Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1330 | Matt Walsh on Iryna Zarutska’s Case, the Death Penalty & Civil War Myths | Matt Walsh

Starting point is 00:00:00 The killer of Irina Zerutska has been found incompetent to stand trial. That means he'll go to some mental health facility instead of where he belongs in prison. What does this say about our justice system? How in the world did we get here? Well, we have someone here today, Matt Walsh, who says that he has been radicalized on the issue of justice. He's going to talk us through this, why this is happening, what we need to do about it, what the solutions are. We'll also be having a fascinating conversation about his new. real history series. Today we're talking about the Civil War. So buckle up, get ready to be offended

Starting point is 00:00:36 by everything that said, but the facts actually matter. The truth matters and what we learn from truth really matters. This episode is brought to by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use Code Alley at checkout. That's good ranchers.com. Code Alley. Matt, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. Okay, before we talk about your new series, which I'm super fascinated by, I want to talk about some of the things that you said lately about criminal justice, Irina Zerutska. It was found that her killer was found incompetent to stand trial, not even totally sure what that means or why.

Starting point is 00:01:18 But can you just give us your general reaction to that and what you think needs to change? Yeah. So they're saying his incompetent to stand trial. Now, one of the caveats there is fortunately he also has federal charges and he hasn't been found incompetent there. So he's not, so he still is facing that. And I was watching a news report today, a local news report, and somebody who was trying to explain this and sort of defend it was saying that, hey, just because he was finally competent to stand trial, it doesn't mean that he's going to be released. He's going to go to a mental health facility, quote unquote. And he could, I think the phrasing in the report was, he could very possibly be there forever. But of course, what's implied there is that he could also possibly be released. And that has happened many times. I mean, there have been infamous cases, including recent cases where people who were guilty of heinous. violent crimes, murder, were found incompetent, ended up being released, back out into the public.

Starting point is 00:02:12 So that could also happen, especially without the federal charges. The whole thing is completely insane. I mean, as I said on X earlier today, I'm totally radicalized on the issue of criminal justice at this point. By most people's standards, I've always been pretty radical on it, at least in recent years. But at this point, I'm completely radicalized on it. And I think, and to begin with, the concept of being incompetent to stand trial makes no sense. That should not be a thing. That shouldn't be a category.

Starting point is 00:02:50 Because the way that I look at it is you did a heinous thing. In this case, you murdered an innocent woman, knifed her in the throat on the train, either you knew exactly what you were doing, and he did it anyway, and that makes you evil beyond measure, or it's true that you really don't understand that you're not allowed to do that, in which case, that's all the more reason, as far as I'm concerned, why you are not fit for human society. But either way, you're not fit for human society. Either you aren't fit because you do these things on purpose or you aren't fit because you do them and you don't know you're not, so you're not supposed to do them.

Starting point is 00:03:32 Either way, this is not someone who should be a member of society anymore. They should be removed from society permanently. And that's what executions are for. And the problem here, Allie, is that we are, we are, and for decades we have medicalized the human condition broadly. This is what the psychiatric industry has done. And now, because, you know, basically academic psychiatrists and communists, we're all really the same thing, have taken over criminal justice and have for decades, at least since

Starting point is 00:04:02 the mid-20th century. All human evil is now just categorized as a medical problem, which is why in that report I was talking about, the local news report, they were saying, well, we'll put him in a mental health facility and hopefully he gets better. Gets better. I mean, that's what you said, what are you going to send him a get well soon card? He murdered someone. Gets better is what we say if you have, if you get the flu or if you're, you know, diagnosed with cancer or something, we hope you get better. This is evil. This is not something that happened to him. It's something that he did. And because we've so medicalized all of these things, we look at now and the justice system looks at the most evil people as victims of some sort of condition, which means

Starting point is 00:04:45 that all we can do is offer them treatment. What we can't do is actually punish them. And that's just totally absurd and wrong. Yeah. And it's even worse than that because it's, certain people who do evil things suffer from some kind of condition where they were victimized by their own bad mental health or the system or racism, because it's certainly not true across the board. If you are a white male who commits a crime, it just seems that we see that kind of story much less often. But if you're a part of some kind of victim group, if you're a racial minority, I just saw this report by Redux that this person who murdered a baby in 2002 and identifies as a woman has been released 30 years early from jail because the ACLU advocated for him to be released from prison.

Starting point is 00:05:30 So if you're part of a victim group, you get advocacy from the public, from the media, from some kind of mob pressure, from these groups like, you know, the Innocence Project or the ACLU, and you are much more likely to be seen as absolved of your crimes or mentally unstable or something like that. So it's not just that like progressive ideology has medicalized the existence of evil and human nature, they've just done it for certain groups of people, which is even worse in my estimation. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's a major factor as well. It all comes back to the same thing, which is someone does something horrible. And then they're, you know, rather than trying to prove they

Starting point is 00:06:10 didn't do it and get off the charges that way, they just have to prove that they're a victim. And the thing is, yeah, if you're a black male or any, if you're anything but a white male, then you can claim victim status just based on that alone. and then you add in the supposed mental health challenges and quote unquote, then you get even greater victim status. But even white male criminals can try to play this game, and they do, by saying, no, I am also a victim because I have this mental health challenge or I'm autistic or something.

Starting point is 00:06:41 I mean, there was a recent case. I mean, it's a case so horrible. I haven't even been able to click on it and read into it, but it was a I think it was a delivery driver that kidnapped and killed a young girl. Yes. And it's like one of those things. I see it pop up. I can't even look at it.

Starting point is 00:06:57 But as far as I know, that, and that was, I believe, a white male. Yep. And there's, he's also apparently going to try to claim some sort of mental deficiency. Right. I think the likelihood that it works in his case is less, but that's, that's what he's going to try. It shouldn't even be, you shouldn't be allowed to even try this. It doesn't matter. If you did this thing, and this case it's all, you know, we know he did it.

Starting point is 00:07:22 It's on video apparently. The same Irene Zerritska. It's on video. We know you did it. The whole conversation about, well, what was your mental state at the time? I don't care. Who cares? I don't care what you were feeling.

Starting point is 00:07:33 I don't care what you were thinking. I care what you did. That's all that matters. And if you did something this heinous, as I said, you act, by my estimation, I know, there are plenty of Christians in particular who would disagree with this. But by my estimation, you've lost the right to exist. Yeah. You've lost the right to live on Earth.

Starting point is 00:07:51 And because when it comes down to it, that is a conditional right at a certain point for adults, for adults. It's not conditional for children. You know, we've completely flipped this around where for babies, the right to live is conditional and it's conditioned on whether your mother wants you. And then so they could be killed. But then for adults, we say your right to live is totally unconditional. No matter what you do, you can do the worst things imaginable for a person to do. And you still somehow have this like right. to continue existing at the expense of society.

Starting point is 00:08:24 I mean, it's completely backwards. Yeah. Upside down. Okay, y'all, let me tell you about Hillsdale College. This is one of the rare universities out there that actually helps students learn how to think, learn the truth about American history, also help shape our moral worldview. It's so important what Hillsdale is doing. I remember the president of Hillsdale, Larry Arne spoke at Charlie's Memorial.

Starting point is 00:08:51 And I was just so touched and impressed by his speech. and I didn't know that Charlie had been so involved in Hillsdale and that he had taken a lot of their courses to learn about the Constitution and to learn about the history of our Republic. And if you ever watch his debates, like you can see how educated he was and how smart he was. A lot of that is because of Hillsdale. A lot of you ask me, you know, what's the best place for me to start to learn about argumentation and logic and rhetoric? I would say Hillsdale.

Starting point is 00:09:18 All of their online courses are absolutely free. They have a logic and rhetoric course. They have a course on C.S. Lewis, The Chronicles of Narnia, the rise and fall of the Roman Republic. So many different aspects of literature and history that will make you smarter and a better American and a better parent. If you go to Hillsdale.edu slash relatable, you can enroll in any of their online courses totally free. Hillsdale.edu slash relatable. You're so right. That awful story that you're talking about is a little girl. I don't know the guy's name, but her name was Athena Strand. And I'm sorry to like traumatize my audience, but this is really.

Starting point is 00:09:56 something that is going on. And as you said, he's trying to claim insanity or whatever. FedEx driver dropping off a Barbie at this little girl's home. She's in the front yard. He captures her. Now we have video like dash cam footage of this little girl like alert standing behind him as he is driving away. It's just awful, especially for us parents just imagining that. And then he just goes and brutally kills her. They have audio of this, which I will never listen to, that they are going to play before the jury. So I think hopefully that evidence will show. this was premeditated, deliberate, and all of that. But there's, I thought of another case. I won't go into the details. But in Texas, of a guy, I think his name was Robert Robertson. And we even had

Starting point is 00:10:36 Republicans rallying around him saying, oh, we've got to, we've got to save him from the death penalty. He brutally murdered his two-year-old daughter several years ago. But in the past few years, he's suddenly been diagnosed with autism. And because he was diagnosed with autism, I guess the brutal abuse and the torture and the murder of his two-year-old, it doesn't really matter anymore. Like, justice for victims don't really matter. What matters more is that we treat with kid gloves, these people who have brutalized innocent children. And people just don't realize it. This is my opinion, that the death penalty for people like the guy who killed Arina Zerutska and all of these child killers, like the death penalty is actually merciful. Because we're not calling for

Starting point is 00:11:19 them to be killed in the brutal way that they killed these children or, Irene Zerutska, we're actually just asking for a quick death. I think that's not only just, but it's actually a merciful form of justice. And I really don't understand Christians included who see that is, who see that is cruel. It's just totally backwards to me. Yeah, I totally agree. And by the way, we talk about, well, what if someone does something like this and they repent? And I think that unfortunately, that's extremely uncommon because usually when you've gotten to a point in your heart where your soul is that black and dark that you're capable of doing something like that.

Starting point is 00:11:56 I mean, it's possible. Wonders can be worked and people have repented. It's just like statistically unlikely. But the point is that if someone, it's like either they're an unrepentant murderer, in which case what else can we do with them but give them the ultimate form of punishment. But if they've repented, then guess what?

Starting point is 00:12:15 Part of repenting for doing a really bad thing is to accept the consequences of those actions, and even to desire them, even to, at least to accept them manfully and courageously, that's part of repenting, and that goes for any kind of sin. If you've committed a sin, no, what it is, but you're still trying to evade the just consequences of that sin, but you claim you've repented?

Starting point is 00:12:38 No, you have not. That's part of repenting. It's like if you committed murder, but you haven't been arrested for it, and you got away with it, and you did it 20 years ago or something, and you know, and you confide in someone who's a Christian, and say, well, I did this terrible thing, but I've repented of it. That person, if they're a good Christian, a knowledgeable person, they would say,

Starting point is 00:12:56 okay, it's good you've repented, but that means you need to go turn yourself in. And you need to go accept the consequences. If you're not willing to do that, it means you're not sorry. And that's what being sorry means. And so, you know, if someone has done the world, you killed it to you, you killed your own two-year-old daughter, I mean, it's the worst thing it's possible for a person to do. And if you've really done that and you're actually repented for it, then you should welcome that punishment because you know you deserve it.

Starting point is 00:13:24 And to try to get out of it is, I think, a sign of a lack of repentance. And for my theological perspective, too, God can save anyone at any time. And the idea of a sovereign God saying, shoot, I was going to save him next week. And y'all ruined my plans to do that. And y'all have just completely messed it all up. That's just not how a sovereign God works. God, if we want to say, you know what, trial, conviction, found guilty, someone preaches the gospel to him, gives him an hour to think it over repent, and then he, you know, dies by death penalty. I'm open to that. But how we have it right now that the death

Starting point is 00:14:04 penalty is used so arbitrarily, that it's used so sporadically, that's what makes it unjust. It's not the death penalty itself that it's unjust. It's the fact that someone can get three square meals given to them by the taxpayer for 35 years and then maybe get out of prison because they're transgender. Like that is the injustice of the death penalty. And you said that you've been radicalized about our criminal justice system. I agree. But sometimes I just feel powerless to do anything about it. And it really is. It's kind of depressing when you start to think about it. Yeah, it is. It is, I mean, it's very depressing. And that's one of the reasons why this problem is not fixed. I mean, one thing, it's a huge problem. And,

Starting point is 00:14:46 and there are a lot of different angles to it. But also, it's just really depressing to think about and talk about. And so I think people prefer not to. But if we're not going to think about it, that means a problem will certainly never be fixed. But it's a huge problem. This is something I would like, you know, I would like for at least to start with,

Starting point is 00:15:03 this could be step one, is for the death penalty to become a live, pardon a live issue again in America, for it to become a real issue that we at least talk about and debate, Because you go back to the 90s, I think, and you know, it was death penalty was, was almost every state had it. And it had like 80% approval. I mean, it was everybody almost, one of the few things that almost all Americans could agree on is that, of course, you have the death penalty. And then you go back farther than that, it was like basically 100%.

Starting point is 00:15:34 And now, you look at the situation now in 2026, and the death penalties almost never happens. I mean, many states, many states have banned it. Many other states technically have it, but never use it. And even the states that do have it and do use it, use it very, very, very sparingly. So you only get, you know, a few basically executions a year. And then if you look at the public, the opinion polls on it, it's, you know, now it's like 50% supported or maybe less than that. But I just think that's because we've just, we don't talk about it anymore.

Starting point is 00:16:06 We've just kind of like moved on. It's one of those issues where we're told by those in charge, oh, yeah, that's, we already settled that. We've moved past that. But when did we agree on that? I don't remember. I mean, the last time that we as a public were really talking about this issue and having a real debate about it and it was actually a part of political debate and maybe it'd be the kind of thing that would come up in a debate between candidates for an election. The last time that was the case was in the 90s. And back then, when people were really thinking about it, it was 80% approval. So I think it's something worth worth at least debating again. Yeah, absolutely. It's definitely Protestants and Catholics,

Starting point is 00:16:48 who I think have a lot of people just have it wrong on this, but you definitely have your work cut out for you when it comes to some of your fellow Catholics, when it comes to the death penalty, just because I think that a lot of at least recent Catholic teaching has talked about being against the death penalty, certainly in evangelicalism. There's like a womb to tomb movement, which says in order to be holistically pro-life, you have to be against the death penalty. You have to be for welfare. You have to be four open borders and things like that. So, you know, I call that toxic empathy, but it's like a real theological issue, too, within our faith communities that people have just been very duped by the progressive propaganda about it.

Starting point is 00:17:29 Yeah, I think that, and that's, you know, if you look at the polls, I'm, I don't know, Probably if the overall polls are 50%, kind of like a 50-50, if you looked at Catholics in America, would probably be around that. I'm not sure to look at the polls. But I think part of what's happening is that you mentioned pro-life. It's a lot, it's that. I mean, it's Catholics, at least observant Catholics are pro-life, by definition. They must be if they're observant and they care about their faith.

Starting point is 00:17:59 And I think for a lot of Catholics and Christians generally, you think, that well, pro-life, it means pro-life. It means you have to apply that across the board. And listen, I understand that because I've talked openly about the fact that if you go back six years or something, that was my position. I mean, there was a time when I was against the death penalty. I argued against it publicly.

Starting point is 00:18:18 And on this grounds that it was like, well, I'm say I'm pro-life. You know, I talk about the right to life. And so you've got to apply it. You've got to apply it across the board. And so I get that. It's like it, I understand that thought process. I used to have the same thought process. And I think at least for the Christians who feel that way,

Starting point is 00:18:38 it's a respectable view. It's not like stupid or evil or bad or anything from a moral perspective. But I think the problem is you just haven't thought enough about it. You haven't really thought this thing through. I know that I hadn't. And then when I really started thinking about it, that's when it became clear to me that because one of the things when we talk about the death penalty,

Starting point is 00:19:00 it's like, why should we have the death penalty? And very often the debate about whether or not to have it hinges on things like, is it a deterrent? It's like sort of the practical, the practical questions. Or could we save money with the death penalty? And then the people that are against it will say, well, actually, it costs more to execute people than it does to keep them alive. But that's only because of the way that we approach the death penalty in the first place, which was made more expensive than it ever needed to be. But what was, I think, clarifying for me is when I realized that, well, actually, there is a deterrent factor to it.

Starting point is 00:19:39 And yeah, it's expensive, but it doesn't need to be. It's just the way we've chosen to do it. And if it's not as much of a deterrent now, that's because of how we approach it. It's because even if you get convicted and given a death penalty, it's not going to actually happen for like 30 or 40 years. You might die of old age before it happens. And that really minimizes the deterrent factor. But all of that is almost to the side. The real reason is the simplest reason.

Starting point is 00:20:04 The real reason why you need the death penalty is because of justice. It is because it is just. It is because it is right. Justice means giving to someone what they're owed. It means giving to someone what they're due. Sort of like putting everything in their rightful place. That is justice. And if you go and kill a child, then what you are owed,

Starting point is 00:20:24 what is due to you properly is the ultimate. punishment that we can impose on a person, which of course is a death penalty. And I think when you think of it in those terms, at least for me, it becomes very clear that this is what this person did this thing. This is what they deserve. It's like can anyone look at someone who killed a child, the FedEx driver, for example, can you really look me in the eye and tell me that he does not deserve, that he does, that he is not owed, he has not due the ultimate punishment? I don't know how you can make that argument. Yeah, definitely. And the death penalty, is a deterrent for the person that you're executing, by the way.

Starting point is 00:21:00 Like, lowest recidivism rate ever is when you execute murderers. And as you said, we have no idea if it deters on a wide scale because we don't apply it evenly. And I just remind Christians, too, that it's God who first demands the death penalty before he even creates Israel. He says for murder, like, you're going to die. And it's not because he's cruel. It's actually because he says we are made in God's image. So it's because a person is so precious and so, special that killing them is so bad that the only just punishment for purposely killing an

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Starting point is 00:22:07 and effective products. They really work well, by the way. But also, you are making sure that you are supporting the lives of unborn children everywhere. Unfortunately, diaper companies in America today largely support Democrat politicians and plan parenthood. It seems counterintuitive, but it's true.

Starting point is 00:22:24 So you just want to make sure that you're supporting a diaper company that supports you and the causes that you believe in. Go to Everylife.com. When you use code Alley10, you get 10% off your first order today. That's Everylife.com code Alley 10. And so we are two of the only people that I see like prominent conservatives out there pushing for the death penalty. So I agree with you. We need to push it to at least be a debate, a topic of conversation, because it is a matter of justice. And for me, immigration and criminal justice, of course, along with abortion, are like the biggest issues, because they have to do with the safety and the security of my family, of my daughters and future generations.

Starting point is 00:23:08 And so more people need to care about it. Yeah, absolutely. And they have to do with, like I said, they have to do with justice. And I think that that is what on top of the fact that our children are not nearly as safe as they should be living in a society where these monsters and animals are released back into communities. But also, people are hungry for justice. And I think they look around and they see, you know, as you say, immigration is part of this. Like people can just flout our laws. It doesn't matter.

Starting point is 00:23:37 You can do what you want. And it's just, it's one of the most, you know, we have a need for food and water and shelter. But, and that's true. But as human beings, we have deeper needs than that. We have spiritual needs. Love, you know, that's a real need. And justice. Justice is a need.

Starting point is 00:23:55 You need that to be, to live and be happy and thrive and to have a civilized society. and I think that in our society today, we are greatly starved for justice. Yeah. And, you know, this would help that. Okay, I want to get to your series. Specifically, I want to talk about the installment on the Civil War. But before we do, I have to play this clip by Gavin Newsom's wife. You've been talking about her a little bit on X.

Starting point is 00:24:19 Really, everyone has. But this has to do with what we're talking about with these heinous criminals. As she says, she's basically just like them. Here's top 14. I lost my older sister a few days before. my seventh birthday and I blame myself for her death and I share that because that they ultimately were accused of committing these violent crimes and sentenced for life and I think it shocked them that this you know blonde lady who was you know the interviewing them had a similar story

Starting point is 00:24:52 was perhaps in the wrong place at the wrong time and but wasn't punished the way they were because clearly it was an accident, but theirs was probably an accident too. Okay, so she says basically that everyone on death row that they, it was just an accident, that they killed someone. Yeah, I mean, total madness to be using her own, and to be, what happened to her sister and what happened to her is a terrible tragedy. I mean, I can't imagine that as a parent. It's an awful thing.

Starting point is 00:25:27 I think, and I don't, you know, she was seven years old when it happened. And like, of course, I don't, she says it was an accident. I believe her. Yeah. I don't blame her for that. But using it now as an adult, as a 50-year-old woman, as this kind of cudgel to drive home a point, a political point, not just any political point, but a deranged, the most deranged point you can make, which is that every violent criminal actually just did it by accident? I mean, what? That's insanity.

Starting point is 00:25:56 I mean, that's the kind of thing that in a just insane. country, you would be totally disqualified from ever holding any kind of position of leadership. And your husband would be too. Like, it's so crazy that we should look at that and say, oh, well, these people can't be anywhere near any position of authority. That's total, that's just total lunacy. But, and maybe we'll have that effect on Gavin Newsom. I mean, you know, as others have remarked, I do think it's quite funny in some ways that

Starting point is 00:26:27 Gavin Newsom is going through great effort, great pains to present himself as this kind of moderate, this sort of normal guy, which is all fake. But he's trying to do it. And then he's got his wife out there trying to put herself at the center of the story and just, and is saying the most insane nonsense. And maybe she's the one who sinks his campaign ultimately. That would be poetic justice. Yeah, I would love for her to keep talking. I had no idea she was so chatty and had so many opinions. but I certainly think that it helps us in 2028 if she is out there front and center. All right, let's talk about some more nonsense. You've uncovered some nonsense when it comes to history and how history has been told to us,

Starting point is 00:27:07 taught to us. And now you have a new episode in your real history series about the Civil War. And what is the main points that you say at the top, which I think is so interesting, is basically that the North wrote the history of the Civil War, and that's why we think of it the way we do. So I'll just let you kind of run with that. What do we need to really know about what went on? Well, I think, you know, this is a series where we look at various different historical episodes.

Starting point is 00:27:38 And, you know, recent, going much farther back into the past. And what we want to do is, it's very simple. We call it real history for a reason, is look at the reality of what actually happened. And try to actually look at it as objectively as one can, which is not entirely objective. But what we don't want to do in this series is replace the, what we know is the kind of cartoonish left-wing version of these historical events with a, with an equally cartoonish opposite view of those same events from the right. We don't want to do that either. What we want to do is look at this and say, look, these are, everyone likes to say, you know, claim everything is new. nuanced these days. Well, some things actually are nuanced. And when it comes to huge historical

Starting point is 00:28:28 topics, like we started with slavery. I mean, slavery is an institution across the entire globe for thousands of years. Very complicated, complex, nuanced topic. And it requires a sober-minded objective analysis. And the Civil War as well. You know, Civil War, in America Civil War, of course, was much, much more contained in terms of the number of years that it occurred. But it's, you know, the most brutal war ever fought by Americans and by far and the reasons for it, what led up to it. The personal motivations of the people on the ground doing the fighting versus the political reasons why the war happened. All of these things are very complicated. And so we try to look at it objectively and just give you a straightforward, you know, it doesn't matter.

Starting point is 00:29:16 This might be upsetting to some people. It's obviously going to be unorthodox. according to the mainstream narrative, don't really care about that. This is what actually happened. And we kind of start in this episode, looking at this interesting shift that's happened. And I think a lot of people don't realize this happened because we take it just sort of takes certain things for granted. That, you know, if you go back a hundred years ago, people back then had a much more kind of sober, sort of objective view of the Civil War.

Starting point is 00:29:58 And by and large, they were able to look at the event and say, hey, it was a terrible thing that it happened. But there were actually heroes on both sides. I mean, there were men on both sides of great heroism and courage and dignity. And they were fighting for what they believed in, you know. And we can respect that and we can honor that, we can celebrate that. And that's why, you know, 100 years ago, you saw a lot of Robert Lee statues go up

Starting point is 00:30:25 and things named after Robert Lee. And then it's really, but think about that. A hundred years ago, there were people who, they were much closer to the event, obviously, in terms of time. And there were people 100 years ago that, like, their grandfathers fought in the Civil War. I mean, they were known people that fought in it

Starting point is 00:30:44 are solid. I mean, they were that close to it. How could it be that the people who were that close to it have a more objective? view of it than us now. It kind of doesn't make any sense because you would think that for them, well, the wounds are still raw,

Starting point is 00:30:58 much more raw than they are for us. So true. And so it would be harder for them. But you think with us, now we have more distance. None of us knew anyone who fought the Civil War. None of us had any relatives we ever met who fought in it or anything like that. It's always just been ancient history to us.

Starting point is 00:31:12 And so you think that we'd be the ones who'd be able to say, look, this happened a long time ago, and so let's just be objective. And yet we're the ones who, no, no, no, We look at the Robert Lee statues and say, oh, we got to tear those down. I can't even look at it. I can't even look. I can't even see that.

Starting point is 00:31:27 It's still so raw to me. How could we be saying that 150 years later, but 100 years ago, they didn't feel that way? Or even, you know, 10 years after the war, they didn't quite feel that the way that we do about it. And, you know, what's happened is this is the propaganda. Is this shift in the way things were taught in the school system, in media? That's what we're living in right now. And so we try to kind of go back and, as I said, take a more objective view. Next sponsor is Voice of the Martyr.

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Starting point is 00:32:42 their neighbors well. We need to know their stories, be encouraged by their stories, but also then convicted to support them and to support Voice of the Martyrs who helps these persecuted Christians around the world. If you go to v.com.org slash alley, that's v.com.org slash alley, you can get a copy of hearts of fire too. I really encourage you to donate to Voice of the Martyrs. They need our support. Our brothers and sisters in Christ need our support. Go to v.com.org slash alley. When I was little 90s early 2000s that, you know, I grew up in Texas, my husband's from Georgia, But my parents are from Arkansas and Louisiana, and so definitely from the South, where it was like normal for boys to, you know, play civil war. And you would have your little like Robert E. Lee little figurine. And of course, if you were a boy in the South, you never wanted to be a Yankee.

Starting point is 00:33:42 You never wanted to be one of the Union soldiers. You wanted to be Robert Lee. You wanted to be the Confederate soldier. And of course, to these families and these little boys, it had nothing to do with, oh, well, I really wish slavery were still around. It had nothing to do with that. And I think people now, they can't separate at all slavery from the Civil War. But as you kind of like retell what really happened to the nuances of the Civil War, you say, well, for a lot of the people, not even now, but then like there was a separation. It wasn't just everyone fighting wasn't just saying, yes, slavery is great.

Starting point is 00:34:17 Right, of course. And now slavery was not, and this is why I say we don't want to replace a cartoonish, sort of left-wing version with the cartoonist right-wing version. And you find that sometimes this is sort of like Civil War revisionism where you have people say, well, actually, slavery had nothing to do with it at all. And no, the Confederates weren't the evil villains. It was the union. That's not true either. I mean, slavery was very much a part of the story, but it wasn't just that. There was the cultural differences between the North and the South, the economic concerns. There was a lot of things that went into it. But that's just the political.

Starting point is 00:34:51 Like that's the, that's what was going on politically. That's what was happening between the leaders of these states and in government. That's one thing. To me, the more interesting thing to look at is, okay, well, the men and boys, you know, some of these soldiers were 17, 18 years old or younger. The men and boys who went and fought and died horrifically. I mean, horrifically. why were they doing that?

Starting point is 00:35:22 What compelled them to do that? And what we're supposed to believe, if you listen to the mainstream narrative, is that, well, Confederate soldiers went to the battlefield to fight and die to protect the rights of rich plantation owners to have slaves on their plantations. And meanwhile, these union men and boys left their homes, came down south and died horribly

Starting point is 00:35:49 because they just believe so much in freeing these poor black slaves. That is total nonsense. That is not at all. I mean, that is not at all the case. One thing you have to keep in mind is that this was the 1860s. Like, by our standards today,

Starting point is 00:36:06 everybody was racist. Not just white people. Everyone who lived on the planet anywhere in 1861 was racist by our standards today. including Abraham Lincoln. Including for sure, including Abraham Lincoln wanted a slave, send the slaves back to Africa. In fact, when Abraham Lincoln was on the record saying initially that,

Starting point is 00:36:26 hey, if I can preserve the union by freeing the slaves, I'll do that. If I can preserve it by not freeing them, I'll do that. I'll do whatever I need to with respect to the slaves just to keep the union preserved because that's what he cared about. And that's the thing. That's what the most of the men who went to do the fighting for the union, they were not doing it to free the slaves.

Starting point is 00:36:45 They didn't, most of them didn't really care that much about that. And there's a reason why when the slaves were freed, the North didn't want the slaves up north with them. You know, it wasn't like, hey, we're going to have a racially equal utopia come on up here. Not at all. They were racist. Like they didn't, they didn't want that for the most part. They went down because they wanted to preserve the union. They thought they were fighting to preserve their country.

Starting point is 00:37:07 Meanwhile, in the South, what they perceive themselves to be fighting for was their homeland, was to protect their home, to protect their home, to protect their country. And for a lot of people in the south, not just in the south, back in the 19th century, it's hard for us to understand this now. But when they thought about their country, they thought first and foremost about their state. You know, when a guy from Virginia said, my country, he meant Virginia. That's what he meant. That's what he identified with most of all, which makes a lot of sense, actually, when you think about it. I mean, this was before, you know, there weren't phones and emails and cars and stuff like that and planes. We're not nearly as connected to someone if you lived in Virginia you might never have any interaction with

Starting point is 00:37:47 somebody in New York ever you know and so you identified much more locally and then the entire country was this was this you know a union we thought at time a voluntary union of states that came together because it served their mutual interests so that's what they thought they were fighting for it and when Robert Lee you know he did not want secession, he was not in favor of it, but then it happened. And now he had a choice that he could either fight for the Union Army or he could fight for the South. The idea of not fighting at all for a man like that was not even factored in. I mean, these were men of, they had a sense of duty

Starting point is 00:38:32 and honor. And of course, if there's a war, you have to fight. You're going to go fight. Not fighting is not an option. So you got to fight with one side of the other. And from his perspective, well, if I go fight, if I go not just fight, but lead the Union army, I am leading an army against my own home. I'm drawing a sword against my own home. Literally, I'm marching on my home, my sons, my family, the people that I've lived with my entire life. I can't do that. You know, if you're going to send an army down here to Virginia, I have to fight and defend my home. I have no choice. That was his perspective. And I just think you're, I just think you're, you know, you'd have to be a dishonest person to look at that.

Starting point is 00:39:12 and say you don't at least understand the moral dilemma he faced. And you can't at least understand why he made the choice that he made. Because I tell you something, if I was in that exact same spot, I'd make the same choice. Like, I'm going to fight alongside my family and for my home. Under no circumstances, am I leading an army against my own home and my own family ever? No way. And I don't know. That to me seems kind of obvious.

Starting point is 00:39:39 So do you think he was a genius and a hero? Yeah, he was. I mean, he was heroic in his courage, as many of these men were. He was a military genius. I mean, a lot of his tactics and strategies are still taught military schools to this day. I think that shouldn't be controversial. I mean, he was certainly a military tactical genius. When you look at, and yeah, the South obviously,

Starting point is 00:40:09 ultimately lost, I think they survived a lot longer than most people would have thought that they would. And they were outmanned, outgunned considerably. They were marching these armies of, you know, 17-year-old farm boys who sometimes didn't even have shoes. And so to have some of the victories that he did on the battlefield, I think, is extraordinary genius. He was a risk-taker. He took huge risks. Didn't always pay off. That's how it is with risks. And that's another reason why, you know, this is why you get a statue made to you. Like if you are a great genius of history and you do things that no one's ever done before and you're remembered in the history books, that's how you get a statue. At least that's how it used to be. You deserve a statue

Starting point is 00:41:03 in that in that situation, I would say. Okay, I want to tell you about Shopify. Shopify, makes your e-commerce life so much easier if you sell products, if you sell merchandise like we do, or maybe you're an artist and you want to sell your art, but you don't know how to set up your online shop. And it's just kind of intimidating and you want to make sure that everything is right, but you're not very techie. You just need to rely on Shopify. They have helped hundreds of thousands of business owners, artists, people who sell products just like you set up their e-commerce site, start making money really easily. And so just rely on them. Let them help you with the product descriptions. Let them help you with the formatting and all that good stuff. We use Shopify

Starting point is 00:41:52 for all of our processes and selling our merchandise for you. And I can tell you that it makes things a lot easier. Then you can go back to doing what you love, which is, of course, creating products. Go to shopify.com slash alley. You can turn all of your what ifs into with Shopify today. You can sign up for your $1 per month trial at Shopify.com slash alley. Before we get back to the rest of the episode, I just want to remind you to please subscribe to Blase TV, all kinds of behind the paywall exclusive subscriber exclusive content for you, documentaries.

Starting point is 00:42:32 You get a subscription to Frontier magazine, which has beautiful journalism and hard-hitting commentary there if you're a Blaze TV unlimited member and you can get all of this and so much more when you go to blazTV.com slash Alley. You get $20 off with my code Alley. This is how you protect Christian conservative commentary from being censored. You join our community at blazestv.com slash Alley. Is there anything you learned about Grant that surprised you in this process? I don't know about surprise me. I think that this is why I say that you want to avoid the cartoonish caricatures on either side of it because I also think that Grant was a man of great courage and was a military genius in his own right as well.

Starting point is 00:43:31 Maybe not so great as a president, but as a military general, he was, you know, a genius. And we should be able to, as I say, 150 years or more after the event, we should be able to look at it and look at the men on both sides and celebrate them for their heroism. Yeah. It is such an interesting point that it's strange that the further we've gotten away from some historical events, bad historical events, the less we're able to see the nuances of them, the less we're able to think objectively. It's become like more personal than the people. people who like lived through that, it seems like, and it really shouldn't be that way. Like, we should ask ourselves how our education and ideology has led us there. I think a lot of times we think, because of that, of what the phenomenon that we've described, that a lot of people think as the South being the only place that slaves exist, that the South was just dominated by slaves. Everyone had a slave in the South. No one had a slave in the North. But in your documentary,

Starting point is 00:44:34 you talk about that that's not true. Right. I mean, there were, slavery was was predominantly in the South. There were slaves in the North, but then also you have to talk about the slave trade, which was run through northern ports. So this idea that slavery is a sin that belongs solely to the South is, is totally absurd. And I got to a point where, you know, it was, it didn't make any economic. sense anymore, but slavery is a, slavery is, was a, certainly a sin that not only was not just contained to the American South, but was obviously not contained to America generally, you know. And we, I think that if, when you look at it historically and you get to the, you know, the middle of the 19th century, that's when you start to see, you know, that's when you start to see these kind of abolition movements take hold in the 19th century, a little bit before that, but really in the 19th centuries when these abolition movements started to take hold. But they're taking hold

Starting point is 00:45:46 in Western countries. That's the important part. And that's kind of the irony of this, is that we're supposed to believe that kind of white people, people of European descent, are the great villains of the slavery story uniquely guilty of it. But if anything, the exact opposite is true. White people, people of European descent were not unique in having slaves. They were unique in abolishing it. They were not the first to have slaves. They didn't have the worst form of it or the most brutal form. What was unique was in America and in Western Europe was abolishing slavery. and they abolished slavery and abolished the slave trade forcibly, while Africa and the Middle East and Asia clung to it.

Starting point is 00:46:40 I mean, slavery existed legally in Africa until like 1980. I think the last African country to officially abolish slavery legally was in like the mid-1900s. And I want to say it was around 1980. Yeah. It was that reason. I feel like the Libyan slave trade has, maybe not legally, because I don't know when it became illegal there. But the Libyan slave trade has persisted, has existed underground or not for a very long time.

Starting point is 00:47:12 And obviously there's still slavery of, you know, the Uighur Muslims and places like China. And people act like that was just like the end of history. And it's not. It still persists in a lot of the non-Western world today. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's an important point, that it doesn't exist legally anymore, anywhere. It doesn't exist on the books, but slavery certainly exists still today. But, you know, in particular, in African countries and in Middle Eastern countries. And as I said, they, they, a lot of these, a lot of these regions of the world clung to it. They didn't want it to go away because they were profiting from it. You know, It was like the Arab slave traders were still carting slaves around, and it was European ships that were tracking down the Arab slave traders and, you know, boarding their ships and forcing them. And many times they'd see the European ships coming and they'd, they'd, you know, toss all their

Starting point is 00:48:15 slaves off into the ocean. Yeah. But, you know, it was, again, it was Europeans who were policing this. And then if you go back into the more distant past, you'll find that you get to a certain point where for thousands of years of human history, it really just didn't occur to anyone that slavery was fundamentally wrong, that there was something in principle wrong with it. And that's a difficult thing to face and to wrap your head around. But it's an interesting fact. And I think one of the tragedies of our cartoonish view of history is that it's a difficult thing to face and to wrap your head around. But it's an interesting fact. And I think one of the tragedies of our cartoonish view of history

Starting point is 00:48:52 is that it deprives us of the opportunity to have edifying, useful, fruitful, interesting conversations about history. And so we should be able to talk about it. Why is that? Why is it that for thousands of years across the entire globe, slavery was one of the things that everybody agreed on in that it was okay?

Starting point is 00:49:15 I mean, you had, when, when, you had, when Europeans first encountered natives in the new world, and it was like you had these civilizations that had been separated for thousands of years, basically like it's like two alien species finding each other. It's kind of what it was like. And they didn't speak the same language, vastly different traditions and certainly religions, but they both had slavery. They both had come to that conclusion independently.

Starting point is 00:49:42 And why is that? And I think that's an interesting thing we could talk about, but we can't because we have to probably, up this notion that somehow it was all, you know, Americans that did it. Last sponsor for the day is good ranchers. All right, it is almost grill season. You want to make sure that you don't only have good meat in your home, but you want to make sure it's all American meat. Why not support American farms and ranches? If you're going to be eating steak and hamburgers and chicken anyway, why waste your time at the grocery store? Buying meat that's

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Starting point is 00:50:50 Code Alley. You know, you just have some interesting facts that I just want to read for people that speaks to your argument that this war, yes, slavery was a huge part of it, but it wasn't the only part of it. Like you talk about how 42% of New York City households own slaves in Connecticut, 50% of ministers, lawyers, public officials owned slave. One in 14 people in Rhode Island was a slave. Many northern states had oppressive black codes.

Starting point is 00:51:21 Obviously, there was segregation, discrimination, all kinds of. of things that the war wasn't, as you said, not just about these like social justice warriors of the North trying to like avenge the rights of black people that it also had to do with an economic balance of power, that it also did have to do in some cases with states' rights. So it's not that slavery wasn't a part of it. It's just that there are other parts of it that are important to understand and explore, I mean, for the sake of truth. But why else would you say it's important for people to know the real history,

Starting point is 00:51:53 because I'm sure that there have been people who have said to you, why does it really matter? Why does it really matter? If we're making a good moral point that slavery is bad, why does it matter that we get the facts right? Yeah, well, I mean, I'll get to that question. I also want a historical note on this also, just to drive the point home that this was not, for the people on the ground doing the fighting, this was not about slavery. And one of the reasons we know that is the Emancipation Proclamation. The Emancipation Proclamation was not issued until midway through the war.

Starting point is 00:52:22 and it was specifically issued, it was written in a way to not actually free any slaves that that Lincoln could free. It was freeing the slaves in the states that are in rebellion. Well, he didn't have, he couldn't do that. He didn't have control over those states at the time. So he specifically was keeping enslaved, the only slaves that he could free. And so why was it? Like, why was this proclamation not issued at the outset? And I think it's because this was a political move. And initially, they would have had trouble getting people in the north to go down and fight this war if they thought that it was actually just about freeing the slaves.

Starting point is 00:52:55 They were not going to do that. So this was a political move and one of the reasons was to keep the European powers out of it, out of coming into the war on the side of the Confederates. And it was a genius political move, but that's that's what it was. So and to your other question, you know, why is it important to know little factoid like that? It's, I mean, I'm trying not to lapse into, I'm trying to answer with that. lapsing into cliches about, you know, you've got to know your history, so you're not doomed to

Starting point is 00:53:25 repeat it. But maybe there's a less cliche way of putting it. I'm just not clever enough to come up with. But it is, it is in large part that. You know, we should have the benefit as Americans in the year 2026. We've all this human history behind us. And not only that, but we have access to more information and more knowledge than any humans in the history of the race, the human race ever have. I mean, we carry around in our pockets the sum total of human knowledge in our pockets, right? I mean, we have access.

Starting point is 00:54:01 We consume more information in a day than our ancestors did in their entire lives. And so there should be a benefit to that, which is that we're able to learn the lessons of the past, and we can actually become wiser because of it. You know, that's wisdom is, wisdom is not just having information and it's not just knowing stuff. It's having the information which becomes knowledge, which then informs how you act today, informs your actions today. It's learning the lessons from that information and from that knowledge that you have. But you're not going to do that if you're walking around with this comic book idea of history.

Starting point is 00:54:46 And then the other problem too is that it, there's a sense of humility and gratitude that we should have when we think about our nation's past and we think about our ancestors, humility and gratitude, and also pride. But it's a humble pride because it's not a pride in anything that we did. It's like the pride that you take and if a family member achieves something great and we say, I'm proud of that. But it's not because you're taking credit for it. It's because you are humbled by their accomplishment and you love them.

Starting point is 00:55:26 And so that's what you mean by pride. And we should have those things for our country and for our ancestors. But many people in a country today don't have that. Instead, they have this sense of, you know, it's a sense of, you know, of entitlement, this kind of like snobbiness, this, I think C.S. Lewis talked about chronological snobbery. There's a lot of that feeling better than the people who came before us, looking at our country with this kind of resentment. All of that, I think, stems in large part from not knowing our, not knowing our history. Yeah. And I don't think it's a coincidence that in the past,

Starting point is 00:56:10 I don't know, 15 to 20 years as we've become more sensitive about these periods of history, that we have also become less stable when it comes to, like, our modern sense of justice. Like, people are actually more incensed about injustices and perceived injustices from 200 years ago than they are about some of the things that we talked about at the top of the show. And to me, like, that's just not a coincidence. It's like this progressive worldview in social justice that actually perverts real, justice and also it just gets human nature wrong. It gets good and evil wrong. I think that's part of the reason why what you're doing is really important. It just makes us look more factually and

Starting point is 00:56:51 objectively about who humans are and what they've done for better and for worse. There are much better lessons to be drawn from that than this like, you know, as you said, clownish narrative on either side of history. We can't learn anything from things that aren't true. Where can people find your series. You can go to dailywire.com. It's available for subscribers. You've got to subscribe. And we have three episodes, I believe, currently up. And we just recorded our next episode, which I won't get into right now, but I'm excited about it. It's going to upset all the right people. Good. So we're continuing to make episodes, but you've got to become a subscriber and watch it. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Matt. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Appreciate it.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1330 | Matt Walsh on Iryna Zarutska’s Case, the Death Penalty & Civil War Myths | Matt Walsh

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