Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 129 | Women in the Church

Episode Date: June 24, 2019

What does the Bible *really* say about women teaching from the pulpit? Does it matter?

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hello, relatable listeners. I hope everyone is having a wonderful day so far and enjoying your summer. If you are out of school, yay for you. If you are working full time, as I'm sure most of you are, yay for you. I hope that you can still enjoy the pool and fun summer activities on the weekends. That was like the worst part of starting my job after college is realizing that I don't have time to lay out. And so I'm just going to be perpetually pale all year round. That's okay. You get used to it. If you're just not realizing that, if this is like your first summer out of college and you realize, oh my gosh, I have no time to go to

the pool, it's okay. You will live through it. All right. Today, what we're talking about is women in the church. I have gotten lots of questions about this. The question typically is, can women be pastors? Is it okay for women to be pastors? Or a more specific question, is it okay for women to teach men in the church? So first, we are going to look at the verses that are typically cited when we are having this discussion and they happen to be two of the most controversial verses. when this subject is brought up. And that is 1 Timothy 2.11 through 12, let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man. Rather, she is to remain quiet. 1 Corinthians 1434. As in all the churches of the saints, the women should be kept silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission as the law also says.

If there is anything they desire to learn, them ask their husbands at home for it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. Yes, the Bible really does say these things. Now, women, let us be real with ourselves. This, by the way, it's not just an episode for women. It's an episode for men too who want to know, okay, is it right for a woman to be a pastor, et cetera? But I'm especially speaking to women because I am a woman and I know, I know the reaction that you might get when you hear these verses that kind of makes us bristle just a little bit. I can't assume what happens to you when you read those verses. Maybe you read them or hear them and you're like, yeah, totally fine. That makes a lot of sense to

me. That's great. That is awesome that that is your first reaction and I genuinely mean that. My first reaction as a, you know, simply prideful person that would be my, that would probably be my simple, or that is my sinful disposition to try to take control of things and to assume that I'm completely self-sufficient. So my fleshly reaction is one of defensiveness when I read that. I don't like that. It's shameful for a woman to speak in the church. I'm supposed to be submissive. What? I'm to remain quiet in the church. When am I ever quiet? I mean, I speak for a living. I've been talking since I was like age two. I'm a better talker than most men that I know. What are you saying that I can't speak in the context of the church that doesn't make any sense to me

in my prideful flesh? I'm an outspoken person. if you haven't noticed that so far. I am confident on stage. I also have a gift of teaching, and I don't mean that in any kind of braggadocious way. There are so many gifts that I do not have. I can spend a whole podcast telling you the things that I am horrible at. Like,

I wasn't that great at school growing up except for two, maybe one subject, because I'm bad at a lot of things. I've never been just one of those people that's great at everything. I am good at very few things. but one of the guests that I have been given, I think, at least I hope so. I hope all of you aren't rolling your eyes and thinking, wow, no, you don't. But I've had this affirmed in different areas of my life. One gift that I do have is being able to explain things pretty well. Not always,

not in every single case, but that is a gift that God has given me. So if I'm talented in teaching in some ways, I'm talented in encouragement, I'm talented in exhortation, I'm talented and getting up on stage, what do you mean, God, that in the role or in the context of the church, that I am not allowed to do that? Well, what I have to realize is that God is sovereign, that God made me, that he gave me my gifts, he gave me what I am good at and what I am bad at, and he knows my strengths. He knows my weaknesses. He knows my insecurities. He knows what I'm confident in. He gave me a gift for public speaking. He gave me a gift for teaching. He knows how much I excel in these things. He gave me skills. He gave me my love for learning more about the Bible and helping other people learn it too. And he also knows exactly all of the many, many, many things that I am terrible at. He knows all of these things. And yet, and yet his word is timeless and true. therefore, these verses apply just as much to me as they do to anyone else at any other point in history. Because the fact of the matter is, when I read those verses and I have a negative reaction and I start pumping myself up and I say, well, I think I'm a better speaker.

I'm a better teacher. I know more about the Bible than this person who got to stand up and teach in church or this pastor or this teacher or this guy who stood behind the pulpit. I could do that better. That's pride. plain and simple, that is pride, that is arrogance. And there is no place for pride when I am reading the word of God, which tells me that I am deficient, but that God is sufficient. So like I said, God knows everything about me.

He made me. He knows exactly who I am, what I have a propensity to do, what my strengths are, what my weaknesses are. And he tells me this in his word. And so instead of me saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, my talents are bigger and better than God. my knowledge is bigger and better than God. I know what to do better than God does, and maybe this is just culturally irrelevant today,

I need to take a step back and realize God knows me better than me, that his plans are better than mine, that his purpose is better than mine, that his structures and his systems that he has set up are better than mine, that he is wiser than I am, and that I have to trust that his word is what he says it is, which is that it is breathed out by God

and profitable for teaching, for reproachers, for correction and for training and righteousness, as 2 Timothy 316 says. So I slow my role. I take a seat. I take a step back and I say, okay, God, you are bigger and better than I am. And in light of that, in light of the sovereignty and the all-knowing nature of God, in light of the inerrancy of his word, in light of my finite understanding, in light of my lowly place in front of the throne of the holy God, I laid down my pride and I say, okay, God, show me. Please give me the wisdom to understand this. Show me how this reflects your goodness and love and your power. Help me grasp this truth so I can obey you better, so I can know you more. It's okay for us to not understand.

It's okay to acknowledge our human reactions to these verses that don't seem to agree with us as long as our next action is to lay down our feelings at the feet of Jesus and saying, not my will, but your will be done. So that is our posture going into this because I see these verses cited all the time by men, but especially by women saying, see, the Bible is oppressive. See, Christianity is oppressive. It's this oppressive patriarchy. And we'll get into that specific argument in a little bit.

And I just want you to know that from a human perspective, I get it. I get it. You're speaking to someone who was outspoken. You're speaking to someone who would probably really enjoy being on stage and teaching all of these things. and yet I am telling us that we have to defer to the word of God. But the question is, while we defer to the word of God is, is this, what is God's willingness? What do these verses mean?

Are these cultural verses to be thrown out? Are they truths that still apply today? What is a woman's role in the church in 2019? What does all of this mean? So we have to take a step back and we have to look. Again, when we don't know something about scripture, when we disagree, with something that has to do with scripture. Instead of backing up and assessing our own feelings and validating how we feel, we have to say, okay, feelings, be quiet. Let's see what the word of God

says. If you haven't noticed, as we back up and kind of look at the context of all of this, if you haven't noticed, there has been a movement toward egalitarianism in the evangelical church. So what is egalitarianism? Within Christianity specifically, it's the idea that men and women are free to hold the same positions. Women can be pastors, they can lead men. The verse often cited for this, not always, but often is Galatians 328. There is neither Jew nor Greek. There is neither slave nor free.

There is neither male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And so, egalitarians would say there is radical equality in the Church of God. There is no difference. God does not look at anatomy when choosing who shall lead in the body of Christ. On the other end, typically we see complementarianism, which is the idea that men and women are equal in worth, but they differ in their roles. Now, some would say that this is basically a patriarchy because traditional complementarianism holds that men are still in charge. They're supposed to be the teachers and the pastors, the only ones exercising authority within the church. Okay, maybe so, I would say to that, to people who say that it's a patriarchy.

complementarians don't believe that women can't have any leadership within the church, just that they can't exercise authority over men as the passages that we read say. So whatever you want to call it. This position is that men and women are different. God has given them different roles, different strengths to be displayed within the church. Men are to be in a position of teaching adult men and women. They are also the elders. Typically, this means that women can teach children.

they can teach other women. They can have other roles within the church where they are not teaching adult men from scripture. And the verses typically cited are the verses that we already listed at the top. 1 Timothy 2, 11 through 12. I don't permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man. 1 Corinthians 1434, as in all the churches of the saints, the women should be kept silent or should keep silent in the churches. So what is true? We've got this egalitarian view. And then we also have this complementarian view. And the egalitarian view is also associated and often associated with Christian feminism, really purposely putting women in positions of power. And then, like I said, complementarianism is often associated with what some people call usually pejoratively a more

patriarchal view. So what is rights? Well, as we always do in this podcast, as I do in my own study of scripture, when we have passages that seem to our finite minds, to contradict one another, rather than throwing them out in favor of the other, we go into scripture, into God's truth to try to reconcile what feels confusing to us. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't

just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We have. ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. So let's first look at these seemingly offensive verses in First Timothy and in First

Corinthians that tell women to be quiet in the church. The important thing for us is to ask not just what all of these readings mean to us, or really, that's not what we ask at all. The question is, what does this mean? Not what does this mean to me, but what does this mean? And to decipher meaning, we have to look at context, and we have to look at the entirety of scripture. So let's look at this context. For 1st, First Timothy 2, 11 through 12, I do not permit a woman to teach her to exercise authority over a man. Rather, she is to remain quiet. That's the part, ladies, that really gets us. The remain quiet part.

We're like, are you sure about that? And a lot of people have said, oh, well, this is just Paul. Paul was a misogynist. This doesn't have to do with God at all. But of course, well, that's not true. Then we just throw out all parts of scripture that are written by Paul. That's a good chunk of the New Testament, lady. In this letter and in this chapter in 1 Timothy,

Paul is speaking about the church when it is assembled together. So that is the context. As far as we can see and light of the red, rest of scripture in light of the original Greek, in light of the context of this letter. He is not talking about authority in general outside of the church. He is talking about when the church is assembled together. He says that women are, A, not to teach a man or B, to exercise authority. Some people have argued that it is only authoritative teaching that women are not allowed to do,

but, or here it denotes that it is teach a man or exercise authority over a man of the church. so that means various positions of authority within the church that is exercised over a man. So that does not include, as we've already talked about, the teaching of children, which is discussed in 2.5, and this does not include teaching women, like it says in Titus 2.4. It is very specific, should not teach a man, should not exercise authority over a man in the church. The arguments against the modern application of this verse from Christian egalitarians and Christian feminist or that while this is cultural, women weren't educated back then as they are now. And so they were perpetuating false doctrine.

So that's why Paul said that. But that doesn't apply to today. A lot of people would say. But here's the problem with that is that if you keep reading the next verse is Paul actually tells us why. He tells us exactly why he says what he said. And it actually has nothing to do with education and nothing to do with false doctrine. So the next verse says, for Adam was formed first.

then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. So first, we know from this word four that he gives us a reason. And like I said, he doesn't list education. He doesn't list false teaching after that. There were a lot of highly educated women actually during this time. And all the false teachers that Paul has already listed in some of his letters were men. And so we have really no historical grounding whatsoever, or logical grounding, whatever, to believe that. He goes all the way back to creation for his reasoning, which tells us that there is something transcendent

rather than something cultural about the roles women are given in the church. Now, why does he say that Adam was formed first as the reason? Because if we go all the way back to Genesis, all the way back to the creation account, we see that God's design for men is different than it is for a woman, that God created Adam first. He gave him particular responsibilities. And when he saw that it wasn't good for a man to be alone, he made woman. So there are a couple things that we can draw from this creation account in Genesis. Man was given different and even greater responsibilities than the woman

was, but he needed what Genesis calls a helper. The helper was not an accessory, but a necessity. He could not go it alone. He was given someone to compliment him, to support him, to come alongside him. The Hebrew word used to describe Eve in Genesis is is there, which means helper. It's used 21 times. In the Old Testament, it's often used to describe God. It is used typically in the context of offering life-sustaining or life-saving aid. So again, I will say from the beginning, woman was a necessity to man, not an accessory to man.

And she was also not created at the same time as man. same way as man or given the same roles as man. So this goes all the way back to the very beginning. That is the reason that Paul cites for why women should not exercise authority over men in the church because it reflects something all the way back to creation. So this has nothing to do with cultural relevance. This has something to do with God's design from the very beginning. So when Paul in 1 Timothy cites Adam as a reason for men exercising authority over women in the church, he is going back to the beginning. Also, important to note that Paul in the New Testament often compares Adam to Jesus. Jesus is the new Adam. Romans 518 through 19 calls Jesus refers to Jesus as the new

and better Adam. As Adam brought sin into the world, God, or Jesus saved the world from sin. So I want you to follow me for a second. Who does the Bible also say, God through Paul also say is the head of the church? Jesus. Colossians 118, says, and he is the head of the body, the church, says the same thing in Ephesians. He also uses the headship of Jesus over the church to explain marriage. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, his body and is himself its savior. So what can be deduced from that? What can be deduced from all of this in light of scripture, in light of creation, in light of Jesus's headship over the church, that men's teaching an authoritative role

in the church is reflective of an order that God ordained. in creation and reaffirmed through redemption. Okay, let me say that again. Men's teaching an authoritative role in the church is reflective of an order that God ordained in creation and reinstated through redemption. The same is true for our other, quote, problematic passage that we listed in the beginning. First Corinthians 1434, as in all the churches of the saints, the women should be, should keep, I keep saying, be kept silent.

it's the women should keep silent in the churches for they are not permitted to speak but should be in submission. There's a submission word again that so many of us women don't like when we first read it. Now, just a note here, 1 Corinthians 11, 5 and 13 clearly give women the freedom to both prophesy and to pray in the church. So in light of that, it doesn't seem that Paul is giving a mandate for them to be completely silent all the time, like an absolute prohibition for making any noise. But in the context that he is talking about, he is likely talking about any kind of talk that is, again, exercising authority or teaching.

You have to look at scripture as a whole. You have to look at the book as a whole, the chapter as a whole, and we have to examine the context. Okay, so keep tracking with me. If you watch, you will notice that the churches that have female pastors nowadays, the churches that believe in this kind of egalitarianism,

the so-called Christian feminism, the ones that don't really believe in biblical gender roles. Often, though not always, but often they give way on other biblical issues as well. They very often, you will see, reject God's view of biblical marriage and embrace gay marriage. So why is that? You could say, because when you start picking and choosing pieces of scripture to fit your own worldview, that all the culturally inconvenient stuff just kind of is left out, which is true, That's true. That is what happens when you base it on what is culturally cool or what your feelings are, what's easy. You kind of just start picking and choosing what is easy for you. So that is true. But it is also bigger than that. It's bigger than that. We've already seen that the male headship that God through Paul commands is a reflection of creation. And we have also seen in Romans that Jesus is the new and better Adam. And we have also seen that just as Adam was the head of Eve,

that Jesus is the head of the church and just as Jesus is the head of the church, so the husband is the head of the wife. These are all three marriages that reflect divine dichotomy between husbands and wives from creation to redemption. Furthermore, Ephesians 219 and 1st Timothy 315 called the church the household of God. So we are a family. The structure of the church is to reflect the structure that God set up for the family, which is that the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church. So if you miss that, if you miss that very real, very purposeful and very eternal setup of the relationship between men and women in the church, between husbands and wives

and Christian marriage, and between Christ and the church, if you miss all of that, that is a deliberate and reflective spiritual truth, it is easy to see how you would find yourself compromising on the definition of marriage as one between a man and a woman. And then subsequently, consequently, on many other parts of scripture. That is the kind of interpretation that happens when you assume that verses you don't like are probably unnecessary. That's what happens with that. That is what happens when you assume that you know better than God. When you replace yourself at the center of the word rather than God, you end up compromising, you end up with really poor theology that is based on whatever you want to base it on. You end up being what Paul describes as

just a child being tossed by the waves. Whatever is popular at the time, that's what you base your theology on. Well, that's not what we're called to do. Now, I don't, I don't, gosh, I don't have any patience for hearing about there was this tweet thread not that long ago about how Christianity and the Bible really is so patriarchal. And, or, well, I shouldn't say that because it's usually used as a pejorative. It's not used as a pejorative in the Bible. How it is oppressive. How it hates women.

How it denigrates women. How it objectifies women. That is not true. The necessity and the value of women is on display throughout scripture from Eve to Sarah, to Miriam, to Rehab, to Deborah, to Esther, to Ruth, to Mary, to Martha, to Priscilla, to Phoebe. I think that's in order I'm not completely sure. but all of these women throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament were of value.

They were of purpose. They were used according to God's will to advance his purpose, to advance his kingdom. Women are valuable in the eyes of God. He wouldn't have made women if they weren't. He wouldn't have made them as a necessity rather than as an accessory, what we said earlier, if he didn't think that they were important and valuable and made in his own image. If we look at the life of Jesus, Jesus locked eyes with the woman caught in adultery. Jesus engaged with the woman at the well.

Jesus touched and healed the bleeding woman who was considered unclean that probably no one had touched in years. God loves women. He values women. He made women for a purpose. He made women in his own image. And we as wives in Christian marriage have the privilege of being compared to Christ's bride. Men don't have that same privilege, but we do, which is the church. And you know how husbands are to care for their wives according to this passage in Ephesians 5?

Ephesians 5 says, husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word so that he might present the church to himself in splendor without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way, husbands should love their wives as their own. own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it just as Christ does the church because we are members of his body. So there is that dichotomy that reflection again between marriage, between one husband,

between one wife is reflective of Christ and the church. And what a privilege, what an honor it is to be a Christian wife. What an honor it is. Christ died for his church. And this passage is saying that husbands should treat wives in that same way, that they should lay their lives down for their wife. You want to tell me in light of that that God doesn't have a high view of women, that God doesn't care about women, that God doesn't rejoice in the unique beauty and the purpose

and roles of women. Just look at how much he cares for us. I mean, there's a whole chapter in proverbs. dedicated to a godly Christian wife and woman and what that life looks like. There is so much beauty and joy in being a Christian woman, so much privilege if you want to use that word, so much honor and being a Christian woman that we get to be co-laborers with our brothers and our sisters in Christ.

We get to be co-laborers with Christ, and it's true what Galatian says, 328, that there is no male nor female, Jew, nor Greek, whatever, etc. And that is true. when we look in light of the rest of scripture, when we look at the context of this verse, we see that that means when we're talking about participation within the saints, when we're talking about participation

in the church participation in the kingdom of God, when we're talking about our value as co-labors, when we're talking about salvation, there is no distinction, but that doesn't mean that God doesn't have a specific system, a specific structure, and yes, a specific hierarchy of submission for men and women within the church and within Christian marriage. He does. And it's reflective of a much

bigger, a much more eternal reality than the one that we can see. And that's why we don't mess with that. That's why we don't mess with the idea that men are supposed to be the ones exercising authority over women in the church. That's why we don't mess with the idea of a man and a woman being joining Christian marriage and only a man in a woman being joining Christian marriage. And that the man is the head of the wife because it demonstrates, Christ and the church. That is a symbol of the gospel. And that is why you see people who compromise on Christian marriage, who compromise on gender roles, also compromising on different parts of the Bible, because it's not just this physical reality. It's a spiritual reality. So that's why having a right

view of women in the church is important. It's much bigger than the politics of the day. It's much bigger than the politics of Paul's day. It has to do with the gospel. Now, when I say it has to do with the gospel, I am not trying to say that this is a salvation issue. Now, I will say that, like I've said, compromising on this typically leads to compromising on other things, or it's typically associated with compromising on other things, but I'm not saying that we can't honestly disagree on this, and you're not saved. I'm not saying that it is a, I'm not saying that it's a, that's a salvation issue because it's not. But I just want to make the point, the point in this really whole episode, that those of you, especially women, who like me, are initially thrown off. We're initially

perturbed. Like, we don't really like these verses. We don't really like this idea. The verses that say that you need to be quiet in church, you can't exercise authority that you have to submit to your husband. I'm telling you this so that you know that I understand where you're coming from, but we have to take a step back. We have to stop. We have to lay down our pride and remind ourselves of the gospel, the beautifully, that is beautifully reflected in the hierarchy of the church and of marriage, which was first demonstrated in history in the creation and realized that, wow, thank you. Thank you, God, for doing this for us, that I get to be a part of that. That I am so undeserving to be a part of Christ's church.

I am so undeserving of playing a role in the kingdom of God. I am so undeserving of all of that. I will play any role you want me to, God. I am humbled that you even want me. I'm humbled that you died for me. I will do anything that you want me to do. Of course. Thank you, God, for giving me this role.

And thank you for caring so much that you believe that my husband should love me as you love the church. That's amazing. That should be our posture as women. One of gratitude, one of humility, one of wonder. As we look at how God set up these structures to reflect the gospel, that should be our attitude. Not one of pride, not one of arrogance, not one of insistent. not one of insistence on our own way, not one of trying to fit into the culture, but one of absolute awe, that the God of the universe would have us play such a crucial role. He didn't have

to do that. He didn't have to save us. He didn't have to paint this beautiful picture of Christ in the church and marriage and Adam. He didn't have to do all that, but he did because he's a good and loving and faithful God. And if you are caught up, if you are caught up on these verses, if you are caught up in all of these feminists telling you that these verses should be thrown out because it's a part of the evil patriarchy, might I suggest, might I submit that you are holding on to an idol that you need to let go off? That it is actually idolatry that is telling you that in order to truly be a Christian or an order to truly love God or to truly be a part of the body of Christ that you have to be in

the same teaching authority as a man, I would let go of that idol. that would be my charge to you because it's against God's word and God's word is bigger and better than all of us. And man or woman, we have to submit to it no matter what it says. So I hope that answers a lot of your questions. I'm sure that there's so many more angles that we could talk through. There's a lot that we could talk about and that, but I at least wanted to give you a primer to help you understand where I'm coming from. I'm asked about this all the time and to give you the biblical foundation for what I believe about this, what God's Word says. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next time.

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this T-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.