave a whole podcast of that this week. So the last part that we're zeroing in on where to from here, why should we be hopeful? Of course we should be hopeful because we have an arisen king. You know, Jesus rules. We forget that. But that's true on our worst day. So no matter what come against us, we have a savior who is. slaughtered and who came back from the dead and who lives right now in heaven one day is coming

again so my worst day I have more to rejoice over than I can possibly conceive and I need to remember that Paul says that we need to look not at the things that are seen but the things which are unseen that's how we will be renewed inwardly even though outwardly we're wasting away day by day so man keep feeding on the word keep looking to the scripture take God's word believe that so that's individual for Christians everywhere anytime in the SPC well I don't know what's going to happen in the SPC but I can tell you since standing on the floor of the convention last week and since writing the articles that I've written and having conversations so many people have reached out to me that I'm

very very hopeful I've had folks at all level of the convention contact me and say hey we're with you we appreciate this Southern Baptists need to wake up we need to get educated probably I've talked to a lot of pastures said man I don't know what critical race theory is I don't want to know well I didn't want to know either but it's here you need to know our kids are growing up in it my grandkids I mean I one reason I'm in this because my grandkids and I hate the thought of my grandkids growing up in a world where the gospel has been lost or assumed I want them to have good churches with Christ's priests clearly and and with a certainty

that the truth is in the scriptures. Amen, I agree. You mentioned a podcast. Will you tell everyone, again, what it's called, where they can find it, and any other resources that you would like to point people to?

Okay, yeah, thank you. The Sword and the Trial, it's a podcast, it's on all the outlets and YouTube, and I wish I could tell you, but it's supposed to be everywhere. Probably iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, I would just assume,

probably those places, but you can probably just Google it. Or you can go to founders.org. That's our website, www.founders.org. I would encourage folks if they want to get up to speed on this to go to Neil Shinvey's website as well. Yes. Neil Shinvey Apolitetics. He's written lots on this.

And then a couple of books. One book in particular has been very helpful, two books actually. One by Melvin Tinker called That Hidious Strength, How the West was Lost. He's an Anglican, short book. It's good, helpful, gives a big picture. And then a book by Shelby Steele. called White Guilt. And it shows the origins of critical race theory.

I don't know that he actually names it, but he shows what happens in the 1960s with the civil rights movement under Martin Luther King Jr. And then after Martin Luther King, Jr., what happened with white guilt being played to all kinds of difficult agendas? And it's a brilliant book.

She'll be a great writer. And I would commend both of those two. you. Awesome. Thank you so much. I think a lot of people are going to benefit from that. And of course, your insight. Thank you for offering clarity on this. And thank you for what you do for being a voice for the many of us who, you know, weren't able to attend the convention, but who are concerned about the SBC and some of the differences that we're seeing there. And just thank you for standing off for the supremacy of scripture and the centrality of the gospel. That's what we all are called to do. well alie thank you for all you do and i look forward to hear about the safe arrival of your little one thank you so much and congrats on the number 10 grandchild

so as pastor ascal noted critical race theory is something that is infiltrating the church not just the southern baptist church but various denominations as we kind of move in the progressive direction and we start to doubt the supremacy of scripture and we put more hope into secular worldviews uh hope I guess that that's going to give us some kind of better justice than the one that God gives, but it's extremely toxic and it not only takes our eyes off of what scripture says is good and what scripture says is just, but also the centrality of Jesus Christ and his redemption for all individuals. This summer, we're going to be talking about biblical justice, what biblical justice actually looks like. We're going to do also an episode on race and intersectionality towards the end of the summer, but we're going to give a lot of clarity. into what God says about these issues and how we as Christian should be approaching them

and what God actually says about justice inequality and how we should treat people from his perspective, which of course is the only perspective that matters. This is my last episode that I will be recording before the baby comes. Of course, maybe if she's not here next week, I could record again and be like, okay, guys, I just had to talk about this particular subject. But as it is planned right now, this is going to be. my last recording before she comes in. Starting on Monday, you are going to be getting the episodes that I recorded in May. So there are going to be episodes on predestination, on Calvinism,

on women in the church, on in times. And then we're also going to be talking about things like Medicare for All, universal basic income, a lot of issues that you're going to be hearing about in the election of 2020. And so it's going to be an extremely informative series. I think you guys are really going to like it. Of course, if you disagree with any of these topics, which I'm sure you will, not all of you or reformed Calvin is out there, and that's perfectly fine. I'm so glad that you guys listen to the podcast. I hope that you'll take the opportunity to engage with me, that you'll email me, Allie at the conservative millennial blog.com and that we can just realize that all of these discussion topics that will be going through this summer is supposed

to lay a foundation for a conversation, supposed to lay a foundation for us to be able to have productive dialogue. And that's one thing that I love about relatable listeners is how thoughtful and smart you guys are, how much you know, message me, email me, your thoughts. And we can kind of go back and forth and discuss, discuss what we think and discuss what is true, particularly on theological issues. So I just appreciate you guys how much you engage with me and talk with me about these things. It really lets me know that you care. Of course, like I requested, I think a week ago, if you guys could, if you are so willing, if you. are so inclined, please share these episodes that are coming out this summer.

Share them on your Instagram stories. Share them on Twitter. Share them on Facebook. Share them just with your friends. Tweet them to your friends. Share them with your family members. I'm going to try as much as possible to be off of social media. That means I'm not going to be able to promote these as much as I typically do or tell you when they're coming out. I'm going to try to post a schedule of what episodes are coming out when. But I would love for you guys to share any episode that you like or that you feel gave you any kind of good insight. That would mean a lot to me. I love you guys.

I will still, I'm sure, be on social media talking with you before the baby comes. And so I will see you guys soon. Thanks so much for listening. And I will see you here on Monday. Hey, this is Steve Dase. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles,

faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this Steve Day show right here on Blaze TV. or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.