Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 253 | MLMs: Companies or Cults?

Episode Date: May 22, 2020

Today we discuss the controversy over multi-level marketing. Are these companies manipulative, money-grabbing cults or a legitimate means of earning income? Send "Pre-order Proof of Purchase" for Book to: [e-mail] Today's Sponsors: The Classical Learning Test is shorter than the SAT and ACT and students now take it from the comfort of their home through remote proctoring technology. To register for the June 20th official college entrance exam visit https://www.cltexam.com/.

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV

or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Friday. I hope everyone had a wonderful week. Today we are going to talk about a topic that is pretty controversial, a pretty sensitive subject, I would say, and that is the subject of MLN. or multi-level marketing companies or businesses. And what I think about them and how I think Christians should be approaching this topic and approaching MLMs and engaging with MLMs. Like I said on Instagram, do not get preemptively offended by this.

Please, whenever I talk about or whenever I say that I am going to talk about a controversial topic, I always get messages saying, you know, please research this or please make sure you know what you're talking about before you talk about it. Of course. I always do my research before I talk about something. And my goal is always to bring you the truth in love and to be as honest and to be as truthful and as gracious and as sensitive as I possibly can be without sparing any fact or any side of it. Now, am I perfect at that? not. I'm sure I have failed it that many times and you guys always let me know. But with this topic, as with all topics, I am going to try to show you both sides of it. And then I will conclude with what I think

and then again, how I think we should be looking at this from a Christian perspective. Hey, this is Steve Deast. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity and reality. itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos.

If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch the Steve Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Okay, let's get into this about MLMs. Are you guys excited? Are you nervous? You have no idea what I'm going to say. Don't be nervous about this if you're in an MLM. I actually think that this is going to be an episode, interestingly enough, that is not going to offend anyone. I really think that both sides will be fairly pleased with my assessment of this. That's not my goal. It's just kind of how it ended up after I prepared for this. So first, if you're unfamiliar with what an MLM is, let me get your skim. you a broad definition, a multi-level marketing company. It's typically made up of people who make money by selling the products of a company and by recruiting people who also sell the products and recruit people, and then those people sell the products and recruit people and so on and so on. So you are making money in an MLM both from selling the products to people, so direct sales, but you are also making

money from the sales that are made by the people you recruit. And sometimes you even make money from the recruitment itself. You get a percentage of whatever your recruits get when they make a sale. So the more people you recruit and the more people they recruit and so on, the more money you make in an MLM. So it's not just how much you sell. It's also how much people that you have recruited sell and the people that they have recruited sell. But all legitimate multi-level marketing companies are focused on a product that they are selling, not just a way to get rich. They are selling a product that there is an actual demand for in the market. That is a big thing that differentiates an MLM from a pyramid scheme, which we'll get into a little bit more in a minute. We're going to

talk about the goods and the bads of MLMs and how Christians should be thinking about them. First, let me give you some background about me. Why, I know quite a bit about this subject, probably more than most people do who are not actually in MLM. So I grew up in the world of multi-level marketing. My parents were in Amway that wasn't their main source of income, but it was a big part of our lives growing up. How I learned about leadership, networking, building teams, showing the plan as it was called financial freedom and independent entrepreneurship, the beauty of being your own boss, the beauty of being able to work, from home, all of that I learned from my parents being in Amway. And all of this really impacted me

and the goals that I made for myself growing up and what I wanted to do with my life. A part of how I am is my personality and part of it is this upbringing that I've never been a huge fan of authority, whether that's in school or just in life in general. I have always been pretty much the way that I am now. I love to learn and I love to be taught by people who are much smarter than me and have a lot more experience than me. I'm always willing to learn more and I love learning. But ultimately, I want to be independent when it comes to what I do professionally. I want to be in charge of what I do. Not of other people. I don't have any interest in managing other people at all or even running a company or anything like that, but I like to be in charge of my schedule, in charge of my content,

in charge of my career trajectory. And I don't mean that I don't sacrifice my wants for the sake of other people or my family because I do and I'm so glad to do that. But I don't like being controlled by a boss or limited by a job. I don't like being told what I can say or when or how specifically I have to do something. Again, I'm okay with parameters and shared goals and people instructing and helping me. I don't like being controlled. I don't like being managed or micromanaged.

I'm not even saying that's a good thing that is just a part of my personality that God gave me that was also fostered in growing up in this world of multi-level marketing. It also shaped me as someone who not just wanted to be my own boss, but who just values freedom and flexibility in general and who values that kind of independence and self-reliance. And again, I'm not talking about in a spiritual sense. I'm just talking about in a professional sense. The world of multi-level marketing really values freedom, values flexibility, and values success and dreaming and goal reaching in all of that stuff. So I was born independent, but I was also raised to value independence, not raised to value, you know, necessarily monetary wealth or superficial gains or anything like that. but the freedom and the flexibility and the independence part, that certainly I gleaned and gained

from the world of multi-level marketing. And for all of this, I am really thankful. People ask me what my parents did to help build, building me confidence to speak in front of people and to do things like this podcast. And a lot of it had to do with the culture that Anne White created, although my parents would have just raised me like that anyway because they were very hard workers who were entrepreneurs themselves but amway certainly had a place in my life and create these things i went to uh i went to conferences all the time i heard people speak we listened to tapes and cdies in the card of people talking about leadership we read books about how to dream big and make goals and things like that i watched people go from being changed at a at a desk

job that didn't have any upward mobility to being able to be financially independent and provide for their families in a new way. All of this, I think, very positively impacted me. But, but I also saw the other side of multi-level marketing, which I noticed more as I grew up. For some people, it does become a religion. So, for example, instead of sharing the gospel to the person at a checkout counter, the Christian who is in an MLM might be more apt to share their business and in much the same way that they might share the gospel if they were sharing the gospel. The hope that they offer strangers so often Christians in an MLM isn't of eternal life and peace and God, but of wealth and the ability to work from home.

That is what is constantly compelling them. That is what inspires them. That is what they want to talk about most, not the gospel of Jesus. Jesus Christ that they claim to believe in, but instead this gospel of financial freedom and opportunities that are provided in the MLM and the evangelism of many who work in MLMs are extremely, it's extremely persistent. Every mom you know probably has a story of someone that they haven't talked to in 10 years reaching out to them via Facebook and asking if they're looking for a way to make more money, which in itself may not be inappropriate.

But absent of any real connection or relationship, this kind of outreach makes people feel used and like commodities rather than like real people. And by the way, I'll say my parents were never like this. My parents, like I said, this wasn't their main source of income. So it wasn't the center of our lives. And it's not everything they did. And my parents are really good at building genuine relationships and friendships. So I didn't see this from them, but I've seen it from other people. I saw it growing up and I see it even now in MLMs.

For example, I experience. this for myself, my husband and I were visiting a church a couple years ago, maybe three years ago. Now a couple approached us. They were super nice. She asked for my phone number. She said that she was going to text me to hang out. And we were so excited because we were in this new church and we felt like, wow, God presented us with these new friends, a young couple friend at the first, on the first day of this, of going to this new church. So we already had a potential friendship. and we were so excited about that. I didn't hear from her for a couple weeks.

She didn't text me or anything like that. I didn't see her again. And then on a random night, I get a phone call from her, hadn't talked to her at all since I had seen them at church. And she asks how we're doing for like two seconds and how things are going, how church is going and things like that. And then I answer her. She doesn't seem that interested.

And then she immediately asks me if I'm looking for another way to make money. and she makes her pitch for her MLM. And I'm like, no, I'm not looking for another way to make money. I'm looking for a friend. Thanks a lot. We didn't have any kind of relationship before that. She didn't know me. And after I told her, I wasn't interested in that she never reached out to me again.

Unfortunately, for some people, Christians in particular, evangelizing their MLM takes the place of both true evangelism and building true relationships with those in the body of Christ. It becomes their religion at the expense of the Christian life. A mini MLM conferences are like a worship conference. The person who started the business is hailed as like this God or goddess-like figure. The people who have been successful in the business are worshipped like heroes of the faith. Using songs at these conferences, not about God, but about confidence and success in money. There's a lot of emotion when hearing a testimony about someone whose life has been changed.

by that particular business. And sometimes these businesses are even kind of cult-like. They claim that there is no other business or no other place or no other community like this MLN. Like there's something divine or special about the purpose of this particular MLM. They claim that membership in the MLM or reaching a certain level will grant you access or satisfaction or fulfillment, the things that you have truly been longing for. and you'll finally be at peace. What also makes MLMs kind of cult-like some, not all,

some MLMs kind of cult-like is how they use parts of Christianity in their messaging to make their purpose and mission sound transcendent and monumental. There can be a very incestuous relationship between the world of multi-level marketing and the prosperity gospel. You hear the idea that God's desire for you is to be wealthy, to be independent, that God is using this company to accomplish a special purpose, and that purpose is to make sure moms have a way to make money or to get the word out about the amazingness of oils or whatever it is.

MLM culture, if you will, is very intertwined with not just the prosperity gospel, but it's also intertwined with the self-love culture, which in itself is intertwined with the prosperity gospel. it's intertwined with what I call the toxic culture of self-love. They are focused on self-reliance, on self-empowerment, on self-betterment, which is understandable from a secular perspective and even maybe in some ways, like a professional perspective, like what I was saying before, but not from a Christian perspective, not in all areas of your life.

You can sell a product and you can even recruit people in a company without buying into the unbiblical self-focused mindset that is unfortunately propagated by a lot of MLMs. There is also another problem with MLMs. There are a lot of them which are actually pyramid schemes. So there are businesses that they try to show themselves as MLMs, but they are really pyramid schemes. So MLMs sell a product that the market is demanding.

For example, a makeup MLM or a leggings MLM or an essential oils MLM all of these companies started with a product, a product that the people who sell them believe in and probably use, a product that people want and love and buy the distributors in these companies focus on selling these products. They love the product themselves, they have used it, they sell the product and they recruit people

to sell the product, they make money from recruiting people, but the focus isn't on recruitment and a true MLM. If it's not a pyramid scheme, a pyramid scheme focuses almost exclusively on recruitment. There is a big so-called investment or fee when your recruits sign up or for the recruit when the recruits sign up. And you get a percentage of that. If you recruited someone, they sign up, they pay the large fee, you get a percentage of that sign up. Every time you sign someone up, you get a percentage of that fee. And that is how you make money. There are products sold in pyramid schemes, but the product is not the focus. The

focus is recruitment. The focus is getting rich quick. The focus is not on selling the product at all. In fact, some pyramid schemes, a lot of pyramid schemes actually don't have a real product. It might just kind of be a facade to get people to sign up. So not all MLMs are pyramid schemes. I would say most today MLMs are probably not pyramid schemes, but all pyramid schemes are disguised as legitimate MLMs. So what are my thoughts on all of this and how do I think that we should think about MLMs and approach MLMs as Christians, as Christian women? So here is, here's what I believe. MLMs are not inherently bad. And in fact, they can be very good. And I know that statement might disappoint a lot of you out there because there are strong feelings against MLMs. But MLMs are not

inherently bad. And again, I know a lot of you think they are, but they can be a legitimate means of making money and providing for families, given that you think about these few things. So there are, let's see, six things that if you are in an MLM or you are thinking about joining an MLM, there are six things that I think that you should consider before joining or if you're considering staying in one. These are six things that I believe that you need to make sure of as a Christian woman. Number one, make sure that it's not a pyramid scheme. Is there an actual product being sold? And is the focus sales rather than just recruiting people and making a buck off the sign up fee. If it is a pyramid scheme, then you don't need to be a part of it. That is deceptive and conniving

and therefore simple. And you can do more research on your own. There are a lot of of resources out there that help you pinpoint what a pyramid scheme actually is and can help you decide if what you're a part of is a pyramid scheme or a legitimate MLM. Number two, make sure that you do your research. So look at the leaders of the company. What is their past? Is it riddled with failed or sketchy business ventures? Do they seem to have integrity? How did they come up with their product? Was it just to create this company? Or was it because they saw a demand for a product and created something to meet that demand. The latter is preferable. Look into their business plan and the goals of the company. Does it seem legitimate or does it

seem like a get rich quick scheme? Number three, make sure the product that is being sold is a good product. Research how and where it's made. Look at real success stories. Make sure you like the product and believe in the products. Make sure other people like the product and that there's a demand for the product. If you believe in the product, if you see a demand for the product, then that is a good thing. If you don't believe in the product, if you think it's overhyped, then trying to sell it to make money is going to be neither fruitful nor honest. It's not going to be a fulfilling or a good job for you. Number four, make sure sharing about your business does not replace sharing the gospel. That girl in the checkout line needs Jesus.

more than she needs a new protein shake. And it's not wrong to talk to her about the thing that you are selling. Just ensure that you aren't replacing the message of your business with the message, or that you are not replacing the message of Christ with the message of your business. Number five, make sure that you don't buy

into the culture or theology your MLM may be selling. It may not be wrong to be a part of an MLM that disagrees or not. with your theology or ideology since most people work for companies where the people in charge don't align exactly with what they believe perfectly. But make sure that you don't get sucked in. Keep your eyes on Christ. Keep your focus on the word. You can glorify him by doing this job excellently and with integrity. But God's goal for your life is not to be independently wealthy necessarily. It is to be dependently holy. And that might include,

wealth, but it also might not. You need to keep in mind that the MLN that you are a part of isn't a special organization with special divine favor from God. It might be a great organization and the mission and the product might be awesome and it might be set apart from other missions and products, but it's not this special organization with special divine favor from God. If that is an idea that is constantly being pushed on you or if you ever feel like you are being encouraged to make an idol of this business, an idol of this product, an idol of reaching the next level or fulfilling the next role, whatever it is, then you need to pray about this and you need to see if you might be in a quasi-cult and it's probably time for you to

head on out and God will provide for you and be with you as you make what is a tough transition. Again, that's not all MLMs by any means. I'm saying if you are in one and you assess that it is pushing you into ungodly realms of thinking an ungodly idolatrous lifestyle, then you really need to assess whether or not you need to be a part of that MLM. Number six, this is the last one. Make sure that you do not allow your MLM to ruin or replace relationships. I understand that in order for you to make money in an MLM, you got a hot.

hustle, ABC, always be closing, but your friendships matter more. That doesn't mean that you can't sell to your friends. That doesn't mean that you can't recruit strangers, but don't replace or ruin relationships with recruitment. Only sell to people who you really think would like your product and benefit from your product to only recruit people you actually think are interested. So, in conclusion on this topic, I am. all for entrepreneurship, but how the Christian does entrepreneurship and how the Christian does sales

and particularly MLMs should be different than how the rest of the world does it. I hope that kind of satiated both sides of this issue. I know that this is a very hot topic. I understand that this is a very sensitive subject because for a lot of you, this is your livelihood or you're on the other end of this and you've been really hurt by people who have consistently tried to sell you something rather than be your friend or show any real care or compassion. There are certainly extremes to this and there are two sides of this story but the fact is MLMs are not inherently bad or inherently deceptive but they easily can be. So you can be a part of an MLM and honor the Lord with your work but it is very possible as it is with a lot of jobs but probably especially

MLMs to wade into deception and superficial relationships just to make a sale. So it can be a little bit tricky, but I certainly am not condemning MLMs as a whole. I think it is certainly possible to do it in a way that is glorifying to the Lord. And look, if it's not for you, if you're not an MLM person, if like the whole thing, the whole idea of just selling to people, selling to your friends and trying to make, you know, money off of the relationships that you have, if that's not for you. then you don't have to be a part of it. I don't think that it's right either to slander everyone who is in an MLM or to generalize all MLMs as being fake,

as being deceptive, as being pyramid schemes, because that's just not factual or true. MLMs have provided for a lot of people an honest way to make money by selling something that they really believe in, and because they sell something that they really believe in, they are able to recruit people who also want to sell something that they really believe in. And it has allowed people to pay bills that maybe they struggled paying before. It's allowed them to have some kind of financial independence, some kind of cushion,

maybe their husband, you know, lost his job, especially right now. Anything that has to do with direct sales and recruitment can be very helpful for those who are facing unemployment in this pandemic. So I also think it's important for the side who doesn't like MLMs for you to be sensitive as well and realize that this can be an honest way for people to make money. And just because someone is selling something doesn't mean that they are inherently bad or deceptive or manipulative, if that makes sense. I hope it does. So on Monday, we will be talking about another controversial topic. I know we're kind of taking a break from like coronavirus and news, even though I have a lot of news that I want to talk about. The things that you guys typically ask me about are,

things like this and you guys are the executive producers of my show. And I don't know if I've ever told you that before, but that's something I say a lot behind the scenes and think a lot that my audience is the executive producer of my show. I talk about the things that you guys ask me to talk about, not necessarily how you guys want me to talk about them, although I think I do, but I'm saying I don't, you guys don't dictate the things that I actually say, but you dictate the subjects that I talk about. You've been asking me to talk about MLMs, but you've also been asked, me if I can talk about in vitro fertilization and birth control. And that is what we are going to talk about on Monday. So as much as I have to say when it comes to politics and things like that

and all the things that are going on in the news, because I really do, you guys have asked me to address these subjects and I want to make sure that I meet the demands of my wonderful and smart executive producers. So on Monday, it's Theology Monday, but we are, are going to be talking about, I guess, kind of a non-theological subject, although so many things really are theological without being a part of the actual Bible. But we are going to be talking about IVF and birth control from a biblical perspective. There was a study that came out a couple days ago, a news report that was circulating that said that a U.S. birth rates are lower than they have ever been an all-time low. So I think this conversation is especially pertinent.

I do want to remind you guys that my book, you're not enough and that's okay. Escaping the toxic culture of self-love is available for pre-order on Amazon. I would love if you guys pre-ordered. And if you do, if you pre-order my book, then you can send your proof of purchase. I just forgot the email. You can send your proof of purchase to an email address that I will post on Instagram and that is posted. It is actually posted on Instagram

on a previous post that I did, but you can send your proof of purchase to this email address and you will get an excerpt of my book before the book actually comes out. It comes out August 11th, but if you send this proof of purchase, after I find it, I'll put it in the description

in this podcast. How about that? You can send the receipt there and then you can get a sneak peek of the book. But we've got a lot of fun stuff coming down the pipeline with the book. Like just a lot of resources, a lot of material. There's going to be an opportunity for you guys to hear discussion questions coming from me

if you join the Women's Book Club on Facebook or on Instagram. So I'm just so excited. And it's going to be at a time in August when things are hopefully totally open. And I'm going to be able to travel and talk about the book. And this has just been such a wonderful labor of love to me. and I'm so excited for you guys to finally have it in your hand. So thank you for to all of you also who have already pre-ordered the book. That just means, it means so much to me. I always say that I have the best audience and the smartest audience ever. And I truly do. If you haven't

subscribed to my YouTube channel yet, please do that. That would mean a lot to me. It's Ali Beth Stucky. If you love this podcast, please feel free to leave me five stars on iTunes. That helps me out a lot. Also, for those of you who have listened to the very last second of this podcast, then you will know something that all of the people that dipped out two minutes ago don't, but we have a new set for Relatable. So a brand new, beautiful set that is so on brand with Relatable. You guys are going to love it. And I'm going to be in that set starting next week. So starting next Wednesday, these episodes are going to sound and look so wonderful. I am so excited. So you'll want to subscribe to YouTube because then you'll be able to see my new set.

And I just can't wait. Okay, thank you so much for listening. I hope everyone has a wonderful weekend. I hope you're in the state where things are opening back up a little bit. And you can have some freedom and enjoy this first bit of summer with your family. Love you guys. I will see you guys here on Monday. Hey, this is Steve Deast.

If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God. God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular.

This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch the Steve Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Thank you.