Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1388 | I Was Wrong About Lindsay Clancy. Why I’ve Changed My Mind

Starting point is 00:00:00 This picture that has been painted and that I at least partly believe that this was a woman who was desperately trying to get help and was completely recklessly given all of these medications that drove her into this psychotic episode. Lindsay Clancy was never diagnosed, has never been diagnosed with postpartum depression, anxiety or psychosis. Some of the things that you have believed that I believe, they just aren't true. Hey, y'all, welcome to Relatable. Happy Wednesday. Hope everyone has had a wonderful week so far. The Lindsay Clancy trial is wrapping up. And at the time of this recording, the prosecution and defense

Starting point is 00:00:49 are scheduled to deliver their closing arguments tomorrow. And then the jury will decide the verdict in the coming days. So I want to catch you up to speed. I want to take you through the biggest takeaways of the last week and reveal information to you that you may not have realized about Lindsay, about this case, things that I did not realize. And I also want to admit what I think I got wrong when I began discussing this trial and discussing this tragedy at the beginning of this month. So let's back up just a little bit. I am not going to exhaustively tell you about Lindsay Clancy and about everything that happened because we've already done two episodes on this. We did one, as I said, at the beginning of August. We did one, I believe it was last week.

Starting point is 00:01:35 talking about some of the conspiracy theories or just the general theories surrounding this case and her husband Patrick. And so you can go back and listen to or watch those previous episodes. If you're like, I don't know anything that's going on, you can get the details there. The case is now approaching its conclusion after nearly a month of testimony. Keep in mind, the crime occurred, the killings of her children occurred in January of 2023. And so now we're three and a half years, three plus years later, finally figuring out what justice looks like for these three children. So first, before we even get into everything that's happened or some of the things that have happened in the trial over the past week, there's just one thing I want to note.

Starting point is 00:02:23 So originally when I talked about this case, I really wanted to highlight the pharmaceuticals that had been prescribed to Lindsay Clancy. And I wanted to focus. on that exactly what their side effects were, what some of their interactions were. And I wanted to emphasize what I saw and still do see in many ways, the irresponsibility of the medical practitioners in her life, because that signified a crossover that we discuss a lot, women, women's health, motherhood, and also what I think is a dereliction of duty by these pharmaceutical companies and some of these doctors that over-prescribe psychiatric medications that so often make matters worse when it comes to depression, when it comes to anxiety.

Starting point is 00:03:13 And so we went through the list of the 13 medications that had been prescribed to her in a matter of a few months, not all at the same time, but sometimes they were at the same time, sometimes it was one after another. And there's something that I didn't get to highlight that day that has become more and more prominent in these discussions that I think is really important to note that, yes, she was seen six different medical practitioners during that time. She was prescribed more than a dozen drugs, but there were not all of those drugs in her system after she killed her children and went to the hospital. So there were six drugs that were found in her system.

Starting point is 00:03:59 So anti-anxiety, they're called anti-anxiety medications, Atavan and Valium, antipsychotic medication, Seroquel, a mood stabilizer, and then what's called antidepressant, ISA, SSRI, medication, Rameron, Trazadone, and some of these do cause things like drowsiness, confusion, difficulty, concentrating, lack of coordination, and they don't always interact well with each other. However, there has been some confusion about this. A lot of people have noted, like I did, that, wow, she's prescribed all of these things, and I also flirted with the idea, maybe this caused it. I don't know, but maybe this caused what she did. Let me tell

Starting point is 00:04:46 you why I am less convinced of that theory now. Number one, we do have the testimony of a doctor in this trial, Dr. Justin Brower, who testified that the dosages, of Lemmictol, Remeron, and Trazodone were all within therapeutic levels, and that the Sarahquel in her blood was double the regular dosage, but not a toxic dosage, and that the Valium and the Adavon found in her blood were actually slightly below the prescribed range. So that's one thing. Let me tell you the more important detail that I feel is lost as we are talking about this. Both the prosecution and the defense, and this is in the transcript of the trial from day one that you can go read yourself, agree that Clancy crushed and

Starting point is 00:05:34 ingested these pills after killing her children. Okay? Now, I am not saying that that means that that none of these prescriptions had any effect on her psychiatric state. I'm just saying, we don't actually know how much medication she had been taking, which medications she had been taking, because also through expert testimony on both sides, we have, we have seen witnesses say that Clancy wasn't really reliable and didn't seem reliable when it came to actually taking her medication consistently. So that is a caveat that I would give to my original analysis of this, that the case that the psychiatric medications pushed her to murder her children, I will just say is shaky. It's just shaky. We do not know enough.

Starting point is 00:06:28 don't think the defense has brought enough forward to convince us that that is a plausible theory. That is my take on that. The toxicology results don't reflect the drug concentrations that were present actually when killing her children. They were probably, this report was probably mostly affected by what she took afterwards. So I think that is important to know. this picture that has been painted and that I at least partly have believed or assumed was true when I first started looking at this case, that this was a woman who was desperately trying to get help from multiple doctors and was completely recklessly given all of these medications that she was taking at the same time that drove her into this psychotic episode.

Starting point is 00:07:23 that is not a proven narrative. I think that's the most charitable way to say it. That is the defense's narrative, or part of their narrative, a version of their narrative, but that is not actually a narrative that can stand very strong based on the facts and based on the timeline.

Starting point is 00:07:44 I still have my stance about SSRIs. I still think that she was a struggling woman. I still think that a lot of these medications probably did more harm than good. But the idea that it was all enough to push her to methodically murder her children the way that she did with trigger warning exercise bans with them facing face down while the other ones are probably panicking or running away somewhere. Like I don't, I don't think that that case is very strong. Here's another piece of information that I did not realize when I first

Starting point is 00:08:21 her talking about this. There is no evidence. There was no evidence presented at trial that any of Clancy's treating physicians formally diagnosed her with postpartum depression. She was never diagnosed as far as we know from any of the clinicians that she saw before she killed her children with postpartum depression or postpartum psychosis. Never. For example, according to the Boston Globe and CBS, she went to women in infants hospital, and the clinicians there specifically concluded that she did not have postpartum depression. While McLean Hospital diagnosed her with severe major depressive disorder without psychotic features.

Starting point is 00:09:05 So she was given these medications for a general mood disorder, which is a diagnosis that's in the DSM-5, but she was never diagnosed with postpartum psychosis. She was never diagnosed with postpartum anxiety. if she was never diagnosed as far as we know, the defense certainly hasn't said so with postpartum anxiety. That just goes to show how the defense, how media, and how social media and the narrative that is pushed can completely just change and characterize how you think about a case and how you think about what justice looks like. I guarantee you that that fact shocked you, that Lindsay Clancy was never diagnosed, has never been diagnosed with postpartum.

Starting point is 00:09:48 heart of depression, anxiety, or psychosis, that those diagnoses have only been applied to her since the trial started. So I think that that is also worth knowing. Maybe consider that some of the things that you have believed that I believed, or at least partly believed about this case that has painted her as an entirely sympathetic figure, that those things just aren't, they just aren't true. Now, we'll get into the nuances of this too and how we can feel compassion for her and see her truthfully and objectively separate from the heinous nature of this murder in a second, but I just want to take us through the prosecution and the defense's arguments and present to you what these expert witnesses, what these doctors have said on both sides of this case so we can

Starting point is 00:10:40 have a better, less tic-tokified understanding of this trial and what justice should look like. First, let me pause, let me tell you, if you need some sanity, if you need some clarity, if you want to be with like-minded women who just want to seek the Lord and the truth of his word, I really want to encourage you to come to share the arrows. Y'all, it is a respite from the chaos. It is a refuge in the chaos and confusion of this world. we've got incredible speakers that speak with such courage and such force, such godly force, and I'm so excited for you to hear from Rosaria Butterfield, from Elisa Childers and Natasha Crane from Krasty, Henn,

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Starting point is 00:11:55 make your plans, come by yourself, come with friends, your small group, your mother-in-law, just come to share the arrows. It's going to be amazing. That's share the arrows.com. Before we get into the rest of this episode, let me tell you about. Jevity. I am so thankful for Jevity and how easy they make it to take charge of your health. This was a total game changer, not only for me, but also for Chief Relatorbrough. I think it was, gosh, probably a year ago that we had the phlebotomist from Jevity come to the studio. So it was so easy. She drew our blood. She took the vials. She shipped them off. And just a few days later, I had the results of this comprehensive blood test in my profile, in my Jevity app. And I had an entire

Starting point is 00:12:36 video analysis from a doctor who had interpreted my results, broke them down in a way that I could really understand. So like a normal non-medicalized language to also tell me, hey, this is how you should be eating. This is how you should be sleeping. This is how you should be working out. Here are some supplements that I think you need more of. Here's what's going great. Here's what's not going great. I'm so glad that I did that before I got pregnant because it gave me the opportunity to try to optimize my health as much as possible and make sure that we are still in a really good place, that we're in a really good place health-wise. It's never been easier or more important to take charge of your health.

Starting point is 00:13:14 Go ahead and do that with Jevity. Go to gogevity.com slash alley. Use code alley for 20% off. Go to go jevity.com slash alley code alley. Just a little recap of this past week, last week, and we'll put up this video. It's a silent video. So make sure you watch this.

Starting point is 00:13:39 if you're just listening. But these are the women who are standing outside of the trial. Supporting Lindsay. These are women wearing pink. You've got different buttons on that are supporting her. I saw some of the interviews of these women talking about their theories about Patrick, but also just wanting to say, like, we support you. I find this very grotesque.

Starting point is 00:14:05 Like, I'm just going to be honest. I find this very grotesque. I don't find that these women are trying to be nuanced, that they're just raising awareness for postpartum issues or women needing more help or women needing more support, but they're also like, you know, highlighting the need for justice for the children. I mean, maybe some of these women are. I don't know all of their minds, but to show up in uniform in a particular color to support the woman who again methodically murdered her children, whatever you think drove her to that. That is what happened. I didn't see any buttons with their faces on it.

Starting point is 00:14:47 I didn't see any posters with their faces on it. I didn't see any say their name, signs out there. It was all about Lindsay. And look, as I've said before, I mean, my take is that, yeah, she had some things going on as we'll talk about mentally. And she's, she might have been going through some hard things, but probably every person who murders someone is going through a hard thing. Every person who commits a heinous crime, especially against children, especially against their own children, is on some level of psychotic, is probably dealing with some kind of mental health issue, is probably on some kind of SSRI.

Starting point is 00:15:30 Does that completely remove their agency? and does it completely remove their liability? No, there's no world in which she's just going to go free. I know, I understand that. Psychiatric Hospital versus prison. But she could get released from the psychiatric hospital in a year, in two years. I mean, in a few years. Is that justice for these children?

Starting point is 00:15:55 Well, it depends. It depends on what you think about the prosecution's argument is that, look, she contained, she maintained full faculties that allowed her to be very purposeful and deliberate in making the decision to murder her children. She understood what she was doing and therefore she needs to go to prison. And the defense, which says, yes, she did kill her children. That's not contested, by the way, those of you who think Patrick did it. It's been three and a half years since this crime was committed, the defense would have explored every possible theory of other people's guilt. or of her not being guilty if that were a viable route to take.

Starting point is 00:16:35 But apparently it's not because both the defense and prosecution says, say yes, she did it. But the defense is saying, but she didn't mean to. She wasn't of the right mind. It's the doctor's fault. It's these people's fault. And she didn't know what she was doing. She was suffering a psychotic episode due to postpartum problems.

Starting point is 00:16:52 And so this is basically what they are arguing using right now or over this past week, rather, these expert witnesses on both sides. So we heard from a number of witnesses called by the defense and then later the prosecution. These witnesses were not her personal doctors, so not the clinicians that had prescribed her the medication before these killings. They weren't her own mental health providers, but these in the past week were experts who interviewed her directly or reviewed her medical history and then formed an expert opinion on her state of mind during the time of the killings. So we'll go through some of those.

Starting point is 00:17:31 Dr. Paul Zaisal, he is a clinical and forensic psychologist. He was called by the defense, diagnosed her with bipolar disorder with postpartum psychosis, and concluded that Lindsay could neither appreciate the wrongfulness of her actions, nor conform her conduct to the law. So that was his argument. And then the defense also called forensic psychiatrist Dr. Philip R. Resnick. He evaluated Clancy and diagnosed her with bipolar two disorder, severe depression, and postpartum psychosis, and similarly concluded that she was not criminally responsible

Starting point is 00:18:07 for the killings. And then there was a hospital chaplain, obviously not a mental health professional, but someone who had just spoken with her. Sheela Kavanaugh. She testified about the more than 200 visits. She had with Clancy following the killings. Kavanaugh recalled Clancy expressing love and grief for her children and saying during their first conversation that she was glad they were safe. Now, I want you to remember that, that this is a witness for the defense. Okay, so the team that is defending Lindsay Clancy called this witness a hospital chaplain who said in their first conversation that Lindsay Clancy said, I'm glad my children were safe. Okay. That is going to be pertinent in just a little bit.

Starting point is 00:18:54 The defense rested on Friday, August 21st, after calling about 10 witnesses. Clancy did not testify. The prosecution immediately began its rebuttal case, calling its own psychiatric experts, to challenge the defense's conclusions about psychosis and criminal responsibility. One of the psychiatrists that was called forward by the prosecution, Dr. Aver-Mack, also evaluated Clancy, but later in her treatment. Okay, so April 2026, he diagnosed. her, not just based on her, not just based on her state when he talked to her, but also reviewed

Starting point is 00:19:31 her medical records with major depression and anxiety, but found no evidence that she suffered from bipolar disorder, mania, or psychosis at the time of the killings. Again, not just based on what she said in 26, because I know a lot of people have said that, well, how can you possibly make an accurate assessment three years later? That's not the only assessment that they were making. They were also making assessments based on the expertise and the analysis of the mental health practitioners that saw her and treated her at the time and before these killings. Dr. Mack also notes that she had not been diagnosed, as we said earlier, with postpartum depression. And he pointed out also that she killed her

Starting point is 00:20:21 children when she was eight months postpartum. And so that doesn't really work with this idea that she was suffering from an acute psychotic episode due to intense postpartum depression, not one. There are times that you can designate that it has occurred in the postpartum period. DSM states that that would be within four weeks of birth. It also allows for the symptoms to have occurred before birth. So that is the standard that we utilize when we choose to add on that designation of something being postpartum. Do you know whether or not Lindsay was ever diagnosed with postpartum depression?

Starting point is 00:21:10 I believe that the various notes from the clinicians over the year of 2022 or 22, 23, utilize the term unspecified mood disorder. Right. How about post-partum depression? I don't think that appellation was used. And he's right about that, by the way, that that was not used, at least from the reporting that we've seen, she had not been diagnosed with any of those things.

Starting point is 00:21:41 And then we had Dr. Kirk Heilbrun, Heilbrun, trying to pronounce that correctly. He is a clinical and forensic psychologist and Drexel University professor and all of these people, not just on the prosecution side. When they get up there, they spend a long time talking about their credibility, why really they have been called forth. I mean, they don't say why they've been called forth, but that is what the attorneys are trying to do to show you.

Starting point is 00:22:07 Look, this person is credible. They're not going to be biased. They were very careful in this. And so the jury can know right from the start. like what their ethos is, why they should be trusted. This person is highly, highly credentialed and has been working in this field for a very long time. Now, he testified, and I think that this is interesting, that the prosecutions to witnesses actually disagreed on the diagnosis. He testified that he ultimately diagnosed

Starting point is 00:22:38 Clancy with bipolar two disorder. He says that he spent three days with Clancy assessing her and talking with her about everything that happened, but also reviewing all of her past diagnoses and analyzing everything, every doctor that had assessed her and all of her different medications and things like that. And after assessing her, evaluating her himself, he rejected the defense's contention

Starting point is 00:23:09 that Clancy was psychotic when she killed the children. According to the Boston Globe, he testified that Clancy's account of suddenly hearing a male voice commanding her to kill the children, despite not experiencing that voice before or afterward, was highly unusual if someone is truly psychotic and hallucinating and hearing voices. To put it mildly, that would be a very, very unusual pattern or manifestation of how this kind of thing comes about. very unusual. I've been doing this kind of evaluation for many, many years, and I'm always very careful when someone tells me that they experience the symptom only during the course of committing an offense. Now, he says that in his evaluation, that she said that it was only in that

Starting point is 00:24:10 18-minute window when she killed her children and then killed herself. I believe he said 18 minutes. I don't have that note right in front of me. But from what I remember, I watched all of this testimony myself, that she said that she heard that voice. And he is now expounding on here, why that is just so rare. And his assessment, I encourage you to watch the entire, his entire testimony from Monday and then also Tuesday, because he is very sympathetic to her.

Starting point is 00:24:41 You can tell. Like he really does believe that this was a struggling woman. He describes her as someone who is very bright and who seemed to care a lot about success and perfection, but also described her as a very stable person, really her whole life, but even in the assessment and also that she became what seemed to him as purposely guarded as the questioning went on. So at first demonstrated a really keen sense of everything that happened, able to recall tiny details of not just the crime, but also just her life and her past.

Starting point is 00:25:21 And then as the days went on, she got more and more obfuscating, didn't want to talk. And he just talks about this. And he really kind of like builds this case, I believe, even if this is not what he's trying to do, He builds the case that, look, this is a sane woman. Yeah, she struggled. She had some issues. She had some mental health problems. He goes on and on about how she really wanted to commit suicide and thinks that that was a contributing factor here. But he clearly does not think that she was crazy or insane. He actually characterizes these killings as altruistic phylliside. So this refers to a parent killing their children under the belief that doing so is in the

Starting point is 00:26:09 children's interest. So in this theory, Clancy intended to die. This is, again, what he's positing, and did not want to leave her children behind because she believed that they would suffer without her support. Altruistic Felicide is a term that's used that means killing your kids out of love, not because you're trying to be cruel or for material gain or because, you want them out of your lives or any of that, but killing them out of love so that you could, basically, they wouldn't have to suffer, so you could prevent their suffering.

Starting point is 00:26:55 Now, this is not what the defense wants to hear. This is not what the defense is trying to argue because that doesn't alleviate someone of agency or liability in the same way that being truly psychotic would. Dr. Heilbrun also testified that Clancy told her children, this would be according to Clancy, to go be with God as she killed them. He said this. One of the things that she said, this is very disturbing.

Starting point is 00:27:23 I chill up my spine when I was watching this. One of the things that she said when I asked about what happened is that in the course of strangling each child, she said, go to God, baby, go to God. So that was the part of what he believes was her expectation that she and the children would be together in heaven with God. Now, remember when I told you to note what the chaplain, which was the defense's witness said earlier, Sheila Kavanaugh, she said in her first conversation with Clancy, after she had been hospitalized after the killings, she said that, Clancy told her she was glad her children were safe. Again, that is the defenses witnessing that. To me, if I am to piece things together, that actually supports the assessment of the prosecution's witness who says she did this because, as crazy as it sounds to us, she actually thought

Starting point is 00:28:26 that they would be safe. Now, you might be thinking, well, isn't that psychotic? Doesn't that actually make you psychotic? Well, according to this psychologist, no. That's not necessarily psychotic. That could be a part of depression. That could be a part of bipolar disorder. That could be a part of some kind of mood disorder. But he argues that that's not actually something that is typical in psychosis. And then he also goes on to say what the defense really didn't take while, that actually she was basically of sound mind when she did this. Let me pause. Tell you about our next sponsor. It's World Watch. All right. I know that the news is just, it's a lot and it can be a lot to take in and we don't want our kids consuming everything that we see on social media or in the news, but we do want them to have awareness of what is going on in the

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Starting point is 00:29:59 like it, I guarantee you, y'all are going to love it and get a lot from it. Go to worldwatch. dot news slash alley code alley. Okay, just FYI, my friends, I was a little slow in doing those ads and so my next few ads are going to be a little closer together. I know sometimes that's a hard listen when I have to do that, but it's important that I get all of our wonderful, wonderful sponsors in. So just a heads up on that. Now, I do want to note something about, as we're, as we're talking about this psychological assessment before I get into when he, Dr. Heilbrun really drops the hammer and says, okay, I think that she was criminally responsible for this, is that one thing that doesn't come into play and that can't really come into play is the spiritual aspect

Starting point is 00:30:51 of this. And in fact, Dr. Heilbrun tried to talk a little bit about Clancy's theology or a supposed of theology, that she grew up Catholic. And so there was some discrepancy between Catholic theology and then like what she thought would happen if she and her children died at the same time. And she committed suicide and the defense didn't like that. They tried to call for a mistrial. That didn't work. And so you really can't bring up spiritual aspects of this, even if it does seem pertinent.

Starting point is 00:31:22 I think that fact actually seems pertinent to what this witness was trying to argue. with his diagnosis of her. But what can't ever really be considered in courts of law is the reality of demonic influence. Like he says, okay, it's really not usual that you hear this voice that tells you to do something and you only hear it once. That's probably true when it comes to the psychiatric diagnoses. I don't know if it's necessarily true when it comes to demonic influence. I think it's very obvious that not just,

Starting point is 00:31:56 Lindsay Clancy, but anyone who murders someone, especially murders your own children in this way, is influenced demonically. Am I saying that absolves anyone of responsibility? No, the opposite. That's the thing, is that we're talking about, only about psychology, and we can't bring up the obvious that obviously there is some kind of demonic influence going on here, just as there is with every single person that has ever committed murder for all of time. And if we were to dismiss the guilt of all of those people, then we would never have justice. We would never have consequences for our actions.

Starting point is 00:32:35 We wouldn't even have a justice system. I'm not saying she didn't also have mental issues that she needed help with. But I just want to say, like when we're talking about the DSM-5 and what's possible and what's not, and outside of this window and inside of this, this window, well, Satan can't be put into the DSM-5. Like, he is not always diagnosable. The demonic is not always diagnosable. And yet we know that he is the prince of the power of the air,

Starting point is 00:33:04 the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, as Ephesians 2 says. So I just don't want to lose sight of the spiritual reality and the spiritual warfare that occurs here. And I think we have to be careful as Christians, not to psychologize everything that we know to be, know to be spiritual, right? Like, we know that there's actual good and evil. We know that there's original sin. We know that people can actually do really evil things and it's not always a mental

Starting point is 00:33:32 health problem. Like, it's not always that someone was crazy. It's just that they did this evil thing and it's hard for us to wrap our minds around it and you do have to hold evil accountable. Now, this psychologist, Dr. Heilbrin, I have such a hard time saying his name, Heilbrin. He returned yesterday, and he testified that it was his conclusion based on his thorough assessment that, yeah, she was criminally responsible. Soap five. Did you form an opinion to a reasonable degree of psychological certainty as to whether Ms. Clancy was able to conform her conduct to the requirements of the law when she killed her children? Yes. And what is that opinion?

Starting point is 00:34:15 That her capacity to conform a conduct to the requirements of the law is, again, best on the law. understood by considering the seriousness of her suicide attempt and her strong desire not to leave her children. She demonstrated such self-control throughout the day on January 24th, and her actions between 5.15 and 6 p.m. that afternoon were influenced by her depression and her hopelessness about her life and the desire to end the pain she had experienced since October. Although this depression and hopelessness influenced her decisions. She retained control over whether, when, and how she carried it out, and the inclusion of her children. And, Dr. Did you form an opinion to a reasonable degree of psychological certainty as to whether or not the defendant was criminally responsible when she

Starting point is 00:35:11 killed her children? Yes. And what is that opinion? My opinion, my clinical opinion, since I'm not the decision maker here. But my clinical opinion is that she was criminally responsible on January 24th. So he says she knew what she did. She knew what she was doing earlier in the testimony, and I wish we could play the whole thing in all of the clips, but we just can't. But earlier in the testimony,

Starting point is 00:35:42 he went through, or he at least acknowledged the decisions that had to be made. And the planning, the purposefulness that was placed behind the plot to kill her children, that there were deliberate decisions that were made, that she had to tell Patrick to go do not one but two different errands, that she took the children down to the basement, that she then tried to crush up the pills and take them

Starting point is 00:36:16 and then jump out of the window after she slit herself with a, knife, that she did all of this in a short window being able to estimate when her husband, Patrick, would be back in. Also, during this time, she calls Patrick. Patrick calls her. And then he testified, yeah, she did seem distracted, but not distressed. And then, or Patrick calls her, she doesn't pick up, but she calls right back. That's when she was distracted, but not, not distressed. And so she is not in some, as we can tell from her own testimony or her like own evaluation and answers to these assessments, that she was in some state of paranoia or panic or that she had lost all sense of rationality. That's what you see with a lot of these

Starting point is 00:37:08 psychotic episodes. You lose all sense of reality and rationality. You can't plan. You can't think about like what time is, are things going to happen? Oh, I need to answer. this phone call and I need to act really calm and, oh, I need to go down to the basement and I need to plot all of this. That's what she did. It was step by step plot to kill each of her children, which is why Dr. Heilbrun says that this seemed to be something that was not psychotic. It was rather something where she thought that she was doing the right thing. So now what happens next? Judge Sullivan indicated that closing arguments, as I said, are expected on Thursday, tomorrow, August 26th. The case would then be submitted to the jury for deliberations. A conviction for first-degree murder carries a sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole. According to People Magazine, if Clancy is found not criminally responsible because of mental illness, she would instead be subject to commitment proceedings for psychiatric treatment. So we actually don't even know what her being committed would look like, how long that would be.

Starting point is 00:38:23 We just don't know. There's a lot that we still don't know is going to happen. I will say as I have looked at this case more and more, as I have looked at the details, I have become less and less convinced that she is not fully responsible for this. It's really interesting, the reaction that I get also for talking about the existence of toxic empathy when it comes to this, because that is a lot of what is happening online in the street when it comes to these women

Starting point is 00:38:52 who are unconditionally defending her, who are making these videos as we played last week saying, me too, Lindsay, throwing ice into the bathtub to try to show like the seriousness of postpartum depression relating to Lindsay Clancy that way, spinning all of these crazy conspiracies about Patrick Clancy. Again, I don't know that Patrick is like some great guy. I have no affinity towards him. I just think it's really serious when you make accusations towards someone without any real evidence and think that you know better and care more than the defense. I just think that's like a really serious, slanderous thing to do. I don't want to participate in that. And when I point these things

Starting point is 00:39:35 out, I get so many angry messages, so many comments. And people have criticized me. And maybe this is a valid critique for saying that these are liberal women. And the truth is that it's not always liberal women. And so some people have said, why make this a left versus right issue? And that is true. There is certainly significant crossover with people who believe conspiracies about Charlie Kirk and conspiracies about Lindsay Clancy and they're not all on the left. I know that's going to make people mad, but there is significant crossover. I'm not saying it's total crossover. I'm not saying the Venn diagram is a perfect circle, but I'm saying there's a Venn diagram. I'm saying that there is a cross over there and those who are so true crime obsessed and those who have been maybe unknowingly

Starting point is 00:40:18 doused in toxic empathy to where they focus so much on the plight of Lindsay Clancy and your ability to relate to her as a struggling mom that you've forgotten about the little precious faces of these innocent children that were killed that were choked to death by their mom with exercise bans. I mean, we're talking about toddlers and babies here. Yeah, that's what toxic empathy is. It's not all empathy. It's when your empathy for one individual or one group has become so strong that you are blinded to both reality and morality, that you've forgotten about the people on the other side of the moral equation. We see it with abortion when you care so much for the plight of the pregnant woman in crisis that you forget about the rights and the pain of the person inside of the womb,

Starting point is 00:41:07 who will actually be suffering from abortion. You care so much about the plight of the migrant that you forget about the pain of someone like Lake and Riley or the consequences of borderlessness. And you feel so deeply for what you have deemed postpartum psychosis when it comes to Lindsay Clancy that you forget about the justice and the existence of the physical torture of her children.

Starting point is 00:41:30 I'm not saying that's true of everyone who has a different take than me on this case. I'm not saying that, but I do see it a lot. I see it a whole lot. And it's not just liberal women. It's all different kinds of women. And I do understand it. But my opinion is that you are misguided. I do think that she was a struggling woman and we can understand that and pray for her, but that she is also a methodical murderer. And most methodical murders are also struggling in some way. Now, there's also a really weird crossover between those who are, those who are supporting Lindsay Clancy,

Starting point is 00:42:12 unconditionally. And again, I know that's not all of you who like have maybe a different take than me on this. But those who are unconditionally supporting her saying pastured at all that stuff and the new age and witchcraft and zodiac signs. I'm not kidding. It's really, really strange. Bad mental things are happening on TikTok. Like get off TikTok.

Starting point is 00:42:32 Okay? Get off TikTok. I know I have a profile. file on TikTok. I've never logged into TikTok a day in my life, not once. I don't even, I couldn't tell you what a TikTok feed looks like. I don't know how TikTok works. I think that alternative opinion presence for alternative opinions is important on TikTok. I've never scrolled on TikTok a day in my life. And so I encourage you to get off TikTok because the things that are happening on there are insane. Okay, before I play you some examples of that and talk about

Starting point is 00:42:58 the spiritual significance of it, let me pause, let me tell you about seven weeks coffee. I love seven weeks coffee. It's not just a sponsor for us. It is part of our daily routine. We love how it tastes. We love that it's clean, mold-free, pesticide-free. And of course, we love most of all that they donate 10% of every sale to pregnancy centers across the country. And they have raised almost $2 million for these pregnancy centers, which is translated

Starting point is 00:43:20 into saving so many baby lives and serving so many moms and dads. And I also love the name, the significance of seven weeks coffee at seven weeks gestation, that little baby inside the womb is the size of a coffee bean. So you can help these moms and dads who are in crisis. You can help these pregnancy centers. You can help save these babies, help share the gospel to these families just by allowing your coffee to serve a higher purpose. When you subscribe, you save 15%.

Starting point is 00:43:48 Plus when you use my code, you save an extra 10%. Go to 7weekscoffee.com code alley. Sevenweeks coffee.com code alley. Okay, so one thing that we're seeing is that women on TikTok are using astrology to argue that Patrick actually committed the killings. And they're using divination. They're using what they claim to be some connection with the divine and with the universe to try to prove their case.

Starting point is 00:44:22 So they're using Lindsay and Patrick's birth dates to create birth charts. That in their view, explain why Patrick did it and how he managed to convince Lindsay that she was the one who carried it out. Too much time on your hands. Too much time. What is it in idle minds is the devil's workshop? that's what's going on here. Sot 10. Patrick Clancy did it and you will never convince me otherwise.

Starting point is 00:44:42 His sun sign is at 24 degrees of Gemini. That is a violence degree. That's a malevolence degree and a danger of accidents degree. So to all the Patrick Clancy haters, I can validate for you that he was a jackass because he was cheating on Lindsay. And I confirmed it. This is his chart. So I wanted to take a look at her birth chart and give my thoughts on the energy of Lindsay Clancy. Lindsay likely had a very deep need to protect nurture and provide safety to children, her own children, and vulnerable populations.

Starting point is 00:45:23 I believe Patrick Clancy likely played into these deep insecurities. That was why he was able to gaslight her into thinking that she was the one who did, in fact, alive, her children. Okay. I just want to note that something that we haven't heard, but that now I've heard multiple reporters who are actually at the trial and reporting on it, I've said was the worst part of the trial, the hardest part of the trial. It wasn't watching Lindsay Clancy cry.

Starting point is 00:45:54 It wasn't seeing her in the wheelchair, but it was actually hearing the 911 call from Patrick Clancy to authorities that his screams sounded almost otherworldly. like non-human. They were so guttural. They were so incredibly desperate. It's hard for me to see how you fake something like that. So I'm not saying that would be enough if we were in a court of law, but he's not on trial. And there's a reason that he's not on trial.

Starting point is 00:46:26 And again, there's a reason why the defense hasn't pursued that. So remember, don't call conspiracy everything that the world calls conspiracy. we read it in the book of Isaiah. We have to be very thoughtful. We have to be Barans. Of course, astrology is not a scientific method. It's not thoughtful. It has its roots in ancient pagan traditions. It's a religious belief system that Christians should have absolutely no pardon whatsoever. But this just goes to show like social media, astrology, the new age, conspiracy, true crime, toxic empathy, all of these things are coming together in this very what I think is dangerous and disturbing combination of the American female psyche.

Starting point is 00:47:11 There's a reason why in Deuteronomy and Leviticus, like God warns against use of divination, use of necromancy, use of mediums, use of magic, use of fortune tellers, tarot cards, anything like that, because that's not where we're supposed to be seeking wisdom. Because all of that makes us vulnerable, I think, to demonic influence. And then also like we see over and over again that the forbidding of witchcraft also comes right before or right after the forbidding of child sacrifice. Deuteronomy 18 starting in verse 9. Actually, we'll start in verse 10 when God is giving them the commands. Like when you go into the land that the Lord your God is going to give you, don't follow the ways of the people who live around you of those other nations.

Starting point is 00:47:59 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering. Anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead. For whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. Practicing magic and these kinds of things and child sacrifice go hand in hand. That seems to be connected when it comes to the analysis of this Lindsay. Clancy case, at least from some corners of the internet. So stay firm on this.

Starting point is 00:48:35 I got a lot of people mad in my DMs. I got a lot of people mad in my comments. And I got a lot of people who are saying, I'm just, you know, I'm telling you not to critically think wrong. I'm begging you to. I'm begging you to critically think, actually. I'm not telling you not to ask questions. I'm saying, please ask questions, please ask questions, especially of the TikTokers and

Starting point is 00:48:58 the podcasters, that includes me, ask questions of your own thoughts, ask questions of like where you got the idea that you did. Maybe you're like me and you thought that this whole time she had been diagnosed with postpartum depression and psychosis. She has it. She has it. So just ask yourself if like you really have a good understanding of this trial before you rip someone to shreds for pointing out that, hey, like maybe it's not the most discerning thing in the world to just unconditionally support her. Now, I told you that we would talk about this for a second, and we will. I just want to note that, yes, of course, there is a, there is a world in which you can say,

Starting point is 00:49:41 as we have, that, you know, SSRIs are damaging. Women need more help postpartum. Murder is bad. Sure, but we don't have to do that in every single situation every time. I think I've done that until the cows come home, actually, when it comes to this case. Not everything I say is going to be divided into those groups, though. Yeah, multiple things can be true at once. But we can also just say murder is the worst of them, though.

Starting point is 00:50:07 Like, killing your kids is the worst of all of them. We don't always have to nuance every single thing that we say just to make sure that we're appeasing every single person. I'm so tired of that on the internet. I mean, that started in 2020, but it also ended in 2020 for me, okay? And I know some people are still stuck in that where you think that the people who talk on the internet have to appease every single, like, facet of what you think about something, but that's not the

Starting point is 00:50:31 case. Like sometimes things do end up being black and white. I said that it wasn't in the beginning when I first started talking about this. I said it's not cut and dry. Those are my direct words. To me, it pretty much is now. To me, it pretty much is. You might not agree. You might not agree with me, but that's where I am. And you can yell at me all you want to. And look, I'm not infallible. and you're welcome to have your own opinion on it. I just think a lot of women when it comes to this case are being duped in a way that you would not if it were a man committing this crime. I just don't think that all of you have the same compassion for Irenea Zerutska's murderer,

Starting point is 00:51:08 who definitely had mental health issues, who definitely was on medications, who definitely was crazy. I think you probably agree with me that he needs the death penalty. But the defense of the media have done a very, very good job of painting an extremely sympathetic picture of her to where we've just totally negated justice based on made up mental health diagnoses and a narrative that a lot of women can relate to. It's not good. It's not good that our sense of justice shouldn't be affected that much.

Starting point is 00:51:39 All right. Let's talk about our next ad. I know it's kind of close together. And then we'll do a lifestyle pitter pattern. And we will, of course, we will follow up on all of the Lindsay Clancy stuff when we were able to record in a timeline that actually like makes sense with everything that's going on and we can give you a full analysis of what the jury decides and all of that. All right, let me pause. Let me tell you about pro-life diaper company. It's every life. Love them so much. I love my

Starting point is 00:52:06 pro-life sponsors. We're about to be back in diaper season again. We've taken a little break from the diaper season, but now we're headed back into it when I give birth in a couple months. we will be eye high in diapers. They will all be every life diapers. I love them. They work so well. Super clean material. Very flexible, very soft,

Starting point is 00:52:29 and also works really well. Would not be using them if they were not effective. No one wants to wake up in the middle of the night because the diaper isn't doing its job. And so they're just really good. And of course, I love that they are supporting pregnancy centers. They're supporting pregnant moms. You can go to their website,

Starting point is 00:52:44 buy for a buy for a cause. bundle, buy a buy for a cause bundle, and they will donate resources to a local pregnancy center to help a pregnant mom in need. Go to everylife.com. Use code alley 10. You'll get 10% off your first order today. Everylife.com code alley 10. Okay, while we're going to do lifestyle pitter pattern, it feels a little weird to do our lighthearted Hillary Clinton AI generated making cookies in the kitchen intro that we typically do when it comes to lifestyle pitter pattern because this is not a lighthearted topic. This is a sad topic. And that is the death of Dolly Parton, the country music, legend, actress, philanthropist. She has died at the age of 80. I opened up my phone

Starting point is 00:53:34 and I gasped and I was like, oh my goodness. She's just someone that you would imagine dying at the age of 104. She's just lived such a, such a life, but still seemed so vivacious. It was her publicist who posted this announcement. She died peacefully Tuesday in Nashville. according to him. She wrote classics like Jolene. I will always love you. But in addition to being a brilliant creative, a creative mind,

Starting point is 00:54:02 she dedicated much of her life to helping others. For example, in 1988, she founded the Dollywood Foundation to support education in her home county. One of its early initiatives offered $500 to seventh and eighth grade students who pledged to finish high school

Starting point is 00:54:19 an effort aimed at reducing the local dropout rate. In 1995, she founded Dolly Parton's Imagination Library, inspired by her father, who was unable to read or write. The Imagination Library sends free books to children from birth to age five. And it's now not just in her home county, but also in communities all around the United States. And for the past 31 years, the program has given more than 300 million books to children around the world. This is also just an example that free enterprise in the private sector does, such a better job at helping those in need, including with literacy, than the government does. And she has also provided millions of dollars in disaster relief, including aid to families

Starting point is 00:55:03 who lost their homes in the devastating 2016 East Tennessee wildfires. Obviously, is an incredible just industry titan as well. I mean, she has done so much with her name. She's got, she's got Dollywood, she's got an amusement park. She's got all different kinds of things and she has just brought a lot of joy to a lot of people for a very long time. She is one of those rare figures that the left and the right both find to be almost entirely unproblematic and like both really like her. She has done a really good job of staying out of controversy for many decades. And her legacy, especially when it comes to the education of children, will last a very

Starting point is 00:55:49 long time. It will outlast her. And so I just want to play you this, where she is singing one of my favorite hymns. Beautiful. She's beautiful. So talented. That was way back in the 1970s. I love that song.

Starting point is 00:56:35 I love her voice. What a talent that we've lost. All right. Let me read you my last sponsor. And then we'll get out of here for the day. My last sponsor is Good Ranchers. as everyone heads back to school, you're getting back into your routine, you want to make sure that you are prioritizing eating dinner with your family at the table every night. It is so a stress-inducing

Starting point is 00:56:57 to not know what you are going to eat and try to decide that at five. Well, with good ranchers, you can at least have one part of your meal. The most important part of your meal totally accounted for, that's the protein, that's the all-American meat. They've got bacon, they've got hot dogs, but they have your traditional beef, your ground beef, your steaks, your better than organic chicken. It is all so good. And it's all from an American farmer ranch. We've been relying on it for more than five years. So thankful for Good Ranchers, this is an America-loving, God-loving, family-owned company. Makes your life so much easier. You get that box of meat to your front door every month on dry ice. One less thing to think about. Go to Good Ranchers.com slash Alley. That's

Starting point is 00:57:34 good ranchers.com slash Alley. Okay, y'all, that's all we've got time for today. We are are going to have an incredible episode on Friday. Do not miss it. And like I said, we of course will continue to give analysis of the Lindsay Clancy trial, the conclusion of that over the next few days. We don't have a daily show. We have a three times a week show.

Starting point is 00:58:01 And the Friday show is always an incredible interview. And so we can't always be the first, but we try to be the most thorough. And we try to give you the clearest and the most biblical perspective that we possibly can. sometimes that takes some time. So we'll try to talk about that on Monday if we have the conclusion to the deliberation by then. And if not, we'll talk about it on Wednesday.

Starting point is 00:58:24 I will see you guys back here on Friday.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1388 | I Was Wrong About Lindsay Clancy. Why I’ve Changed My Mind

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