Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 218 | Stop Calling Me Beautiful | Guest: Phylicia Masonheimer

Episode Date: February 28, 2020

Phylicia Masonheimer, author of the new book "Stop Calling Me Beautiful," gives us insight into why it’s vital for women to move beyond superficial social media theology and into the depths of the Word of God.

Hey guys, welcome to relatable. Happy Friday. I hope everyone has had a great week. We are talking to Felicia Masonheimer today. She is an author and a theologian and we land. Felicia and I land on, in different places on particular issues when it comes to a complementarianism a little bit. So gender rules within the church and she is an Armenian. I am a Calvinist and we are going to talk about some of that stuff today and some of the differences that we have. I encourage you to go back and listen to a few episodes that I've done in the past that will give you some insight into what I think. So pre-estination, I did a podcast called Tulip, Five Solas that kind of talks about my reformed camp of theology and what I believe on that. I also did an interview with Josh Bice

a few months ago that lands in a different place than Felicia does. And he is awesome and has a lot of great insight as well. But I just want to make sure that you kind of get both sides of some of the issues that we're going to be talking about today. And we're also going to talk about, though mostly Felicia and I, the things that we agree on. So this crazy world of trendy narcissism that women are so inundated in and why it is so important, why it is vital for us as women to be in the word. And Felicia is a wonderful encourager of women. And I'm so excited for you to hear this conversation. Without further ado, here is Felicia.

Felicia, thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, for those who don't follow you, can you tell everyone who you are and what you do? So I'm Felicia Masonheimer. I'm a blogger, an author, and a podcast host. And I mainly teach theology. So a lot of what I do is kind of in the role of a public theological.

And so we engage about theology in the public sphere, not so much in an academic sense, teaching how our theology applies to daily life, our understanding of scripture, our understanding of who God is, how that applies to the daily walk of your work, your motherhood, your relationships, all of it. So I do that both on my podcast, on my blog and in my books, and a lot of times on social media. So Instagram and Facebook are very popular where we engage about different cultural issues and Bible topics. Right. Okay. You just released a new book and I want to get into that. But before we do, I want to back up. And can you tell us a little bit just about your testimony, how you became a Christian and then how you became what you are now, this public theologian? Yeah. So I grew up in the church. I grew up in northern Michigan. So not in the Bible Belt, a little bit different than a lot of. Bible teachers. So in our area, you're either a Christian or you're not. You're not going to go to

church on Sunday unless it's, you know, worth skipping your snowmobile trip. So it's not as much a part of like the culture where it is. Like I grew up in Texas and a lot of people went to church whether or not they really believed it. It just made good, you know, even business sense just to be a part of church. So not like that where you're from. Right, right. Very different culture here. If you're going to make time to go to church, then you're most likely a dedicated Christian, not a lot of churches if you're not Catholic. So my parents are very intentional about disciplining us and teaching us. I was homeschooled. And that really gave me an advantage in a foundation. However, in my teens, I really struggled with sexual addiction and sin. And during that

time, struggling in secret, I began to ask very deep theological questions, but I didn't realize that's what they were. I was asking, you know, can I lose? my salvation. How many times do I sin before? God doesn't forgive me anymore. What is repentance? What is sin? And asking these questions forced me to dig down to what I really believed about God, what the Bible says about these issues, and laid the foundation for eventually when I went on to get a religion degree and started writing about these things. It gave me the desire to help other people answer those questions. I don't want to reveal anything that you might, you know, want to leave for your book or you want your readers to find out through your book. But because I know there

might be a lot of people listening who have the same struggles that you did when you were a teenager, can you give us a little bit of color of what that kind of addiction and struggle looked like when you were a teen and wrestling with these questions? Yes. And it's actually very common for women to struggle this way. I think we tend to, even today, even with all of the awareness that has has been brought to light about sexual sin and addiction in porn, we still treat it mainly as a man's problem. But 40% of women have said that they are either addicted to porn or regularly using porn. My addiction wasn't with porn. It was with erotica, which is simply the written form of porn. And a lot of, even Christian women are totally okay with consuming secular fiction

that has extremely sexual plot lines that really is soft pornography. And so that was my struggle. And through struggling with that, began to question, like I said earlier, question my salvation, question what it meant to be a Christian and what did it mean to overcome sin. Because that wasn't really being taught aside from what my parents were trying to teach me. And they weren't aware of my struggle. I was too ashamed to tell them. So all that to say, I think that.

that when someone's caught in this, there's a lot of condemnation, there's a lot of shame, and the way out is to come to the Lord with that and to godly community. But that's a process, and it takes a lot of time. Right. And how did you, you said that you went to major in religion, you got a degree in religion, how did you come to a place of repentance from that and walking into the light after being kind of hidden in shame for so long? something I often say and that we see in scripture is that victory is a lifestyle not a destination.

So if you think it's a destination, you think you're going to get to a point where you're never tempted again or you never fail again. And that's just not realistic. Any other sin, aside from sexual sin, we understand that we'll probably be tempted to gossip again, will probably be tempted to anger again. And we have a choice in that moment to follow the Holy Spirit's leading into sanctification or to reject that and change. choose sin. And so the idea of victory that's throughout all of scripture is not that you're never tempted again or that you never are prone to that weakness, but that you're more likely to repent. If you fail, you're more likely to choose Christ instead of the sin. And so as I was growing in my faith and going deeper with the Lord, I was more likely to choose him over the sin, more likely to repent faster, more likely to get back into the word instead of spending days away from him and dwelling

in the shame. A lot of people know the verse taking our thoughts captive and surrendering them to Christ, but a lot of people just don't know what that looks like practically. Can you shed some light on that for people who are like, I really want to do that. You know, I want to walk in victory. I want to surrender my thoughts to Christ, read my Bible, pray. But these thoughts just, it just kind of feels like a battle for a lot of people. Do you have any encouragement or insight for them? Yeah. And the first thing I have to say is kind of the hard word. Then we'll get to the more enjoyable part. The hard word is what are you putting in your mind? What have you settled for as far as entertainment and media? If you're okay with consuming what the world and even other Christians say

is normal, when it clearly is a stumbling block for you, then you will continue to start. struggle with your thoughts and you will most likely fail. For seven years, I didn't go to the movie theater. I didn't really watch any TV shows or movies. I couldn't. I couldn't risk it. There was stuff in there that I could not watch. I didn't read fiction for 10 years because the risk of running across a sex scene was too much for me. That's a sacrifice I had to make. I had to set very firm boundaries in my dating relationships because of my susceptibility. So whatever the area of sin is, you have to be willing to set up the boundary that may make you abnormal to other people in order to pursue holiness. But the good news is, yeah, the good news is that as you're not, you're not doing

that to earn God's grace or favor, his grace makes up the difference. And he comes through that as you're obeying and setting those standards, he supports that step of faith. And he supports that step of faith and sanctifies you through that and supports you and strengthens you in the process. Right. I think a lot of people don't want to, one of the reasons why they don't want to give up Netflix or whatever it is or watching The Bachelorette is not just because it's difficult. Of course it's difficult because all of our friends are doing it, but also in giving up those things, it's admitting that we have that problem. And that I think is really difficult for us. If we can just kind of pretend, oh, no, no, no, we're fine, reading this stuff, watching this stuff.

It's not a big deal. Then we can kind of convince ourselves and convince other people, well, that we don't really have this struggle because I think the big thing is that we don't want to admit. It's embarrassing. We don't want to admit that this is like a sin that we really have, don't you think? Oh, yeah. It's very shameful, particularly sexual sin. I think there is clearly, based on what we see in the culture and all through history, there's a very specific attack on sexuality because it's so intimate, because it represents covenant. And when you're struggling with sexual sin, I think there's a lot more shame with that than with other sins. Not that it's a greater sin than others, but it brings with it a greater weight of shame because it has a great weight

in the eyes of God. But the beautiful thing is, First John 1-19, if you confess your sins, He is faithful and just to forgive your sins and cleanse you of all in righteousness. And I often look at the verse where Peter asks Jesus, how often do we have to forgive, you know, the guy who's offended me? And Jesus says 70 times seven. So if we have to forgive 70 times seven, how many times do you think God genuinely forgives when we repent? And that's our hope.

Right. And Paul even says that sexual sin is different than other sins because you're sinning against your own body. And the Bible also talks about how we're bought with a price that we are, the Holy Spirit is dwelling within us. And so the sins that we commit with our body, like you said, they don't necessarily carry a different kind of eternal punishment or anything like that. But they do have different consequences because it's not just bodily, it's also emotional, it's also spiritual. if you think about how wonderful and beautiful and pleasurable sex is in the right context, well, taking it out of the proper context and the wrong context brings it to the other extreme,

which is the opposite of beautiful and wonderful and productive and good, and it is destructive, it is damaging, it is hollow, it is harmful. And I think that's part of why it can be so shameful. because we know the impact of the significance of sex and therefore of sexual sin. Okay. Do you want to talk about your book a little bit, what the premise says, what it was like even just writing the book and what you want people to get out of it? Sure.

Yeah. So the book is called Stop Calling Me Beautiful, Finding Soul Deep Strength in a Skin Deep World. I love it. And it kind of echoes a little bit. It's like I was telling somebody recently, your book is coming out. And a lot of people who ordered my book are also ordering your book, which is so fun and exciting to me. On Amazon, it actually said when I scrolled down, I mean, obviously my book's not out yet. It's out in May, but it says like, order this, you're not enough.

Plus, stop calling me beautiful. I'm like, oh, that's so perfect. I loved it. I was so glad to just see people pre-ordering both. Yes. And I'm so excited for your book to come out. So mine is kind of a big picture view of why women need to go deeper in their faith than the surface level theology, the surface level Christianity that doesn't lead to any kind of victory,

but is what's taught in a lot of women's ministry events and books and materials. Yeah. Can you give us some examples of the kind of superficial stuff that women tend to hear? Well, one of them you've addressed before. it's the you're worthy message. You're worthy just the way you are. And it sounds good because we do see worthiness in scripture. But when you start at the ending point and you leave out everything that had to happen for that worthiness to be imputed, you're cheapening the grace of God. And you're actually making disciples who don't even know where their worthiness came from. So they don't even appreciate

what Jesus did. And they're not going to be as invested. They don't know. as Bonhofer wrote, the cost of discipleship. And so that's one of the watered down messages. You've got questions about saying you're the beautiful daughter of God, which is the message of the book itself. When you say you're a beautiful daughter of God, yes, it's true. Thank you, dear. But you need to look at where that beauty comes from. Right.

This is my daughter, by the way. Oh, it's fine. I apologize for the interruption. No, it's okay. So, hey, we're in an interview. So if you're only talking about the beauty of the gospel in a halfway format, you're not talking about where that beauty came from, how it was imputed. You're just saying you're a beautiful daughter of the king. You have no power behind that.

It doesn't change your life. And so you have to have the full gospel to have a victorious Christian life. Right. And it's kind of like what you were talking about in your, in your teenage struggle and the things that you needed to hear and the hard truths that you needed to hear, there could have been people that came along and just said, hey, Felicia, you're worthy and you're great and you're beautiful and you're enough as you are. And maybe that would have made you feel a little bit better in those low times of feeling ashamed.

But ultimately, that's not what led you. I'm guessing that's not what led you to repentance. It was the deep power of the gospel, the realization that you're a sinner, but God's love and his grace and his mercy and his death and his sacrifice is bigger than your shame and your sin and your and your struggle, right? Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is, when you're struggling with sexual sin, people can tell you you're worthy all day long, but you know the truth. You, you know that you're not. And so there had to be something more than that message. I needed something deeper to fix a soul deep problem. And that is the gospel. Why do you think it is that women's

ministries in particular, it seems like anyway, are susceptible to this kind of superficial pithy theology that just makes us feel good about our insecurities rather than digging into the word, which is just as accessible and available to us as it is to anyone else. Well, I have a couple theories. One of them is, I think, because women understand that, generally speaking, in the complementarian world, you're not going to become a pastor. So if you're not going to become a pastor or you're not going into any kind of ministry, why do I need to study theology? And this comes from the misconstrued idea that theology isn't practical, that it doesn't matter to daily life, that it's just for people

who are nerds or really heady or people who just like to read a lot. But we know that studying who God is and how he operates is foundational to every decision you make. And It's your worldview. And so once someone can understand that, I think it helps them go, oh, so I do have a theology already. It's just a shallow one. And when we look at these books that are being written, I think as well-intentioned as the authors are, many times they see a problem. They see this woman's struggling with insecurity. This woman's struggling with her identity.

I'll write a book about identity. And I'll proof-text stuff to talk about that. but they don't go back to the root issue. And they don't talk about what the real problem is, which is, you know, that nasty word we don't like to talk about, sin. Once we deal with that, we can deal with the symptoms. Right. But many women's ministries, you know, would rather make cupcakes and talk about, you know, wearing a crown than doing that. Yeah.

It's almost like people think that our insecurities as women come from the fact that we're too focused on our, sin when very often that is not the case. It's because, like, for example, people often ask me, when I criticize the whole self-love movement, they say, well, do you just want us to hate ourselves? Do you just want us to be self-deprecating? Do you just want us to loathe ourselves? No, self-loathing, self-deprecation is actually just the other side of the self-obsessed coin, the self-focused coin, the self-centered coin. The reason that we are so, the self-obsessed coin, the we are so deep into our insecurity, so deep into all of the different things that might be right or wrong about us is not because we hate ourselves. It's because still we're focusing on

ourselves too much and not enough on the God who made us, not enough on the gospel. And so the answer, the anecdote, or the antidote to what, to self-loathing and self-hatred is not just self-love. It's not just hearing that you're enough. It's not just hearing that you're beautiful. It's the gospel, just like the answer to all things. So I absolutely agree with you. Yeah. And that's why I'm so glad that your book is coming out because I think that it, they go so well together because once you get a foundational understanding of who you are and who God is, then you can talk about and understand this self-love conversation through more open eyes and an open mind. But if you are still thinking, that, you know, this beautiful daughter of God thing, this copy of the world's self-love message

is the one women need, you're not going to even be open to the idea that self-lessness is the way that we're called to walk. Yeah. Tell me about some other problems that you see in female Christianity and women's ministry. I don't know if you and I necessarily land on, you know, in the same place on everything, complementarianism, but there are, you know, are a lot of conversations right now about women being teachers, women being preachers. I'm a Southern Baptist, so the SBC has been having a conversation about this for a long time. A lot of it centered around Beth Moore. Tell me kind of your thoughts on all of that in how you see the Bible giving us insight into that kind of issue. Well, I have many thoughts on that, especially after

the McCarver Moore debacle a couple months ago. I think when we look at what scripture has to say about being a woman, we have to remember that all the commands to Christians as a whole are the foundation for then what's discussed about men and women specifically. So all the fruit of the spirit are expected of both. Now, clearly, there are roles and differences in the sexes. And I did a lot of study of complementarianism and egalitarianism for several years to try to understand both sides and where, you know, my husband and I, where we ended up landing. But as a woman who is leading and teaching, I think one of the big things I see is among women leaders, you are in the Christian world. There's a tendency to not be willing to maybe check

your worldview at the door and say, hey, I'm willing to make sure that I'm on the right track biblically here. I do tend to see a trend towards women who are like, I have a gift. I love scripture. And so I'm going to find out, find a way that the Bible supports this. You know? And I think that's what we are seeing in this polarizing conversation around women leading and complementarian, egalitarian. The real question I have for either side is, are you building your argument off of scripture first and being open to the idea that your worldview and your ideas might have to change? Or do you really, really, really just believe that God's gifted you this way and you're trying to find stuff in scripture to support it? And you're talking about when you're talking about when you're. you're talking about supporting it, are you talking about supporting women, you know, being in the

pulpit preaching to men? Yeah, I would say that's where I see it the most. I'm just going to be transparent. My own view is, I guess you call me a soft complimentarian. I believe that headships clearly in scripture. I don't believe a woman should be a senior pastor. I do think that women may speak and teach in certain contexts when they're under the authority of the pastor. And what about like at conferences and stuff? Because that's also been a point of contention that honestly I hadn't really considered until someone brought it up to me. But someone like Beth Moore, maybe not even Bethmore, because she's, you know, has her own controversies. At least people see her as being controversial. But any woman who you would say, you know, is a faithful Christian and is under male headship at her church and her marriage and all of that, but she speaks somewhere like, you know, an intermixed passion or something like that. Do you see something wrong? with that biblically? No, I think a good example of this is Jen Wilkin. You have someone who honors her husband, honors the pastor of her church, is in ministry who clearly loves the word, who lives a life of integrity, but who speaks at TGC. And there are men and there are women there. I think

there's a lot of freedom that scripture gives on this issue when the woman is in appropriate submission. Of course, we all hate that word today, but it is deferring to covering, deferring to authority. And so in my own life and teaching, I am under the covering, if you will, of my husband and of my pastor who's aware of what I teach and what I do, even though I'm not directly ministering all the time in the church. And so, again, there's a lot of views on this. This is my own view after study. But I do think that when you're striving for a position, when a woman is looking for opportunities to use her voice instead of saying, Lord, are you leading this? Because I know you're not going to lead contrary to the word.

That's when you have a problem. You know, assuming that God is leading everything instead of being willing to check what you desire against what the word's saying. Here's a question for that is, is it possible for a woman to, and I've gone back and forth, you know, about this myself. Someone posed this question to me. is it possible for a woman to teach scripture without authority, since by nature scripture is authoritative. So for someone who is at passion or at another conference woman, preaching to, you know, 22-year-old men,

you're not necessarily under authority of a pastor there, of your husband there. You're teaching, in essence, with authority, because scripture is authoritative. So how do we see something like that biblically? Or am I just kind of confusing the thing? No, I think it's a very valid question. My answer to this is going to maybe be different than where you'd land because I'm a continuationist and I can't remember where you stand on that. But as a continuationist, I believe that spiritual gifts still exist today. And one of them is prophecy. Prophecy, you know, has foretelling and forth telling. Most of the time, prophecy would be forthtelling and it is essentially preaching, which we see women doing in scripture. repeatedly. So in that sense, I do believe that a woman can teach and preach because of the model

that we see in Acts, that we see women acting in that role. But I do think that it still is under that endorsement of whoever is running the conference, if they invited her, if there's a covering of a denomination, her pastor's aware of it. I think that authority structure should be sought out by a woman who is in a position of prophesying, preaching, teaching if it's not there. So asking for that accountability, I don't know that a lot of women do that. I think that it would be highly valuable and biblical for them to do so, though. Yeah. I think that there certainly are, obviously, I believe that there are contexts in which women can talk about the Bible. I mean, talk about the Bible on this podcast, and I can't control who listens to it. I always assume that the

people listening to it are women, and I, you know, address people as women, as moms, as, you know, friends, sisters, whatever. And so certainly I believe that there are contexts in which women can talk about the Bible, especially talking about culture and politics from a biblical respect. It's a little bit different than preaching. I do worry about this kind of Christian brand. And this is a a different issue. It's not necessarily the one we're talking about about complementarianism. But I do worry about this, like Christian brand of female empowerment that is particularly snarky and sassy towards people who are not soft complementarians, but hard complementarians who don't believe that someone should be preaching at passion, who don't believe that people

that there are really context within, you know, the Sunday gathering for a woman to stand up and preach behind the pulpit. And it just looks to me and sounds to me so much like secular feminism of kind of rolling their eyes and laughing at who they think is the patriarchy within the church. And I'm not saying that there aren't fault on the other side of it from people who are making the accusations towards these like what seems like Christian feminist. But to me, it just so mirrors the world, like that there is almost like a scoffing at the woman who was like, you know what, I am gentle and quiet and I don't speak up a whole lot and I am okay with submitting to my husband and submitting to my pastor. There just seems to be a shaking of the fist of some

Christian women of some Christian women on the egalitarian side that makes me very uncomfortable and to me delegitimizes their position because to me they just look so much and sound so much like secular feminists. Yeah. Well, and here's another thing. You can't build an accurate theology that's reactive. Reactive theology is not sound theology. So if you're reacting against a hyper-complementarian and angry about it, and they're just as angry and snarky at you, you've just created division over a non-salvation issue,

and you're in sin because of your attitude. So it truly is an issue I see on both sides. I totally agree with you with the snark of, the progressive side, you know, these ignorant people. A good example is the halftime show. Sarah Bessie, progressive leader, talked, you know, posted on her Twitter about how anybody who didn't like the halftime show or disapproved of it was clutching their pearls and was essentially approved. Yeah. When, you know, making a comment like that is clearly intolerant and biased and not even giving a chance to people who might have been sitting there going, you know what,

I believe in the sanctity of life and sanctity of life means sanctity of sex. I can't approve this. Right. And I'm not going to let my kids watch it. Instead, she assumes that we're all prudes and, you know, we all have horrible sex lives. Like, that's, that's an example of this kind of arrogance that that does not get anybody anywhere. Yeah. And I think we have to be careful if we are not on that side of the fence to remember that our tone should set the example where their tone has failed.

that our tone should not be snarky. We should tell the truth as genuinely as possible, but not come back with the same level of arrogance that they have because then we're just committing the same sins, quite frankly. Right. Both sides, I would say, and I've only kind of come to realize this, are you a little bit reactive. You have, it seems like on the extremes, on the extreme side of, I won't even call it complementarianism, on the extreme side of the other end of feminism. You have people who view like any female complaint or any complaint about how women are treated within the church, any complaint of abuse as like, oh, that person's just trying to push feminism or that person's trying to push social justice. And then on the other side,

on the other extreme, you have women who view anyone who believes in any kind of gender role or any kind of submission, whether it's in the church or in marriage, as not caring about women of wanting women to get abused and wanting to cover up abuse. And both of them, there is a lot of snark back and forth. And there's a lot of combativeness. And I'm looking at both sides. On the one hand, I feel like there's a lot of condescension towards women in reaction to the whole female empowerment movement on the left side. And then there is a reaction to the condescension on the left side towards who they view are the patriarchy. and I'm looking at both, and I just, it makes me very uncomfortable.

And I, you know what? I think that this is a reason we were talking about why women don't get into theology. I think this is why there's a lot of women who are like, I don't, you know what? Theology is for the birds. Theology is for people like this who just want to argue. Theology is for people who want to be divided. I don't like this kind of stuff. I'm uncomfortable.

A lot of women are peacemakers. We want, we are relational. And I think, so I think that's another reason. We're like, if that's what theology is, I don't want to get. get into those debates. Right. Yeah. And I mean, I think a lot of people who are, who do talk about theology, want to debate, which confirms what you're saying. Which I'm fine with. I like theological debates and discussions. I really do. But when it's like a back where people are talking past each other, which I'm totally guilty of, people are talking past each other and over each other

and purposely misunderstanding each other for the sake of retweets or whatever, then that gets very uncomfortable and I think people are like, whatever. I'm just going to go with what I feel. Right. Right. Well, the interesting thing is, though, the way to true peace is going to be by understanding what you believe and why you believe it. Right. Because then you can articulate it in a calm and gentle way and actually have a conversation. But if you continue to run from theology because of how other people are abusing it, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's, you're not. It's, That's not God's intention. Like, if theology is the study of God, understanding him and his intent and how to live your life,

you really can't live without that. And so you don't have to do it the way they're doing it. You don't have to be nasty. You don't have to argue. But you do have to know why you believe what you believe. And so that's always my encouragement to people who feel overwhelmed. Start there. Start with the Bible itself.

And start learning why you believe these things. because there has never been a time, in my opinion, when that was more necessary in the world. Yes, absolutely. And I think another great thing that people can read and do is buy your book, read your book. And I think also follow you because you give a lot of great resources to women

about how to read the Bible and how to take theology seriously. I think in the reforms camp, I'm reformed. I don't know if you consider yourself reformed. Probably not. If you're a continuationist, but there are a lot of reformed people. who believe that the only people who take the Bible seriously, the only people who really read the

Bible are five-point Calvinist. And even though I am a Calvinist, I obviously, I don't believe that. And I look to a lot of your stuff for insights and for wisdom. And I just appreciate what you do. And I highly encourage everyone to go check out your Instagram, your resources. And if there's anything else you want to point people to, please do. Yeah, for sure. So I actually am Wesleyan. So we're kind of on two different sides of this, but I think there's a, in the past, it's true that most of the theological teaching is coming from the reformed camp to your credit. And I read and follow mostly reformed teachers because they're the ones producing this. And there's been a gap in the Wesleyan Armenian world in this area. And so that's kind of where I come from and where I fill that gap in our tradition.

but so grateful for how we're able to hear each other's ideas and listen across the aisle so we can work towards unity in the body. I think that's so exciting and encouraging for Christians to walk side by side in going deeper in theology. So thank you so much, Ali. Yes. Well, we'll have to have you back so we can talk about. Someone actually asked me if we could talk about Calvinism versus Arminianism. I am a Calvinian. I am a Calvinian. You are in Armenianism. A lot of people want to know the differences. People can go back and listen to episodes that I did on predestination, on Tulip, on the five solas, and all of that five solas obviously doesn't have to do with predestination. But people can go back and listen to that. Fulish and I don't

land on the same page on everything. But like I said, Felicia, I'm so thankful for what you do. And thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me. Yep.