Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 132 | Predestination

Episode Date: July 1, 2019

Does God choose us as believers? What about free will?

Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Hope everyone's having an awesome day and week and life so far. We're going to talk about a hefty subject today. Might make some of you happy, might make some of you sad, might make some of you mad, might clarify some things, might confuse some of you. That's typically what this topic does because we are going to talk about predestination. You know, every Christian's favorite discussion topic. Not really. So we're going to talk about what predestination is.

We're going to ask the question, is it biblical? Is it unbiblical? And depending on our answer to that, we'll talk about the implications. So first, let's say what it is. It is basically the idea that God predestined certain people to be saved by Jesus and some people to be unsaved and go to hell. That is the process that people who believe in predestination call election. Those who are chosen through election are called the elect, the people who will spend eternity with God, also known as God's chosen ones. Wayne Grudham, who wrote systematic theology, described it this way. Election is an act of God before creation in which he chooses some people to be saved, not on account of any foreseen merit in them, but only because of his sovereign good pleasure. So next question is, is it biblical? So that's what we're about to answer. We're going to look at both sides of this, because there's a lot of ground to cover, and there's a lot of Christians who fall on either side of this discussion. We're not going to cover all of it because this is a really big topic that would take days, but I will do my best using scripture to explain what I can. So if you are like me,

when you first heard about predestination, I think I first heard and learned about predestination in like sixth grade, you probably asked questions like this. If the Bible does support predestination and like if this is really biblical, how is that fair? How is that fair? Wouldn't that mean that God is essentially sending people to hell? Why would he create people just to send them to hell, I thought he was good. Doesn't John 316 say that he loves the world so that he sent his only son to die for whoever believes in him, that whoever believes in him would not perish but have eternal life? If predestination is real, what is the point of evangelism? And does that mean free will? Is it real at all? It's just a figment of my imagination. How can I be held responsible for the

things that I do if there's not free will? What kind of cruel God is that? So those are the questions that you might ask if you are thinking, okay, if predestination is biblical, then how, how am I supposed to square that with a good and loving God? And then you also have the other side of it. If you say, okay, well, if predestination is not biblical, if it's not real, then you have some questions to answer too. If predestination is not real, then is God really all powerful and all knowing? Can we choose to do something that is outside of the sovereign will of God if he is all powerful and all-knowing. What does it look like for an all-knowing, all-powerful God to not ordain who ends up where? Is it possible for God to not ordain anything? And what do we do with the chapters like Ephesians 1 and

like Romans 9 that we'll get into in a minute that seem to point to the fact that God does predestine us to heaven and how that God does choose people, that there is an elect? Do we just throw those out if predestination is a biblical? So on both sides, you have some questions to ask. So these are the kinds of questions that you might have and that I have had as I've wrestled for this. For many years, this is probably the first deep theological question that I ever thought about. So I have been thinking about this for a really long time. I would say, like, I don't know, if I first started thinking about it when I was 12, maybe like on and off for about 15 years.

I mean, it's one of those questions that we could really talk about for the rest of our lives. So first, let us lay the groundwork like we always do. we believe on this show, or we know on this show that the word of God is inerrant. It's efficient for instruction and reproof. If we disagree with the Bible, we are wrong, not God. If we find that we think that there are contradictions in the Bible, we do not throw out one verse in favor of the other. We go deeper into scripture to find some kind of reconciliation, deeper into God's truth to find the solution to that. We study the context. We ask, what does this mean? And we figure out where we are failing to understand. We do not rely on feelings. We rely on truth. And if there is

something that we cannot figure out, we defer to God's magnificence and to his wonder and to his greatness rather than to him being some kind of author of confusion because we know from the Bible that he is not. So let us see what the Bible has to say about this. Let's see. Let's see what the Bible has to say about this. let us look at what the Bible says that seems to be in favor of predestination, and then we'll look at what the Bible says that seems to be against the idea of predestination, and then we will aim to reconcile the two with a proper theological answer. So the passages that are used in favor of this idea of predestination, that it is God who ordains where we end up when we die rather than exclusively our own choices. So Acts 1348, as many as were ordained to eternal.

life believed. Romans 829 through 31. For those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son in order that he might be the first born among many brothers. And those whom he predestined, he also called. In those whom he called, he also justified. And those whom he justified, he also glorified. The Greek word for predestine is prurizo. Prorezo. I don't know how to pronounce that. It's P-R-O-O-R-I-Z-O, which means ordained or decided ahead of time or determined beforehand. Romans 833, who shall bring any charge against God's elect. It is God who justifies. It goes on to say who is to condemn. Ephesians 1.5. In love, he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of his will.

Ephesians 1.11 through 12. In him, we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. And in speaking of the coming tribulation, Jesus says in Matthew 2422, and if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved, but for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short. Colossians 312 put on then as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility. First, Thessalonians 1.4, for we know brothers loved by God that he has chosen you. There are more that we won't read all of. 1 Timothy 521, 2 Timothy 2 10, Titus 1 1 1 1 through

2 and 2 9, 2nd Peter 1 10. All speak of the elect election or chosen ones, this process of God predestining believers. So now all of our questions erupts. Maybe some of you for the first time are realizing, wow, there seems to be some kind of biblical foundation for this thing. the question that typically erupts first is how is this fair? Why would God do this? Again, how, how, what, why, why would he create people he knows will end up in hell? And it seems like the Romans had similar questions that Paul answers in Romans 9, which is really the quintessential passage that is used by those who believe in predestination. Romans 9 15 through 24, for he says to Moses, that's God, for God says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, for this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. If you remember Pharaoh in relation to the Israelites,

his heart was hardened. God hardened Pharaoh's heart. And it says that I might show my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. So then, Paul says, God through Paul says, so then he has mercy on whomever he wills and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? And Paul answers that by saying, but who are you, oh man, to answer back to God? Well, what is molded say to its molder? Why have you made me like this? Has the potter no right over the clay to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction in order to

make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he has called not from the Jews only, but only from the Gentile? So here he is talking about Israel, but it seems to apply to the concept of salvation in general that he makes vessels of wrath and vessels of glory. He prepares them beforehand for according to his own will and for his own glory. Now, we always say on this podcast, too, that we look at things in light of all of scripture. So even though from these verses, it seems like, okay, the concept of predestination is pretty clear in the Bible. It's pretty inescapable. We need to look at the verses that seem, that seem to contradict it, that seem to say, no, this is, this is on you. God gives you an offer,

you accept her, you rejected. And if you reject it, and if you rejects, it, you're just out. That's the other position. And there are verses that appear to back that up. So we've already looked at John 316, for God so left the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Acts 221. And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. John 10.9, I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go and will go in and out and find pasture. Romans 10 9 through 10, because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. James 4-8, draw near to God

and he will draw near to you. Second Thessalonians 2, 9 through 11. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. So what do we make of all of this? So on the one hand, we have verses that say God predestined all who are saved, all who are going to heaven, which would mean logically that he also predestined those who are not going to be saved, who are not going to heaven. On the other hand, it seems like we have a really authentic choice. We are called throughout the New Testament to repent, to be baptized, to believe, to be saved. Paul obviously believes in evangelism.

He asks in Romans how people are going to hear the good news if they're not told the good news. And the Bible makes clear that there is an alternative. to being saved, which, as Jesus says many times in the Gospels in Matthew and Mark and Luke, he talks about hell. That is the alternative. He compares hell to both darkness and burning and sorrow and anguish in the Gospels. Jesus comes to share the good news. He charges us to share the good news, to make disciples. So how can all of that be relevant or why is all of that necessary if it really just is God's sovereign choice? So as we've already established, we're not going to you throw out a set of passages in favor of another.

We're just not going to do that. I don't think that's how the Bible is supposed to be read or interpreted. We are going to go deeper into scripture and figure out the truth of this because here's where we stand. Here's just the undeniable truth. Let us just stand in what seems like, if you're approaching this for the first time, what seems like a paradox. According to God's word, God ordains people.

He predestines them. He calls them the elect. He chooses them. We also suffer real consequences for our actions. We do seem to have a choice. There does seem to be an imperative in a directive, not just in accepting Christ, but in everything that we do. There are commands we are to follow.

There is a way of life that we are told to abide by. If we had no choice, it would seem like these would be useless. Both of these ideas, though, are found in scripture. So both of them are true. So what do we say? How do we reconcile these things? So I think part of the answer is found in this phrase. by grace, by grace through faith.

I want to go first to Ephesians 2, 8 through 10, which says, for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing. It is the gift of God, not a result of work, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Then there's Romans 323 through 25, for all have sin and fell short of the glory of God and are justified by His grace.

as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood to be received by faith. Paul in Galatians 1.15 through 16. But when he who had set me apart before I was born and who called me by his grace was pleased to reveal his son to me in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone. Titus 3, 4, through 7. Then when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us through, poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior so that being justified by His grace, we might become

heirs according to the hope of eternal life. So what do we, what do we read in these passages? That it is by grace that we are saved, that it is not our own doing, that it is by grace. by definition, something that we did not earn or come up with on our own, that we did not muster, that gives us faith to accept the Son of God. And so, yes, we do, according to Scripture, make a choice in faith to call upon the name of the Lord and to be saved. But that faith was given to us by the grace of God, so we can't even take credit for that. John 644, Jesus says, no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. So even our coming, to the Lord is the result of God drawing us to himself. And I realize that that might not seem to

solve all of our so-called issue. So let's hang on for just a second. Let's think about what we know from Scripture about the nature of God. He is all-powerful. He is all-knowing. That means that nothing. If he is all-powerful and all-knowing as Scripture says, not a single thing happens outside of his knowledge. Not a single thing happens that escapes his grasp. Not not, not Not one thing on earth happens that is not within his sovereign will. Jesus says in Matthew 1029 that not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from the father. Think about how insignificant the falling of a sparrow is.

A random sparrow in the forest or in a field falls. And yet that's not even outside of God's well. Two sparrows, Jesus says, are sold for a penny. And even God pays attention to them. even the flight path, the ups and downs, the life and the death of a sparrow all falls within the will of God. So don't you think that something a lot more significant like salvation would also fall within the sovereign will of God? And also remember about the nature of God that he is not limited by time and space. He is not moving forward linearly as we are.

He does not age. He does not change. He is an eternal being. That means he is just as present right now as he was or as he is. when the world was created. So according to his own nature, predestining things is really the only option. That means that predestine believer, something is significant as salvation is really the only option.

It all happens within his sovereign will. Predestine everything is the only option if we are to believe that he is all powerful and all knowing that not even a sparrow falls from the sky without his will being involved in that. we know that he hates sin. We know that he grieves for the brokenhearted and the oppressed. We know that he loathes evil and promises retribution for evildoers, but not a thing that's done is outside of his control.

If something could happen outside of his control, he would no longer be all powerful or all-knowing. Now, a lot of you are thinking, well, what of Satan? Satan has power, doesn't he? And that's true. The Bible calls Satan in Ephesians 2, the print of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work.

and the sons of disobedience, aka all unbelievers. So God has allowed Satan to have some power, but even that allowance necessitates God's will. God could stop anything if he wanted to. The relevance of this to our conversation is that if God is all knowing and if God is all powerful, as the Bible, his own word, says that he is, then it is not at all outside the realm of possibility

that he foreknows and predestance believers from the beginning of time, that he would, by grace, offer us the gift of faith to accept and to turn to him. Remember, Galatians 1.15, Paul says, but when he, who had set me apart before I was born and who called me by his grace. Remember the scripture that we talked about in the beginning, Romans 829, for those whom he foreknew, he also predestined. Ephesians 1.5 in love, he predestined us for adoption. Ephesians 1 11 through 12. In him we have obtained inheritance having been predestined. First, Thessalonians 1 4, 4 we know brothers loved by God that he has chosen you.

Then of course, Ephesians 2 that we just read, by grace you have been saved through faith. This is not your own doing so that no one can boast. The chapter even says that God prepared the good works that we do beforehand. And Romans 5.8 says that while we were still sinners Christ died for us. So it would seem that the idea that God predestined believers is really theologically inescapable, not easily comprehensible, but inescapable. If we look at the verses we listed that seem to maybe our minds contradict these verses, verses about calling upon the name of the Lord, versus saying that God wants everyone to be saved,

versus saying to draw near to God. It's obvious that God found a reason to have people write things down through his spirit as directives. He knew that we needed commands, that we needed guidance. He tells us to do things. So again, how is that possible if he also ordains everything including salvation? And again, why would God have created human beings to go to hell? And that is a question that is, let's just admit, exceedingly difficult to answer in human terms, beyond a theological term called

concurrence. This idea that what happens or that there are things that happen that are simultaneously inactive humans and simultaneously in act of God, a God who is ultimately over all of it, whether he allows things to happen or like he did with Job and Job being tempted as he did in the death of Jesus, not desiring evil to occur, but allowing it to happen to accomplish his purpose or whether he actually causes it to happen, like hardening Pharaoh's heart. Either way, he is still in control of all of it. He could stop anything that he wanted to. Therefore, it is all technically logically ordained. He is in charge because he is an all-powerful in all-knowing being at all times.

And indeed, in many ways, this is a mystery. Let's go back to Romans 9 because Paul acknowledges all of the questions that we have. It seems like the Romans had a lot of the same questions that we do. Paul says, you will say to me them, why does God still find fault? Who can resist his will? That's a great question. How can he still find fault in someone if his grace is truly irresistible? if those who are Christians were called to be Christians and who were chosen as believers, how can he still find fault in those who he did not choose? And this is Paul's answer. And we know that this is God speaking through Paul.

But who are you, oh man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder? Why have you made me like this? Has the potter no right over its clay to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God desiring to show his wrath and to make? known his power has endured with much patience, vessels of wrath prepared for destruction in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory.

So this is our answer. For why he does thinks this way, for why concurrently it is a full act of him for which he can take complete and total credit and why also at the same time, he tells us that there is a choice to accept or reject to draw near or to turn away. These two things that seem like a paradox are happening at the extent. exact same time, according to the word, and the reason why he does this, why it's still his sovereign will overall, but why he still tells us to do things and to repent, it's for his glory. That's what the Bible says. It is for his glory. By grace through faith, for his glory. This glorifies him.

He gets to take full credit for our redemption. He takes full credit for our salvation. It was not us. He chooses us. So we have nothing to boast in. Paul understands that this is mysterious. And that is why in Romans 1133, he says, oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God, how unsearchable his judgments and his paths beyond tracing out. That is where we kind of conclude for predestination. His paths are beyond tracing out. We take this to the limits of our finite minds and then we erupt into praise in the same way that Paul does, not into complaints of this isn't fair, but into praise how untraceable are his paths, how rich is his wisdom and knowledge. So beyond our comprehension, but he tells us it's for his own glory.

And so we live in this kind of divine tension that our limited minds, that we can't really fully understand what this means, but we trust because the Bible is so clear that it is so. our actions matter, that God is completely sovereign over them and everything that happens, including salvation. So here's one question. Why evangelize? If people are chosen, why share the gospel? I always say this word wrong. Legioneer. Legionaire is a ministry by R.C. Sproul. And I found that they answered this question that I have had for a while, why evangelize if God truly predestined believers? I thought that Legioneer had a really good explanation of this. And so I'm going to read how they answer it. It's what I would have said, but they answer it in a lot more concise and better way.

It says, we evangelize because our creator commands us to evangelize. But that is not the only reason we engage in evangelism and world missions. The doctrine of predestination means that the Lord does not ordain the end, salvation, without also ordaining the means to that end, the way in which people will receive salvation. God's plan is comprehensive. He works out all things according to the counsel of his will, as Ephesians 111 says, and the counsel of his will has determined that he will use his people to reach the lost and call them into his kingdom. He has decided that in the ordinary course of events, people will be saved through the explanation of the gospel on the part of Christian. So he predestined salvation. He also predestined

the means by which people will be saved, and he commands us to evangelize. So that is why we evangelize because it's a command. And again, it goes back to his own glory. So how should we we feel about all of this? Because I know there are still people who say, that's not fair. That's not what love really is. We've already said that's for his own glory. But here's the reality is that this is more gracious than we could ever comprehend. God's plan of election is more merciful than we could ever comprehend. Even though it seems heartless to us, it is beyond loving. Because you know why? Because we all stand condemned. Without Christ, we are dead in our sin. God didn't have to save anyone. God didn't have to choose any of us. God did not have to extend his grace and mercy to

any of us, but he chose to. He chose to send his son to die for us, and he chose some of us to be saved in him. That is grace. He didn't have to do that. He didn't have to have a plan of redemption. He could have left us dead and sin. He could have separated us forever from him. He could have condemned us all to hell, and he would have been completely righteous to do so because we have no holy standing on own. We have no justification on our own, but he chose to justify some. And it's all for his glory. That would be fair. That would be fair if God gave us what we deserved. But instead of that, he gives the elect what we do not deserve through Jesus Christ. And that should give us confidence. You don't need to worry. Well, what if I'm not chosen? What if that's, what if I just am outside

the election of God? No, it should give you confidence. If you believe, that Jesus Christ is Lord and you endure through grace by faith until the end, you don't have to worry about that. It doesn't come from you. That's the beautiful thing about election is that it has nothing to do with our will. We didn't do any of it. By faith that we were given by grace, we accepted Christ, but we don't even get to take credit for any of that.

The Bible says so that no one can boast. That should give us confidence. And because we have that confidence, we can live out the good works that God prepared beforehand. Ephesians 2 said that we would walk in them. And part of that is sharing the gospel. And because of election, we also have a guarantee that some will be saved because they were chosen to be saved. And so our response to all of this is thank you, God. Thank you so much for your mysterious, crazy, gracious plan of redemption that you decided to choose us,

not because of any merit, not because of any deservedness, not because of anything. we've done not because of our ability to clean ourselves off, but because you're good. Because in accordance to your perfect will, you decided that some of us should be saved and reconciled to you through Jesus Christ. That's amazing. You didn't have to do that, but you did. And so, like I said in the past, my fallback, if I'm trying to understand something theologically, my question that I ask myself is what makes God bigger and makes me smaller?

What gives God more glory and me less glory? and predestination also ends with that that I can't boast on anything. It's based on that, that this gives God the most glory because he can take all the credit for my salvation, all of it. And so that's the best explanation that I can give. Like I said, there's a lot of people that could go even in more depth into this. There's a lot of different places in scripture that we could look. there's so much that we could talk about.

There's so much literature on this. There are so many brilliant theologians. I'm not a brilliant theologian. All I do is read my Bible and look for answers and ask people who are much smarter than me and ask for wisdom from God and wisdom from the Holy Spirit. And I search the scriptures instead of falling back on my own feelings. Because if I did fall back on my own feelings, I probably wouldn't have ended in the place of believing that God predestined believers because feelings don't get me there.

but the truth of God does and the Holy Spirit moves us to worship because of that. So thank God. Thank God for His grace and all of that. So I'm sure that I will be getting questions from you guys. Maybe not. But I'm curious to hear your thoughts. So feel free to email me, Allie at the conservative millennial blog.com. Make sure to follow me on social media.

Also hope that you guys are enjoying this series. If you have recommendations or ideas for after I get back from maternity leave, feel free to email me and to message me. Like I said, I'm probably not going to be responding right away. Kind of have a lot going on right now. But I always love hearing from you guys. And as always, if I've missed something in scripture, if I've missed something theologically, then of course I want to hear your feedback.

I want to hear your ideas. But always when you come back and you have a question or you have an argument, If you have an argument against something that I say about Scripture, please come with Scripture because if that's not the authority that we're both appealing to, if we're appealing to some random philosopher, if we're appealing to our feelings, then that's not really a worthy conversation in my eyes. I want us to go back to the foundations of Scripture because it's the only inerrant source of wisdom that we have.

And so that's the way that we can have a productive dialogue about these, you know, crazy and complex theological things that I truly love to discuss. So anyway, thank you guys so much for listening and I will see you all soon.