Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 176 | Jeremy Vuolo

Episode Date: October 18, 2019

Jeremy Vuolo, seminary graduate student and currently appearing on TLC's "Counting On," joins me for a great discussion about what is missing in young Christianity. 

Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Friday. I am so excited about today's conversation that we're going to have. It's Jeremy Volo. You might know him. He is an own person in his own right. You might know him as Ginger, formerly Dugger's husband. He is, he used to be a pastor. He's now in seminary. And he has been on the show counting on, which of course is the continuation of the Dugger's original show. And he is just awesome. And I'm so excited for you to hear the conversation that we are going to have. So without further ado, here's Jeremy. Jeremy, thank you so much for joining me. Oh, it's my pleasure. So for those who don't know, tell us who you are and what you do. Yeah, so my name is Jeremy Volo. I am, what do I do? Well, I'm a Christian and currently I'm attending the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles,

California. We're Pastor John MacArthur at the seminary that he began with Grace Community Church. My wife, Ginger, formerly Ginger Dugger, and I were living in Texas for the last couple of years. I was there for about six years. She was there since we've been married since 2016. And we have a little daughter, 15-month-old Felicity, and just made the move out to the West Coast in June and are really enjoying exploring the city and kind of settling down here. And yeah, just beginning life together in a new place. Cool. I have so many questions about everything you just said.

My first question is, how did you meet Ginger formerly Dugger? Because probably everyone that is listening to this knows exactly who that is. And I bet they're very interested to hear the story. Yeah. So, well, it's an interesting story, actually. There's a bit of mystery to it. There's, so Ben Seawald, who's my brother-in-law, years ago, even before he, He met the family and was interested in Jessa, had a friend on Facebook who was, I think everybody

has one of these guys who's like an elusive character who your friends, you might chat here and there. And as Christians, they would like encourage each other with scripture and things, but didn't know each other. And this guy, his name was Matt, was the kind of guy who never had a profile picture of himself. It was always like a cross or something like that. Yeah. Everyone has like a few of those friends from college. They're always Christians too.

They've always got like the picture of like a cliff or a mountain or the cross on the side of a like a precipice or something. I totally know what you're talking about. Oh yeah. So Ben has this buddy for years on Facebook. And that guy actually was a friend of mine, attended the church. I went to in San Antonio, Texas. And so Ben and Jessa just happened to be in San Antonio with like three hours to kill. And so Ben contacts the guy and says, hey, we're just hanging out here.

We'd love to meet up. So long story short. they end up coming to my house. There was a church fellowship. It was a Sunday night and they were having it at my house. I at the time was preaching in Laredo. So I was coming back and showed up in my house maybe 9 o'clock at night. And there's Ben and I just started chatting with Ben. I didn't really watch the show. I'd seen the show, but I wasn't like terribly familiar. But I started talking to Ben. We just hit it off, exchanged digits and thought about keeping in touch. Here's a good brother in Christ who we can, you know, in encourage each other. And so we just kind of built a friendship. And then I ended up visiting Ben and Jessa when they were actually in Dallas. And the whole family was with them. And so then I got introduced to the family. And from there just became really good friends with more than just Ben and Jessa, but with others in the family as well. So that was the first time I met Ginger through meeting Benin Jessa. Oh my gosh. That's kind of a crazy story. It is. And I could go into like all the

details. What was wild was that friend, Matt, who kind of connected us, Ben, Jessa, and Ginger did not meet him and see what he looked like until after we were married. It was like six months later, we went to a wedding and he was there. That's so crazy.

So you two just kind of hit it off and started dating and then you dated for a few months before you got engaged and then got married, right? Yeah, so we knew each other about a year plus a few months before we started dating and then I honestly, I knew that she was she was the one.

Yeah. And apparently she knew as well. So once we started our relationship, it really didn't take, take long. Yeah. I can totally relate to that. Go ahead. What were you saying? Yeah.

I mean, no, the interesting thing was in the time before we were formally in a relationship, as her friend, I was able to see her walk through some very challenging times in her life and just seeing how she dealt with that. I mean, the true measure of a person really is when they're in difficulty in trial, which is why trials are necessary, why the Lord uses them. But just to see the stability and her love for the Lord and her groundedness before we were formally in a relationship was just stunning to me. So I knew the measure of this woman. So it didn't take long when we actually started our relationship. Yeah. And now y'all are parents. You said that your daughter, Felicity, is 15 months. So what has that been like? It's obviously a really big adjustment to get married,

but it's an even bigger and more sanctifying adjustment, I think, in my experience, to become a parent. So what are some of the things that you guys have learned over the past a year? Wow. Yeah. So, yeah, it's been, what, 15 months now. I think a lot of people, it's funny. And I know you've probably received the same. People tell you what you should expect. And then often reality is like nothing like that. Yeah. Felicity's just been a joy. And we gave her the right name because Felicity means supreme happiness. And the girl wakes up clapping and smiling.

Oh, that's so sweet. It's unbelievable. So, yeah, it's really just been sweet. It's brought us together, Ginger and myself. And we've just been enjoying this season. Obviously, initially a lot of less, a lot less sleep. Yeah. You have this little person that you're having to care for. But we just kind of assumed it. It just becomes

natural. You don't think, oh, now I have to take care of another person. It's just what you do. Yeah. So this is just our life now and we love it. I think that's what people underestimate when you're thinking about parenthood. Yes, it's true. You have no idea what you're doing, even if you read all the books. And you take all the advice from your parents and everyone else has kids. Yes, of course, it's hard. and there are those moments when you're like, oh my gosh, I don't know what to do in the situation. Who do I call? But for the most part, I always tell people who are pregnant, who are scared, who are nervous, that it really does come naturally, that God equips you, that you are made for this if you

are to become a parent, and that God gives you the strength to do it. And I'm thinking about all the times that I thought that I was tired before I had a child. I'm like, oh, I only got nine hours of sleep on it. I'm so tired. I didn't even know what it meant to be tired. and I get so much less sleep now, and yet you just do it. Like, you just do it. Somehow you have the energy and somehow you function on three hours of sleep

and you're still able to get that child on bed in the morning and love them. Even, you know, just as much, if not more than you did the day before, even though they've completely worn you out. It really is the most natural and wonderful thing in the world. Yeah, it's remarkable. I was nervous, Allie, about like, am I going to have the right reaction? am I going to be able to take care of her? And the paternal instincts just come out. Yeah. I mean, immediately, you're just protective and you care for and you just automatically do things.

I surprised myself with that. Yeah. But it was a nice surprise. And I think Ginger, too. So it's been a really sweet, wonderful season. So tell me about being a pastor. You're a pastor in Laredo, Texas. and now you have transitioned to L.A., right outside of L.A.? Yep. Yeah, it's in the L.A. area. Okay, at seminary, Master's in the valley. So tell me about that transition, kind of why you made that move and what you've been learning in the process. Yeah, so it was a very interesting timing for this move.

I was pastoring on the border of Mexico and Texas, which is a very unique place to pastor. If you're not from Laredo and you're an American, when you go there, you think, wow, this is Mexico. If you're Mexican and you come to Laredo, you think, wow, this is America. It's got this very interesting border town feel. 96.5% Hispanic, wonderful, wonderful culture, love the people, love the food, love being there. And everything in the ministry was going wonderfully well. I mean, we saw the conversion of gang leaders, which was just remarkable story to see. We saw different people coming to faith.

We saw young people. We saw older, more mature believers joining the church. We just planted a church. It's just celebrated a year of existence this summer in Nuevo Laredo across the border in Mexico, which is a very heavily cartel-populated spot. Um, we, one of the really interesting things was we, we were able to acquire a building, which was just this beautiful, phenomenal building in the heart of Laredo, um, almost practically gifted to us. Um, so it was exciting. Everything in Laredo was exciting. It wasn't like,

uh, ministry's a drag, you know. Yeah. And so God places on my heart, on Ginger's heart, a desire to come to L.A. to go to the master's seminary, and it was very peculiar timing. We kind of were scratching our heads going, wait, now? God would have us go at this season, when everything's going so well. But as we prayed, we took a lot of counsel. We prayed for many months. God just increasingly made it clear that he had me in Laredo for a season. I was there for four and a half years as a pastor. And my time there was done. He was moving me on. And so once that was clear, Ginger and I, after taking a lot of counsel and prayer, made the decision and moved out here. And it was, there was a lot of factors. The master's seminary, in my opinion,

is the preeminent evangelical reform seminary in, in the country. I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me on that, but I am biased. But over the last several years, we've just built a lot of friendships, relationships with the pastors, with the families. families here. And just from the theological commitments of the Master's Seminary, there's a robust commitment to the sufficiency of Scripture. And I think that's, if you talk about the issue today, whether it's politics, whether it's personal, whether it's life in the church, ecclesiastical, the issue is the sufficiency of scripture. And the Master's Seminary is unequivocally committed to the sufficiency of God's word. And so for me, there was really no other option

if I was going to pursue theological training. So when God opened that door, as one man said, you know, God opens doors at different times. And then sometimes God just jack kicks the door off the handles or off the hinges. And it's explicit walk through this door. And that's how it was for us. Yeah. You talk about the sufficiency of scripture and I completely agree with you. That is this central issue that we're dealing with today as Christians. So much of our arguing, while it might not be on the surface about the sufficiency of Scripture, whether it's about the definition of marriage or women's roles in the church, we might be arguing about those topics, but at the end of the day, it comes back to typically the majority

of the time, do you believe in the sufficiency in the inerrancy of Scripture, or do you believe that it's kind of this evolving document that, uh, is malleable depending on what the culture says. And so you're absolutely right. Unfortunately, I think that a lot of people, especially a lot of young people, it seems, people around our age, disagree with us on that. There was this Barna study. I think it was at the beginning of the year. Every two years, they do a study to kind of test evangelical Christians or ask them questions about sin, Jesus, salvation, and what they think the Bible says about these things. I don't know if you saw that study, but it was stunning just how, for lack of a better word, I don't mean to be rude,

but ignorant evangelical Christians are. People who claim to be evangelical Christians are about theology. It's really, really frightening. And I don't think that you have to go to seminary in order to be able to read the Bible and at least be able to see, okay, the things that a lot of young Christians believe just don't line up with scripture. How do you think we got there? and is there a way that we can kind of dig ourselves out of it without everyone, you know, necessarily going to master seminary if that's not what God calls them to do? Oh, yeah, absolutely. So I really believe the reason we're here is because of the failure of the churches.

So years ago, it's decades ago, when the church capitulated and basically said, okay, God's word isn't enough to bring people in. Right. So how are we going to appeal to the young people? How are we going to appeal to the masses and get our churches full? They abandoned the sufficiency of scripture at that point. Oh, sure. The sufficiency of scripture was still in their doctrinal statement. But there's a major difference between the doctrinal statement you sign and the orthopraxy. So the orthodoxy and the orthopraxy, there's a huge gap where people are, are, you sign. confessionally reformed or confessionally committed to the sufficiency of scripture, but then watch their worship service on a Sunday and the practice of the church. That's what I mean by orthopraxy. Watch what they do. And they betray the fact that they are not believing that scripture is enough. And what I mean is the Sunday services, the weekly disciplining, no longer revolves around

and is founded upon the Word of God. So the sermon becomes a chat. And the theologically robust singing, look, it doesn't have to just be hymns. It can be spiritual songs, Psalms, but we've thrown that out the window and said, let's just be emotive. Let's just emote. Let's just express how we feel with the removal of the truth content. And so we've watered down the content because, well,

Well, they can't handle it or they don't want it. And so what you have is now going on generations of people who were raised thinking, scripture is not enough to appeal to fill in the blank. Yeah. The simple fact of the matter is that's a false premise. It's untrue. Remarkably, you look at a Grace Community Church like Pastor John just celebrated, John MacArthur just celebrated 50 years of ministry at Great.

community church in the heart of arguably, or is it arguably, the most secular city in the world, Los Angeles. And week in and week out, all he does is open the Bible, walk verse by verse, and express it, explain it. He doesn't, he doesn't pull any punches. He doesn't skip a chapter because that's too controversial, just verse by verse. And to see the life here, to see the growth here, to see the young people here, to see what it's producing. It demonstrates that God's word is enough. God's word is relevant. It's timely. It's applicable. Our job is not to reinvent the message. Our job is to just present the message. And we failed to do that. And so the church at large has done a disservice to its people in the next generation by practically telling them it's not

enough just to read the word. We need to entertain and we need to have the psychotherapy and we need to have the worldly ideology. So is it a surprise now that even within the reformed community, we see the ideologies that are explicitly secular crossing over into the church? And we're saying, where did this come from? Well, it's been coming for decades. Because we've abandoned the sufficiency of scripture long ago. Inevitably, when you say or when you believe, whether it's explicit or implicit, that the Bible isn't enough. How that actually manifests itself is that the Bible isn't important at all.

It's not just that it's this complementary or supplementary part of your belief system or worldview. It becomes completely decentralized, pushed off to the side. You can kind of pick and choose isogetically when something is going to be relevant to your worldview that's being crafted by either the new age, which you kind of brought up, or social justice theology, which is really like liberation theology. And you can kind of fit some of Jesus's words into that, rather than the other way around fitting your political, social, cultural views, worldview into what scripture says or

submitting to what scripture says. So it's just not possible to have a biblical worldview in which the Bible becomes secondary to anything. You just can't. It's not possible. And I think that's what, unfortunately, a lot of young Christians don't understand that it's not just a matter of a difference of opinion when it comes to different topics that have to do with theology, but it's a matter of, okay, is the Bible the center of your worldview? Or are you putting it off to the back burner and only using it when it's convenient for you?

And we're all guilty of doing that. I think at some point, God gives us the grace and sanctifies us out of the temptation to do that, to resist that temptation. but I do see, I see so many young people doing that, and they're confused, and I think that their own, I know that their own souls are suffering because of that, because they're constantly trying to come up with different standards for right and wrong, not based in the Bible, and that's, they're elusive, and it's exhausting, I would think. Once you remove the authority of God's word, it's open game. I mean, who then becomes the authority?

Right. So I think at the root of a lot of this is the reality that Christians, many Christians say, believe there is truth in God's word, but they've failed to understand that God's word is truth. Yes, that's a great way to say it. So it is, it is the standard. It is truth. Jesus Christ said in John 1717, praying to the father of his disciples, father, sanctify

them or make them holy, purify them in your truth. And the next line, your word is truth. Right. So the word of God is not simply another truth claim that we can kind of filter through. And we as the final determiner get to say, okay, I accept that, but I reject this. A Christian worldview means that you are putting on the glasses of scripture through which they're the lens, through which you see everything else. Either you believe that or you don't.

And if you don't, well, then the authority is arbitrary. Who's the authority? Are you the authority? It's the media of the authority. It's your favorite political icon. The authority. Who are you going to establish as the preeminent authority in your life for morality, godliness for life?

Well, the Christian, the sufficiency of scripture demands that God and his word is the final arbiter. It is the lens through which we see everything else. And because we've abandoned that, that's why. we see so much confusion. Yeah. I mean, Ali, it's not very complicated. The issue of sin. God made us to worship him.

And in that relationship of worship, there is satisfaction, there's joy, there's peace, there's love. What we've done is rebelled against that purpose. So, yes, we could talk about all the manifestations of sin, but the root of it, it is we want to worship ourselves. So what Romans one is. Instead of worshipping the Creator, we worship the created. And so now we've got chaos.

So instead of honoring God, serving God, loving God, we are serving, honoring, loving ourselves and created things, the call is to come back to proper worship of our creator, which means at the very root of that, we say, well, why is this sin? Why is that sin? because God's our maker, which means he has every right to tell us how to live. And he's created us for the most profitable functioning of us, for our joy. Right. And so we've got to get back to the very basic message of Genesis through revelation, of the gospel,

of why God the Creator made us, what our purpose is, and how we can be restored to that purpose. And I think what you just said, unfortunately so often especially in young evangelical Christianity, is it presented as good news? That it's good news that you are no longer a slave to yourself. You're no longer a slave to your sin anymore, that you get to be forgiven. You get to repent from your sin. You get to live under the law of grace. You get to follow Jesus whose burden is light and yoke is easy. The ever-changing standards of the world, that is exhausting. And it is, uh, an act of mercy by God that he lets you get off that crazy train. I think often how we hear the gospel presented is, okay, God loves you. Oh, and, okay, so here's the bad. The bad news is you have

to stop doing what you want to do. The bad news is you have to kind of repent of your sin and like, yes, there's the deny yourself, all that stuff. Like that's kind of seen as the caveat to the good news. But that is the good news. The good news is that you get to lay the burden of your sin, the chains of your sin at the foot of the cross, it's taking care of for you. But unfortunately, I think the gospel is very often boiled down to God loves you, wants you to be happy and to do what you want to do. But that doesn't free. Totally. And so we've got to, honestly, we've just got to present the gospel how scripture presents the gospel. It's this all satisfying wellspring of life. How often did Jesus come to me and say, are you thirsty? Come to me and dream. Come to me and dream.

drink. That's a, that's a picture of satisfaction. Look, if you sit with anyone and tell them, hey, do you want to be deeply satisfied and happy regardless of any circumstance in life? Cancer, no cancer. Money, no money. Health, no health. Do you want to have a deep-seated joy that is unshakable, that isn't contingent upon the stuff you have or the place you live? Who's going to say no? I want my happiness. based upon my checking account. Yeah. Of course, people are saying, yes, that's what I've longed for. And then you ask them, but have you found that?

Oh, no, because you may have a good day today, a bad day tomorrow. So happy today, sad tomorrow. That's why the emotional experience of the human soul is this like roller coaster ride of highs and lows. If you pay attention to scripture, the picture painted of the Christian from beginning to end is a steadfast joy. I'll give you, and you know, we don't have the time now, but you want to see this for yourself. Go to the Book of Philippians.

Read 15 commentaries from different perspectives on Philippians. The book of Philippians is called the Letter of Joy. Paul's Joy-filled Apostle. It is the preeminent book about joy. Literally, I preached through it a couple of years ago, and every single section, in that book is tied to joy. Paul expressing why he has joy. Here's the interesting thing.

When Paul wrote it, he was an old man in prison. Chained. So this man in jail wrote the preeminent masterpiece, literary masterpiece on joy. And he's an old man in prison. Who, by the way, was single. which goes into the lies of unless you're sexually satisfied, you can't be happy. Right. And read what he says.

It's the expression of the psalmist in Psalm 73 who says, whom have I in heaven but you speaking to God? What on earth do I desire beside you? My heart, my flesh can fail, but God is the rock of my heart and my portion forever. What he's saying is, cancer, take my body. I've got God. And so I offer to people as a gospel preacher that if your joy is tied up in the things of this world, as quickly as those things gave you your joy, they can, and here's the spoiler alert, they will take it away. Right.

But the joy that comes from knowing the person of Jesus Christ, who is the same yesterday, today, and forever, is a joy that is steadfast, immovable, unshakable. it's a joy that surpasses understanding. That's from Philippians 4, where you say, I'm reading the diagnosis, and this is bad news. But I have a joy in my soul. It's inexplicable. You say, where does this come from? Because it's a supernatural joy given from Christ that's not contingent upon the circumstances of life. My goodness, that's appealing.

Yeah. I want to know that message and I want to spread that message. Yeah. I think that's exactly why. that reaches the point of why this message of, especially to young women, self-love and self-care are the things that are going to satisfy you. The reason why that doesn't work is for exactly what you just explained. If the problem is the self, the solution can't also be the self. There has to be something outside of us that's going to satisfy us. And yet we're told the reason

that we lack confidence, the reason that we lack satisfaction, the reason that we lack satisfaction, the reason that we lack contentment or joy is because of some kind of deficit inside ourselves. And if we just work hard enough to fill that deficit of confidence or whatever with positive self-talk or positive podcasts or self-help books or whatever it is, then we'll be fine. And there's unfortunately even a lot of Christians hearing that, that Jesus is just coming along for the ride on your journey to self-love and self-expression and self-fulfillment and self-confidence. and he's just there to tell you that you look good while you're doing it.

But you're exactly right. That is not only self-worship, which you talked about. It's also not the message of good news. Because if you are the problem, you can't also be the solution. It is good news that we get to deny ourselves. It's not bad news. Absolutely. And if we're honest with ourselves, we need to be rescued from ourselves.

Yeah. I'm in all the problems of my life, interpersonal issues, I'm the common denominator that is in the middle of all of them, where the disruption and the division. And it's, I look at my own heart and say, oh, I need to be rescued from my sinful heart. Christ offers us a good message of, I'll rescue you from the sin that enslaves you, like you just said. And it's the love of Christ that constrains us. Ali, what you just described and what you so insightfully have seen, which I think is what I've seen as well in the church, every false religion is built upon the premise of you can do this. Except the religion of Jesus Christ, where he enters this world and says,

you are hopelessly lost. You have no chance of doing this. Romans chapter 3, you have all turned aside. together you've become worthless. No one seeks after God. No one is just no one does good, but God. Right. Because of his great love.

Yeah. It's a message of Christ and his glory and his goodness. We've got to abandon this humanistic idea that we're self-sufficient. Exactly. Exactly. It's Ephesians too, which you kind of quoted there as well, that we were dead in our trespasses and sins of which we once walked. It's not that we were just bad people that have become good people. We're not just improved versions of ourselves.

We're actually new creations. We're made alive in Christ. If you were dead in your sin, that means that there was nothing that you could do to save yourself. And I think you'll have to tell me who said this, because I forget who the author of this quote was, but you contributed nothing to your salvation except for the sin that made it necessary. You might not have. It was either Whitfield or Edwards. The two of them were very good friends, but it was one of those two. Yes, which is true.

And that is freeing. That's freeing, but that's so not what you just said about the self being the common denominator and all of the problems, the interpersonal problems and all of that that we have in our lives. That is so not the mentality that is being preached today. The mentality that's being preached today is you have to every single bad thing that happens to you or every single person that treats you badly, you are a victim of that situation. It is never your fault. And you should never take responsibility for anything.

Everything that happens to you that is some kind of misdemeanor. fortune is a grave injustice that you need to find someone to fix for you because it's never your fault. And as soon as you think it's your fault, well, that's just toxic and you need to start feeling better about yourself. There are two chapters in the entire Bible that don't mention sin, Genesis 1 and 2. Yeah. From that point on, we are the culprits, morally responsible agents of rebellion. When you start discussing sin as mistakes or your circumstances, you're a victim. That's just not how scripture talks about it. Satan tempts, but he tempts you with what you really desire. The world allures you to what you

really desire. The issue is your sin. No one will ever be condemned, justly condemned before God because of what someone else has done. It's here, and here's the preeminent example. If you want to talk about being a victim of circumstance and you're not culpable because someone else, look at Jesus Christ. All he ever did, healed people, cured people, fed people, loved people, sat with people, compassionate, caring, loving, and he was slaughtered by people. And in that moment where he's being spit upon, where he's being beaten, where he's being mocked and stripped naked and flogged and hung on the cross, and nailed to the tree for the very people that are doing this to him, he's dying for them. What was his response? He didn't get to such a point where he said, you know what?

I've had enough. He says of the centurions, Father, forgive them. They know not what they do. So in the one who suffered the most of any human ever, what came out of his heart was forgiveness and love. So we're quick, though, to give an asterisk and say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but that's Jesus. I'm not Jesus. Fine. Let's leave Jesus there.

Let's go to his disciples. Let's go to Acts chapter 7. Stephen, just a normal guy. Acts chapter 6, literally, Stephen, serving widows food, cleaning tables, just a normal guy. Except for the fact, we're told, he was filled with the whole. Holy Spirit, meaning he's a Christian. So then Stephen gets called to the carpet. He opens his mouth and preaches the gospel.

The crowds gnash their teeth, rush him, throw him in the street, broad daylight, throw the man in the middle of the street, and brutally murder him. What's Stephen's response as he's being stoned? Father, do not hold this against them. the same exact response of Jesus Christ, just an average Joe, that's Christianity. It's a supernatural reality of the spirit of God living inside of you where you rise above the circumstance. And the issue of you, the issue of sin, your bitterness, your lack of forgiveness, your hatred, your racism, your bigotry, your selfishness, that problem of you is cured because the problem of you is cured. because there's the spirit of God dwelling in you.

And so we've got to get away from you've got the power to Christ has the power. It's His grace working in us. We have to go from self-centered to Christ-centered. And it's a radical shift, but subtly over decades. And it's almost like the frog in the boiling pot. We've moved away from that message. Why? well, it's offensive to tell someone they're a sinner. Someone the other day I was sharing the gospel

with a very good friend of mine and he said, Jeremy, why do you think your message is offensive? And I said, I'll tell you why it's offensive because the message is you're a condemned sinner who can't save yourself and you are absolutely hopeless and you need another to save you. People don't like to hear that because it cuts to the heart of human autonomy and pride. Yes, and that is one of the two biggest values that the secular world has. And unfortunately, some who claim the name of Christ too is autonomy and authenticity, that if you violate any of those two things, either of those two things, either you're telling me that I can't be myself, or you're telling me that I don't have full control or I shouldn't have full control over my life

or something that I do that's under my control is wrong. Then that's really the greatest secular sin that you can commit is telling someone that they've committed a sin or telling someone that they're wrong. But what you said is an encouragement and a conviction, not just for non-Christians, but for me, because so often I think I am tempted, especially in the political world, to judge non-Christians by the standards of Christianity. And I am unforgiving when it comes to things like abortion or something like that, which of course we should believe that it is a moral atrocity, but how much am I lacking in grace towards people who are not following Jesus Christ who see nothing wrong with that? We can say all day long, well, it's just common sense. It's just

common sense to not believe in abortion. It's just common sense to know that something's wrong, that is wrong, but it's actually not. It's not common sense. The only reason that we know anything is good is because we are made in the image of God and also because we are following Christ. And so I, I lack the grace to say, Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing the same way that Stephen did. And then we also, I also see a reflection on what you were saying of the crowds that are yelling at Stephen, who later yelled at Paul at the end of Acts when he started talking about spreading the message to the Gentiles and the people that were listening to him just went crazy over that. Same thing is happening today when it comes to the gospel in Christianity.

and I'm afraid that my own attitude is not one of forgiveness, but how could you? You people are crazy. So what you said also encouraged me in that as well. There needs to be a moral outrage, Allie, at the evils around us. And that's not ignored in Scripture because there's a passion for justice. But what's undergirding that outrage is a recognition of but for the grace of God, there go I. Right.

I was in the same place. I love it. I don't know where this came from, but it's been circulated. I'm just a beggar telling other beggars where they can find food. Yeah. And so, yes, there needs to be a moral outrage at murder and bigotry and hatred and all the other atrocities we see. There's an outrage. But that's this almost strange dichotry.

of the Christian where I'm outraged at sin and injustice and yet I would love nothing more than for the sinners to come to know the saving, rescuing redemption of Jesus Christ and be ushered into a relationship with him. Let's not forget. Paul was there when Stephen was stoned. Approving. Not in approving. And aside from Jesus Christ, there has, I believe, been no godly or man to walk the face of the earth in the Apostle Paul. And so what I love about Paul's message himself is in 2 Timothy chapter 2, verses 22 and following, he says, correct your opponents. Yep, they're opponents. This is war. Correct your opponents with gentleness. For God may grant them repentance. And they may come to their sense.

and come to an understanding of the truth. So you know that feeling. I know that feeling when you're in an argument and you actually win and the other side concedes. And then you immediately feel like a jerk because you go, oh, wow, I won, but I was really out of place. Yeah, it was super aggressive. Yeah. And they kind of walk away going, yeah, you're right.

We don't like that feeling. Why? Because it's like, I won the argument. We want to argue and debate in such a way where when the other side goes, you're right. we go, you see? And then we embrace them. Right. So it's that strange dichotomy of the Christian life. Yeah. Can you give a final word of encouragement to young people who there may be a group listening who, you know, they want to start taking their faith seriously. They want to

understand what we're talking about, but they just don't quite know where to go. And so that's one group. And then I would like for you to give another bit of encouragement to Christians who are walking with the Lord, but they feel discouraged by what's going on in the world. They don't know how to kind of contend with those who seems so fiercely opposed to what we believe in. Could you give a bit of encouragement to those two groups? Yeah, I'd love to. The first group, I would say, open the Word of God and read.

Understand that it's living, it's active. It's sharper than any two-edged sword. it cuts through soul and spirit. I was preaching last year, and one of the men who would go on to be converted, he was a leader of a gang in Laredo, and he was attending the service. And as I was preaching, he nudged his buddy who had been converted the year before and said, man, did you tell him about me? Because he felt like he was being exposed in front of everyone by this preacher.

Well, that's what the word of God does. It is truth. It exposes us. Open the word and love the word. word. Peter describes the Christian as like a newborn babe who longs for the pure spiritual milk of God's word. The word is relevant. It's applicable. It's timely. So enter that sweet communion with the Lord through the word and prayer. Pray. Talk to God. Open your heart. Pray about what you're reading. Pray about your questions. Talk to God. But secondly, I would very strongly encourage you to find a

biblical. And what I mean by biblical is a church that is committed to the sufficiency of scripture. They're going to give you God's word, regardless of whether it's accepted by the culture or not. If you need help finding that, I don't know, Ali, if you have contact information or some way where they could contact a little more personally, but if you go to nine marks.org, I believe it is, they have a wonderful search on their site where you can find local churches. are biblical churches. So I say find a biblical church, find a godly Christian and be intentional in that. For the second group, the Christian who's discouraged with what they see, I have two words for you, and we could talk for so long about this, but I'll give you two words, three words.

The Lamb wins. Christ wins. Amen. Read the book of Revelation. The story has been written. Christ wins. He will return in triumphal. full glory. We will exalt at his return. Don't forget that we are sojourners. We're passing through. We're members of the kingdom of God preeminently. You are first a Christian and the lamb wins. So engage the culture. Love your neighbors. Engage them. Have them over for dinner. not to just talk about the specific issues that you disagree on. That's what Ginger and I have loved to do with our various neighbors that we really knew well in Laredo. We had everyone.

You talk about the spectrum of politics, the spectrum of sexuality. They were all around us, and we have them over for dinner, and we just love them, talk to them, engage with them, share the gospel, the hope you have. That's our commission. But don't forget, the lamb wins. every wrong will be righted. What a comfort that is. Yes, it is. Thank you so much.

Can you tell everyone where they can find you or any resources that you want to direct them to? Yeah, so now that I'm not pasturing, I'm studying, I don't have the church website and that, but I think a great way to follow myself and follow my wife is on social media. So you can find me on Twitter at Jeremy underscore Volo, V-U-O-L-O, I think the same on Instagram, Facebook, and my wife at GingerVolo on all of those

outlets as well. And we like to have a mix of theological conversation, but also just kind of what we're doing in our life. But it's a good way to try to connect. Cool. And you guys, will you be at G3 as well? Yeah, so I'll be speaking at G3 again. I'm excited that you're speaking there.

Yeah, me too. I can't wait to connect with you and formally meet you. And, yeah, G3 is a fantastic time. So the G3 conference.com. Check that out. If you're able to go, it's a fun time. Awesome. Well, thank you so much.

Yeah, my pleasure.