Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1413 | “Muslims Love Jesus:” Debunking the Right’s Strange New Myth

Starting point is 00:00:00 My argument is that both worldviews, the Muslim worldview and the Jewish worldview, or the view of Jesus are equally wrong. We understand that both groups when it comes to Christ are lost. This effort to me to try to say that we have more in common with the Muslims than we do with the Jews because of their view of Jesus, it just doesn't hold water. They're both wrong. Jesus is God and he died for our sins and rose again three days later. If you deny that, you are completely and equally completely wrong. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far.

Starting point is 00:00:45 All right, let's get into this controversial topic on today's maternity leave episode. And that is the forming possibly Christian Muslim alliance. Is it possible? Is it good? There are some influential voices, especially on the right, who have started emphasizing kind of shared aspects of Islamic and Christian faith. You'll remember we talked about this at the time. that Tucker Carlson and his news network posted this on X.

Starting point is 00:01:14 The people in charge, who is that? We're not totally sure, but don't want you to know this. But Muslims love Jesus, the network says, Islam reveres him as a major prophet and messenger of the Lord, believes he performed miracles, and states that he will return to Earth to defeat the Antichrist. So the emphasis there is actually on the, not only theological, but I would say foundation,

Starting point is 00:01:39 shared beliefs of Muslims and Jews. Now, I have also seen, and I didn't see this in the particular post from Tucker Carlson, but I've gotten messages that express this sentiment that it's actually Muslims and Christians who share all of this theology and not Christians and Jews. That's kind of the comparison being drawn here. Sometimes it's implicit. Sometimes it's explicit. I'll hear things like, well, Muslims regard Jesus as a prophet. They give him honor. But if you look at the Talmud, which is a collection of like thousands of years of rabbinic teachings, they say, or one of the passages in the Talmud says that Jesus is

Starting point is 00:02:22 burning an excrement. And so why would we not want to ally with these Muslims who clearly have a higher perspective of Jesus than the Jews do? And typically this is in the context of people talking about Israel and America's alliance with Israel and even criticizing evangelicals for their alliance with the Jewish people. You've got a Catholic writer E. Michael Jones. He writes this, the Muslim Catholic alliance is based on a sound foundation. We worship the same God and we have a common enemy. Okay. There is an influencer Dan Bilzerian. I think that's maybe how you pronounce his last name. He posted on Acts. It's time the left and the right, the Christians and the Muslims come together to defeat the Jewish supremacy that is plaguing the world. This is a very, very popular sentiment right now. And you see similar kinds of things from people like Andrew Tate, who of course converted to Islam not so long ago. go to spiritualize his objectification of women. Even some Muslim scholars have pushed this kind of alliance.

Starting point is 00:03:35 Ahmed al-Tayype is one of the most influential Sunni Muslim scholars in the world. And in 2019, he issued a statement on Christian Muslim cooperation called the document on human fraternity, which was signed jointly with Pope Francis. The document calls for Muslims and Christians to, quote, unite and work together to advance a culture of mutual respect and human fraternity. And as we will talk about in a little bit, that is something that has been carried on by the current Pope as well. So from my observation, this does seem to be an idea that is very prominent among Catholics. Not all Catholics, but those who seem to be promoting this idea who identify as Christian seem to be Catholic.

Starting point is 00:04:17 And so is this an alliance that should be forged? Is this something that is practical? Is it helpful? Is it theologically true? is it good? Is it biblical? So let's look at these and we're actually going to go back several years to see how this idea of an alliance between Christians and Muslims really started. And ironically, interestingly, it actually starts days after 9-11. So you'll remember September 11th, 2001. There were a growing number of political leaders, pastors, theologians, Muslims, scholars,

Starting point is 00:04:54 that called for greater cooperation between Christians and Muslims. Sharing a lot of the sentiments that you just heard. Look, we've got similar moral commitments. There is a lot of conservatism in Islam. Certainly they don't tolerate homosexuality, which is why it's such a strange thing that progressives tend to support these Islamic figures and Islamic countries. It really just goes back to, I believe, a hatred of God and hatred of Christ.

Starting point is 00:05:24 that's my belief and sometimes a hatred of Israel as well. But it is true that there is some conservative values that both Muslims and Christians hold. And then others have talked about, discussed the shared Abrahamic heritage, arguing that both religions trace their roots back to Abraham. And then you'll even hear people saying that we worship the same God. There are just some theological differences. After September 11th specifically, George W. Bush repeatedly emphasized that the U.S. was not at war with Islam. and that Muslims could be allies against terrorism.

Starting point is 00:05:57 On September 17th, 2001, at the Islamic Center of Washington, he said that Islam is peace, he says, and that the acts of terrorists violate the fundamental tenets of the Islamic faith. Now, this is something that we hear very pervasively today. While it goes all the way back, the president of the United States thought that it was really important, only days after 9-11, to make sure that. everyone knew that Islam is synonymous with peace. Barack Obama frequently emphasized Islam and

Starting point is 00:06:30 Christianity shared Abrahamic roots in morality. In his 2016 speech at the Islamic Society of Baltimore, he said, so often we focus on our outward differences and we forget how much we share. Christians, Jews, Muslims, were all under our faiths, descendants of Abraham. So mere tolerance of different religions is not enough. Our faiths summon us to embrace our common humanity. Now, of course, I believe in embracing a common humanity and that we are all made in God's image. All people are endowed with certain inalienable rights among them being life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness because every person, no matter their background, their nationality, the color of their skin, or their religion is made in God's image.

Starting point is 00:07:10 How I treat them, how the law treats them really matters. And so we agree on that, that we have a shared humanity. And because of that, I want to share the gospel with them as well. That's the most important thing. but we'll get into more of that in a second. Some prominent pastors have also pushed this idea. Anthony Campolo Jr., he was a Baptist pastor and spiritual advisor to President Bill Clinton in an interview.

Starting point is 00:07:32 He heavily implied that Muslims, staying Muslim, could be saved. There is so much goodness in the Islamic community. It can't be ignored. Those who ride off Islamic people are making a serious mistake. I don't think you have to compromise as a Christian, the belief that Jesus is the only Savior. But what I do think we have to say is that the grace of God extends way beyond the limitations of my religious group. Our Muslim brothers and sisters can say Islam is the only true faith, but we are not

Starting point is 00:07:57 convinced that only Muslims enjoy salvation. I contend that there is no salvation apart from Jesus, but I am not convinced that the grace of God does not go further than the Christian community. There's a lot of contradictions within there. There's a lot of universalism. I had a religious professor in college who essentially said the same thing, that God's love is too big not to extend beyond people who accept Christ. And I'm like, oh my gosh, God's love is so big.

Starting point is 00:08:21 that he sent his own son to die for us, that whoever believes in him, no matter your background, will not perish but have eternal life. But you have to believe in him. That's kind of the crux of Christianity. And if you didn't have to believe in him, then why would he send his own son to suffer death that he didn't have to die? Anyway, the current Pope, Pope Leo, has also signaled support for a Christian Muslim alliance, saying that the West should be, quote, less fearful of Islam, according to Tablet Magazine, and made a trip to sign the Golden Book in Algeria's great mosque. We can see that. We've got a voiceover of Pope Leo doing so. He's made a lot of comments like this, made a lot of comments about our commonality with Islam as Catholics, as professing Christians.

Starting point is 00:09:05 While talking to the rector at the mosque, he expressed gratitude for being in a place that represents the space proper to God. Okay. So he's in a mosque saying this. And then in October 2025, the Vatican opened a prayer room for visiting Muslim scholars in the Vatican Apostolic Library, the 15th century institution, often regarded as the intellectual heart of the Catholic Church and home to a vast collection of religious and cultural manuscripts from all around the world. So specifically, again, designated a prayer room for Muslim scholars at the Vatican. So I think even beyond the question of can this happen? Can it happen that professing Christians, that these Christian denominations in Islam have an alliance,

Starting point is 00:09:51 it is something that has already formed among many. Quick pause to tell you about our first sponsor, and that is Adele Natural Cosmetics. You guys know how much I love Adele. I use their products every day, both their cosmetic line and their skincare line is just top-notch. I use their essential cleansing, their essential moisturizing spray, which works for all kinds of things, by the way. It works for like body spray, room fragrance. And I love that it's not synthetic, that I don't have to worry about it messing with my

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Starting point is 00:10:46 faith in Christ, unapologetic about being pro-life. Their tagline, beauty comes from the heart is inspired by 1st Peter 3, 3 through 4. And I just love that they wear that as their brand and as their identity. Go to Adele Natural Cosmetics.com. Enter promo code Alley for 25% off your first time purchase. That's Adelnaturalcosmetics.com code Alley. I want to go back though. Okay, so we went back to 2001 and we kind of did a rushed history. There's so much that we could look at for how many voices have kind of pushed for this Islamic and Christian alliance, despite the terrorism and the persecution specifically against Christians by Muslim terrorists and in Muslim majority countries. But I want to go back even further. I want to go back in history. And I want to

Starting point is 00:11:38 look at Islamic conquest. And I want to examine whether Christians and Muslims throughout history have ever held a successful alliance. How has it been? when we've tried this in the past, have Christians and Muslims been able to live together peacefully with each group having the fullness of rights? So let's go back to the 7th and 8th centuries. Algiers was Christian for centuries. It produced important figures such as Augustine, one of the church fathers, both Catholics and Protestants, really appreciate and still cite Augustine. It was conquered by Islam in the 7th and 8th centuries as part of the Arab Islamic expansion in North Africa.

Starting point is 00:12:20 And then if we fast forward to the 1500s and onward, the Barbary Corsairs and Algiers functioned as state-sanctioned pirates who would raid European coasts and capture Christians to be ransomed or sold into slavery, it's estimated that the Barbary slave trade captured over a million European Christians. And these Muslims framed this enslavement as part of a jihad against Christians. Okay, this is recorded history. This is not just Ali's rendering of history. This is not just a Christian perspective on history. This is something that actually happened. also you should look into the Barbary slave trade, this idea that the transatlantic slave trade that America, that America participated in was the first example of slavery that only Christian

Starting point is 00:13:02 white people have been a part of slavery is just absolutely untrue. Every single group, every single race in the world has been enslaved or has been the enslaver, okay? Every single group. And so this idea, this modern idea that we have, that white people are always on the side of the oppressor and that black and brown people are always on the side of the oppressed, it is just a historical nonsense. Okay, Muslims dominated the slave trade for centuries and Christians, European Christians were the primary target. And then there was the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople going back a little bit in history, 1453, ended in the fall of Constantinople, transformed Christianity's most important cities into the capital, one of the most important cities

Starting point is 00:13:50 into the capital of an Islamic state. And then under the Islamic Ottoman Empire, Christians were persecuted, killed for centuries. One of the most egregious examples is the Armenian Genocide where the Ottoman Empire killed an estimated 600,000 to 1.2 million Armenian Christians from 1915 to 1916, so a lot more recent. And so whenever you hear about the Christian, crusades and conquest, like, just understand that this is in the context of centuries of persecution and rape and pillaging and conquest by Muslims toward Christians. Like, you'll remember I had Raymond Ibrahim on and he wrote a historical book about the sword and the scimitar. And he argues, and he grew up in, um, in Islamic country. And he argues that how we look at the conflict between

Starting point is 00:14:42 Muslims and Christians as, you know, Muslims being the victims is just a historical. It's just not actually true. While the era of the Ottoman expansion eventually faded, religiously motivated violence carried out in the name of Islam did not disappear throughout the modern period. Conflicts involving Muslim powers, Christian populations continued in various forms, such as contemporary jihadist movements like al-Qaeda and ISIS. Those are just two of many, many, many Islamic-inspired groups that commit acts of terrorism. So if we look at the acts of terrorism that are currently being perpetrated, the vast majority of them are being perpetrated by groups who identify as Muslim. Muslims are committing more terrorist attacks than any other group

Starting point is 00:15:30 by far. This is according to the Global Terrorism Index. According to recent Global Terrorism Index reports, Islamist extremist organizations remain responsible for the majority of terrorism That's worldwide, groups like ISIS, Boko Haram, Al-Qaeda, and their affiliates have consistently ranked among the world's deadliest terrorist organizations. Like when you see those awful pictures, those awful depictions of children and women in the Sudan, in Nigeria, crying and being terrorized by these men with guns, usually those are Christians. Sometimes they're also Muslims, but usually they are Christians, innocent people, being terrorized

Starting point is 00:16:09 by Islamic regimes in those nations, okay? There are not countries that exist today that have a Christian majority that are persecuting Muslims, okay? That's not something that's happening. That's not something that has existed for a long time. I mean, if by persecution, you mean that there were some Christians who were afraid of Muslims or that there was intense scrutiny of Islam after 9-11, that doesn't count. That's just people using their brains and exercising some critical thinking and wondering,

Starting point is 00:16:42 okay, what is a part of this ideology that is driving them to so much violence consistently worldwide? Why can their nation seem to never be able to get it together for the most part? So if we look at some of the biggest Islamic terror attacks, how has affected Christians, how it's affected all different kinds of people, we can go back to September 11th, 2001, Sunni Muslims crashed hijacked planes and flew them in. to the Twin Towers and the Pentagon, almost 3,000 Americans were killed. More than 6,000 were wounded. If we look at June 12th, 2014, ISIS militants massacred more than 1,700 Shia Iraqis while trying to establish an Islamic state. And then in 2014, Boko Haram, you probably remember this.

Starting point is 00:17:28 I was in college at the time, just absolutely disturbing Boko Haram militants abducted 276, mostly Christian school girls in Nigeria. Many girls of faith. forced conversion to Islam, marriage to Muslim fighters, or abuse, over 80 today remain missing or unaccounted for. Think about the conflict that has existed there, the terror, the horror, the abuse, the exploitation that has existed somewhere like Nigeria, nonstop for so many years. Just imagine that. And it is because of Islam. It's not because of Israel. It's not because of Christianity. It's not because of secularism, although I, of course, have major theological disagreements with every other worldview than Christianity, but we should call it like we see it.

Starting point is 00:18:17 This is because of Islam. Nigeria subsequently has faced more Islamic attacks from Fulani militants in 2023. Attackers killed an estimated 295 people on Christmas and wounded hundreds more. These attacks on Christian holy days have continued, as we've covered on the show with 30 Christians being killed on Palm Sunday just this year. And October 7th, 2023, of course, we remember Hamas slaughtered up to 1,200 innocent civilians and Israel wounding more than 3,400 and taking approximately 215 hostages among those hostages, babies, children. We've seen what those hostages have looked like, absolutely emaciated, obviously tortured and disturbed. We've seen videos of that day of women,

Starting point is 00:19:05 being raped, their genitals mutilated before they were slaughtered. Remember, they paraglided into this music festival. And so it's just stunning to me when people are like, oh, I have no idea why there would be any retaliation whatsoever. I mean, if that were us, if that were the United States that had been attacked, like that there would be no Gaza. Like, it wouldn't exist. And so for many countries, if they had been attacked that way, the enemy that carried out that attack would be completely annihilated in a matter of days. So we have seen a lot of just horrific persecution and horrific slaughter coming from these Islamic countries. Is it only Islamic countries that are committing these attacks? Are other countries also guilty of war crimes, guilty of inhumane actions?

Starting point is 00:20:00 absolutely. There are all different kinds of worldviews that justify all different kinds of cruelty. There are individuals who have claimed to be Christians who despite the theology of peace and joy and love that we have from Jesus himself have acted in a way that is cruel and evil and wicked and abusive and all of those things. But obviously, Islam as an ideology, just from the volume of victims that we have from their persecution, from their attacks, we've got to problem. We've got a problem with what Islam actually teaches and believes. I mean, this year alone, Islamist linked violence included a mass shooting at a bar in Austin, Texas, that left four dead, 15 wounded, an attack at Old Dominion University in Virginia that killed one person and injured two others,

Starting point is 00:20:46 and attempted ISIS-inspired bombing outside New York City, Mayor Mondani's residence. Okay, so this is not something that just happened 20 years ago and is over. This is not something that happens every now and then this is something that is happening on at least a monthly basis everywhere in the world. And here in America, multiple times a year. If you grew up going to church, then you probably remember making those shoeboxes for Operation Christmas Child. Now is that time of year again where you and now maybe your kids have the opportunity to fill a shoebox for a child around the world who has never gotten to experience this generosity,

Starting point is 00:21:29 the joy of Christmas. For us, it might seem small to send a child around the world, maybe in South America or Africa or somewhere in Asia, some socks, some colored pencils, a coloring book, a small toy. But to them, this is everything. This is a source of joy and gratitude for them all year long. I actually have a friend who is from Africa who said that she has seen these children in these countries actually open up these gifts and how much it means to them. them and how it is an entry way for the people at Samaritans purse who do Operation Christmas Child to get to share the gospel and the love of Christ with them. And it's so easy for us to be able to participate that and to teach our kids that we serve other people in this way. And all you

Starting point is 00:22:18 have to do, it's really easy. Just go to samaritanspurse.org slash OCC. And then you can learn how to pack a shoebox or build one online. National Collection Week is November 16th, 23rd, nearly 5,000 drop-off locations across the country exist. So it could be at your church, it could be at a local pregnancy center. There are lots of places that collect these boxes. Your church might even be a part of this already. So go to samaritansperse.org slash OCC. Find out how you can contribute, samaritansperse.org slash OCC. So what does it look like not just here but abroad? Is there a place where things are good because of Sharia law. While we have to look at Sharia law, conversion to Christianity is considered

Starting point is 00:23:09 apostasy under Sharia law punishable by death. Currently, over 10 Muslim majority countries have laws allowing the death penalty for apostasy under Sharia influenced codes. Contrary to the idea that Christians and Muslims can ally, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia, two countries with tens of millions of people have zero public Christian churches because of their adherence to Sharia law. There are Christians there. There are Christians that have. Afghanistan. We have talked to people who are in contact with Christians in Iran, Christian in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia all across the Middle East. And yet the public witness, the public worship of Christians in these places are basically non-existent because of the threat to their lives. Out of the top 10 worst Christian countries on the open doors watch list for Christian persecution, seven on the list are Muslim majority countries. Seven are on the list because of Islamic persecution. Culturally and politically, it just doesn't seem like it is possible for Muslims and Christians to ally. The only place this is possible, and there's two episodes that I'm thinking of

Starting point is 00:24:17 that, again, you got to go back and watch that give me this thought. One, Raymond, Ibrahim, my conversation with him, 100% go watch that. And then I also had a conversation with the head of a missionary organization that does a lot of work in Nigeria. And one thing that Raymond said is that there are two different kind of worlds in which Muslims occupy. There's Medina and Naka. And one is where Muslims are in the majority. And one is where Muslims are in the minority. And when Muslims are in the minority, their behavior is different.

Starting point is 00:24:53 It's much more tolerant. It's much more inclusive. It's much more Western. It's much more peaceful. But when Muslims are in the majority, they realize that their responsibility, is jihad. Their responsibility is to make as many Muslims as possible and to carry out what their theology tells them to carry out, which is the elimination of Christians and Jews. Domination is the goal of Islam. Now, Christians also want everyone to become Christian, but our call from Jesus is to go

Starting point is 00:25:23 and make disciples of all nations. It's not to kill the infidel. It's not to conquer nations, but to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. That is a very different tactic than what we see from Islam, who also wants everyone to become Muslim, but by any means possible. And so that's why we see these disparate outcomes when it comes to Christian-dominated countries and Muslim-dominated countries. Now, people will bring up Qatar. They'll bring up a variety of nations that actually have managed to be stable for the most part, where people are able to make money. But even in those, places, men and women don't have the same rights. You don't see the same rights or the same

Starting point is 00:26:10 exercise of religious faith between Christians and Jews and Muslims, for example. So yes, more peaceful, certainly than places like Afghanistan and they have adopted a level of secular tolerance in those countries that has made that possible and a level of capitalism that has made prosperity possible. But that doesn't take away from what the core of Islam is actually teaches and of course inspires. So let's look at the theology. Is it true that, okay, yeah, maybe you got some terrorism over there, but Christians and Jews, we basically believe the same things about Jesus. And therefore, that's what makes this partnership possible. As I said at the beginning, you'll see people say Muslims love Jesus. They revere him as a major prophet, unlike the Jews.

Starting point is 00:26:59 Let's look at the Quran and let's see what the Quran actually says about Jesus. So the Quran says, and for boasting, we killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah. But they neither killed nor crucified him. It was only made to appear so. Even those who argue for this crucifixion are in doubt. They have no knowledge whatsoever, only making assumptions. They certainly did not kill him. Rather, Allah raised him up to himself and Allah is almighty, all wise.

Starting point is 00:27:26 So one thing that Islam denies is that a God could die. So they deny the crucifixion because they believe that a. crucifixion or death at all is exclusive to a mortal. So they deny that God was fully, or that Jesus was fully man, fully God, that his humanity or his body could have died. And of course, they deny the resurrection, core tenets of Christianity. The Christian view, of course, is this. Paul rates this to the Corinthian Church. He says, for I deliver to you as a first importance, first importance, what I also received, that Christ died for our. sins in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day

Starting point is 00:28:08 in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Seifis, then to the 12th. Okay, that's 1st Corinthians 15, 3 through 5. That's a huge distinction. Because Jesus, it is not possible within Christian theology for Jesus to have been just a prophet. If he was a prophet, he wasn't a prophet from God because he was wrong. I mean, he predicted his own death. He predicted that he was going to be. be risen again, that he was going to rise again. And so he was really just a liar. And he was really just a bad guy. He was really just a trickster. Like he couldn't have been a good teacher. He couldn't have been a good guy. He couldn't have just been a rabbi. He couldn't have just

Starting point is 00:28:50 been a prophet because he said all of these things about himself, like I and the father are one. That I am the way, the truth in the life and that no one comes to the father except through me, John 14, 6. He said all of these. things that would have been considered blasphemous and a prophet of God would not have said. We know that because we have the prophets of God in the Old Testament. And they didn't say any of those things. They prophesied of the coming of Christ. And his life and death and resurrection fulfill those prophecies that we see throughout

Starting point is 00:29:19 the Old Testament like Isaiah 53. And so, no, these ideas are totally incompatible. Now, is it also true the Jews denied the divinity of Christ? Yes, they deny the divinity of Christ. They deny the resurrection, all of that. my argument is that both worldviews, the Muslim worldview and the Jewish worldview or the view of Jesus are equally wrong. It really doesn't matter to me where these two groups think Jesus ended up or what so-called honor they give to Jesus. Like you would understand from a Jewish

Starting point is 00:29:53 perspective who is not a Christian why they wouldn't love the idea that a Jewish guy claimed to be God. The way the Pharisees and the Sadducees also didn't. like that idea. But of course we read in 1 Corinthians 1,1, that Greeks seek wisdom, Jews seek signs, but I preach Christ crucified. And so we understand that both groups when it comes to Christ are lost. And so this effort to me to try to say that we have more in common with the Muslims than we do with the Jews because of their view of Jesus, it just doesn't hold water. They're both wrong. Jesus is God and he died for our sins and rose again three days later. If you deny that, you are completely and equally completely wrong. Islam teaches that anyone who believes in Jesus'

Starting point is 00:30:38 divinity and sonship will go to hell forever. Whoops. Whoops. Oops. The Quran says those who say Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary, have certainly fallen into disbelief. The Messiah himself said, O children of Israel worship Allah, my lord and your Lord, okay. Whoever associates others with the law and worship will surely be forbidden paradise by Allah. Their home will be the fire. and the wrongdoers will have no helpers. Oh, I don't think I have that much in common with that ideology. Similarly, Surrah 573 calls a disbelief to say Allah is a third of three. And so, of course, they don't believe in the triune God either. Christ's divinity, of course, according to the Christian view and sonship are the vehicles through which we are saved. In his letter to the Colossians,

Starting point is 00:31:25 Paul explains of Christ. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. for by him all things were made in heaven and on earth visible and invisible whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things were created through him and for him for in him all the fullness of god was pleased to dwell and through him to reconcile to himself all things whether on earth or in heaven making peace by the blood of his cross Islam teaches that jesus will return okay so that tucker carlson posted the beginning was partly correct that jesus will return fight for the cause of islam break the cross And then Allah will slaughter Christians and all who refuse Islam. Ooh, Tucker left that part out of his post. So the prophet said this. This is book 38 Hadith 431. There is no prophet between me and hand that is Jesus.

Starting point is 00:32:17 He will descend to the earth when you see him recognize him, a man of medium height, reddish fair. Okay, wearing two light yellow garments looking as if drops were falling down from his head. though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish Jazea. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. So that is who they believe Jesus is. Okay. So I don't see how it's so much better. First of all, the Talmud, I don't think even, I've heard Jewish people talk about the Talmud that it is not like the Jewish Bible. It's not like binding authoritative teaching. It is the lots of views from different rabbis over the centuries.

Starting point is 00:33:07 But I don't see a better view in the, in what Muslims believe versus what the Talmud teaches about Jesus. Like Muslims think that Jesus is coming back to kill Christians. Okay. Like they believe that he is coming back to slaughter us. And if we believe that he is the Messiah, then we're going to hell. I don't see how that is better. than what Jewish non-Christians believe about Jesus. How is that better?

Starting point is 00:33:34 Like, it's just not. According to the Quran, God never begets Jesus. Of course, John 316 tells us that he does. Surrah 112.3, he neither begets nor is born. John 316 forgot to love the world that he gave his only son. Some versions say only begotten son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. there are other huge theological differences. Islam denies the Trinity,

Starting point is 00:34:02 rejects the sonship of Christ, rejects the Trinity altogether. The Messiah Jesus, son of Mary was no more than a messenger of Allah, so believe in Allah and his messengers and do not say, Trinity, stop for your own good. Dr. Derek Thomas of Ligineer Ministries

Starting point is 00:34:20 illustrates that Muslims deny the Trinity, which denies a Christian interpretation of God, that one. I don't think that you can separate the doctrine of the Trinity from your definition of God. God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So God is, and let's take one of those, God is Christ. So the answer is, does Islam worship Christ as God? The answer is no, it does not.

Starting point is 00:34:46 So the answer is no, we don't worship the same God. Only if you can somehow argue that there is a generic God that everybody worships, and then is a Christian God, but that's a slippery slide to pluralism. But it's not an argument that makes any sense within the uniqueness of Christianity and the specific claim of Christianity that there is only one God. So the answer is no.

Starting point is 00:35:15 Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I hadn't seen that clip until recently, but when there was a debate about this on X, maybe a few years ago, there were statements being like, well, Jews, Muslims, and Christians all worship the same God. And I'm like, well, we worship the triune God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. They can't be separated. And so it's not true. We actually don't worship the same God. It's not explicitly stated in the Quran, but its earliest commentators believe that the Holy Spirit is Gabriel, a belief that's widely expected in Islam. So totally different view. Christianity teaches

Starting point is 00:35:49 that if we reject the father, the son, we're rejecting God himself, 1 John 2.23, no one who denies the son has the father, whoever confesses the son as the father also. In Islam, God does not relate to us as a father. And that is probably obvious from how Muslims talk about God and how they interact with God and how they talk about paradise. It says in the Quran, the Jews and the Christians each say, we are the children of Allah and his most beloved. Say, oh, prophet, why then does he punish you for your sins? No, you are only humans like others of his own making. He forgives whoever he wills and punishes whoever he wills. To Allah, alone belongs to the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and everything in between. And to him

Starting point is 00:36:28 is the final return. Now, you just, you see something that is so similar to a Christian passage that comes to mind in the Bible. He forgives whoever he wills. He punishes whoever he wills. That is basically from Romans 9. And to me, I'm just thinking of how Satan works. Satan typically doesn't give a whole lie. He gives part of the truth. If we look at the Garden of Eden, did God really say? He didn't say God doesn't exist to Eve. Eve knew that God existed. She had walked in the cool of the day with him, but instead he gave a little bit of a lie just to break down her trust and then to, you know, convince her to sin and the rest is history. But also we see that when Jesus is led into isolation and he's tempted, what does Satan use?

Starting point is 00:37:11 He uses the Bible. He quotes the word of God to the word of God in order to try to tempt him into worshiping Satan. And so I just see that so much here that it's, close, but it is different enough to be a complete and total lie that has led to so much destruction. That's how Satan works. The Christian view of Romans 815, for you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, Abba, Father. In Matthew 6.9, Jesus commands us to pray, our Father, who art in heaven hallowed, be thy name. I am so grateful for Jevity and having a very clear picture of my health before I got pregnant. I was able to look at all of these different

Starting point is 00:38:03 health markers, a hundred different health markers in my body to see what I needed more of. It really was so easy. They send a phlebotomist right to you, to your home, to your office. For us, it was the studio. Chief Here Later Bro and I got our blood drawn by a very sweet Fulbotomist. The vials were shipped off. They were tested. I got results in my app days later super quickly. And then also a doctor who looked over all of my health results left me a 30 minute video analysis on my profile that I was able to listen to. And if I had had more questions, I could reach out to them. They give recommendations. These doctors of different diet choices, exercise choices that are best for you based on your results, also different supplements that you need more of, less of. I was so thankful to have

Starting point is 00:38:51 answers to a lot of the questions that I had about why I'm feeling a certain way and how I can feel better. Unfortunately, we typically can't trust our doctor to give us this kind of comprehensive look. You really have to take health in your own hands. Javity makes that really easy. Go to gojavity.com slash Alley. Use code Alley for 20% off. That's G-O-G-E-V-I-T-I.com slash Allie. Is Allah the God of Abraham? It's a big question. This is something that you hear. We're all Abrahamic religions. And in a sense it's true because all claim lineage. Christians, Muslims through Abraham. But while Islam claims this lineage, it does not preserve Abraham's beliefs or God's covenant with Abraham. We can actually see the connection between the Jews and Abraham.

Starting point is 00:39:43 We can see the descendancy from Abraham. We can see the connection. We share half of the Bible. We don't look at the Bible the same way, Christians and Jews, but we share half the Bible with the Jewish people. Abraham was Jewish. Abraham was a part of Israel. And so you can see the connection. Abraham was the first Hebrew patriarch in the Old Testament. God made a covenant with him promising land to his descendants. Those descendants are Jews.

Starting point is 00:40:14 The Jews traced their lineage through his son, Isaac. In contrast, Islam's claim is that it restores the Abrahamic religion. Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, they claim, but he was a true Muslim, submit her to God and he was not one of the polytheists. Jews also were not polytheists. They would probably claim that we are polytheists because we believe in Father, Son, Holy Spirit. But that's in the Quran. Muslims trace their lineage through Ishmael. The son of Abraham's maid, Hagar. See what problems surrogacy creates, y'all. This, no wives, no problems. Abraham never should have done this. Sarah always should have

Starting point is 00:40:51 trusted God. But because they didn't trust God, they used Hagar to make sure that Abraham could have a child, have a son, they had Ishmael, lots and lots of problems since that. God has promised Abraham numerous descendants, but he sees no way. This will be possible. He is a child with Hagar, Genesis chapter 16. God's displeased with this. He says that Abraham's line will come through a son that he will have with Sarah specifically, and the son shall be named Isaac. God said, no, but Sarah, your wife shall bury you a son, and you shall call it his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him. As for Ishmael, I have heard you, but I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this time next year.

Starting point is 00:41:33 And then, of course, that is exactly what happened. And Isaac, I believe, means laughs or he laughs because Sarah laughs when she hears the news that she's going to be 99 years old and having a son. But with God, all things are possible. Islam's answer to this chronicling in Genesis, the way the Bible renders it, is that they try to change the narrative. They claim that the Bible was wrong, but this argument doesn't actually hold up when we look at the history of the Quran. The Quran, of course, comes long after the Bible, and the Bible is verified by external sources. So the Quran originated in the 7th century in Arabia through alleged revelations to Muhammad, many centuries after the events recorded in the Bible.

Starting point is 00:42:21 However, the context of Muhammad's life suggests that these revelations didn't emerge just out of nowhere. Muhammad first lived in Mecca where there were trade caravans and accounts show early awareness of biblical monotheism. And then later, Muhammad lived in Medina, where large Jewish tribes lived, increasing his exposure to the stories of the Hebrew scriptures. So, and this is another conversation that I had with Sharik. He's an ex-Muslim. He talks a lot about if you compare the Old Testament with the Quran and you really have

Starting point is 00:42:53 to study both of these really well, he believes that that is actually the best way to disprove the truth of Islam to a Muslim because he believes that Muhammad was inspired by the Old Testament and took bits and pieces of the Old Testament and creating the Quran. Makes sense. because of this background, many of the themes that are found in the Quran appear familiar to the old and the New Testament, but the Quran often presents these stories in ways that differ from biblical accounts. So remember, if we're talking seventh century, not only is it after Judaism, it is well after Christianity as well. And so he had heard the story of Jesus, he had heard

Starting point is 00:43:30 about the Messiah, he had heard about all of these different things. It would be a lot more impressive if he were writing these things before or outside of the establishment of these religions, but Christianity had been around a long time. Centuries at that point, Judaism had been around for millennia. So when we're talking about, oh, this passage sounds a lot like the Bible. That's not a coincidence. He had heard these biblical arguments before. Interestingly, if you look at the earliest generations of Muslim thinkers, they didn't immediately respond to the contradictions by claiming the Bible itself had been corrupted. That was later, as we talked about with Sharik. It was only after many contradictions between the Bible of the Old Testament,

Starting point is 00:44:10 and the Quran became apparent over the centuries that Islamic scholars turned to arguments that the Bible was corrupted as an attempt to fix these theological problems. So you have Muslim scholars like Mukatil Ibn Sulaman, I think that's how you pronounce it, in the 8th century, and bin Hazem 11th century, they argued more explicitly that the existing biblical manuscripts had been altered. I really encourage you. Muslim, Jew, Christian, go to the museum of the Bible and you can see how these manuscripts were translated and passed down so carefully. And really the only explanation is the

Starting point is 00:44:44 power of the Holy Spirit, because it's so incredible and so exact. This explanation of the Hebrew and Christian scriptures, however, of them being corrupted. It helped Muslim scholars in these early centuries resolve the contradictions between these texts and Muhammad's claims. But the claim runs into a big historical problem is that we possess extensive manuscript evidence of the Bible that predates Islam by centuries. These manuscripts show remarkable consistency over time. Again, go to the Museum of the Bible. The Dead Sea Scrolls, for example, date from 200 BC to 70 AD. They contain large portions of the Old Testament. So when compared to later manuscripts, they're remarkably consistent. Similarly, early fragments like the Rylid's

Starting point is 00:45:24 fragment, a P52, a fragment of the Gospel of John, date to around 125A.D. demonstrating the New Testament was already in circulation in a stable form very close to the time that it was written. By the fourth century, we have nearly complete biblical manuscripts, such as the Codex Sinaiticus, and Codex Vaticanus. Again, these manuscripts confirmed that the Bible that we have today is the same as the one that existed hundreds of years before, Islam. And Islam will claim that there differences in the renderings of Moses or Abraham or these stories. It's all because of some kind of corruption that went on. But the specifics there are very murky, considering, again, the Quran was inspired from these texts.

Starting point is 00:46:11 The timeline creates this really big problem for the Islamic claim of biblical corruption. Islam doesn't emerge until the 7th century. The argument that the Bible was altered appears even later, yet the manuscript evidence shows the Bible was already well established before either of these developments. It's clear that Islam matches the pattern of other fake religions. You'll see like Mormonism, for example, it's very similar in that it denies the Trinity. and then also you have a prophet who decided that, you know, the religion thus far had been corrupted.

Starting point is 00:46:41 And so they have a new revelation that not only is completely new, but actually redeems and restores what the truth always was meant to be. I'm not saying Islam and Mormonism are similar in every single regard. And certainly the fruit of these ideologies are not similar at all, but it is similar in its establishment and how it originally started. It tries to, co-opt Christianity, its truth, we make it as a new religion, claiming that it's going back to the true version of the faith. But like with Mormonism, man can't create a religious text on par with the actual Bible. The result is contradictions and inconsistencies, errors, and the only way to make it match up with the Bible is to claim that the Bible is full of error.

Starting point is 00:47:24 And you will remember maybe from my debate with Jacob Hansen is that they don't hold to the same version or view of biblical inerrancy as Christians do. And this is the key. between on one hand the Old Testament and the New Testament and on the other, the Quran, while the Old and New Testament's work in harmony with the new fulfilling the old, the Quran doesn't do that. Instead, it constantly contradicts and has to override the Old and New Testaments because it isn't God's actual revelation. It is following Muhammad's life and it is following him gaining power and all of his conflicts and all of the wars that he engaged in. And then his marriage to a six-year-old that was reportedly consummated when she was nine,

Starting point is 00:48:05 years old and the taking on of other wives. We've got some really good news from preborn. They have been able, through the grace of God, and the persistence of the people who work at these preborn pregnancy clinics, save over 50,000 babies. And they have seen more than 5,100 commitments to Christ through their ministry. How is that happening? This is a personal message from Dan Steiner, the president of preborn. He says, because of you, we can invite mothers considering abortion into a preborn network

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Starting point is 00:49:17 Again, $28 covers the cost of a life-saving ultrasound. Go to preborn.com to make your donation today. That's preborn.com slash alley. If Islamists believe that the Bible was corrupted, the argument that Christians and Muslims worship the same God, it just breaks down. Everything about God's motivation to have a relationship with man is there throughout the Bible, including before Isaac and Ishmael show up. The God of Muslims allows his scripture to be

Starting point is 00:49:47 corrupted. And their view, Allah made the crucifixion of Jesus to appear as an illusion when it didn't happen in reality, deceiving a huge portion of people to form a religion around it. Now, does that sound like a God that you trust? Does that sound like a God who really wants a relationship with mankind, the same one that we Christians worship? Also, there is a big difference, not only in what we are commanded to do, Christians are called to love. We are called to lay down our lives. Husbands are called to love their wives as Christ loved the church who gave himself up for her. So self-sacrificial form of love, wives are to submit to our husbands as to the Lord. But that love and respect, love and submission relationship is to be one that reflects this loving submission relationship between Christ and

Starting point is 00:50:32 his church, not one of abuse, not one where women are subjugated, not one where women and children have fewer rights. The radical part of Ephesians 5 for the Christian is that this was introduced in a time when women were not seen as full people. They weren't given full rights. So the radical point wouldn't have been, hey, wives submit to your husbands. It would have been in these ancient pagan world in the city of Ephesus. The radical part would have been, hey, husbands, you got to love your wives. Is Christ love the church? You got to lay yourself down for her. Just as she submits to you, you got to love her. Like you got to be willing to die for her.

Starting point is 00:51:10 So as a command to men on how to treat women because women were and are seen as so incredibly valuable. The Jesus in scripture, how he attends to women, how he touches the women who are seen is unclean, how he interacts with the women of the night who were caught in adultery and who committed all kinds of sins, interacted with him, related with them, and then called them to repentance and showed them love. that is completely foreign to the culture, the ideology, and the practice of Islam. And we are also promised in Christianity, we are promised a paradise that is paradise

Starting point is 00:51:46 because we have relationship with Christ, because we don't have to worry about sin. Our sin, other people sin, we just get to live forever worshipping him. If you look at the paradise that is promised in Islam, at least the paradise that is promised for men, you get 72 virgins that you get to do whatever you want with. You get all kinds of stuff that is given to you. I mean, it's literally your promise and eternal brothel in Islam. That is not at all the same as Christianity in which the marriage is between Christ and his church and is reflected on earth between one husband and one wife. The fruit, of course, of Christianity has been much different than the fruit of Islam.

Starting point is 00:52:31 Still today, we see Islam breeds violence. it breeds division, it breeds terrorism, not because of some aberration or some radical groups, but because of what Islam teaches in the Quran about killing the infidel and the purpose of jihad and the calling of domination. Doesn't mean that all people who profess to be Christians have been perfect or have been nonviolent, but our teaching is one of evangelism and truth and persistence and love and peace. And that is why Christians built the West in Western civilization. in all of its glory and all of its human rights,

Starting point is 00:53:07 and Islam hasn't been able to come close. Nabil Khrashi is a convert to Christianity from Islam. He saw the Christian God and the Muslim God as radically different. Saw three. The way Islam teaches God's character, his being, is very different from that of Christianity. Of course, the Christian God is triune. The Christian God is a father, an absolutely perfectly loving father.

Starting point is 00:53:33 The Christian God is willing to. enter into this world and suffer alongside his creation. The Christian God is willing to forgive us of all our sins by paying the penalty himself. In all of these ways, he is very different from the Muslim God. The Muslim God is transcendent, in a fact unknowable. Chapter 5 of the Quran says that he remains behind a veil as if it were, and it's not meet for him to enter into this world or to be made known. So the Christian God and the Muslim God have very different character. They do different things, and they offer different paths. That's so good.

Starting point is 00:54:10 And unfortunately, sadly, for us, Nabil Koreshi died of cancer several years ago. But his testimony and his work lives on. When he was talking, I thought of this verse, Ephesians 312, in whom, in Christ, we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him. So this holy perfect God, he's not far away from us, because through Christ, we have and adopted, and we are his children. Like, we get to enter not only his kingdom, but his presence with boldness and access with confidence.

Starting point is 00:54:43 We don't have to sacrifice ourselves to earn our way to heaven. We don't have to follow a list of rules in order to be good enough for him. Jesus' blood accomplishes all of that for us. That's the freedom that the gospel gives that no other religion gives. The Instagram account, Eternal Bread of Life, it's operated by a former Muslim, has posted several videos explaining that Muslims don't really understand their faith or God sought for. Muslims will always say it's not befitting of God to enter his creation and live among humans. When we literally see him do that all throughout the Old Testament, Genesis 3-8 says,

Starting point is 00:55:18 after Adam and Eve sinned, they heard the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day. In Genesis 18, it says, the Lord appeared to Abraham in the form of a man who spoke with him and ate a meal, showing that God can manifest visibly within creation without seizing to be God. Genesis 32 says that Jacob physically wrestled with a man all night. Afterward, he says, I have seen God face to face. So we all agree that God is way too good for us. So why would he come and be among us? Because God is not just our master.

Starting point is 00:55:47 He is our father. I think that from everything that I've heard from ex-Muslims, that is such a perfect way to share the gospel with Muslims. She knows much better than I do. But from everything that I've seen, going through the Old Testament and distinguishing the God of the Bible, from the God of Islam is the way to do it and is the way to create that entrance to sharing the gospel. And so God bless her and God bless Jarek and all of the people who have left Islam and are sharing the gospel with the Muslim world.

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Starting point is 00:57:43 Sevenweeks coffee.com code alley. Seven weeks coffee.com code alley. So the question remains, should we have an alliance between Christians and Muslims? Well, I don't really think it's possible. Practically and politically, I don't think it's possible because Islam is an ideology. It is a political organization and a political ideology that has a worldview and goals and tactics that are diametrically opposed to the Christian worldview and tactics and our goals and what we want to do. In the short term, is it possible for a Muslim family and a Christian family to join together in a lawsuit to sue a public school that is trying to force LGBTQ ideology? Yeah, I think that that is possible in the short.

Starting point is 00:58:38 term. Should we love our Muslim neighbors 100%? Should we assume that all Muslims are terrorists or are violent? No, of course we shouldn't. Should we be sharing the gospel? Should we be loving them and serving them? Yes, of course we should because our faith calls us to do that. And short term political, pragmatic alliances may be possible. But this big push by the Pope by world leaders to minimize our very real differences and to downplay the consequences. of Islamic ideology in the world, I'm just not down with that. I'm not down with it by itself. I'm also not down with like, oh, let's try to unite Christians and Muslims who basically believe the same thing to defeat so-called Jewish supremacy or to like gang up against the Jews.

Starting point is 00:59:26 That's, that's evil and demonic. Look, I'm going to follow the way the truth in the life. No one comes to the father except through Christ. That's what Christians are called to do. we are called to love our Jewish neighbors. We're called to love our Muslim neighbors in lots of ways, but also by telling them the truth of the gospel, I'm not getting on board with what I believe is truly a sciop. It's truly a sciop to try to make innocent Islam and to pretend like it doesn't have the ramifications that it does in the world

Starting point is 00:59:55 and that I need to load the identity of my Jewish savior, who came to conquer death and rise again three days later. I'm just not on board with that. I'm not on board with that. All right, I laid this out, and there's so much more that needs to be sad. I'm sure we'll talk about it again in the future. Let me know if you have questions. If you have thoughts, we'll be back here again soon.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1413 | “Muslims Love Jesus:” Debunking the Right’s Strange New Myth

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