Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep. 1412 | Pro Life Isn't Enough: The Critical Mistake Preventing the End of Abortion | Ginna Cross

Episode Date: October 23, 2026

Incrementalism? Or abolitionism? CEO of Alliance Family Services Ginna Cross sits down with Allie to explore the growing divide among pro-lifers on how to rid the world of abortion. Should equal protection for unborn children extend to legal consequences for not only the people who perform abortions, but also for the women who knowingly obtain them? What is the culpability of those who pressure others to pursue abortion, and what does true compassion toward both mother and child look like? This is an important and challenging conversation about the legal, moral, and theological questions at the heart of the pro-life movement. Do you have a question for Allie? Leave a voicemail at 844-755-5252 ana kate is available to download in the app store today: https://www.anakate.com/get-the-app The ana kate app is coming soon for Android users. Join the wait list here: https://www.anakate.com/android-waitlist Are you a doula, OB-GYN, midwife, or other women’s health-related practitioner? Join the ana kate practitioner network: https://www.anakate.com/practitioners Check out Ginna Cross’s Alliance Family Services: https://www.alliancefamilyservices.org/ – Time Codes 00:00 Intro1:05 What is Equal Protection?10:05 Withholding The Gospel17:27 What About Roe V. Wade?23:08 Pro-Lifers Against Abolishing Abortion?34:53 Women Are Becoming More Callus44:47 Advocating For Moms And Babies46:25 Political Wordgames; Take A Stance56:14 The Law Is Meant For Our Good – Today's Sponsors: PreBorn | For $28, you can sponsor an ultrasound and help save a baby’s life. To donate securely go to PREBORN.COM/ALLIE. Good Ranchers | Visit GoodRanchers.com/allie to get $50 off anything on the site. Patriot Mobile | Go to PatriotMobile.com/ALLIE. Use promo code ALLIE for your first month free. CrowdHealth | Join CrowdHealth to get started today for $99 a month for your first three months using code ALLIE at JOINCROWDHEALTH.com. Alliance Defending Freedom | Visit JoinADF.com/ALLIE or text ALLIE to 83848 to make TWICE the impact. Episodes You May Like: Want to End Abortion? Make Disciples | Guest: Roland Warren | Ep 728 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt0yncO9XWE Are Pro-Life Organizations Secretly Protecting Abortion? | Guest: Abby Johnson | Ep 1187 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVDHXiq1XBQ These Pastors Are Cowards on Abortion. Avoid Them | Guest: Seth Gruber | Ep 1051 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9qTdjvbFuU --- ► Buy Allie's book "Toxic Empathy: How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion": ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.toxicempathy.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► Buy Allie's book "You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love": https://alliebethstuckey.com/book ► Subscribe to the podcast: iTunes: https://apple.co/2UVssnP Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2FwkXxj ► Connect with Allie on social media: https://twitter.com/conservmillen https://www.instagram.com/alliebstuckey/ https://facebook.com/allieBlazeTV/ ► "Relatable" merchandise — use promo code ALLIE10 for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

So much of the pro-life movement and the pregnancy help movement has taken a staunch opposition to giving the unborn legal protection. What people are starting to say is, eventually, I eventually want equal protection. I eventually want abolition, but we're not there yet. Well, that means that you don't actually consider the child in the womb at the same level that you would consider a newborn or a toddler. The hearts of women have become so hardened. It's a terrible thing to live in a society where women feel like their children are just disposable. We have told women that they can do whatever they want and they are always a victim and that they are not morally culpable for the actions that they take. Christians are reinforcing this. With our actions, we're saying the preborn child is not as valuable

because we are not willing to take the same measures that we would if it was a born child with the same things happening. Jenna, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. You run a pro-life organization. Can you tell us a little bit about it? Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Alliance Family Services is a network of pregnancy clinics. My husband and I have the joy of being co-leaders of that, and our aim is to have a network of pregnancy clinics across the country. And we want to provide a true alternative to plan parenthood, big abortion. We want to have reproductive clinics that are God honoring and life affirming that provide pregnancy tests and ultrasound, certainly,

but also prenatal care to 20 weeks, well-woman exams, things that would be able to educate our nation about the value of life in the womb. And as you know, of course, and care about and are working to do things about as well, a lot of our hospital systems and obese are actually radically pro-abortion. And so we want to work towards having an alternative to that. So we work with just awesome people that are passionate about the Lord and want to see this atrocity of abortion come to an end. And so we do that one baby at a time in our clinics. And then we also seek to lend our voice to see that babies in the womb can get justice. And you are on the side of abortion abolition. Is that correct? And tell us what exactly that means. So that means that we would hold to

the reality that in order for babies to be protected, they need to be protected under the law. It's good for us to bring education and try to appeal to people to protect life, but the law is actually what informs consciences, informs society of what's good and not good. And so we would advocate for what we call equal protection laws, giving the child in the womb, that same protection that you and I enjoy that actually puts a terror in people that would want to hurt us, that they decide they shouldn't do that because they know that there could be consequences to that. We want that same protection for the preborn child. That means anyone who is seeking to end the life of a preborn child would also be informed by the law that they shouldn't do that.

I speak to a lot of pregnancy centers and it really is an honor. That's the main speaking engagement requests that I say yes to. I get to go to their fundraisers and their gala and just like see all of the amazing work that you guys do. Here are the testimonies. And one thing that I've noticed, there's a lot of things that I've observed, but among some pregnancy centers, there is an aversion to what you're talking about. Actually, I signed on to the statement for equal protection for babies for the simple reason that you outlined is that if he or she is just as much of a human as me, then why shouldn't he have just as much protection as I do legally? And I had a pregnancy center that I was booked to speak for, call me and say,

we just saw that you signed on to this. This is a problem. We need you. Basically, they were kind. They're kind Christian people, genuine, but they basically wanted to explain yourself. And I did. I did explain myself. And honestly, when I said what you said and what I just said, they understood. They were like, okay. But they did tell me, like, look, like there's going to be women who had abortions in the audience. And we just really want to be careful about the things you talk about. And honestly, I don't typically talk about the specific issue of equal protection in my speeches. It's really more compelling people to care and to speak up and to be involved and to donate and all of that.

But it did. It struck me as odd. It struck me as strange that these people who are ardent pro-lifers immediately felt like, okay, you need a talking to for signing on to the statement for equal protection. And I just wonder, as someone who runs pregnancy centers and who is in this world, is that a sentiment that you see a lot that really we should not be fighting for the equal protection of babies? Yes, unfortunately, it's a sentiment that I see a lot.

And it was a surprise to me. I mean, I definitely did not expect to be in a position where I'm at odds with a lot of people that I consider friends and allies and really admire a lot of the work that they do. But so much of the pro-life movement and the pregnancy help movement has taken a staunch opposition to the idea of giving the unborn legal protection. And it's because this idea has gone very far back that in pro-life laws and a lot of us just really weren't aware that this is what was happening. But in pro-life laws over decades, they would identify the pre-born as human and should have equal rights and should be subject to homicide laws.

And then immediately after that, there is an exception except for pregnant women, except for mothers. They would be totally exempt from this. So that idea that we shouldn't have any consequences for the mother, we should only have consequences for the abortionist goes fairly far back. And until these more recent years where self-induced abortions have become more and more common, we women don't have to go into the abortion clinic in the way that they used to. They can just order pills, do telehealth abortions, and they become the abortionist. that seem to make more logical sense. It's like, okay, yes, let's go after the abortion clinic. But now that we see that, okay, in most cases,

there isn't an outside abortionist. Now, in the majority of abortions, it is the mother who's doing this. It has become very confusing to see why we as pro-lifers who believe that abortion is murder, who understand what a heinous thing it is, and what a horrible thing it is for mothers who do it, how much grief, guilt they suffer, why we wouldn't want to give that child justice.

And it is a compassion that has gone too far. It's a compassion that is looking at the mom and the circumstances that she's in and saying, I don't want to add to those circumstances by putting a potential consequence. But the flip side to that, the reason why that's not actually compassion is if there was a penalty associated with her taking that action, the most likely outcome is she wouldn't do it in the first place. And that's what we want. The law is a deterrent.

So what is kind of thrown at us who support these things is that you just want to criminalize women. You just want to throw women in jail. These are some of the kind of emotional appeals that are lobbed at us. And that just isn't accurate at all. I don't want women to have abortions. I want those lives to be saved. I want them to become pregnant and realize abortion isn't even an option on my mind. and so that I can come into a pregnancy center and I can receive help. But yes, in the pregnancy

help movement, it is broadly seen as an idea that lacks compassion and that does have to change if we believe that that child in the womb is human life, then we need to recognize they should have that protection. And that's a good thing. That's a compassionate thing. Y'all know we have been using Good Ranchers for, gosh, over five years now. I am so great. grateful that we have been able to rely on a freezer full of all American meat from good ranchers for so many years. It just has given me peace of mind to know that at least one part of my meal every night is always accounted for. And they have just added so many great products over the years. It started with the better than organic chicken, which is still a staple in our home.

The ground beef, the steak, and that's all amazing. But I love that they have bacon that we use regularly. They have hot dogs. They've got the seed oil-free chicken nuggets. Do you know how hard it is to find seed oil-free chicken nuggets? Even the healthy brands typically have canola oil, sunflower oil. You don't have to worry about that with good ranchers because not only are they so passionate about serving and partnering with these American farmers and ranchers who are really the backbone of America in so many ways, but they also just want to make sure that you have high-quality stuff to feed your family. They know that you'll be more likely to do that important thing of gathering around your family at the dinner table and having those important moments if you can trust that what you're eating is high quality

and good. Go to good ranchers.com slash alley. Get $50 off anything on their site when you use my link. Goodrangers.com slash alley. Why do you think so many of those who are on the front lines against abortion who I believe are sincere and hating abortion, wanting to protect those. baby lives also wanting to love their moms which you do I want that as well why do they fall into what I would call toxic empathy what you have called basically like compassion run amok that's going exclusively only in one direction and kind of ignoring justice for the person on the other side of the equation what is like the thinking or the movement underneath that that has diluted a lot of well-meaning pro

life or is into saying no I just I can can't go that far in pursuing justice for this baby. I think it comes down to not understanding what scripture teaches about the law and the law being good. It's a desire to extend mercy without recognizing that mercy comes when we are repentant, that there is a justice that is tied with mercy that has to be there in order for mercy to be extended. And I think that, well, I just want to read a couple of scriptures if that's all right, because so many people I talk to think of the law as bad as a negative and consequences as a negative. And we need to recognize that it's not. It's good. And that it's actually biblical to want laws that are just and they're good. So 1st Timothy

1-8 says that now we know that the law is good. if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality,

enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted. And so it talks about, scripture talks about the law being good, and that it's in accordance with the gospel. So if we want to be able to bring the gospel into these situations,

there's this idea that we can just excuse sin and coddle it and that that will make people come to Christ. It really ties with the seeker-sensitive movement. If we make the moms come in feel okay and we don't quote-unquote shame them, then maybe they'll come to Christianity. But what we're doing in that is actually keeping the gospel from them. If we are treating them like a victim when actually they have moral agency,

then we're keeping them from actually what God means to restore them. And I think that that's a lot of what's happened in the pro-life movement. It's similar to what has happened in our churches is that we're not bold anymore in calling out sin. And we don't want to do that because we don't want to hurt people's feelings. And that seems like a lot of what's happening with this situation. We have a saying that we repeat a lot, and it comes from Dr. Seuss. Orton hears a who. A person is a person, no matter how small, pro-lifers have been saying for a very long time

as they march for a life that life starts at conception. And I see a lot of kind of dissonance when it comes to the conversation around, well, then what should be legal and what should be the punishment for murdering that life? And also when it comes to IVF, like you've got a lot of people who are against abortion, they'll repeat those mantras. But then when you push them to say, okay, well, those little lives are human lives in the lab too. And how we treat them matters, how we discard them, freeze them, abandon them, whatever, all of that matters too.

It feels like in the pro-life movement, really like it's very almost similar to how pro-choicers think of, well, abortion is only really bad at a certain time. If the baby looks more like a baby, feels more like a baby is at a certain age, most pro-lifers wouldn't say that. But when you get down to it, it does seem like that is kind of a prevalent mindset, the pro-choice mindset of, well, actually, it is some time after conception that they're really more valuable. And I don't know why, and I don't know when, but it's just some time. And I'm like, well, that's as fantastical as the pro-choicers who think that it should be viability or when the baby comes out of the womb or something like that. There's not a lot of daylight between those two positions,

right? That's right. And what we're seeing now to take that further is that people are also are starting to say, well, okay, maybe eventually. Because as this discussion about equal protection continues forward, now more and more people who've been opposing it are starting to realize, Christians are seeing the biblical basis for this, seeing the logical basis for this. And so what people are starting to say is, well, eventually. I eventually want equal protection. I eventually want abolition, but we're not there yet. The time is not now. And that speaks to exactly what you're saying. Well, that means that you don't actually consider the child in the womb at the same level that you would consider a newborn or a toddler. Because if thousands of toddlers were being

slaughtered every day by their mothers predominantly, you would not feel, well, let's take another 10 years and educate the culture before we try to legally stop it. No one would say that. No one would think that we would say this is a horrific thing that's happening. And we as Christians are the ones that need to say, no more this needs to end. But the idea that we're okay to kind of just, let's keep letting it play out. Let's keep trying the same strategies we've been utilizing over the last decades, even though we're seeing abortion numbers, only increase and hearts become even harder, you know, harder and harder and that's the reality. And Ecclesiastes talks about this, saying, you know, because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily,

hearts of man are fully set to do evil. And that's what we see. That's what we have told women that they can do this. Legally, they can do this with no consequence. And the result of telling that to women with our laws over decades is that the hearts of women have become so hardened. And it's a terrible thing. It's a terrible thing to live in a society where women feel like their children are just disposable. I mean, and we all see, have seen the horrific, you know, Lindsay Clancy case and realize, how can this be? Well, this is a society where we have told women that they can do whatever they want and they are always a victim. And, that they are not morally culpable for the actions that they take.

But Christians are reinforcing this by saying it's not that big of a deal. By with our actions, we're saying the pre-born child is not as valuable because we are not willing to take the same measures that we would if it was a born child with the same things happening. To play devil's advocate and represent what some people might be thinking. But Jenna, Roe v. Wade was overturned, not because of an abolitionist law, but because of a, I think it was 24-week ban on abortion in the state of Mississippi. And yeah, of course, that's not as early as really, I don't think any pro-lifer would say that they want when it comes to protecting babies inside the womb. But it was strategic. It was pragmatic.

It was incremental. And then legislators were able to pass that. It was able to make its way up our court system up to the Supreme Court. And it was that incremental law that then allowed for the Dobbs decision that overturned Roe v. Wade that then gave states the freedom to have more restrictive laws when it came to abortion. And even if they're not perfect and even if the abortion pill has allowed for the abortion numbers to go up in so many ways, did that not advance the cause of life? those incremental laws that then ended up allowing for a lot of change in pro-life states.

Sure. So I praise God for the overturn of Roe, certainly. And so I think that, you know, certainly a case can could be made for that. And I understand where people are coming from in that. What I would say in response is we could have also been putting forward bills of equal protection that could have advanced to the Supreme Court also and ended up overturning that. And would that have educated society in such a way that then the Supreme Court actually made a decision to recognize the preborn child in the womb rather than turning it back to the states to actually give the preborn child personhood that they should have had to actually just end abortion right there once and for all?

That could have been a different outcome had we been putting this forward over a longer period of time and just faithfully as Christians saying, no, we have to give the preborn child equal justice, not 24 weeks, not 12 weeks, not six weeks. We say to society what is actually right, no murder. No murder is right. And that's the law that we want. And because we have so many Christians in our nation, if we were all pushing for that, we would have those bills passed. That's the crazy part about all of this, is that pro-life advocates who are against equal protection will say, you can't get those bills passed. It's like, well, we are advancing them and we have had many opportunities and been very close. What has stopped them in those states has actually been

pro-life organizations coming in and telling conservative legislators not to pass it. So that's the really hard reality of why those bills haven't passed. And so you can't look at it and say, okay, but this was passed and this did this bit of good. But if we could, have had an equal protection bill, how many more lives would have been saved, you know, to this point. It's very, it's impossible to measure that. But what we can do going forward is say, we can and should require that red states pass equal protection. Because if in a red state, you could get a six-week ban, or you could get a 12-week, if you can get one of those, you could get an equal protection bill passed, if Christians pressured their

legislators to pass that and said that's the only thing we're going to pass. So there isn't this incremental step that we could take or at least, you know, I want to hear that argument for what state could you get a six-week ban, what red state that you couldn't get an equal protection bill if you actually just pressed for it. You can't get an incremental bill passed in Illinois or in California. You can't get a 12-week or a six-week. Nothing that moves the needle away from abortion is going to pass in those states anyway. So you might as well be. putting the Equal Protection Bill forward to educate your state and your legislators. If you're not going to get a bill passed, you might as well put one forward that's at least

going to educate. So that would be, you know, how I'd respond to that is those incremental steps are unnecessary. If we've got a red state, we can pass equal protection of Christians, and the pro-life movement gets on board with that. You know, a few years ago, it felt like we had defeated Marxism in America or the new iteration of socialism with some of the prominent politicians. But now as we are looking at this election season, we see that's clearly not true. We've got socialist candidates that are rising in popularity, which means we still have

a lot of work to do because the ideology of Marxism attacks the very foundation on which our freedoms are built. That's why I'm so thankful for those who are on the front lines of defending those constitutional freedoms, like alliance defending freedom. They are always pushing back against these dark ideology. by protecting our first amendment right to freedom of religion, to freedom of speech. They're protecting biological reality, the spaces of women and girls, and they are racking up wins for all of these things, not just here in America, but around the world.

It seems like they are constantly going to the Supreme Court, fighting on behalf of our freedoms, not only ours, but our children's and our grandchildren's. Stand for freedom with them today by giving them a gift. it'll be matched by a special grant while funds last. Go to join adf.com slash alley. Make your gift today. Join adf.com slash alley. And what about people who say, okay, well, the legislators just aren't going to do it.

And maybe they're wrong for not doing it, but they're not going to get on board. So if we only push for this, then we're not going to get any pro-life law. Like, let's take the state of Florida. It used to be 24 weeks. Now it's six weeks. Maybe the argument would have been. I don't actually know. This is just a hypothetical.

While legislators in the state of Florida actually would not have signed on to that, maybe Ron DeSantis would have. Maybe he wouldn't have said, you know, no, zero weeks, total abolition. The pro-lifers, the incrementalists in that state, are like, look, we got a huge win. Stop complaining about it.

And they see, I think both the abolitionists and the incrementalists see each other as trying to oppose the efforts of the other side. and they would say you are actually threatening. The abolitionist side is threatening our progress because we're trying to strategically get it lower and lower and lower. But when the abolitionist crazies come out there,

they're just making us all seem insane. And then nothing gets passed because of them. What do you say? Because I know you've probably heard those kinds of accusations. What would your response be? Yes. Well, it's very rare to see abolitionists actually opposing pro-life legislation. That's not something that I comment.

and Lacey, I certainly wouldn't oppose someone's efforts, good faith efforts to advance pro-life protections. In Florida, the example I think is an interesting one. But to me, it's just inaccurate that legislators wouldn't pass an equal protection bill. Legislators will pass what the people that support them tell them to pass. And so because the pro-life organizations have allowed them to pass lesser bills, that's what they're going to do. They're always going to take the path of least resistance. But they certainly would, these legislators are running on a pro-life platform. They say, they believe that the life in the womb is human. And so therefore, we should be saying, if you believe that, you need to give them equal protection. That's all we accept. That's being the prophetic voice

of truth for the unborn child, which is the most vulnerable person in our country that the Lord commands us to speak up for the one that can't speak up for themselves to rescue them so we should be putting that pressure applying that pressure heavily the major pro-life organizations that fund these legislators they should be saying this is all that we will accept and once they do then those legislators will pass it because we i mean we know this is true because many states have had many legislators ready to do it who have then been persuaded to change course because of pro-life organizations persuading them to change course. So it's not accurate to say that legislators wouldn't pass it. They certainly would. And so in Florida, it's, you know, that law was passed. That's good in some

ways. In other ways, it kind of lulls people to sleep, people that fought for that is hard to get a bill passed. You put a lot of effort in. So once you finally do, you know, it kind of feels like, great, we got the victory. Now we're going to sit back and in coast. We did that. We did it, you know, And that's it puts people into this feeling of victory when actually it's not a victory because the abortion numbers continue to rise in Florida. People just are rushing to do it faster, sooner, and they're getting, you know, ordering abortion pills and realizing that they can do that just as easily. So it's recognizing, okay, the reason why we are seeing abortion numbers continue to go up is because of the hardening that's happening. And the hardening of hearts that is happening is happening because we have educated women to believe that they can murder their children with no consequence.

Now, some of what you're saying, my audience has never heard before, and might be confused when you're saying that pro-life organizations are trying to stop the efforts of equal protection and abolitionist bills that would totally outlaw abortion. What are you talking about? Yes. So the first time I was exposed to this and really when I really see. started to look at these arguments was in 2022, the same year that Dobbs was overturned, there was a law of equal protection in Louisiana that had the votes to pass. It had the support

to pass. It passed out of committee, seven to two, overwhelming support of veto-proof majority. And it was exciting. I mean, I was just kind of becoming aware of equal protection. And so then to see, there is actually going to be a state that protects pre-born children. And what happened was right before it went for a vote in the legislature. Pro-life organizations, over 70 organizations sent, well, and the ERLC, and these major organizations sent a letter saying, this is not pro-life, and we never want this because there's consequences for women. This is not pro-life. Don't pass it. And so. Wait, the ERLC said to Louisiana, don't pass this. And people don't know. The Ethics and Religious Liberty Council, part of the Southern Baptist Convention or has been, used to be led by

Russell Moore, maybe it wasn't 2022. I don't know if it was. Used to be, not anymore. So they actually stepped in proactively. They could have just said nothing even if they didn't agree with it. But they stepped in and said no. They said this is not pro-life. And the reason was because this would punish a woman who knowingly and purposely paid someone to kill her child. Did they have any other justification for that, for this not being pro-life? No, the letter, which was on national right to life letterhead, all the national right-to-life organizations, I believe, or most of them signed it as well, basically just stated this is this is the known pro-life position. This is what we have always stood for, that there's never any consequence for the woman. And so this was really

the first that I was aware that I had totally different goals with the movement that I loved and still love and a part of. And so it was a big eye-opener to see, well, how can we all say that we're wanting to end abortion? Obviously, we're not because abortion is never going to be ended while giving mothers a total exemption. That's just never going to happen. We'll never stop abortion without that. And so that was when I became aware of abolitionists and this push for equal protection people saying, of course, we need to remove the exemption. Now, in equal protection bills, a mother is not named at all. So it's not targeting women or mothers or anything like that that you might hear. It simply says that it is illegal for anyone to murder a pre-born child.

And that is, it's very straightforward. So that actually allows if there's a predator that's pressuring or family members pressuring or husband, when something is legal for a woman to do, her husband can pressure her to do it with no consequence because it's legal for her to do it. Once it's illegal to do, then now you can actually go after the person that is, that is pressuring. So it's actually, you know, it's helping with those situations of coercion and things like that. So rather than making those situations worse, it's actually helping with that. So since that time, 2022, four years ago, we should have had the first equal protection bill.

And of course, it's always dominoes after that. So the first state that will pass it, others will follow suit once that first state goes. So it's tragic to me all the lives that have been lost since that time because of the pro-life organizations intervening. But since that time, that pattern has repeated itself over and over every single year, there's equal protection bills. Every single year, there's pro-life organizations, not just signing letters, but showing up to testify against equal protection legislation. I testified on the opposite side of an equal protection bill in South Dakota as another pregnancy center director last year. That was awful. I hate it. But will be, again, this next year, it sounds like there's going to be

equal protection bill in Texas. And I know there's some Texas pregnancy centers that are planning to testify against that. And so more and more we're seeing this. And that is, it's very disheartening. And we as Christians need to be, you know, pushing back against that and speaking against that. Because I'm, I don't think that every pregnancy center director needs to be advocating, you know, giving testimony for equal protection bills or anything like that. If people don't feel that that's that's their calling, not something that they want to step into, I am totally okay with that. what I'm not okay with is the people who are who are saying that they're fighting for the preborn but they're actually fighting against justice. They're actually showing up and opposing

justice for preborn children. That is the one that's really, really difficult and it's happening more and more. It feels like the tensions are really escalating, which is quite heartbreaking. Totally. And they're, you know, well, what you said, that national right to life, right, with the ERLC said this has been the position women should be exempt from punishment when it comes to the murder of their babies. They're not even coming at it from mainly a strategic standpoint. It's an ideological one. Like it's a belief system one that women are always the second victims of abortion no matter what, no matter how much she knows, no matter how much she chooses it no matter how much of her own volition she is making this choice to murder her baby somehow

she is always seen as the second as the second victim next sponsor is crowd health i have seen firsthand how the health insurance industry unfortunately is just such a hassle it can actually make you feel sicker than you are it can give you a headache because it's so expensive you've got these restrictive doctors networks you've got these high premiums and deductibles And it really doesn't feel like you're taking care of. So if it's time for you just to opt out of the health insurance world altogether, you should really consider crowd health. That's what we use as a family.

They really do put the care back in health care. They've got a community focused, a low-cost alternative. We've signed up and we've just experienced how empowering it is to have real advocates on your side. Crowd health is a community of people who have decided to stop letting profit-driven insurance companies call the shots. So instead of restrictive doctor networks, you get freedom. Personal care advocates who fight for you,

bill negotiators who slash what you owe prescription discounts, a database to help you find great affordable doctors if you need them. No one ever pays more than they're set maximum. Members crowd fund eligible bills with a 99.9% funding success rate, usually in only seven days. That's amazing. Together, crowd health members have already saved over $56 million. So be part of a community focus on.

advocating for your family's health. Join crowd health to get started today for $99 a month for your first three months using code alley at join crowdhealth.com. That's join crowdhealth.com code alley. Crowdhealth is not insurance. Opt out. Take your power back. This is how we win. Join crowdhealth.com code alley. It's interesting because at a lot of these pregnancy centers where I travel, I've heard these directors actually say, well, women are becoming in our experience, our day-to-day lives or our day-to-day experience with these women, more calloused and more resolute and more walking in, I just want the pregnancy confirmation to see how far along I am,

I am leaving and going to get an abortion. Whereas they felt before, like there was some softening, and they felt like it was more likely that they would be able to show that beating heart and that the woman would feel a softening and a love for her child. not that it's impossible now, but there is a hardness of heart that has increased. That to me dispels this myth, that women are just these, they just don't know, they're completely ignorant to it and they're accidentally falling into an abortion. That's just not the case.

I don't think it's ever been the case, but it certainly doesn't seem to be the case now. And I just wonder when these pro-lifers who do hold the value that all life matters are going to wake up to that, that justice, God's justice means no partiality toward the woman who has purposely taking the life of her child. That's right. Yes, I think that the second victim narrative has been become quite ingrained. And when you have really taken on that statement, well, women are second victims of abortion, of course, we immediately think, well, a victim is not responsible. And so our minds go to that immediately, but that is the problem with calling her a second victim, because in most cases, she still had agency. She may have been deceived by someone. She

pressured even to do something, but she still ultimately had the ability to say, I'm going to take this action, or I'm not going to take this action. And so we can have compassion for a woman in a tough circumstance that has had a bunch of voices in her ear telling her this is what she can do. And I think we should. We should have empathy for her. But we shouldn't take that so far that we say, well, because she was persuaded, therefore, she is a victim of that abortion instead of the person that actually decided, walked into the abortion clinic and put down the money and said, abort my child or ordered the pills and took it.

victim, assigning victimhood to someone is not actually a good thing. Certainly, you know, there are real victims and we want to help them. We have compassion for them and that circumstance. But once you have done that, you've taken away their dignity in a sense. They're choosing as a human being and you're preventing them from seeing what they did, which is actually choosing to murder their child. And I think that that is what is so dangerous about this notion is we are, we're basically putting, again, like I said, putting a stumbling block in front of women from repenting to not, to not recognize the egregiousness of what they've done, but we almost want to just build this bubble around them. And it's this weird feminist idea where women are so powerful and can do anything, but like they also are completely dumb and have no autonomy over their decisions. And both of those don't work. And so we need to be able to just say in these things that woman chose. And yes, she is in difficult circumstance.

But we wouldn't say the same thing of a mother with a born child in a tough situation. You know, partner leaves her. She's financially in a bad position. We wouldn't kind of be like, well, yeah, it's kind of understandable that she killed her newborn. We wouldn't do that. So we shouldn't do that with. And the law doesn't do that. The law doesn't do that, which is very helpful.

Yeah, exactly. But we do just fall into this mentality of, well, if I can't see the baby, if the baby isn't outside of the womb, then it's a whole different set of circumstances. And I'm like, well, welcome to be pro-choice, not welcome, but like, that's the pro-choice mentality too. You just call yourself, you just call yourself pro-life. I am curious if you think it's been the compromise of pro-lifers that has shifted the over-tim window to where it is, to where now, like we have such an abrasion lobby. And I have for years, but it seems especially over the past few years, all nine months, no parental consent for any reason whatsoever. Mental health, emotional health, physical health, whatever it is.

We have Democrats out there saying, I trust moms and their doctors, which is code for all nine months for any reason. Has it been Democrats or progressives pushing and pushing and pushing so that pro-lifers feel like, okay, well, I got to find somewhere in the middle? to try to like reel it back a little bit, or has it been that we have given up so much ground that that has actually allowed the left to shift the over 10 window even more. It's like, okay, well, 24 weeks. Okay, well, you know, viability, whatever. And then they're just going to keep, they're just going to keep going. I don't know.

It could be a chicken or the egg type thing. But I think you're right that it's not going in the right direction. We're moving more and more towards radicalism when it comes to abortion. We are, and I agree with you, that Christians have given up that ground, most definitely. We do not fight the way that the left fights. We are constantly on the defensive, trying to persuade them that we are not radical. And what that means is we seed biblical ground constantly, and we compromise. Whereas the left, they will just say their demonic agenda, and they'll say it boldly, and people will shriek at it for a while, but they just keep saying

it, keep saying it, keep pressing, and all of a sudden before you know it, the whole nation has gone that way. And it's been a small amount of the population that's done that. Christians, we don't do that, but we should. We need to hold the line. We need to look at what the word of God says, and we need to hold that line and not flinch and not compromise and not survey the Christian audience around us to see is this a palatable opinion? We actually need to just care about the opinion of the word of God. And we need to recognize that the word of God doesn't give us leeway to say, I'm an eventual abolitionist. Someday down the road, when culture's ready, then I will support abolition for pre-born children. We don't have the ability, the leeway, to do that. We are just supposed to speak up for the

vulnerable and to fight for justice. And if we did that, it would shift the Overton towards biblical truth. We still have enough Christians in this nation that we could do that and we could shift it dramatically. But it's going to require a lot of courage. It's going to require people in these pro-life organizations to stand up and say, no matter what it costs me, I'm going to stand for equal protection for the preborn. I'm going to work for these laws. I recognize that what we've been saying and doing has been in just. us and it's allowed children to be dehumanized and and I'm done with that I'm not going to do that anymore and that is happening there is an arising of people in the pregnancy help space that are

seeing this and are you speaking up using their voices but we need I mean we need board members to speak up we need you know we need volunteers we need donors to call their pregnancy centers and ask them no don't be don't be rude don't be like like hostile. Right. That's so important. Be gracious. Seek to understand.

Seek to have conversations. And that and those things will will build up. You know, there's a group of us that are working to start a coalition for workers in the pregnancy help space that are for equal protection. This is going to continue to be a conversation. And yes, I hate that it's contentious. A lot of people will say, you know, oh, this is, it's not good for unity. and yes, I want us to be unified, but I want us to be unified around justice for the preborn.

What we say that we believe that that abortion is murder, we need to be unified around that. And that is where we'll be able to find that unity again. So many companies today are happy to take your money while supporting causes that don't align with your Christian values, but there's really good news. You don't have to keep giving those companies your money. We have a choice about where our money goes. and when there's an alternative that's actually fighting for the values and freedoms we care about, why wouldn't you make the switch?

Especially when a company like Patriot Mobile makes it so easy. They offer higher priority nationwide 5G coverage with access to any of the three major U.S. networks. You get unlimited data plans, free international calling to more than 200 countries, 100% U.S.-based customer support. With Patriot Mobile, you don't have to choose between reliable coverage and your values. You get both. Their mission goes beyond wireless.

every year, Patriot Mobile contributes millions to organizations defending religious liberty, free speech, sanctity of life, and the Second Amendment while supporting our military, veterans, and first responders. All these companies are taking your dollars and sending them somewhere. You might as well partner with a company that is sending your dollars to really good places that are fighting for you. Go to patriotmobile.com slash alley. Make the switch today.

When you do and use my code, Alley, you will get your first month free. Patriotmobile.com slash Allie. code Alley. And with respect to that pregnancy center I was referring to earlier that, you know, initially called me and was like, oh, why did you sign on to the statement of equal protection? They did still have me. And they were very, they were super kind, super hospitable. But honestly, I think a lot of them, and I, you know, I look back and I was kind of, I was a little annoyed, you know, I was a little annoyed about it because it felt like I was being called into the principal's office for doing something that is very pro-life.

But, you know, I look back and I think the Lord, because I really did have the opportunity in that moment just to lay it out. And I think that that actually, like them hearing, certainly not me, but just what the word of God has to say about justice and unequal weights and measures. And like, if the logic of pro-life is this, then this. I think it actually, like, affected them. And then they had me come speak and everything. And so sometimes we just have to, even if, you know, on this side, we feel like, okay, it's so obvious.

Because once you see it, you can't unsee it. But before you see it, it's true. You can't. And so we also have to be, no, because you said 2022 is when you started thinking about it. It's just been in the past few years for me that I've really started thinking about it. I think the overturning of Roe made a lot of people start thinking about what are the possibilities here. Because for a long time, it didn't seem possible at all. What are the possibilities?

we have to be really gracious with the legislators, not compromising, but gracious. And also with other people, especially those who genuinely want to stand into abortion. There's a lot of people, I would say, even more toward the pro-choice camp, but in the Christian world, who call themselves pro-all-life.

And a lot of them are in circles that call themselves pro-life. But what they really mean is like, we don't want there to be any law necessarily banning abortion or we're not worried about that. What we're worried about is making sure that all these moms are taking care of and their needs are met. Let's make abortion unthinkable, not necessarily illegal. And they present this logical fallacy, which is a false choice. And I see this a lot that, okay, either you're loving the moms or you're advocating that there be justice for the baby.

And what you're representing, as you're running all of these pregnancy clinics and you're advocating for these laws, no, we have to do both. It's not one or the other. It should never be one or the other. It has to be both. So tell us what that looks like. For those of us who are pro-lifers, we don't run pregnancy clinics, but we feel that tension. We want to show mercy and love to these women and these families without being compromising when it comes to justice for the baby. Yeah, so how it would look in our clinics is very similar to likely what it would look like in many of the pregnancy clinics across the country. We want to reach that abortion-determined mom. We try to market in such a way that she comes to us first for care and services, and we're going to love her. We're going to appeal to her.

We're going to find out what's going on in her life. We're going to seek to share the gospel with her. We're going to let her know we have tons of resources available. We have caseworkers on our staff that We'll talk with them about practical needs that they have, doing everything that we can in that appointment to appeal to her to choose life. And so you're exactly right. We need to have both. We need to be seeking to give justice to the preborn while we are working to help these moms. But we do that as a church so well.

The network of pregnancy centers that we have in America is phenomenal, that we have this many believers that want to help these women and families and want to see lives saved from abortion is incredible. So we have the support and infrastructure that when we when we make abortion truly illegal because many states will say abortion is illegal, but nothing is illegal when there's no penalty for it. It's like, tell your child, you can't do this and they're like, what will happen? Absolutely nothing. Your child's like, that's not a rule actually. So we can't say that something is illegal when there's no consequence for it. So there's nowhere in this country that abortion is actually legal. When we make abortion illegal, we are ready. The church is ready. All of our clinics are ready to see these moms come

in who now abortion isn't even on their mind. Like the catchy line, we want to make abortion unthinkable. How do you make it unthinkable? You make it illegal. That's how you do it, because moms with newborns aren't coming in in desperate situations thinking about maybe they'll kill their newborn. They're not. It's unthinkable because it's illegal. And so once we make abortion illegal, then we are able to just pour out help and support on them. We already have that support structure in place. And as pregnancy centers, we're servants of the local church. That's why we exist.

We are really frontline mission fields that are there to reach people that maybe wouldn't go into a church. But the goal is to help them and get them into the life of the church, see their life transformed by the power of Christ and see, you know, their generations in their family change. That's what we want to do. And it's what we are privileged to do. Yeah. I've seen a positive change too in pro-lifers, some rhetoric from pro-life organizations and some pregnancy centers who will use terms like abolish abortion.

And I'm like, I don't know if that person's really an abolitionist. But, and maybe you feel differently, I'm like, okay, but the fact that people in the pro-life movement now feel a little bit of pressure to be able to say that. And to say that I, you know, no, I do believe in abolishing abortion, I do think that that means that the abolitionist movements and even just the logic behind it, which you really can't argue with, has advanced, which is a good thing. And, you know, I've seen a lot of these pregnancy centers. They have tried really hard to be conciliatory with the left with pro choicers or, you know, have tried to kind of like meet in the middle while still accomplishing their mission. They've realized they're still going to get attacked. They're still going to get slandered and libeled. They're still going to get fire bombed because it's never enough. And you would speak better to this than me. But like one thing I think that a lot of pregnancy centers and pro-lifers need to realize, you might not be in this because you wanted to be political. I get that. You might not be in this because you're a thick-skinned person.

You're just a super compassionate person who felt passionate about this. You have to get thicker skin and it is political. You don't have to be a politician. Not saying that, but you have to get thicker skin and it is political and you need to wake up to the political reality and that people are going to hate you because everyone who desires to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. And so I don't know, that would be like my advice and all that I see at pregnancy centers, but from your perspective, as someone who helps run these pregnancy centers, you're speaking to pregnancy center directors out there who are like, oh no, it's scary. Like, how did they become more courageous and bolder when it comes to this?

I think that it's just determining I will I will stand for this because this is this is right. Make that determination in your in your heart. There's kind of this and you mentioned it now. There's kind of now this move happening to start adopting the language of abolition, equal protection. People saying I'm for equal protection. I just don't want these laws and I don't want there to be consequences. Okay, well then you're not for equal protection because equal means equal. Equal means that those children have the same protections that I have, and one of the things I have is legal protection.

So in order for it to actually be equal protection, then pre-born children need to have that legal protection as well. So recognizing the word games that are occurring right now, and it's very similar to kind of the third-way type thing that happened in the church, it's like, well, I'm not left or right. I'm third way. You know, it's like, no, that doesn't actually work. You do actually need to take a stance on this. Are you for equal protection for the pre-born child or not? You can't say maybe someday down the road, actually, what you're saying then is that children right now don't deserve that equal justice and you're not willing to fight for it right now.

So I think that a great first step, I mean, when my husband and I became convicted about this position, the first thing we did was went to our board. And we had lots of people, you know, for equal protection say, your board's going to fire you. And we thought, well, that's very possible, but we still have to share what we've come to believe. And so we went to them and talked about equal protection. And it was amazing. Our board is awesome. And they looked at everything and said, yeah, we believe that this is right.

And we're going to take a stand. And so I think that a great first step is just to come to a decision point about this yourself. Study the word of God, study the arguments. And if you are, come to the position that this is right, then start talking to the people in your organization and in your sphere who you can also seek to persuade on this. And then just see what opportunities you get. I mean, we just never thought as an organization that we would be, you know, prominently the pregnancy help organization that's speaking for abolition.

It's just not ever what we thought we would be doing. but we're happy to do it as long as the Lord sees fit to call us into that space. So you just don't know what opportunities will present themselves as you just start taking steps of faith saying this is actually our fight. This is our sphere. Yes, who better? We are the ones that are saying we're going to fight against abortion. We're going to fight for life.

So who better to be speaking for justice for those very same babies that we're advocating for in the womb that we'd be advocating for? for them legally as well. We've got some really good news from preborn. They have been able, through the grace of God, and the persistence of the people who work at these preborn pregnancy clinics, save over 50,000 babies. And they have seen more than 5,100 commitments to Christ through their ministry.

How is that happening? This is a personal message from Dan Steiner, the president of preborn. He says, because of you, we can invite mothers considering abortion into a preborn network clinic to meet their baby. and when she has that close encounter of the best kind in her womb, so she sees that baby on the sonogram, she is 80% more likely to choose life. And every time you donate to preborn, whether it's $2, whether it covers the whole cost of that ultrasound session, $28, whether you can donate thousands of dollars.

And you can cover tons of those sonograms. You are helping. You are helping these women choose life. You are helping them have an encounter that could lead them to Christ, when someone shares the gospel with them, put your money where your heart is, invest in the lives of these babies and their moms and dads. Again, $28 covers the cost of a life-saving ultrasound. Go to preborn.com slash Alley to make your donation today. That's preborn.com slash alley. I know that you have some like bookmarks in your Bible that you have with you. Are there any more

scriptures like just as we wrap this up that you remind yourself of or that you like to remind to others of, especially when we're talking about this fight. Yeah, the other one that I didn't read, but it's actually Romans 13. And I think we forget that what the role of the state actually is. Romans 13 says that rulers are not a terror to good conduct but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good. And you will receive his approval.

For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid. he does not bear the sword in vain, for he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. And it's just, it's so important to remember that it's for our good, that the law exists to know what is right in God's sight and what is not. And ultimately, it's, it's the law that brings people to an understanding of our absolute sinfulness. I mean, coming to a point of brokenness and repentance is so painful. I've been in that position of just, I understand I am a wretched sinner and I have no hope. And what that realization does is

opens the avenue for our incredible, merciful God to come in and to take what is just broken and dark and horrible and make us new, turn us. us into a new creation in Christ, fill us with His Holy Spirit, forgive our sins, he takes our sins upon himself, and equips us to walk righteous lives, fruitful lives. It's the best news ever. And it's the law that actually enables us to understand our true position before him and the greatness of his mercy towards us. And so what I believe is grievous in the pro-life movement and in the church as a whole a lot of times is that we we downplay that. It's like we want almost to make people feel okay in their sin.

And I know that no Christian would say that that's what they're trying to do. But because of how we have just gone about trying, just wanting to be liked, I guess. The gospel is offensive. And so we want people to like us. And so we try to clean up the true message of the gospel, the reality of sin. And it's not good. And I have to remind myself of that that, no, I don't want to put any assembling block in front of this person. I want them to know their true state because I want the mercy of Christ to be able to come in and restore them. And that's the hope that we can embrace is Lord, like, bring us back to the truth of Scripture and help us to, help us to meet these women where they are and point them to Christ, and that is actually going

to mean making them fully aware of the grievousness of their sin. I like to remind myself, like, I'm not nicer than God. I'm not kinder than him. I'm not more merciful or more compassionate than him. and if he says something is wrong, if he says something is unjust, then it is. And not only is he the creator of justice, governments were his ideas, borders, laws, those were all his inventions, by the way, not only for his own theocratic people, but for the world in general, for order, for the flourishing of the Amago Day.

If he created all these things and if 1st John 4-8 says that he is love, never says that I'm love, that he is love, then, okay, the most loving thing I can do is agree with God. The most loving thing I can do is agree with him about justice, is agree with him about the value of life, and I cannot outmercy him. And once you just rest in, just like surrender to that. Just surrender to the fact that you can't out mercy and compassion God. And if all we have to do is agree with him, it actually just alleviates us of this burden of pragmatism and like, okay how do we be strategically holy like how do we be strategically in line with god rather than just saying you know what i give up i'm not i'm not going to try anymore i'm just going to surrender

to your to your will and your definitions it's actually like very freeing and that's what's very empowering it's like the whole if our god is for us you can be against us um so yeah that's my encouragement to myself honestly because i get scared about being controversial but it's my encouragement to everyone else too um jenna if people want to support you and support Alliance Family Services. How can they do that? You can find us at our website is alliancefamily services.org. Awesome. Jenna, thank you so much.

Thank you.