Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1284 | What the Hell? The Truth About Kirk Cameron’s Views on Eternal Punishment

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Starting point is 00:00:52 mortgage lending by the book, nationwide mortgage bankers, DBA Fellowship Home Loans, equal housing lender, NMLS, number 819382. Is Kirk Cameron right about hell? Is the punishment of hell temporary? Or is it eternal conscious torment? We will be looking at both sides of this debate today and also answering the question, is this heresy? This episode is brought to you by our friends at Olive. Make America healthy again. See what is really in the food that you are buying at the grocery store. Download the Olive app today at the app store. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Wednesday. Hope everyone is having a wonderful week. far. All right, today we are going to talk about hell. We are going to talk about a specific debate that was reeling at the end of last year that I didn't get to wait into that I want to try to add as much clarity as I can for my specific audience on today. So let me back up a little bit, give us some context. On December 3rd, actor Kirk Cameron released a podcast episode with his son in which they discuss God's justice and God's mercy in relation to hell and

Starting point is 00:02:08 punishment of those who do not repent and put their faith in Christ. And instead of affirming what is seen as the traditional view of hell among most Protestant eternal conscious punishment, where non-Christians are being tortured and fire for all of eternity and hell with Satan, he affirmed a view called conditionalism or annihilationism. And this perspective holds that those who reject the gospel go to hell but are not there eternally, they are eventually destroyed. They are punished for a finite period of time, and then they no longer exist. And I encourage you to go watch Kurt Cameron's full episode,

Starting point is 00:02:47 love him, have had him on the show several times. He is so great. And you will be interested to hear his argument from his perspective. Here's a clip from it, Sot 1. I used to hold the position of conscious eternal torment, because that's just what I was taught by people that I love and trust. I've learned that there are other positions. And, a very robust argument can be made for conditionalism or annihilationism as Edward Fudge posits here. And it fits the character of God in my understanding more than the conscious eternal torment position. Because it brings in the mercy of God together with the justice of God. It doesn't leave judgment out.

Starting point is 00:03:31 It is just. But it also fits with the Old Testament picture of the, the fate of the wicked, which is to be destroyed, it is to die, and it is to perish, not live forever in an eternal barbecue. Okay, so this caused quite a stir in the online Christian world. It sparked a really interesting debate about what God's eternal justice towards unrepentant sinners actually looks like. Now, you had some people calling him a heretic, saying that he can't be a Christian and

Starting point is 00:04:02 hold this position, but then you had people who simply expressed concern. my friend Samuel Say posted this on Acts. He said, Kurt Cameron is dangerously wrong. The Bible is very clear that hell is eternal punishment. His belief in annihilationism is terrible. But what makes it even more concerning is that he suggests that the biblical view of hell makes God merciless. And then you have author Owen Strand. He responded to Kirk Cameron's position by saying, grieve to see this from Kirk Cameron. Scripture is abundantly clear. Hell is the place where the fire is not quenched, Mark 948. A good exegetical resource on annihilationism is hell under fire featuring Sinclair Ferguson, Al Moeller, and G.K. Beal, we'll get to that in just a little bit. Kirk's episode has been discussed and responded to by lots of very smart scholars, theologians, pastors, not all of them agree. Al Moeller, Wes Huff, Greg Kokel, others, and we will get into their responses in just a little bit. The only reason that I am waiting into this after so many brilliant people already have is because there are many people in my particular audience who don't watch or listen to other shows. They haven't

Starting point is 00:05:09 heard about this debate, either this particular debate or maybe they've never heard of it ever. And maybe if they're like me, they hadn't really taken a deep dive into alternative views of hell. And this is a conversation that does matter. It matters among Christians because what we think about God matters. There's this famous quote by a theologian named A. W. Tozer that says, what comes into our minds when we think about God is the most important thing about us. So what does God mean when he says X, Y, Z in his word, is the question that Christians and scholars have been debating for thousands of years. It's the question that we still debate and discuss today because we want to have correct thoughts about God. And the

Starting point is 00:05:52 existence of hell, the nature of hell and what that looks like tells us about what God means when he says certain things about himself, about judgment and about mercy and about salvation. God's word, as we know, is without error. It's totally trustworthy. And people are neither of those things, whether they are pastors or priests or professors or theologians. But through the Holy Spirit, we try. We read our Bible in textual and historical context. We allow scripture to interpret scripture. We rely on the scholarship of wise Christians who have gone before us to help us believe the true things about God. And I do believe that this debate, while it matters, is a non-primary issue. I don't know whether it is a secondary issue or a tertiary issue or something else,

Starting point is 00:06:39 but it is not, in my view, a salvation issue. Those who accept or reject a position of eternal conscious punishment while believing that only by grace through faith in Jesus Christ is once saved are believers. Proverbs 2717, I think, is relevant when it says that iron sharpens iron and one man sharpens another. I believe that that's what happened through healthy debates. when we look to the Bible as our ultimate final authority and we discuss what the Bible actually means, what God means, not what God means to us or in accordance with our feelings.

Starting point is 00:07:15 We are sharpening each other. We are sanctifying or we are allowing the Holy Spirit to sanctify us through those discussions. Now, this is an intra-church debate. This is a debate that's probably not very evangelistic in nature. It's not probably that attractive or relevant to non-Christians, although within the this debate, there's always the responsibility and the opportunity to share the gospel, and that, of course, is appealing to those that God is calling. But these inter-churched debates that might be confusing or frustrating for the non-Christian are still necessary, just because they're not

Starting point is 00:07:49 evangelistic in nature doesn't make them unproductive or unnecessary. So, as we have done on many, many theological topics for the past eight years, we will explain the varying views on hell really mostly just two beliefs. There are other beliefs outside of these two beliefs, but these are beliefs that I believe Bible believing Christians can hold and what the support for them looks like. And then the conclusion kind of based on all of that information. So we'll get into that. What is annihilationism? What is conditionalism? What is Kurt Cameron's argument for this? What are other scholars argument for this in just a second? Let me go ahead and pause. I'll tell you about our first sponsor. And that is

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Starting point is 00:09:17 body is actually going to absorb these nutrients and use them. That's what you want. Plus, this is a pro-life Christian family-owned company. You should support them. Go to weheartnutrition.com. Use code Alley. You'll get 20% off your order. Weheartnutrition.com code Alley. What is annihilationism? Annihilationism, this is according to Ligeneer Ministries, is the view that lost people so people that don't know Jesus,

Starting point is 00:09:47 that are not in his flock, that were not saved by grace through faith in him, that they will go to hell and they will be exterminated after they have paid the penalty for their sins. That is according to theologian and author Dr. Robert. Peterson, Kirk and his son, James, in this podcast episode that got a lot of people up in arms, brought up many of the most common arguments in support of annihilationism, or you might have heard of conditionalism. So it is the, it's not immortality. The soul doesn't have immortality. It does not live forever if you go to hell, but you live for a certain amount of time until that's up. Your punishment is conditional. It's based on particular conditions, it is not last forever, no matter what. So one of the points that they bring up, fiery imagery consumes and destroys in scripture. So this is the first point that they say,

Starting point is 00:10:43 and they point to Matthew 312. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire. And so they note there that the fire is unquenchable. The fire cannot be put out. And But the chaff, which is a symbol for those who are going to hell, is destroyed in this process. The second point they make, they point to tax of perishing or destruction for the wicked. And they look to the Old Testament for this. Y'all know I love Psalm 37. I read Psalm 37 very often on my show because I love the picture that it paints for the righteous that are saved by God

Starting point is 00:11:24 and those who are rebellion against God and doing wickedness. It might look like they're succeeding, but ultimately they're into destruction. So they'll point to Psalm 3720, but the wicked will perish. The enemies of the Lord are like the glory of the pastures. They vanish. Like smoke, they vanish away. And I also think of the first verse of this chapter. Be not envious of wrongdoers.

Starting point is 00:11:48 Don't care about what the evil doer is doing or don't worry when it looks like they're successful. I'm paraphrasing, for they will soon fade like the grass and perish. like the herb. Matthew 1028. And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. So they would emphasize those who hold this position, Old Testament language showing a perishing, a vanishing or destroyed. And they would say this is literal. This is not just metaphorical. This is not just a picture. This means that they will actually no longer exist. And number three, they point to the meaning of eternal. So what does eternal actually mean when it's used in, for example, Matthew 2546? And these will go away into

Starting point is 00:12:39 eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. And so they would kind of reinterpret what eternal actually means there as the final and permanent consequence of that. their lack of faith in Christ, but not necessarily ongoing persistent torment forever and ever. Number four. Justice, finite sins versus eternal punishment. Something we've talked about on this show is that in God's definition of justice, when it comes to legal justice, law giving in Israel, there are at least four characteristics that we see. And we typically talk about this in the context of social justice and how God's justice differs from social justice. God's justice is direct, it's truthful, and it is proportionate, and it is impartial.

Starting point is 00:13:33 So this proportionate aspect of God's justice is kind of what this position hones in on. They would question if eternal conscious torment is just or proportionate fits the crime for a limited lifetime of sin. They would say that this is cruel and unusual. That's something that Kirk Cameron said, and they would contrast that with God's mercy and justice. and Kirk Cameron's son, James, points out that we inherit our sin from Adam. So it is actually not possible by nature for us pre-Christ to not sin at all. So everyone is doing what they have inherited from Adam to do.

Starting point is 00:14:13 And they would argue that it is unjust to be eternally and consciously punished for something that we inherited and did for a finite amount of time. And then number five is a more like personal. I don't want to call it an emotional argument in any kind of belittling way, but there is some kind of emotional aspect to this in that it feels wrong. And in the episode, Kurt Cameron expresses his personal relief. I don't want to believe in conscious eternal torment for anybody's what he says, which I totally understand that and can really relate to that feeling.

Starting point is 00:14:53 and that's not some liberal expression of emotions being our ruler or being the determinant of our theology. It's just true. It's an acknowledgement that that seems really hard to accept and really difficult to understand. I've even seen scholars say that. He says that eternal conscious punishment misrepresents God's character, portraying him as a merciless God who tortures people forever. And then there's the sixth point that they make the finality of the second death, Revelation 2014. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. So the camerans here argue in the podcast that the reference to the lake of being called the second death points to the ultimate finality of the judgment for the wicked. So eventually it's going to end. After the resurrection and final judgment, death in Hades, the realm of the dead are themselves thrown into the lake of fire, meaning that death as an ongoing reality is totally ended. And then additionally, James Cameron, this is Kurt Cameron's son, not the famous director, asked his father how eternal punishment is defined in the Bible leading

Starting point is 00:16:07 to this exchange. Thought three. Is eternal punishment also punishment while being alive, or is that eternal separation from Christ? I actually think this is a really good argument for annihilationism. And what you're saying is that just because the righteous go to eternal life, which is the gift of God, eternal life, the gift of God, what you're saying is not that the wicked are granted an eternity of punishment, you're saying that the punishment of the wicked is final. It is irreversible. There is no relief from that punishment in terms of ever going back. It's It's over. It's permanent. And you can't stop it. Okay. So that is their position. I think that's a fair assessment of why they believe what they believe about hell.

Starting point is 00:17:06 There obviously was a negative reaction to this and some people expressed their disagreement and we'll get into that in a second. But first, I want to point out that this is not really fringe, that this was held by conservative theologians, is held by conservative theological. And it differs from the progressive repudiation or complete rejection of hell altogether because they would redefine hell, they would redefine eternal life, they would redefine sin and salvation and repentance and holiness altogether. And the idea of anyone being punished for their sin is just an anathema to those who call themselves progressive Christians. This is different than that.

Starting point is 00:17:48 I do want to make that clear. You've got late theologians like Edward Fudge. and John Stott, who would have defended probably Cameron on annihilationism. So this is what Edward Fudge says in a 2007 interview with Modern Reformation. This is a very long quote, so I'm not going to read the whole thing. But he said, I do not believe the Bible teaches that the loss will be made immortal or that they will suffer torments without end. Instead, I believe scripture teaches that God will destroy both soul and body in hell, Matthew 28, and that eternal punishment means being punished with eternal destruction.

Starting point is 00:18:26 So non-existence, 2, Thessalonians 1-9. Our God is a consuming fire, Hebrews 1229. Because hell's fire cannot be extinguished, it will eventually burn up those sentenced to it, Matthew 312. This view, he says, is not eccentric or cultish. It's been advocated by lots of people throughout history, lots of Christians, throughout history. this understanding of scripture is sometimes called conditional immortality and those who hold it are sometimes called conditional, as he says. These labels point to the truth that God alone is inherently immortal, 1, 1st Timothy 616, and that any human who fully and finally enjoys immortality will do so as God's gift through Jesus Christ. Very interesting because the traditional Christian view is that everyone is going to live forever.

Starting point is 00:19:19 everyone has an eternal soul. But he's saying that's not necessarily what we see from Scripture. And then he goes into what he believes is the scriptural basis for this conditional position. He says that the scriptural base includes messianic texts from the Old Testament, which we've kind of already gone through, saying that the wicked's final destiny is perishing, is vanishing, is being shattered. He looks at Psalm 2, 9, and 12, Psalm 110, 5 through 6, Isaiah 11, 4, Isaiah 66. 24, Malachi 4-1 through 3. He even cites the New Testament again, Matthew 7, 27, and 2nd

Starting point is 00:19:57 Thessalonians 1-9. So that is Edward Fudge. That is one of the people that Kirk Cameron cited, that kind of helped him come to his position. And then we have another very respected theologian whose name was John Stott. He argued that toward the end of his life, that annihilationism is possible based on the biblical prescription for destruction for the wicked. He said, quote, it would seem strange if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed. And it is difficult to imagine a perpetually inconclusive process of perishing. He argued that the most natural way to understand the reality behind the imagery is that ultimately all enmity and resistance to God will be destroyed. So both the language of destruction and the imagery of fire, he says,

Starting point is 00:20:47 in scripture seem to point to annihilation. All right. So this is the position that God's mercy, that God's character, and that various points in scripture, the language, the imagery, and the old in the New Testament, pointed the idea that actually unrepentant sinners that don't come to faith in Christ will be destroyed forever. So what is the other position? Eternal conscious torment or eternal conscious punishment. That's probably the one. If you were raised Southern Baptists like me, year, even if I think if you were raised Catholic, you also believe in this position as well. So let's get into what the support for that position actually says. Let me pause, tell you about our next sponsor.

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Starting point is 00:22:08 big business idea into with Shopify on your side. Sign up for your $1 per month trial with and start selling today at Shopify.com slash alley. That's Shopify.com slash alley. Dr. John McArthur, who died last year, he delivered a sermon in 2011 called The Truth About Hell. And he makes some points in support of eternal conscious punishment. One of the points that he makes is that this fire imagery does not mean consumption leading to annihilation, but unquenchable ongoing torment. So you'll remember the point that we made earlier that the Camerons were making and that we see John Stott allude to is that the fire is unquenchable, but the people within them are not enduring that unquenchable fire forever. They eventually will be destroyed. But this is

Starting point is 00:23:08 what John MacArthur argues. He says in Matthew chapter 3, verse 12, scripture calls hell the unquenchable fire. So Matthew 10, fear the one who destroys both soul and body in hell. It is unquenchable fire. It doesn't go out and it doesn't go out because it always has fuel. This is different again than what the Cameron said. They would say the fuel went out, but the fire itself is unquenchable. John McArthur is saying, no, no, no, the fire is unquenchable because it is being fanned into flame by the fuel, which are unrepentant sinners. He points to Revelation 14, 9 through 11. He says, and another angel a third followed them saying with a loud voice, if anyone worships the beast and its image, receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath,

Starting point is 00:23:56 poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the Holy Angels and the presence of the Lamb, and the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest, day or night, these worshippers of the beast in its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. Sinclair Ferguson, another theologian, said in a 1990 sermon, the doctrine, of eternal punishment is the burden that lies behind the Lord's Apostles' proclamation. The destiny of the loss is one and the same with the destiny of the devil and his angels, the demons, a place of torment day and night forever. So he's saying that is what is behind

Starting point is 00:24:36 the urgency of sharing the gospel. They would argue against the argument that words like destroy or destruction mean non-existence. And so if they look at the, if they look at the, if they look at the Greek, for example, the word destroy, Apollumai, sorry if I'm mispronouncing that, and destruction, Olethros, mean ruin or loss of usefulness. They don't necessarily mean annihilation or non-existence. And so John McArthur said, quote, that is a Greek word, Apollumai. It has a very broad meaning. The meaning can mean to kill, to drown, to render useless, or to be lost. It is possible to translate the word destroy, but it is not the word for annihilation, obliteration, and non-existence.

Starting point is 00:25:25 MacArthur also provided biblical context on this word, allathrose, that word destruction that we see in the New Testament, seven. This is not the word of polymere. This is a different word. Alethros. Alethros. The penalty of eternal destruction.

Starting point is 00:25:40 They suggest that destruction, eternal destruction means you're destroyed forever. You go out of existence. That is not what this word necessarily means. 1 Corinthians 5-5 uses the same word and it says, I have decided, speaking of a sinner in the church, a professing believer sinning in the church, I've decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so that his spirit may be saved. Well, obviously, it's not the annihilation of his flesh. He's not a disembodied spirit who then in a disembodied state would become saved. Second Thessalonians 1-9 says they will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction,

Starting point is 00:26:19 away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. John McArthur also argued that the confusion of these Greek words leads to annihilationism, a confusion of what eternal punishment really actually means. SOT eight. Furthermore, in this verse, verse 9, these pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power, which means that they are placed somewhere away from God. It can't mean the annihilation of a person's physical body in 1st Corinthians 5-5,

Starting point is 00:26:56 and it doesn't mean the annihilation of the person's soul and body here, because it refers to a place where they will be away from God. Seminary professor, Denny Burke, I really like his writings, very clear. He emphasized this point. He said, when a car is destroyed by a collision with another car, We don't mean that that car was a raise from existence. We mean that it was utterly and finally ruined and will never again be what it was designed to be. That is how the Bible's language of destruction works as well.

Starting point is 00:27:29 And the Cameron sadly missed this. Also on the point that eternal means everlasting duration for both punishment and life, denying endless punishment would deny endless life. That's what people like John MacArthur argued. He says both words eternal are identical. So if hell is not eternal, then guess what? Neither is heaven. If there is eternal life and there is eternal punishment.

Starting point is 00:27:56 And so you remember the previous argument that was made that eternal life means immortality for the believer, but eternal punishment doesn't necessarily mean eternal punishment or they're being eternally punished in that they cannot for all of eternity turn back and have another chance to go to heaven. but that that does not necessarily mean eternally persistent bearing of that punishment. I hope that I'm kind of making sense. But John McArthur is saying, no, it actually means that if by eternal life, the scripture means that we get to enjoy the fruit of salvation forever, then eternal punishment, that exact same Greek word used for eternal means bearing the fruit of eternal non-salvation or damnation.

Starting point is 00:28:44 Matthew 2546 and those will go away into eternal punishment but the righteous into eternal life. So that is the scripture that he is referencing. J.I. Packer, another theologian, he wrote a 1997 article in Reformation and Revival Magazine and he said the assertion that in the age to come, life is the sort of thing that goes on while punishment is the sort of thing that ends begs the question. Though this assertion is constantly made by annihilationists, it lacks support from grammarians and in any case begs, and in any case begs the question by assuming that punishment is a momentary rather than a sustained event. That is a very good use of begging the question, by the way. That phrase is very often misused. Begging the question does not mean that leads me to the question

Starting point is 00:29:39 or that brings the question to mind. It means exactly how he said it, that an argument is not really completing the argument. It's actually begging a question. So good job, J.I. Packer in 1997. Finite sins warrant eternal punishment. This is another argument for eternal conscious punishment that's made because they are against an infinite God.

Starting point is 00:29:59 And sinners continue sending eternally in hell without repentance. And Kirkhammer does acknowledge that when you sin against someone of a higher rank or higher authority, the punishment is greater. So he does acknowledge that point. John McArthur says the amount of time that a sinner sins is irrelevant. So this is his argument. Crimes against the infinitely holy and exalted God are infinitely wicked and the punishment fits the crime. Sinners who go to hell never repent. In hell, they continue to hate God. The punishment never catches up with the sin. They go to hell and keep on sinning forever. He references Revelation 2010. And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were.

Starting point is 00:30:42 And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Mark 3.29. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness but is guilty of an eternal sin. So he's pointed out, okay, that was just a one second sin. Whatever you believe that is. There's debate over what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is. but really the conclusion that most come to is that it is the rejection of Christ. Like that is the one thing that keeps you from salvation.

Starting point is 00:31:15 And that might have been a split second decision. You could argue that's a decision that was made in someone's entire life. But it doesn't really matter how long it was. It is whom you are sitting against. And then we also have Al Mueller. I've had almost all these people on my podcast, those that are alive, Kirk Cameron and of course John McArthur and Al Moeller. and I respect all of them and West Huff, who we'll talk to in just a little bit.

Starting point is 00:31:38 And Al Moller has an interesting perspective on this too in support of eternal conscious punishment. We'll get to that in just a second. Let me pause, tell you about our next sponsor first. That is good ranchers. All right, y'all, this is a big birthday for America this year. She turns 250. And if we want to celebrate America, then we need to buy American. We need to make sure that we are supporting not only American-owned businesses, owned by

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Starting point is 00:33:16 He says the argument about finite sin and the injustice of eternal punishment fails to recognize the fact that sin, every sin, and the very fact of sin is an infinite offense against God's infinite holiness. Eternal conscious torment is not disproportionate, much less unjust. It is the revelation of God's perfect righteousness. justice. He says that hell manifests God's glory and justice. It is retribution. It is not remedial. And sinners remain rebellious forever. So this is actually going back to John McArthur's 2011 sermon where he says, God's honor and God's glory is manifest in the punishment of the wicked.

Starting point is 00:33:57 Hell is for those who hate God. They continue to do so forever. J.I. Packard goes on to argue. The Christian idea of hell is not a freestanding concept for pain's sake, but a gospel-formed notion of three coordinate miseries, namely exclusion from God's gracious presence and fellowship and punishment and with destruction. The justice of God's final judgment lies in two things. First, the fact that what people receive is what they have in effect already chosen. Second, the fact that the sentence is proportioned to the knowledge of God's word, work and will that was actually disregarded.

Starting point is 00:34:37 Now, the question still remains is annihilationism, heresy? And we've got very smart people on, I guess, both sides of that debate. I haven't seen a whole lot of people that I follow, that I've had on, that I respect to say, yes, this is absolutely heresy and someone is going to hell if they deny eternal conscious punishment. and apologist West Huff explains this position, or explains why it is not heresy. He says, with Kurt Cameron announcing his position on conditionalism, I'm seeing a lot of people attempting to critique it. I hold to eternal conscious torment, but I do understand the topic of conditional immortality,

Starting point is 00:35:17 and I've yet to see anyone actually give a rebuttal that shows me they've interacted with the arguments and biblical reasoning from the other side. To condemn conditionalism as heresy is to say that John Stott, Edward Fudge, F. Bruce, potentially even Athanasius of Alexandria are all heretics. This is, with all due respect, ridiculous. While the position might be unorthodox, it is not heresy. If you actually want to interact with someone who knows the topic, reach out to my friends, Dan Peterson, and Chris State, both are solid, fair-minded, well-educated, and articulate holders of conditionalism. Elisa Childers wrote on Acts, there has been a lot of backlash against Kirk Cameron regarding

Starting point is 00:35:56 his openness to a position called conditionalism. Although I disagree with this position to have concerns about its recent popularity, I have always been careful to avoid calling it heresy. It's not a denial of divine judgment or hell, nor does it indicate that someone is progressive. When I met Kirk several years ago, I could tell that he was smart while studied and deeply committed to the Lord and to his word. He is a brother in Christ with a proven track record of faithfulness. I agree with that.

Starting point is 00:36:23 I agree with that, that it is not heresy. See, I also disagree with it. Really, one of my biggest disagreements, I would say, is when it is asserted that eternal conscious torment is incongruent with the merciful character of God and that it is a disproportionate punishment to a finite amount of sin, as if the mercy of God can only be expressed through ending eternal conscious punishment. but the mercy of God is expressed to everyone through Christ. There was an analogy that was made, I believe, by Kurt Cameron's son that was like,

Starting point is 00:37:05 it would be like the federal government saying, okay, we're passing a law that says that you can't breathe since, you know, sitting to us comes as easily as breathing. That's true. And then punishing everyone forever who took a breath. But it's not actually the same. That's not a good analogy because God, before we die, has given us without excuse. the gospel of Jesus Christ. Like he has given us a way to avoid eternal punishment.

Starting point is 00:37:32 So if we want to see the character and the mercy and the grace of God, we don't have to necessarily ent hell. Maybe there are other arguments for that. But we see the mercy and grace of God that while we all deserve hell, while we all have chosen that by grace through faith, he has made us alive in Christ. That is where we get to see the mercy of God. I just, I'm not settled with the, it's incongruent with God's merciful character argument.

Starting point is 00:38:02 Evangelist Ray Comfort, he is the CEO of Living Waters. He affirmed eternal conscious torment, but he also defended Kirk Cameron. This is thought for. Kirk Cameron has been a dear friend of mine for decades. I've known him to be a godly man, a man who loves the Lord, his family and the church. In a world filled with phonies and make-believe, especially in Hollywood, I think Kirk's the real deal. He's not only been a friend of Living Waters for nearly 25 years, but we've served in ministry together for a good portion of that time. While it certainly seemed from some of the things Kirk said on his podcast that he was indicating that this is now his official view,

Starting point is 00:38:38 when I spoke with him personally on the phone, he told me that while he believes the Bible appears to point in the direction of this view, he's not settled on the matter and is asked for further discussion. So his point was that it's not settled, that he is still kind of debating it. And then Stand to Reason founder, Greg Kokel. I love Greg Kokel. I really encourage you to read the book tactics. Here was his response, Up V. In my view, the people who differ with us theologically on this issue, even on a big issue, like this one, need patient, brotherly counsel and not personal attack.

Starting point is 00:39:13 This just tends to galvanize people and make them, I think. think more calcified in their position, more resistant to learning and instead of helping them to get them to rethink their view. Yeah, I think that's a good point. I have zero concerns about Kirk Cameron, not taking the word of God seriously or possibly becoming progressive. He is one of, I mean, one of the most serious people about faithfulness to God that I've ever interacted with, just in my few conversations that I've had with him. And so I do think it's an interesting and important discussion. One thing that I can relate to,

Starting point is 00:39:55 even though I don't think that I can agree with the position of conditionalism, just from what I see in scripture, the arguments that I hear from people like John McArthur, what I can relate to is wanting to believe it. Like, I do have a very hard time with the thought of eternal conscious punishment. And I think it's okay to say that. like I think it's okay. John Stutt even said this, that we're lying to ourselves if we're not uncomfortable

Starting point is 00:40:23 with that thought of eternal conscious punishment. But that discomfort should give us the urgency to share the gospel. It should be the driving force. In addition to loving people, really that just goes hand in hand wanting to save them from hell, but it should be the driving force behind us sharing the gospel. And I think Kirk Cameron would agree with that. What we don't want is to lose the urgency because we have in our minds that, well, at least it's just a short period of time or it's just temporary, so it's not as big of a deal. No matter where you land on conditionalism and annihilationism or ECT, we can't lose that urgency because separation from God and the torment of hell, however long it lasts, is really bad.

Starting point is 00:41:08 And we want people to go home. Like we want people's souls to go where they were meant to go to be in fellowship with their creator. We want them to be liberated from sin both in this life and the next life. So no matter what, we can't lose that urgency. The other thing that we cannot do is allow that feeling of discomfort against ECT to be the driver of our theology. I'm not arguing that's what Kirk Cameron is doing. I'm saying for all of us on any subject, we can't say, I don't like that or that doesn't fit my definition of love or my definition of justice or my definition or perspective on God's mercy and therefore it must not be true. Is there an out? Is there some kind of exit ramp? Again, that's not

Starting point is 00:41:51 what the Camerons are doing, but all of us have the propensity to put our feelings and our discomfort first. God is merciful because he says he's merciful. God is good because he says he's good. God is gracious and kind and loving and just because he says he is, no matter what I think. I mean, I think we see Paul wrestle with this in Romans 9 when he's talking about, okay, how can someone be destined to wrath or destined to mercy before they're even born? And Paul says, well, can the clay say to the potter, why did you make me this way? Basically, we trust God's goodness and sovereignty, that he is who he says he is because he says it and because he's God and we're not. That's where we have to land in all of this, no matter what we disagree on. All right, I've got one more thing to talk

Starting point is 00:42:41 about and really something to ask you guys in just a second. Let me pause and tell you about our next sponsor, and that is crowd health. If you are tired of having health insurance, paying for health insurance, but feeling like you don't have health insurance, then maybe it's time to opt out of health insurance altogether and join crowd health. We use crowd health. I'm very thankful for the coverage that we have through them. You don't have to work. You don't have to worry about doctors networks or the crazy premiums or deductibles or all of the hassle that comes with health insurance. Instead, you can simply have health care for under $100. You get access to a team of bill negotiators, low-cost prescriptions, lab testing tools,

Starting point is 00:43:22 as well as a database of low-cost, high-quality doctors vetted by crowd health. And if something major happens, you pay the first $500 and the crowd comes in to help fund the rest. So you're paying into the crowd every month. cover other people's cost of health care and they're doing the same thing to cover your cost. This open enrollment, take your power back, join crowd health to get started today for $99 for your first three months using code alley at join crowdhealth.com. Join crowdhealth.com. Code alley.

Starting point is 00:43:52 Crowdhealth is not insurance. Opt out. Take your power back. This is how we win. Join crowdhealth. com. All right. Last thing I want to discuss today as we shelve that very important conversation.

Starting point is 00:44:08 maybe we'll pick back up on it. Maybe we'll have Kurt Cameron on to discuss this at some point is a request for prayer for our friend Megan Basham, whom we've had on several times. She is a sister in Christ and she's done so much good work to bring transparency to the pulpit and to encourage pastors, especially to be faithful to the truth of God's word and to not be persuaded by culture and by social justice warriors. She's done something. a good job, so thankful for her. And she has been battling cancer. We thought she was in the clear, but she posted an update on January 5th about her health journey after being diagnosed with stage 3 colon cancer. She went through chemotherapy. She had surgery, but her most recent

Starting point is 00:44:55 scan revealed a spot on her lungs, which she doesn't know for sure, but she is saying that doctors are telling her to assume it's cancer. And she posted on X about this. And she posted on X about this and she said that she had a hard time over Christmas and New Year's feeling pretty down. Her oncologists have told her not to panic, but this is really where she gets her hope and her steadiness. She says, living the life of a Christian doesn't mean you don't have hard days or that news like this won't cause you to spend a few days curled up like Elijah and praise him for passages where he shows his great patience with our weakness. He assures us that he is close to us when we are brokenhearted and crushed in spirit, Psalm 34.

Starting point is 00:45:38 But it does mean that you wrestle through it with the Lord and take these disappointments and fears to him, the great physician, knowing that he ultimately is the one who can heal spiritually, emotionally, and physically. And then she quotes 2 Corinthians 416 through 18. Therefore, we do not lose heart, though outwardly we are wasting away. Inwardly, we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us in eternal glory that far. outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen since what is seen is temporary and what is unseen is eternal. So please pray for her. Pray for full healing. Pray that her body would be healed. Pray that the doctors would have compassion, that the doctors

Starting point is 00:46:23 would have insight, that they would have discernment, that they would care to be so deliberate and so careful about every suggestion that they make, everything that they see. see on her scans every step of the process of healing that they would be so careful and so caring toward her and pray for her husband, pray for her two girls. I know that she wants to be present for them. And I'm not just talking about life or death, but she wants to be healed. She wants to be restored. She wants to feel good.

Starting point is 00:46:55 And yet the Lord is using this as a trial to bring her closer to him, to make her more like him as he does with all of us. and various trials, but we just pray for our sister for relief from this trial and that she would be fully and totally healed, that she would have a very long life of telling the truth and causing godly trouble and raising a respectful ruckus ahead of her. And so pray for peace for their family and just share the spiritual arrows with her, share the prayer arrows with her by going before the Lord and just interceding for her. All right, that's most of what we have time for today. I do have, I know this is like really close together, but I do have to do one more

Starting point is 00:47:39 ad and then I'll just do like a final end. My last ad is Patriot Mobile. Every day Americans make choices that shape our country's future right now. We can make the choice to vote with our dollar by switching to a cell phone company, a cell phone carrier that actually shares our values that is not going to send our hard-earned dollars to progressive politicians and progressive causes to abortion facilities like a lot of these companies do but they actually care about veterans first responders first and second amendment the sanctity of life the family so when you switch to patriot mobile you're not only getting great service and working with the company that cares about the things you care about but you are also sending a message that you are fighting for this parallel economy that

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Starting point is 00:48:40 Use code Alley for a free month of service. Patreonmobile.com slash alley code alley. All right. Just a reminder that we have my dad that is going to, he is going to be releasing two episodes a month on relatable. He's going to be breaking all kinds of things down. I want you to submit questions for my dad. You can just send me a message on Instagram and you can say, question for Ron, or I'll

Starting point is 00:49:10 post about it on my Instagram story. And these can be financial questions. These can be personal questions. These can be relational questions, marriage questions, and we'll pick a few. And we will answer them. He will answer them at the end of the episode. And we will also be doing two Saturdays a month. My dad's episodes are going to come out two Saturdays a month, a report.

Starting point is 00:49:29 a replay episode is going to come out. And tell me what topics you want to hear from me this year. Tell me what guests you want to hear from. We have a lot of awesome guests lined up this Friday. We are going to have someone who has evangelized to Muslims for many years. And he is going to talk to us about how best to do that, what the reality is. Are Muslims really waking up to the reality of the gospel? That would be really good news as we've been talking about this.

Starting point is 00:49:55 So we'll get into all of that on Friday. All right. Thank you guys so much for listening and watching. we will be back here on Friday.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1284 | What the Hell? The Truth About Kirk Cameron’s Views on Eternal Punishment

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