Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1387 | Mormon to 'Trans' to Christian: How the Gospel Changed Everything | LaRell Herbert

Episode Date: August 21, 2026

Allie interviews LaRell Herbert, who grew up in the Mormon church and experienced confusion regarding his gender from a young age. Everything he knew to be true was based on LDS doctrine, and when his belief in the “church” dissolved, the belief that he was simply a product of evolution took its place. When his worldview turned to the idea that he was a product of chance and not an intentional creation, the only thing that made sense with his conflicting feelings regarding his sexuality was that he was born in the wrong body. He expressed this heartbreaking information to his wife and began attending therapy with a nonbinary therapist who encouraged him to start receiving hormones and surgical treatment. LaRell went on to identify openly as a woman for seven years. His life changed, however, when he came to the realization that his feelings of being a woman were not something that he was born with but were rooted in childhood trauma. He now has a relationship with Jesus and accepts his true identity as a man made in the image of God. LaRell sits down with Allie to share his story as well as offer helpful insight for those who have loved ones walking through similar challenges. Check out LaRell’s Book: https://www.amazon.com.au/Embracing-Man-Within-Building-Confidence-ebook/dp/B0HC91S66C Read More about LaRell Online: https://larellherbert.com/ https://www.instagram.com/larellh/?hl=en Share the Arrows 2026 is on October 10 in Dallas, Texas! Tickets are on sale now at: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://sharethearrows.com⁠⁠⁠ Share the Arrows is sponsored by: A'del Natural Cosmetics: AdelNaturalCosmetics.com Range Leather: RangeLeather.com/ALLIE We Heart Nutrition: WeHeartNutrition.com Buy Allie's book "Toxic Empathy: How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion": ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.toxicempathy.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ – Time Codes 0:00 Introduction 1:00 Growing Up Mormon & Confused 11:44 Does P*rn Inspire Transgenderism? 21:36 His Marriage to a Woman 37:09 LaRell’s Trans Procedures 40:34 Detransition and Journey to Christ 59:48 Advice to Parents of “Trans” Children – Today's Sponsors: We Heart Nutrition | Check out We Heart Nutrition at ⁠⁠⁠WeHeartNutrition.com⁠⁠⁠ and use the code ALLIE for 20% off. EveryLife | Visit EveryLife.com and use promo code ALLIE10 to get 10% off your first order today! Geviti | Go to gogeviti.com/allie and use code ALLIE for 20% off. Visit worldwatch.news/allie or use promo code ALLIE to start your free trial today. Episodes You May Like: Ep 1381 | He Lived as a 'Trans Christian' for 30 Years Before He Heard This | William Allen https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1381-he-lived-as-a-trans-christian-for-30-years/id1359249098?i=1000780884836 Ep 1359 | After a Hysterectomy and Hormones, Jesus Saved Her from Transgenderism | Haley Furst https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1359-after-a-hysterectomy-and-hormones-jesus/id1359249098?i=1000772374878 --- ► Buy Allie's book "You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love": https://alliebethstuckey.com/book ► Subscribe to the podcast: iTunes: https://apple.co/2UVssnP Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2FwkXxj ► Connect with Allie on Social Media: https://twitter.com/conservmillen https://www.instagram.com/alliebstuckey/ https://facebook.com/allieBlazeTV/ ► "Relatable" merchandise — use promo code ALLIE10 for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

I've learned that being trans is a very selfish thing. It's all about me and my needs and you forget the people around you. My wife and I, we met with the therapist. That therapist ended up telling her, hey, you better support your husband and transitioning to be a woman because if you don't, he's likely to end his own life. When I was baptized, the whole room said, Behold a new creation. And I felt that.

Even though I have to live the rest of my life with the consequences and missing my body parts, I can live in peace with it knowing Jesus now. Laurel, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. All right, you're a Christian evangelist, but for several years, you identified, so-called as a woman, after growing up Mormon or LDS. So let's just go with that first. How did you end up here where you are? That's a really good question, and it's been a long journey.

and yeah, grew up into Mormon church. I was born into the Mormon church when I was, well, yeah, born into the Mormon church. My family goes way back in the church. Brigham Young's brother was my fourth great uncle. Wow. So, yeah, it's a long history in the church. And I've come to learn that there was a lot of programming. that happened to me as I grew up in the church. And it happens to every person that I see grow up in the

LDS Church. And it's a lot of programming around identity. And naturally, as we know, I grew up believing myself to be in the wrong body. And it was largely the teachings of the Mormon Church that instilled in me this belief and this feeling that it was possible to be born in the wrong body at the same time being told that it was not possible. It, like I was raised to believe that if I was male on this earth, that meant I was male in the pre-existence and would be male for all of eternity after this life. And my poor little child, mine, could not wrap around that concept. I thought that is, that seems like such an injustice. I feel like I'm a female in a male body.

yet I'm being told that if I'm male in this life, that means I've always been male and always will be male. And it was so confusing to grow up with that. And I didn't get exposed to the concept of what it meant to be trans till way later in my life in my 20s. And, okay, you said something interesting. You said that simultaneously, like you were taught that you can't be born in the wrong body, but also that you could. And one time I was engaging with a Mormon who made a comment about having gendered souls in preexistence.

And this was actually her justification for the idea that you could be born in the wrong body, that you could identify as something other than what you biologically are. So I'm kind of just throwing this at you as I'm thinking about what you're saying. But could you break that down from a Mormon perspective? how did you feel that simultaneously you're being told, no, you've always been male and will always will be, but also maybe your soul ended up in the wrong place? Yeah, I feel like it was probably my own personal interpretation of what I was being taught because I definitely was not taught in the Mormon church that you could be born in the wrong body,

but I had to make sense of it somehow as I was growing up and to understand the permanence of what I was being told and align that somehow with this weird sensation I had that I was in the wrong body and that I was really supposed to be female and that God somehow made a mistake. And I would, every single night of my life, I would pray to God because I was a believer for most of my life growing up in the LDS Church, even though Mormons have a very different perspective and belief of Jesus and God and things, I was still a believer. And I believed very very, strongly that when I was praying, I was talking to God. And so every night I would beg him either remove this feeling from me that's making me feel like I'm in the wrong body or allow me to

wake up in the right body. I saw only two choices, two possible outcomes. Yeah, you know, I've heard that very similar story from someone that we just talked to a few weeks ago who said the same thing, that every night he would pray that God would change his body or change his mind. So you felt like this from a very early age. Do you remember any moment when you first had this kind of overwhelming sense of, I don't think I'm supposed to be a boy? So my earliest memories are about four years old. And I recognize that most trans people say it was about three or four years old

when they first had this realization. But it also so happens to be that it's also at four years old that you first, start to realize that there is a difference between boys and girls. So just because I started to have those feelings at four years old doesn't necessarily mean, obviously, that that was right, that that was what those feelings meant. But yeah, from about four years on, I started to notice that there is a significant difference between boys and girls, not only in physical appearance, but in how I was treated compared to the girls, what the girls got to do.

I would always imagine myself being with the girls at church and the girls' classes at church and things. And it stuck with me. You know, they have this saying if a kid is insistent, persistent, and consistent or whatever, that that was a sign that they were really trans. And those are the kids that need to transition. And I have people tell me all the time,

well, you just weren't really trans. If you detransitioned now, it means that you weren't trans to begin with. But when you look back on my life experience, I have a very similar experience from a very young age that carried with me throughout my whole life that was very persistent and felt like it was undeniable that I had a female soul, but a male body. And did you tell anyone? I'm assuming this was probably the 80s. And as you said, you had no sense of kind of like what trans was. So were you talking to anyone about your feelings as a child? Absolutely not.

I, in fact, I wrote in my book about an experience when I was four years old when I put on one of my mother's nightgowns. And I went running out excited to show her. And my memory, I can't remember exactly what was said at the time, but I know all of a sudden, I felt shame for wearing it. Like there was this recognition that it is not okay for boys to dress that way. And that was so clear to me growing up in the environment I was in that you just don't mix those lines. You don't cross those boundaries. Boys don't wear girls' clothes.

And you just don't ever do that. And so I lived for much of my life with this feeling and belief about myself deeply locked inside. And it was so painful to know that if I talked to anybody about, I knew I would be seen as mentally ill, and no kid wants that. No child wants to be seen as wrong or broken or mentally ill, and I felt like this was something that was broken about me, perhaps. And perhaps when I was younger, if I felt safe to talk to someone about it,

maybe I might have gotten the help I actually needed way back then to steer me away from those feelings, but I didn't. I kept it deeply locked inside and carried that secret for, for well into my 30s. And what was your upbringing like your family life? What was it like being raised in the Mormon church, especially in a family that was so connected even to Brigham Young? I definitely felt like I had a good childhood.

I had good parents that loved me and my sister and wanted the best for us, provided us everything we needed as we were growing up, paid for our schooling and things. My parents did have some marital issues. There was a lot of anger and fighting, mostly from my mom's side. My dad was more quiet and distant. But yeah, when you look back at my childhood and see that for the most part,

it looked like it was a good childhood. And I lived my whole life telling everybody, I didn't have any trauma. I don't know what could have possibly caused this. because I recognize on a large scale that trauma is often the cause of a person not being able to be who they are, not being able to be okay with their own body. And so looking back in my life, I thought surely there was some trauma experience, but for the most part, my childhood was just happy and loving. And like I said, I had my needs met. there were definitely some attunement needs that were not met where my mom and dad both had their own childhood traumas and inability to show up for me in ways.

But for the most part, they showed up pretty well other than the fighting and anger and certain typical issues that happen in families. Quick pause to tell you about our first sponsor. It's a WeHeart Nutrition. This is where I get all of my vitamins from. my probiotics, my prenatals, my iron, my magnesium, my omega-3s. I take it all from we heart nutrition. And the reason I'm so picky about my supplements is because I don't want to spend all this money and take this time organizing all of my supplements every night if the

nutrients aren't actually going to be absorbed by my body. Not all supplements are created equal. Some supplements don't have ingredients that come in something called a bioavail available form so that your body can actually absorb it. But sometimes these supplements are just giving you the synthetic version of these nutrients and your body just rejects it all together. You don't want to do that. You want to make sure that you are actually getting the nutrients that you need from your vitamins.

That's why I trust WeHeart Nutrition. This has been a game changer for my health, for my immune system, my hair, skin, and nails. I feel a lot more energized this pregnancy. I think it's because this is my first pregnancy with my WeHeart Nutrition, prenatal vitamins. They're a Christian family-owned company. They are so awesome.

They're totally the real deal. You will love the change you feel, the health you feel when you switch to Weheart Nutrition. Go to Weheartnutrition.com. Use code Alley. You'll get an extra 20% off. Weheartnutrition.com code Alley. You've talked about your struggle with pornography at some point in your life

and how through pornography and what you saw there, you actually were able to recall sexual abuse that you endured when you were young. Can you talk more about that? Yeah. So this has been a really complex thing for me to unravel. And it kind of has come together piece by piece over years of therapy and self-reflection and self-healing work. But essentially what I realized was when I was a teenager and got the Internet and started

to explore what was available out there. The teachings of the Mormon Church instilled in me that viewing pornography was an absolute sin, was something you should not do whatsoever. And I had this weird experience where I, when I started exploring pornography, I realized that there was a very particular flavor of pornography that was my poison, you might say. Everybody has what works for them the best. And this happened to be BDSM pornography. And I didn't understand why at the time.

But the more I looked back in my childhood and did self-healing work, I had this repressed memory from when I was five years old come up, where I was restrained as just a child, restrained by this electrical cord and violated sexually. And because the memories weren't super clear, I just kind of pushed it to the back burner for the longest time. But the more I looked at fascinating things in my life, like my trans identity, believing myself to be a female, and this weird attraction to BDSM porn that I couldn't explain, it all kind of came to. together and I realized what was driving that. Together with the teachings of the Mormon church that made me feel like it was wrong to have sexual feelings for someone I wasn't married to, yet here I was

a young man, an end of my teenage years when I discovered pornography, and I discovered that it did excite feelings in me. Yet the church is telling me that my eternal salvation is on the line if I pursue such a thing, but the feelings were so strong, and I was a teenager, and I had to do this weird psychological dance in my mind to figure out how to make it okay. And so not only was I attracted to BDSM pornography, but I also would specifically search for fully clothed BDSM pornography, which does exist, believe it or not. And because that was my way of getting around the fact that that I was told I shouldn't be viewing it, yet I had these feelings making me want it. And then my feeling like I was a female and a male body played into that as well,

that I started envisioning myself in the shoes of the women in the pornography, and that was the only thing that would do it for me. and also it felt like a victimless crime. If I could pleasure myself to the thought of me being in their shoes in the scenario, then it wasn't a sin in my mind. It was the craziest thing that I had to do. Yeah, that is actually, it seems very common, the connection between BDSM and men identifying as women and connecting female identity.

and I can't speak for your psychology on this, but connecting the female identity with humiliation and with torture and placing yourself in the position of being a victim of degradation, there is some strange connection to the sexual arousal with that and this idea that you were born in the wrong body. I've actually seen that over and over again

in the so-called trans community. And I'm curious if you think that that and your addiction to that kind of, I mean, all porn is really dark and it's all simple and it's all wrong, but that very dark, dark and violent form of pornography, do you feel like it exacerbated and even empowered some of those feelings that you had? Did it make it worse, your struggle of feeling like you were born in the wrong body? Absolutely. And this is one of the things that I like to teach people now is that sexuality can be programmed. We, of course, all are born with the biological sex tendencies that are in us because we're male or female.

And attraction to the opposite sex is natural to one's biology. If that differs at all in your psyche, in your system, that means that something happened, some sequence of experience happened to you as a child or you were exposed to things in a certain sequence that made you develop the perspective you have now. And I recognize that my own sexuality was very much programmed by viewing that pornography, by repetitively exciting those feelings in my body attached to the thoughts that would come up. It absolutely concreted in my system this identity as female. As I continued to pleasure myself to the thought of that, it became my identity. And I know not everyone will agree that that was their experience.

Not every trans person could say they have that same experience, but what my experience made me aware of is that I'm not unique. There are many out there that have the same or very similar experience as me. And that's why I like to do what I do and share my story so that in the hopes that I can reach the hearts of some who are struggling with similar things that I did. Yeah. And okay, so you struggled with this. You felt very strongly, especially as you became addicted to this kind of pornography. And by the way, the point that you made about sexuality, that it can be programmed. I also think that can be true, not necessarily in your case,

but it also can be true of so-called gender identity. I do think that there are some men that start to watch this kind of pornography who didn't feel those consistent, persistent feelings before. but it started to be programmed into them. When you start picturing yourself as a person in these kind of depictions, of course, you're going to start feeling like, well, this is really me, this is who I am. So such an important point that you make that goes against the sexual ideology of our secular culture today, which says that you're born with all of your sexual feelings, with all of your identity feelings, they're completely innate.

you cannot change them, especially if you're like part of LGBTQ, those cannot be changed. But what you're saying is that, well, actually what you watch and what you imbibe can determine how you feel and then who you think you are, right? Absolutely. Yeah, I've recently been messaging someone who thought he was a female trapped in a male body because every time he would try to have sex with his girlfriend, the only way it would work for him was to put himself into the mentality that he was a female in the scenario. And so I explained to him this concept that sexuality can be programmed and that the more you recite in your mind the truth of who you are, a man, and allow yourself to be excited to those thoughts, the more it will reprogram you.

And he has reported back to me consistent improvement. And he has thanked me so much for helping him recognize that. And he feels like his sex life is so much healthier now. And now he doesn't feel like he needs to be a woman anymore. It's the craziest thing what can happen with repetitive programming of our mind and psyche. And that is absolutely what happened to me. I mean, some people like to hear me talk about that and then tell me, you were just an autogynafile, and that's different than being trans.

But I kind of have both. I had that experience, but I also had the insistent, persistent feeling ever since I was a child that I was in the wrong body. So it's also so confusing to try to sort out. I mean, there is no one thing that I could look back on my life and say that that was what caused these feelings. and nobody really can, but there are certain things we can look back on that we can definitely say that definitely had a contributing factor, and when everything is brought together, then it results in a concrete identity. Yeah.

And also, just to note, obviously, on this show, we talk a lot about biblical sexuality, and we would never encourage someone to be having sex outside of, marriage like with your girlfriend your sex life should be contained to your marriage but obviously it is a good thing if someone is realizing that okay they can't identify as woman they can't identify as the opposite opposite sex but of course i just wanted to clarify our position on that that sex should only be within marriage um and for you you did get married and even though you had these feelings and you were confused you um got married to a woman and she didn't know who you felt like you were on the inside. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah, my whole life, even though I felt

like I was a girl myself inside, I always had an attraction to women, which was my natural male biology coming into play. And even though I struggled with this feeling that I was perhaps female, there was part of me that thought, maybe somehow this is my psyche's way of me wanting to be with a woman that somehow confused it and turned out turned it into me wanting to be a woman. And so I met my wife and we fell in love and the trans feelings kind of got put to the side. And I thought that perhaps marrying her would allow those feelings to dissolve in me. Because like I said, maybe it was the desire to be with a woman that made me feel I was a woman. But then shortly after I got married and was with my wife for a while, it became very clear that those feelings were absolutely not going away, that they were just as strong and present as they ever were.

And so then, yeah, I had to one evening break the news to her that I'm, I've been carrying this my whole life, the secret that I want to be a woman and that I really feel like I am a woman. It's not that I wanted to be a woman. It's that I honestly felt like I was and that I just needed to align myself with the truth of who I really was. Quick pause to tell you about World Watch. All right. If you want your kids and especially your teens to kind of know what's going on in the world, but at the same time, you don't want them watching the mainstream media. You don't want them scrolling through their phones to figure out what's going on.

You want to make sure that they're actually getting informed in a clear nonsense sensational and most importantly biblical way, then you need to try World Watch. This is a great way to help your teens stay informed without being overwhelmed. They deliver fact-based news from a Christian worldview for just 10 minutes a day. It helps them understand what's going on in the world, all with clarity, context, and hope. No clickbait, no sensationalism, and certainly no left-wing propaganda. World Watch gives families a trusted source for current events that sparks curiosity, encourages meaningful conversations and helps teens develop discernment

through a biblical perspective. Go to worldwatch. dot news slash alley. Use code alley and you'll get a totally free 30 day trial. Worldwatch. news slash alley code alley. How did you, how did that develop when you were married? When did it come to a head and you felt like, okay,

I got a letter now. That was in the early part of 2017, I think. I think we got married in September of 2016. And so we had been married for a little while. And then we were sitting at home, and the show Gender Revolution with Katie Couric came on the TV, and we watched it because it was fascinating to us. And it was, of course, was very fascinating to me

because I identified with the people that were in the show. My wife has always been interested in cycling. and went to school to be a therapist and things. So she was interested in it for that aspect, I think. But at one part of the show, it showed this husband and wife who the husband transitioned to be a woman and they continued to live life happily together. And I think it was at that point of the show that my wife paused it and she turned to me and asked, is this what you want? Do you want to take female hormones and actually live as a woman? because at this point she knew I liked to cross-dress.

She knew I liked wearing women's clothing, but she didn't know just how deep that went until this moment. And sorry, just to clarify, were you still, were you still a Mormon at this point? I had just left the Mormon church just right before she and I got married. I was still Mormon when we met, but wasn't really active in the church. I was active right up till before we met. And when I met her, my intention was to convert her and baptize her into the Mormon church, actually. Okay.

So you had left. And I guess before we get into the rest of your transition process, we should pause and talk about that for a second. The fact that you left the Mormon church and why you decided to leave. Did it have to do with your confusion about gender and sexuality? Perhaps. I think maybe that was the only way I could make sense of it, because as long as I was in the church, obviously the church's doctrine was telling me that that was not possible, that if I was male here, I was always male. And so I think it began when I went inactive, when I stopped going to church as much,

it allowed me to open my thoughts a little more, and then my uncle shared with me a book called The Changing World of Mormonism. And when I read that book, it blew my mind, because here I'd lived my entire life in the Mormon church with every perspective and belief system in my entire being was formed around the doctrine of the church. I was just born into it and knew not to question it, was told never to. read any materials that disagreed with the church. We didn't even read Christian authors because a Christian author was not LDS and therefore would have a tendency to teach things we didn't believe in

and would take us away. And so my whole identity and reality and everything was built around the doctrine of the LDS Church. So when that dissolved in 2016, my whole world fell apart. I I felt so lost because everything I knew was based on the doctrine of the church. And all of a sudden, it just dissolved and fell out from under me. And it was while I was still in the church, that it kept me still living as a man. I had the feelings that I was a female inside, but as long as I still was in the church, it had that foundation for me to believe that perhaps it is true that I was always male and always will be. But as soon as that dissolved my belief in the church, then all of that went away.

And now all of a sudden I saw myself as a human being as just a product of evolution. And once I saw myself as a product of evolution, then that allowed me to take on this belief system that maybe it really is possible that there was a mistake. And now I didn't believe in God anymore, but I thought maybe there was just some biological, mishap that happened in me and it allowed me to go full speed ahead with my trans identity. That's so interesting. And what did your wife think about it when you turned to her, I guess, when you were watching this in 2016 and you kind of confirmed, yeah, that's the direction I might want to go. It rocked her poor little world.

She was not a lesbian. She married a man. It was always her dream to marry a man. And we had a wonderful wedding, wonderful honeymoon. She married me as a man. And now here I am telling her I can't be a man. And it was very, very difficult for her to hear that. And of course, we were scheduled to be flying to Florida.

to the next morning. And so we did not get any sleep that night as we stayed up all night talking about this and what it meant, what it meant for our future together. It was quite the disruption in our marriage for sure. Yeah, I can imagine. So what happened from there after that night? So we continued to talk about it, but I could tell that it was really causing her a lot of distress, and I didn't want to cause her distress, even though I felt like I had to pursue being a woman in order to be happy. I at some point told her, basically, I can't go on living if I can't do this. And so she, so I knew I needed to seek out a therapist, for one, because I wanted a therapist that would help us, I think it was largely for selfish reasons at the time. I've,

I've learned that being trans is a very selfish thing. It's all about me and my needs. and what can I do for myself to be happy and you forget the people around you. Your partner becomes the forgotten partner and often referred to as a trans widow when they can't stick it out with the person that transitions. And my wife, she loved me so much and it just it caused her so much distress that I eventually told her, okay, I'm just going to continue being your man it's going to be okay we're not i'm not going to transition but then when i realized no that's not going to happen that's not possible i have to transition so i sought out a therapist we met with the therapist both my my wife and i numerous times in hopes that the therapist would

kind of talk her through it and help her understand it that therapist ended up telling her the same thing hey you better support your husband and transitioning to be a woman because if you don't he's to end his own life. And so she was put in this position that because she loved me, she had no choice but to support me, even though she knew it was not right, was not good. But I feel like after a while, she kind of learned that she had to support me in order to keep me and our love together. She had to be supportive. Okay. And then tell me about your transition process, about the, hormones about the surgeries and really feeling like, okay, I'm manifesting this lifelong desire.

I'm finally going to feel reconciled internally. Yeah. So I started seeing that therapist in 2017, and I knew that that was a necessary step to getting a letter of support for the female hormones that I wanted to start taking. And so it was after just a couple sessions with her with this therapist. The therapist identified as non-binary, by the way. And so the therapist really quickly wrote me a letter for female hormones, as could be expected. If she didn't, she would be denying her own existence as a trans person.

So I got that letter after just a couple visits. She determined that it was medically necessary for me to try. transition, that it was in my best interest. And so I remember taking that first estrogen pill and how euphoric it was, because after all my life years up to this point that I had been dreaming about this day, went most of my life thinking it was never going to be possible for me to transition because I thought the testosterone caused me to be too much of a man. It's never going to happen. But when I took that first estrogen pill. I was so happy and euphoric. And then I was excited for the changes because I had spent a lot of time on YouTube watching other trans people and the progress videos they would post.

And I got myself all hyped up and excited about the changes that would happen to my body. And I started noticing my breast tissue started to grow. My body hair went away. My face started to soften a little bit. And I loved those changes. It felt so right and real. I was still living as a man in the world for the most part. And then towards the end of 2017, after I had been on female hormones for a period, my wife and I went up to Denver and got me a wig

because I've been bald since my early 20s. I couldn't grow my hair out. So getting a wig was a huge step that we took to my female presentation. but even after getting the wig, I continued to live as a man for a while, and it wasn't until towards the end of 2017 that I finally made the decision, okay, I've been on the hormones long enough, I'm seeing enough changes, I'm feeling good about this, now it's time to go full time. And so there was a very particular day where I decided, okay, from now on, I am going

out as my female self, never again as my male self, and that was quite the step to reach. I knew I didn't pass. I've never been one of those trans people with a passing privilege, but I also knew I couldn't keep that from letting me live my life. I had to get used to the fact that people were looking at me funny. And I was able to get to where I could just ignore their looks and just mostly live my life as my happy female self for a time. Next sponsor is Jevity.

If you are looking to take your health into your own, you're tired of being told over and over again that this fatigue, that these symptoms that you're feeling, oh, it's just stress. It's just mom life. It's just everything that you have going on. Once you're in a less busy season, you'll feel better. Something is telling you that might not be true. You might be missing a nutrient. Something might be off hormonally. Maybe it's your thyroid. There's only one way to find out. And that's comprehensive blood work. Sometimes the blood work that you get at the doctor, it's just not enough. They're telling you that it's enough, but they're only measuring, say three parts of your thyroid, three thyroid hormones and not a full thyroid panel,

you really need a comprehensive view of what's going on in your body, hormonally, nutrition-wise, everything. And that's what you get from Jevity. They send you a mobile phobotomist, comes right to you wherever you are, could be your office, could be your home, she draws your blood, she takes the vials, ships them off. And then in your Jevity app, in your profile, just a few days later, you will see all of your results and a detailed breakdown by a doctor in video. form of what your results actually mean and what you need to be doing, what supplements you need to be

taking, what you might need to see a specialist for where you should go, what diet and exercise changes you should make. It's really incredible. It was a game changer for me, game changer for chief related bro too. We love Jevity. Go to gogevity.com slash Alley for 20% off. Gogevity.com and I was living as a woman for two years. And then 2019 came and I had satisfied the requirement. of living in role for two years. That was the Kaiser Permanente insurance is who I went through at the time. And that was their requirement that I live in role

for two years and taking female hormones for that long. And so I worked with them to schedule my surgery because some trans people are fine without having the surgery. I can't personally understand that because if you fully identify with the opposite sex, then that means that you want your body, to align with that belief and perspective about yourself. So in 2019, that surgery that I was having was like an absolute dream come true.

It felt like the most right thing I could possibly have ever done for myself. And it was. In July of 2019, I had the surgery, woke up feeling ecstatic to finally be in the right body. And for four additional years, I lived perfectly happy thinking it truly was. the best thing I ever did for myself. Wow. Okay. So just to clarify, you had top and bottom surgery?

Luckily, no. I mean, luckily. I never had top surgery, only bottom surgery. So, yeah, I say luckily because that would have been an additional thing. I would have had to undo. My breast tissue did grow on the hormones, so I still to this day have more breast tissue than I would like, but not enough to justify having surgery.

And your wife for this period through 2019, she stuck by you. Yes. There was a lot of struggles in our marriage during that time. I slept in the basement a lot, especially after surgery, because it brought up a lot between us. But she still loved me and stayed by my side. We didn't have any period of separation even during that time other than just me sleeping in another room. their room. And did the surgery and its effects have the, have the outcome that you hoped emotionally? Did you feel a sense of, wow, I am finally who I've always wanted to be? And at what point did you

stop feeling that way? Because clearly here you are sitting here, you are a man. And so at some point, you must have realized, okay, all of that euphoria that I had been feeling from identifying as a woman and trying to even surgically change my appearance to be a woman, it's not getting me where I wanted to go. Yeah. Like I said, for four years, it did remain something I was absolutely ecstatic about. It did make me feel emotionally good in my body. I was so happy to be rid of what I saw as a growth or tumor on my body.

And I was just living my life. Everything was great and wonderful. But I believe in always growing, learning and growing and bettering myself. And that never stopped, even though I transitioned to live as a woman, this desire to continue learning about what makes me tick. What makes anybody tick continued in me. And so in 2003, I had been living perfectly happy. as my female self and the surgery was great except for the fact that the opening had closed because I couldn't keep it open. If you know the graphic nature of the surgery is it's

basically an open wound that you have to keep open. But I ended up not keeping it open. And so there were certain aspects of it that ended up not being true to what I thought it would be in the end. But in 2023, I continued to look back on my life and still trying to understand, okay, what, maybe there was something that caused me

to do this whole thing. I still believed I was born with it. I believed I had been born with this identity, but at the same time, I was curious. I liked to remain curious about things. And so I was curious about what made me go down that route. And so I started researching

psychology. My wife, being into therapy had introduced me to these certain authors like Dr. Richard Schwartz and internal family systems therapy. And I started doing IFS therapy myself, receiving IFS therapy from therapists, and I became so fascinated by it and felt like it was making such a difference in my life that I decided to take a training in it myself. I still was very happy as a woman, mind you. And I'm taking this IFS training course to learn how to do internal family systems or parts work therapy myself. And during the course, one of the other students who was taking the course asked the instructor, so what about a trans identity? Is that a part, as in one of these parts of our internal system or protective parts?

And the instructor said, yes, Dr. Richard Schwartz does believe that a trans identity. is a part. And as soon as she said that my whole world began to spin, because if that was true, all of a sudden that meant that all of my surgery, my transition and everything was based on trauma, was based on past experiences and this part trying to do something for me, trying to protect me from something. And when that happened, I had to take an honest look at my female identity and with curiosity recognized that what if it was caused by something from my past? What if this was not something I was born with? And in a matter of days, everything I had learned about myself and psychology and God just kind of synthesized into this clear picture where all of a sudden I found

myself sitting there realizing I cannot continue living as a woman. This does not make any sense whatsoever. And it was at the same time, I simultaneously came back to a belief in God, which I had not had for many years at that point. But once I allowed myself the faith that perhaps God does exist, then that was one of the things that allowed me. It was actually looking at a flower. I looked at a flower and how delicate it was and how the petals were so perfectly matched. And then I looked at a whole field of flowers and I thought, there was something behind that. That was not by chance. And then it caused me to look at myself.

Well, I wasn't by chance either. I'm not, I wasn't just born this way. Every personality trait that I have, every personality trait anybody has is driven from past experiences and interactions that we've had and how we relate to other people. And so, yeah, long story short, it just, within a matter of days, my whole gender identity just dissolved right before my eyes. And this was something I was so sure. sure about that I had permanent surgery to my body to align with it. And so it, it was totally devastating

that my whole identity just completely disintegrated. Wow. And what came first, becoming a Christian, because you said that you started believing in God, which is obviously not the same thing as becoming a Christian. And at the same time, you're kind of deconstructing what you thought was an immutable part of your identity. So tell me about kind of like the time, you're, you're kind of like the timeline how those things broke down when you actually believed in the gospel met Jesus and how those things kind of played out together. Yeah. Yeah. So as you acknowledged, being a Christian is very different than my belief in God at that time. I was just coming out of new age spirituality. And so my belief in God shifted from this universal consciousness

belief where I believe that we are all basically what Jesus was and that we all had access to the same consciousness he did, but it was still a very non-personalized. It was a very non-personalized belief in God. Like I saw God is more of this energy or pattern. But that was my gateway, really, back to Jesus, because that was what allowed me. me to shift my perspective from Christ consciousness or universal consciousness to the fact that maybe there really is an entity, a God that has more of a organized intelligence than just this universal consciousness. And once I allowed myself that belief, then my wife had an experience

where she met Jesus in our house. My wife was never Christian. She wasn't a believer. She wasn't wasn't even asking for it, but one day Jesus just showed up to her and rescued her. And I'm watching this still unable to accept Jesus myself. And I basically told her, well, that's great for you. I'm glad you have that. But I just, I can't. And so this went on for a number of weeks. This was after I detransitioned, of course.

I had been living as a man for quite a while, for a year and a half, actually. I detransitioned and was living for a year and a half. And my wife had heard Jesus coming to Jesus moment. And I watched that, couldn't get on board. But then one afternoon, I came to the realization that faith is very much a necessary part of a belief in God. There was, I'm the kind of person that always wanted proof. And those kind of people who want proof and demand proof, they don't give themselves the, the grace to have some faith.

And throughout the Bible, it talks about how necessary faith is. And so I said one time, okay, I'm going to have the faith. I'm going to ask Jesus to show me your love for me. And that was the exact statement I asked him, Jesus, show me your love for me. Because I was struggling with a lot of feelings of shame for having done what I did to myself, damaging my body permanently, something I could never undo. And I just wanted to feel the same love of Jesus that my wife was feeling. And when I asked that, Jesus, show me your love for me.

All of a sudden, I felt myself just enveloped in this incredible feeling of warmth and love. And then from there, he showed me a vision of a tree and that the tree represented my life. and all the scars that the tree had was like my life and the things that happened to me, body parts cut off that then healed over but weren't replaced and remained as a reminder of my past experiences. And it was such a profound experience that I had never had before. Growing up in the Mormon Church, I'd hear people talk about their spiritual encounters with God and things. I never experienced such a thing until this day, a year and a half after I detransitioned, and I was struggling so much finally to a low in my life, I guess, where I was humbled

enough by God and the experiences I went through to finally reach out to him. Say, Father, show me your love for me. And like I said, it was such a profound experience that I came out of it, unable to deny it anymore. I could no longer deny the existence of Jesus and what he did for us. And it has been so amazing to come back. Well, like I said, I never actually had the belief in the first place, but to come to a belief and knowing Jesus the way I do now has been absolutely profound. and it has been instrumental in me being able to live a happy life now, having made the decisions I did. When I was baptized, the whole room said, behold, a new creation.

And I felt that in all of my being. Like, I had to behold a new creation because I am a new creation. And now I am able to not hate myself for the decisions I made, even though I have to live. the rest of my life with the consequences and missing my body parts, I can live in peace with it knowing Jesus now. Wow. And tell me what it was like going to church and that experience, going to a non-Mormon church, which I assume was a pretty novel experience for you and how that contributed to your faith. The church that we became a part of, it's a small house church. It's non-corporate and the members of this church were in our community. They would work often in

this coffee shop that I would frequent. I would go to this coffee shop. It's Christian-owned, but even when I was in my trans identity, I would go there knowing it was a Christian-owned coffee shop and that I was likely going to be judged by the people there. I thought I would be. Come to find out these are true Christians, the people that were there at this coffee shop that I would interact with. And I interacted. with them for years, having no idea who they were, other than just acquaintances I'd see at the coffee shop. Well, years after interacting with them and going there and realizing they just are so loving and kind, even though I'm clearly a man in a dress, they're treating me loving and kind. And it

confused me because I always believed that Christians were closed-minded and judgmental. And some can be, but I learned that these people were very open-minded and loving and friendly. They had their convictions, their faith convictions. They knew what I was doing was wrong, which is why they began praying for me. They together would pray for me to come out of this delusion, and I didn't know that until after I returned a living as a man, and they told me, oh, yeah, we were watching you all along and we're praying for you and your wife. and it was only then that I realized that I felt those prayers.

They were so powerful. They helped me so much through that time and feeling of their love, their love of Jesus and their love for me, despite my clear being dressed as a woman. When my wife and I realized that these were the people that had this small house church, it just felt so rough. to do life with them, to fall into their church. Yeah.

Wow, interesting. So you actually knew these people before you detransitioned, before you became a Christian, and it was only after you detransitioned, and then a year and a half later became a Christian after detransitioning that you realized, oh, these people who had been praying for me that I knew from this coffee shop,

they also are these Christians with this, with this house church. That's incredible. Just the power of prayer. They're uncompromising on the truth while also loving you and also being your friend and building that relationship with you.

That's incredible. Yeah, it was. It was so powerful. And it was one of, it was a key part of my return to faith to see that there are people that truly demonstrate the love of Jesus. Wow, that's kind of,

it's very similar to Rosaria Butterfield. if you're familiar with her, she lived her life as a lesbian in a relationship for a very long time. And then it was the hospitality of the Christians who live next door who invited her into their home and just loved her, answered her questions, but also stood strong on the truth and told her the truth about the gospel and what God's word says. And it was the combination of their hospitality and kindness with their anchoring in the truth that eventually God used to bring her to himself. that's just a really good lesson for all of us. Next sponsor is Every Life. Every Life is America's pro-life diaper company.

You would think that every diaper company would be pro-life just for the fact that this is your target market. Like you need more babies to sell more diapers. Unfortunately, so many diaper companies, even the ones that you and I have loved in the past, the more natural options, they donate to Planned Parenthood to Democrat politicians that are promoting abortion. You don't want your dollars to align with those. kinds of causes that you and I don't believe in. Instead, we should be supporting companies that

not only support pro-life pregnancy centers and support their adopting and pregnant employees and make sure that moms everywhere are equipped with the resources they need to choose life and raise their babies well, but also that sell an incredible product. That is certainly true of every life. We've been using Every Life diapers and pull-ups. We're about to be in the diaper stage. Again, we will definitely be using Every Life when our new baby. comes this fall. And I just love partnering with them. Their products are so good.

They also have this really cute belt bag that's out. This is great for moms on the go. You just need something quick to stick your phone in, to stick your wallet in. It's nylon. And so it's totally waterproof, easy to clean. And it comes in a lot of really cute options. Go to everylife.com. Use code Alley 10.

You'll get 10% off your first order. Everylife.com code Allie 10. You and your wife, you're married, still married. And now Christians. and now you've become this person who shares your incredible testimony online, trying to help people with their own struggles, telling them about the truth of the gospel. Is this still something, this feeling of being trapped in the wrong body, that you still find yourself struggling with today?

Or do you feel like the Lord has completely rid you of those feelings? He has amazingly, completely rid me of those feelings. That was something that I struggled with my entire life. Yeah, it was so strong in me, obviously, to cause me to do such permanent damage to my body in answer to that. But when I recognized what caused the feelings and when I recognized that it was not something I was born with and that it was a product of past experiences and things, it made it easy for me to do the work necessary to completely dissolve it. because it didn't completely go away just because I recognized where it came from. But with the love of Jesus and the help of God, I was able to do the personal work necessary to push it the rest of the way out of my system.

Yeah. I think once we realize that, like, God is the only immutable one. His characteristics are immutable, and they don't change. And yes, we all have us in nature that we're born with, but these parts of our identity or the very strong temptations or feelings or what we feel oriented toward don't define us. They're not unchanging. And they don't tell us who we are.

Only the immutable creator can tell us who we are. And the identity that he gives us in Christ trumps any other identity that we have. and it's so counter to what the world tells us about, okay, however you feel in the moment is who you are. And trying to change that or repress that is a form of oppression that you need to be freed from by liberating yourself and just pursuing them. You tried that. You tried that because you felt that way too. And then you found, okay, this actually didn't give me all the satisfaction that I was looking for ultimately. Yeah, there was a time where I've been.

I felt like it did give me all the satisfaction I was looking for. But, but yeah, there is an absolute benefit to learning how to surrender. The concept of surrender. And a lot of people think that means giving up control. But when you're surrendering to God and what God's desire is for you, it's not actually giving up control. In fact, God loves us so much and wants the best for us. And he created us the way we were surrendering to God's will and his design for us is actually freedom for us. And that's what I've experienced when I detransitioned and surrendered to the fact that I am male.

It allowed me so much more freedom in the world to be able to live life as the man I was created to be, to absolutely, truly love and cherish the body. the temple that I was provided for this life. You know, something in the New Age spirituality world, you're constantly striving for what's after this life. Where are we going after this life? Understanding that you're more than just this body, you're this consciousness that will go on forever. And that's all that New Age is about.

And coming back to Jesus, it's like, I finally can live this life, not spending so much of it worrying about what's coming. what's coming next, but actually truly cherish this body and this life and live so happy and free. There is an absolute freedom in surrendering to God's design. Absolutely. Can you tell me what advice would you give specifically to parents out there, whose kids, whose teens, or even their adult children who say that either I'm struggling with this and I know that it's not right, but I really feel this way.

Or I know there's some parents out there whose child really believes I was born in the wrong body. If you don't affirm this, then they're going to hear the same thing that your wife heard, that this, that, you know, I'm going to commit suicide if you don't support me. Can you give some advice, some wisdom, some encouragement to parents who might be in that situation right now? Yes. I love this question because being who I am,

and doing what I do, I do get reached out to by a lot of parents. I get a lot of emails, a lot of messages on Instagram from desperate parents who want, who want answers, who want information. And what I've perceived is that they perceive me as someone who has come out of it. So clearly I must have the answers. And so they come to me asking, is there anything I can tell my trans kid that will snap them out of this? And my answer is, no, there's not, but there is hope. For one, I want all parents of trans kids to know that the majority of kids identifying as trans now are because of social contagion,

which means it will go away eventually. They will grow out of it. The majority of them now will. Contrary to what the trans ideologues want to say, that only 1% actually regret it and detransition, we are seeing such a large number of young kids jumping on this transition train now because of social contagion and the idea that it's going to make them happier, that there is also, likewise, or because of that, going to be a tremendous number of desisters and detransitioners when they come out of it. So I give parents that hope to hold on to knowing that there is very good

chance your kid is going to grow out of this after a few years. And to those, you know, to those those who are struggling with their kids, a lot of kids, if they sense that their parent is not in agreement with their trans identity, not using their preferred pronouns and things, they will cut the parents off. And this comes at the advice from their therapist as well. You need to cut your parents out. They're not supportive of you. And once you're cut out of their life, your ability to influence them with good is minimized. You can still pray for them, and that's wonderful. But if you have no contact with them, you're not going to be able to provide them much influence or help as it is.

So one of the number one suggestions I give to parents now is to maintain the connection. Keep that connection open with your kid. I know it goes against your convictions and your beliefs, and you don't need to falter on your own convictions of beliefs. maintain that awareness of what you know to be true. You know what you birthed. You know your son is a boy and always will be. You don't have to go to falter on your own conviction about that, but do whatever you have to do to keep that connection open. Family is one of the, it's like the most important thing on this earth is the family connections, the family unit, the enemy, Satan is constantly trying to attack that. And he's doing that with this, this, trans identity and convincing kids to cut their parents out of their life. That's how he's severing family ties. And so the best thing as a parent you can do, in my opinion, from my personal experience and what I've observed is to maintain that connection with your kid, even if it's uncomfortable, even if it requires you. I mean, you don't have to use their chosen pronouns because that would be

lying. You would be being dishonest to yourself and them by doing so. But try to find ways to maintain and peace and connection and that love and your kid will sense that and as they grow older or if they're an adult even they will witness that I witness this with my own parents my my parents maintained a connection with me even though they completely disagreed with what I was doing they knew what I was doing was wrong and defying my biology and everything but they stayed connected to me and I watched that I watched their love much like the people the Christians in the coffee shop whose love I witnessed continue on. And that was what allowed me when I came out of my trans identity

to return to my family. Had I completely disconnected from them and not had that connection maintained, who knows what might have been different in my life? Maybe I wouldn't have detransitioned as early as I did or something. I don't know. But yeah, I think the most important thing parents can do is to maintain a connection. You're not going to change the kid's mind.

You can't talk them out of it. Well, thank you so much for lending your insight. And thank you so much for sharing your testimony and how you are helping others see the truth about biology and identity and the freedom that they can find in Christ. I really appreciate that. And we've got your information, the description of this episode, that people can find you on social media and follow you. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on. Yeah, I really appreciate it too. And I just self-published the book called Embracing the Man Within that takes my story and uses it as lessons for men who struggle with shame and grief and an inability to love who they are.

And I just, I would love if as many people as possible could read that because I really believe there's a lot of good information there. Yeah, embracing the man within. Thank you so much for taking the time to share. Thank you so much.