Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1392 | She Changed Her Mind On P*rn After This New Evidence | Dr. Debra Soh

Episode Date: September 4, 2026

Allie sits down for a fascinating conversation with Dr. Debra Soh, neuroscientist, sex researcher, and author of the book “Sextinction: The Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy.” Dr. Soh, previously identified as “sex positive” but now criticizes the harmful movement that holds consent as the only moral standard. Many scientists in her field have political motivations and agendas they want to push on the public which has affected their research. Her evolving views surrounding her research demonstrates her credibility on these topics as she draws conclusions from fact rather than fitting them into a political agenda. She discusses how many are choosing AI over actual people both physically and relationally. What many see as harmless actually poses danger to children and can lead to the degradation of human beings. Dr. Soh also explains the reason many GenZ are identifying as gay and why both sexes would benefit from being less promiscuous, proving scientifically what God has said from the beginning. Do you have a question for Allie? Leave a voicemail at 844-755-5252 Share the Arrows 2026 is on October 10 in Dallas, Texas! Tickets are on sale now at: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://sharethearrows.com⁠⁠⁠ Share the Arrows is sponsored by: A'del Natural Cosmetics: AdelNaturalCosmetics.com Range Leather: RangeLeather.com/ALLIE We Heart Nutrition: WeHeartNutrition.com Buy Allie's book "Toxic Empathy: How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion": ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.toxicempathy.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ – Time Codes 0:00 Introduction 3:52 Why Dr. Soh’s Views Changed 8:00 Technology’s Negative Impact on Relationships 18:12 The Consequences of Adult Entertainment 27:02 The Connection Between Transgenderism & P*rn 42:38 Feminism’s Role 48:34 Dating Apps 58:20 Solutions – Today's Sponsors: Good Ranchers | If you go to ⁠⁠⁠GoodRanchers.com⁠⁠⁠ and subscribe to any box of 100% American meat, you’ll save up to $500 a year! Plus, if you use code ALLIE, you’ll get an additional $25 off your first order. CovePure is giving my audience $250 off if you use my link, CovePure.com/ALLIE . Patriot Mobile | Go to PatriotMobile.com/ALLIE or call 972-PATRIOT. Use promo code ALLIE for a free month of service. Alliance Defending Freedom | Every dollar you give to ADF by March 31 will be doubled by a special matching grant, only while matching funds last. Go to JOINADF.com/ALLIE or text ALLIE to 83848 to have your gift matched to protect brave Americans. Geviti | Go to gogeviti.com/allie and use code ALLIE for 20% off. Episodes You May Like: Ep 1140 | What Christian Men Look For in a Woman | Guest: Timothy Stuckey (Chief Relatabro) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1140-what-christian-men-look-for-in-a-woman/id1359249098?i=1000691988398 Ep 340 | The End of Gender? | Guest: Dr. Debra Soh https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-340-the-end-of-gender-guest-dr-debra-soh/id1359249098?i=1000502813990 --- ► Buy Allie's book, "You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love": https://alliebethstuckey.com/book ► Subscribe to the podcast: iTunes: https://apple.co/2UVssnP Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2FwkXxj ► Connect with Allie on Social Media: https://twitter.com/conservmillen https://www.instagram.com/alliebstuckey/ https://facebook.com/allieBlazeTV/ ► Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

I previously thought that porn was just benign entertainment for adults as long as they're not hurting anyone. Who am I to judge? For me to be willing to change my mind about it was, I mean, asking myself, why is the people are not having sex? I mean, if you look at the statistics across multiple datasets, the number I kept seeing is one in three men and one in five women have not had sex in the past year. I began really asking why is this happening and what is taking the place of that connection. Porn is so powerful in terms of acting as a replacement for sex. Porn viewing, especially excessive porn viewing, tends to be associated with boredom, lack of meaning in life, anxiety. These are issues that need to be addressed as opposed to society telling people,

oh, you can watch as much porn as you want and it's not unhealthy. Dr. So, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. So a few years ago I had you on, you wrote a book about the end of gender. And now you've written a book about the end of sex, sex extinction, rather. And so you're writing about the ending of things. In this case, what are you talking about? So you're right. My first book, The End of Gender, is funny because the title sounds very progressive,

but it was basically talking about gender ideology and how it has no place in education, no place in dictating any social policy or the way we think about gender. So sex-stinction is in a similar vein in that I'm calling out basically progressive science denial and saying these views around sexuality and in particular so-called sex positivity are actually harmful, very harmful, even though they're being pushed by mainstream sex experts and sexuality researchers. And sex distinction is very much about how there is this larger sex recession or dating recession happening.

Birth rates are down. People are choosing to turn to sexual surrogates instead of having actual sexual partners. And my interest in sexuality and this decline in sex is because it is a role. reflection of a lack of intimacy, a lack of connection more broadly in society, which I find quite worrisome. And would you say that your view on sex and sexuality has changed even in the past few years? Or are you just writing about kind of what you have seen for a very long time working as a sexologist in this industry? I would say both. I would say definitely my own views around sexuality have changed a lot even since the last time I spoke with you about my first book.

I was still very much, quote, sex positive at that time. And I think that is a relic of having been in academia for so long. And also working within the field of sex research, there really are certain parameters within which you have to comport yourself as a scientist and also in terms of the questions you ask and the type of research you pursue. So I don't want to say this about all of my colleagues and friends who are still in the field because there are some genuinely good scientists who are unbiased. They're not activists. They don't have a political agenda. They really just want to do good research. But I would say there are very many scientists in the field who also have political motivations and their particular narratives that they want to push on the

public because they have a larger movement or goal that they are seeking to achieve. So my goal with this book is not to tell people how to live their lives, but just to offer research that is unbiased. And I think many people, I'm sure in your audience, they are already aware that there's something not right in terms of the zeitgeist around sexuality nowadays and what's being told to the public, what the cultural norms are. But here's some evidence that they can point to that says, here's why that intuition or those feelings you have or the values you have are actually correct. And you don't have to listen to basically the mainstream so-called experts about it. You said that a few years ago when you were on my show, you would have described yourself as sex positive. How would you summarize what that means or what that meant to you then? Sex positivity is a movement or ideology that revolves around this idea that anything goes sexually,

essentially so long as both people or however many people who are involved consent, and that it's known place to judge that and that, in fact, it should be celebrated to some degree. And if you are not on board with this, you are, quote, sex negative, or there's something wrong about you or you're bad in bed or what have you. I agree to the extent that I don't think there should be shame around people embracing their sexuality so long as it's not hurting themselves or other people. I don't think there should necessarily be shame around sexuality or discussions of sexuality. But they are private conversations. They are sensitive conversations.

I don't think it should be something that you should be talking about with strangers, say, or necessarily in public when they're children around, things like that. He's gotten to the point now where I see people enjoying kink in public in front of children and around people who have no desire or interest partaking in that. And things like, I guess we'll get into some of the subjects in sex extinction, things like how young people are feeling coerced in many cases to go along with certain sexual activities that they don't necessarily want to partake in, but they don't want to say no or they don't feel they can say no because they don't want to be seen as boring or sexually unappealing.

there's a sense of peer pressure around that. So there are various subjects I've really changed my view on, say with regard to pornography or like I said, kink or even sex dolls and sex robots and technology that's coming in to replace or amplify human sexuality in ways that are not actually conducive to human connection. And I don't think are good for us at the end of the day.

Yeah, it's so interesting because I've talked about this idea of consent being the only moral standard, the only standard of what is right and what is wrong. And I'm talking from a Christian perspective. And so I'm like, consent is one component of morality, but it is not the only component. There are things that people consent to that are morally wrong. Of course, from our Christian perspective,

you're writing from a secular, psychological, scientific perspective, and it seems like you're kind of pushing back on this idea that consent is the only standard of what our sexual ethics should be. Right, because if you look at something like, say, BDSM, which is basically sadomasochism, so people who enjoy either harming their partner or being harmed during sexual activity.

And in the eyes of sex positivity or this consent model, so long as you consent to being harmed or your partner consents to it, then that's okay. But I don't think people should be able to consent to abuse. And I also think we should be talking, talking more broadly about why is it some people enjoy being abused during sexual activity, as opposed to saying, okay, they consented to it, so it's not our place to question that. Because if you do basically look under the hood of the car and try to figure out why is it

people feel this way or why do people gravitate toward these behaviors, usually there are other reasons. Usually there are unfortunate things that happened to them when they were younger that led them to be interested in these proclivities, as opposed to it being something just fun and exciting and new that people want to do. And I do think there's a difference between, say, people who are playful or, say, in a monogamous relationship, if you want to spice things up with your partner. But again, in a way that's not actually harming your partner and it's not degrading them. It's not degrading yourself. But nowadays, it's really seen as, it's really frowned upon to question any of this. And I think many people are reluctant, especially if you

look within the field of sex research, if you question or you, um, criticize any of these ideas, you're going to get kicked out pretty quickly. Yeah. You mentioned that, you know, there shouldn't be shame around sex and sexuality and those kind of conversations as long as you're not hurting yourself or other people. But I did hear you mention and kind of like the list of things that you seem to have changed your mind on, like sex robots. And some people might say, well, you know, what's, what's wrong with that? Why even have any opinion on that? It's totally neutral. This is not a human being. So what's wrong with that kind of development of people using objects for their sexual pleasure?

So I previously thought we were not going to see realistic sex robots in our lifetimes. I really thought that it was going to happen decades, if not, or that such a thing could never really actually exist because the technology could not possibly be so good that a robot could emulate a human being so convincingly. But I have seen how quickly this technology is advancing. And I do see it being implemented very soon. Maybe not in the next five years, but somewhere around within the next decade, for sure. When I look at what smartphones and social media have done to us and screens more broadly, once this technology becomes mainstream, I'm really worried.

And AI companions, I have a chapter on that in Sex Extinction. I really think the entire dynamic between men and women and the concept of relationships and marriage and, again, intimacy and closeness with a partner is going to radically be changed and challenged. And so my issue with it, I previously I thought, you know, as a scientist or as a scientist, a former scientist, why not just let the technology flourish? And isn't that a wonderful thing that we have the ability to create a form of being that may not be human, but is so similar to humans that it's remarkable. And intellectually, I still think there's something interesting about that. But we have to think also about from a practical standpoint, what are going to be the implications or the consequences of that technology.

Again, if we already see people turning away from other human beings and choosing objects as opposed to fostering that real connection. And so we don't have data to suggest that this technology is not going to affect human sexuality. Previously, I thought, okay, that lack of data, well, we should just do studies, but I realized it's going to be possible to do objective studies because people are not going to want to put out findings saying that this technology is potentially dangerous or what have you or bad for people's relationships and marriages

because that's just not something that researchers in the field are necessarily, they feel compelled to do, right? So there's a bias in that way. And then also when I see what, say, AI companions are doing to people, I mean, I tested out dozens of AI boyfriends and girlfriends on various platforms and they're so realistic and they're so compelling. I fully understand why people are falling in love with their AIs,

why they're choosing their AIs over other human beings as partners. And then also we see the trend of this in children. There's a study that came out of the UK recently that found in teenage boys, one in five knows someone who's in a relationship with an AI. And one in three prefers talking to an AI over a real life person. So once this starts reaching children, that's when it really disturbs and upsets me because they don't even have a chance to develop

in a healthy way. And these kids don't know, right? I think many parents also don't know. They might not even know that their kids are using this technology. So I don't want to blame the parents for that. But that's where I started to change my mind on the robot conversation, because sex dolls already are very popular. And once you can download an AI brain essentially into that physical vessel, that's like a whole other, a whole other can of worms that's going to be opened. All right, quick pause to tell you about our first sponsor for the day. And that is Cove Pure. I love this sponsor. We use this every day. It is a water filtration system that sits on your countertop. We've got it in a cabinet. We don't have to hide it because it's really beautiful. It comes in all of these colors. It looks really sleek and sophisticated. But we've got it kind of tucked away really easy to use, easy to change. My kids can easily use it. I love that it's reverse osmosis. And so you know it's getting out all of those contaminants. that you just don't want in your water. But I also love how many modes it has.

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I highly recommend this best water filtration system that I have ever used. Go to covepe, C-O-V-E-P-U-R-E.com slash Alley. You can get $250 off cove-pure.com slash alley. I just imagine that this really affects how someone views a person and treats a person. It's kind of like, and this is not necessarily what you're talking about, but I think about the elevation of animals in some cases is being like just as important as humans. It turns out that that doesn't mean that we are treating all animals better. It also means that we end up degrading the dignity and the sacredness of what it means to be

a human. There's this Chesterton quote. He was a Catholic theologian and he said like wherever you see animal worship, you also see human sacrifice. It's actually that elevating one thing can degrade, to degrade rather the other thing that was that was, that was really meant for the, you know, adoration that you are giving it. And I think about that with robots. I don't just fear that people are viewing AI or viewing robots as human. And so they're going to treat them with the same politeness and consideration that they would treat another person, but that they will actually degrade how they treat human beings, that they will start treating humans like objects, that they will start treating their, you know, the people that they're with

as robots, as people just to serve them as entities that just exist for their pleasure. I don't know about from your perspective, like what you see the harm is, because I could see people asking, well, what's the problem with them having an AI girlfriend or boyfriend? I'm like, well, it's not what we're meant for. And to be human is to be sacred and we're exchanging that for something far less. And I think it really affects our human relationships. Not to go on that rant, but from your psychological perspective, like, how would you explain to someone, no, this is not a good thing for people.

Well, like you said, I mean, if you are, especially we're looking at kids now, if they're, what they learn about the opposite sex or what they learn about interacting with the opposite sex and relationships and dating and even signaling romantic interest is with a machine, as opposed to a real life person, that's really going to skew their perspective. And I think what young boys find so alluring about this technology, is that they don't ever have to deal with rejection. They don't have to deal with someone potentially saying no or disagreeing or, I mean, both sexes. I guess with girls too who might be using this technology or women saying, okay, I like that my AI boyfriend is always there for me, is always consoling me.

When you are interacting with an AI, the AI doesn't have needs of its own. So it can never say to you, I want to talk about something you don't want to talk about. It's never going to nag you. It's never going to give you a hard time. But that's not the reality of real life relationships. So if you grow up and that's the norm, if and when you do choose to try and date, it's going to be such an awful experience because you're used to your so-called partner giving you exactly what you want all the time. And they're available for you all the time, which other human beings are not. So that's one part of it.

And then also my criticism of porn has come from, I mean, I used to write for a very very, well-known men's magazine that features nude women. I was a regular columnist for that magazine. So my views on porn has, have changed a lot, especially in writing this book. And when I look at what pornography is doing, especially to young minds,

and I would even say to young people more broadly, like I know millennials, we grew up with internet porn. I don't think we were as negatively affected as Gen Z say, but I do think there are some effects there, because there is a literature showing that with early exposure to pornography, it leads to negative outcomes like hypersexuality, greater propensity for risky sex.

So that means having sex with many people, having unprotected sex, being under the influence of drugs and alcohol when having sex. So these are teenagers. They're not making the best decisions. So again, if you are, if this is the norm for you as a child or as a young person and say, now this is available in the context of a physical being, even though it's not a human being, I can't help but think that is going to affect how you view the opposite sex. And also it's going, even if it's not in a sexual interaction, just how men

potentially view women more generally. And that sounds like such a cliche, but at the same time, I don't see, I don't see how that would not be the case because what we consume is going to affect the way we view ourselves and the way we view other people. Yeah. There just seemed to be an argument about that just making the claim based on the fact that what you consume ends up dictating what you think. It just ends up influencing your perspectives. That's not even something that's arguable. And yet you will see people online denying that. Not only when it comes to pornography, but really anything we watch or listen to, that that has no effect on how someone thinks or how someone behaves, but it very obviously does. Um,

I'm interested to hear you expound on that more. You're changing views on pornography specifically. It sounds like before you thought it was maybe like a neutral tool and you're seeing its consequences more and more. Can you kind of go deeper into that? I previously thought that porn was just benign entertainment for adults and that this is something that people look at. It's just, it's their personal business.

and as long as they're not hurting anyone, who am I to judge? And I have to say it's very, the feedback I've gotten in terms of my criticism of porn, I was surprised because it seems to be a very taboo thing. Maybe it's as a woman criticizing porn, which is something that men typically like, although I would say more women are probably having issues with porn nowadays because they were exposed to it at such a young age and because it is so readily available. But I do think for some reason, culturally, it's become so normalized that people understandably like it and they get upset when you tell them it's not good for them, even though, again, I don't think it is. And for me to be willing to change my mind about it was, I mean, asking myself, why is the people are not having sex?

I mean, if you look at the statistics across multiple datasets, the number I kept seeing. is one in three men and one in five women have not had sex in the past year. And this is across all developed countries. It's not just in the West. It's in the East also. And it doesn't matter if you're married or single. I mean, the fact that married people are having less sex to me is very strange and concerning. Not out of judgment, just that when you have a regular sexual partner, it's unusual that people would be choosing not to have sex with them. So I began really asking why is this happening and what is taking the place of that connection? And people had been saying to me for years that porn is doing something weird to people's sex drives

and pulling them away from wanting to actually couple up and diminishing that interest in actual women, like real-life women. And I was very skeptical for so long. But then when I started to really think about it and I went back and looked at the research literature, I thought, you know, porn is so powerful in terms of its ways of activating the brain and acting as a replacement for sex, because the same brain network is activated during porn viewing as is activated during sexual activity. So if you are essentially getting the benefits or what seem to be the benefits of sex or the enjoyment of sex by watching it on a screen, well, it's understandable why young people are not interested in actually engaging with each other.

And I think especially post Me Too, which has made it very difficult for men to want to approach women they don't know or to even interact with women. they do know because they're afraid that if she doesn't appreciate that attention, that she could ruin his life. But I still think people should meet in person. I don't think they should be an app or social media to meet. I understand it's terrifying. But I do think that's a healthier way to do it and a more successful way to do it. And the other thing is because porn, there's a release of with orgasm, you feel good, you're relaxed after. It de-stresses a person.

So it actually dampens the motivation for young men to go out and actually meet women in real life. And I've had young men tell me this that it was only after they actually cut out porn, that they had this renewed motivation to actually go and talk to women in real life. Because if you know, say you're in public and you see an attractive woman, but you're a little bit intimidated. You don't know if you should talk to her. You know on the back of your mind that you can always turn to pornography. Then it really disincentivizes you from taking that risk and actually approaching whoever it is.

Right. So I previously, I just assumed like everyone watches porn, especially for men. But I do think there's this growing movement of young men who are turning away from this because they recognize that it's not good for them and that in some cases it's destroying their life, especially if you're watching it for hours a day, multiple times a day. You can't have a job. You can't go to school. You can't have healthy relationships in that case. And porn viewing, especially excessive porn viewing, tends to be associated with boredom, lack of meaningless, lack of meaning in life, anxiety. So these are issues that need to be addressed as opposed to society telling people, oh, you can watch as much porn as you want and it's not unhealthy. All right. Next sponsor, my friends at Alliance to Finney Freedom. We have talked to many of their guests. We have talked to their attorneys. And that's because I'm just a raving fan of what they do. I love that they are fighting on the front lines for our First Amendment rights, our religious liberty, our freedom of speech, not just here in America, but all around the world, especially Christians who are just fighting for the right to live out their faith in the public. Square, ADF comes to their defense. They're also fighting for the right of women and girls to sex exclusive spaces and teams, fairness and sports. They're just amazing. They're the kind of people and the kind of endeavor that you want to invest in not only for your own freedoms, but for the freedoms of your kids and grandkids. Stand for freedom with a gift today. Your gift will be matched by a special grant while funds last. Go to join adf.com slash alley to make the

impact that's join adf.com slash alley and pornography does have a way of drawing you into more and more intense kinds of pornography correct the things that did it for you in the beginning when you first saw pornography just two people having sex might not do it for you forever and so i've heard of kind of these rabbit holes that especially young men go down that maybe they didn't start looking for a certain kind of pornography or a certain category. It wasn't interesting to them. But as time goes on, they click on a different video. They explore a different category. And suddenly, like, their desires are changed and what they are into and what turns them on and what does it for them, whatever, that changes over time and can actually lead them to the place of what you were talking

about of liking violent sex or liking these kinds of degrading forms of sex and sexual activity that are really not good for them and other people. From your psychological perspective, is that true of how the brain works? I think it depends on at what age someone is when they first start watching online porn. So I would say of, say, older generations where they were not exposed to online porn, especially today's iteration of online porn. If they were not exposed to that prior to puberty or during sexual development, if they have aberrant sexual interests or say non-consensual sexual interests or they're abusive of women, I don't think it's necessarily porn that made them that way or that made them have these interests. It's more likely due to

their upbringing or experiences they had when they were younger that have led them to have negative use of women or to be into various kinks. It's different, I would say, for kids because their brains are not finished developing. And so if they are pairing this, I mean, for kids, when they see pornography, online porn for the first time, many of them find it quite frightening. They don't know what it is, but they know that they shouldn't be looking at it. And in many cases, it's really violent. It's scary.

And they don't like it. But at the same time, they know this is somehow related to sex. So in their mind, they think this is what sex actually is. For older generations, what I've found in my research is that they may say that, they may say that they started off looking at more benign content, and then over time it's the algorithm that fed them, more extreme forms of pornography. But if you actually sit and have an in-depth discussion, many of these individuals will say, actually, that was the thing that they liked all along. It just took them a while to admit it to themselves and actually seek it out.

Whereas with kids, I'm concerned that their exposure to this at such a young age is actually going to increase the likelihood that they're going to find these bizarre things. sexually rousing or these acts enjoyable because they're pairing it with early sexual development. And again, it's crazy to me because there are experts in the field who will say early porn exposure is benign. It doesn't harm children, which I think is absolute nonsense. So, yeah, I mean, when you look at statistics, it's what one in seven kids. The average age that kids see porn now is 12. And that number is getting, that age is getting younger and younger. So when I think of a random group of children, you think of how many of them in that group

have statistically speaking and seen porn, that's not acceptable to me. Yeah. You've studied gender. You're studying sexuality or you've been studying sexuality for a very long time before you even started talking about the idea of transgenderism. Do you see a connection between those two things? I know that I've talked to a lot of detransitioners and many of them, especially men, not really women. For the women that I've talked to, it tends to be that they had some kind of

traumatic sexual event or something that made them want to reject their feminine bodies. For men, very often a commonality that I hear is some kind of sexual desire or a certain kind of porn that they got addicted to. And that's not to say that they never had an idea of being a woman before they saw that kind of porn, but they definitely felt affirmed women. watching, it would be BDSM or it would be like what's called sissy porn or things like that. They felt that, oh my gosh, this is who I really am. And so I'm wondering what you think about that connection that just anecdotally, I tend to see when it comes to men who identify as women and the kind of sexual kinks and pornography

that they participate in or watch. I would agree with you for sure. And I think it's pretty remarkable that in the interviews, you've done, you've noticed the same trends that we see in research as well. So both of those subjects in terms of why young women and young men, or just women and men more broadly are choosing to transition to live as the opposite sex, as you know, is a really contentious area of research. And so there are few studies that are done objectively. But if you speak to people in the field who work predominantly with these populations, they'll tell you the same thing.

So with young women, unfortunately, it tends to be correlated with the history of sexual trauma. And then for men, it is more of a parapheria. So parapherias are unusual sexual interests, and it depends with the men, whether they are identifying as gay or straight. So this is more so, I'd say, in the ones who are straight. So they're sexually attracted to women, but it's like having a cross-dressing fetish, except it is more of a permanent or anatomical fetish around women's bodies and wanting to have a woman's body because they find that sexually rousing. So as you mentioned with sissy porn or something like bimboification, there's an element of sexual masochism there. So that has to do with enjoying being humiliated or degraded, finding that erotic.

And so there's something, unfortunately, obviously I don't think there's anything degrading about being a woman. But as these men view having a woman's body or being seen as a woman humiliating because I guess they're men and also because of the way society can treat women. some context. So treat women as sexualized objects purely, purely that we only exist for men's pleasure. So when these men find the sexually arousing, when they're looking at this pornography, it is appealing to that masochistic aspect. So the aspect of, it's not so much that they identify as women, but it's that they enjoy this idea of being a woman and being subjugated by men. And so especially for younger boys or, say, teen boys who are starting to fall into this with the pornography. If say none of this porn existed or say this was decades ago where older men

might realize they have this sexual proclivity, but the porn is not as easily accessed, they would still find ways of getting it, say, through magazines, but it would just be more difficult for them to achieve that. I think part of the reason why we see such high rates of transitioning now in young people is because of, yes, like you're saying the easy availability of porn, but also societal messaging telling young people, if you question your gender, you must actually be transgender or you must actually be non-binary or what have you. So I would say for these young men, unfortunately, they're being, they're spending more time

online and they're consuming this content. They find it arousing and it's rewarding for them to be doing this over and over again. They might start to actually believe that they're women as opposed to recognizing, no, I'm a man with a parapheria. And especially in the field of the mental health, good luck finding a therapist who's going to be honest with you, right? therapists are basically bound, usually by the licensing body to affirm. So it's very, very difficult for these young men and for the young women to get objective

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What is it inside that institution that would be motivated to deny the parapheria, so-called gender identity connection with men? I mean, if they don't believe that any parapheria is immoral, what would be wrong about making that connection? Why is it that I can only get this through? like information through you, through my own anecdotes, through like more conservative outlets who are willing to report on this and do this research. I'm not really seeing the connection there. Like, why would they deny that this is clearly a pattern when it comes to these men

who want to be women? At the core, my sense is, well, because it's stigmatized, if anything is seen as based in sexuality or sexually motivated, it is stigmatized by society still. we live in the most hypersexual culture that's probably ever existed. And it's less taboo to talk about sex now than ever before. If you say you want to radically change the way you look and live as a woman when you're born a man and this is due to your sexual interests, you're going to have a harder time getting social approval than if you say, this is something in my brain or this is something that is inherent to my identity and how I feel. And it's just that I'm making my outside match my inside, as opposed to saying, this is

something that turns me on and that I think about in a sexual context. And in the field, I'm just thinking of the conversations I've had. And my sense is people who are legitimate clinicians and researchers, they will all acknowledge that autogynophilia exists. So the reason why this has been so downplayed or suppressed in the mainstream discussion is because activists who usually have a lot of gynafilia are the ones saying, no, this is pseudoscience. It doesn't actually exist. These are just hateful researchers who are promoting this because they have their own internalized shame about their sexual interests.

That's my sense of it. And that's why they are so angry and they are so aggressive. And especially if you as a man or a woman, but I think especially as a woman say, as I've seen, I've been witnessing this debate for pretty much a decade, over a decade now, since I started writing about these issues, when women call out these men and say, you are not like us, they are infuriated because I think on some level they know. And there is a lot of guilt and shame about that. And also because as men, it is shameful, I would say, you're born a man, you're meant to be masculine and strong. And instead, you want to be women who are more gentle, nurturing, right?

I don't think there's anything wrong in terms of sex differences. But men and women do have different roles on average in society. and men and women view each other differently. So for you as a man to want to be a woman, I think that's why there's been this, why there's such an overcompensation to say, it's not about sex, it's really about identity. But as you're saying, it is, it's very much contradictory

because if there's no, if there's nothing wrong with anyone's sexual interests, and so long as it's consensual, it's totally acceptable, then why do these activists and researchers feel the need to push an agenda that says, this has nothing to do with sex. If anything, they are behaving in a, quote, sex negative way.

But it's never consistent. I would say it really is just about what's probably going to shut the activists up the most easily. And so if the trans activists tell you, you have to say something. You just, I mean, if you want to keep them happy, you're just going to say what they tell you to say. No, I think you're right because it's true. If they were to say, well, look, this is just a sexual interest or a kink that I have. then there would really be no discussion or debate about whether or not a man, especially an intact man, should be in a woman's locker room taking a shower with women and girls in there.

Even though I know, yeah, that's like a sexual interest that that person has. That's a perversion that person has and they're trying to satisfy that. They probably also, in my mind, have some kind of humiliation fetish and they get off on forcing other people to participate in their delusion. but if that's if that that's not good PR basically that's just not a good campaign most people aren't going to get on board with that even if you are progressive like I think that used to be known that's why in silence of the lambs it was just we didn't have to have it explained to us that this is weird that there was this man who is dressing up like a woman it was just known that that is a strange thing to do and so I do think that they the attempt to separate sexuality

from this gender identity is an effort at normalization. So I think you're exactly right about that. I'm curious what you think about the increased rates of those who identify in Gen Z as LGBTQ. So not just trans, but even putting like everyone knows what I think as a Christian moral perspective about sexuality and marriage and all of that. But just from the psychological perspective, I am curious what you think about going from, you know, virtually zero percent, maybe not zero percent, but a very low percentage of young

people identifying as this acronym to some, say, 20 to 23 percent. I think that's Gallup. That's a lot. That's one fifth of Generation Z who says that they identify as something other than straight. I mean, what do you make of that? I would say that's a lot of time spent on the internet and probably having friends who identify as one of those letters or multiples. of those letters and wanting to fit in. Being young and developing is hard enough as it is. And so when you're seeking support and say a community, now especially I would say within progressive circles,

if you are one or very many of a couple of those or an amalgamation of those letters, you're going to have an easier time finding connection. I mean, even the fact that people use the term queer, queer is a slur. And so what I find is the people who use this term tend to be straight. And it's a way of just finding other people who are progressive.

If you say that you're queer, but among people who say, identify as gay, they would never use that term or they very rarely would use that term. They understand it's a hurtful term. So I think a lot of it is the education system. I've talked about this more in my first book, The End of Gender, but basically that these children are unfortunately being indoctrinated into believing that if you are a good person, you're sympathetic to these communities. And I agree with that to some extent.

I don't think this should be, I don't think it should be to the point where everyone needs to identify as one of these letters to be a kind person. But it's gone so far that these children, I think they grew up believing that if they're sympathetic, it's not enough to be sympathetic. You need to be part of the community.

And then they also get more points, I guess, or they're seen as more valid if they are part of one of these communities. Because you can't change your race. I mean, from a progressive or woke standpoint, point if you're not white, that's ideal, right? White and Asians, we're seen as the, as the aggressors. So you can't really change your race, but you can identify as one of these letters and no one in a progressive camp is going to challenge you on that. So that would be my take on why that is.

But I'm sad for these kids because, again, it's going to leave them very confused and they may enter relationships or go along with things, say, in the dating world that they're not actually okay with and not recognize that it's okay to be straight. It's okay to be, you don't need to identify as transgender to be a worthwhile person or to be a good person. Next sponsor is Good Ranchers. And we actually have some breaking news with our Good Ranchers ad today. And that is that in order to lower beef costs in the U.S., we are about to import 300,000 metric tons of foreign ground beef. It's about to flood the U.S. market. And it might seem when you're going to the grocery store, wow, grocery prices are going down. The price of meat is going down. But the cost of that is still really high because we are relying

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especially when it comes to the men identifying as women issue or the pushing of different kinds of behaviors that clearly, like women get the shorter end of the stick when it comes to sexual promiscuity, when it comes to serial dating, dating apps, pornography, I think bad for men and women, but women are typically, I would say if there's going to be a victim of these things victimized by some of the things we just listed. And yet, sex positive feminists in general are all about all of the things we just talked about. So break that down for us. I don't think casual sex is good for either sex, but especially for women. I think the reasons why it is detrimental for them is slightly different from why it's detrimental

for men. I think just in terms of pair bonding and emotional intimacy, it's not good to have very many partners. And especially in the context of having very many partners whom you don't know well and might never see again after you have one, say, experience with them. But the reason why I would say it's worse for women is because, women do tend to become more attached after sex, whereas for men, hormonally, it's different. So women, there's more bonding hormones are released during sexual activity and during orgasm.

Whereas for men after orgasm, their bonding hormones go back to baseline. So they actually disengage after sex and lose interest in their partner. So a woman becomes more attached, whereas a man becomes less attached. And most research has actually shown that women tend to get into short-term encounters or hookups. with the hope of having a relationship. It's not because they just want to sleep with the guy. Whereas for men, they have a dual mating strategy, so they will slot women into one of two categories.

They will say either she's short-term material like a hookup or friends with benefits or a situation ship, as Gen C calls them, or she's long-term material, as in he plans to hopefully one day marry her and he'll invest more and take her seriously and respect her. So the issue with women selling themselves a short-term is they, especially I think young progressive women, mistakenly think that if a man is sexually interested in them, that's a win. And that means he's going to want to waif them up.

But if you are selling yourself on your sexuality or being promiscuous, you're getting lumped into the short-term category and you're not going to be ever considered long-term material at that point. So that's one part of it. I think it's really irresponsible that very many feminist influencers and podcasters tell their young fans that they should be promiscuous or that they should. should have sex on the first date because you want to vet a guy, make sure that he's good in bed, et cetera. But I sense that these women, they must know that this is horrible advice, because

especially if they are in a long-term relationship or they're married, surely they know that men don't take women seriously if they behave this way. And so they're telling their young fans to engage in behavior that is ultimately going to be self-destructive. And I do think this is an example of introssexual competition in that women compete with other women and men compete with other men for sexual partners. And so if you tell your legion of fans to do things that are going to diminish themselves in the eyes of men, that's going to help you, right, as the influencer. So I find that really sad because I see it, especially with Gen Z women, I've said millennials probably too, really bought into this idea that having sex on the first date is not a big deal that

casual sex. If men can do it, women should do it. And like I said, I believe in being consistent. So I don't think it's fair to shame women if we don't hold men to the same standard. I think both sexes would benefit from being less promiscuous. And also from, again, a practical standpoint, your sexual health, it's better for you to have fewer partners. I don't think it's good for you to, especially if you're on apps. I mean, that's a whole other discussion I could go on for hours about in terms of why it's not conducive to healthy relationships or finding your one true love in terms of the, feeling that people are really disposable and evolutionarily speaking or in terms of what has benefited our ancestors in terms of picking the best mates, you're never going to be sitting in

one place going through hundreds of potential partners. And it gives you the sense that people are replaceable, that you can constantly find someone better. And then I have to say also compounding with this is the concept of hypergamy, the fact that women prefer to date at the same level or date men who are more successful than they are. So if you have to be able, So if you have this imbalance right now where women are typically outperforming their male peers in terms of education and in the workplace, if a woman is going out there having sex with a guy on the first date, so you have fewer men that successful women find attractive. And those men are seen as attractive by all women regardless of their financial status or their educational status because men don't tend to care as much about those status markers in their female peers. So those men are really being propped up and almost incentivized to behave badly because they have no reason to want to settle down. They're not being incentivized if women just keep having sex with them without any obligation or without any expectations.

So this is just further feeding into this dynamic that is really not good for either sex. And I think ultimately why we are seeing the decline in terms of birth rates and the lack of interest in dating, why people have so much burnout around dating apps, especially when you look at big cities, there tends to be this skew in terms of there being more women than men, or especially I would say in progressive cities, urban areas. And the men just basically have an entire roster of women. And the women cannot negotiate for a relationship or marriage because the men say, well, I'm having my fun. And if you don't like it, I'm just going to replace you with somebody else. Yeah, it's really interesting what you're talking about, about replacement, male and female, when it comes to act.

apps. So, you know, I've thought obviously about the health of apps and I'm very glad that I did not meet my husband on an app. It was really before like tender became a thing and I'm just so thankful that we met the old fashioned way. And you can kind of see some of the obvious issues with being able to swipe left or right. It's superficial. It's based on aesthetics. But one thing that you said that I hadn't thought about is that having more options is not, it's a historical anomaly. So our ancestors before us did not have this roster of people within, you know, a 200-mile radius that they were judging based on a self-assessment and pictures. I want you to talk a little bit more about that. Why is it not always better to have more options? Why is it not always better

to be able to get a feel for someone digitally before you meet them in person? Why is it not always better to like, you know, not just marry the person that your family knows, but someone that you met online. Yeah, well, the paradox of choice speaks to this. So there's, there have been studies showing that when people are given more options or when people are given fewer options, they're more likely to actually make a choice and to be satisfied with that choice. So when you're on a dating app, it feels as though there is an unlimited number of potential partners. And so people are constantly seeking the next best thing. And as I've heard stories of people who are on dates and they'll still be swiping when they're on a date with another person across the table from them. So it speaks to the

mentality of really, I don't think, I think there are very many of us who are just not present in terms of the dating process. And that's part of, I would say that's a side effect of being online and just how so much of romantic interest or courtship is based through online connections or lack there of, I suppose, nowadays. But when you look again to the scientific research in terms of what predicts marital satisfaction or long-term success in a relationship, it's personality factors like agreeableness, kindness. People tend to look for a sense of humor and intelligence in their partners. And you can't get a sense of that from dating apps. And I initially thought when dating apps first came about or say online dating came about that this was a novel way and

potentially a positive way for people to meet outside of their immediate social circles. especially if you didn't want to date at work or say your program at school or what have you. But because it is a commercial enterprise, understandably, these companies don't benefit from people finding someone and never needing to use the app ever again. And the fact that they are based very much in physical appearance. So when you see someone's bio, you see a bunch of photos, you see whatever they chose to write, and then you might text back and forth, you might have a video call. But that's still not the same as actually meeting someone.

in real life and getting to know them in real life. And I think the issue with selecting someone based on photos in terms of how attractive you find them, not everyone is photogenic. And then also a majority of men who are on these platforms are actually married or in a relationship. So that from day one sets you on an unfortunate path if you do decide to try and date that person. And so the metrics by which people are choosing their partners are not actually feeding into

or conducive of a healthy relationship because these are characteristics. that you can only learn about someone with time. And my sense is when you're on the app, because it feels like there are so many possible partners out there, people are not really giving individual people the time investment that they deserve to get to know someone. They're constantly distracted with all of these options. And there's also this sense of wanting to do better all the time.

And I think part of that is also social media and images that we see there in that you could always be someone, you could always be with someone who's better looking or richer, or who treats you better. And I find that that form of content is the most alarming because there's no shortage of people on social media complaining about. I find it used to be people talking about how great their spouse was, but now it's more so how awful their spouses and how they can't wait to divorce them or how bad their first date

was. And then their entire community is coalescing around influencers to just talk about how terrible dating is. And so it just overall puts this really awful chill, I think, on relations between men and women and people wanting to couple up. And people also being open and vulnerable when they go into a dating situation, instead, people tend to expect the worst of the opposite sex. And so if you met someone through a friend, like back in the day or through, say, an organic situation, like if you are at university or if you're at the store and someone talks to you, it's very different. You would

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Use code alley for a free month of service. Patriotmobile.com slash alley code alley. I was thinking as you were talking about one of the things that is lost when you meet someone online that you have no connection to at all. I mean, even Hinge, I think that does rest upon you having some kind of connection, but it doesn't have to be, it doesn't really have to be a real one. There's such low risk in like the worst way. It's not even that, okay, you're not risking a lot as you're swiping through, but even if you swipe right on the person and you start talking to them, there is very little risk that you're going to run into this person. Y'all's parents

probably don't know each other. Your friends probably don't know each other. You probably don't go to the same church. You probably don't run in the same circles. And so the risk of ghosting someone and then being called out by your mutual friends or like, you know, her mom calling your mom and being like, what's going on here? The risk is so low. And there's so little. potential friction that I think people also just treat others worse on this app because there is no fear of shame. There's no fear of being called out. I mean, who's going to hold this person accountable? I mean, you forget about this person. You come up with different plans. You totally stand them up on the date. You can go out that night, get a drink, go to work the next day and completely forget you did that

because this isn't a real person with feelings. I've watched this happen, except it is a real person with feelings. That woman now is really hurt, even though she wasn't in love with the guy, she had her hopes up. And now, as you said, she is more conditioned to think, well, this is just men. Or this is just me. Like, this is how I deserve to be treated or this is just how men treat women. And then they go into social media. And as you said, the algorithm feeds that kind of thing. And I mean, we can get into the technology of like our, you know, apps knowing what we do and what we're going through, but you get on TikTok, you get on Instagram, and it's each sex talking about the other one and how hard it is and how terrible it is. And so I think it's also just setting single people up

for failure, all of the ways in which we are being driven apart through technology. Yeah, I agree with you. And if you talk to anyone who is on the apps, they will tell you what a miserable time. They're either having or have had, which is really unfortunate because you see the, I mean, it's been how long now, I'd say 15 probably years that this technology has become mainstream. And I do think a lot of the burnout and the jadedness that people feel around dating if they have used these apps is part of that because, as you said, people are not held to the same standard. And if you go through this process of constantly being ghosted or being treated badly on there, it really starts to generalize to the opposite sex more broadly and to say, well, I would

say especially for younger people, like say Gen C, who grew up in a time where dating ups always existed or social media always existed, they can't imagine meeting someone outside of these platforms. They don't know how. It seems like a foreign concept to them. And they'll say, how do people meet before social media? Like, was there such a thing or before dating apps? So if you say to them, hey, maybe try meeting off of these platforms, they have no idea.

They have no idea how to do it. And I think also culturally, the norms have changed so much that people do frown upon meeting in real life to some extent. Like strangers talking or approaching each other in public is seen as weird nowadays, which is, I think, a really unfortunate thing. Yeah. Everything that you're talking about from the dating apps to the AI girlfriend, boyfriend, the sex robots, it's just seeking frictionless pleasures, frictionless relationships.

And it makes sense when you think about the rest of our lives, especially as millennials, and certainly Gen Z, so much of our lives has been about instant gratification. And it hasn't been where we have to wait, that we have to work, that we have to just say, you know what, I'm going to learn how to deal with this uncomfortable, inconvenient thing, because it's good for me. Inconvenience has been seen my entire life as an impediment that needs to be overcome or, you know, try to short circuit it somehow. So it makes sense that all of that is affecting how young people think about marriage,

how they think about sex, how they think about relationships. What is, in your mind, the way out of this? Because this is a very bleak picture of intimacy and fertility and marriage, these building blocks of society to not just allow it to survive, but thrive. So what do we do? I have one chapter in sex sanction that is dedicated on reproductive technology and also endocrine disruptors and environmental toxins that may be affecting our libido and our psychology at a biological level.

And in that case, it may be affecting us in ways that we are not fully aware of. So I would definitely recommend people if they're interested in this to check that out because I list all the studies and I talk about how there are things like pharmaceutical waste or something as simple as plastic. I mean, I think there's more of a discussion going on about how these toxins are potentially tinkering with our hormones, but something like the birth control pill, which is almost ubiquitous among women. Most women will be using some form of contraception throughout life where the pill is especially quite popular. And it affects the way, it affects your mating strategy. It affects your

desire to even be, to achieve, or I'd say attract male attention in ways that I don't think the public is necessarily aware of. And then also this larger issue with testosterone. testosterone decline and how it's affecting men's motivation, both sexually and otherwise, are important pieces to the puzzle because if we don't rectify the biological component or the biological issues, no amount of social awareness or change in policy is going to effectively rectify this issue. And so I would say in terms of solutions, physical health, mental health are very important. We are experiencing a mental health crisis right now, especially I would say among younger generations, in terms of depression and anxiety, use of antidepressants is through the roof.

Antipressants have been approved in children as young as age six. We do not know the long-term effects of this class of drugs nor of birth control or the birth control pill on sexual development, which might be surprising to some people, but that's just the reality of it, considering how many young people or children are being put on these medications. And that's not to say that people should get off of their medication, but I think it's important just to be aware of what we are consuming and also how this might be affecting us internally because if you are not physically healthy or if your mind is being affected in certain ways that you're not aware of again that has lasting potentially lasting repercussions.

And so that's one piece of it. I'd say, you know, in the book I'm really focused on also things like physical health and you can't be mentally healthy or healthy in a relationship. if you are not taking care of your physical health. And I would also say just having, well, trying to be as traditional as possible in terms of not relying on these technologies to meet people, not relying on, say, online interactions to feed that desire to connect and also to recognize that a lot of the content we are exposed to is biased because it's being created and promoted by people who are trying to make money off of us. So if you don't personally know someone who's giving you advice, they're probably not giving you the best advice. That would be my overarching suggestion with regard to, say, people who might feel lost in dating.

I really wrote this book just try and speak to people's frustration about dating and how they can hopefully make better choices or become maybe more aware of their own decisions or how they live their life to improve the chances of finding someone who's right for you. But I would say more broadly just to not be afraid of being countercultural and to say just because society is telling me to go along with certain things, we touched on this a bit in the discussion with pornography. But I would say if you, especially as a woman, feel that there are things you don't want to do sexually or that you feel pressure to do because the culture is telling you to. It's totally okay to say no. And choking is one of those trends that's very popular right now. I've yet to speak to anyone in Genzi who has not experienced this, and both male and female. to know it's very dangerous and it is potentially fatal and that it can lead to all kinds of negative repercussions down the line in terms of mental health issues, especially if there's

any form of brain inflammation as a result. You may not necessarily pass out, but that doesn't mean that brain cells aren't being affected or dying. And again, so anxiety that I do question nowadays, especially with the rates of anxiety being so high among young people, does this have something to do with it? Because if you are affected, you're basically suppressing oxygen flow to the brain that's going to affect its function. And there has been research showing that choking is associated or sexual choking or strangulation is associated with brain inflammation and also clinical dissociation later in life. So this is a practice that is seen as empowering for women to be, which is absolutely insane. When I say this, I can't even believe it sometimes

still that this is seen as something if women want to be choked or basically physically hurt during sex. This is empowering for them and this is sexual liberation and this is great for women because they're enjoying themselves. I don't believe most women actually enjoy this. I think they're doing it because they feel pressured because of what they've seen in porn at a young age and because potentially what their male partners want or maybe because both sexes think this is what the other sex wants because of what they've seen in porn and they're doing things that neither wants to actually do but they're afraid to say so because they don't want to potentially turn the other person off.

So yeah, just do what feels right for you. And also, you know, my discussion, I love the discussions you've had about infertility and just women, reproductive tech and just telling women, you know, how to think critically about these issues. Because that's another part of it. I see very many women choosing to delay fertility and getting to a point where they're realizing that, oh, you know, they didn't realize that their biological window was finite. And now they're relying on technology that isn't a guarantee. So that's a bit of a different discussion.

but it's leading to the separation. And I'm saying if you want to find love and you want to get married and have children, then really prioritize that because you don't know what obstacles you're going to come in the way in terms of finding the right person or if you do have fertility issues down the line. Yeah, gosh, that's also good. I could talk to you for hours and hours about all of this. There are so many avenues that I wanted to go down. But I really encourage people to get your book because you talk about dating.

You talk about the health on the mental and the physical side. You talk about the difference between just having a bunch of sex and actual intimacy and why intimacy really matters, not just on the individual level, but the societal level, too. And so this is just such great timing and this discussion is so necessary. So everyone go buy your book, Sex Dinction. Dr. Soh, thank you so much. Thank you so much, Alibath.