Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 257 | Leaving the Prosperity Gospel Behind and the Deconversion of Christians | Guest: Costi Hinn

Episode Date: June 1, 2020

Costi Hinn (Benny Hinn's nephew) discusses his family life deep within the prosperity gospel and his exodus from it. Also, what does it mean when fellow Christians "deconvert"? Costi weighs in on the Hawk Nelson lead singer's recent denial of his faith. Costi's Links: YOUTUBE: Redeemer Bible Church IG, FB, TW: @costiwhinn BLOG: forthegospel.org BOOK: https://www.christianbook.com/greed-gospel-truth-overwhelms-built-lies/costi-hinn/9780310355274/pd/355274 Today's Sponsors: The Classical Learning Test is shorter than the SAT and ACT and students now take it from the comfort of their home through remote proctoring technology. To register for the June 20th official college entrance exam visit https://www.cltexam.com/. Protect yourself with ExpressVPN. Go to https://www.expressvpn.com/allie & get 3 months FREE on a 1-yr package!

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hey, guys, happy Monday. Welcome to Relatable. I hope you all had a good weekend. I am so excited about today's conversation. I am going to be talking to Kosti Hinn. He is a pastor in Arizona. He is also the author of the book, God, Greed, and the Prosperity Gospel. He is the nephew. of Benny Hen, who is a very famous and has been a very famous for a long time prosperity preacher. Costi grew up around all of that. You're going to hear his testimony, and we're also going to talk about the prosperity gospel. We're going to talk a little bit about this trend of deconversion that we talked about some on Friday,

and I'm so excited about that. Let me play you a little clip of Benny Hen, just so you can kind of have some context for how Costi Han our guest today grew up. You may not understand this. I don't either. I don't either. But when the Lord talks to me, I obey him. It's just that simple. There's nothing more to it. Father, in Jesus' name, heal those people tonight. Amen, heal those people tonight, Lord. She's getting it. Lady, can you hear me? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? So that is, that is Binney Hen. That is the theology that surrounded Costihan and that kind of characterized his life growing up.

And so this is going to be a really awesome conversation. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos.

If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Okay, without further ado, here is my friend Costi Hint. Kosti, thank you so much for joining me. Good to be with you, Allie. Thanks for having me. So for those who don't know, will you tell them who you are and what you do? Yes.

My name is Kosti Hinn. I am a pastor at a church in Gilbert, Arizona now. And then before this, we just moved here last summer. Perfect time to move to Arizona when it's 109 in the summer. Perfect. We moved from Orange County. I was pastoring in a church there in the Irvine, California area. And so that's where we are now.

And then I'm a dad and a husband. So we've got four kids, a new baby, and I've got an amazing wife, who is a great teammate in life and ministry. Four kids, five and under. So you're not busy. You're not busy at all. You have lots of free time, I'm sure. Yeah, not at all.

I mean, I go from morning to night and do whatever I want. Yeah, yeah. So you have a very interesting testimony, and I would like you to start. by telling us kind of how your faith journey started. What was your upbringing like? Yeah, so I grew up in the prosperity gospel and the Word of Faith movement and in the center of it because of who my family is and some of my family members. So my dad's a pastor.

So I grew up a pastor's kid. And then my uncle is more kind of well known in those circles. His name is Benny. So we're the Hinn family. So Benny Hinn. And I grew up around the ministry. And then also because my dad, and him were so close and they worked together a lot. I grew up riding on the coattails of it as a young

man and then eventually worked with my uncle, worked in that whole, that world, believed it, taught it, lived it. And so life, very early teenage years, younger years, again, was riding on the coattails of my older family members who were sort of the generals, if you will, the patriarchs of the family. And in a Middle Eastern family, really traditional, you name your firstborn son after your father, so I'm named after my grandfather, and then I'm the oldest Kosti in the family. So there's sort of this aura, supposed to be some aura or like anointing on my life that I'm the first in the next generation, so I'm going to take the mantle, if you will, sort of like Elijah and Elisha. And then I'm going to take the ministry and the whole whatever, the family name and the healing

power of God to the next level, to the next generation. The only problem was that didn't actually happen over the years throughout different moments in my life, I begin to question things. And then I would look at the Bible. I'd look at what we taught. And those things didn't match. I was always afraid to question because we were taught, touch not the Lord's anointed. You don't ever speak against the man of God. You don't even question.

You just follow and you are silent about it. So in that regard, I never said anything, but I had a lot of thoughts. And then the Lord just put these people in my life that asked questions. They loved me enough to tell me the hard truth. They didn't tiptoe around me. And that was I had a college coach. I played baseball at Dallas Baptist University. And he was instrumental in my life, telling me about the sovereignty of God and the gospel and truth.

And then my now wife, who at the time was my girlfriend and wasn't really getting it. And by getting it, I mean, my family wanted her to speak in tongues and to have to be spirit-filled. And she had to fall and kind of fall at the feet, so to speak, of the big general. in the family. That wasn't working. And then I eventually had a pastor in my life who came alongside me and disciples me. So I went from flying on a Gulfstream jet, staying in the nicest hotels in the world. In Dubai, the Bursaal Arab, the hotel that's shaped like a big sale. We stayed there in the Royal Suite, 25K U.S. at night. Like that was normal for me. That was just life. And, you know, you go to London and stay at the Lansborough and you go to Ritz, the Ritz in Paris. And we just kind of

lived like LeBron, like rock stars. And yet it was all on donations. It was all supposed to be sort of the blessed life or your best life now, Osteen style. And that was the results of ministry. And then persecution, like the Apostle Paul and many other New Testament writers say that Christians are going to endure, for us was, oh man, you know, NBC did a piece on us or Inside Edition is investigating us. Or that Baptist guy down the street said, we're false teachers. look at the devil coming against us. Look at the way he's trying to undermine our ministry and distract us.

Man, we're going to go harder than ever. We're going to get after this. We are anointed. This is just the devil trying to slow us down. And so that was the way I viewed the whole world. So if you were a Baptist, I'd say you were in the dead church and we had the real power. And if you were a Lutheran, I'd say, like, you don't even have it. You're just off the rails.

That's the way we viewed things. And so very elitist, very wealthy, very powerful. servants working for us. You know, there are, there's feather dusters involved that would, you know, dust off the bentleys and the benses before we would drive out. I mean, just, I can tell you funny stories. But that life, sort of Kardashian style, was our life in ministry. And then God just absolutely obliterated in a good way.

My thoughts, my, my heart, my emotions, my mindset, and transformed my life and my understanding of the gospel. and I got really saved. Right. Were there moments before college when you had those mentors that came into your life and really influenced you? Were there moments growing up where, even for just a second, you said, hang on, this doesn't feel right or this doesn't seem right or hang on, what does this Bible passage say?

Or was it really that you were just totally blinded by it all and completely inundated with this lifestyle up until someone kind of metaphorically shook you by the shoulders and said, here's the true gospel. Yeah, great question. So it's a both end. Primarily what you just said, living it, enjoying it, but then pockets of what you just described. Moments where, gosh, a little girl didn't get healed. And I'm just losing it after the service. And I'm crying. And we know that people don't get healed. And we would say, hey, sometimes things happen. So it wasn't that she didn't get healed, but now my whole theology changed. It was that we had guaranteed that if the family or if an individual or if people, whatever, gave enough money or had

enough faith, that healing was guaranteed. So I saw wealthy people write checks for massive amounts, six-figure amounts, but then their loved one didn't get healed. And I'd go, God, what in the world? We said they were going to get healed if they sowed a seed. They sowed the seed. We taught it's a hundredfold blessing. You're going to have what you gave and reap what you sow. Where is it? And then I'm seeing brokenness.

And so those moments, they would literally shake me to my core. And I would think, what's going on? But then I've often said this before to my shame and my regret. When you see a lot of that stuff over the years, you begin to grow numb. and a bit hard. But also, even if it does break you once in a while, it is really, really easy to forget the brokenness that is going on in the ministry and around and the lies. When you sit your behind on the leather on a Gulfstream jet and the host, our Italian chef comes out,

we literally had an Italian guy who made us whatever we wanted. It was brilliant. And he makes you your favorite meal. You don't even ask. He puts your food down for you. You recline, you put a movie on. I mean, just life on a Gulfstream. It's so easy then to justify it and say, you know, well, I don't have all the answers.

And, you know, God is sovereign. You know, he's in control here. And now all of a sudden, all those doctrines that you kind of shove to the side, they really help you justify things. And you go, he's sovereign. I'm not God. I'm just the mediator here. He's the one doing the healing. But meanwhile, four hours prior, you were guaranteed.

guaranteeing Jesus is going to show up, heal everybody if they give their best offering. Well, they did. You kind of filled the coffers and now we're out. So that, it weighs on the conscience. And I'm not saying I was perfect. I'm not virtue signaling and acting like, oh, I'm so holy. It's just a simple reality. When you're a young guy, and God starts working in your heart, you don't want to act like

a scam artist anymore. You just don't. Right. Was there a sense of, well, God wouldn't give us these materials. material blessings if we weren't doing something right. Did you kind of see or the people around you see the blessings that it seemed like God was giving you guys as an affirmation of the validity of your ministry? Yes, 100%. That's how a lot of the system is built or the system of affirmation. Imagine I get up and I look at a whole bunch of people and it doesn't matter if they're rich,

poor, if they're in the third world, the first world, the greatest, both in a good way and a negative way, the greatest tool for manipulation that you can use or, let's say, influence when it's used well, is to say, look at my life or look at what I'm experiencing. If you go to a restaurant and you go, this food was amazing, you've got to go there. What do people do? They'll go to the restaurant. If you vouch for it, well, imagine then showing them something, they say, that looks amazing. You show them a picture of your food. This is why everyone Instagrams their meals now. And like every meal, they're like, look what I'm eating. And that's great. Okay. Deal. But then imagine going on a stage and saying, look at my life. You know, I live in one of the nicest neighborhoods in all of Orange County.

I fly on a private plane. Oh, yeah, I drive the nicest cars. Look at my suit. This is a $10,000 custom suit. Do you know why God is blessing me with all this? Because I give. I'm a giver. Do you know why I'm healthy? Do you know why my children serve the Lord? Do you know why we have the presence of God in our home every day? Do you know why the Lord has given me a worldwide ministry? Because you reap what you sow. I sowed. faithfulness. I follow God's economy and God's order. And then I receive God's blessings. How many of you want that? Raise your hands right now. The whole place raises their hands. And then you say, if you want that anointing, I want to give it to you. Get down here, bring your best offering. And God is going to do. do it. And then you sing it choir and you have the music go and the band plays and everyone starts feeling the emotions. They run forward. They pack the offering envelopes. They write their credit card number. And you just made yourself four or 500K right there by using your life. You get all the money. How easy is it then to go to the next stadium or convention center or the third world? You just made half a mill and now go again and do it. Look at my life. You're just selling

constantly you can do it too, which last point I'll make on that. You know how celebrities, like they go to the award shows, the Grammys or whatever, and ushers Taylor Swift? You can do it if you just believe. And then all the little girls like, oh, I'm going to be the next Taylor Swift. They're not. Like literally 0.000000, one of you are going to be famous or even good at singing probably. Right.

Right. To get a deal. And but they tell everyone, if you just believe it, you can do it. And, you know, to kind of turn it on us, I don't care if you think you're the best next alley. Stucky or you're going to be like Alice and you tell everyone, if you just believe you could have what I have, probably not. They're going to have to be smart. The Lord's going to have to open doors.

They're going to have to know their politics, their Bible. Also, some really good opportunities. Then they're going to have the factors are endless. So side note on that is, you know, we're just doing the same thing, getting up and make a bunch of people feel like they could have what we have so that they what? So that they give. Now in the celebrity world and in our world,

we might say work hard, keep at it, and we're just trying to encourage, right? There's a difference between encouragement and a manipulation. But we take that concept and we use it to make a ton of money and get people to do what we want so they could have what we have. Now, was there a lot of anger about your conversion? You're coming into true Christianity when it happened if your family was inundated in this stuff for a long time. And it sounds like your entire family was and probably really,

believed it and had invested so much time, energy, and resources into this, what was the reaction like when you said, you know, that stuff's not true and I'm going to go this way? Yeah, multiple family members call me and cheer it on. And they'll remain nameless for now, but they came kind of came out of hiding and said, look, we're not pastors, we're not, we're just Christians. We talk about this stuff internally. But as a pastor, we're so glad that you're going to, you know, speak the truth and then refute error, which is what pastors have to do. You can't just sit around and kind of tell everyone, make everyone feel good and act like, oh, we're all, you know, together in this universalism and, oh, we're all going to get

there anyway. Don't talk about anyone. You know, Paul, all over the New Testament, Romans 16, verse 17 and 18, Ephesians 511, exposed deeds of darkness, mark false teachers. Like, to stay silent is literally just passive agreement. You're just, you're complicit in some of these issues, because you're not saying anything or doing your job as a pastor. So they come out and they go, thank God, like go, go, go, so to speak. And so those were encouraging moment. Other family, other side of the spectrum, very, very strong responses. I was threatened spiritually and physically.

And then at one point, one of my other uncles called me and said, this is out of your jurisdiction. I said, well, what do you mean? He said, this is apostolic. And what he meant was he's an apostle and I'm just a pastor. So pastors don't deal with it. Apostles do. So he is going to deal with it. And I said, well, you're not dealing with it.

So we had a big, long conversation. He ended up agreeing with. He said everything you're saying is true and right. But it's out of your jurisdiction. And I thought, well, then, you know, apostle, you deal with it. Just somebody confront. And so we had talked behind closed doors as a family. My grandmother before she passed away for actually decades.

is not an exaggeration. Used to say in her broken Arabic, you know, Benny, this man, no holy spirit. You know, we're Middle Eastern. They all speak Arabic. She'd go, Benny, this man, no holy spirit. This woman, no good, no good. She used to get upset and tell them to stop doing certain things,

you know, family dinners or whatever. And then there'd be a little, you know, kind of debate and whatnot. And so as a family for years, we had just internally understood some things needed to stop. Right. The thing is not everyone in the next generation or even around became a pastor and then decided to do anything about it. And so when I got saved and when I got disciples, I started seeing passages that made me really, to be honest, uncomfortable but also emboldened. And I thought, Jesus, you demand through your word that pastors get on the front lines and stop trying to be politicians or diplomats and statesmen and act all like we're going to please everyone. start doing the job.

Gone are the days when people used to hate preachers. And even other men have quoted other men like Richard Baxter and Lawson has said this before, Dr. Steve Lawson. They'll say the problem with preachers today is nobody wants to kill them anymore. They're not saying the hard truth that they're supposed to say. And you think John the Baptist lost his head for it, Paul lost his head for it, Jesus died for it, the disciples over and over, you know, Stephen, the first martyr of the church. So that was happening.

Anyway, I just rabbit trailed on what pastors are supposed to do, but they were upset. And then in the middle, there were, and there still are these great moments of tension where, for example, I had some family members come over one time to our little dingy apartment when we first got married. And we left everything and it was like, just, we thought it was so cool to be on our own. We're like, we're going to serve Jesus and let everything go and to live as Christ. And we have everything in him. And then you realize when people come over who are really rich and they park their bends outside

your dingy apartment and people are like doing drugs across the way at the motel. You're like, oh yeah, maybe we're not living the high. This was our, you love our little apartment. So they come over and I opened my Bible and I said, okay, 1st Timothy 3, let's go there. So I took the two individuals to 1st Timothy 3 and I just began walking through verses 1 through 7, the qualifications of a pastor and elder, an overseer in the church. And then I went a little cage stage because I did this imperfectly. some of the lessons I've learned are not because I'm wise.

It's because I was foolish and I made some mistakes and then learned. And I started listing, you know, temperate, prudent, we're not that. Free from the love of money. We're not that. We love money. I mean, this is what we do. In fact, our CEO or COO or different financial advisors would call us on the road sometimes, call my uncle and different people and say, at the next services, you need to fundraise.

Because you guys are overspending. I mean, there were, we did. is to make money, period. Jesus was just a means to an end, which shipwrecked so many people's faith in our family because when you view God that way as a magic genie, you don't actually know them. When you view the church and the Bible and all of that as a means to an end, you actually get kind of tired of it because you need a break, which is why many times we didn't even go to church.

We traveled the world, and on Sunday, if we would ever said, like, let's go to church. like church please we we are the church like we we do church we give them we give church we're not going to church and so that wrestling match began with family members and some of them i'm thankful ended well i've got a pretty good relationship with my mom and dad we've great conversations um love my my sisters dearly and some of our in-laws and people we have very good conversations now but in the beginning, things exploded. And so we had to navigate those waters and that just goes to the territory. Yeah.

Okay. I've got a few more questions for you. Okay, Kosti. So we were talking about your family members and how some of their relationships are still really good. Now, we heard, I remember hearing or seeing a video maybe about a year ago that Benihin actually said, you know, a lot of the stuff that I've been doing in the past, I don't believe anymore.

Was that a legitimate conversion? Was that repentance? Or what was the after effect of that video? Yeah, based on, if we let the Bible be the lens through which we look at the situation, I would say it was remorse, not repentance. And here's why. Let me back that up. The statement was that he's no longer going to use money and attach it to miracles.

So I'm not going to say, give a $1,000 seed or give this. He said, the Holy Spirit is kind of fed. up with it. And I remember thinking, okay, I love that. Like, way to go Uncle Benny, way to say it. But then I thought, well, the Holy Spirit's been fed up with it. So when, you know, and that's great, because we all have a moment where we say that I think God's fed up with this. And what we're really saying is I'm coming to an understanding that God doesn't approve of this. And that's great. But it was sort of shock and awe. And then after that, just being in the family and in conversations, imagine for a moment that I'm a little, I'm just a little guy, right? I'm a little minion.

Costi Hinn, getting saved and speaking out against the prosperity gospel is nothing. It's the easiest thing to push aside and go, oh, he's just bitter at his uncle, or he's trading on the family name, or he's just this. You can make up whatever storyline you want about me, and it's easy. I'm just a nephew, and it's true. I am. I'm a local pastor, and I happen to be a hen, and so it gets a little attention, and people want to talk about the subject. But here's the deal. I cost them very little. My uncle says what he said, and he was bombarded with phone calls from big players because he's a cash cow. He is a cash cow for them. If he starts saying what he said and he keeps taking that to its logical conclusion, which means you have to start dealing with fake healings, false prophecy, and all the other things that go along with the little seed faith offering that you would promote, well, he'll bring a whole system down. And that's what I'm praying for. And here's the deal, Ali, you know this and I do as well. There is a huge difference between remorse and repentance.

Remorse was like Judas. He knew he blew it. He knew he sold out Jesus and he was sorry and he was scared. He goes and hangs himself, tries to get the money back, throws it at the feet of the high priests that had him betrayed Jesus. And then they go, they're like, well, this is blood money. We can't do it. I mean, it's all remorse.

I want to get off the hook because I got busted. And then there's little Zechias. You remember, remember Zach? He goes up in a tree and he's just trying to see Jesus. Jesus like, I'm coming to your house today. The Pharisees are all bothered. Remember Zakias? He don't even care what anyone thinks anymore.

He's trying to pay people back. I doubt, you know, my uncle couldn't even pay everyone back if he tried, but it's the heart, right? Jesus doesn't want our works and oh, look, you paid everyone back and every nickel and dime. He wants the heart. Zakias didn't care anymore. He just wanted to follow Jesus. Paul, the apostle. When he changed, it was like, they were so nervous going, here's the time.

dude who was persecuting the church. We're not sure about him. That's how radical the conversion. So right now as it stands, not on a personal level at all, it's nothing personal. I love my uncle dearly. It's remorse, not repentance. I would say that to anybody in the church, anyone at our church who came asking questions. It's great that he said he won't give numbers anymore, associate them with miracles and all that. And I love, I'm against the poverty gospel and I'm not saying God can't bless people. So when he says, you know, I'm still for prosperity. You know, great. The wealthy people in the world are a blessing to the gospel. Many of them fund gospel work. And so wealth is a responsibility. It's not a sin. And all that's good and well. But repentance is

repentance of sin, saying, I've sinned. I've sinned against the Lord. You know, Psalm 51, where David just unloads. Here's what I've done. And I want that, that's repentance. Metanoia is the greener. Change of mind, 180, I was going south, now I'm going north. That hasn't happened yet. So keep him in prayer. And people need to stay discerning. Don't be so skeptical and aggressive with everyone. But be discerning and use wisdom. That would be my encouragement on that topic. And can you give some practical tips for people who maybe they're listening to this and they are realizing that they've believed in the prosperity gospel without knowing it? Or maybe they're wondering, hang on a second. I think my church might be perpetuating the prosperity gospel, but I'm not sure.

Can you tell people how to discern that, how to discern whether or not they're under a pastor who is preaching this, or whether they've just been taking in teachings that have been propagating the prosperity gospel? Excellent question. You're looking for transactional language when it comes to God, you know, a give to get God. If you do this, God's going to. Okay, fill in that blank. You're at a prosperity gospel church or a prosperity light, kind of like Diet Coke, where you can't really pin it because they're not heretics, but they're really feeding the system and going, yeah. And another one, always, always happy, always good news. God always wants to bless you. No theology of suffering.

And that as well is prosperity gospel light. The truth is in Philippians 1 there at the end, versus 28 and 29, Paul tells the church at Philippi, it's been granted to you the privilege. to suffer. Romans 5 speaks to the shaping that's happening to our character and the hope that it's producing and the endurance that it's producing. James 1 versus 2 through 4 as well. Consider it all joy when you encounter various trials. The testing of your faith is producing endurance. So you want to hear a theology of suffering. If they're avoiding that, you're probably at a prosperity church or a prosperity light church. Last few, I'll give you. Listen for terms. One of the biggest ones, breakthrough or you know leaning into what God has for you okay those are not bad things to say

breakthrough and you know what God has for you then you want to know okay what is that is the breakthrough freedom from sin freedom from addiction freedom from bondage and new life in Christ freedom in him is he the treasure is the leaning into what God has for you a greater purpose a greater life because you have Jesus or is that now a new spin another spin on John 1010 the abundant life. And it's, hey, you know, all that God has for you, he don't want you as a lower level manager. He's got big things for you. He wants to promote you. Does he? Actually, some people, God wants to use them in incredible ways, right where they are. And that's okay, too. So we want to listen for that. Is it breakthrough like, hey, I sowed this seed or I did what you

told me. I had enough faith. And then $10,000 showed up in the mail. It's a money miracle. And listen, God does providentially provide. There's some really neat stories. But like so many things that God has designed and even he does that are beautiful and supernatural, what does the devil do? He always wants to twist them and ruin him, steal, kill, and destroy. It's the same thing with sexuality, right? God gave us marriage and the beauty of sexuality and men and women and all of that, the beautiful design.

And what does the devil do? Let me mess with gender. Let me mess with identity. Let me mess with adultery and sex. And let me turn that on. its head so that people actually go, you know, I don't even want to get married. And millennials are like, you know, I'm going to stay single till I'm 40, build a career. I don't really wrong all that drama. Why? Because they've seen the brokenness. And it's the same thing in the church world.

There are beautiful concepts of blessing and joy and God's provision. And he heals and he does incredible things. But you don't take those and turn them into a formula. And you got to be careful. The devil's always trying to take what God is using for good and twist it, use it for evil. Does that help? Yes, definitely, and I think that it's going to help a lot of people who needed clarity about that. Now, if you're willing to talk about it, I just wanted to kind of get your take on what I saw as a kind of back and forth a little bit between Todd White, who is a pastor and you. And I didn't know everything that happened, but you were a part of a documentary called American Gospel, which is now on Netflix, which I highly encourage everyone to go watch. I have talked about it a lot of my podcasts, but it's an amazing documentary.

But there was a little bit of back and forth that I saw that maybe someone told Todd White that, hey, we would love for you to watch this documentary and he didn't want to. And you wrote a letter or something. Can you clarify that for me? Yeah. So it's it's very, it's blown up, but it was very low drama. It was so behind the scenes. It was he has a friend who they were his daughter and his daughter were at dance together. And they were good friends. The guy watched America. gospel and basically got saved. It was like, the Lord opened his eyes. I, Brandon Kimber, who made American Gospel and I, are really good friends, obviously, is involved in the documentary and all that. And he reached out and said, hey, a friend of mine, a guy reached out to me, his buddies with Todd White, got saved, wants to give him a copy of American Gospel, but ask specifically if maybe you would write a letter to Todd. It's something personal. Just share your heart.

So I'm like, yeah. So I write this letter. I remember sitting in my office. It's like doors closed, leave me alone, email off, and I'm going, okay, God, like, I get one shot here. So I just unloaded my heart and I went the love route and I was firm. Like everyone, you know, some people were like, how dare you say you love Todd White on Twitter? I'm like, yeah, like, do you love souls? Do you want, like, you want them to go to hell?

Yeah, you have the heart issue. You need to evangelize and try to reach people and then let God do the finality of judgment. But yeah, I call them out. we'll call truth truth but at the same time are the goal like paul said the goal of our instruction is love so i told i told todd in the letter like i love you i've been where you've been don't get sucked in i know it's addicting i know the high is there i know that things are building i know this is it but and i told them flat out i will literally drop everything be there for you i don't care what i lose or who says i'm crazy or what you know if pulpit and pen writes an article about me i don't care

I will be at your door. If you turn, you'll have to give up a lot. But dude, you gain Christ, you have everything. So I do the whole letter, everything that any of us would say on our like last ditch throw the rope trying to get them. So yeah, the letter and the DVD were given to him. And then I was told personally and privately that he said, no way, man, I'm going to throw these away and rip the letter.

And so I was told his response of what he said and all of that. There was some attempts at contacting him. That was the last I heard of it. And then the other day, somebody sends me a sermon. And Todd, you know, called it out and said what happened. And here's, here's, if I was, if the cameras were off and Allie, you, your husband, my wife, me, we were sitting at the table all together talking. Here's what I would tell you. And I'll tell you this on the air.

I don't care. Todd broke the cardinal rule of that world. I was in it. You never, ever mentioned an opponent. it and their resources because what you're doing is trying to keep people away from that stuff. And I don't know if Todd knows it or not, but false teachers are used by the enemy to keep sheep lost. And so whether he knows it or not, the reason that false teachers are like that is they are working out the enemy's agenda and they're not to ever let sheep go investigate because what's

going to happen, John 10, they're going to hear the shepherd's voice in the truth of the gospel. and they're going to raise their eyes and go this, they're going to drink living water and they're gone. It's over. And then in our world, what do we do when we're not talking about camps or denominations? In the world where we talk about the true gospel, we call false teachers out, what are we not afraid to do? We point them out and we tell sheep, hey, look out for the wolf.

And really? It's a wolf. How? We show them what they teach. Then we show them the Bible. And then they go, oh, that totally makes sense. I'm going to stay away from them. See, we're not afraid to, we're not insecure about pointing things out because we know we're

living in the truth it's god's word so whatever the reason i i chalk it up to the providence and sovereignty of god todd broke the rules and i i really believe this the evangelist in me is fired up so many people are going to go investigate what's todd doing in a movie what did that costy hind guys say who's brandon kimber what's going on they're going to go investigate you know what they're going to do who cares about me i don't care if they hear my story read the book whatever they're going to hear the true gospel. And then that's a moment where I believe there'll be an awakening for so many people. So that's what happened. And then I just told Todd, I love him and I'm praying for him. And I really do hope he turns into like a Saul Paul. I know some people don't like that.

And they're like, whatever, he'll never preach. Remember, the qualifications for a preacher, pastor elder are post conversion. If we all were unqualified because what we did before we're saved, nobody could be a pastor. So we do pray that Todd would get saved as I eyes are open and then boom, come back after a season of restoration and learning and growing and explode for the glory of God. Because we'll all meet Jesus one day, and that's a big deal. Absolutely. Okay, I want to talk to you about one more thing briefly, even though we're a little over time

because we said we were going to talk about it, and I know people would love to hear your take on it. There's been kind of a series of deconversions lately, it seems like, this kind of doubt-as-virtue trend that's been going on. I talked about it a little bit on Friday's episode, but from a pastor's perspective, and probably from the perspective of someone I'm just assuming has maybe seen people go down this road of all of a sudden asking these questions and saying, you know what, I just don't believe anymore.

I just kind of give up. What are your thoughts on that? And maybe what's your encouragement to people who are finding themselves on the precipice of that position? Yeah. Let's live in two worlds here. the heart of us loving people and wanting to see them saved and then still not negating the truth of God's word. Okay, we don't need to be shocked.

Here, first let's start with kind of hard truth and then let's be more tender with how we should respond. The hard truth is this. This is going to happen. Jesus shared the parable of the soils in Matthew 13. Those are not the four stages of the Christian life. Like some of us are a little hard and some of us are just baby Christians, rocky soil. Some of us are wrestling with temptation, like the thorns, and then some of us are just thriving with a good soil. No, Jesus was giving us four types of hearts. There are those who are hardened,

the devil snatches the sea, they don't even go in. There are those who appear saved, and they sprout up quick, but the bedrock is there. It's not deep. They don't have deep roots. Turns out they were never really Christians. They fall away. And then you've got people that actually grow up for years. This is what happens. That's why we're so shocked. They grew with us. They were with us. and guys like the Hawk Nelson guy and others, these deconversions, and they grow up. And then what Jesus says is the parasmus in the Greek, the temptations, riches, cares of this world,

the worries, the questions, all of it start to choke out what was growing. And then they fall away. But the good soil. So if you're not the good soil, you're actually, that's not, that wouldn't be Christian. And so Jesus said that's the way it's going to be. And so we don't need to be surprised. However, we should be, and I want you all to be, and I am too, heartbroken when those moments happen.

We're not like, oh, yeah, Jesus said it would happen, whatever, so get over it. It's not like that. It's just we don't need to be shocked. First John 2.19. John says they went out from among us. Why? Because they were never really of us. He's saying they weren't really Christians.

And there were all these people in the context of First John running around saying, oh, we're Christians. They were confessing Christ and, hey, we're good. And then they sinned and did whatever they wanted. is what is called antonomianism, right? Where they just go, whatever, it's the opposite of legalism. We can live how we want, do what we want. Jesus died, so his sin will cover it.

We're good. And John's going, no, you have to walk in love, obedience. You can't practice sin, which doesn't mean you can't sin. Practice, meaning habitual, ongoing. I'm just going to sin and do whatever I want. He said, you can't live that way in unrepentant sin and actually be a Christian. You're not one of us. So there's these people that are going to be with us for years,

and years and then end up not being a Christian. Last one, Matthew 7, verses 22, 23, Jesus says there'll even be people who come to him one day and he's going to be judging and weighing everything. And they're going to say, Lord, Lord, prophesied in your name, did miracles. I did all this great stuff in your name. And he's going to say, depart from me. I don't even know you. You who practice lawlessness. So in other words, there are going to be people that even did amazing things. And they'll say, I know you. Hey, I'm with Jesus. And he's like, the guy that's going, yeah, I don't know you. So that becomes the question, right?

You know Jesus, great. Will he know you? And so really important for us to be able to quantify what a true salvation or true conversion is, what the signs of conversion are. That's why sometimes I'll write articles, you know, the signs of conversion or the evidence of salvation. Doesn't mean that your works save you. We've all been clear on that.

But you are, so you're not saved by good works, but you're saved for good works. And so good works are the outworking of a believer and a true convert. So what happens when a guy like that goes through that, let me go more specific. When the questions come up and why they be converted is, yeah, why would God allow evil? Why is there so much murder in the Bible? What's with God in killing everyone? Why do he kill his son? Where is God and all of it?

Those are questions that break my heart because when you're a past, you have those. somebody didn't answer the bell. Exactly. Somebody didn't answer questions. Somebody didn't say, hold on, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's go to Isaiah 55, son. God said, my ways are above your ways. My thoughts are above your thoughts.

You know, let's go visit Job. Let's go visit our friend Job for a little while. And let's go to Job 38, 39, 40, all the way. And then let's look at him. He questioned God. It's okay to question. Remember when he pushed a little too far, and God says, oh, Job, I'm sorry.

You who put the oceans where they are and set down. You who put the stars in the sky. My bad, Job. tell me, tell me what it's supposed to be, son. Let's go, and then let's put ourselves in our place, and let's go to Romans 828. He causes all things to work together for good. That means the good, the bad, and the ugly. Let's face suffering, and then realize God is God.

And if he was a God that we could create and all fully understand, you know, he wouldn't be God. He would just be something we created. He is above us and outside of us. And so really important to understand who God is and what a real Christian is, and what who the real Jesus was. And I, here's my last exhortation. I know I'm soapbox and I'm preaching because it stuff fires me up because souls are on the line. This is why, Ali, I think you and I, this is why all of us are so up in arms over biblical literacy, faithfulness to the word, and then faithfulness in our churches. Because for 30 or 40 years, the church entertained us. They played us music. They had smoke machines

and laser lights and nothing wrong with cool productions. Don't get me wrong. But, where the youth ministry was chubby bunny and camping trips to the lake like what were we doing right and we wonder why the kids grow up and go yeah i don't believe in god because you never gave them an apologetic so we need to be faithful remember our calling we're not celebrities we are shepherds we're preachers we're teachers that's what we do so my heart breaks for him but the story's not done yet but we got to remember what the bible teaches and be humble before who God is. Amen. Okay, will you tell everyone quickly about your book, where they can get your awesome book, where they can find you if you want them to follow you or anything like that?

Yeah, the book is called God Greed and the Prosperity Gospel. It is on Amazon. I think you can get like Target online. I think Walmart had it. Lifeway online. I think Lifeway's still around online. And then Christianbook.com, Barnes, kind of everywhere. If you just type it in, God, God. reading the prosperity gospel. It'll come up. And then I'm on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, all that. I love connecting with people. Pastor in Gilbert, Arizona, so you live in the valley and you don't have a church. Come visit us. We're reopening next week. And then I blog sometimes at for the gospel.org. But that's all I got, Ali. I don't know. I can't think of anything else. No, that is perfect. I highly encourage people to check out that book. It is a wonderful book.

it would be great for you. It would be great for your friends, people who are maybe in the prosperity gospel and they're questioning. I always say that a really good way, a lot of people ask me, how do I talk to my friend about this? You know, I feel like she's wrong, theologically here. I'm like, a really great and maybe soft way to do it is to present someone else's work on the subject matter and then have a conversation about it. So that person feels like they're more engaging with the material and the subject rather than just being kind of preached to. So I highly encourage people to do that with Kosti's bug. And Kosti, thank you so much for taking the time to join me.

This was a wonderful conversation, and I know it's going to edify a lot of people. Thanks, Allie. Talk to you soon. Thanks. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective. objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard

questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.