Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 259 | Why Cultural Christians Are Going Extinct | Guest: Dr. Albert Mohler

Episode Date: June 5, 2020

Dr. Albert Mohler, author of "The Gathering Storm" and president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, dives into how the modern age and secularism will continue to challenge the Christ-followers of our time. If parents aren't teaching these generations of children, then who will? Dr. Mohler also helps us think through how Christians should vote in November. Dr. Mohler's new book: https://www.thomasnelson.com/p/the-gathering-storm/ Today's Sponsor: The Classical Learning Test is shorter than the SAT and ACT and students now take it from the comfort of their home through remote proctoring technology. To register for the June 20th official college entrance exam visit https://www.cltexam.com/.

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Friday. So I am so excited about the conversation that we are having today with Dr. Albert Mueller.

He is a podcast host of a podcast that I have listened to for years now called The Briefing. He is also the president of Southern Seminary, and he has been in the Southern Baptist Convention for a very long time, very influential in Christian thinking on culture and politics. And so this is going to be a great little break from the very intense episode that we had on Wednesday. This will also be a very engaging and insightful episode for you. But we're going to take a break from some of the very controversial and intense things that we talked about on Wednesday. talk about some other very important things today about how Christians confront the moral revolution that has been going on, how we disciple our children, how we should think about voting in November and all of the very pressing issues that Christians are feeling the pressure

from. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary, grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed,

you can watch this Steve Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Now, without further ado, here is Dr. Albert Mueller. Dr. Mueller, thank you so much for joining me. I'm very glad to be with you, Allie. I think everyone listening knows who you are and what you do probably listens to your podcast, but just in case there are a few people out there who don't, could you give everyone an introduction? Well, I'm Albert Mueller. I serve as president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, and I'm an office. I'm an office. writer, speaker. And I do two podcasts, a daily podcast five days a week called The Briefing, which is a daily analysis of news and events from a Christian worldview. And that's a daily

take on what I think Christians ought to be thinking about as we engage the world around us. And then a podcast thinking in public, which is a long form conversation. It comes out fairly regularly, conversations with authors, thinkers, especially. authors, some of whom are not Christians as a way of engaging ideas and having a fruitful conversation. And so that's a part of what I do. It's a lot of fun. And it's a fast life. Yes, it is, especially with everything that's going on. I'm sure even you sometimes feel overwhelmed with just the amount of news that you have to cover and analyze every day. You just wrote a book. You've written several books, but you just wrote a book, The Gathering Storm.

Can you tell everyone why you wrote it and what it's about? Yeah, the subtitle of the book is secularism, culture, and the church. But the title has a story, and some will hear it. They'll know it already. Winston Churchill, after the Second World War, wrote his six-volume history of that war. And the first of the six volumes was entitled The Gathering Storm. And it was about the Gathering Storm clouds over Europe, in particular. in the 1930s, Churchill saw what was coming.

So many of the most respected, intellectual, aristocratic people around him and throughout Europe refused to see what was happening. He was honest about it. He was right about it, horrifyingly enough. And I just use that as a metaphor. I'm not saying that 2020 is the 1930s, but I am saying in our own time, there are significant clouds on the horizon. There's a gathering storm.

I think most Christians perceive it. They know the world's changing in fundamental ways around this. So I try to explain the most fundamental of those changes and look at it through several different lenses, from everything from sexual morality and the family to generational change and how cultures produce. But the big story here is the secularization of the culture. How did we, in just a brief analysis, you could probably talk about this for a long time, and you probably discuss it in your book. but how did we get to this place to where you talk about, for example, the sexual revolution a lot,

which is really just one example of how truth has become relative and subjective or redefining even basic biological definitions like gender? Are we here just because of the natural trajectory of the simpleness of man? Did Christians and the church have some part in this? What happened? Well, that's a brilliant question, Allie. And it has to be answered in one sense, yes, to everything you just said. That's all a part of what's taken place. But I think the big story here is, of course, the Christian understanding that human sinfulness distorts reality. And the achievement of a stable, healthy society is a very rare thing.

and has to be explained as a very rare achievement in a fallen world. But as we're looking at our society, the trajectory of Western civilization, clearly something massive happened when we entered what we might call the modern age. And a secular alternative appeared to Christianity. And it's not that everyone was a believing Christian before the modern age. It's just to say Christianity was the only available worldview. So it was the only basic intellectual structure. But the modern age brought an alternative intellectual structure.

And I think what most Christians don't understand is that that alternative is now the mainstream. It is now by far the most influential worldview. And so we're seeing a transformation of morality, reality. You just go down the list because what had been a society that operated in basic agreement with Christian moral judgments, it doesn't any longer. Right. Can you tell me what Christians having that information and knowing all the problems that we're facing, can you tell me some things that Christians can do? I mean, we know some of the basics. We know read the Word of God, pray, be involved in your church, do all the things that the Lord calls us to do. But I think people want to push back, but they don't know the balance between, you know, idolizing politics, idolizing political leaders, getting too cut up in that. actually being proactive in pushing for the things that we as Christians know are good and right and true. Yeah, you start in the right place. What Christians always need to think of first, and what we do is what we're commanded to do, even the ordinary means of grace. You know,

the preaching of the Word of God, the preaching of the gospel, evangelism, missions, the the devotions of the Christian life. All this is where we start. But, but, But we also understand that it's not by accident we are in a particular culture, a particular time. That means we have a particular responsibility. And so, you know, the first commandment, as Jesus said, is to love the Lord our God with all our heart and soul and mind. And the second commandment Jesus says liken to it, you should love your neighbors yourself.

So a part of loving neighbor means that we are politically active because politics is, by the way, just any negotiation in the social sphere. And we want that negotiation. We want laws and policies that we think will be right and will lead to human happiness and joy and flourishing and healthy families and the right moral and social outcomes. So in a Christian worldview, Allie, and you know this well, everything we're called to do in the world is non-utopian. We don't believe that politics will bring in the kingdom of Christ. Only Christ will bring in the kingdom of Christ. But between here and now, we have a responsibility.

So we seek to be good stewards of that responsibility. To answer your first question again, just to say, I think one of the most important reasons I wrote this book is to help Christian churches and Christian families. Parents say, we have to raise our children and seek to disciple Christians with a whole new, serious and sober understanding of the challenges that we as Christians are going to face. which can feel like an overwhelming challenge. I'm a new mom and even though there's so much that I know that my 11-month-old doesn't understand, I already feel a kind of urgency for her to understand the gospel. And something that I've prayed for her since I was pregnant that I just have felt continually compelled to pray for her is that she would be wise. Of all things, of course, we know that that wisdom starts with the fear of the Lord. And so that is a given. But just that she would be wise that she would be discerning. We see such a lack of wisdom, not just in the secular world, but within the church. And a lot of Christians, I know you just gave so many wonderful things

that we can do. I think they still feel overwhelmed with how to challenge specifically their Christian friends who they see latching on to worldly ideas, whether it be about marriage or whether it be about the idea that you just explained that we actually do need to bring a utopia here on earth, and that's the only way for justice and freedom and equality and all of that stuff. A lot of Christians are very frustrated not knowing how to share wisdom and to speak wisdom to their Christian friends or their Christian children who disagree with them. So what advice would you give to those people? You know, Ali, I've had some interesting thoughts of late along these lines. And by the way,

congratulations on becoming a mom. I will tell you that my wife and I think being grandparents to two little boys is just about the perfect thing. But it changes your perspective. And here's something I've been thinking about of late. A part of what I think Christians don't recognize is that we used to kind of think that we can raise our children in our families, live in our neighborhoods, you know, worship in our churches, do the things we do. And someone out there is going to do the hard work of thinking and confronting all these. issues and thinking about all these moral questions and all the rest. And they'll do that for us.

And you know, there was a time when that was kind of true. But a part of the reason I wrote this book is it's not true anymore. Now every parent has to become a moral expert. Every Christian home has to become a think tank. And one of the things I said to some parents the day is I said, you know, here's the thing. Lots of Christian parents used to think, you know, we've got our kids for 17, 18 years, then we send them to college. We got to get them ready for the battle of ideas when they go to college. And I want to say, no, that's not wrong in the past, maybe. It's wrong now.

You've got to battle for ideas amongst three-year-olds now. You know, it's all the time. And so, you know, even when you listen to the conversation going on, you know, as you watch the kids at the playground, you realize there's a battle of ideas right here. Yep, absolutely. And I think some parents feel, maybe they feel unequipped, something that I think is really simple that so many take for granted. They think that there is some magical formula to being able to teach your kids in the godly way. And I know there are so many wonderful resources about that. And you've written and talked about that a lot. But I think a lot of parents think that maybe the Bible isn't enough that having a godly pastor, you know, exegetically pretext.

reach to you and help you isn't enough that there has to be something else. But I think parents take for granted not only the wisdom that is in the Word of God, but also their own abilities that the Lord has given them to be able to specially parent and mentor their child. I think a lot of parents have maybe even been convinced that they are unequipped for that. And so they feel more comfortable kind of paunting their kids off either to their Sunday school class, which of course Sunday school can be great, or their public school or even their private school. And I've noticed that even at private schools, you can't trust that. You can't trust anyone to mentor your kids except for you. And so you're absolutely right. Yeah, you know, as you think about this,

Peter and Bridgett Berger, a team of sociologist, Peter Berger, maybe the most influential sociologist in the United States the last century. He and his wife wrote a book years ago about the family in which they said the family is being besieged by experts. And the average parent, and they wrote this back in the 1970s, they said the average parent now thinks himself or herself incompetent to parent their children. They've now got to reach out to experts. But as Berger pointed out, those experts come with an ideology. Right.

And so, you know, the experts are the parents. I just want to say that to parents. you actually are the experts. And God intended you to do this, and you can do this. Armed with the Word of God, part of a faithful gospel church, you can do this. And I just want to encourage parents. You are the experts. You are the think tank.

You are the intellectual elite in your family. And you've got to do that heavy lifting. You can do it. Yes, absolutely. And you don't have to have gone to seminary. You don't even have to know everything about the Bible. Like there are some parents that I know that are really just now starting to read the Bible because of the very problems that you're talking about. They want their kids so desperately to know God and to know good and evil and they've realized they've looked into their own hearts and said, well, I don't really know.

I'm looking at all of these issues and I don't really know. So they have started taking the Bible more seriously. And that's part of the reason why I, even in the midst of all this craziness and negativity that it seems like the world is just, you know, burning down around us. And sometimes it literally is. I see a lot of hope even for future generations because for the first time in a long time, I think that parents are, a lot of Christian parents are taking discipleship of their kids and understanding the word of God really seriously. So do you think that there is reason to hope for the generation that our children represent?

Yeah, you know, one of the things I often say, Ali, is that we're about to find out where the Christians are. Right. because the age of cultural Christianity is disappearing. People who identified as Christian because it was kind of the popular thing to do. No longer the popular thing to do. So that means the people who identify as Christians are going to be more and more really seriously minded Christians. And seriously minded Christians do. So even as parents, think of this.

One of the real points of Christian wisdom and parenting children throughout the history of the Christian church has been what's right in the Bible. you know, hide the word in their hearts. And so my wife and I were just so thrilled, our daughter and son-in-law, raising those two little boys now two and four in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. So four-year-old Benjamin just looked at us on FaceTime the other day

and recited the 23rd song, four years old. You know, it's so sweet. The little voice, you know, you anoint my head with oil. Yeah. Making sure he gets every word right. Yeah, so a little diction. And then I realize I don't even know how many of those words he fully understands,

but that word's hidden in his heart. It's the word of God. It will do a work which only the word of God can do. And I just want Christian parents to fill their children with the word of God because that's going to make more of a difference than filling them with mere arguments. Yes, and there's such an urgency to do so. You've talked about on your podcast. I've talked about on this show that there is a very powerful force that has been around for a long time, but seems maybe more powerful than ever trying to disintegrate the parent-child relationship. We hear that a lot, especially recently. It's really, you know, that communistic idea that children don't belong to their parents. They belong to the community or even belong to themselves, that there should be no traditional nuclear family because it's a part of it. patriarchal oppression and all of that nonsense. So people have to understand that in the government, cultural, social influences, there are people who don't want you to homeschool your kids,

don't want you to private school your kids, don't want you to teach your kids at all. I think that it was a Harvard professor that recently said that it's authoritarian for a parent to want to homeschool their children. So parents just have to understand that there's an urgency right now. It is. It is. It is. Oh, explain that. Explain that. The right way. What I mean is parents are to have authority. In fact, God gives parents the responsibility to teach their children. And what that Harvard professor was now infamously pushing back on is that parents would impose upon their children their own worldview.

That's actually what parents do. But that also tells us something else. And it tells us, and John Dewey, who was one of the major formative figures in public school education in this country back in the 20th century, he openly said what we need to do is to separate children from the prejudices of their parents. And he actually meant that in religious terms. He meant that theologically. He saw the religion of parents as a very dangerous thing.

And his point is you can't have secular children if religious parents keep raising their children religiously. And his concern was, you know, Orthodox Judaism in certain parts of the country and Roman Catholicism and, of course, conservative evangelical parents. but that's our responsibility. And so I just want to say, don't be scared off by the experts who say, you know, you need to give your children lots of options. I don't believe that, by the way, that's even good for children or sane.

No, no. Not at all. And as CS Lewis says, there is no neutral ground. I think some people think of public school or non-religious spaces as neutral. Well, they have, you know, just as much of a faith as we do and just as much of an ideology as we do. And it points in different moral directions. And I think parents, all people, but parents especially need to realize there is no neutral ground for you or for your children. It's either claimed or counterclaimed.

Absolutely right. You know, just in recent days, history has come out of Sesame Street, the television program. And this history has made clear what we all knew already. And that was there's very much a worldview behind Sesame Street. And, but I think a lot of parents think of Sesame Street is, hey, you know, it's just Muppets and vocabulary and math. But no, there is massive worldview, social, moral messaging, you know, that has from the very beginning come through Sesame Street. In fact, it was kind of a, an intentional effort to provide an alternative to what was seen as, you know, too quiet stayed and stereotypical Mr. Rogers' neighborhood. but, you know, it's just a reminder.

This is you say, and this is something on the briefing and in my preaching and teaching I come back to all the time. The myth of neutrality is a deadly, deadly myth. There is no neutral space on a fallen earth. Right. Okay, I want to talk to you about President Trump. So, 2016, you're not a supporter of President Trump. You wrote an op-ed about it. And now recently you have talked about possibly supporting him.

Is that correct? It is. I was answering the question about how I expect to vote in the 2020 election. And so I'll just be clear with you, Allie. I have never voted for a Democrat because in my entire adult lifetime for president, my entire adult lifetime, the Democratic and the Republican parties have been pretty split apart on big issues. And the first election in which I was capable of voting, 1980 and that decision was very clear I'd actually worked for Ronald Reagan as a

volunteer in 1976 before I was able to vote and so the big question for me was Donald Trump in 2016 and I mean this is a man who has celebrated his own immoral behavior his his his character his I mean even the way he presents himself I mean he he's often this basically dismissed any kind of traditional biblical Christian morality in that sense. And so, and I have been so involved in national debates calling for Bill Clinton to resign the presidency because of the Monica Lewinsky scandal and issues of perjury. And so I didn't feel that I could vote for Donald Trump, and I didn't.

I certainly didn't vote for Hillary Clinton. I just didn't. I reluctantly, I wanted to vote for the platform of the Republican Party, but I didn't vote reluctantly so for president. But for Donald Trump for president. But in 2020, I just honestly wanted to say when I was asked the question, I expect that I will. And so if you're asking me what's changed, what's changed is. I've come to the conclusion that that Americans

don't get to choose their presidential candidates any longer. The primary process, so in other words, it's not that all Republicans get together and say who we're going to nominate. It's a long primary process with other factors involved. But we do decide who we vote for at the end.

And it's a party platform. If you look at the Democratic Party platform in 2020 and the Republican Party platform in 2020, they're going to be in diametrically opposite worlds. And so I expect that I reluctantly didn't vote for Donald Trump in 2016. I probably reluctantly will vote for Donald Trump in 2020. Pretty sure of that. Because I think it's going to matter which party apparatus is in authority,

especially in the executive branch. And I also say that President Trump, in appointments and in so many other policies has done what he said he would do. And I think that the election of any Democrat, including Joe Biden, will mean the election of an executive branch that will undo almost everything they can. And I think with the issues of religious liberty, I mean, just in the background of this, think of the Obama administration's contraception mandate, and think of the transgender issues even this week, you know, very much in debate with the Department of Education.

I'm not any happier about President Trump as a man in the span of his lifetime and how he's chosen to live his life and even as he presents himself. But I do recognize that the presidential choice we make. And in American history, it's so often been the choice of this candidate or that candidate, the way we talk. But in reality, the way people vote, it has been really that party or this party. And I'm just being honest about that. I think when it comes to the great worldview divide in this country, neither party's perfect. And the gospel and the kingdom of Christ don't write in with any party.

But politics does matter. And I'm just trying to be a good steward of that. And as a public intellectual and leader, evangelical, I just feel the need to do that honestly. So I'm not offended by the question, Allie. I just hope to answer it faithfully. Yes. Well, you and I are on the same page. I did vote for President Trump in 2016 having a lot of the same concerns that you did,

but also a lot of the same, you know, insight that you just revealed right now, that the two platforms are so diametrically opposed and the problems at stake are so dire, that it's really what the party, what his party represents, which like you said, Republicans certainly haven't been perfect and could be a lot more courageous on the issues, but it's so hard for me to imagine doing anything or voting in any way that might make it more likely that a Democrat becomes president. However, my question is that I've personally struggled with, that I know a lot of Christians have struggled with, is when does, or if at all, does a person eclipse, a person's immorality eclipse the platform. So the Republican platform stays what it is. The Democratic platform

stays what it is. Is there anything that Donald Trump could say or do that you would say, okay, that's enough. I can't vote for him. Well, the answer to that can't be no, right? I mean, I'm not about to say there's nothing that someone could do. But I've learned at this point in my life, and I'm 60, so I'll just say I'm in the seventh decade of my life, a bit of wisdom that I think I've learned is I can't really contemplate many hypotheticals anymore. I've got to deal with the actuals. And I think, by the way, that's a good Christian affirmation. That's the tradition known as Christian realism. I could think of all kinds of hypotheticals, but I've got to deal with the actual. So in any given situation where I have to make a moral decision, I've got to deal with the alternatives

presented to me. And so you ask a hypothetical question, and it's tempting to answer it. But anything, so you could say, you know, the president made a statement when he was a candidate saying, I could shoot someone and my, you know, my base would still support me. I don't think that's true, by the way. However, I don't think that's, I don't think that's the right place to draw the line. So, I mean, even just talking to you now, I think hypotheticals aren't helpful anymore, but the actuals are. And this is where a part of the Christian political calculus in a fallen world has to be, I've got two very imperfect options here, but both will have consequences. I've got to live with my decision based upon those consequences. And I really think,

as part of the reason why I wrote this book, The Gathering Storm, Alley, is because I think in 2020, we're at a hinge moment of history in which if there were to be I mean you listen to the conversation going on to the Democratic left and that's becoming the center of the Democratic Party if those policies were to be put into place

I think it would be a horrifying thing and so sometimes in politics you say this is the best thing I know to do now we will hope for a better opportunity or option later. But never perfect. And this is where some evangelicals have had too much faith in some candidates who've always

let us down. No candidates perfect. Politics is the art of the possible. Otherwise, they don't get elected. And so every single president I voted for has disappointed me in some way. But the alternative would have disappointed me a lot more. Right. And would have been a lot more probably consequential in a way that you don't agree with.

So do you think that Christians, though, and this is probably the last question or two, do you think Christians have an obligation to still, is it hypocritical, I guess is what I'm asking, for Christians to vote for Donald Trump because of the reasons that you and I both agree with, but still criticize him when we know he needs to be criticized because the rebuttal from the other side is, well, you voted for him. How could you criticize all these things you say you don't like? Well, I'm trying to do that. I've tried to do that. I'm very supportive where I can be supportive, but I'm critical where I have to be critical. Right. Just trying to be a consistent Christian making these evaluations. But I think we had to press back on this premise, Allie, because there's no one who wants to buy the entire product of any candidate.

Right. Especially after, you know, so what's interesting to see is how many people who voted for Barako Obama amongst Democrats were very dissatisfied with him at the end. In other words, politics is not a perfect business. But I also think we have to press back on the premise. So if you ask me, who should be president of the United States, I would come up with a name not identified with presidential politics. But no one asked me that.

No one would care how I answered. Because when it comes down to it, the electoral college, is going to deal with two major candidates in likelihood, one of whom is going to be president of the United States. So your decision, and when someone says that to you, your decision is not that of 330 plus million Americans, you chose Donald Trump. But rather that, the option presented to us was Donald Trump and the administration that would follow his election, or in this case, Joe Biden and the administration that would follow his election. So, yeah, I would, I understand and sympathize entirely with the question.

I feel it. But I just want to press back a little to say, that's not what you do in an election. You don't, in an election for president, you don't go in and say, here is my perfect candidate. You say, there are two names here. And obviously, there are other things you can write people in or whatever. But in terms of who's going to be elected, there are two names here. And I've got to make it a decision. based upon that. Yep, that was exactly how I felt, and I know a lot of people felt in the last

election, and that's exactly how I'm feeling probably even more so as you are going into this election, but important conversations and debates to have. I know there are a lot of faithful Christians that might, you know, slightly disagree with what you and I think about that. And as I always say on my show, I welcome them to reach out to me and let me know their perspective on that. Just to end, could you remind everyone or tell everyone where they can buy your book and any other information you would like them to have. Well, thank you. They can buy the book wherever books are sold online. And these days, that's where we're doing a lot of our business. And I hope you'll support your local Christian bookstore and your local bookstore in town. But that's not as possible

these days. So online, certainly Amazon.com and just about everywhere else books are sold, it can be found. And my podcast and the rest of what I write and speak and, and produce is found at Albert Moller. That's M-O-H-L-E-R.com and especially the podcast, the briefing, and thinking in public. Perfect. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Mueller. And thank you for everything you do and just the clarity that you give on so many of the most important issues that we're dealing with. Well, thank you, Allie. I have to tell you, this has been a particularly good conversation. I appreciate the very intelligent and careful way that you pose these questions. This is the kind of conversation you help Christians to model in order that they can have

this kind of conversation in their own church and their own home. So God bless you for that. Well, thank you so much. That means a lot to me. God bless you as well. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular.

This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.