Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 246 | Speaking in Tongues & Raising the Dead

Episode Date: May 4, 2020

Today we talk about a much-asked-about subject: continuationism vs. cessationism, which is a debate over whether or not the charismatic gifts of speaking in tongues, prophesying, and performing miracles are still available to the church today. Within this discussion, we will talk about Bethel Church and how its members' passionate emphasis on signs and wonders has led them to the theological place they are today. Show Link: The Gospel Coalition article, "At What Price Awakening? Examining the Theology and Practice of the Bethel Movement:" https://bit.ly/2W07IhI Today's Sponsor: Daily Harvest: Get $25 off your first box athttps://bit.ly/3fgDXRu & use promo code 'RELATABLE'

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hey, guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Monday. I hope everyone had a wonderful weekend. So great news for everyone who is tired of hearing about the coronavirus and tired of the news cycle. We're not going to talk about anything that has to do with any of that today. We are going to talk about a particular theological. subject that a lot of you guys have asked me to address because it is a very popular discussion right now within the church has been a popular discussion for a long time but the popularity of this debate has kind of waxed and waned i would say over the past i don't know 200 years but over the past 10 years especially questions have come up about cessationism versus

continuationism so this is a debate about the spiritual miraculous charismatic gifts that are outlined in the New Testament and whether or not they continue today as the continuationists say or whether or not they ceased after the apostolic age after the canon of the Bible closed which is what cessationist belief so that is what this debate is about we are also going to talk about the dangers of one side of this we're going to talk about specifically Bethel Church and some of the theological issues with Bethel Church. And look, I understand that there are a lot of you out there when I did the episode on Wake Up Olive a few months ago, the trending hashtag that was going on on social media about the

precious little girl who had died. And the worship leader at Bethel, the mother was trying to raise her from the dead and rallying the powers of social media in order to not just pray for that, but also declare and demand that. I gave my thoughts on that and I got a lot of angry reviews or at least a few angry reviews and comments about that. So I anticipate that I will get some angry comments about what I have to say about Bethel and their view of the charismatic gifts. But that is not my goal to cause you to be angry or to cause controversy. I actually don't like controversy, believe it or not. I don't even like confrontation.

Like I don't like being confrontational. I know that my. be a surprising to a lot of you, but I actually don't enjoy that. I talk about the things that I talk about because I am looking for truth and I want to speak truth. And I believe that you guys are are worth being told the truth too. And I am always willing to be corrected. I am always willing to be debated and discussed with and rebuked, especially when it comes to scripture. if you can point me to the scripture that contradict something, I'm saying, I want nothing more than to be corrected in that vein. And that goes for today, absolutely. Cessationism versus continuationism is not a gospel issue in and of itself. So that means if you are a Christian who

believes the opposite of what I believe, which I'll get into that today, then that doesn't mean that we disagree on the fundamentals of the gospel. It is a secondary issue. However, it's an important issue because there's a lot of confusion about what kind of gifts Christians today should be striving toward and what kind of gifts are real and what we should be looking for and how we verify all this stuff. And so that's what we're going to start to get into today. We could have 600 episodes on this alone, at least six episodes on this alone, but we're going to try to cover what we can in a single episode. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Alley, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral,

spiritual and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this Steve Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Okay, let's get into all of this. Like I said,

I get asked about this a lot because of its popularity. There are a lot of people wondering, okay, like, should I be trying to speak in tongues? Is it true when someone prophesized over me that my dad is going to die in 12 years and then I need to travel to Israel before next week? like are these things real? Should I be trying to prophesy over people? Should I be laying hands on people? Should I be looking at this stuff skeptically? Or is it because I lack faith? So a lot of people are asking these questions and it centers on this debate between continuationism and cessationism. That has been going on for a long time. Now, as you know, if you have listened to this podcast for any amount of time, I consider myself a reformed Christian. So a reformed Protestant, specifically

a reformed Southern Baptist. I am a Calvinist. Calvinist isn't a denomination. That's another podcast episode I need to do about the different denominations and what they believe as well as the different Bible translations. These are all things that I'm asked about a lot. But I wanted to address this one today because it's such a pressing question and such a pervasive problem and confusion that I see happening in young Christianity. But I am a reformed Southern Baptist, Calvinist. If you don't know what that means, if you don't know what it means to be reformed, you can go back and listen to an episode that I did in the summer of 2019, so almost a year ago, called Five Solas. And that will tell you, that will give you a pretty good briefing of what it means to be reformed.

So the reason why this is, the reason why this is so pressing is because Bethel Church, specifically, is extremely continuationist, if you can even call it that. It's extremely what you would call Pentecostal in its leanings. It is on what I would say is on the pretty far end of the continuationist spectrum. If you haven't heard the testimony of Lindsay Davis on the podcast, Cultish, I really encourage you to do that, even if you're a fan of Bethel, like just hear what she has to say. She can give you insight from an insider's perspective on what goes on there and her experience there. Like I said, I did an episode on Wake Up Olive in that situation.

So you can go back and listen to that if you're interested in it. But as a reformed Christian, I am on the other end of the spectrum. Not the extreme end. I don't even know if you can call it the extreme end of the cessationist spectrum. but I am a cessationist. Most reformed Christians are, though not all. And I will explain my reasoning behind that and the theological differences between the two. And while I'm doing that, I'm going to take a detour and explain specifically why Bethel Church is dangerous in their theology, not because primarily because of their continuationism, but because their continuationism led them down,

led them down a bad path, it seems like, to being a very mystical place. But before you get defensive and before you get angry, just hear me out and listen to the part where I actually talk about that. So just to reiterate, this disagreement that we have, though, on cessationism and continuationism alone is not a salvation issue. So we agree, we can agree that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and still disagree on continuationism versus cessationism. So let's talk more thoroughly about what each stance represents, what those who hold to these positions actually believe in why. And to do that,

we need to define our terms. So cessationism versus continuationism is, again, about the miraculous gifts and whether they have ceased, which is what cessationism holds, or whether they continue, which is what a continuationism holds. Now, what are miraculous gifts? Now, what are miraculous gifts? gifts, what are charismatic gifts? For that, we go to 1 Corinthians 12, 4 through 11. Now there are a variety of gifts. The Bible says, this is God through Paul, to the church at Corinth, but the same spirit. And there are varieties of service, but the same Lord. And there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. To each is given the manifestation of the spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the spirit the utterance of wisdom.

and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same spirit, to another faith by the same spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one spirit, to another the work of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. And then continuing with 1 Corinthians 14 1 through 5. Pursue love and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God, for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the spirit. On the other hand, the one who

prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets so that the church may be built up. So the charismatic gifts are typically inclusive of prophecy, forth telling prophecy or foretelling prophecy. So prophecy that is foretelling the future.

These are the charismatic gifts speaking in tongues, healing, typically the laying on of hands to accomplish miraculous, healing in other miracles. The continuationist view reads this passage in others and says, this is crystal clear. God through Paul says these are gifts that the Holy Spirit has endowed to the church and he is telling us to eagerly pursue them. So if we hold a high view of scripture, the continuationist might say, as all Christians should, why would we discount or diminish these passages or determine them to be expired, which is a really great question? Continuation. has hold that these gifts have existed and have never stopped existing since the day of Pentecost,

which is described in Acts 2. That's where you get the term a Pentecostal church, which is charismatic. So Acts 2 versus 1 through 4 says this. When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind. And it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues of fire appeared to them and rest of on each one of them and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. So this was the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised to all believers. In John 1426, Jesus says this, but the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Acts 1 5, in Acts 1 5, Jesus says believers are baptized for the Holy Spirit. Acts 1 8 quotes Jesus, saying this but you will receive power when the holy spirit has come upon you and you will be my witnesses in jerusalem and in all judea and samaria and to the end of the earth so the holy spirit is a person of the trinity the third person of the trinity an equal person of the triune godhead who came to be with believers in the early church after jesus's death and resurrection as he had promised although it is important to know that the holy note that the holy spirit has always existed and has been with god's People, Mark 1236 says that David spoke in the Holy Spirit. This Holy Spirit, according to Jesus, is our teacher.

He is our reminder. He is a giver of power. Multiple times throughout Acts, we read about saying something in the Holy Spirit, it's being filled with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit of falling on the early church so that they possessed the Holy Spirit. There are other things the Bible says that the Holy Spirit is, such as the guarantee of our inheritance in Christ, as Ephesians 114 says, literally the down payment on the inheritance that we will receive one day when we are with Christ. 1 Corinthians 619 says, our bodies are a dwelling

place for the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 121 for no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. So throughout the New Testament, what you will see is that the Holy Spirit is a comforter, a giver of wisdom, our source of power and strength and perseverance. He gives us boldness. He gives us belief. He gives words to speak that is in alignment with God's will and the gospel of Christ. He is our assurance of our salvation. He is a teacher, a reminder, a helper. He dwells in believers and produces fruit in us, which Galatians 522 through 23 says is, but the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

Hebrews 2.4 says that God bore witness to the truth of salvation through Christ through, quote, signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to His will. And this verse brings us back to our original passage that we started out with when we started discussing continuationism, 1 Corinthians 12, 4 through 11. The Hebrew's passage says that God authenticated the gospel through miracles and signs and gifts of the Holy Spirit. What are the gifts of the Holy Spirit? The 1 Corinthians passage told us. To one is given through the spirit, the utterance of wisdom,

the utterance of knowledge, another faith by the same spirit, another gifts of healing, the working of miracles, prophecy, the ability to distinguish spirits, other kinds of tongues, the interpretation of tongues, all empowered by the same Holy Spirit. So the continuationist would read all of this in saying, say believers obviously still have the Holy Spirit. We read that throughout the New Testament, the Holy Spirit is God. God doesn't change. The Holy Spirit is described in Scripture as being

the channel by which these gifts are given. The empowerment of these gifts are given through the Holy Spirit. Why wouldn't God through his same Holy Spirit, which is alive in believers today, still perform these same gifts and same miracles through his church? And so continue, aiming to heat scripture, do what God through Paul tells the church in Corinth to do, earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, which the Bible says is done for the upbuilding of the church, for the edification of the church. John Piper, who served as a resource that I turn to time and again. I love his podcast, Ask Pastor John. I turned to him time and again for my theological questions. He holds this view. He is what I would call a cautious continuation.

He has stated that he believes in and prays for prophetic power when he speak to say things that are of the Holy Spirit but aren't necessarily, you know, in his notes or even written down in the Bible. Wayne Grudham, another person whom I turn to as a resource, his two books, politics according to the Bible and systematic theology, have been hugely helpful to me. He also holds the view of John Piper. These are two who I would call cautious continuation. who are absolutely in line with biblical theology and they hold to continuationism. So there are reformed people. They are reformed. There are reformed people who are continuationist. Then there are other continuationist charismatic churches who not only hold that these miraculous

spiritual gifts are still being given to the church and that we should pursue them, but they pursue them, teach them and display them in a way that does not reflect scripture, but instead reflects superstition and therefore it leads people away from the gospel of Christ. This is what we see in so-called Word of Faith churches, the heretical churches that preach a message of name it and claim it. You've probably heard that term before. I name what I want and God gives it to me because of my faith. This is a false prosperity gospel that treats God as some sort of genie rather than who he actually is, the God of the universe. It treats God as someone who gives people a lot more power than we actually have

and views people as much more entitled to material blessings than we actually are. This word of faith movement, if you will, was born out of 20th century Pentecostalism, which sought to make the church reflect what it was at the time of Pentecost that we read about in Acts, where people were performing signs and wonders through the Holy Spirit. This is, as you know, continuationism, the full form of continuationism. This was a departure when this movement was happening in the 20th century and still today is a departure from Orthodox Church doctrine. And it was and is a mixture of biblical theology and mysticism.

It is extremely New Age. As we've talked about many times on this podcast, New Age philosophy regards human, not as just made in God's image and therefore, or not at all, made in God's image and therefore valuable, but inherently sinful in need of a Savior. The new age views us as actual gods and goddesses, inherently flawless and good deep down inside. The word of faith takes on parts of that new age idea, believing that we are inherently good deep down, that we are powerful. Our faith unleashes this power inside all of us to do things like raise the dead, heal sickness, gain wealth, etc.

Got questions.org is a really great resource. I know it might sound like a hokey site, but it's really not. It's a really great and thorough resource for theological questions, and it describes Word of Faith in this way. Word of Faith claims that God created humans in his literal physical image as little gods. Before the fall, humans had the potential to call things into existence by using faith force. After the fall, humans took on Satan's nature and lost the ability to call things into existence. In order to correct this situation, Jesus Christ gave up his divinity and became a man, died spiritually,

took Satan's nature upon himself, went to hell, was born again, and rose from the dead with God's nature. After this, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to replicate the incarnation in believers so they could become little gods as God had originally intended. That's the word of faith. It continues by saying, following the natural progress, of these teachings as little gods, we again have the ability to manipulate the faith force and become prosperous in all areas of life. Illness, sin, and failure are the result of a lack of faith and are remedied by confession, claiming God's promises for oneself into existence. Simply put, the Word of Faith movement exalts man to God's status and reduces God to man status. Now that you are hearing this, you have probably heard some pastors that you know of who are very popular. They have

spouted this kind of heretical nonsense. So some examples of that would be false teachers like Kenneth Copeland and Binahan. Now, now apparently Binahan has repented, which is wonderful, but these people are known as health and wealth or word of faith, name it and claim it preachers who preach a form of superstition and mysticism that is not biblical Christianity, that does not represent the Bible, that does not represent the gospel. GotQuestions.org lists some references that go against the doctrine, this doctrine of word of faith, saying this, countering word of faith teaching is a simple matter of reading the Bible. God alone is the sovereign creator of the universe, Genesis 1-3, and does not need faith. He is the object of faith, Mark 1112. God is spirit and does not

have a physical body, John 424. Man was created in the image of God, Genesis 1-26 and 27, but this does not make him a little God or divine. Only God has a divine nature, Galatians 4-8, is eternal, the only begotten son, and the only incarnation of God, John 1-1. In him dwelt the fullness of the godhead bodily, Colossians 2-9. By becoming a man, Jesus gave up the glory of heaven, but not his divinity, Philippians 2-6 through 7, though he did not choose, though he did choose to withhold his power while walking the earth as man. And here's where we get a little controversial.

Bethel Church falls into this category of word of faith. heretical teaching. Bethel is not wrong on everything. I appreciate their strong stance on marriage, on abortion, on other hot-button issues that quite frankly a lot of non-charismatic churches are silent on. They won't even touch because they're afraid of offending people. So I appreciate, I truly do, and applaud them for their integrity when it comes to these topics that so many people won't even approach. However, as I said, I highly encourage you to go back and listen to the Lindsay Davis testimony as well as to read the words of the pastor of Bethel Church, Bill Johnson, whom congregants affectionately

refer to as Papa Bill. Now, I also would refer you to the documentary American Gospel. It's on Amazon Prime. There's an abbreviated version on YouTube. American Gospel Christ crucified. Could not recommend it more. Please go watch it, especially if you are offended by what I'm saying. But we can go to the pastor of Bethel Church himself, Bill Johnson, to see some of the things that they believe rather than trying to, you know, put words in their mouth. So Bill Johnson believes, if you read his work, that signs and wonders, what we're talking about here, are the essential goal of the church. So here are some quotes from his book, when heaven invades earth. God wants to take us farther. This is what he says. God wants to take us farther, and we can only get there by following

signs. Our present understanding of scripture can only take us so far. He says we should stop fixating on our need to protect ourselves from deception. Rather, our hunger for him must be seen in our lustful pursuit of spiritual gifts. Johnson says to follow Jesus, we must be willing to follow off the map to go beyond what we know. So Johnson believes that Jesus set aside his divinity when he came to earth, as all false word of faith teachers do. He wrote this. Jesus laid aside his divinity as he's. sought to fulfill the assignment given to him by the father. But Colossians 2.9 says, for in him,

in Jesus, the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. So the implications, how this connects together, the implications of Johnson's assertion is that because Jesus set aside his divinity and performed miracles, we can perform all the same miracles that Jesus did. That's actually something that he wrote in the book when heaven invades earth. But that line of reasoning also means that we too can live perfectly sinful lives. Jesus did so while laying aside his divinity so we must be able to as well. The logic goes. But Romans 7 14 through 24 makes really clear that human beings Christians will always wrestle with sin. We are made righteous because of and in Christ, but we ourselves will still sin even though our goal through the Holy Spirit is to sin less and less as our lives go on to be

sanctified and to be conformed to Christ. But he doesn't just believe. Johnson doesn't just believe, the head of Bethel Church that Christians can and should become perfect in this life, he also believes that we should be without sickness and poverty. He writes this. Jesus destroyed the power of sin, sickness, and poverty through his redemptive work on the cross. In Adam and Eve's commission to subdue the earth, they were without sickness, poverty, and sin. Now that we are restored to his original purpose, should we expect anything less?

After all, this is called the Better Covenant. First, if Jesus lay aside, if Jesus lay aside his divinity on earth, then there is no redemptive work of the cross. So if Jesus is just a person who died, who like you and me, can be sinless and perform miracles, that he is not the spotless land that God promised. He is not enough to eternally reconcile us to a holy God. Only the perfect sacrifice of God is enough to satisfy the perfect wrath of God. Second, Jesus did not destroy sickness and poverty.

Only on the other side of eternity will we enjoy sinlessness, wholeness, and unconditional abundance in Christ. 2. Corinthians 2.9 through 10 says, Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities for when I am weak, than I am strong. Paul went through hardship and calamity and weakness. All of the apostles did. Christians throughout history have Christians right now throughout the world are in poverty, are sick, are facing persecution. Is their faith not genuine? Because Bill Johnson says if we had more faith and went off the map, they would experience God more fully. Then there was an article.

There was an article that was written by the Gospel Coalition, Australia, by Stephen Tan, that analyzes the theology of Bethel. He writes this, the pursuit of signs and wonders has led to a litany of bizarre and sometimes blasphemous spiritual practices at Bethel. Perhaps the most infamous example of this is their claim that the glory cloud of God's chakina presence often manifests itself in their worship services. You can find videos on YouTube of the quote glory cloud, which is made up of gold dust that look suspiciously like the glitter that you can purchase at your local arts and craft store. They also report feathers appearing in their worship services, which they claim belong to angels. Benny Johnson, Bill Johnson's wife, and other Bethel leaders practice what is called

grave-sucking or grave-soaking, where they lay atop the graves of famous dead Christians to suck the anointing that they believe is contained in their bones. Okay? Biddy posted a picture on social media of herself soaking at C.S. Lewis's grave, among others. Okay, guys, do I need to explain how this is unbiblical? All I think I need to say is that this is not in the Bible. At Bethel, the article goes on, that at Bethel, a myriad of practices is encouraged under the banner of, quote, prophetic.

This includes prophetic cards, which are similar to tarot cards, and are practiced by an associated ministry. in Melbourne. It also includes prophetic dancing, painting, drumming, and even destiny pants that will purportedly enhance your awareness of God's presence and help you be a walking encounter of heaven's message to those around you. Okay, so I will, by the way, I will include the link of this article in the description of this episode so you guys can go to the article and go to the sources for all of these claims. So you don't think that I'm just pulling these out of thin air. There's more. People in the Bethel movement believe that raising the dead should be something we aspire to.

As a result, some Bethel students formed a dead raising team. They go to the morgue to practice raising the dead. They also listen to the radio and try to beat ambulances to accidents to raise the dead or heal the injured before the ambulance arise. From all accounts, they have yet to raise their first corpse. Christianity Today reports that in 2008, two Bethel students were involved in an accident that left the man stricken at the base of a 200-foot cliff. The students believed that the man had died, and so they tried to resurrect him by prayer. They waited until the next morning to call emergency services. Thankfully, the man survived, but unfortunately, he remained paralyzed. This is also very tragically what occurred with the wake-up all of phenomenon that happened a few months ago. They tried to rally the rest of social media and their church Christians around the world

to declare and demand resurrection of this poor, precious baby girl. And Bill Johnson said at the time on social media that some people don't die in God's timing. So in other words, God isn't sovereign. The article goes on to say, Bethel leaders Bill Johnson and Chris Volatan teach the physics of heaven, which is a way to explore the mysteries of God hidden in sound, light, vibrations, frequencies, energy, and quantum physics. They allege that God uses these different expressions of his creation to usher us into the fullness of Pentecost. Again, totally and completely unbiblical.

Now, did God create physics? Can we enjoy him and glorify him through the study of physics? Yes. But are we channeling him through certain energies and frequencies? No. This is New Age. And unfortunately, this is the direction of much, not all, but much of Pentecostalism. It is about stirring up your emotions, giving you a spiritual,

emotional experience and unfortunately introducing you to a God who does not exist. A God who is a genie, a God who is elusive, who is a mystic rather than the preeminent creator of the universe who is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Bethel Church, while I'm sure they have lots of wonderful people, is led by someone who preaches a false gospel, which has led unfortunately to superstitious. false practices. His over-emphasis on signs and wonders and miracles has led the church into new age mysticism that doesn't look like biblical Christianity and doesn't look like the early church that they say that they're trying to emulate. Now, Bethel, as I've said, and I just want

to reiterate, Bethel is not an example of all continuationism or all continuationist. Like I said, John Piper and Wayne Gurdum to very solid people and other very solid biblical reformed people believe in the continuation of gifts. But the distinctions I would say are, one, they are, like I said, what I would call cautious continuationists. You are probably not going to see people speaking in tongues and gatherings that they are a part of, but they believe that people can still do so today, and John Piper has said that he pursues and prays for the power of prophecy to prophesy. The second distinction, I would say, is that biblical continuationist, so people who believe the Word of God is anerrant and go to the Word of God as their sole source of wisdom, these kind of continuation is whole to

the orderly directives concerning spiritual gifts found in the Bible. So in 1 Corinthians 14, that passage that we keep going back to, God through Paul says exactly, actually it's a couple chapters later than the 1st Corinthians 12 passage we originally talked about, but God through Paul says exactly how speaking in tongues and prophesying should be done if you hold to the idea that they are still being done today. There is an order. There are rules. We read from Genesis through Revelation and seeing creation today that God is a God of order. He is a God of intention. He isn't a God of randomness. or cosmic mysticism or the new age, he is an arranger. He is an orderer. He is an organizer. He does things purposely. He asks us to do things purposely and with intention and in order that he ordains.

So if you are to hold to the continuation's view and be in line with scripture, there will be an orderliness to the expression of these gifts. and they will, that's A, and B, they will not be this central message that you preach. They will not be central to the gospel of salvation. You will not pretend that pursuing these gifts is the ultimate expression of being a follower of Christ, is that is not biblical. However, as I mentioned at the top, I am not a continuationist. Love John Piper, love Wayne Grudem, love a lot of people who are continuationists and learn from them. I am not a continuationist. I am a cessationist. I believe that the charismatic gifts ended with the apostolic age. This is the orthodox view that the church has held for centuries. This is not mean that I believe that God cannot perform miracles or even that he doesn't perform miracles. I believe he can and does. But that performing miracles, such as speaking in tongues and miraculous healing or prophesying the future, are not current part of the Christian ministry.

Again, doesn't mean we don't pray for miracles and that God doesn't do them. But we believe these charismatic gifts performed by the spirit through people have ceased. And here is why. Miracles performed by God through people are shown throughout the Bible. We know that. They are always performed to authenticate the message of the messenger. The miracles that God performed through Moses authenticated his message to Pharaoh, Elijah, Jesus, the apostles, the early church, all of these performed miracles as authentication of

God's message delivered through them and in Jesus's case, authenticating his own identity as God. In the early church, the miraculous gifts of speaking in tongues and healing and wonders were used in the same way to authenticate the gospel to non-believers and prophecy was used to build up the church. But the charismatic or miraculous gifts were not mentioned in later letters and later books of the Bible. The mention of speaking in tongues stops. Healing apparently becomes less frequent as the epistles go on. Got Questions.org. Again, list examples of this. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eudicus from the dead in Acts 20, did not heal Apaphroditis in Philippians 2. Trophemus in 2 Timothy 4, Timothy in 1st,

Timothy 5 or even himself, 2 Corinthians 12. The reasons for Paul's failures to heal are, one, the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship, and two, the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently proved, making further miracles unnecessary. These miraculous gifts were also not mentioned in the post-apostolic writings of ancient church fathers like Justin the Martyr and Augustine. Now, I will note that prophecy doesn't always mean predicting the future. So not everyone who says that they are prophesying or that they believe in prophecy is saying that they are foretelling the future, but that may be that they are forth telling the word of God. And that's what it means. Prophecy in the Greek means to speak forth.

So it can just mean preaching, telling the truth about the word of God, which of course, as cessationist, we believe, we still believe happens and is necessary and is central to Christian ministry. But we do not believe that God is revealing himself in particular. or extra-biblical ways to people who claim to have a certain word for you that is not found in the word of God, telling you something that is going to happen in the future that they claim is from God. God grants wisdom to teach and to explain his word and the gospel. Yes, through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit offers direction, offers insight, but we do not believe, cessationists do not believe,

that God is still adding on to his word, to the canon, and that we have to, quote, go off the map. as Bill Johnson of Bethel says. To believe that, you have to believe that scripture is not sufficient. And you will be constantly anxious looking for new revelation, and you will have no way to verify this new revelation except by the proclamation of the person who is giving this proclamation and this prophecy. As it is, all preaching should be weighed against the Word of God. The canon is closed.

We don't need anything additional. Of course, we listen to wisdom and we listen to insight and we listen to exegetical preaching, but it all goes back and is verified by the Word of God. But if someone gives you a special word that cannot be verified by the Word of God, but is in an effort to add something to the Word of God, you have nothing to verify it by. And then you are left waiting in this weird new age world that unfortunately some continuationist churches have found themselves in and have led congregants to, and unfortunately, have led them also to, a false gospel. So to reiterate, there are continuationist Christians, continuationist churches

that are striving to be biblical, that believe in Sola Scripture, believe in the inerrancy of God's word that we agree on on 99% of stuff. We just disagree on that. And then you've also got people who are on the far end of the spectrum who have really gone off the deep end into preaching something that is totally not biblical because they have centralized these signs and wonders and taken them out of their biblical context. and continued them unbiblically. And then, of course, I'm sure you have other side of the cessationist spectrum. If you even want to call it that, people maybe who deny the power of the Holy Spirit altogether,

that would also be unbiblical. The Holy Spirit, cessationists know, is real and powerful and does all of the things that Jesus says that the Holy Spirit is and is going to do to help us to teach us, to remind us, to comfort us and strengthen us. So I hope that that makes sense. Again, we could go into so many different parts of it. and there are so many awesome resources out there. There's a resource about this by Wayne Grudem.

Let's see if I can pull up the name. Okay, our miraculous gifts for today, four views by Wayne Grudem. So if you are interested in knowing more about that, check it out. And let me know if you have any questions. I'll see you guys back here on Wednesday. Hey, this is Steve Dase. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political.

They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God. humanity and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where

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