Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1365 | The Iran Deal’s Surprising Role in End Times Prophecy | Mark Hitchcock

Starting point is 00:00:00 How does the new deal with Iran fit into biblical prophecy about the end times? Or does it at all? And does it matter? Today we've got Pastor Mark Hitchcock here. He just wrote the book, The Persian Storm, all about biblical prophecy and what is going on in the Middle East. Fascinating conversation, no matter how you land on eschatology, you will learn something and be encouraged. This episode is brought to by our friends at Good Ranchers.com. Use code alia. Check out. That's good ranchers.com. Code Alley. Mark, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. Could you tell everyone who you are and what you do? Well, yeah, my name is Mark Hitchcock. I'm a pastor of Faith Bible Church in Edmund, Oklahoma. I'm also a research professor down at Dallas Theological Seminary. I taught down there for several years. Been at the church that I pastor for 35 years.

Starting point is 00:01:00 And my favorite thing is I'm a grandfather. I've got seven grandchildren. That is wonderful. All right, if you could tell us about your latest book, Persian Storm, what it is and why you wrote it? Well, you know, I've been watching what's happening in the Middle East for a lot of years. I love Bible prophecy. And, you know, I love Bible prophecy. It's really helped me put the Bible together. It really helps me understand God's plan for what's happening in our world now and in the future.

Starting point is 00:01:25 So I've been studying Bible prophecy for a lot of years. And I believe there's a prophecy in the Bible in Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39. It talks about a coming invasion of the land of Israel when the people. people of Israel have been regathered back to their land, which they have now since 1948. And it talks about a coalition of nations that will come into Israel and invade them in the end times. And several nations are mentioned. They're ancient names, but we look at the modern counterparts. One of those nations in Ezekiel 385 is Persia, which is modern day Iran. The name was just changed in 1935 to Iran, and today it's the Islamic Republic of Iran. And so I believe that

Starting point is 00:02:05 what we see happening in our world today is setting the stage for these future events that the Bible predicts. And we don't know everything that's going to happen, but we know the end result. The Bible tells us about this coming invasion. And what we see today, I think, is the buildup to that. It's setting the stage for these events that are coming. And so I think it's important for us as believers to understand what the Bible says about what's coming in the future, but also to help us see how things are being set up today for that.

Starting point is 00:02:33 And one of the things that does is gives us a lot of confidence that the Bible's true. and that God's in control of what's happening. It's not just chaos, and we're just kind of like a, you know, a bus going down a mountain road out of control, that there's a plan that God has and he's in control, and that we can have confidence and trust in that, and it gives us hope. Yes.

Starting point is 00:02:53 You know, there are so many different debates, as you know, about the end times what that's going to look like. There's a group who believes that, you know, what is interpreted by many today as in times prophecy has already been fulfilled, post-millennialists tend to believe that way there's the all-millennialist. I'm a historic pre-millennialist, which is not dispensationalist. But there's a lot of crossover and then also a lot of differences in what faithful Christians

Starting point is 00:03:18 believe is going to occur when Jesus returns again, rapture in the middle of the tribulation, after the tribulation, all different kinds of things. But you've arrived to the conclusion that you come to, which I think is dispensationalism, correct? That's right, yes. Yeah, I'm a pre-millennialist like you. I believe Jesus is coming back, going to set up a literal thousand-year reign. But, yeah, the difference is I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. That's probably the main difference between historic premillennial and dispensational premillian. Yes. Right. Whereas I'm post-trib, you are pre-trib, but a lot of similarities in what we think about when things are going to occur in the end times. And I'm so fascinated in what you talk about when you talk about Ezekiel, Ezekiel, 38 through 39. and what that has to do with this Persian storm and what's going on right now. So could you elucidate that a little bit? Sure.

Starting point is 00:04:15 You know, Ezekiel 37 is a good starting point. Ezekiel 37 talks about a regathering of the Jewish people in the end times to their land. And that really began in earnest in 1948 when the modern state of Israel was founded. And the only 6% of the Jews lived in Israel in 1948. They were regathered after being scattered for 2,000 years to see. 70 countries. They're regathered to their homeland, to their ancient homeland. And the Bible predicts that they're going to be regathered there in Ezekiel 37. We're seeing that prophecy about Israel being regathered, being fulfilled before our eyes. So we can know the other things Ezekiel says will happen

Starting point is 00:04:54 as well, because we can see one prophecy happening right before our eyes. But Ezekiel 38 talks about when they're regathered to their land, and it says when they're at rest and living securely, that a group of nations are going to come into Israel to try to wipe them out, to try to, like they're going to come like a cloud to wipe them off the face of the earth. And some of these nations that are mentioned, if you look at the modern counterparts to those, it's for the places that are mentioned are in modern day Turkey. Persia, of course I mentioned earlier, mentions modern day Iran, Arosh and Magog, which I believe are in modern day Russia are mentioned. And so, you know, these are the nations that we see today, primarily Iran right now that are, you know, the main enemy of Israel, I have all these proxies

Starting point is 00:05:37 against Israel. And so the Bible tells us that's going to happen at some point in the future when Israel's been regathered to their land. And again, since the prophecy in Ezekiel 37 about Israel being regathered is being literally fulfilled, I believe that Ezekiel 38 and 39 will be literally fulfilled as well at some point in the future. So again, I see what's happening today in the Middle East as the buildup to this. Nothing we see today is the fulfillment of anything in Ezekiel 38, but just the stage is being set

Starting point is 00:06:09 because the events of the end times can't happen in a vacuum. It's not like it's just going to, all of a sudden, everything's just going to come together in a year's time. There's a buildup and a process to this, and that's what I think we see happening, which indicates to me that, you know,

Starting point is 00:06:22 Christ's coming could be very near. Now, we don't set dates for Christ coming. That's a reckless thing to ever do. Jesus forbade us to do that. But there are things we see in our world today that the scenario in our world, the events in our world look more and more like the biblical scenario, I believe that's predicted for the end times more and more all the time. You know, some people argue that while we've already seen kind of the fulfillment of that

Starting point is 00:06:51 happened in the book of Esther, but obviously you're arguing that, no, no, the Gog and May Gog, Ezekiel 38 through 39, has not yet been fulfilled. that will happen at a future date. And so what do you say to that contention that that's basically already occurred? Yeah, several things. One is in Ezekiel 38, it talks about that it's going to happen in the latter years. It's just going to happen in the last days. And that phrase is often used of the time of the coming of Messiah in the Old Testament.

Starting point is 00:07:19 But back in the book of Esther, there was a destruction of a lot of enemies of Israel in the book of Esther, but they didn't come into the land of Israel. They were kind of, the Jewish people were scattered all over the place and kind of took care of their enemies or destroyed their enemies in various places. Ezekiel 38 says these nations are going to come into the land of Israel and they're going to die. They're going to be killed supernaturally by God on the mountains of Israel, by disease, by fire and brimstone from heaven, by infighting among the armies. Nothing like that happened back in 473 AD or 473 B.C. whenever, the book of Esther took place. Also, you know, if the book of Esther,

Starting point is 00:08:03 there's a Jewish feast that came out of that of the book of Esther called the Feast of Purim. And it'd be interesting if the Jewish people don't believe that Ezekiel 38 was fulfilled in the time of Esther, because if they did, they would make that part of their celebration of the Feast of Purim.

Starting point is 00:08:20 So the Jewish people themselves don't see that as a fulfillment of Ezekiel 38. So I don't think it's something that's, you know, far in the distant past. It's something that's still future today. All right, quick pause to tell you about our first sponsor. It's crowd health. I know that there are at least some of you out there who are tired of your health insurance.

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Starting point is 00:10:29 writing in about 570 bc and so when he's writing back then obviously these modern nations that we know today don't exist. So I think he's just stating these are the geographical locations. These are the places that will be part of this invasion. Now the names of some of these places have changed a lot over time, but it's these locations, these places, whatever they're called, whenever this event takes place, you know, they could change again. Some of these names could. But there's four of them that are mentioned that are in modern-day Turkey as Meshach and Tubaul and Gomer and Togarma. I mean, they're clearly in modern-day Turkey. You know, again, Persia just became Iran. Put is mentioned, which is modern day Libya, Kush, which is Sudan. The modern day

Starting point is 00:11:11 was south of Egypt. So these are the locations that are going to invade. But obviously, Ezekiel's writing in his day, if he would have written modern names for these places, no one would have had any idea where they were. He was writing to his audience at that time. Now, obviously, every Christian, no matter what their eschatological view is, should look to the Bible as our guidebook, not modern events. But at the same time, we do look at modern events, and then we look to scripture. We try to compare the two, as you're doing in your bulk,

Starting point is 00:11:45 and say, okay, what exactly is happening according to these biblical prophecies? Is there anything in this Iran peace deal, as it's called, that has kind of just been executed, that shapes or affects what you think about everything that you're talking about in that region? Well, you know, so Ron Peace Deal is one of the most amazing things I've ever seen. You talk about back and forth and conflicting ideas.

Starting point is 00:12:10 You know, somebody says one thing and then the other side comes out next day and says, you know, that's not true. So, but, you know, the whole idea, though, of peace in the Middle East has been an elusive phantom now for decades. I mean, president after president, you know, Secretary of State after Secretary of State have tried to go over and solve that Gordian knot, you know, that Rubik's Cube over there in the Middle least. And my understanding, again, a Bible prophecy is, I think in the end times, there's a figure who's going to arise called the Antichrist. He's going to be a kind of a rise out of nowhere. He's going to gain power. And eventually he's going to take over the whole world, which I think you, a lot of the technology today and all of that fits in with that whole scenario. We see how that's possible today. The tools of world domination are in place. But I think the Bible tells us that when

Starting point is 00:13:00 the Antichrist comes on the scene, he's going to forge some kind of peace agreement there in the Middle East that's going to bring peace to Israel for a period of time. So it's going to be a false peace. It's going to be a temporary peace, but he's going to do what no one's been able to do and solve that unsolvable problem. So I see all of these peace negotiations, peace movements that are taking place in the Middle East as a buildup to that. And alongside of that, we have these Abraham Accords, which a lot of people believe if we can, you know, if something can come up to pass where the U.S. and Iran can come to some peace deal, then that may open up a broader peace where Saudi Arabia and some of these other nations will become part of the Abraham Accords. You know, of course, President Trump has started this Board of Peace that's, you know, trying to negotiate the situation with Israel and Gaza. But you just see all these different things, the Abraham Accords, the Board of Peace, the peace negotiations between Iran and the U.S.,

Starting point is 00:13:59 right now I think you Hezbollah and Israel have agreed to some talks where they're going to meet and talk about peace. So it's just all peace talks there, but it never seems to be solid or permanent. And so when the Antichrist comes on the scene, I think he's going to be able to broker some kind of a deal. And he may take you a framework that's already in place and just make it stronger. So I see all of this, you know, negotiating for peace as a key piece to, the end time puzzle because I believe that there's a seven-year tribulation period that's coming in the future, a seven-year time of great trouble for the world. And the Bible tells us the event that starts that period of time is this peace treaty that the Antichrist is able to broker over there and

Starting point is 00:14:46 bringing to the Middle East. So to me, all this is just a build-up again to what's coming. And we don't know what will happen. There'll be a lot of twists and turns as we go along. But this peace negotiation, I think is a very key part of that ultimate scenario that the Bible predicts. I have so many questions. It's so fascinating. Should Christians then be wary of any world leader who is trying to negotiate peace, considering that we all want peace. War is bad.

Starting point is 00:15:16 We don't want casualties. We don't want the conflict that comes with war. And so peacemaking, obviously, is something that's good regarded very highly by Jesus. So how should we think of this? Do we think of peacemaking in the Middle East with skepticism? Or should we celebrate it? No, I'm for that. I mean, I think any person should be.

Starting point is 00:15:37 Jesus said, blessed to the peacemakers. It's our job in this world to do what we can, to see justice carried out compassion. We don't want people being killed in the Russia, Ukraine war, and these wars, these terrible wars that are taking place. So we should be in favor of these things. You know, it's not our job as Christians to try to work these things and, you know, try to see world events happen in a way where the end times will come. God will take care of all of that. Our job is to work for peace, for compassion. I pray for the peace process there. I love the people of Iran. There are many believers there. We don't want people over there being killed and their economy being

Starting point is 00:16:14 destroyed. So we want peace. But the Bible does say that ultimately there's someone who will come who's going to use peace then kind of as a tool in his own toolbox to kind of come in and gain ascendancy in the world. But we should be wary of people today who are trying to bring peace because the Antichrist is going to come on the scene in a very obscure way. He's going to rise out of insignificance. So no one we see today on the world scene who's really well known is the Antichrist, I believe. I believe he's going to rise up out of total obscurity and insignificance at the beginning of that period of tribulation. And so we should be for peace and compassion for people all over the world today. God will work all those things out in his time. Yeah. And it's also

Starting point is 00:17:04 important to note, and you can add to this, I'm sure, but that the brokering of peace is not the only signal that this person is the Antichrist. The Antichrist will also be able to achieve global power. will also bring about the intense persecution of believers. And so we can't say, oh, anyone who is trying to broker a peace, Trump, or anyone else in his administration or whatever, that they're acting in a way that is of the Antichrist. The Antichrist will be a distinct figure who not only brings about a fake piece, but also has all of these other characteristics that are described in Revelation, right? That's right.

Starting point is 00:17:46 Yeah, the Antichrist. I mean, he's going to come on the scene. He's going to be someone like the world's never seen before. The Bible says he's going to do signs and wonders. I mean, he's going to be a miracle worker. He's going to be a captivating, mesmerizing speaker that will take the world by storm. He's going to use, I believe, all the technology that we have in our world today, to leverage these things to be able to gain control over people's lives.

Starting point is 00:18:10 Ultimately, the Antichrist is going to demand that the whole world worship him as God. So, you know, what began, you know, in the book of Genesis with the sin of man is going to end with the man of sin in the end. And we shouldn't try to identify anyone today as the Antichrist. People send me all kinds of stuff all the time, you know, telling me they figured out who the Antichrist is. And we're not to try to figure out who the Antichrist is. Of course, myself, you know, believing in the pre-tribulation rapture, I think we're going to be raptured before he's revealed. So I don't think we'll even know who he is. And so I always tell people, you know, from my perspective, if you ever figure out who the Antichrist is, I got bad news for you've been left behind.

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Starting point is 00:19:43 Use my code relatable for an exclusive 20% off of any product. That is cozyearth.com code relatable. Okay, so is your view then? I hope you're right and I'm wrong, by the way, because I would love for the rapture before the tribulation to be true. And many people I honor and respect hold that belief as well. We do read that the mark of the beast will be those. Okay, so those who refuse to worship the Antichrist will not take the mark of the beast.

Starting point is 00:20:22 so that will be believers. So is your view then that those believers who refuse to take the mark of the beast, that they became believers during that tribulation and after the rapture? That those Christians in your view wouldn't be Christians that were already Christians at that point, but became Christians later after the original church is raptured up. Right. That's what you have to hold if you hold in my view. Yeah, everybody who's a believer on the face of the earth at the moment of the rapture

Starting point is 00:20:49 It was caught up in a moment in the twinkling of an eye. And then after that, many people will come to faith. You know, I think the rapture could be the greatest evangelistic tool in history. I mean, you think about all the people have heard about it. And all of a sudden, you know, these people disappeared like, wow, you know, this is what they said was right. And it'll reorder the world. I think we don't have any idea today in some ways how the world will be reordered, how the Antichrist will be able to come in. He'll be the man with a plan.

Starting point is 00:21:15 And he's going to come in and have all kinds of plans and bring. to this world. So yeah, people will come to Christ after that. In Revelation 7, there's a whole multitude of people there are believers. Can't even count the number. And, you know, John asks, who are these? And he says, these are those who've come out of great tribulation. They've rushed their robes wide in the blood of the lamb. So many, many people will come to Christ, I believe, after the rapture takes place during the tribulation. So we often call them tribulation saints. And those are the people that we read about in my view, you know, during the tribulation period, who are on the earth.

Starting point is 00:21:50 Yeah. Yeah. So interesting. You know, there are some people who I think this is mostly in the post-millennial camp, which is not the camp that I'm in, but who believe that, you know, the tribulation has already happened. And there are many tribulations that happen. Some of them believe that Nero is the Antichrist.

Starting point is 00:22:06 And we're just living in a different time now post-millennial. But, you know, something that I hear a lot is, well, it's easy for us Americans to say, that there will be a future tribulation. But if you look at, for example, what's happening in Nigeria or in the Middle East or in China to Christians, not just today, but throughout history, how they have been slaughtered, kidnapped, enslaved, tortured, Ottoman Empire, the horrible things that Christians went through. How can there be a future tribulation that would be even worse than that? And so, like, how do we distinguish what that future tribulation will be like versus the already horrible

Starting point is 00:22:47 things that Christians are having to endure around the world today. Yeah, that's a great question. You know, what I distinguish it this way is you kind of, everybody in this world as believers have tribulation. Jesus said, the Apostle Paul said, it's by many tribulations, you'll enter the kingdom of God. So everybody has problems, troubles, trials in life. Many people, severe trials, as you've mentioned,

Starting point is 00:23:10 in different parts of the world. But I call those small tea tribulation, and the tribulation period will be the capital. capital T tribulation, because the thing that will distinguish it is not only will there be the wrath of humanity, I mean, humanity's inhumanity to one another, not only will there be the wrath of Satan Satan and his demonic host that we see today, but the tribulation will be a unique period of time when God himself is doling out and pouring out wrath upon the earth. You have a series of judgments. there's seven seals, there's seven trumpets, there's seven bowls, as God himself is judging this world for

Starting point is 00:23:50 its rebellion against him. And so that's one of the reasons people like myself are pre-trib, because all of us believe, all the different views of the rapture believe that we're exempt from God's wrath. It's just, when does the wrath start and how does God keep us from it? And I believe that whole seven-year period is the wrath of God on this earth. Now it intensifies because Jesus this picture like birth pains. And so they get closer together and they get more severe as you go along. So it doesn't start out as bad as it is at the end. But that whole period is the wrath of God. And so that's what's different. People today who are living in countries being tortured and kidnapped and persecuted as believers, they're suffering the wrath of people and the wrath of Satan, but they're not

Starting point is 00:24:35 suffering the wrath of God. And so that's a distinction that I would make. That's going to be a unique period of history in the future. Yeah, something that we haven't seen before. And if people want to know my exact view of eschatology, I've done an episode, a few episodes on that, but we'll link it in the description of this episode. People can go, can go look at that. But I'm more interested in what you think in this conversation. I'm curious about Iran and a little bit more about their role in this, obviously hostility toward Israel, toward America, are two of their main characteristics. But if the Iranian regime, as hostile as it is right now, say it was overturned and it was replaced by a more neutral, less radical regime, would that change at all what you think about what is

Starting point is 00:25:23 shaping up eschatologically in the Middle East? Well, you know, what I always look at when I see the Bible is we know, I know, at least, well, I think I know, you know, what the Bible says about Ezekiel 38, 39. So we know what's going to happen ultimately. But how we get there, we don't know. You know, we don't know all the different events that will take place to get to that invasion in the future. But what I believe is at some point in time, in the future, Israel's going to be at rest, they're going to be living securely. In other words, they're going to be living under this false peace of the Antichrist.

Starting point is 00:25:56 Russia, Iran, these nations are going to conspire together. I mean, you know, you think about Iran with all that's happening right now with midnight hammer and Operation Roaring Lion and Epic Fury. and I mean, their hatred for Israel, obviously, among the regime, has been at a very high level, but now I think it's higher than ever. And they will look at any chance in the future they have to pounce upon Israel. But, you know, even if the regime over there were to fall and a more moderate regime were to come in, all the seeds of that revolution are still there. All those Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps leaders are still there, unless they're totally eliminated,

Starting point is 00:26:34 the Basij, who's kind of the ground troops for this radical regime will all still be there. And among all the leaders that are there, the whole Mullah regime, they, you know, it's interesting in Iran, they have an eschatology too. They have a view of the end times. Yeah. And that's actually what drives. Right. I would love to hear more about that. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:26:54 That ideology is really what drives everything for them. It's fascinating. They're very interested in prophecy in the future. But their view is they have this Mahdi. The word Madi means the rightly guided one. And they believe the Madi, the 12th Imam, he was a direct descendant of Muhammad, went into hiding, or they call it occlusion back in the 9th century, back in 873 AD. So he's been in hiding all this time.

Starting point is 00:27:21 And they believe that someday he'll come out of hiding and he'll be the rightly guided one. He'll be their ruler. He's going to bring justice to the world. He's going to bring a global rule of Islam. But they believe that for him to come. come that he's going to come in a time of chaos and bloodshed in the world. And they believe that America is the big Satan and Satan's the little Satan and that those need to, we need to be removed for their Mahdi to come back. And so they believe too that they can they can hotwire the apocalypse. They can put

Starting point is 00:27:53 out the welcome mat for the Mahdi by creating these things. So they believe that in creating all this chaos and fighting against Israel and, you know, trying to destroy the United States, they can't that they're actually, you know, speeding up the coming of their body. So all of that ideology that's deeply embedded there, that's not going to go away. It's not going to go anywhere, no matter who's ruling there. And it would, you know, I think those seeds could rise back up very quickly. You could see, you know, another overthrow or a coup there. You know, again, we don't know what would happen.

Starting point is 00:28:26 But we do know what the Bible says will happen. And whatever happens over in Iran, God's in control of that. And ultimately, it will lead to the events in his. K-KL 38, I believe. Next sponsor is Good Ranchers. Did you know that July is National Grilling Month? That means that you got to celebrate, along with celebrating the 4th of July, along with celebrating America's 250th birthday by getting all of your meat, your seafood, your beef, your chicken,

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Starting point is 00:30:16 today. But your argument is that we are, that we are talking about the current nation state of Israel, whereas critics would say, no, God's chosen people in Israel, they go through the line of Christ and through the lens of Christ, we have been grafted in. We are the church. We are the new Israel, and you take a differing approach to what I just articulated. So can you talk a little bit more about that, why you take Israel references in these prophecies literally? Sure. It goes all the way back to Abraham, the Abrahamic covenant. God made a covenant with Abraham. You told him, lift up your eyes. He's in the land of Canaan. Look as far as you can see every direction. I'm going to give this land to you and to your descendants forever.

Starting point is 00:31:03 made the same promise to Isaac, made the same promise to Jacob. God promised them that land, their descendants forever. Now, God's put them out of the land several times for their disobedience. The last time he did it was in 70 AD. They were scattered against 70 countries for 2,000 years. But they were brought back in 1948 by a UN resolution. But it's a miracle that the Jewish people are back there in their land today. It's called the miracle on the Mediterranean, that they're even there.

Starting point is 00:31:33 Again, I mentioned earlier, 6% of the Jews were there then. Almost half the Jews in the world are back there in the land. Now, a lot of people will say, well, how do we even know who a Jew is today? Well, if you look up on Google, say, how many Jews are there in the world? They'll say, 16 million, 16 or 17 million. So somebody has a count of who Jewish people are. They say, well, these people just came back from Eastern Europe, you know, and came back to Israel. Well, they had to come back from somewhere because they'd been dispersed and scattered all over the world.

Starting point is 00:32:01 And so I believe that God brought them back there in the fulfillment of Ezekiel chapter 37. You know, they're not there by accident. They've been brought back there by God to set the stage for these events of the end times. And so I believe that the covenants God made with Israel, with the Jewish people, with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, with their descendants. I believe those are still enforced today. Because in Romans 9-4, Paul says they're in the present tense. He says the covenants belong to. Israel. He doesn't say the covenants belonged to Israel. They belonged to Israel. And Israel in that

Starting point is 00:32:37 context clearly is the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And so if those covenants, you know, and of course Paul's writing those words during this current age, the church age, so I believe those covenants still belong to Israel and that God will fulfill those with them, a future generation of them at some point in the future. And now in the church age today, in the church, Jews and Gentiles are one in the body of Christ. But I believe that God has a special plan for the nation of Israel through those covenants he made, and that God will literally fulfill those covenants at some point in the future. Yeah. You know, as you were talking, I was also thinking of Romans 9, and I'm wondering how you think of this verse when Paul says,

Starting point is 00:33:21 not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they're his offspring. But through Isaac, shall your offspring be named? That means, Paul says, that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. So, like, it seems to me, because he's saying, he goes on to say, is there injustice on God's part that he seemed to promise this one thing and now he's doing something else? And he goes on to say, well, no, because God created us.

Starting point is 00:33:52 He's the authority of all things. and who are we to accuse God of injustice. You know, I've interpreted this passage as meaning, look, it's children of the promise. God fulfilled his promises through Christ, and it is those in Christ who are his chosen people. As he says, it's not children of the flesh who are offspring of Abraham, but children of the promise. So how should we think of that? Well, it says earlier, it says, you know, not all who are Israel are of Israel. In other words, not all Israelites are believers.

Starting point is 00:34:20 So Israelites, Jewish people who aren't believers in Messiah, they're not part of the promise. They don't receive that promise. But it doesn't mean that somehow those blessings have been transferred to Gentiles or to the church. I think he's just saying, look, not everybody who's of Israel or born of Israel, who's a Jew, is really a true Israelite. In other words, they're not really a full Jew in the sense of believing in Jesus as their Messiah. So I don't think he's making a transference there of, you know, now Gentiles are Jews as well.

Starting point is 00:34:52 Because you read all of Romans 9, 10, and 11 together. You get all the way down to chapter 11, verse 1. It says, the end of chapter 10, God says, I'm holding out my arms day after day through this obstinate people. They reject me. Then he says in chapter 11 verse 1, has God rejected his people whom he foreknew? Talking about the Jewish people. This is God forbid, the strongest negative you can have in the Greek language.

Starting point is 00:35:18 He goes on to talk about what he's doing in this country. current age. Then he get down to 1125 and he says that when the fullness of the Gentiles have come in, all Israel will be saved. And I think that looks at a remnant of Israel in the end times that God's going to save in the end. Deliver is going to come from Zion, which is Jerusalem. He's going to remove ungodliness from Jacob. In other words, this generation at the end is going to be purged and they're going to be able to go into his kingdom. But Romans 9, 10, and 11, we read all those, all three of those chapters kind of together. Chapter 9 is kind of Israel's past, their past election. Chapter 10 is their present rejection. In Chapter 11, I think it's their future restoration. And I think the reason Romans 9, 10,

Starting point is 00:36:03 and 11 are there, this is very important in the book of Romans. Why does God just put those chapters in there? Right at the end of Romans 8, he's just made this promise, nothing can separate you from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus. High depth, angels, principalities, nothing. Well, there would be somebody out there, maybe an objector would say, well, what about the Jewish people? You made all these promises to them. It looks like you've rejected them. And so how can I know you're not going to do the same to me? So I think he puts chapters 10, 11, 9, 10, and 11 there to say, I haven't rejected them forever. They are now been set aside. They're obstinate. The majority of them don't believe in me, but I've still got a plan for them, and I'm going to fulfill my promises with them.

Starting point is 00:36:46 And so you can be assured I'm going to fulfill my promises with you as well. Yeah. And what we agree on and what all Christians definitionally have to agree on is that there is only salvation through Christ. And even when you're talking about a future plan for the remnant of Israel, you are not talking about a separate mode of salvation. Sometimes they see people accuse dispensationalists of that. And that's not true.

Starting point is 00:37:11 You believe that that promise is fulfilled through Christ, just as it's been fulfilled to us through Christ too, correct? Yeah, that's right. In Zechariah 12, it says that they're going to look upon me whom they've pierced. They're going to mourn like one mourns for an only son. When Jesus comes, I believe there's going to be a generation of Jewish people who will look to Jesus and they'll see him. And, you know, the only man-made thing in heaven will be the wounds of Jesus.

Starting point is 00:37:38 They'll be there forever for people to see. And the Jewish people are going to recognize him. They're going to look upon the one they pierce. They're going to mourn for him. They're going to repent. and they're going to receive him as their Messiah. And I think then God's program and plan for them will have come full circle and will be completed during that time

Starting point is 00:37:55 and he'll fulfill his promises with him. I think during the millennium, during the kingdom, you're going to give him the land that he promised and all of that. Yes. You know, a lot of people, when they think about the end times, they're just like, you know, I just don't want to think about it. It's all going to work out in the end. It's, you know, some people think it's stressful.

Starting point is 00:38:15 there are so many disagreements and debates about it. What is the responsible, most biblical and peaceful way? Not via speculation, but, you know, in a biblical way to think about the end times. And why is it important for Christians to consider? Well, you know, I always say, you know, about the millennium, you know, the pre-millennial, I'm millennial, I'm millennial post-mlineline, I'm pro-millennial. I'm for the millennium anytime, you know. So, you know, we don't want to argue about things with other believers, you know,

Starting point is 00:38:45 There are several things that if you're a believer, you have to understand about the end times. We believe Jesus is coming back literally, visibly is coming back to the earth. We believe that there's a future resurrection. We believe that there's a future final judgment. And we believe there's a literal heaven and hell. So those are kind of the four pillars of a biblical view of the end times. Now, around those four things, there are a lot of different, you know, points that we discuss with one another. But anyone who believes those things has an orthodox view.

Starting point is 00:39:15 of the end times. And we don't want to, you know, make this an issue where we break fellowship with people. I have friends that disagree with me on different points. I mean, even, you know, even if someone's a dispensationalist, we still disagree about other little things. But, you know, people disagree about a lot of things. People disagree about baptism and the Lord's Supper. And, you know, so we don't want to, and Calvinism and Armenianism.

Starting point is 00:39:38 So we don't want to allow the fact that we disagree about the end times to cause us not to study it. I think a lot of people just kind of turned off with there's so many views, but there's a lot of views about a lot of things. But I think it's important to study Bible prophecy because there are a thousand prophecies in the Bible, about a thousand prophecies. About 500 of those have been literally fulfilled. There's nothing that proves the truth of the Bible and that God is the true God like prophecy. So the Bible is filled with prophecy. And it's the only hope that we have in this world. the only hope in this world that we have is the coming of Christ,

Starting point is 00:40:16 that he's going to come back someday and make this world everything that we've always wanted it to be. There's no hope in this world. Now, there's a lot of things in this world. God's given us a beautiful world, so many things to enjoy, but our ultimate hope is in Christ and in his coming. And I think a lot of people who are Christians don't think about that very often. They probably almost never even think about that Jesus is coming back. and it's mentioned 318 times in 260 chapters in the New Testament.

Starting point is 00:40:47 So more than once per chapter. So obviously this is something that God wants us to think about. When the Bible is originally written, 28% of the Bible was prophecy at the time it was written. A lot of that's been fulfilled already. But it's something that we need to understand, I think, just to have a grasp of kind of God's program, his plan, where things are headed in this world. and God didn't give us prophecy to scare us but to prepare us. He didn't give it to us to make us afraid, but to make us aware and alert and ready for him when he comes back and living a life that's pleasing to him.

Starting point is 00:41:23 And so I think it's a very important part of our Christian lives that I think is kind of neglected. I think in many people's spiritual lives, even in their spiritual disciplines, to really long for the coming of Jesus. The New Testament ends, John saying, even so, you know, come Lord Jesus. Last sponsor is Every Life. What if I told you that major diaper companies are paying for their employees to cross state lines to get an abortion at a later date than the state where they live allows them to get an abortion? Like, not only is it counterproductive for your business to abort babies, but much bigger than that, it is grossly immoral. And if we have the option not to pay for that and not to be a part of that by buying diapers and wipes from those pro-abortion companies, then we should take the option.

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Starting point is 00:42:40 They need wipes. They need all kinds of things to help them make that life-affirming decision. So not only does Every Life make great products. When we were in our diaper stage, which we will be in again soon, we were using all of their diapers and wipes, which work really well or really clean, great for sensitive baby skin. But I just also love knowing the mission behind it and what I'm supporting by using Everylife products. Go to EveryLife.com. Use code Alley 10.

Starting point is 00:43:05 You'll get 10% off your first order. That's EveryLife.com. code alley 10. You know, a lot of people accuse pre-millennialists of just, of being pessimistic and of saying, while the world is going to go to hell in a hand basket, it's just going to get worse and worse. And so there's no use in trying to make anything better because things are only going to become more simple and more corrupt. Why is that a wrong interpretation of the view that who just articulated that, yeah, things are going to be bad, but Jesus is coming back in the end. Why doesn't that mean that we should just sit on our hands and wait?

Starting point is 00:43:52 Well, Jesus has given us all kinds of commands about what to do while we're waiting. He's told us to go and take the gospel to all nations. He's told us how to treat our spouse. He's told us how to raise our children. He's told us how to interact in society. He's told us how to work. He told us how to relate to government. You'll give to Caesar what's to God, what's God's.

Starting point is 00:44:10 So there's nothing in the Bible at all about just sitting around and waiting. In fact, in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 3, Paul chides these Thessalonian believers who kind of were just quit working. They were just kind of parasites, just kind of sponging off the other believers, this idea, hey, Jesus is coming back. And so we're just kind of just live life and not worry about anything. Paul writes a letter and comes against the Thessalonian. for living that way. And one thing I've always found fascinating through some of the greatest

Starting point is 00:44:45 missionaries and Christian leaders of the last 100 years were pre-millennialists. You know, D.L. Moody, Billy Graham. I know you probably know Greg L. L. Lory, he's a friend of mine. You know, Greg Lori is a strong Bible prophecy, premillennialist. C.I. Schofield. John Piper. Yeah. And, you know, C.I. Schofield, you know, the Schofield Bible. You know, people just love to lambast. the Schofield Bible, but C.I. Schofield started the Central American Mission, a missions organization that's had great impact. So not just pre-millennialists, but even dispensationalists,

Starting point is 00:45:19 have had a big impact in world missions and all of that. And so I've never, once in my life, and I've known, you know, most of the leading dispensationalists, probably over the last 50 years, I've never met one of them that had that attitude, just kind of a laissez-faire attitude. Tim LaHaye, you know, was a strong dispensationist. wrote the Left Behind series. He was one of the most active evangelists I've ever met in my life.

Starting point is 00:45:42 I've been with him many times. And he's sharing the gospel with a waitress that comes to wait on us or someone in a store. I mean, he was, you know, the farthest thing from a person just kind of sitting back and saying, well, hey, we're just going to wait for the Lord to come back and constantly busy laboring for the Lord. So the people that I know that I'm friends with that are pre-millennialist, dispensationalists are actually some of the most engaged, culturally engaged people that I know. Yeah. What else can you tell us about that you wrote in your book that you're like, okay, this was one thing that in your research and your study that you found fascinating or really important that you want people to know? Well, you know, I think one of the things that's important

Starting point is 00:46:26 is as we look at these, you know, events that are happening in our world today is how much focus there is on these nations that are mentioned in Ezekiel 38 until you really start thinking about you know, you don't really notice that. But obviously Israel, I mean, they became a nation in 1948. And, you know, they're the focus of all kinds of hatred today and venom against them. There they are. And the Bible predicts that Israel will be a burdensome stone to the nations in the end times. Well, if there's any nation that's a burdensome stone to the world right now, it's Israel.

Starting point is 00:46:58 And also to see just how Iran and Russia and these other nations that are mentioned there are in the news almost every day. Right now, Iran, Iran negotiations, you've got the Ukraine-Russia war. In fact, you know, the G7 just met here this last week, and the two topics that were front and center were Iran and Russia. You know, the Russia-Ukraine war and these Iran peace negotiations. So to me, I think the thing that probably grabbed me the most is just, is you read about these different nations that were listed there 2,500 years ago. You can look today and say, okay, Israel's back in their land, just like the Bible said, they've got these enemies around them that want to destroy them one of them's Iran you got Russia you got

Starting point is 00:47:42 Turkey and four of these names are from modern day Turkey Erdogan who's the the president there you hates Israel and so it just to me when I look at that and think about this was written by a Jewish prophet 2,500 years ago and you pick it up today and it looks like the newspaper now again you made a good point earlier we don't look at the Bible through current event We don't look at current events and then go, hey, what can I find in the Bible that fits this? We look at current events through the Bible. But we can't help but read the Bible and look at our world today and say, well, this looks more and more like the scenario that Bible predicts in the end times than at any time in history.

Starting point is 00:48:27 Again, I mentioned earlier, all the technology and all these things that the Antichrist can come use, the globalism. So those are some of the things to me that just strikes me how much, what we see today reflects what's in these passages. You know, I've heard Christians express anxiety over things like having children. How can we bring children into this world knowing that things are going to get bad? Whether you are pre-trib or post-trib, there's still people who just worry like, okay, sure, I'll follow the Lord, but I don't know if I can subject my child to the increasing corruption and depravity. what would you say to that fear?

Starting point is 00:49:08 Well, I get asked that a lot at our church by young ladies at our church. You know, my daughter-in-law has asked me about that before. Whenever you talk about the rapture, you know, there's always someone comes up after church and says, you know, I've got a little baby. You know, what's going to happen at the rapture and these various things that can make people afraid. You know, God wants us to live our lives in faith and in trust and in hope in him. And we have to leave a lot of these bigger things to God. you know, I've found in my life a lot of times I'll try to start thinking about things and trying to figure everything out on my own. And it, all it does is kind of just begin to mess you up. And God put us

Starting point is 00:49:46 here in this world and he gave his families, he gave us spouses for those of us who are married. He's given us our parents. He's given us people who love and care about us in a relationship. And God is in relationship with us. And he wants us to be in relationship with others. And the greatest blessing in my life, other than my, my, my relationship. relationship with the Lord is my wife, our two sons, and our seven grandchildren. And they bring tremendous joy to my life. And so we don't want to get so caught up with, you know, what's going to happen in the future and all these bad things happening in the world, you know, that I don't want to have children and enjoy the incredible blessing that they are to us. You know, people have lived

Starting point is 00:50:27 in human history in really, really difficult dark times, really bad times. And they still had children. and they still enjoyed the blessings of this life that God gives to them. We can think, well, it's worse today than it's ever been in history. Some things are, with all the technology we have, there's a lot more dangers out there, but we don't face the day-to-day threats on our life and all those things, at least here in America, the people have in other places. So I just think, you know, we live our life and we save money, we work hard, we do what Proverbs tells us to do.

Starting point is 00:50:59 We do all those things as if, you know, the Lord's not coming back for 100 years, But we also live with an expectancy and anticipation that Jesus could come back at any time. And I know it's hard to hold those things in tension. But as much as I study prophecy and love Bible prophecy, I don't get up every day worrying about what's going to happen to my grandchildren. And these things, I just enjoy them every day. I enjoy the blessings and the good of this life that God's given to me. And 1st Timothy 6 says, God has given us all things richly to enjoy.

Starting point is 00:51:31 And God's a father. He looks down and he wants us to enjoy the blessings of this life that he's given to us. Now it says in that same passage, he wants us to be generous and share. But we need to enjoy these blessings that God has given to us. And again, not to let these things overwhelm us or scare us and cause us to react in ways that I think are unbiblical. Yes, definitely. I think of as you're speaking, Jeremiah 29. Most people know Jeremiah 2911, for I know the plans I have for you, plans of

Starting point is 00:52:02 to prosper you and not to harm you, but backing up, God gives instructions to his people who are in exile, who are suffering, who will be under persecution. And he says, seek the welfare of the city in which I've placed you. And I'm sure there, you know, were generations that were spoken to by God who didn't see the end of that exile, who only lived through suffering. And yet he said, invest in the city where I've placed you. Yes, your exiles. Yes, that this land is not your home. And yet seek the welfare of its inhabitants and Christians are exiles in this life. And I believe that God calls us to do the same thing. Seek justice, love mercy, walk humbly with God. Micah 6-8. And all of that not only advances his kingdom, but all the things that we do, whether it's, you know, raising our

Starting point is 00:52:52 children with joy and with grace, or whether it's, you know, trying to enact justice for unborn children, all of those things in the life of the believer somehow contribute to a greater glory that outweighs all of the trials that we're enduring today. And that's part of the faith aspect of Christianity, is that we don't always see it, but we know that we always say God's eternal plan of redemption is going off without a hitch. And that's where the hope comes from. So I love your perspective, so just scholarly and interesting, but also not one driven at all by anxiety or paranoia, that piece and the knowledge that comes from studying in scripture really does go hand in hand. Tell us, again, where we can get your book, say the title again,

Starting point is 00:53:37 and how people can follow you if they want to. Sure. Yeah, the name of the book, this most recent book I've written, it's called the Persian Storm. It's about what's happening over with Iran today and the United States with Israel. I have a website, Mark L. Hitchcock.com. I have a video. I do a video every week on YouTube. called Marking the End Times. So if people are interested in kind of keeping up with some of the events that I cover there, I'm each week. Again, earlier I mentioned

Starting point is 00:54:04 I'm a pastor of Faith Bible Church, Edmond, Oklahoma. Teach through books of the Bible is kind of the main teaching I do there so people can go there to Faith Bible Church of Edmund, Oklahoma, to our website. They want to listen to messages that we bring there. But I have a website, Mark L.Hitchcock.com

Starting point is 00:54:21 as well. But, you know, the book's available anywhere, you know, all the major outlets. You can find the book there. Wonderful. Well, Pastor, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time and your insight. Well, thank you very much for having me. God bless you.

Starting point is 00:54:35 Appreciate your ministry. Keep up the good work. Thank you very much.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1365 | The Iran Deal’s Surprising Role in End Times Prophecy | Mark Hitchcock

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