Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1351 | We Need This Wake-Up Call Before the Midterms | Kevin Roberts

Starting point is 00:00:00 After Charlie Kirk was assassinated, the right almost immediately fractured. Now we have all these different factions and it's hard to know what the future is of conservatism. What is the future of America? Do the midterms even matter? Today we've got the president of the Heritage Foundation, Kevin Roberts, to give us the lay of the land, give us some action steps and to help us know what's next and how we can get involved. You're going to love this episode and be so encouraged and educated by it. This episode is brought to you by her friends at Good Ranchers.

Starting point is 00:00:33 Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use Code Alley at checkout. That's good ranchers.com, code Alley. Kevin Roberts, thanks so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. It is a pleasure. You know that all of us at Heritage think the world of you. Thanks for what you do.

Starting point is 00:00:54 Well, likewise. The feeling is mutual. So I thought there's no better person to ask about the current state of conservatism. And to me, it is not really a simple question, especially post-Charlie's assassination. nation. There's just a lot of, I don't know, growing pains, dissensions, fractures going on. So what is your lay of the land from your vantage point? Lay of the land in sort of two big ways. Number one is a lot, maybe most of those pain points,

Starting point is 00:01:23 fissures, come from the conservative movement growing. And so one thing that's a silver lining to what is some very frustrating and unseemly commentary, especially online, is that it's because it's growing and and therefore and you know I'm going to look at this as a historian when any ideological movement grows that the proverbial problem of a big tent becomes really difficult but the second thing that I would say to tell you something that you and your audience know well is that this is aggravated by social media not everyone on social media but the fact that we can fire off something without fully thinking about it then just inflames those those tensions and so the upshot for me for us at heritage because our ethos is not just to add and multiply to make the movement bigger, but to make it

Starting point is 00:02:11 more cohesive, is to try to appeal to those principles, those concepts that cohere almost everyone. We might have some differences of opinion on how we get there. For example, Heritage's family policy paper. We happen to think it's really bright, right? Otherwise, we wouldn't have published it. There are some friends in the movement who don't love the idea, but we credit them for how they've gone about the discourse of that, right? And what is Heritage's position? on that? Our position is being conservative, not libertarian, that there is a role for government to help spur greater marriage and birth rates. And there are some policy specifics there that would cost us some money. That's the bottom line, right? And that's the rub, but a very friendly rub between

Starting point is 00:02:51 us and some thoughtful friends on the right. And I use that example to offer a hopeful example of how it's still possible for us as a conservative family to have productive conversations, not for the sake of destroying each other, but for the sake of saying, as these friends on the right have said, we credit heritage for starting this conversation. I think my colleagues owed that credit, but we want to refine some of these proposals this way. Those are the conversations we need to have

Starting point is 00:03:19 about real policy substance that affects everyday Americans. And that might be the sort of rule of thumb, that we talk about real things rather than just sort of ephemeral things that are easy to opine about. Yeah. There was this back and forth, speaking of social media, between Matt Walsh and Nick Pointes, and I wouldn't typically quote Nick Fuentes, but I actually think his position here is representative of what some people think. So it's kind of worth noting that Matt argued that if we're going to have a dividing line on what's considered the right that he believes, as I do,

Starting point is 00:03:51 it should be that those who believe in natural marriage are willing to fight for it, who believe in the cohesion of the family, and who fight for the unborn. that those are essential allies, that we can disagree on some other things or how to go about protecting those things, but those are the core issues. And Nick Fuentes replied, no, it has to be America first versus Israel first. And again, I think that that is actually representative of what some people on the right think. So what do you make of that back and forth? Yeah, on the substance of the ideas, I've learned not to talk about personalities, right? on the substance of the ideas, the idea that we're going to define conservative, conservatism primarily by our belief in the family being the most important institution is correct.

Starting point is 00:04:37 That's always been the case for conservatives. Obviously, we can expand the movement to cover some other policy objectives. But this increasingly popular criticism of the state of Israel on the right is something that's problematic. And it's problematic on a couple of levels. First of all, let me be sure that people understand. can distinguish between political Zionism, which is our fervent belief in the state of Israel's right to exist, right? And theological Zionism, which is not adhered to by every Christian. And that's okay, certainly at heritage. That's what we believe. But on the right, particularly among young

Starting point is 00:05:11 men who follow certain podcasters, there is this desire to create this division between what might be America first and what might be a smart foreign policy regarding other countries. on the facts of the matter, just to delve into this one more and one more level of detail, Israel as a state is a model ally for the United States. It's a stronger military ally than Great Britain has been. It can at least field an army, which would be questionable, unfortunately, about the British. We think we have an emerging, equally strong ally in the far east in Japan, and in a lot of ways, Japan, in similar ways, could be equally effective in the far East as Israel is in the mid-east, the reason that I say all of this detail is focusing on the

Starting point is 00:05:55 substance of the matter allows us to see the certain questions, whether it's the family, whether it's Israel, whether it's other questions in the movement, with a lot more clarity, rather than just using it as a trope, which I'm afraid sometimes that it is. Ultimately, how do we get past this? We talk about the substance, and we welcome the debate as long as the debate is within the confines of acceptable conversation, right? And what we're trying to do at Heritage is have those family conversations rather than say, oh, what you're seeing online, people don't really believe.

Starting point is 00:06:30 No, some of them do believe it. And it's very important that we engage with them so that we can, as we would like to do at Heritage, convince them of the right policy proposals. And when you're talking about the limits of acceptable conversation, I think what you're saying, but correct me if I'm wrong. Okay, yes, we can talk about some policy disagreements that we might have or maybe you're someone who believes that we give too much,

Starting point is 00:06:51 we give too much support to countries in general. Or maybe you have some questions about the alliance that we have with Israel or other nations. The conversations that are no longer productive are those that are like, well, all Jewish people are responsible for XYC or choose to run the world or the Zionist lobby has disproportionate, you know, power and is persuading all of these podcasters and politicians. Is that kind of how you're distinguishing between productive, acceptable conversation and then the conversations that kind of devolve into conspiracy, et cetera.

Starting point is 00:07:20 It is. And that's probably the easiest way to describe that red line. Facts or even theories versus conspiracy theories. And it can be very difficult to figure out what someone's motives are. But when people online are saying that Donald Trump of all people was provoked into this current conflict with Iran because of Israel, that's just absurd on its face. if for no other reason than knowing how Donald Trump operates, right? It doesn't mean that we can't have a conversation about the future of America's alliances with other countries,

Starting point is 00:07:57 about the wisdom of certain policies of the Israeli government. But having those conversations, which are legitimate conversations, actually is a way of giving oxygen to the kinds of discourse we need to be engaged in on the facts and even some of the well-informed theories, rather than giving oxygen to the conspiracy theories. All right. I've got a new sponsor today, and that is Penny Panglin. These are really sweet books that we have in our house.

Starting point is 00:08:28 They're fun, relatable kid stories, beautiful illustrations. The narration is by David McCormick, and he is the guy who plays bandit on Bluey, Bluey's dad. The themes in the books are things like forgiveness, responsibility, even food sensitivity, picky, eating, sportsmanship, bullying. healthy screen time habits. They're really fun. They're really wholesome. The books can be read in any order. There's a lesson for whatever your child is working through right now. And if you want the best value, the complete hardcover collection includes all six books, a coloring book, and free companion

Starting point is 00:09:05 audiobooks, so perfect, narrated by David McCormick, the voice of Bandit from Blue. If you've got older kids, such as 12 and up, there's an award-winning series called Heroes of Time, their fantasy novels. I haven't read those. you might want to check them out before your kid reads them. I'm sure they're awesome. Good, clean fun for the entire family. Go to penny pangling.com slash alley. Penny panglin.com slash alley. I saw this poll that said that among Gen Z, 75% consider themselves pro-Palestine, and then the 25% consider themselves anti-Israel. Obviously, as you were saying earlier, all of us want to multiply conservative ideas,

Starting point is 00:09:49 and we want more people to vote for the policy. that we support. How do we go about on what seems like such a polarizing issue? It does almost seem like the polarizing issue right now. How do we go about bringing people in when the Republican Party is largely pro-Israel and the younger voters seem to be completely opposed? It is very difficult. I want to acknowledge that up front, but we at Heritage think we have at least one part of the solution, and that is to continue to advocate for and implement what is commonly now referred to as a realist foreign policy, which is to say, as Donald Trump, more than anyone else taught us, especially in his first term, that the United States will always have the most

Starting point is 00:10:33 lethal, efficient military, hopefully used more sparingly. When it is used, it needs to be proper, it needs to be time limited, when we can avoid ground troops in particular because of the greater likelihood of loss of life for our servicemen and women. We do so. I think that as we sit here, Ali Beth, if the Iran conflict comes to a close pretty soon, and I think that it will. And friends of the president on the right are reassured that we're continuing on this trajectory of a more realist foreign policy, frankly more restrained, that that is going to give us a touchstone to bring some people back on the right into the fold and to appeal, perhaps not to the far left, but to the center left of people who understand that this is a proper constitutional,

Starting point is 00:11:18 restrained use of American power, that might be a sales pitch to them that we can deliver. But it starts, once again, with implementing good policy. And I think that's what we have to do. Conversely, if I may, if, God forbid, for a lot of reasons, it's November and we're still active in Iran, that's going to be a very difficult thing to do, because we will have lost, on the political right, one of the most popular newer ideas that I have seen in my half decade now here in Washington, D.C., leading heritage, which is that America will remain strong, but it's going to be a lot more restrained in the use of that military power. That's a popular idea, period. It's particularly popular, as you know, with younger men and women. Right. And that is another divide that I see

Starting point is 00:12:02 that a lot of the older Republicans, a lot of the baby boomers, obviously President Trump himself and people around him, are like, yes, peace through strength. This is something that we have to do. They've talked about the timeline, why it had to be right now. But then, of course, you have another side who says this is completely unnecessary. It's going to start World War III. We are threatening the lives of our own kids and grandkids. And I think it can be really hard for the average conservative. You've got two sides with people that you trust, both saying what kind of sounds like reasonable, smart things, and you just don't know what to think. And so how should we navigate that? How do we know who to listen to? Well, for the thoughtful voices who have been voices of

Starting point is 00:12:46 constructive critique of the president's involvement in Iran. And I say they're thoughtful because they're not engaged in conspiracy theory. They're just saying they're offering a rational hypothesis, which is that if we're there too long, this series of events could happen. I happen to think that's a correct diagnosis, which is why at Heritage we have done two things. First of all, tell the president and his administration, they have done, I think, a flawless job in executing this campaign. A flawless. It's been a purpose. perfect military campaign. Having said that, they will continue to see diminished popular support for this the longer the war goes. Because while, of course, I think the president is correct about

Starting point is 00:13:28 a clear and present danger to the United States for only 47 years, you know, by this former regime, we also understand the United States. We have some other problems we have to fix. The country generally trusts President Trump on the economy. We have the midterms coming up. There's a reality that has to be confronted there. And so I think, to sum up here, as long as this war is a war of weeks rather than a war of months or, God forbid, years, that those people who've offered the constructive critiques of no more forever wars, and they're right about that, are people who are going to be back in the fold, at least politically with the president's coalition.

Starting point is 00:14:05 And it gives us the opportunity when we get to 2027 and beyond to continue to build what I think is a very durable, long-lasting majority political coalition around the mindset that when the United States must be involved internationally, militarily, on behalf of its people, it'll be quick, it'll be lethal, it'll be total, but it will be just a period of weeks. Our technology will allow us to do that. The postscript that I have to observe, I would be remiss if I didn't, is that if you don't do this, the Chinese take a lesson from it, which is that, the United States is incapable of having a quick military conflict, that the Iranians will have succeeded in drawing down to the point of real concern America's munitions. Our index of military

Starting point is 00:14:53 strength at Heritage, for example, shows that we are incapable, unfortunately, tragically, of fighting two full-scale wars at the same time. Always difficult, but we've done that a couple of times. We can't do that right now if China decides to act up towards Taiwan. That's yet another reason that some of the thoughtful voices, not the conspiracy voices, the thoughtful voices on the right are encouraging the president to wind this down. And what makes you feel optimistic that it will end in a matter of weeks or months and not years? Well, two things. Number one, I believe it when I mean it when I say it. I think the president's earned that trust. He has been exceptional across the board, especially regarding national security and foreign policy. But the second is,

Starting point is 00:15:38 maybe for someone who doesn't believe that as fervently as I do, the president's a pragmatist. And he understands competing goods. He understands that it is a good to denude the evil regime of Iran of its military power. It is a good to eliminate from the chess board in the Middle East Iran's military nuclear program. It's also a good to pay attention to the American economy, which has, I think it's ready to just take off and have a Trump boom, but it's being held back. by the oil prices that are generated, of course, from Iran. And it's also really important for Americans to see this president, who was elected in large part because of his focus on a domestic agenda,

Starting point is 00:16:18 to be back focused on the domestic agenda. I know that my friend, President Trump, doesn't like to hear that observation right now because he rightly wants to see this war to a conclusion, and I applaud him for that. But over the next weeks, it's going to be really important that he does so. Right. Do you think concern over the war is something that is largely felt by independents and conservatives?

Starting point is 00:16:42 Or do I just feel like that because I'm seeing commentators, fellow podcasters really, really press Trump on this? And I think it has to do with Israel. It has to do, I think, with Charlie being gone somewhat because Charlie was always the one to kind of help us understand what Trump is thinking and why. but then also I think it has to do with this war and some people feel betrayed. I mean, how representative do you think that is of the voters? I think it's very representative. I mean, it may be a touch more vocal because of the nature of podcasting, right? But I think one of the geniuses of how heritage was founded is that while we're headquartered

Starting point is 00:17:25 in Washington, D.C., we're supported by Normies, by everyday Americans. And I'm often asked the question, you know, how can you, Kevin, or your colleagues, stay normal and not be out of touch like everyone else in Washington? Well, because of the people we hang out with, right? And so I know what I hear from you and other very thoughtful podcasters who are certainly supportive of the president, but offering some constructive critiques about the Iran conflict is representative of what people are saying. In fact, I'm just going to drill down a little bit more, if I may, the most common thing that I hear, if I'm out, you know, in the Shundo, on the, on the, weekend or on heritage business visiting with everyday Americans is and these are from Died in the wool MAGA supporters Trump is the end-all-be-all they support the president they certainly support our servicemen and service women they are willing to

Starting point is 00:18:14 support the Iran conflict provided it's time limited but they say in the very next breath what about grocery prices yeah what about gas prices and and what I would want the president to understand is when they're erring those questions they're not erring questions questioning his leadership or his authority, they're wondering when he's going to be able to get back to turning his attention to that because they trust him on it. And I think that's really what, if it's the end of the summer and we're still in Iran, that's going to be a real problem, not just for the president, but for conservative policymakers in Washington is trust by the base on focusing on what they were elected to do, which is to be

Starting point is 00:18:55 focused on the domestic agenda. Right now, the president can do both, but I think the clock is ticking. Yeah, and it can be hard, especially when an American is struggling to see the importance of engaging in a foreign conflict. It's not that there's not the capacity to understand, but all of us are like this. When there's a pressing issue right in front of us, we can't think about the thing that is far away or in the future or something. And so I think people want to feel the relief. They hear the news that good things are happening economically, that good things are happening, and the Justice Department or good things are happening at the border,

Starting point is 00:19:28 but they want to be able to see it and feel it in their own communities. And I think some do, but they really want to feel it. You know, they want to feel that relief. I'm glad you put it that way because what I hear from a lot of Trump supporters is they want to see the grocery and gas prices come down to the level the president says they're going to, right? And it isn't just for their own benefit. We all want that, right? It's that they want this president to succeed.

Starting point is 00:19:55 Yeah. And so the reason I can sit here as a not just professional but also personal supporter of the president is because I believe so much in his agenda, he's succeeded in closing the border. Zero border crossings. Zero border crossings of the southern border. I think most people don't even realize that. I know. And I just got back from a preliminary briefing from some senior economic advisors in Congress.

Starting point is 00:20:18 I think the second quarter economic data is going to be very good. especially if the Iran conflict comes to a conclusion this April, which means the third quarter will be great. I want that for Americans, left to right, but it also will have the political benefit of the midterms. And the reason I say that, even though I'm more interested in ideas and policy, is because if we want good policies to be implemented, the elections have to go well. There is no doubt in my mind that the president is considering all of this. He's got not just a CEO profile, which means that he can handle a lot of information at once. He's a brilliant guy, and I think he's going to get this one right. I just think he's probably now down to a couple of weeks to do so.

Starting point is 00:21:02 Next sponsor is Seven Weeks Coffee. Seven Weeks Coffee is America's Pro-Life Coffee Company. They allow the coffee that you drink to serve a higher purpose. I saw that a mainstream, very popular coffee company where you probably get a lot of your morning coffee, that they are re-upping their commitment to pay for abortions for their employees. It just reminds us that, like, when we spend our money, it really matters. It's going somewhere, it's supporting somewhere, and maybe we can't be absolutely perfect when it comes to that, but we can make little choices that really make a difference.

Starting point is 00:21:33 The great thing about seven weeks coffee is that 10% of every sale of seven weeks goes to a pregnancy center across the country. They're saving lives. They're serving women. They've donated over a million dollars to these pregnancy centers because of you. Because you buy seven weeks coffee, totally clean, ethically raised, sustainably sourced, pesticide free, mold-free, really great tasting. We love seven weeks coffee. Subscribe. You'll save 15% plus you'll save an extra 10% with my code Alley. Seven Weeks Coffee.com, code Alley. What do you think expounding upon that that Trump has done really well so far? And what is maybe one thing, maybe two things that you would really like to see him focus on in the next two and a half years?

Starting point is 00:22:20 He has in terms of specific policy, and then they'll talk about attitude for the country, he has gotten an A plus on. on border enforcement. And you know, you would like to think every president would do that. But we now live in an era where there's this, this seesaw effect between the left and the right on that, A plus on that. And mass deportations. So zero crossings, but mass deportations, I think some people are like, when are we going to see that? Is that still happening after the huge kerfuffle in Minneapolis?

Starting point is 00:22:47 I think that it will. That was certainly a PR problem. The administration let the left take advantage of them. And that administration of all the administration should know. better, but it happened, having said that, there is a lot of political support, including heritages, behind revitalizing the mass remigration, the mass deportations. I think that has to happen, not just as a matter of justice, but also as a matter of political trust to make sure that this movement includes that. So A plus on southern border enforcement, interior enforcement has been

Starting point is 00:23:22 choppier, but in fairness to the administration, that's because of the plethora of sanctuary, cities, counties and states. So what we're trying to do at Heritage in this coalition on deportations is to provide the political air cover for the administration to ramp back up on that. The administration has also done a good job on fiscal policy. This is something that is not President Trump's passion. He's someone who is more willing, I think is a pragmatist to spend money than to cut. He's not a fiscal hawk. The one big beautiful bill, imperfect. It's a reconciliation bill by by definition it is, actually is, I think, by the end of the second quarter, as I mentioned, going to directly result in what we will probably come to know is a Trump boom. So it's a little bit

Starting point is 00:24:06 of a preliminary grade on the economy, but I think he's done well there. What could be better? I'll be honest with you. I think that while the president convinced me and us at Heritage over the last several years that we were mistaken about being too soft on China, we thought that, like I think most Americans, we were going to succeed in turning China into America, that we had to be much more hawkish. The administration's been a little uneven in its implementation of that hawkish China stance on the tariffs, for example. China, even though it should be target number one, gets some preferential treatment, which my colleagues and I believe should come to an end. We believe that China continues to get the better of the United States when it comes to

Starting point is 00:24:51 some intellectual property, especially chips. The administration's trying, and we applaud for that. We just think that they ought to exert even more political capital on that, not just because it's right, not just because it's good and just, but because it's also politically popular. This is something that's a bipartisan issue in terms of support. And then I would also encourage the president when it comes to immigration to come back to that to really double down on the importance of assimilation, the importance of wanting to be an American beyond the beyond getting the certificate that you're an American citizen, and to embrace what many of us have argued for decades,

Starting point is 00:25:32 which is that the best way to be a pro-immigration country is to have laws that require immigrants to assimilate. English should be the official language. We should have these mass deportations. You should break the back of these sanctuary, cities, counties, and states. If that's something that needs to wait until January because of midterm considerations, that's fine. It just needs to happen, not just because it's good,

Starting point is 00:25:56 but also because we will, in this movement, strain credulity with our base if we don't deliver on that. Americans want their country back. And I can think of no president, certainly in modern history, who better embodies the desire to do that than Donald Trump. Yeah. And that's a top issue for me. Of course, I'm a big culture war girl. The things that I see is creation order issues, abortion, gender, marriage. Those are going to be top.

Starting point is 00:26:20 But other than that, crime, immigration. And like, I'm just the suburban mom. But those are the things I really see affecting my community. And it's not just, it's not only illegal immigration. And this is where I think the conversation has shifted on the right. In a good way, I just don't know the solution for it. Is that people are saying, yes, illegal immigration number one. But also, it doesn't seem like our legal immigration is really prioritizing American interests.

Starting point is 00:26:48 And when people see their communities, the neighborhoods that they grew up in completely shift. And when people see churches turning into mosques, I think most Americans are uncomfortable saying it, but there's something unsettling about it. And I don't know that many voters know how to articulate what our goal is or what we want, but something just doesn't seem just. And I haven't heard a whole lot of politicians be able to say there's a solution for that. So what do you think about it? Well, I will say, and not just for me, but from all of us at Heritage, I'm not uncomfortable saying it. It's a travesty. We ought not have this plethora of mosques being built anywhere. We ought not tolerate at any level of government what is at least the partial implementation of Sharia law.

Starting point is 00:27:34 And I'm not holding President Trump responsible for that. I actually think he's going to get onto that issue, but I want to encourage him there. I think that what we've learned now that we have closed the southern border, you know, almost a small political miracle, if you will, is that we can move on to the next order of questions. And that is, what does it mean to be an American? What does it mean to be a citizen and not just in a legal sense, but in a social and cultural sense to be part of your neighborhood, your community, right? Well, at the very least, it means you ought to speak English, and English ought to be our official language. It also means that while, of course, we will honor religious liberty, that there ought to be certain restrictions against

Starting point is 00:28:12 not just religions, but particular political implementations of religions. I'm talking about Islamism and some of the head coverings that are political statements more than they are honoring religious traditions. We have to understand that this country was based on principles that came from Jerusalem, Athens, Rome, London, and Philadelphia. We are both Judeo and Christian in our founding. That doesn't mean that there isn't room for other people, but it does mean that it's possible in a country that is so generous toward immigrants that we might have too many people. people from the wrong places. Right. You know my Christian faith.

Starting point is 00:28:53 I believe as it is demanded of me because of my faith that every human person is equal in the eyes of God. A nation state can believe that. And also because it believes it say that legal immigration should be so restricted as to be able to perpetuate the best parts of that society, right? We at Heritage look forward to having that conversation. And what I would say to especially friends on the right who just deny that this is a thing, that that train has left the station and the future of this movement, if it's going to be successful,

Starting point is 00:29:28 we'll be engaging these questions and offering thoughtful policy solutions about them. It really does start right now in this administration. Yeah, you can't really any longer tell people, oh, no, it's no different. This is still the country that you grew up in in the 90s in the early 2000s. Look, I have eyes. And the suburb, the neighborhood that I grew up in, it's not the same. And I'm not saying all the people are bad. I'm just saying, do I have a right as an American to say, this is actually not my culture?

Starting point is 00:29:57 And if I wanted to live there, I would move there. If I wanted to live in the Middle East, I would move in the Middle East, but I want to live in America. And I want these people to share my values. And I am so glad you're not uncomfortable saying that. Too many politicians are and too many people are. But it's true. And we would never fault someone from some. Zimbabwe or from China to say, I love Chinese culture. I love Zimbabwean culture. I want to

Starting point is 00:30:20 maintain that. I want to push that forward. I love our values. And yet when it comes to America, an American saying that, it's immediately castigated. It's immediately condemned as bigotry. So I'm glad that you see a taste for that in Washington, hopefully. I certainly see a taste for it among, as you said, the normie Americans. They don't know how to put words to it, but they look around and they're like, this is not right. That's right. They're not because they're They're dumb, obviously, and that's obviously not what you're suggesting. It's that they're looking to leaders, policy leaders, to help them put words to it because they're looking for solutions.

Starting point is 00:30:52 It would be like me, as a Roman Catholic, showing up in Saudi Arabia or some other Islamic country and walking around with my rosary and my wife deciding she's going to walk around as an American. We would never do that, right? Because we respect the traditions of the country that we have decided to visit. We have tens of millions of Americans, however, who've decided to do that, as if this country did not have a very specific founding by a very specific people in a very specific place. This is a country not just based on ideas or a creed, but it's based on a culture. A culture,

Starting point is 00:31:24 not just admittedly, but to celebrate, made up of many different cultures, people of different backgrounds, the most diverse civil society in history. But we're so audacious in the United States that for 250 years we've said we're still going to be one. Anything that violates that ethos is unacceptable and we have to become more comfortable to say it. And there's got to be a buy-in. There's just got to be a buy-in for that. Yes, religious liberty. Yes, all of that. But the people coming here, the people who live here, you've got to buy into that. Or else none of this works. It's not cohesive. That simple. Next sponsor is Good Ranchers. We love Good Ranchers in our home, bacon wrapped chicken with the bacon from Good Ranchers, the chicken from Good

Starting point is 00:32:10 Ranchers. I mean, we eat the chicken breast multiple nights a week just because it's so versatile. You can use it for so many things. Our kids will eat it. They've got seed oil-free chicken nuggets, which we also ate this week. Their steaks are amazing. Their ground beef is so good. I just don't even have a tolerance for meat from the grocery store anymore because I'm so used to the quality of good ranchers. Plus, I love supporting American farms and ranchers, and it just makes my life easier. I don't have to go to the grocery store and pick out meat and wonder where it's from and what the quality is. It's sent right to my front door on dry ice every month. I don't even have to think about it. I haven't had to think about it in five years. This is another way that you can support America. You can support

Starting point is 00:32:48 a Christian family-owned company. Go to good ranchers.com. Use code Alley. You'll save $40 off your first order. Goodrachers.com, code Alley. Okay, I want to talk a little bit more about the things that we care about, not only as conservatives, but as social conservatives. So Heritage launched a special report, naming marriage, is the focal point of an American resurgence. Can you tell us why that is? Why is marriage so important if we're talking about America reaching her glory days again? Marriage is the most important because it is the farthest upstream factor from all the things we've just been discussing. I won't bore you in your audience with the hundred steps of the connection between the decline of marriage and what we were just talking about.

Starting point is 00:33:35 You could tell us some of the steps. It's fascinating. We'll stick to the main focus, which is to tell you something you know, marriage rates have declined. And That has been a problem for 50 years in the United States, but what has aggravated that is a very serious and steady decline in birth rates. And so the reason that this is important, which is not to be pedantic, is that without marriage and births of native-born Americans, regardless of their ethnic background, you're simply not going to perpetuate the society. You're going to have to rely on immigration. So actually, it's just two steps. But the second thing is even more important. Where do we get our sense of values? Where do we get our sense of values? Where do we get our

Starting point is 00:34:14 sense of gratitude for our faith, for our country, for our neighbors, even if we disagree with them politically, from the family that we grow up in. What we're saying, not saying at heritage, is that everyone needs to have the perfect family. We're saying that for too long, policymakers, especially in Washington, have not only ignored this, they've actually contributed to the problem. There are scores of disincentives in federal safety net programs, federal welfare programs toward marriage. At the very least, we need to reverse those. But what we're positing at Heritage is that the time has come because the birth rate has gotten so low, so far below replacement, that we might need to incentivize marriage in the way other countries have done. Hungary has had

Starting point is 00:34:58 mixed results. Israel actually has had the best results in seeing in that investment of the public's money in incentivizing marriage and births at least a slight increase in the rates of both. That's what we need to do in this country. Actually think if we can do that, although it will take a couple of generations to see the full benefit, that you're going to see some of these other problems dissipate, whether they be immigration or, for that matter, education. Can you give me an example of a policy that could incentivize marriage? Sure. We love the idea of the Trump accounts, and people with young children probably love them right now, too, because they're being implemented now. So our scholars took that idea of a Trump account, which puts $1,000 in the account of a

Starting point is 00:35:41 young American under 18. And we said, let's plus that up to $2,500 for each of a married couple. So $5,000 by the end of their 20s if they're married and have children. There's that. Very modest. We understand that, you know, this is not $500,000, but it's a start. The second thing that we advocate for in this paper is an expansion of the adoption tax credit, which is about $17,000 to help subsidize adoptions. Why do we as American subsidize adoptions? because they're good. They're good for everyone involved. And so if that's the case for adoptions, then implicit in that law is that we honor births in this country. So we thought, well, if we're going to honor adoptions, which are outstanding, how about we honor natural births if they're

Starting point is 00:36:28 possible for that married couple? And so each birth would have that tax credit with a 25% bonus for people who have three or more children. This is not just aggressive, it's audacious. We believe that these policies have to be audacious if you're going to have a chance at turning the corner and not becoming a nation either of half the population by 2100 or a population of immigrants. Nothing against them as people, but you're going to lose this country as it has been if that's the path that we continue to be on. Yeah. Wow. I think that more people than I believe five or ten years ago are talking not only about marriage and birth and having more children. This is certainly a change to me,

Starting point is 00:37:12 even from like my parents' generation where it was just kind of, I don't know, it was just taken for granted that everyone would have one or two kids. But now at least in my circles, we're talking about, okay, should we have one more? Like, let's add to the birth rate. The answer is yes. Yes, let us contribute to this. But also people are talking about the definition of marriage more than they were. I think five years ago, I felt like it was me and like three other people who were like, hey, this still matters. And we should still be talking about a burgothel, but it kind of felt like Republicans just left us on the field when it came to the definition of marriage, which matters if you care about children's rights and all the things that we're talking about. And so what really is

Starting point is 00:37:51 the state of that battle? Is that just something that we have to surrender forever? Oh, I don't think so. I mean, we haven't inherited. We acknowledge the legal reality, right? both as an employer and just an institution of civil society, but that doesn't require us to stop fighting for what's right. And what's right is that marriage very simply is between a man and a woman, period. And so we're going to always fight for that eternal truth. No man, no woman has the ability to change that definition in its reality. Obviously, our Supreme Court and some policymakers think otherwise. We're going to continue working on that. Does that mean that we're going to work on that instead of working on other issues? No. At Heritage, we work on every policy issue. So we're

Starting point is 00:38:38 working on all of these channels. I will just make this observation that in 1973 and 74 and 1979, people had a similar conversation, which is, gosh, do we just have to accept Roe v. Wade? And the answer was no. It took 50 years. And even after it was overturned, we have more abortions annually than we've ever had because of the nature of the radical left. It's a great lesson, the question of Obergefell, it's a great lesson that if we ever have a chance of redefining marriage to its proper definition of being between a man and a woman, that's going to be a matter of hearts and minds. It's going to be so far upstream of politics and policymaking that policymakers in D.C. will see that to be an easy decision. That's where we need to be engaged in our work, and that's why it's so important for us,

Starting point is 00:39:27 for us in public policy to be talking about the most important institution in public policy, in civil society, and that's the family. Yeah. There have been a lot of changes over the past several months at a lot of conservative institutions, but that includes heritage. I think some of those changes have been. I've seen some of those. Yeah, I don't know if you've heard about this, but there were some resignations and some,

Starting point is 00:39:50 you know, difficult conversations that were being had. It seems like both privately and also publicly. So what is the state of heritage, right? now. What are some challenges that you're all facing and how are y'all overcoming those? Sure. We are 100% aligned. So we're at staff of 300 some people and we love everyone who's ever worked at Heritage a long time ago or recently and then they know that that's true. We respect them as persons. And yet, because at Heritage, we have this famous policy called the one voice policy, which means we speak with one voice that we're not going to go ask donors for money

Starting point is 00:40:24 to advocate for one piece of legislation that contradicts another, we obviously, because we want to see our policies come to life, have to have one voice. Not everyone likes that. And you know what, that's okay. But that means you shouldn't be at heritage, because at heritage, we operate with one voice. And that one voice happens to be very representative of normal Americans, because we're not funded by anyone on K Street. Less than one and a half percent of our donations annually come from corporations. Nothing against corporations, but some of the big ones, especially in this town, like to have you as a puppeteer. That's not our game. At Heritage, I can tell you, after being in the news for the last six months, I can report to you not only honestly, but exuberantly, that we're all

Starting point is 00:41:07 very aligned. We have tremendous momentum. We understand the challenges in the movement right in front of us, because we being representative of the people we feel them, but we see great opportunities ahead. We think that if we're focused on we, not just at Heritage, but the movement, on the future of the family, on the future of the dignity of work and free enterprise, on national security, on American heritage and citizenship. And we just talk about those four things, research those four things incessantly, that that is going to be the framework, not just for our own work, not just for the conservative movement, but maybe for the next three or four presidents. Yeah. Because those are common sense ideas. Those are the words that normal Americans are looking for. And so it's our job at Heritage more than anyone else is to bring that to life.

Starting point is 00:41:57 You can probably tell I'm very excited about this. The future is very bright, even with the challenges that we've talked about. Next sponsor is Shopify. So if you've got something to sell, but you're afraid to do it because you're just lost. How are you going to handle shipping? How are you going to build a store? How do you find customers? how do you take payments, all of that stuff that comes along with e-commerce that can be totally

Starting point is 00:42:25 overwhelming and it can be paralyzing. Don't allow those things to paralyze you. You need to use Shopify. That's why millions of people use Shopify. It is the e-commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. Shopify gives you hundreds of ready-to-use templates so you can build a beautiful online store that fits your brand. They've got AI-powered tools that help you write product descriptions, create page headlines, even improve product photos. Plus, you can run email and social campaigns to reach customers whenever they're scrolling. Business moves really fast. You don't want to have to slow down and build all of this yourself.

Starting point is 00:43:00 Just allow Shopify to do it for you. Then you can go back to doing what you love. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash alley. That's Shopify.com slash alley. This is just out of my personal curiosity because I love to learn from leaders. There's a pastor who says that leadership is a commitment to being misunderstood. When you are a leader, there's going to be people that misrepresent and misunderstand you.

Starting point is 00:43:36 Is there one thing in some of the hardship and the difficulty over the past six months that you learned as a leader? I learned a lot of things. I happen to agree with that pastor. I think that that's true. And I learned early on in a previous leadership stop at a small Catholic college that you just, you can't repeat things enough for people to understand. And that's on you, right? Like I'm not blaming colleagues or anything.

Starting point is 00:44:00 Podcasters too. We also have that problem. I noticed that too. Yeah. I learned that in Washington, D.C., tenacity prevails over nonsense as long as you're willing to have it. and as long as it's rooted in what's right. And I can speak on behalf of all of my colleagues, I think in particular our executive team, our senior management,

Starting point is 00:44:31 we knew, in spite of all of the press coverage, most of which was nonsense, some of itself inflicted. I've spoken about that, that we were going to see it through, not because we were heritage pat ourselves on the back, but because everyone who walks into that building is virtuous, everyone who walks into that building is committed to what we're doing. And we were just going to be so zealously focused on the work ahead

Starting point is 00:44:55 that we would render nonsense, absurd, well-paid distraction by people in the city, everything that was being said. And so the greatest compliment that Heritage got over the last six months came from a friend of ours, and he mentioned this to me Friday night. We were just explaining to him and a few hundred donors all of these plans. And he said, you know, Kevin, this is a guy who was a CEO of a major company. He had been through a lot of battles. And he was looking for leadership lessons.

Starting point is 00:45:27 He said, the most impressive thing about heritage is that during all of that, every rank and file employee must have been busting his or her tail. Because for y'all to be talking about all of these plans shows that you weren't distracted. And so for the people who didn't understand, because I didn't speak clearly enough, you know, that's on me. But for the handful of people who have perpetuated the nonsense, that's on them, because not only wasting their and their donor's money, they're standing in the way of doing the everyday Americans work.

Starting point is 00:46:03 And Heritage has proven itself not only to be durable, but to be tenacious. And I guarantee you we're going to win. Okay. Can you tell me about the American Opportunity Agenda that Heritage is working on? This is one of those exciting plans, right? It is. It's one of the things that excites me as I sit here. One of the things, another leadership lesson that I learned along the way is to package things.

Starting point is 00:46:28 What I mean by that is, as an academic, maybe evidenced by this very conversation, I like to get into detailed explanations. But in this town for political consumption, we on the right have to do a better job of messaging. We need to tell better stories. You're excellent at putting a human face on things. at heritage, what we've decided to do with the American Opportunity Agenda is package all of the ideas we have for policymakers in D.C. and at the state level to go sell to the American people. If I had a magic wand as we sat here, I think I would use it this way. I would say every conservative running for office in the midterms would endorse the American Opportunity Agenda. It's sort of like 94's contract with

Starting point is 00:47:11 America, but even more substantive in policy. And the reason, I can say that is this isn't purely heritage idea. This comes from other conservative groups all across this town because heritage loves to work in coalitions. It's economic freedom and prosperity. The four cornerstones that I mentioned, family, national security, work, free enterprise. Also what it means to be an American, American heritage. We happen to know that this is a popular agenda because we focus group and pull these things all the time. But the political consultant class in D.C. hates this idea. Because it's simpler. It's less expensive. And they don't want their client to be beholden to a conservative

Starting point is 00:47:51 agenda. So part of our challenge is to be able to sell it to members of Congress and to the consultant class. But ultimately, it's going to be the agenda because the conservative movement writ large has not just heritage, but many groups, has succeeded in getting upstream of members of Congress. And I say that very respectfully, that whenever we have another conservative Congress, I happen to think that will still be next year. But let's say it's 29 or 31 or 33. This is going to be the agenda. We have to be talking about the things that everyday Americans care about, but to do so in a way that generates a political majority. You know, there's a sentiment out there right now that it's like the midterms don't really matter. Who cares about the midterms? We don't like President Trump anymore.

Starting point is 00:48:35 There's like, you know, you call it like a black pill. There's a lot of people who are just super pessimistic. They think basically the right and the left, Republicans and Democrats are the same. Is that true that the midterms really are inconsequential? Oh, gosh, absolutely not. I know why people are saying that, but you probably know I'm the least likely person to be black billed. I'm with the vice president. Let's not go down that road. I acknowledge why people say that. But let me paint a picture of what happens if good people stay home and don't vote and don't encourage their friends to vote. the left comes into power, they run the house, and within a month, so by February of 2027, the president's impeached. And let's just say, you're a conservative, you voted for Trump three

Starting point is 00:49:17 times, and you're disappointed because of Iran. I disagree with that, but let's just say that you are. You don't want him impeached because then that goes to the Senate, probably still Republican, and we've wasted a year. And we've wasted a year when we need to be implementing the American opportunity agenda or whatever policy issue you're disappointed hasn't happened. Now, am I going to sit here with a straight face and defend the status quo of Washington, D.C.? No. But what I can say to maybe white pill this conversation a little bit is that just in the short time that I've been working in D.C., I have seen the percentage of conservatives in the Republican conference in the House and the Senate dramatically increase. That's a way of saying that we need the midterms

Starting point is 00:50:02 desperately so that we can continue this trajectory. And I think that if that happens, if the trajectory continues to be good, we have a couple of big opportunities to implement good policy. And what we're trying to do at Heritage for people who are feeling blackpilled is to say, there's a plan. Not everyone has signed on to the plan. But if the midterms go well, they will almost have to accept the plan. I saw that James Carville, if people don't know, he's a Democratic strategist. And he spoke at Politicon and he gave some of his own recommendations to the left if they take power. In November, he said, this is what they should do and they shouldn't talk about it. They should just do it because the left actually is kind of good at messaging strategy.

Starting point is 00:50:47 He said, grant statehood to Washington, D.C. and Puerto Rico so that the left can unlock four extra seats in the Senate, pack the U.S. Supreme Court from nine justices to 13, re-opened the U.S.-Mexico border and grant mass amnesty to every single alien currently inside of the United States. His advice, don't run on it, don't talk about it, just do it. And they will. I mean, we were just one Joe Manchin vote away, maybe a Senator Sinema vote away from a couple of those things happening. So that's not a crazy man's theory, although he is a crazy man. The second thing is, look at what Governor Spanberger's done in Virginia.

Starting point is 00:51:22 Yeah. She ran as a moderate. She did exactly what Carville suggested. She ran as a moderate. Now, many of us knew better. and she's governed not just on the left, but on the far, far left, in a state that's truly a purple state. Yeah. And what's going to happen is that actually I think people on the right will overcome being blackpilled because of what Carville said, because of the reality in Virginia.

Starting point is 00:51:45 Because I think Trump, once he brings Iran to a conclusion, will remind people, even if they're a little disappointed in him, of why staying on this policy trajectory is the most important. But it's already the spring. And people start forming these opinions in fairly permanent ways by the summer. So this crowd has a lot of work to do, which is why Heritage is being very aggressive about it. Last sponsor for the day is Alliance Defending Freedom. America is celebrating 250 years of freedom this year. And Alliance Defending Freedom is asking you to join them in prayer just for five days this year. If you go to join ADF.com slash Ali, sign the commitment to sign up to pray.

Starting point is 00:52:29 I'm going to be praying along with them, praying that God would bring. our nation to repentance, that we would humble ourselves, that we would pray to him, that we would seek wisdom, that Christians would be bold, courageous, and clear, and that the Lord would just give us the mercy and the guidance that we desperately need, especially our nation's leaders, no matter what side of the aisle. They're on. ADF works not only in America, but all around the world to protect religious liberty, free speech rights, to protect the sanctity of life, and to protect the rights of women and girls. And so just join them in prayer. I'm going to join ADF.com slash Alley or text Alley to 838A488. That's join ADF.com slash Alley or text Alley to

Starting point is 00:53:11 A33848. Messaging is so important. If I could waive my magic one, there's a lot of things that I would change, but one of them would certainly be to like get a good publicist for Republicans and just, yeah, we have a little bit of a hard time telling our own stories and representing in a human way why conservative policy is actually better for your kids and your grandkids and your neighbors and the poor and all of these people that you really care about, the progressive policies aren't actually the ones that are helping. They're hurting those groups. And yeah, Heritage is doing a lot to change that messaging, and that really makes me happy. That's one of my biggest

Starting point is 00:53:55 peeves with politics, is that some of the best people have the worst messaging and we need help with it. No, it's so true. I was just doing a guest lecture for some students in the Northeast, And they said, Dr. Roberts, why don't you like the term think tank? That's what you run. I said, we are that. But we don't like that phrase at Heritage because it's so passive. And it denies all of these things we're doing upstream, right? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:54:18 Which is to help form public opinion. Yeah, that is so true. Okay, give us one last call. The normal American mom is listening. She's like, okay, I can't vote until November. What do I do right now to help make my community better and help push some of these values that we're talking about? Well, I'll be abusive and say two things because it's the spring.

Starting point is 00:54:37 Depending on the state where that mom is, the state legislature might still be in session and no doubt there could be some good work there. If you need some help there, check us out at heritage action.com. But the second thing is start as local as you can. For my wife, it was a homeowners association. I mean, we're talking the local of locals. Why? Because it prevented them assessing ridiculous amounts of money and probably going woke. It sounds silly to say unless you've existed in an HOA.

Starting point is 00:55:04 But for a lot of suburban moms, think about just attending a school board meeting or a city council meeting or a county commission meeting. Even if your kids don't go to public school. Oh, absolutely. It's even more powerful if they don't because you're saying I care so deeply, not just as a taxpayer, but as a fellow American for other people's kids. This ought to be the affection we have for one another. Yeah. But I will often hear, well, I'm too busy. Oh, I'll never understand what they're saying, hogwash.

Starting point is 00:55:31 you're an American mom living in the suburbs. You can do this. If you need some guidance on how to do that, we're happy to help. There are plenty of groups that are. This is the point. Just show up somewhere where elected officials are meeting and your mere presence. Your mere presence, especially if it's sustained and you have a few friends who go with you, will change their behavior. This is still America.

Starting point is 00:55:54 Black pilling is a sin. That's my message. Despair is a sin. And we are called in Jeremiah 29-11 to seek the welfare. of the city in which we've been placed. The Jewish exiles were called to that. Christians are exiles in this world. And that doesn't always look how it looks in America.

Starting point is 00:56:10 If you are a Christian in China, if you're a Christian in Lebanon, that looks different. But we have the privilege of living here, where we do have the freedom to exercise our voice and to exercise or vote and to make better the community in which God has providentially placed us. Heritage Action.com, right? Can give some action steps, help you connect

Starting point is 00:56:27 to your local legislator. My dad is always talking about, get involved locally. It's not just DC that matters, and y'all are so good at helping us do that. So thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1351 | We Need This Wake-Up Call Before the Midterms | Kevin Roberts

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.