Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1353 | Fake Aliens, False Prophets & Charismatic Cover-Up Culture | Mike Winger

Episode Date: May 29, 2026

Allie sits down with Bible teacher Mike Winger to break down the viral “alien disclosure” scandal that rocked Christian circles. A group of charismatic pastors, including Perry Stone, claimed the government held a secret meeting warning religious leaders about impending UFO revelations involving reptilian beings, a fake rapture, and a massive deception that would cause the Great Falling Away — claims that quickly spread across social media before unraveling. Mike explains how the story originated, why it went viral, who was actually in the meeting, and how several pastors walked back their dramatic assertions after pushback and clarifications from Rep. Eric Burlison (R-Mo.). The conversation also dives into the larger issue of cover-up culture in the church, Mike’s work exposing abuse, and deception in ministry. Share the Arrows 2026 is on October 10 in Dallas, Texas! Tickets are on sale now at: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://sharethearrows.com⁠⁠⁠ Share the Arrows is sponsored by: A'del Natural Cosmetics: AdelNaturalCosmetics.com Range Leather: RangeLeather.com/ALLIE We Heart Nutrition: WeHeartNutrition.com Buy Allie's book "Toxic Empathy: How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion": ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.toxicempathy.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ – Timecodes 0:00 Introduction 1:20 The Viral UAP “Disclosure” to Pastors 15:43 Cover-Up in the Charismatic Church 55:31 Combating False Prophets – Today's Sponsors: Hillsdale College | Go right now to ⁠⁠hillsdale.edu/relatable⁠⁠ to enroll. There’s no cost, and it’s easy to get started. We Heart Nutrition | Check out We Heart Nutrition at ⁠⁠⁠WeHeartNutrition.com⁠⁠⁠ and use the code ALLIE for 20% off. A'del | Visit AdelNaturalCosmetics.com and enter promo code ALLIE for 25% off your first-time purchase. Good Ranchers | To support a company that honors America’s past, present, and future, visit ⁠GoodRanchers.com⁠ today. When you start your plan, you’ll get to pick a free meat that will be included in every order for life, and you’ll get $25 off your first order using my exclusive code, ALLIE. Paleovalley | Right now, you can get 15% off your first order at paleovalley.com with code ALLIE. Episodes You May Like: Ep 1190 | Josh Buice & G3’s Slander Scandal https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1190-josh-buice-g3s-slander-scandal/id1359249098?i=1000708650226 Ep 607 | John MacArthur, Hillsong Documentary & SBC Drama | Guest: Megan Basham https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-607-john-macarthur-hillsong-documentary-sbc-drama/id1359249098?i=1000558899144 --- ► Buy Allie's book, "You're Not Enough (and That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love": https://alliebethstuckey.com/book ► Subscribe to the podcast: iTunes: https://apple.co/2UVssnP Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2FwkXxj ► Connect with Allie on social media: https://twitter.com/conservmillen https://www.instagram.com/alliebstuckey/ https://facebook.com/allieBlazeTV/ ► Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

fake alien pastor government meetings, Bethel Church cover-up culture. Mike Winger is here today uncovering it all. He's got a lot of really troubling information about what is going on in the leadership in the charismatic movement and why we, whether you are charismatic or not, should really care. We've got all of this and more on today's episode of Relatable. Mike, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. Could you first tell us who you are and what you do?

Oh, well, my name is Mike Winger, and I'm like a Bible teacher guy that went on YouTube, and it just, the stuff kept growing and reaching more people. And my ministry has also been expanding. My goal is to help people learn to think biblically about everything, but I tend to take on passion projects. And so I did like a two-year study of the topic of women in ministry, or I've done everything the Bible says about divorce and remarriage or book studies. And it's all free content.

But I'm also right now in the middle of a series of videos. on what I call cover-up culture inside of, in particular the charismatic church, although it does exist elsewhere, trying to expose bad guys and the systems that keep them in place. Can we talk about your most recent video? This video is about disclosure. It's about Perry Stone. Can you tell us who Perry Stone is? Oh, well, Perry Stone, this is about all the alien stuff, right?

Perry Stone made a video about how he heard. about a secret meeting where the government government people were were informing pastors ahead of these coming disclosures about aliens and UFOs and UAPs or whatever and I've had to add UAP to my vocabulary now so this was so hyped up by him it was very misleading you know the fact that there's groups of people meeting to talk about their beliefs about aliens or the government that's not new at all that's been going on for quite a long time but the idea that government officials were there and that they were informing these pastors so that the pastors could help the people because the government was about to tell us stuff that was so wild.

They're going to confirm lizard beings, lizard-y alien being type things, that it went viral. It went viral. It goes all over the place. And then pastors start showing it, I was in the meeting. It's true. And they were, I think, just hungry for views and hungry for attention. These guys rode this thing into a viral embarrassment to the body of Christ. Alan DeDio was one of them.

Mike Signorelli was one of them. Joseph Zee was one of them. Larry Racklin was another one. These are all pastors who got a spotlight time for it. And they absolutely misled people into thinking that they had some sort of inside government, government approved inside information. And it was just smoke and mirrors, the whole thing. What were they saying?

And how was it proven to be untrue? Well, initially, they're saying things like the government people were there, and they're giving us classified info. Okay, those are like the two pieces that probably grabbed people the most. Later on, when they were confronted more about this, so sorry, let me back up. Let me clarify for just a second. So Perry Stone, is he just a YouTuber?

He's just someone who had this information because he's friends with Paula White, who is part of the Trump administration, and he put out this video saying, I've got inside information. There's alien conversations going on with pastors and government officials, and you're about to be told some crazy things. These pastors go out, say, yeah, I was part of that meeting. that really did happen, start saying all of this stuff that supposedly the government had told them. So that's, that was the timeline. That's how it all happened. And that's who Perry Stone is, right?

Pretty much. Yeah, I would just add that Perry Stone is also part of cover-up culture in that he was sexually preying upon women in his own ministry. And when multiple witnesses came forward and people tried to confront him about it, he threatened to kill himself. He said his wife would leave him. And This is all on tape and then said that he would destroy his own ministry if they tried to blow this up or tell people about it. But he's still going. He's still going because there's no stopping these guys in this movement because of the culture of cover up. But yeah, it's that same guy who has a bunch of other issues. Weird.

He's a he's not a safe dude, spiritually speaking. Okay. So he's like a prophecy guy. So he's got he's got his own ministry, Perry Stone Ministries, where he talks. about like his prophecy is breaking the apocalypse code. He's got like a conference with Jonathan Khan and some other people about prophecy, a lot about the end times, all of that kind of stuff. So he was the guy who came out and said alien conversations are going on and he's buddies with Paula White, right? Yeah, it's part of that whole White House.

faith department. He's part of that. And yeah, so he comes out. He makes these wild claims. And then other guys, you know, that got a lot of interest because of the Paula White connection probably. But then these other pastors confirm it. Hey, I was there too. Everything he's saying is true. That's initial claims from Alan Didio. He's saying that what Perry said is true. And he claimed government was there. They're disclosing information to pastors. It's including information about, like, aliens and lizard-like beings. You know, you know what we're talking about. We're talking about all those viral, weird videos. They're like, it's a lizard person.

And so that was not true. Now, later, after it went viral, guys like Alan Didio, in particular, he was the one who did it the most. He's a pastor, a charismatic pastor. He says, we never said it was, they were government workers. We never said that. And now they're gaslighting everybody and lying about it. And so I made a little video saying, hey, guys, I think there's, there's nothing to this. I don't think government was really there, just disregarded.

And then basically this led to me having to investigate more because they were claiming they hadn't said what they did say. So I went ahead and pulled clips together and just made the case and presented the evidence because I don't want people to be misled, especially by Christian leaders in the public space. I think it's an embarrassment to Christianity. And if we don't call it out, then it's going to be like CNN that calls it out. And then everybody looks like they're cooks instead of just the cooks.

So who were the pastors meeting with? What was the truth? They were meeting with just private Christians who they say are intelligence operators. They like to use that phrase, but they don't actually work for any government agency or any sort of government at all. They're private Christians who have theories based upon publicly accessible information, stuff that's not classified. It's all been declassified info for years. and they just go and they try to put it together in a way that they think tells a story

that they believe is true. And the story they believe is true, interestingly enough, is that the government's going to affirm aliens do exist, and they're going to couple this with propaganda from the government itself to say Christianity's false. And Larry Raglan, one of the guys that was there, he said,

government will soon, there will soon be an alien in the sky who will be a false Jesus, and there'll be a false rapture event, and they're going to use this to deceive Christians around the world. And I think most believers hear that and they go, that guy needs help, right? We don't want him propped up as I have secret info from the government because he doesn't. This was deception.

These are cooks. These men are cooks. Let's not have them spearhead because this is what they did. They tried to position themselves as the government has informed us of what's really coming, guys. You need to listen to us. We will be your guides. We'll be your thought leaders through this turbulent time of disclosure. And I was like, this is going to hurt a lot of people.

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off your first time purchase. Adel Natural Cosmetics.com code Alley. Man, I remember back in 2020, and I feel like in moments of chaos and moments of distress, economic distress, worldwide turmoil, people look to these so-called profits to try to get some clarity. People want to know what's going on. You feel like you can't trust the media. You feel like you can't trust the government. There's definitely a new narrative going on right now that, you know, even Donald Trump, he's just as corrupted, is the Bidens, is anyone else. So officially can trust absolutely no one. So you look to these alternative voices who claim to have a clear and direct line to God and from God, who are going to tell you not only what's going to happen in the future, but what's really going

on. People aren't satisfied. Some people are not satisfied with just reading scripture and saying, okay, well, like, Jesus wins in the end. I don't know everything that's going to happen until then, but I know my marching orders and I'm going to do that. People find that to be boring or they find that to be demoralizing. And so I feel like they look for something else. And I remember during COVID, there was a lot of so-called Facebook prophecy going on then. I remember this one particular person.

And I was like, I remember watching this. Someone who does not ever buy any of this stuff or ever think it's believable. I watched this guy and he was talking about how he had some kind of vision that in, this was maybe like May of 2020, but in September, he saw these two different armies, these red armies. And now he realizes one represented China, one represented Russia. And they were basically going to take the country by storm and all of this stuff. And honestly, I mean, I never believed any of it.

But I was watching. I'm like, I could totally. see why this is compelling. In this state of chaos that we have right now, you kind of feel like anything could happen. And we are so vulnerable. We had COVID. We had BLM. We had all of this stuff going on. We had the election. I'm like, we do feel like, oh my gosh, anyone could take over at any time. 2020 felt like the end of the world for a lot of people. And right now, with everything going on with Iran, in Israel, infighting here, so much fracturing, there's a lot of people again, economic distress, wondering, okay, what's really going on? And so they look to things like this.

It's exciting to them. It gives them, they feel some kind of clarity. But unfortunately, you have people like this who are willing to cash in on that distress and that confusion and that chaos and present a possible alternative underground narrative of what's really going on. So, yeah, beware. you wear, especially people on Facebook, because it seems to especially thrive there. Yeah. I mean, we crave a narrative that explains what's going on. We're nervous because we see bad news and intimidating things are happening.

Yeah. And so we're looking for someone we can trust. And our trust in institutions and stuff has been damaged and justifiably. But what's weird to me is to boomerang and go, man, I blindly trusted government. I'm now going to blindly trust this podcaster over here. and say, yeah, I talk, I know some people, what they have is they have one news source for everything. They just have one person that they trust. And if that person's off, you can be in a lot of trouble.

And the Bible kind of helps us with this. It says to test all things, hold fast to that, which is true. So I have to test even those people that are giving me their narrative. I have to test that. I can't just become sort of devotionally committed to this individual as my source of truth. I need to test all things. How does this story fit into cover-up culture? Because some people might think that there are two different things.

You're talking about cover-up culture within the charismatic church specifically, maybe American Christian culture in general. And then this strange UFO thing. Do they go together? Well, I think so, too. I do think they go together. It goes together in the sense of there being no true accountability for leaders in the movement.

So Alan Didio, for example, he lied multiple times. I've documented it. I've got the evidence. I've presented a video. And he's one of the guys. who helped really push forward this viral moment that was manufactured. And there is, to my knowledge, zero accountability from his own leadership on this. Zero accountability.

There's nobody holding him to task. He's able to just immediately go public in his church. I mean, there could be hundreds of people or however many people that are there and put videos online, just gaslighting the world about these things. What we need in churches is there's enough men of integrity in the leadership so that when When one of your leaders goes out and publicly lies to the world, you hold his feet to the fire and you go, you need to deal with this. We're not going to gaslight people.

We're not going to just hold up your reputation no matter what. Because what he does is he goes out and he attacks any witnesses who'd speak against him. And anybody in his church who says, hey, pastor, you lied to everybody. Like that really hurts the name of Christ. And they're the ones that are demonic. Oh, you've got a divisive spirit. You've got the spirit of Jezebel. Or you're an accuser of the brethren.

And so this is all connected because it's the same thing. the same machinations inside of a ministry that allow someone to get away from sexual, get away with sexual predations or with adultery or with all kinds of other stuff, manipulation and abuse of money, because the leader is seen as the ministry. The leader is seen as the most important person in the church. And that right there, I think is inappropriate. I think as Christians, my series of videos on this are based on the idea that leaders aren't more important than normal people. Just that one principle, if we can get that back in place. You know, Jesus laid his life down for the sheep. He calls the apostles to lay their lives down for others. Paul, he's like, I should be

the one laboring and suffering for you, but cover up culture reverses this. And the leader is the elite who lives in the most like glory and honor realm, whereas the individuals, they're disposable. even if he hurts or wounds them, they should just go somewhere else. And that snowballs into all kinds of atrocious abuse situations. When it comes to cover up culture and what you've been uncovering there, specifically right now in the charismatic church, before we get into what you have actually uncovered about cover up culture, I'm curious why. Why the subject? What prompted you to dig further into this? Because it could have been a lot easier not to.

A lot easier. The amount of work these videos take is much more than what I could do otherwise. But well, here's the thing. You know this. You go online. I was a youth pastor for 14 years in a local church. You know, you meet the needs of the students you've got right in front of you or you meet the needs of the congregation in front of you. But you go online. You start reaching people around the world and you pay attention to their needs. At least this is what I try to do. What are the needs of the people that I actually can impact? in touch. And so they've been, they were asking me, can you please cover this? Can you please talk about this? And over the years, I would do something like on the Passion Translation. Hey, Mike, the Passion translation, is this legit? Like my pastor's saying, we should all read it. Our church just switched

over to this translation. Bill Johnson says that it's the best thing ever. So I look into it and I find problems and I address them to try to help the people that are asking me questions. And this sort of led to a snowball effect where it was like a lot of the issues that people are sent, me and asking me to help them with are connected to the same movement. And then I found out about cover up in a particular situation. So there's a guy named Sean Bowles, right? This guy was the rising star in the charismatic church. He is considered like the prophet who will take us to the next level. And they have prophecies about what the next level is and everything. It's a big machine, all that's going on here. And this guy, Sean Bowles, he was like the most prolific prophet that they had ever had

around. And he's going around and he knows your birthday and he knows your last name. And he's He knows your dog's name. He knows your grandmother passed away six months ago. And he just gets this information, it seems, from God directly. But it turns out this guy was going around digging up people's information up on Facebook and just making stuff up, getting propped up in the movement, making it look like there was a revival that wasn't real and all those other stuff. And it also turns out when I looked into just, I'm just going to expose this guy because the leaders don't seem like they want to do it. And people who follow me also are aware of this guy.

I want to help them. And it turns out that there was like a dark underbelly of all kinds of other stuff going on. And it wasn't just with Sean and his perverse behaviors towards other people like sexual, even illegal stuff. But also with leaders that knew about it and didn't stop the man. And then I found it was just a network of a whole bunch of others as well. I called it cover up culture because there's like systems in place. I know this sounds wild for me to say this.

The guy who's like, I'm not really into conspiracy theories. You know, it's not a conspiracy so much as it is just. moral compromise in the pursuit of revival, which allows, like, evil men to stand up and lead the church. And so I started to uncover it. And once I made like one video, even just a post online, hey, I think it was when I said, if you've been threatened with lawsuits by church leadership in a way that's meant to keep you silent and keep you from telling the truth and protecting people, reach out to me, I want to help you. And I just start getting all these witnesses flooding in. And normally I'm just teaching through scripture. Well, right now I decided to highlight one

verse in particular, 1 Timothy 520. It says that the elders who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all that the rest also may fear. And it's the one thing that will fix and undo the damage of what I'm calling cover-up culture. And so all these witnesses start coming to me. I'm interviewing people for months. I'm gathering all kinds of evidence. And the trust I've built as a Bible teacher made them feel that they could, I think, give me this information. I'm not just like a tabloid reporter or something like that. And so I've been producing video content, you know, one situation after another to try

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They donate a percentage of every sale to pregnancy centers across the country. But I would not be using these supplements if they did not really work. If they didn't leave me feeling nourished and making sure that my body is working exactly how it should. So I can be a good mom to my kid. can have the energy that I need to be the best that I can, even for you guys every day. And they helped me do that by making really good supplements. Go to weheartnutrition.com. Use code Ali for an extra 20% off. That's weheartnutrition.com code alley. So it doesn't sound like, but you correct me if I'm wrong, you weren't necessarily setting out to expose the charismatic

Church or exposed leadership within the charismatic church. It started with this one person who happened to be charismatic, who was basically committing fraud. He was pretending like he knew all these things about people, but he was making stuff up. He was digging it, digging through Facebook, finding the stuff to make it seem like he had some special revelation from God. Then when you dug more into Sean Bowles,

you found out that he was kind of being propped up and helped by other leaders within the charismatic church. Is that right? Absolutely, that's right. And when I say other leaders, I mean, Bill Johnson of Bethel is probably the most influential charismatic pastor in the English-speaking world. He, you know, Bethel sort of took over where Vineyard left off. The momentum that Hillsong once had, Bethel kind of absorbed that as well. So they've got the music thing and then they've got like the spiritual gift stuff that they do. They train others on how to prophesy.

People go to their schools and then they get trained up on how to do it, the Bible. Bethel way, how to do church Bethel's way, and then they go out into churches around the world, and they sometimes aggressively try to convert those churches into Bethel-style ministry in the pursuit of revival. And when I found out that Shambles was not only just a bad egg in the midst, but that it was known early on, that warnings were given. Evidence was seen, and it was ignored, and then publicly they lied about it. I mean, publicly, they posted public statements that were deceptive, misleading, and

And by they, you mean Bethel? By they, I mean Bethel. I mean Bethel leadership. Bethel and Bill Johnson. So was Sean Bowles, for those who don't know, he was connected to Bethel. He had gone to the seminary. Was he a leader in Bethel's Church? Well, so Sean was never officially on their staff.

That's not, and you have to understand in the charismatic world how these networks actually functioned. They're very much not a bunch of people under the same umbrella. there are a bunch of people who have like trust. They join hands and there's trust between them. And when one guy props up another guy, then he gains from that following. So what Bill Johnson did, I'll just give one example, was Bill Johnson put shambles on stage at an event called Azusa Now.

And this was, was it 2019? No, no, 16, excuse me, 2016, Azusa Now. This event in a stadium just packed with, I don't know what it was, 60,000 people, something. And it was broadcast online. It was seen by millions. And this became the moment where Sean Bowles went from a profit in the movement to like the profit in the movement worldwide. And Bill puts him on stage and he goes, our dear friend, one of our most trusted friends,

Sean Bowles. And he's presenting him as if you trust me, Bill Johnson, you should trust Sean Bowles. Now, that was not true. He was actively being perverse and sexually harassing people at the time. actively looking up on social media. Here's one little tiny tibbid of what happened. Around this same time, there was a guy within the ministry at Bethel who had raised red flags and he goes, look, here's Sean's words and here's Facebook. The guy's getting it off Facebook. He meets with two different leaders. One of them is a guy on staff who up until recently was the head of their

prophetic, all their prophetic stuff, a guy named Ben Armstrong who is now in trouble for his own sexual abuse of people. And he tells Ben Armstrong about Sean. Bulls and the guy Ben Armstrong just ghost him never talks to him again he won't reply to his email he goes send me the document then he just doesn't ever speak to him about this issue again instead this weirdo I know this is getting in the weeds but this weirdo guy named Paul Kane who was known for being a sexual predator towards men he would get men in his in his ministry who struggle with same-sex attraction and he would work them down into doing inappropriate things and this is this was going on for decades this guy Paul Kane

swoops in and starts harassing this young man who's trying to bring accountability and asking Bethel leadership for help. And there's stories like this that just, here's what happened. It just blew up. I just, I come to find out more about Mike Bickle, leader of the IHot movement and him sexually preying upon women for decades and using his fake prophecies to do it. I find out about Bob Jones. But let me let me back up and give you guys this. If you don't know the charismatic movement, okay, you have you know, you know. Charismatics most likely. You know people that are part of that.

They know these names even if you don't. And if you go back in time a little ways, in the 1980s and early 90s, Vineyard is taking off as a church. And, you know, John Wimbers, highly respected, but he's really like a spearhead for the charismatic movement at this point. People might not know. What is Vineyard? Is Vineyard just charismatic church?

Vineyard is, yeah, they're a charismatic church. And also all of these churches have their own music thing. It's very important that they all have their own interesting, like their own music sort of industry impact. So Vineyard Music in the 70s. Yeah, most people know Bethel Music. Right. Yeah, you know Bethel Music now.

If you knew, if you were paying attention in the 90s, you would have known Vineyard music. Yeah, if you were paying attention in the 70s, you would have known, you know, Calvi Chapel's music stuff that they were doing. So, yeah, it's just shifted. But, but yeah, so Vineyard gets partnered with these Kansas City prophets and they're pushing this like, we're bringing the next. of the work of the Holy Spirit to the church.

This is where revival is. Come to our events. But it turns out that all these Kansas City prophets are corrupt men. They're just many over and over faking prophecies. It's built on lies. Now, I won't get into all the details of those guys, but it's not hard to find and it's relatively well known. But what happened in more recent times is Bill Johnson took up that mantle.

And they borrowed from those guys and they've endorsed those guys. And then they've also endorsed other guys. And basically, oh, Ali, forgive me if I'm talking too much about this. But it's so pervasive the amount of fake prophecy, fake miracles, and predations coming from supposed spiritual trusted leaders. It was so pervasive that I stopped what was a verse by verse study through Hebrews so I could do an entire series on the cover-up culture, hoping that I can provoke grassroots change, not to destroy charismatic churches, but to bring transformation from within.

Because if people just know what's going on, I think that they'll stop it. Okay. Can you give us an example of some of these fake prophecies? Because this is a hot topic that there are a lot of people who believe that you can be a prophet and just get it right sometimes and that it's really not that big of a deal if someone is not correct. They say they're a prophet from God. They say something doesn't come true.

That's okay. Just move on to the next one. But what is this that's going on? These people using fake prophecies basically as a way to prop up their own authority and then use that authority to intimidate and cover up whatever's going on either underneath them or with their friends. Yeah, I think you have to understand what the goal of it all is. Revival is the goal. Like Bill Johnson says revival at any cost. And unfortunately, what we now know and see about Bill Johnson is that any cost is not an exaggeration.

any cost, the cost of truth, the cost of righteousness, cost of goodness. So if revival's the goal, we want to be in a movement that we feel is having amazing, amazing things happen. You know, God is working in our group more than anywhere else. We're taking Christians to the next level. And that has been the common theme amongst all of these groups. They all have what we call revival culture. So we're bringing the transformation of the church into the new age of the work of the spirit. And so there's theological stuff connected to the man.

Son's of God in the Lateran movement, which are not biblical teachings. But I'll set that aside for now and say, revival culture is the obsession. So if you want to have revival culture and you need to be, the way in which you do revival culture isn't, it's by comparison. It's our church has more going on than the churches down the street. That's how you do it. Now, how do you do that if the Holy Spirit is not actually working in men and women

to do miracles and signs and wonders in a way that's bigger than, your neighbor down the street, you fake it. And that's what the movement ends up needing to achieve that agenda of revival culture. And so how do you fake it? Well, you do things like, you have people pretend they're healed when they're not, and you have it built into your teachings.

You're claiming it by faith. So Bill Johnson will get on stage, and this to me is a huge red flag. He'll get on stage and he'll say, God's healing someone of kidney issues right now. Anybody, if you have kidney issues and God's healing you, raise your hand. Now, think about psychologically what this does in a movement.

When you are the one to determine your healing, and coupled with that as a teaching about faith, that by faith you have to grab the thing that God's doing. And so then you raise your hand because you're trying to grab that thing. You know you want kidney healing. So you raise your hand. But the message that goes out to the world, as this is broadcast around, is that at Bethel, 12 people got healed of kidney issues that day. And of course, they may not have been healed.

And so you have teachings about how you have to keep your healing and how maybe you've lost your healing. And so the way healing is handled is not in a biblical fashion. It's in a way that makes it so. For the cameras, there's lots of healing. But on the ground in reality, there's maybe not. And that is the same with the prophecy stuff. It can happen the same way. So here's how it used to happen back in the day.

Guys like Paul Kane, for instance, who I mentioned earlier, he would go and he would talk to the pastor before he went to a church, visiting a church as a prophet. and he would ask the pastor questions. Tell me about your staff. Tell me about your church struggles. What's going on? Tell me about the congregation. Like, what can I? I want to pray for them.

And he would gather data about the congregants. Oh, there's a grandma. Her name is Eunice. She just lost her grandson. And she's grieving. And he's like, log that away. He's going to use that when he goes on stage. And this is where the pastor then is a, sadly, a passive participant.

Because when the guy gets up on stage and he uses this inside info, Because of the culture of the movement, he'll never tell anyone. Yeah, I told him all that. He'll just be quiet about it. Because you know what happens? Next Sunday, after the prophet showed up and he called out people's info on stage, there's like twice as many people at that church the next day. Because it's revival culture.

You've got to feed the engine. And the only way to make yourself more spiritual than the church next door is ultimately, if it's not the real work of the spirit, is to fake it. So this has been shopped out by Bethel. Bethel Church has been giving like coaching and teaching on. how to do revival and how it can happen. And in that teaching is let's let's not publicly test prophecy. Let's not have real accountability when people prophetically get stuff wrong. And let's proclaim things. Bill even has a teaching. Ali, you have a theological mind. What do you think of this?

Bill Johnson has a teaching that if you prophesy, you can sometimes prophesy things God is not saying and God will follow your lead and he will then make it a reality because you declared it. This, to my mind, explodes when I hear this. When I hear this, my mind explodes because scripture says that prophecy never comes by the will of man, right? But men move by the Holy Spirit. That's first Peter. So Bill's saying, you move the Holy Spirit. It comes from you and your will, and then God responds to it.

These kinds of teachings are like, it's like when you're mixing chemicals in your kitchen and you accidentally make mustard gas. This is so dangerous to do this sort of stuff. And it's built into the culture. Yeah, I think he's probably taking Jesus' words out of context that if you have enough faith, you can say to this mountain move and it will move. That's what I'm assuming. Maybe he's trying to base that on and maybe I'm giving him too much credit that he's even attempting to use scripture.

Of course, we know that that's not what God is saying. That's not what Jesus is directing us to do to give God orders and God is going to obey us. You're right. That's not the function of the Holy Spirit. That's not the power of God. That's not something that we see happen in Scripture. But I've heard him say a lot of cuckoo things over the years. A lot of very strange and odd things about the nature of the Holy Spirit and signs and wonders in heaven. So it doesn't really surprise me. But it does really shed light. I talk a lot about just how the secular new age culture, I think, can unknowingly affect people's theology. I just did an episode about a lot of women believing on TikTok and Instagram that they need to pray to God for a sign, like a bluebird

landing on their windowsill or something like that. And to show that God loves you or that he wants you to write a book. He wants you to go a certain direction. And on the one hand, I'm like, I'm sure that that is just being influenced by kind of this like medium new age guru stuff that we see online. But I think it is finding a home. And a lot of charismatic movement. I think it finds a home in a lot of the teaching of what you're talking about, the syncretism of wedding biblical theology and new age, demanding that God show up in a certain particular spectacular way to prove himself to us. And so even as you're talking, it's kind of illuminating that connection for me of like, oh, this might be where a lot of that confusion is

coming from with me at the center and God kind of orbiting around me. and doing what I say and how I say it. All right, y'all, let me tell you about Paleo Valley. If you're going on road trips this summer, maybe you're flying and you don't want all that airport junk food or the convenience store junk food, no hate on Buckees, they're awesome. But you might need to pack you some snacks if you want to make sure that they are really healthy. And that is why I recommend these 100% grass-fed beef sticks from Paleo Valley.

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go to paleovalley.com, use code alley, get 15% off your first order. PaleoValley.com code Alley. It's interesting you bring up the new age thing because this was a while ago. People had asked me cover this book, Physics of Heaven, Mike. Can you give us like a biblical analysis of this book? Right. Which I think is a great thing to do. I think it helps people learn to think biblically about everything,

which is the whole agenda of my ministry. So I look into Physics of Heaven and it was one of the worst books I've ever seen. And it's a book that have been promoted by Bethel that have been shared with students, The author, Judy Franklin, is Bill Johnson's assistant for decades. It's endorsed by Bill. It's endorsed by leaders at Bethel. A bunch of leaders at Bethel have endorsed the book. They've even contributed to chapters in the book.

And it is syncretism, which means we're going to take new age and we're going to merge it into Christianity. And the things, I'll just give you a couple little points they've shared in that book. They were saying, don't be afraid of going into the new age to learn from them because the Holy Spirit will protect you. Whereas Deuteronomy, God warns the Israelites, like, do not look and inquire what these pagans have done. And then we'll use that in our worship of God. Like don't even, this is syncretism. This Bible's very clear. This is like literally why the Israelites get deported out of Jerusalem, out of the promised land, because they do this.

And they also say it is our goal to go into the new age and restore and rescue things that Satan has stolen from the church. this is an explicit teaching coming from their movement, that you're actually going to intentionally merge Christianity with New Age practices and beliefs. And when I studied this book, The Physics of Heaven, and then I did a video about it, I was blown away because I had been critical somewhat of Bethel, but I try to only be as critical as I can justify in the moment. And I know there might be more worse stuff, but I don't know it. So I'm only going to talk about what I know. Well, this took it to the next level. This is when I went, oh my goodness, Bethel, you are, you're going to ruin souls. You're going to ruin souls when you do this stuff. And Bethel's response, an example of cover-up culture,

they pulled the book quietly from their bookstores. They minimized what they had done with it. And they said, when people inquired, they said, well, we, we removed the book because it had some stuff we didn't agree with in it. What stuff? What stuff did you not agree with? It was, it was just the typical, like, HR response to something that's actually a deeply, important and troubling spiritual issue. And it didn't protect their people. It tried to protect their reputation. And this is, can I say, this is what they did with Sean Bowles. When Sean Bulls first started getting exposed for faking prophecy. Now, his sexual predations, that's something that really came out because I interviewed the victims and I shared it in my video on the topic.

But his fake prophecy, there was a mountain of evidence. And they made a public statement after it just first started coming out and it was basically saying, eh, who knows what the truth is we don't really know if it's true and yet I have private text messages of Bethel leadership saying that they do know it's true and they're just trying to save the prophetic movement by not letting people understand how bad things really are and that's been the nature of the cover-up culture is we do bad things or we support bad things we fail to protect people and when it gets looks like it's gonna get exposed we deceive we manipulate and we don't change the culture

that is allowing these guys to rise up. And that's why there's just sexual predator after sexual predator after sexual predator. These fake prophets don't stop at faking prophecy. Imagine if you're willing to lie in God's name to blaspheme God, manipulate and abuse the people like that, you're not going to be this like safe person to be around in the rest of your life. It's just not going to be the way it is. They're willing to. It sounds like, you know, like taking physics of heaven out of the bookstore.

I see this a lot with people who. are extremely audacious when it comes to lies, manipulation, or whatever, in order to keep up a pretense of humility before God, they will recant or seemingly repent enough to be able to show someone, yeah, we'll take correction. Look, we'll take correction. We heard someone say this. We looked into it.

We went through the process. Now, would someone who is covering something up have done that? And that's kind of like their proof that, see, I really am honest. You just kind of repent just enough, seemingly repent just enough so that you can keep going. And so that you can use that as evidence that you're not, you know, you're not bad. You're not doing anything. I see that a lot, even with podcasters and things like that.

It's just a way to kind of save face for a second so you can keep doing what you're doing. You hit the nail on the head. That's exactly what we're seeing, unfortunately, with Bethel. Now, I did it, so I did the six hour, almost six hour video on shambles, but it wasn't just shambles. I interviewed witnesses for months, I'm telling you. And I incorporated a whole bunch of different situations because my agenda was to show how big the problem is so that hopefully grassroots people will go, we won't stand for this anymore. We are Christians. We're to hold people to a higher standard.

We do have to call out our own or else we have no integrity and voice to call out others. And this, that's a whole different subject, which makes you think about the political Christians right now. You guys are going to have no moral grounding to have any effect if you won't call out your own. But anyways, the situation with Bethel is it's so much worse than the way they would make it sound. And my video came out and I showed so many things, such darkness, such duplicity from leadership, public statements of this, private of this. Like, for instance, Bill Johnson, he not only knew that Sean was faking prophecy, or he at least, let's put it this way, he had. all the evidence. And I mean a mountain of evidence. Like now they've admitted it, by the way. They've admitted it publicly after I made it public. But they had that at that mountain of

evidence that he'd be faking prophecy and all this stuff. Then Bill Johnson had a one-on-one meeting in his office with one of the victims of Sean Bowles. And Sean Bowles did sexually explicit inappropriate things to this person. And he said, I talked to this guy, okay? I know this man. And he tells me in the call with, or the meeting rather, with Bill Johnson, he felt loved and he felt cared for and it was really healing for him and he was like, I'm so glad I got to do that. A couple months later, Bill Johnson goes on TBN and he does a public endorsement of Sean Bowles of not only his book, which is a fraudulent, false, prophetic, you know, manual. Not only that.

And he also endorses the man, his life, and his ministry. He sits there and goes, not only, this book's like the perfect example of a Christian life. and this guy, he backs it up with his life. Oh my gosh. So I talked to the same victim who over the phone, he's like spinning. How could Bill be so loving to me when it's one-on-one? And then he went and did that. What a betrayal.

Now, here's my contention. Cover-up culture is this. Bill Johnson has been doing this with not just Sean Bowles, but with other people for many, many years. And what's worse than that, what's worse than that, is he's labored to create a culture that is designed to do the very same thing. I can give you another example. Danny Silk, who was one of the main leaders at Bethel,

who wrote a book called Unpunishable, and he wrote a book called Culture of Honor. And these two books have, I believe, created cover-up culture in churches around the world. Because Bethel is, there's well-known guys like Kenneth Copeland, right? But churches are generally not paying attention to what Kenneth says. They're not trying to pattern their church after him. Bethel is the model for charismatic churches around the world. Right?

There's lots of locations, but there's other churches that aren't even Bethels that follow their model. Well, this model is shaped in many ways by Danny Silk, wrote this book, Unpunishable. And in the book Unpunishable, he has two cases of how leaders who are praying upon or otherwise failing in leadership, how they are unpunishable. And you put them back in leadership. In the book, he says, to the leaders. I'm not here to protect other people from you.

Blows my mind. Like if that's not why you're there, then why are you here? But he puts them in and he uses two examples of leaders that he has restored, that he personally has restored using the principles of his culture of honor, what I call cover up culture. And one of them is a guy named Ben Armstrong,

who is just taking a leave of absence because multiple people have come out to talk about how he has been, his groomed them. I've spoken to one of the victims, her name's Sarah. And it's, It's astonishing. It's not just a pastor who's like flirting with a congregant.

We're talking about a supposed prophetic leader who is using prophecy and using his super inside spiritual information. Oh, God's showing me you have daddy issues. I will help you. I have to put my hands on you to help you. Don't feel insecure. This is okay. God wants us to do this. I mean like infuriating stuff. Like you just as a guy, like I just want to go and beat the tar out of the guy. Justify a place. I'm not telling people to do that. I'm just saying the feeling is there and it's rightly there. And he puts Ben back in ministry and he calls his grooming and his predatory relationship with this young lady an affair. The other person Danny Silk puts in his book is a guy named Jonathan Welton, who is a diagnosed, diagnosed narcissistic personality disorder who has, there's a seven-hour video of all of his victims and all of the testimony and other leads.

leaders, his own board was saying he's not better Danny. Don't put him back in ministry. Danny unilaterally ignores everybody and writes about this in the book, oh, this is the way you should restore leaders. So what I'm saying is it's not accidental. This is in the intentional propping up of predatory men in ministry and shaming and disregarding and ignoring their victims. It's the opposite of what Christians should do. And Bethel is like the main exporter of this in the world. It's, I don't even have words for it. I wish this was a theological disagreement. I wish that's what that's all it was. But it's so much more than that. And, and they've done it for decades. The fact is, if Bill was, and you talk about fake repentance, if Bill was repentant,

he could tell you right now about Sean Foyt. And he could tell you right now about the stuff that he knows about, I could just, I could give name after name after name, because Bill knew about these sexual predators like Bob Hartley and Bob Jones. He knew about Ben Armstrong stuff. And they are playing some weird game right now. And it's completely inappropriate. And I know there's a lot of love for this man. If you listen to him teach, Ali, you've heard him teach.

You're like, he seems harmless. He's like the Mr. Rogers of Charismatics. But there's another side. Yeah. Yeah. Next sponsor is Good Ranchers. All right. happy birthday to the United States this year in honor of July 4th, in honor of our 250th birthday

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your first order. Use code Alley for that discount. That's good ranchers.com. Code. Allie. There are people that I follow who's, you know, a lot of their perspectives I really appreciate and agree with that do love him and love Bethel music and love, you know, their ministry. And that's tough. It's not just, it's way more fun when it's theological disagreements, not that that's superficial because theological disagreements really, really matter. But it's much better when we can just go back to scripture and talk about, okay, you see it this way, I see it this way. let's see what the Bible has to say. But when we're talking about not just theological distinctions,

but we're talking about good versus evil. And to me, like, you know, we talk a lot about different evils on the show. We talk about the cartels. We talk about abortion. We talk about the doctors who are profiting off of, you know, butchering people's bodies. We talk about a lot of evil things. And to me, there's just another level of sickness and anger that I feel

when someone who claims to share my faith and serve my God, and uses that in the instance that you just explained to emotionally manipulate the very vulnerable people that God calls us to care for and to shepherd and to love and to show God's unconditional love. It's just another level of evil and audacity to me. Then the person who is lost and is acting like a lost person. The person who follows the prince of the power of the air, or outwardly is even saying that they follow the prince of the power of the air and is acting.

like that, than the person who says that they're abiding in Christ and trying to supposedly win other people to Christ, but are either acting in a way that is evil or is covering up something that is evil. Using Christianity as a mechanism to do that, it just, I don't know, it just, it really hurts me. It makes me, it makes me so sick. And I'm sure for you, I mean, I can't even imagine just emotionally how you've been able to get through this and make something like a six-hour video talking about some of the most wicked things you've probably ever had to discuss. Yeah.

But, well, anytime I feel bad for myself, I think about the victims. I'm like, man, here I'm coming afterwards, just trying to help the situation. What they went through is, oh, my gosh, your spiritual leaders, the people you trust and love, either being the ones to pray upon you in ways that are so violating and even sometimes using God. Like, not we're doing this even though it's sinful. which is already evil, but using God, like to manipulate them. Oh my goodness, you know, Sean Bowles, when he would expose himself to his people inside of like a hotel room,

he'd make them stay in the room with him. And he'd expose himself and do things to himself, right? You can fill in the blank against their wishes. And when they said, this is wrong, and he goes, well, I'm a prophet, I need release. And you're being legalistic. You have a religious spirit. God needs to deliver you from your religious spirit.

And here's a man you believe is a real prophet because Bill Johnson stood up on stage and said he was and said how much he trusted him. And so it's jarring. My ministry has been offering counseling to the victims. We've paid for many people to get counseling. We've done legal consultations for them where we pay for them to see an attorney because they're being threatened by under NDAs, church NDAs and stuff like that. But here's okay.

That's all dark and bad news. Here's the good news. These churches, I believe, maybe I'm being naive, I believe are filled with people who love Jesus. The churches themselves, now the leadership, there's a lot of corruption because of this ambition, this ambition for revival culture that is bred corruption because that's how you get the job done. But the people that flood into them are often very sincere, Christ-loving believers who have had distortions in their faith from their leadership, yes. But if they just know, if you just uncover it, if you just show it for what it is, I don't think they'll stand for it.

And I don't think they'll be able to unsee what they've seen. I think that now when they see the manipulations again or when they hear the story, Pastor So-and-so, he's leaving. The Lord's calling him out. We don't know where he's calling him to. But you know, there's this woman crying in the corner over here. And that's when you, as a church, you go, wait, are we doing our job here? Are we taking care of people like we should?

Let's find out. And they're going to push. So I'm believing in like a grassroots transformation. I don't expect the main leaders to change, to be honest. If they did, you would know it. Nobody would say, do you think this was real, Mike? Like, you would know. You would know this was legit repentance.

And like, because it would come out more than you've ever even known would come out. But yeah, the fact that, I think about this, the fact that in the American church, we've been able to have guys like Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, we've had these guys successfully pull off. They're fraudulent, insane ministries around the world for generations. That same thing that allows those guys to happen allows a pastor to groom and sleep with someone in the congregation and then she leaves and he just keeps going. So how do we as Protestants, I think Catholics have their own authority structure that's different than ours, you know, which brings with it maybe some similar problems and corruption that we've seen

over the years. But for those of us who are Protestant, we've got our smaller forms of authority. What do we do as lay people to ensure transparency, push back against victim abuse, push back against cover-up culture, in our own local churches, in our own denominations? So I've talked to a lot of other guys about this. And initially there was a lot of people saying we need to have a structure in place, like a leadership structure in place that kind of has oversight over churches. Charismatic churches are very rogue. They're typically pretty rogue, do their own thing, and don't have a lot of accountability over them, like some other church styles do or denominations do. I personally, I want a one-size-fits-all, you know,

answer to this kind of stuff and not be like, oh, we need to create a new denomination. That's going to be the solution. Like, this is, A, it's not going to work. B, it's too small. It won't reach enough people to affect them. So in my opinion, the things we need to see are people that have moral clarity so that they know that even if they're the only voice raising their voice for somebody who's been hurt by a leader, that they are right to still stand and speak. Because in every situation I've seen, there's a bunch of people that know about it and don't want to say anything because they feel like that's what submission means.

And so re-understanding that you submit to the Lord, your loyalties to Jesus first, and truth more than your leader, actually. That's important to get grassroots into people's hearts and minds. I also think here's a question every church should ask themselves. Whatever your church government looks like, whatever your church culture looks like, ask yourself this. Hypothetically, pure hypothetical,

if my pastor was a bad guy behind the scenes, if there's another side of him that was evil, and he was hurting people and lying and manipulating and abusing finances and individuals and lying in God's name, do we have a church that would hold him accountable or would he get away with it? I would seriously ask every church to ask themselves this question. Because usually what they do is they go, well, we don't need all those structures,

or we don't need to have any sort of answer that question because our guy's a great guy. But if he was a bad dude, because maybe it's the next guy that comes in. Maybe it's a generation later. If you got a bad dude, are there systems in a culture in place whereby he will be held accountable and the people will be protected from him. And if you don't have an answer to that question with a resounding yes, a resounding yes, because oftentimes it's this, right? Especially these big megachurch pastors, not all of them, some of them are good. But their accountability is other megachurch pastors who don't even go to the church. And then they say, well, I'm accountable to pastor big name over here and big name over there. And in reality, it means the people who

supposedly hold me accountable know nothing about my local church and my local church that people have no access to them. So the answer is no. If Stephen Ferdick, I'm not accusing of anything, but if someone that big with accountability outside of his own church was actually a bad guy, no, nobody would ever stop him. The structures are in place. The culture's in place. He is the man of God. You don't like it. Go somewhere else. All right. Before we get to our last sponsor, I want to remind you to subscribe, to Blaze TV. It's where you can access a subscriber exclusive content that could possibly get us kicked off the big tech platforms, but you don't have to worry about that when you subscribe to Blaze TV. Go to BlazeTV.com. Use code Allie. You'll get $20 off your

subscription. BlazTV.com slash Alley. And before we get back into it, let me tell you about Hillsdale College. Hillsdale is one of the few colleges that my husband and I will consider sending tuition dollars to for our children. And that is because Hillsdale actually teaches its students, how to think critically, how to research well, how to write well, how to communicate well, the true history of America and our republic, our constitution. And I love that you can access all of these free courses online, Hillsdale.edu slash relatable. You can make yourself smarter as well. But I love their biblical approach to thinking in academia.

They also have a new documentary out, Revolutionary America from Hillsdale Studios. It's narrated by Tom Selleck. It brings the founding of our nation to life. What a great way to celebrate. with your children, the founding of America in our 250th year. You can get your tickets for Revolutionary America, which will be out in theaters May 31st through June 2nd at Hillsdale.edu slash revolution. That's Hillsdale.edu slash revolution. You have talked about getting threats, right? I mean, I see a lot of people in this realm, certainly not liking you for the things that

you've said. But have you actually received intimidating messages, phone calls, things like that because of what you're uncovering? I've some, yeah, some, there's like some threats, but I'm not worried about threats mostly. Mostly when it comes to to be real for those who don't know if you're in like you're more in the public eye, the threats you get are mostly someone who's just angry and they're just trying to make you feel scared because they're trying to lash out at you. And I'm not worried about that. I am worried about threats from people who are clearly unhinged.

Like you see their profile and you go, this person is not in touch with reality. Yeah, that's the kind of person I'm worried about. The one thing I am more concerned about is the two things when it comes to these exposures is, and most of these leaders would never do this stuff, but some of them probably would. The point at which the leader feels they've lost everything, everything, that's when they potentially become dangerous. When that happens, I don't anticipate a threat. why, if you're going to actually do it, why would you threaten it first?

I don't anticipate a threat at that point. The other one is if somebody knew I was behind the scenes working on an expose that was going to cost them millions of dollars and ruin their reputations because they would be exposed for who they are. If they knew ahead of time I was working on that and knew that if they just took me out, so let's just say I'm not going to talk about all that I'm working on. That's my strategy there. but I believe

that I believe that some of these leaders have done this in the past they've killed people I believe it yeah I can't but I don't have the witnesses to go forward with it so

wow you're doing this clearly based on the conviction that you believe that God has given you because you could have done another series on any number of theological subjects

that would have performed very well for people who are like, oh, you're just doing this for, you know, because it's grabby, because it makes headlines. Well, your videos perform while anyway. You already get hundreds of thousands of views. That's me saying that. That's not you bragging on yourself. You already had a ton of subscribers.

And so you don't have to be doing this. You're doing this because you feel called to do it. You feel convicted to do it, come what may, on behalf of the victims, but also because you think truth matters. And again, for anyone who's like, oh, he's just anti-charismatic, it's not just, it's not a theological debate, right? With charismatic. So we can have that at a different time. This is not essentially about that.

And you would be doing the same thing if it was the Southern Baptist Convention or the Methodist or anyone else. These are the, the reason why I'm targeting Charismatics is because these are the people who came to me asking for help. These are the victims that reached out and I interviewed them. And I was like, it's like a network. How are these all connected? How are all these different stories connected to the same people over and over and over again? And the people who are like, why are you targeting the Charismatic? I'm just like, it's because you don't realize how big the problem is.

That's all it is. If it had been a bunch of people inside the SBC who came out asking for help and they're going, no one's helping us and we're being oppressed and we're being lied about. And I would have done a series on that. I don't know the SBC situation. I've never looked into it. I don't like looking into this stuff. I hear about the SBC stuff.

I've literally never sat down and researched all the drama and all the stuff that's gone on with the SBC. I don't prefer to do that. Like I said, rather do Bible studies. So these victims came forward. They were deeply connected. I think it was the Lord. I think God wanted me to do it. So I'm doing it.

And I think it's having a big impact. And it's beautiful to see. There is a grassroots movement in the charismatic church where chariomatics who are not abandoning necessarily their belief that God can speak today and that God will give them a vision or a dream or something like that. But they're demanding integrity and honesty and truth in both their spiritual practices as well as in their leadership safety and integrity. And it's beautiful to see. It's beautiful to see. It's not those who think you're destroying the charismatic church. You're not paying attention, man. This is one of the best things that can happen

to the Charismatics. Amen. Well, thank you so much, Mike. And I just encourage people, if they don't already, I'm sure a lot of people in my audience already do, but subscribe and watch these videos. Whether you're charismatic, I've got charismatic so you listen to this show. You need to go watch this, probably more than anyone. And you could be a part of the solution that God has and the remedy that God has for a lot of this corruption and cover-up culture. And I love what you said about all of us. All of us can be a part of this of holding our leaders to biblical standards and upholding biblical accountability. So thank you so much for the part that you're playing, even at great.

risk to you. I just appreciate it and I appreciate you taking the time to come on. Hey, and Ali, listen, I appreciate you and your work and the clarity and like grounding that you bring to the situations that you talk about. And I know that your, your audience is, is, helped by the work you do. Thank you. Likewise. Appreciate it.