Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1317 | This Pastor's Phone Call Shook His Progressive Governor | Jeff Schwarzentraub

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Starting point is 00:01:38 and shining light in the darkness and speaking the truth in love and how we can actually make a difference by seemingly small acts of obedience to God. This is an incredibly edifying and educational conversation that you guys are going to love. So without further ado, here is Pastor Jeff. Pastor Jeff, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. Could you tell everyone who may not know who you are and what you do? Yeah, my name is Jeff Swarzenraub. I'm the senior pastor of Brave Church in the Denver, Colorado area.

Starting point is 00:02:17 Yes, and you all are indeed brave against this backdrop of Denver, which, as we were talking about before the camera started rolling, has changed a lot in the past several years. Can you talk about some of the changes you've seen in the city over the past decade or so? Yeah, so originally I'm from Central Illinois. I lived in Dallas for four years, probably similar vibe. There's a cultural Christianity vibe to it. When we moved out to Denver, we realized very quickly that is not the vibe in Denver,

Starting point is 00:02:45 which is one of the reasons we wanted to go and plant there. But even since we've been there over the last 15 years, I mean, with the legalization of marijuana, I mean, people move to Denver, I say for the 3Ms, for marijuana, for the mountains, and for mile high if they like the Broncos. And so that's really why they come. People do not migrate to Denver for community. They migrate for hedonism. And so what you see in our culture is a group of people.

Starting point is 00:03:12 My wife and I were talking about it this morning. We used to say Denver is the happiest group of lost people on the entire planet. People move there to be outdoors, to be active, to enjoy what they do, and usually do it by themselves. It's a very hedonistic lifestyle and culture. Would you say over the past 15 years that you've been there, the hedonism has increased? Oh, absolutely. I mean, when people start going down a road where I'm going to live for me and it's all about me, there's no you turn on that road apart from Christ. And so it just keeps spiraling that way. Yeah. It's crazy how Colorado has turned so deeply secular and progressive. It didn't used to be that way. It was a conservative stronghold for a long time. And then I guess migration from the blue states, maybe even immigration, just changed the demographics, changed the politics. And now it kind of helps along with California, Oregon and Washington lead the charge for like progressive radicalism. Like we're talking the most radical transgender ideology in the country has been passed. legislatively in the state of Colorado. So can you talk about that? Because some people may not know

Starting point is 00:04:21 how far gone. I don't want to use that terminology, but seemingly, politically, Colorado is. Yeah. And I would say this, 2020 changed me huge. I think it did for every pastor, right? Because you're doing a case study live. Like, what are we going to do? Here's what the government's saying, we're going to slow the spread for 14 days. You got to wear a mask. You got to get a vaccine. All these different things. And we were really questioning that from the beginning. And very quickly we opened our doors. And because I was one that just said, I don't want to get to heaven and meet Daniel who talked about being thrown in a lion's den or Shadrach, Meshach and Abedigo, being thrown in a fire,

Starting point is 00:04:57 all the martyrs that have been martyred for their faith, and then say, hey, what did you deal with? I'm like, well, we had to close down because there was COVID. And we were playing it safe. I couldn't do that. And so we opened our doors. And then we received a lot of threats from the health department, from Christians, from saying you don't love us, you don't care, all those different things. what we've seen is just this whole progressive ideology move. So there was a House Bill 1312 that

Starting point is 00:05:23 got passed. It got modified a little bit because people put up a big fight. But basically in Colorado, what they were, what they're trying to do is be able to take your kids, be able to castrate them or do whatever they want without your permission. And if you don't agree, they don't even have to tell you. And so I find myself in a unique position because I think the way I was trained, the way I was raised is like keep the gospel, the gospel, make it about the cross, burial, the resurrection of Jesus, don't get involved in politics. Because I grew up in Peoria, Illinois, which was a melting pot and a test market for everything. I grew up with Democrats, Republicans, but that was in an era of Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan. So we would, our parents would

Starting point is 00:06:02 vote different. We'd all play football together and eat Thanksgiving dinner, and nobody cared. We didn't talk about it. But it's moved from a right and left issue to a right and wrong issue. And so everything that I feel like I get involved with that's quote unquote political, they're just biblical issues. So the transgender issue, that's a biblical issue. That's not a political issue. God created two genders male and female. You can't even get out of Genesis chapter one and not believe that. So when we've teach the Bible, we teach the Bible. And so if you really want to tick off leftists, just teach Genesis 1 because leftists are saying, well, we don't know how we got here. Well, God says you got here because I'm God and I've always existed. So there's one God. He says there's

Starting point is 00:06:40 two genders, male and female. And he says there's one race and I created all this in six days. And so when you talk about all the racist, you know, people say everybody's racist these days. We talk about racism being an issue. Talk about transgender being an issue. You talk about all these things. God is addressing those in the very first chapter of his word very authoritatively for us to be able to say, hey, this is what it is. So I found myself on the state capital speaking truth, doing things I never thought I would do. I have no desire to make a political run.

Starting point is 00:07:08 I have no desire to get involved. But to stay silent on biblical issues is to be complicit with evil. and I just won't do it. Yes. And in case some people think that you're exaggerating when you're saying, oh, Colorado wants to take kids away from their parents. Now, this is true. And you're referring to, I think, the Kelly Loving Act, correct?

Starting point is 00:07:27 Yeah. That was passed last year. It's supposed to go into effect in October 2026. And this is, well, I guess there might be two different ones. So there's one that has to do with pronouns, so-called gender expressions, that requires you to affirm. and respect someone's pronouns if they identify as the opposite sex. And there is another piece of legislation that basically calls it child abuse.

Starting point is 00:07:54 If a parent says, you know, I'm not going to go along with this. My 12-year-old boy says he's a girl, well, I'm not going to put him on puberty blockers, chemically castrate him. I'm going to tell him the truth. I'm going to love him. I'm going to help him affirm his masculinity. That is considered child abuse and could possibly put your custody of your own child at risk in the state of Colorado. That's exactly right. And it's ridiculous. And I find that too many churches

Starting point is 00:08:20 are afraid to stand up and say that's wrong. And that's not even a political issue. That's just a biblical issue. That's just what it means to be a parent. That's what it means to love your child. That's how God designed them and you're responsible for them. So yeah, I see that gender ideology. I see the radical leftist movement in Colorado. And so people, I mean, having lived in Dallas before for four years, there's a cultural Christianity vibe. I mean, if you go work out at a health club, you can hear people talking where they go to church and what they thought about the service. I've never heard that in Denver one time. People don't talk like that. And so that's why we like being where we are just to be a voice from the Lord saying this is the way walking in it. Yeah. And you joined other pastors last year in the Denver area to try to push back against this legislation. I remember you wrote an open letter, right?

Starting point is 00:09:11 To the legislature saying, hey, slow your role. Think about it. this, I urge you not to sign on to this, not to pass this pro-transgender anti-parental rights legislation, right? Absolutely. Because, again, every time I do that, I find myself looking up to the heavens like, God, why me? This is, I'm not, but I have to. I have to. For the sake of the next generation, if you care about our kids, if you care about the family, if you care about church. And what I learned in 2020 is that God loves his church. He'll do anything to protect his church. And our job in the church is to honor him and to honor his word and to stay true to what he wants. And then his job is to protect what we do. We tend to do it the other way around.

Starting point is 00:09:54 We try to protect ourselves. We try to, hey, what can I and can't I say to keep members here? What do I need to do to protect the church? And then we miss out on all the truth that God has for a culture. And so I think it's imperative for pastors of churches, whether you're in conservative areas or liberal areas, to preach the word. unapologetically in such a way where people can hear it. And the only thing they can do with the word is they can accept it or reject it. Those are only two options.

Starting point is 00:10:22 And so I just find that there's not, you know, people ask me all the time, are other pastors just cowards? I don't know that they're cowards and that they're afraid to stand up. I just don't know that enough pastors trust the authority of God's word enough to say, this is what I'm called to do and I'm going to stand on this no matter what. Because I'm not an authority on the word. The word's an authority over me. first sponsor for the day is we heart nutrition i love we heart nutrition i have been relying on them for my supplements for a couple years now i was coming out of a time after postpartum after my third baby

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Starting point is 00:12:01 Weheartnutrition.com code Alley. I know a lot of pastors who are solid guys. They love their families. They seem to love the Lord. and they will preach God's word, but they will not claim God's authority over every sphere of life. So they might stop short of calling on the civil magistrate to stop legislation that is evil and could hurt kids. Maybe they would preach through Genesis 1, but they would say, okay, that's where my responsibility ends. I'm not going into the civic realm and saying, don't pass this law.

Starting point is 00:12:40 But you said, no, it's not only my responsibility to preach the gospel and preach God's word, but I also need to use this pulpit and use this platform to call on the governors, the legislators, to say, no, no, no, this is wrong and here's why. Right. I mean, even if you read through your Bible, just a cursory reading, I mean, John the Baptist wasn't beheaded because he was going into the synagogue and teaching about marriage being between one man and one woman. He was standing outside the king's palace, telling him he was immoral and wrong. And that's what cost us. him his life. So I think we've missed the mark on what it is. We think teaching the word is just,

Starting point is 00:13:15 hey, our job is just to teach Christians. No, our job is to herald the word in a culture that's not willing to hear it. And that's where we have to stand up because I believe this wholeheartedly. And I know you knew Charlie. I knew Charlie. We had him to our church. One of the things I loved about Charlie was Charlie would say the most important message in the world is the gospel. But the second is fighting for a culture that will allow the gospel to flourish. Now, to be clear, the gospel will flourish in any environment. The gospel can flourish in totalitarian environments. It can. But nobody wants to live in that regime. And if Christians don't stand up and live out the gospel and call people to live the gospel, then we will be living in a culture that we never ever wanted because the leftists,

Starting point is 00:13:54 I'm not talking about people that lean left democratic. I'm talking about people that have an anti-biblical agenda, which is a big part of that party right now going that way. If you're going that way and nobody's standing in the line saying, no, we're going to hold the line. We're going to, we're going to do this, then the whole culture is going to go that way. And culture is downstream from politics, and politics is downstream from family, and family's downstream from the church. And if the church does not herald the word of God clearly to the entire city that it's in, then we have the mess that we're in. And when the cultural mess comes, then people like, well, that's just culture. That's just, no, that's from bad preaching of the word of God in your culture.

Starting point is 00:14:30 Yeah, we've been using an alliteration for several years on this show. Politics matter because policy matters, because people matter. Politics affects policy, policy affects people. People matter to God, and they matter to us. And therefore, the Christian does have a responsibility to involve ourselves in politics because our politics affect our unborn neighbor. They affected Lake and Riley. They affect people who are impacted by all different kinds of immigration, economic, abortion, gender policies. And if we love our neighbor, then the most loving thing we can do is agree with God, both privately and publicly. and I always talked about this concept that some pastors, you mentioned some pastors, they don't

Starting point is 00:15:12 fully trust in the authority of scripture just to be their guiding light and to say, this is what God's word says, I'm not going to apologize for it, because a lot of people think that they're nicer than God, that maybe they can out compassion God, or they need to kind of let God off the hook because some people think God is so mean for saying there's only two genders. And let me nuance this a little a bit because I think my message could actually be more persuasive than the message of the creator of the universe. And at the end of the day, it's no small thing that's actually self-idolatry. That goes all the way back to the garden of like, I want to be like God. I want to be the one to determine good and evil, right? It's 100% pride. And I find that too. If we would have been doing

Starting point is 00:15:59 this podcast maybe 10 years ago or something like this, we were living in a different time. I mean, I mean, the culture has shifted so quickly in a direction that, you know, and the way I was trained, like I said, here's the gospel. The gospel's the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. That's it. But it's not because the gospel changes who I am. It changes my identity and how I'm supposed to live. And if the gospel is just getting people to heaven, we miss out on everything that God's doing in his word. The gospel changes me. Yes, there's nothing I can do. There's no works I can do. All that stuff is true. So I believe in Jesus. But believing is not just a cognitive mental assent. Like, okay, I believe Jesus died. It's he's the Lord of my life. And if he's the Lord, then he gets to control what I do. And so when I see things that are wrong in a culture and I don't confront them or I don't live differently, then I'm being complicit with that cultural norm. And so, you know, we already mentioned Daniel. We mentioned Shadrach, Meshach, Abedigo. You go through the Bible and every single person, the Apostle Paul.

Starting point is 00:16:54 I mean, every time they rolled into a culture, they weren't rolling in to see how they could warmly greet everybody and love it. They were rolling in with, there's a whole different way to live. Jesus Christ is Lord. We're called to submit to him, to love each other radically. And what you talked about, we have the message of love wrong. We think love is a feeling. No, love is a decision to preference to others and show them the truth. And so what you're doing on your show, I appreciate you.

Starting point is 00:17:20 I know my wife appreciate you. You're a voice of clarity in a world of confusion. And so it's an honor to be here talking to you. Oh, well, thank you. Well, I feel the same way. And pastors who are clear from the pulpit make the podcast. castor's job a lot easier. It's much harder to be a pastor than it is to be a podcaster because you are not only talking from a pulpit, but you're shepherding a flock of people that God has

Starting point is 00:17:43 entrusted to you to help steward their souls to heaven, but also to advance God's kingdom on earth. And that's a really big task. And when someone is going to a church and they're not getting clarity from their pastor, and they're like, okay, I got that message, but I still have no idea what right and wrong is when it comes to these issues, I'm just going to turn on relatable. I'm happy to help give clarity, but I'm not a pastor. I don't want to be a pastor. I would love to be an auxiliary help to your pastor, but my hope is that every pastor from a pulpit would be so clear that every congregate would then walk away and say, okay, I know exactly what God's word says about abortion or about gender. Now I'll listen to Allie just for fun. But we've kind of gotten into this mess where

Starting point is 00:18:31 a lot of people feel like they have to turn to podcasters because their pastor just won't tell them the truth. That's exactly right. I mean, you're preaching for me because if I could say anything to pastors out there is trust the word. I know when we launched our church, you know, in 2010 and, you know, we started with 12 people on lunch Sunday. We had 208 and then I bragged that we grew it to 113 and all that stuff. But there were so many times where I'm just rolling through a text and I would tell Kim, my wife, you know, this week, I'm like, this is going to be a congregational tremor. You know, people aren't going to like this. inevitably some of the times it was. But I remember thinking when we first started the church, I'm like, my youth group in Texas was bigger than this church. What am I doing wrong? And I was really

Starting point is 00:19:10 encouraged by some of my mentors. It's not about the size of your church. Just keep preaching who you want to disciple and then they will come. And now we're in a place after 15 years of doing this that when people walk into Brave, they know they're going to get the word. I mean, I don't have to apologize for anything. I can preach any text in the Bible and people are hungry for it and they want it and they're thankful for it and so good. And that's why I tell our church all the time, there's no other church. I would rather pastor than y'all because we're building something together and God's doing something. And to your point, we are standing against a culture that is very, very different than us right in the center of Denver. And so, and we love that. And we love it.

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Starting point is 00:20:32 use my code relatable. You'll get up to 20% off on your order. Coseearup.com code relatable. You know, you mentioned COVID, and I know we've kind of gotten off of that, and I kind of want to go back, because you said that that really changed how you thought about politics. And in some ways, leadership and the gospel and how you preach things, what I find interesting is that for a lot of people, they look back at COVID and they're like, well, that made me really scared. That was the era that my fear deepened where my mistrust. deep end. And it sounds like for you and your church, you're saying, well, actually, God used that very fearful, chaotic time to make us braver and to make us bolder and to make us more clear. Can you talk more about that? The lessons that you learn during COVID. Yeah, I mean, there's myriads of lessons. I think it was a case study and process like we talked about. But as we prayed about it, I was like, we have to open our doors. Like, how can you make disciples if you're not in person? Like, how can you do what we're called to do if we're not going to meet together? And the Bible says

Starting point is 00:21:35 you should meet together and all the more as you see the day approaching. And why should I have to listen to somebody saying that strip clubs and marijuana dispensaries are essential, but my church isn't? And so I remember I was on a phone call with our governor about the third time they had one of these clergy calls. And my friend who had worked in the governor's office told me how to hit star six or something. I can't remember and get in the queue. And I was the third person up. And they said, okay, Pastor Jeff from Brave Church. And I remember asking, this was very early on. I'm like, hey, governor, appreciate what you do. Appreciate the fact, no matter what you choose, people are going to be upset with you. We're praying for you because we're called to do that in the word. I just have a

Starting point is 00:22:09 question. I'm kind of curious right now why you've trimmed our churches down to 50 people. You make us have six feet of space. We have to wear masks. You're thinking about trimming it to 10. And yet I can go to Home Depot or Lowe's or King Supers or wherever I go. There's thousands of people walking around unmasks. And so I just want to know what to tell our congregation. So I'll tell them whatever you say. And I'm going to hang up and listen to you. And I hung up and he just started ranting for five minutes. and I knew he was scared and I knew he didn't have an answer. And it was right then I'm listening. I'm like, we're opening our doors.

Starting point is 00:22:39 And so when we did, you know, I think the first Sunday back, we had like 72 people or something like that. And I was in the front during worship crying with my wife. Like, I will always keep our doors open. I'll never shut them again. And then we grew like during that time. So I think pre-COVID were about 1,800 people. Post-COVID we were close to 5,000 people. We had to get a different building and everything.

Starting point is 00:22:58 And then our whole congregation changed because the people that came. Like I remember a guy that walked into our church. He was with his daughters. He didn't know as the pastor. And I could overhear him talking to his daughters. I won't say exactly what he said. But he said something in effect of he was walking around because we would put up signs, but we didn't enforce anything.

Starting point is 00:23:15 And so it was the first place he'd been with a large group of people that were Christian where nobody's wearing a mask and everybody's happy. And I remember he said to his daughter, he's like, I don't care if this pastor stinks. This is our church. Wow. And so what I learned during 2020, one of the other things was that the church dictates what the church should be doing. We don't take our cues from the government who tells us we need to close.

Starting point is 00:23:35 If we need to close, we'll decide that we need to close. You can't tell us we can close. That's not your role. You're overstepping your bounds. You're overstepping your reach. That's our role. And what I realized is when I'm praying in 2020 with my wife in the kitchen before I go to church in Denver, Colorado. And I'm praying with her because my kids were younger then saying, hey, if I go to prison day, if I get arrested, just tell the kids, I'm got a daddy's going to go share the gospel in a different place.

Starting point is 00:23:59 He'll be home later this afternoon. it made me mad that I'm living in America and that happened. And what makes me frustrated is what people don't realize is if pastors of churches don't stand up and start being bold like that, that is going to happen. And when it happens, it's going to happen because of the cowardice in the pulpit and people that wouldn't stand or people that said, I just don't want to be political. I don't want to get involved. It's too much time. You have to be involved if you care for people, if you love people, if you love God, because God is involved with the culture. He is. He wants to see people change. He doesn't just want to get me to heaven. If he wanted to get me to

Starting point is 00:24:34 heaven, he'd take me to heaven the moment I trusted him. He wants me to be used by him as his mouthpiece, as a life that reflects the glory of God. And so 2020 was radically changing for me. It's made me stronger. I have a lot more respect for the guys that kept their churches open. Like Jack Hibbs, I didn't know who Jack Hibbs was before 2020. And I'm watching him. I'm like, okay, he's one of us. I was watching Dr. John MacArthur, keeping his church open. And they were just being state they weren't being rude, they weren't being mean, they were just being honest. And I'm like, these guys are my tribe. Yeah, totally. You talked about briefly there, like the authority of the government, what they can and can't do, the responsibility of the government. A lot of people

Starting point is 00:25:14 listen to conservative or what I would just call biblical arguments for these issues and the limited role of the state and the authority of the family and the church. And they're thinking, okay, but we have all of these people to care for, and I don't want to vote against the programs, the welfare, that helps the homeless, that help the poor. It just feels more compassionate. Maybe they're even thinking, okay, I might agree with you on the trans stuff or on the abortion stuff, but isn't it compassionate to use all of our tax dollars, the way the Democratic Party says that we should, to help these people in need? Is that the role of the government and Where does the church come into that conversation?

Starting point is 00:25:58 Well, some of it's my opinion. And I don't see any government programs that are so fantastic that are helping all these people. I think the church could do a better job if the church could do this. But even when church does benevolence, it can turn into a welfare system too, right? If you don't have some things in place and what tends to happen is taxes increase, increase, increase, increase, with the promise that if you just give us more money, we'll make it better. And it's never been the case. it's never been the case in my lifetime. And so even going back to our founding documents

Starting point is 00:26:29 and the freedom of speech and you know what people say in the church is, oh, separation of church and state, separate. And you're very familiar with all this. You realize it was a Thomas Jefferson letter to the Danbury Baptist telling them, hey, we will not interfere with what you want to do as a church. That was the separation of church and state.

Starting point is 00:26:44 It was to keep the government out of the church, not to keep the church out of the government. So I think we have to have Christians that are living for Jesus in government positions that are making policy that align with the Word of God for the betterment of all the people. So for me to sit here and say every government program is terrible, it always has been, that's not my point. My point is if people take personal responsibility and they look to help people,

Starting point is 00:27:10 we would choose differently than what we're currently doing. Yeah. There are people listening and watching who may not be Christians, or maybe they just have a bad impression of the church. I heard this very popular podcast or a liberal podcaster the other day. said white evangelicals are a cancer to our country. They're the worst people in the world. White evangelicals specifically. So that's her, you know, racial description. But when I look at evangelicals, no matter what their skin color is, and really just Christians who go to church, who believe in God's word,

Starting point is 00:27:41 who live out God's word, they are some of the most generous and charitable and giving and compassionate people in the country. And actually statistics show that. So can you give us some examples of what your church does in a culture, in a city that doesn't really like the message that you're preaching and what you do, how do you tangibly love those communities and love those groups rather than just outsourcing the compassion to the government? Yeah, we do a lot of what we do through what we call cadres. Codres are small groups on a mission. That's what they are. And so it's interesting because everybody in a church, because of their gifting, has a different pull to a different type of thing.

Starting point is 00:28:17 So if you're an evangelist from the time you're born, you think everybody needs to go out on 16th Street and share the gospel every weekend, right? And then other people in the church, I don't want to do that. And then there's other people that have gifts of encouragement. They just want to come around and encourage everybody. So what we try to do is let people unleash what they want to do and be an influence with where they're at. So some of our guys that are entrepreneur business owners, hey, do it with those guys.

Starting point is 00:28:38 Some of the people that are stay at home on, do it with your tribe. I mean, so how we do it is relationally. I mean, that's for sure. But our people have learned that truth is a great commodity in these discussions. Because I think for a long time, whether it was a secret move, or, hey, I'm just going to come alongside. We're going to become best friends. And once we build enough trust, then I can share Christ with you. I feel like those days are over. Maybe it's because of just how God's wired me or maybe it's because we're living in the last days. But I think people

Starting point is 00:29:06 are hungry to know what is the truth and how do I know it? And can I see it lived out in a person's life? So one of the reasons that your podcast is so relatable, you're living out your values. This is not something that you talk about once a week or five times a week. This is something that you're living out with your husband, with your kids, with your family in your life, it means something to you. So when people hear you talk, that's what brings power to it. And so instead of coming up with myriads of programs, we don't come up with myriads of programs, we train people to live out their God-given call and their mandate to fulfill the Great Commission by using their sphere of influence to do that. Next sponsor is Good Ranchers. I love that I just don't have to think,

Starting point is 00:29:54 okay, what's for dinner tonight? All I have to do is pick one or two sides, but I know. that I've got my better than organic chicken. I've got my ground beef. I got my cuts of steak. I've got my salmon. I've got my bacon. All of these things to choose from in my freezer because I've got Good Ranchers that shows up on my front door, on dry ice every month, makes my life easier, more protein filled, a lot tastier and even more patriotic because all meat from Good Ranchers comes from American farms and ranches. And we know that you don't just vote every two years or every four years. You vote every day with your dollar. And when you make the choice to support this family-owned Christian-owned company that then supports these American farms and

Starting point is 00:30:33 ranches, you are sending a message that you are a part of this parallel economy that honors American values and Christian values. I love Ben and Corley. They're the real deal. It's an awesome company with just really high-quality products. Go to Good Ranchers.com. When you use Code Alley, you'll get $25 off your first order. Good Ranchers.com, code Alley. How do you encourage those Christians? I'm sure there's a lot of them in Denver. that they're working at a public school or they're working at a company that is completely opposed to their values, even wants to pressure them to use pronouns. So lie about someone, use pronouns that don't correspond with their sex. How do you help your congregants navigate truly living

Starting point is 00:31:19 out that truth and love dichotomy in such a dark space? Yeah, I mean, that's a challenging one, because it's really easy to say truth in kind of a flippant way. Like, who cares? You know, if you lose your job, you lose your job. You lose your job. job. Well, if you lose your job, you don't have income to provide for your wife and for your family. So that's, that's a big deal. But what we always say is you're, you never make the wrong decision by trusting God. You never make the wrong. God watches everything. He sees everything. And it depends on where you believe, who you believe your resource is. So if God is your resource, not your job, that gives you a ton of freedom to live for God, knowing that God's going to provide for you. God's got your back. And so that's how we

Starting point is 00:31:59 treat those things. And so we tell people, you can't be a born-again believer living out the mandates of the gospel and lie. Yeah. You can't. And so when you talk about the public school teacher, we have public school teachers that go to our church. We tell them, you are a light in a very dark place. And we love you and we stand for you and we pray for you. And we're encouraging you. And yeah, we understand it's difficult for you. You can't stand up on a platform in the lunchroom and say, thus say it the Lord, we get that. But if kids ask you questions, you know, we're praying that you would have those answers. And, you know, I just thought about this. So I was a youth pastor in a couple different cities.

Starting point is 00:32:33 So in Chicago, when I was a youth pastor in the Chicago area, you know, I was with my students and they were introducing me to their friends. It was almost like they were giving them a warning like, hey, this is my youth pastor, kind of like, be on your best behavior. Don't use bad language. Don't talk about what we did last night. When I lived in Texas, I would get invited to kids' schools. And when I would go in to have lunch with them, they would give me a badge.

Starting point is 00:32:53 And it was almost like, this is my youth pastor. Like, hey, the governor's here. Let's all sit with him. Yeah. I remember when we first moved. to Denver and, you know, we moved into our neighborhood and I was talking to my neighbor and asking what you do and asking him. And he asked me, he's like, what do you do for a living? I said, well, I pastor a church. We moved out here to planet church. Had I said, we just moved here from

Starting point is 00:33:12 another planet. The look on his face would have been the same. And he's like a pastor, like, is that like a real, like that's your job? Like you get paid to do. I mean, that's Denver. And so there's no like cultural, oh, it's our pastor. We love. Now there is within our church as we built it. but I just think, you know, we're living in a very progressive leftist state. And the funny thing is, I don't know that we totally are. I just think a lot of independence and some of the conservatives they just don't vote. I mean, you know this. If evangelical Christians just voted their biblical values, we would have a totally different set of governors, totally different set of people in the House and in the Senate. But so many evangelicals that complain about how bad the world's going,

Starting point is 00:33:54 don't even vote. Right. I've talked to people from Colorado who say that, that actually a lot of their community is just kind of instinctively conservative or at least libertarian. They're really not on board with a lot of the tyranny that we see from left-wing Democrats, but they're also, as you said, just kind of apathetic, individualistic, hedonistic. They kind of like California, wow, we have this beautiful state. We take advantage of the resources and we just kind of like don't want to bother anyone. And the truth is, in order to be what politics would call conservative, but in order to be publicly biblical, there's just not a lot of social incentive for that. There's not. You could get

Starting point is 00:34:35 punished at your job. You could get excluded from your friend group. You could be called a bigot online. You could be accused of the worst things ever. And most people don't have a desire to go against the grain because how does it help them? You really have to have a deep conviction that no, no, no, no, that's evil. This is right. I'm motivated by something bigger than myself and just what I want in the moment. So that's very insightful that you said earlier. It's not really, you know, these hard and fast progressive activists. It's a lot of individualistic self-centered people who just don't care enough. Yeah, we're living in an era of passivity and cowardice, and that's what it is. And so you know from your show, you know from what you do. If you're going to speak the truth,

Starting point is 00:35:19 there are going to be all sorts of threats and people that want to come after you, hurt you or whatever. And that's what shuts people up. And so it's fine, Allie, that you want to take that, but I don't want to take that. So I'm just going to keep quiet. We'll let Allie do her show because I agree with her. And I think there's a lot of Christians in the background that agree with other Christians that are standing out front. But when they take that little step, it could even be from their family.

Starting point is 00:35:41 Like, oh, you're one of them? Oh, we don't want to talk to you anymore. I mean, all that stuff. So earlier last year, I got to be in the Oval Office and pray over President Trump. And the picture went out on a news feed and I'm like, my whole family's going to see this. So I got to tell my family, well, my family's kind of like split down the middle politically. I knew it was going to cause division. And so, but I said, hey, I was in the White House today.

Starting point is 00:36:04 I got to pray over President Trump. And I sent a picture. And immediately, you know, some people, oh, great. And then there was just silence. And then the whole conversation shifted. But it's even like that, I think, for some people. So with family, with friends, like, hey, you know what? I just want to go out to dinner and have fun.

Starting point is 00:36:21 I don't want to be known as the person that stands against that or does that. And it's the same thing we tell young kids. You know, when they're going to say, hey, you don't need to go out drinking with your friends. You don't need to be immoral. You don't need to just stand firm. We're telling our kids to do that. Why don't we do that? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:36:34 And so I think the first time that you're standing firm and people are attacking you for some biblical truth, it really hurts. But then you start reading the word. And it's like, rejoice and be glad. Your reward in heaven's great. This is how they treat you to all the prophets. Yeah. So if you're going to stand firm, I tell people all the time, one plaque that I see nobody put up in their house is anyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. And that's the fact. So I think there's a lot of people that are on the sidelines cheering for people like you,

Starting point is 00:37:01 cheering for pastors that preach the truth, cheering for politicians that stand for what's right with biblical values. They just don't want to identify with them because if they do, they're going to get grief too and they don't want that. And it's time for all Christians everywhere to stand. Next sponsor is Alliance to Fitting Freedom. So thankful for ADF and how they fight for our rights all the way up to the Supreme Court, the rights of women and girls to be able to compete fairly, for example. And I've got a little story for you. There is a 17-year-old name Adelaia Cross. She was forced to compete against a male athlete who was allowed to play on the girls team. She lost out on competitive opportunities, was mocked on the field by this young man. She actually endured sexual, vulgar comments,

Starting point is 00:37:52 and abuse. I can't even say what this male athlete said to her, just gloating. that he was able to play and she wasn't. And she was actually kicked out of the girls' locker room because she didn't want to change in front of him. But Alliance Defending Freedom is defending her. Praise God alongside the Attorney General of West Virginia, making sure that she has a right to her own female exclusive spaces and sports. Go to join ADF.com slash Ali.

Starting point is 00:38:25 Send her an encouraging note. Send her a Bible verse. to let her know you're supporting her and supporting ADF, join ADF.com slash Allie. I can't remember the specific legislation in Colorado. You might know. It was a couple years ago, but there was some initiative that was pro-abortion, basically allowing abortion through all nine months. Colorado is a very radically pro-abortion state in every stage of development. They want to be the most pro-abortion state if we're not already. safe haven for abortion.

Starting point is 00:39:02 But at the same time, there was another initiative that was to protect some species of like wolf in Colorado. And I just thought it was an interesting and very sad and dark juxtaposition that you will protect this endangered species of animal in Colorado, but this human being who can feel pain, this image bearer of God, we can snuff out their life through poison and dismemberment, decapitation through all nine months of pregnancy, yes, pregnancy. And you've got people who are at worst supportive of it, but then also just apathetic toward it. 100%.

Starting point is 00:39:43 Well, you were asking, hey, what do you do in your city? Some of our cadres have been resistance cadres. So some of our cadres have gone to abortion clinics and stood in front of them. One actually shut down because of the work that we were doing. One, I know there was a gal that was there. We got to minister to. she decided to have her baby and send us a picture. We paid for her flight back home to Texas because she had flown in from Texas.

Starting point is 00:40:04 So there are stories of good things that the Lord is doing, but we tell our people all the time. I mean, we're living in Sodom. I mean, we're living in Gamora. We're right there doing all the same things. So how do we as believers love people and stand for truth and call people out? Because if we don't, nobody else is. So we had a group of our men probably two years ago. there was a drag queen story hour at a festival and they went and they just stood up and,

Starting point is 00:40:32 you know, basically said, we're for children and they turned their backs to the stage and just in protest, didn't do anything else, didn't say anything. And it made the news that Brave Church is this radical, hateful, all this kind of stuff. A couple of our guys ended up getting arrested, they were let off once they went to trial. I mean, but it's those kind of things. And there were people that even left our church. Like, if we're going to be that kind of person, you know, nobody's going to come to our alpha class anymore. I'm like, what are you talking about? Like if we don't stand for what's true in our culture, all we're doing is sitting over here on the side, patting ourselves in the back. And it reminds me of, you know,

Starting point is 00:41:07 when I hear Eric Mataxis talk and my grandfather who was Jewish who survived the Holocaust, you know, where Christian churches were gathered in Germany, singing hymns while trains were taking people to the concentration camps and they're not saying anything, that's wrong. That's wrong. And so when we see things in our culture that are flat out wrong and we don't say anything, then we're complicit with evil, and we can't be that. Yeah, totally. What is your encouragement to a pastor who's maybe listening to this? Maybe they live in a liberal city, but maybe they don't.

Starting point is 00:41:35 And they've realized, okay, I think I've maybe missed it. And they just feel that conviction from the Holy Spirit to be more clear. What should they do? First of all pastors, I just do. And I think what you said is right. I think a majority of pastors really want to do a good job. I think a majority pastors really love their flock. I think they have to take a lot of grief, too.

Starting point is 00:41:52 Sometimes it's from their elders. And sometimes it's from people in the kids. congregation that have been longstanding members or big tithers and givers and that's what pays them and here's what I would say trust the authority of God's word and don't apologize for that stand firm on the truth keep preaching if God takes people out of your church he'll bring three to five new people in for everyone he takes out that's what he does and at the end of your life and I tell I tell our congregation this all the time I'm not scared of preaching the word as far as what people are going to say about me I'm very intimidated because I know I give an account for every word I

Starting point is 00:42:22 say. And I'm much more fearful of the Lord. And I think what we've lost in our culture is the fear of the Lord. And as Christians, we've lost the fear of the Lord. We're like, well, I'm a Christian so I can sin and God will forgive me. And yes, God will forgive you, but that's not the fear of the Lord. The fear of the Lord is why would I want to sin? I want to honor him. And so to all the pastors out there, I would say, you know your calling. You know why God called you. Open the word of God, preach it, teach your people to pray and watch what he does. Can I ask you, what is the hardest about being a pastor and dovetail that with the question like what is the biggest thing that you hope people pray for you and pray for their own pastors? I think the weight, the weight of what it means

Starting point is 00:43:05 to be a pastor. I mean, you're responsible for souls. So if you have, I mean, we've been every church size. We started at 12 and now we're over 5,000. I mean, so you're, but you're responsible for each one of those people, regardless of what your role is. And your job is to spiritually nourish them in such a way that they hear the truth. So my wife can tell you every Saturday at her house, it's chaos. I feel the weight before I go into preach. Sunday morning I preach. I wake up on Monday morning and I'm defeated, discouraged, whatever. And I've learned over the years to rest in my identity and all that stuff. So I don't feel like quitting every Monday or anything like that. But I think the way people can pray for me is that I would be faith. I ask people this all the time because people will say stuff like

Starting point is 00:43:42 this. And they mean well, like, hey, we're just praying that you stay humble. You know, I hope you stay humble, to which I always want to say, I hope you stay humble too. But I think what they're saying is we've seen pastors fall and we have. I mean, good friends of mine have fallen. And I think what they're saying is we don't want to see that. And so what I tell people all the time, the best way you can pray for me is to pray that my relationship with Jesus stays strong, that I'm spending time with Jesus, that I'm letting him change me and that you can ask me, hey, what are you hearing from God lately? How's God working in your life so that if I have a close relationship with Jesus, all the other things take care of themselves? Because I think one of

Starting point is 00:44:18 dangers in being a pastor is, well, I'm doing ministry. I mean, I'm the pastor. And so you can lose Bible study reading. You can lose prayer time. Because I'm doing ministry. I'm meeting with people. And the most important thing you can do is prayer in the ministry of the word. So staying close to God in prayer, staying close to God in the Word and letting him continue to change you. So if anybody prays anything for me, it's a pray that Pastor Jeff stays really, really close to Jesus so that Jesus can tell him what he needs to do. Because there's nobody like can change just like Jesus, right? And so I think that's the prayer for all people, honestly, but especially for pastors, is pray that they walk with Jesus is so close that they have the ear of Jesus. They can hear what Jesus is saying through his word and through conversations where they know how to walk in obedience and continue to do that.

Starting point is 00:45:04 Totally. Pastors and all Christians can feel really demoralized, especially living in a particularly godless place. What are some ways, even small ways, that you have seen. light triumph over darkness through your church, through God's Word, in the community where you live. Yeah. Well, I think courage begets courage. And so, you know, and I think it was 2021 or 22, I think it was 2021, that we decided, okay, we're just going to have Easter outside. And so we rented a place at Band Amir Speedway, which was in Colorado at the time. And, you know, we opened our doors at 10,000 people. We did it the next year, at 12,000 people come. And we just shared the gospel. We've seen hundreds of

Starting point is 00:45:47 people come to Christ. And what I would say is when we first moved to Denver and somebody like Chris Tomlin would come to town or some big artist and I would go see a show, I would say, Peoria, Illinois has more Christians than this. Like, it's just not a thing or Faith Day at the Rockies. It's just not a thing. I've watched the spiritual temperature of Christians rise over the last 15 years. I've seen more people becoming more sold out to Jesus over the last 15 years. And much like, Elijah when he was complaining to the Lord like, I'm the only one. Everybody else has bowed. And God's like, no, there's not.

Starting point is 00:46:21 There's 7,000 over here that haven't bowed. There's more than you think. And so I think even in Colorado, I have great hope for Colorado. I have great hope. That's why I'm there. If I tell our church all the time, don't move to a red state. God called you here. You know, don't go where it's comfortable.

Starting point is 00:46:35 Stay in the fight. And I look, and I see it on all fronts. I think there are people that are feeling called by God to step up. My friend Victor Marx has run up for governor in the state of Colorado. Colorado is a born-again, spirit-filled man that only wants to run to be top cover for the state so a lot of these bad policies don't get put in place. I see people rising. I see people standing up. I see light coming through and I see more and more people being unapologetic for their relationship with Christ. I love them. Praise God. Last sponsor for the day is Concerned Women for

Starting point is 00:47:11 America. Did you know that over 80% of young women voted to install a radical Islamic socialist in New York City, Zoran Mom Dani, over 80% of women. We got a lot of work to do. As you know, that's part of why the show exists. That's certainly why concerned women for America exist. It is a coalition that's been around for decades that is helping moms, that is helping women in all different life stages to engage in politics and advocate for the issues that matter to us most. The sanctity of life, parental rights in education. We stand against the sexualization of kids through library books and the different kinds of curriculum that they're learning. We are all for child protection.

Starting point is 00:47:52 And we are against Concerned Women for America is also against all of the tenets of socialism. So they're trying to educate women, educate girls in what is good and right and true. And if you want to join them in that endeavor, go to concernedwomen.org slash alley. If you donate $20 or more, you'll get a copy of their booklet on socialism, what it is and it's dangerous. concernedwomen.org slash alley. I got to meet your daughter when I was in Denver just a few weeks ago speaking to your church, which was such an amazing day. They loved having you.

Starting point is 00:48:30 Yes. Well, I loved being there. Can you give some encouragement to parents who are like, you know what? I love my kids, but I'm looking at this future generation. And I'm worried. I'm worried about the state of our country. I'm worried about their spiritual state. What would you tell those parents?

Starting point is 00:48:46 Yeah. My wife and I talk about this all the time. We were marriage experts before we got married and we were parent experts before we had kids. What we've learned is that prayer is primary for both. And I don't just throw that out there and say, oh, just pray. I mean, pray intentionally for each child. Pray intentionally for their gifts. And then speak words of life over them because it's pretty easy to be, you know, someone that looks at all the problems and calls out all the problems.

Starting point is 00:49:11 Anybody can call out the problems. But to look and say, but God created you in the midst of all that you're going to make a difference in this world. We believe in you. We love you. We believe Jesus is doing something in you. And so as your kids learn to hear the voice of the Lord and as they hear you encouraging them and praying for them and loving them, we just trust that God's going to do the work. So any good things that have come out of our kids, we love all three of our kids.

Starting point is 00:49:31 We think God's doing great things in them. It's really not us. I'm not going to write a parenting book on Here's the Five Steps to Have a Great Kid because I don't even know what those are other than be present, love them, encourage them, pray for them, believe God's best for them and tell them they're a difference maker. They're to be salt and light in a world. So when you see these evils and when you see these things, hey, that's why God created you because you're going to make a difference. And darkness doesn't overcome light. Light always overcomes darkness. What good things do you see in Gen Z and even, I think it's Gen Alpha

Starting point is 00:50:05 after that that give you hope that, okay, God's doing something. Yeah. So I started off as a youth pastor. And here about a year ago, I said, I'm getting back involved with our students because I still feel like I have an anointing with high school students. And so what I'm seeing with students is they have a passion and they're very missional. I don't see kids growing up saying, what's my job going to be and how much money am I going to make and all this stuff? They tend to be asking the question, how can my life make a difference? And I love that. And what we're seeing in Gen Z, you're seeing more young people go back to church, especially young men, going back to church, wanting to be part of, you know, a life-giving church that preaches the word where truth is known.

Starting point is 00:50:43 So I see incredible hope. I mean, we're seeing glimpses of revival. We're seeing stories of, you know, even colleges like a year ago, the whole Ohio State Buckeye team was like having revivals on the campus. And I was able to do, I did chapel for the New England Patriots two weeks ago, which is why everybody in Denver was blaming me for the loss. But got to meet a couple of those guys that had been part of that team. I mean, there's a genuine love for the love. Lord in that generation. And I'm seeing it change. And so I want to be a part of that too. We talk about

Starting point is 00:51:14 passing the baton all the time. I'm 55 now. It's like I'm not getting any younger. So the more we can raise up that generation, because there's a lot of leaders that want to make a difference. And the questions that they're asking are the right questions. So we have a lot of young guys in our church. They want to go on. They want to be pastors. They want to be evangelists. They want to go do the work of the Lord. And they're doing it right now. And they're celebrating what God's doing. So I'm super excited about the next generation. That's so exciting. Can you give us just one last bit of encouragement or whatever final message you want to give mostly women and moms who are listening to this? We do have a wide array of people. But women and moms especially, they feel very anxious right now for a lot of different reasons. They might need some shepherding of their hearts right now and just a little bit of edification from a pastor. Absolutely. Well, I love moms and young women. I love my wife. and I've watched all that she's done over the years to love kids.

Starting point is 00:52:09 And I think moms just have a different relationship with their kids than dads do. They just do. And my encouragement would be it's easy. I think it's easy for women to listen to all the noise that's out there. And it's pretty easy to get a lot of news really quickly and then, you know, ruminate just on how bad. Look at how bad. Look at how bad this is. Look at how bad this is.

Starting point is 00:52:29 It wasn't like this 20 years ago. It wasn't like this when I was a kid. Wow, it's going from bad to worse. Here's what I would say. Jesus Christ is still Lord overall. He's still on the throne. Spend more time seeking his face. Because what I find is even when I start ruminating on those things and saying,

Starting point is 00:52:43 oh my goodness, look at us. This is so bad. We can't turn back. When I spend time at the foot of Jesus, I hear him say, I'm still in control. Nothing's spinning out. I'm not nervous. I'm not biting my fingernails. You don't need to be nervous either.

Starting point is 00:52:56 Just be my voice piece. And guess what? I'm coming back to make this right. Until I do, I'll empower you to make a difference. So keep making a difference. So moms, wives, you're making a huge difference in the life and community of your kids and your husband. And if you're working outside the home, that's great. So continue just to trust the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.

Starting point is 00:53:16 Amen. And if someone's in the Denver area and they're like, hey, I'm looking for a church. Where can they find more information? Yeah, go to brave.org. Brave.org. Very easy to remember. That's our website. Maybe you want to wait two weeks so that you can see the updated website.

Starting point is 00:53:31 But at the end of the day, yeah, go there. we'd love to have you visit if you're out in the Denver area. Awesome. Pastor Jeff, thank you so much. Hey, thanks for having me. It's been great.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1317 | This Pastor's Phone Call Shook His Progressive Governor | Jeff Schwarzentraub

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