Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1398 | Heresy? Alisa Childers Addresses Her “Forgiveness” Controversy

Starting point is 00:00:00 There is a therapeutic version of forgiveness that actually came into the church through the self-help movement. What it essentially teaches is that forgiveness is largely just like a solo act that you do in your own mind and in your own heart with the purpose of giving yourself a kind of emotional release from the pain that you have being sinned against by another person. That's something that you just have to do really hard work inside of yourself to forgive them. Sometimes I think we mistake some of the other. commands in the Bible, like pray for those who persecute you, bless those who curse you, love your enemies. Those are things that are good and we need to be doing all the time. But sometimes I think they get conflated with what forgiveness actually is.

Starting point is 00:00:54 Hey, y'all, welcome to Relatable. Happy Monday. Hope everyone had a wonderful weekend, that your week is off to a great start. Okay, y'all, I am 34 weeks pregnant as of yesterday, which is crazy. Now, for me, I know that a lot of y'all are thinking, oh, my gosh, you're so close. You're in the home stretch. Well, actually, for me, I am probably still seven weeks away from giving birth. It's crazy that you can have that range from like four weeks from now or seven weeks from now. Obviously, God can do whatever he wants to.

Starting point is 00:01:31 And I might deliver at any point, I guess, in the next month and a half or so. But I learned it took me until this pregnancy to learn that if you have gone past, your estimated due date in previous pregnancies, you are more likely to go past your estimated due date in your subsequent pregnancies. I guess I just thought it was a coincidence. I probably thought, yeah, this is how my body works. My first came at 40 weeks, five days, but that was an induction that my doctor just was like, we should just do this. There was no medical reason for it whatsoever. Baby and I were totally fine. That didn't work because my body wasn't ready. So that ended in a C-section, very thankful for a healthy baby, but that is not how the birth should have gone.

Starting point is 00:02:15 That's not what should have happened. She probably would have cooked in there for, I don't know, another week or so. So she probably would have come at like 42 weeks. And then my second, I did go into spontaneous labor, but that was at, gosh, 41 and two or 41 and one, I think. And then that sadly also ended in a C-section, but it was medically necessary. And then the third baby was our V-back baby and did not go into spontaneous labor. I don't have to go into all the details. I didn't get like a potosin induction or anything like that. But we did end up after getting some help, a folly bulb. I did go into labor later and she came at 41 and 5. And so I just have no idea what's going to happen with this birth. It could go all the way to 42 weeks, which I am like

Starting point is 00:03:06 mentally and spiritually preparing for. I'm telling myself that this pregnancy will last that long. And if we are pleasantly surprised that I'm only pregnant for 39 weeks, then that is, that will be, that will be wonderful. But I'm hunkering down and I'm telling myself that I still have like seven plus weeks left. That's just how like your body, everyone's different. Every woman is different. And anyone who tells you that you have to give birth at 39 weeks for no medical reason. It's just not true. So we're being patient, enjoying these last few weeks. It is very hot where I am. That makes third trimester pregnancy much more difficult. I'm in a heat dome right now. And you know what? In the third trimester of my last pregnancy, we were also in a heat dome.

Starting point is 00:03:52 I don't know what's up with that, but it does make the patients a little bit harder, but we're super excited. We have not revealed the gender yet. A lot of you have guessed. I think it's probably 60-40. It seems like 60% of you think that we're having. a boy, our first boy, and then the rest of you think that we're having another girl. I don't know. We'll tell you. We'll tell you after the baby is born, but we're excited. We are, whether it is in a few weeks or whether it's in seven weeks, we are indeed in the home stretch. And I'm feeling pretty good considering kind of tired. I've got that pregnancy insomnia that wakes me up at like 3 a.m. But overall, I'm actually feeling really good for my fourth pregnancy. Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord for

Starting point is 00:04:32 that. And if you're doing some calculations right now and you haven't done the calculation yet, you're like, hang on, you are 34 weeks, share the arrows is in three weeks. You're telling me that you're going to be 37 weeks when you do share the arrows. Yes. And you know what? Because God is sovereign, God's eternal plan of redemption is going off without a hitch. He knew. He knew when this baby started growing in my belly exactly when the baby would be born, when share the arrows would be. I guess it's a possibility that I could give birth at or before Share the Arrow's. But because my babies like to stay in a little bit longer, that is what gives us the confidence to be able to go to Share the Arrow's and host to Share the Arrows.

Starting point is 00:05:14 I'm not worried about that at all. It would be so outside of the norm for me to go into labor early. A lot of you have been worried about that. Okay, I bought these tickets. You've booked your travel. You're going to come to share the arrows and you're like, what if Ali is not there? because she is giving birth. I highly doubt that that is going to happen.

Starting point is 00:05:33 It would be a fun story, though, if that's what occurred at Share the Aeros. Share the Aeros this year is brought to you by our friends at Adele Natural Cosmetics. And I'm so excited about it. Yes, I will be large and in charge. I will be waddling on stage. I've joked with my teen that they should just put like a lazy Susan in the middle of the stage. And I can just like spin around sitting on a chair and talk to you guys since the

Starting point is 00:05:56 stage is in the middle. But I'll be fine. you know what, the Lord is going to sustain me. And that's like my last big hurrah before the baby comes and I can like just be full on in nesting mode. And I'm so excited to spend one of the days of my last few weeks of pregnancy with some of my favorite people in the world. That of course is you. I love my audience so much. If you're new to this audience and you want to meet like minded Christian women, then you need to come to share the arrows. If you want to make lifelong friendships, don't be worried about coming by yourself. You can totally come by yourself.

Starting point is 00:06:29 not going to feel awkward, you're not going to be alone. I promise, whoever you sit by is going to invite you to lunch. She's going to offer to hold your baby. She's going to offer to pray with you. She's going to worship next to you. Anyone who has met my audience, they are salt of the earth women who just want to glorify God in every area of their lives. I am truly so blessed by the Lord with the women in my audience. And that's why I just love share the arrows. I can't wait to worship with you with Shane and Shane. I've been trying to come up with. with a set list, like it's a little vintage, y'all. And by vintage, I mean like 90s, early 2000s, which is going to be super fun. We've got Rosaria Butterfield. We've got Alisa Childers.

Starting point is 00:07:10 We've got Natasha Crane. We've got Audrey Brogie, Grayson, Castleberry, Kastie Hen. It's going to be so good, y'all. Share the arrows.com. You can use my code Alley 20. You'll get 20% off. Bring your small group. Bring your friends. Go ahead. Make those last minute travel plans and join us there. And as you already heard me say, I just want to remind you as we do every Monday, God's eternal plan of redemption is going off without a hitch. No matter what's going on in your life, no matter what's going on in the world, no matter what they say about AI, destroying the universe, no matter what is going on with predictions for the midterms, no matter even what is going on with the tragedies around the world today, we know that nothing hinders the will of God,

Starting point is 00:07:56 that his eternal plan of redemption, his seeking and saving of the lost, the advancement of his kingdom, the going out of his gospel, the seeking and saving his lost sheep, all of that is happening unhindered on a second by second basis by a God who cannot be interrupted or deterred. Like that is the God we serve. And when I think about like the problem of evil, that's a big philosophical and theological subject that is discussed a lot. You know, the amazing thing about Christianity, atheists and agnostics, understandably so think that that question about the problem of evil can be the thing that, like, stumps a Christian and completely dismantles the idea of this all good, all-knowing, all-powerful God.

Starting point is 00:08:44 How can it all-powerful, all-knowing God allow all of this suffering? The incredible thing about Christianity is that it doesn't try to hide that. The Bible is all about suffering. The Bible is all about God doing things that man does not understand and that don't seem right to us or don't always seem good to us, but it's about this eternal, grand plan of redemption that even in all of these confusing things, these chaotic moments, these tragic and unjust times is still going off without a hitch. The answer to me for the problem of evil is not that, well, maybe God is not all powerful. And so he just has to allow. this stuff to happen, but that he allows terrible things to happen for reasons that we don't

Starting point is 00:09:29 understand and that he's not doing nothing. He's not doing nothing. That all of it is working together for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose. And that one day he is going to avenge his people. One day he's going to do something about evil, that his wrath right now is actively kindling. So all of the injustice and the true oppression, the persecution, the abuse, the exploitation that you use, the exploitation that you see throughout the world, God is not doing nothing about it. He just doesn't exist on our timeline. He's not constrained by time and space. He doesn't have to respond the way that we think he should respond in the moment, but he will respond. He will respond. That is the answer to the problem of

Starting point is 00:10:09 evil existing with an all good, all powerful, all knowing God. That God is not ignoring it. He's not doing nothing about it. He's going to do something about it. And we want to be on the right side of things when he does. And that is the good news that by grace through faith in Christ, you can be on the right side of things. You can be reconciled to this perfect and holy God by the blood of Jesus by grace through faith. So that's the good news. And you know what? That's the best news ever. Even in the midst of darkness, even in the midst of injustice, God's eternal plan of redemption is going off without a hitch. And the good news of the gospel is always reason enough to rejoice. All right. Let me pause. Tell you.

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Starting point is 00:11:36 It's super cleansing. It's moisturizing. I love their essential moisturizer as well. I use all of their products. I have been loving. I've had it forever. But I have been loving, their moisturizing bronzing stick. My skin has been a little bit dry lately, so I feel like I can get all of, I need all the moisture I can get. And I love their makeup that it's moisturizing. Go to adele natural cosmetics.com. Use code relatable for this month only, all customers, all customers, not just new ones, get 20% off with my code. Adelaanatural cosmetics.com, code relatable. In just a few minutes, we'll be talking to one of our Share the Aeros speakers, and that is Alisa Childers. She's the only speaker that has been to share the

Starting point is 00:12:24 arrows all three years. And that is because she's not only a dynamic, a dynamic speaker, but she is also such a solid teacher. And I know that she takes the word of God seriously, that she has a firm grasp on the gospel, and that she is going to be able to tell you the truth in a way that is both charming and enduring. It's in a way that it's really going to stick and you don't even realize that you've just been given a bunch of tough love because of how kindly, yet how powerfully she says it. So I was so surprised when I started getting messages from some of you saying, have you heard what Alisa Childers is saying on this podcast? Have you heard about what she's saying about forgiveness? This is not only unbiblical. This is

Starting point is 00:13:10 anti-gospel. And I'm like, Elisa Childers, Elisa Childers being anti-Gospel on biblical. I haven't seen it. I've never seen it. And now, but I also understand, okay, I've definitely said things that maybe I could have been more careful about saying that people have accused me of believing something that is false. Or maybe I truly did need to be corrected on something were fallible human beings. And so I went to this clip. And this clip shows Elisa's will play in just a second saying something about forgiveness that a lot of people found very controversial.

Starting point is 00:13:42 Here it is. It's been so hard for me in the last year, just thinking about like, how can I ever forgive someone like Candice Owens. The Bible says to forgive as Christ forgave, but Christ doesn't forgive everyone. He forgives those who repent and turn and trust in him by faith. But forgiveness is something that you can't actually offer somebody if they haven't repented. Okay, so many of you have come to me about this saying, well, this is just not true. You are supposed to forgive no matter what. And I understand where you're coming from. And I'm not going to respond to that yet. I'm going to allow Elisa to do that in just a second.

Starting point is 00:14:19 But this is actually a topic that we have talked about before. Like what does biblical forgiveness look like? The first verse about forgiveness that comes to mind for me is from Ephesians 432. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another as God in Christ forgave you. I mean, that alone is a very big task. Because when we think about a perfect and holy God who had every reason to give you, would every reason to give us wrath, every reason and every justification to punish us, choosing to forgive us, to give us his mercy and grace, that's really big.

Starting point is 00:14:54 If I'm supposed to treat my friends that way, if I'm supposed to treat my fellow members of the body of Christ that way, that is a really big responsibility. That's a really big ask that I'm going to have to tap into the Holy Spirit, completely rely on the Holy Spirit to do. But when you think about what precedes God's forgiveness, it's not consistent. to run from him and rebel from him, it is that by grace through faith exchange. It is that repentance, that coming to our needs, knees and asking for God's forgiveness. Now, even that repentance, even that turning to God, falling to our knees and asking for

Starting point is 00:15:30 his grace, that is powered by the Holy Spirit. That is powered by grace. So even that we cannot take credit for it. I can't say that I had some kind of contribution or participation in my salvation because even the asking of forgiveness comes from the power and the grace of God. But God is not willy-nilly doing anything, but willy-nilly giving forgiveness to anyone and everyone. This is not a blanket kind of forgiveness. There is an exchange and there is an action and a reaction in a way, if I can use human

Starting point is 00:16:04 terms, that might not be exactly correct when we're talking about the exchange that's given to us by God. but there is something like an action and a reaction going on there when we're talking about God's forgiveness to us. And Alisa is here. She is going to explain this very well. But I also just want to say before I allow her to much more eloquently and theologically explain her reasoning behind what she was saying, I just kind of want to give a note about

Starting point is 00:16:32 social media. And I understand that I have been in like the commentary space for a long time. And so because of that, you develop thicker skin. I'm not saying I have completely impenetrable skin. I definitely get offended or I get sad about things or things can hurt my feelings. And so I'm not trying to say I'm unconditionally tough. But you do over time putting yourself out there, putting your opinions forward, trying your best to bring biblical clarity as a fallible human.

Starting point is 00:17:02 You get a lot. You get a lot of pushback. You get a lot of criticism, a lot of critiques. Some of it is valid and you need to learn from. You need to consider the source. You need to consider the substance. And then you can learn from it. And then others is just not.

Starting point is 00:17:15 Like they're taking you out of context. They're always looking for a reason to attack you or nitpick you or something like that. Or they're just plain wrong in their criticism according to scripture. And so you really have to weigh that. But you become pretty good at navigating it. And you get some thick skin. And you also realize, okay, I don't like it when people misinterpret me. I don't like it when people take me out of context.

Starting point is 00:17:39 You know, I don't like it when people don't consider everything that I've said and just look at one particular thing and write me off because I think that's silly and emotional. And I, so I don't want to do that to other people. So how I approach social media just as someone who has been in this space for a long time, I understand it's probably different than just your average social media participant. And so I just want to encourage you that. when you see someone that you otherwise trust and that you know is solid biblically, not to rush to judgment and condemnation, but to pause for a second.

Starting point is 00:18:18 This is why do I have to do this all the time, by the way, because there are so many things that people say that I disagree with. Sometimes they're my friends. Sometimes there are people I really trust. And I listen to what they say. And I'm like, oh, that doesn't sound right or that doesn't sit right with me or I don't really like that. And you know what I don't do?

Starting point is 00:18:33 I don't immediately comment publicly or leave like a passive. aggressive remark somewhere or immediately start warning people away from them. Unless it is just blatant anti-gospel, totally unbiblical truth. But even then, if I know the person, I'm going to reach out to them and I'm going to say, what's going on here? I've been a part of those conversations, by the way, with truly godly biblical women in the online space, like in text being like, hey, what did you mean by this? Because I'm not so sure that's actually biblical.

Starting point is 00:19:00 And like, godly women and godly friendships are going to be able to withstand that because that is iron sharpening iron. I think it's totally fine to provide healthy and good and, you know, respectful feedback to someone. You don't have to agree every single time. But I do think that there can be more benefit of the doubt given when you know that person's track record is one of integrity and one of being biblically solid. And we're just so incredibly reactive on social media. And I understand not everyone goes by that rule. But when I see my friends say something that I'm not so sure about or maybe I just like, I don't know, I'm going to check the context.

Starting point is 00:19:38 I'm going to check with them. Or if I don't have time to do that, you know what I do? I ignore it. I ignore it. And I'm like, okay, they said that one thing. I'm not talking about this with Elisa, because as you'll hear, she has a really good explanation for what she's talking about. But just in general, like, sometimes my friends will say something.

Starting point is 00:19:54 And I'm like, yeah, I totally don't agree with that. And you know what? I find myself doing that a lot with my very good Catholic friends. My very good Catholic friends who I know are so solid on so many things. And we agree on so many things and so many important things. and so many important things, they're going to say things about Catholicism. They're going to say things about purgatory, praying to the saints that I do not agree with. And we've had backs and back and forths about this, both on the podcast and privately.

Starting point is 00:20:20 But I'm just not, if they're my friend, like, I'm just not going to call them out publicly. I'm just not going to. I just think that there is a little bit more respect that we can pay each other. And Elisa is as solid as it gets, as solid as it gets when it comes to apologize and theology. And so I think your first thought should be, even if you didn't think that you initially agreed, to say, hmm, I want to hear more. I want to hear more because I know this woman studies the word of God and takes it seriously. And so I want to understand more where she's coming from. Now, maybe you'll listen to this conversation and you'll still be like, nope, I just don't see it

Starting point is 00:20:56 that way. I don't think that that is correct. That's, that's fine. But I think that if you listen to her you will understand better biblically where she's coming from and that what she's talking about is actually according to scripture really good news. All right. I'll read you one sponsor and then we'll get into that conversation with my good friend, Elisa Childers. If you want your kids and your teens especially to know what's going on in the world, but you don't want them scrolling through Instagram to figure it out, certainly not TikTok or reading the news outlets online, which so often are dishonest, sensationalist. They're not coming from a biblical worldview. then you need to sign up for World Watch.

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Starting point is 00:22:06 Worldwatch. news slash alley code alley. Alisa, thanks so much for joining us. All right, we're going to talk about some, I don't know, blowback hot water that you got into. You were talking about Candice Owens. You're talking about forgiveness. And in a social media clip, you said, or I saw it on Instagram saying, look, you don't have to forgive someone who has not repented.

Starting point is 00:22:36 And that seems to have caused some confusion among people of what that means, where is that supported in scripture and all of that. So I'll just kind of give you the floor. What is meant by that? Right. Well, the context of those comments where they came in was really from Alex on the Culture Apothecary podcast asking me about forgiveness because I've done some content on that. And it's, you know, it's hard to capture a fully comprehensive thought just in a short reel, especially when you don't have control over the editing. So I appreciate the opportunity to kind of flesh this out a little bit.

Starting point is 00:23:12 I want to be really clear that I think what people heard me saying was that, oh, you have an excuse as a Christian to not forgive someone, or you can harbor unforgiveness, or you can hold a grudge against somebody. And of course, that is not at all what I'm saying. The Bible is really clear that it commands us to forgive 70 times seven. This is something that's all throughout Scripture, and it's very important that we as Christians practice, And so I think where the confusion comes in, though, is that there is a therapeutic version of forgiveness that actually came into the church through the self-help movement.

Starting point is 00:23:46 And what it essentially teaches is that forgiveness is largely just like a solo act that you do in your own mind and in your own heart with the purpose of giving yourself a kind of emotional release or some sort of relief from, you know, the pain that you have being sinned against by another person. person. And so that's something that you just have to do really hard work inside of yourself to forgive them. And that's what's being taught as forgiveness. But really the Bible frames forgiveness a lot differently. In fact, I just want to read from Luke 17. This is where Jesus is talking about forgiveness. And he says, pay attention to yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him. If he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in the day and turns to you seven times saying, I repent, you must forgive him. And so the argument is essentially that forgiveness is a very specific solution to a very specific problem. When somebody

Starting point is 00:24:40 sins against you, it's you offering them a pardon from the moral debt that's created when they repent. And so that's something that Bible commands us to do. And so I think people misunderstood me saying that it's okay to not forgive and we can harbor forgiveness, unforgiveness. And sometimes I think we mistake some of the other commands in the Bible, like pray for those who persecute you bless those who curse you, love your enemies. Those are things that are good and we need to be doing all the time. But sometimes I think they get conflated with what forgiveness actually is. And so the argument really is that we are commanded to forgive as a interrelational thing that involves two people.

Starting point is 00:25:22 It's not just a solo act that you do within your own heart. So what does it look like as a solo action in our own heart if someone has not repented? Whether it's someone that we don't really know, but we see them doing something online and we are just so incensed by what they're doing, maybe righteously incensed by what they're doing, or whether it's someone that harmed us. And that relationship is not going to be restored for whatever reason, at least right now. What does it look like in our hearts if we cannot have that exchange of forgiveness? Right. And I think that's where all the passages of Scripture come in that tell us to treat other people as we would have them treat us. Pray for those who persecute you.

Starting point is 00:26:13 Bless those who curse you. Love your enemies. We need to be praying for people who have wronged us. We need to have a heart that is willing to offer forgiveness to them should they repent. So I think there's a general posture of forgiveness. And I think it's interesting, too, when you ask that question, I think Jesus perfectly shows this heart on the cross. when he says, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. I think this was Jesus asking the father, you know, bring the gospel to these people, give them the opportunity to repent and trust

Starting point is 00:26:42 because if Jesus wanted to authoritatively declare their sins forgiven, this is why this matters, if he was doing that in that prayer, if, you know, he could have done it. He's a thought, he had the authority to forgive sins. He did that in his earthly life. But there was always an interrelational thing that was happening when he did that. So when somebody, when Jesus, Jesus declared someone's sins forgiven in the Gospels, there was at least a turn toward him in faith. And faith and repentance are, you know, two sides of the same coin. So you see that. But on the cross, Jesus prays.

Starting point is 00:27:13 And he says, Father, forgive them. And that is Jesus' heart posture. I think that we should also have toward people who have wronged us a willingness to forgive. We're not holding on to bitterness. We're not holding grudges. But that's a different thing than actually biblical forgiveness. And I'll tell you why I think this matters so much. A lot of people have encountered really horrific abuses.

Starting point is 00:27:35 And then often what happens is people will incorrectly, or what I believe is an unbiblical version of forgiveness, they'll be taught that. And that puts all of the burden and the pressure on the person who's been abused to, you know, you have to be the one forgive them. And then they start to measure their forgiveness based on their feelings. Well, do I feel like I'm released from this person? Do I feel good feelings toward this person? And that determines whether or not they believe they have forgiven this person.

Starting point is 00:28:00 But in reality, the Bible gives very specific instructions about how to go about that, pray for that person, have a heart that's willing to forgive. I mean, that takes a lot of work sometimes when we've been hurt. But the actual act of forgiveness is not even available if there's not that interpersonal relationship of the person coming in repentance. I think another good example of that that comes to mind is Stephen. As he's being stoned to death, he says, you know, Lord Jesus, receive my soul. Spirit, Lord, do not hold this sin against him. It's, or against them, rather. It's a very similar prayer to what Jesus prayed, but that is not also declaring them

Starting point is 00:28:40 all righteous. That's not declaring them not responsible for their sin. To me, it sounds like a hope of repentance, a hope of reconciliation between God and these people. Of course, that's what he spent his dying breath doing is preaching the gospel to them. And I think if people took that to the logical. because I saw people in the comments posting the two passages that we talked about as a way to refute you. But if they took that to their logical conclusion, what they're arguing is that these two

Starting point is 00:29:10 passages say that we have to, you know, have that exchange of forgiveness without any repentance or any restoration or any movement toward them at all. Well, is that also, I mean, we're talking about selfific kind of forgiveness in these two passages. We know that that's not how the forgiveness of the Lord works, is that we don't just get to say, well, I didn't know what I was doing. And someone said, don't hold that sin against me.

Starting point is 00:29:38 And then I was saved and then I was reconciled to God. Yes, it's by grace through faith, but that grace leads us to a repentance that the Lord uses through faith for our reconciliation and for our restoration. So there's just some, like, it's kind of a category error, I think, and some confusion there about what those passages actually mean. And again, I think it's so important that you're not saying to harbor bitterness because that is also against what Christians are called to do, do away with all bitterness and

Starting point is 00:30:10 wrath and anger along with all malice forgiving one another as God and Christ forgave you. And so we are called to that. But you're talking about that kind of interpersonal exchange, alleviation of debts that forgiveness does, and that requires some movement from the other person, right? That's right. And even taking your point a little further, Jesus on the cross, if he was declaring all of those people forgiven of their sins, well, that means that they were reconciled to God and they're in heaven apart from putting faith in Christ, which really is universalism. So we have to be careful because the Bible says for us to forgive us, God forgives, And God forgives repentant people.

Starting point is 00:30:51 So I think sometimes you're right, it's a category error. It's mistaking other things like praying for those who persecute us and blessing those who curse us and all of the things we're supposed to be doing from a posture of the hope of forgiveness, conflating that with what actual forgiveness is. It's not letting anybody off any kind of a hook to hold a grudge or be better. But it's just being really careful that we define things the way God does because you're right, There is a salvific element to this, and it really matters. Next sponsor is pre-born.

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Starting point is 00:32:19 Go to preborn.com slash alley. You call this form of forgiveness of just like, you know, forgive and forget. Like I have to have almost, it's almost like I have to have this emotional warmth toward this person in my heart. And that's supposed to be like how we define forgiveness, which it's not. Like you can actually not have bitterness in your heart toward a person and also be righteously angry about the send they committed the wrong that they did against you or against another person.

Starting point is 00:32:53 And that's why I think how you describe it, like this therapeutic forgiveness that's really more just about like how you feel. And it just reminds me of so many other forms of deception that have seeped into the church that really come from like the therapy world and come from this kind of self-centered, as you said, self-help world.

Starting point is 00:33:11 And we just don't realize it because it sounds so close to being Christian, but isn't defined biblically. And you've talked about, we've talked about before, how women are uniquely susceptible to these kind of therapeutic Christian-sounding lies within the church. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Why are we more susceptible to that kind of deception? Right.

Starting point is 00:33:34 And so that therapeutic model is actually from the book Counterfeit Forgiveness by T.C. Cannon, and I want to be careful, I don't take credit for that phrase because that's her phrase. But yeah, to your point, I do think there's so much in therapy culture that has influenced women to be more susceptible to certain types of deception. I'm careful to not say women are more deceivable in every way because men are certainly vulnerable to deception from different angles, of course, but specifically where I think women are vulnerable is, you know, if you just, it's really common sense. You look around and you see that women tend to be a little bit more empathetic. We tend to be more in tune with individual, the feelings of individual people, whereas men are more like they would swing out

Starting point is 00:34:19 and be more focused on a community. This is why we see when there's like some sort of a thing that happens in culture, like a pandemic or something like that, the women are focused on their children, on their home, getting that all together. And the men might be looking out a little bit more, like how do we protect our community? How do we get everybody together to do whatever we need to do? And this is wonderful. This is a strength for both people. But I do think that women are more deceivable when it comes to things that have to do with victimization and the being empathetic toward another person, victimhood, that sort of thing, because we so much more easily, I think, in many cases, are able to feel the feelings of other people. And we have to be really careful

Starting point is 00:35:04 that that empathy doesn't turn toxic, to quote a great book. But, you know, we have to be careful that we're not focusing so much on one individual thing that we can't swing out and see the broader picture. And so I think that, you know, there's a reason that the scripture warns against these false teachers that will worm their way into households and take captive, gullible women who are weighted down with all manner of sins. And I think it's not that women are gullible all the time, but I think that we are more easily manipulatable because we have to be able when we have a baby to understand, why is my baby crying? What's wrong with my baby? Is my baby hungry? Is my baby uncomfortable? Is my baby in pain? What's going on with my baby? And I think

Starting point is 00:35:50 there's a great strength there that women are going to be more likely to be able to pinpoint what's wrong because of that kind of intuitive, empathetic nature that we have. But if we aren't careful, we can start to let that go to a place where we abandon truth in favor of our feelings and trusting like a gut feeling. That discernment, I think this is one of the great lies, is that discernment is some kind of a gut feeling. The Bible never teaches that. The Bible teaches us to test all things. We are to take an objective standard of truth and test all things against our objective standard of truth, which is the revealed word of God. And sometimes our intuitions are going to be right, but sometimes they're wrong. And we have to be willing to say, all right, I have this red flag,

Starting point is 00:36:35 I have this intuition. Does this line up with reality? Does this line up with scripture? And then we have to be willing to abandon that belief if it's false. And I think, that can be more difficult for women who are that we tend to be more emotionally driven. And honestly, I mean, all the hormonal cycles we go through when we have our menstrual cycles and then perimenopause, my goodness, I remember when I was pregnant just having this overwhelming sense of doom that came over me and I realized that it was my hormones. It wasn't real. So I had to talk to my own self and say, you know, this isn't real what you're feeling. This is some misfires of whatever hormones are going on in your body right now.

Starting point is 00:37:16 But that's why I think it's so important, especially for women, that we learn to align ourselves with objective truth, not just go with what we're feeling inside. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And the comfort is also that we have been given a spirit of power and love and self-control. And then Romans 8 also tells us that we have been given a spirit, not. a fear to fall back into slavery, but one that gets to call out Abba father. And that, that Holy Spirit is not quenched by rising or falling progesterone. Like that Holy Spirit is not, is not limited by sleeplessness or any of the other symptoms that we might go through, pregnant, postpartum,

Starting point is 00:38:01 parameda pause, and all of those things. So even like the very real physical challenges of being a woman in all of these different stages that we go through hormonally, God knew that when he made us. God knew that when he chose you before the foundations of the world, Ephesians 1,5, and you were given that same Holy Spirit. Our bodies, our flesh, our hormones are not more powerful than the Holy Spirit. I think that's like, that's very comforting to me. And I think some people might see that as like belittling or dismissive of those things. It's not. I've been through all the postpartum in pregnancy hormones, it's such a comfort to me that I can tell myself that you could tell yourself during pregnancy, like, okay, that doesn't have to be my reality. That doesn't have,

Starting point is 00:38:47 I don't have to like wonder, okay, is my intuition like aligning with the universe? Like, is it some secret message that I'm trying to get and relay, am I supposed to do something? I don't have to have that anxiety. I actually think that is like super freeing. And again, that's not to pick on women, that's just reality. But the same good news is for us as it is for men that we don't have to be ruled by our flesh. Like, that's part of the great news of the gospel. Seven weeks coffee, they're not just a sponsor. I say this. And when I say this about my sponsors, it is really true. I am never going to exaggerate how much I love a product. I love seven weeks coffee. I love how great it tastes. I love that it's clean, pesticide-free, mold-free, sustainably sourced. They really

Starting point is 00:39:40 care about every little coffee bean and not just because they want to work excellently and they want to provide you with a great product, but because every coffee bean also represents the life of a little baby inside the womb that they are trying to save and support. The reason they're called seven weeks coffee is because at seven weeks gestation, that little baby is the size of a coffee bean. Yet even though he or she is so small, they are made in God's image and they matter. And that's why seven weeks donates 10% of the every sale to pregnancy. centers across the country, they've raised $2 million for these pregnancy centers, which is translated into so many resources, so much support for these moms, these dads, their babies to help them choose

Starting point is 00:40:21 life. When you use my code Alley, you get an extra 10% off your order, 7weeks Coffee.com code Alley. That is so good. And I, you know, I will tell you, as a perimenopausal woman, I will tell all of the younger ladies that are maybe in your childbearing years, you know, it is. it's hard in every season, and progesterone is a gift from God. It is wonderful. And, you know, absolutely do what you need to do to try to help your physical body to be in line with, you know, the most healthy you that you can be. But it really is, I totally agree with you, Allie. It is, if you practice now, even when you're younger, before your childbearing years, if you practice aligning your mind with what's real and what's true and learning not to ignore your feelings,

Starting point is 00:41:11 not discounting those things and definitely getting help where you can physically, whether that be with supplements or hormones, whatever you need, but also saying, you know, there's going to be harder phases than this, I'm sure, and there have been harder phases than this. But when we learn to align our minds with truth, that is such a good discipline to practice now. Because as you carry through all of the different seasons, you're going to need that. You're going to go back and rely on that all of the times you opened the Word of God and relied on what God said, that is going to pay off as you get older and kind of get into the perimenopausal phase. It's always something, right? We have all these seasons. But that's why, to your point, we don't have a different category for

Starting point is 00:41:58 us because we might have some different things going on physically. Like we are held, and that's really, I feel respected by that. Like, I feel like I'm not being treated like a child. I, you know, God says, look, I expect these things of you. It may be harder for some people than it is for others, but we all have the Holy Spirit to help us. And we have that eternal perspective of knowing that this life is but a vapor. And so we're looking to that eternal destination when God will wipe away all the tears from our eyes. And in the meantime, great news. He uses our suffering for our good and for his glory. So it's a win, win, win, all the way around. Amen. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to see you and Natasha at Share the Arrow's in just a few weeks. It's going to be

Starting point is 00:42:42 amazing. We've already talked about what y'all are going to discuss and y'all have been meeting. And gosh, it's going to be so good talking about deception and false teaching and how we can combat all of that. I can't wait to sit and take notes. Me too. I'm so, so, so excited. Yay. Well, thank you so much, Elisa. I'll see you soon. Yeah, sounds good. Talk to you later.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1398 | Heresy? Alisa Childers Addresses Her “Forgiveness” Controversy

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