Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 263 | Why Social Justice Can't Solve Racism | Guests: Virgil Walker & Darrell B. Harrison

Episode Date: June 15, 2020

As the culture and even some in the church seek answers within social justice, hosts of the Just Thinking Podcast, Virgil Walker and Darrell Harrison, remind us that the Gospel deals with every issue within the individual human heart. Today's Sponsors: Maybe you’ve been wondering about the best way to protect your family. Or maybe you’re thinking about starting a business, but you don’t know the best way to do it. LegalZoom makes it easy to get started online. And if you need guidance, their network of attorneys can provide advice to ensure you make the right choices. For special savings, visit LegalZoom.com code ALLIE at checkout

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Monday. So I don't usually do this on Mondays. I typically give you, you know, a straight theology episode.

But today we are going to talk to two of my good friends, the host of the Just Thinking podcast, Darrell Harris, Harrison, and. and Virgil Walker. And they have just been such wonderful biblical voices, really in so many topics and relating to the Christian life, but particularly on the things that are going on right now with the discussion surrounding race and racism. And so today they are going to bring us back to what the Word of God says and how the gospel informed how we should view everything that's going on. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted. and what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself.

On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch the Steve Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Okay, without further ado, here are my friends, Daryl Harrison and

Virgil Walker. Darrell, Virgil, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you, Allie, for having us back on. No doubt. Okay, one of you, I'll just, I'll just pick so that we're not confused about who's talking. Virgil, can you tell me who you guys are, the podcast you host, and what you do? Well, I'm Virgil Walker. I'm co-host, the Just Thinking podcast. I get the privilege of hanging out side by side with the lead host, Darrell Harrison. We host Just Thinking, it's a joy to do. We've been doing it now for coming up on two years, having just an incredible reach and success with that. And doing no small part, Allie, to you're encouraging your listeners to check us out and to listen to us on a number of different subjects. that we cover. Yes, and Darrell, can you tell everyone who you are and what you do as well? Yes, I'm Darrell Harrison, and as Virgil alluded to, I'm lead host of the Just Thinking podcast. And yeah, my day job, when I'm not hanging out with this guy getting in trouble, I serve as dean of social media here at Grace to You, which is the Bible teaching ministry of Dr. John

MacArthur out here in Valencia, California. you well thank you guys so much and thank you for your ministry the just thinking podcast i want everyone to go subscribe to that and download especially uh the latest episodes but you guys really we talk a lot about or you guys talk a lot about race racial reconciliation and these issues surrounding race but that's really just a fragment of what you guys discuss you guys talk about socialism the role of the government the assurance of salvation all kinds of things that christians are concerned with. But this last podcast episode that you did, Daryl, on George Floyd and the gospel, has been your most popular episode to date, right? A huge number of downloads. Why do you think,

why do you think that is? Yeah, that's true, Allie. The episode that we did, George Floyd and the gospel, which we released about a week and a half ago, is approaching 90,000 downloads, which would make it by far the most downloaded episode that we've done to date. And as virtual mention we've been doing the podcast for close to two years. We're coming up on our 100th episode. There's a couple reasons, though, for the George Floyd episode that's just different. Number one, that was not an episode that we planned to do. That episode is what we call a freestyle episode whereby Virgil and I just got behind the microphone with no notes. It was no scheduling, no choreographing anything. It was just me and him, two Christian brothers, getting behind the

microphone, talking about what happened with regard to the George Floyd incident in Minnesota, and looking at that and talking about it really naturally, because if anyone who's listened to the episode can sit, I did a lot of venting in that episode, primarily out of the fact that here we are covering ground that we've covered so many times on, as you alluded to, Allie, on the just thinking podcast, we've covered so much of that ground already. But by God's grace and his providence and his sovereignty, that episode continues to make an impact. in the lives of believers and unbelievers alike, because he gave us an opportunity to capture that incident

within the objective truth of Scripture and talk about it within that lens so as to eliminate any nuances, any feelings, any subjective perspectives, and basically couch that incident in what the Word of God says, which applies to every one of us equally. Amen. If you can, either one of you, Virgil, I'll go to you. Can you just kind of summarize?

You don't have to rehash everything you all talked about in the podcast, but from your perspective, can you summarize what is the objectively biblical view of what's going on right now? Yeah, we began the conversation by discussing the horrible tragedy that took place for George Floyd. One of the things that I appreciate about what we try to do on just thinking is we don't shy away from the horror of what took place. We don't run from issues, even when we deal with issues around slavery or Jim Crow. We don't cast a blind eye to what took place in those instances. And we didn't in this case either. So we began the conversation by talking about what took place and how horrified.

We both were about it, how our hearts were wrenched out of our chest as we watched this police officer put his knee in the neck of George Floyd. Then before what the culture does from that standpoint is they begin to ascribe. motivation. They began to describe things attitudeally with regard to what was the motivation behind what took place, rather than focusing on the reality of what was most tragic about it was not what motivated it, but the act in and of itself. The act in and of itself was horrific, and we need to stop pause there and think about that particular issue and be mournful about that. So we talked about that. We talked about the next step of what people do, which is they begin to attribute motivation. They begin to attribute things like,

like racism into the conversation, which don't need to be interjected, as Daryl and I discussed, regardless of what the motivation was, it doesn't make George Floyd any more or less dead. He is still dead as a result, and that should be the tragedy. We talked about him being an image bearer of God, and we should be, we should be fornful that any image bearer of God, regardless of level of melanin in the skin, would be impacted in that way. We talked about our feelings about that, but mainly we anchored the truths in scripture with regard to a biblical anthropology regarding race, a biblical thought process about sin and the role of sin in the life of believers and unbelievers alike where it applies equally

and how we as believers should view the entirety of the situation. And Darrell, why do you think it is that people are so quick to immediately judge the the heart level motivations of something that is already tragic in itself. Why are we so quick to do that and then to extrapolate that into a larger cultural moment or movement? Yeah, I think bottom line, fundamentally is because of the sin that's in our own hearts. I mean, we are as congenital sinners quick to react to things that we think we can relate to superficially.

So, for instance, with respect to what happened with Mr. George Floyd, a lot of our reaction was tied to the connection that we have with the color of his skin, matching ours, perhaps maybe a socioeconomic connection that we may have had with the experience in how Mr. George Floyd grew up, the experience that maybe some individuals have had with police officers themselves. So there are any number of reasons why we're so quick to react to situations like that. But I think, as Virgil alludes, to earlier, you know, when you talk about trying to attribute motive to something like this, in this case, right, the clarion call was that it was racism, right? So when you attach a suffix

like ism to a root word race, to a noun, when you attach a suffix to a noun, it's now a verb. It's no longer a noun anymore. But in the case of racism, when you're talking about an ism like this, you're talking about motive, right? You're talking about motive. You're talking about impetus, and that takes you automatically from a sociological sphere to a theological sphere, because when you go from a noun to a verb and you're trying to impart a motive, in this case, on behalf of the police officer, that makes it a theological question, which automatically goes to the heart, because all of our motives, for better or worse, for good or ill, originate in the heart.

And I think that is what a lot of folks are missing, and perhaps is why the episode that we did on George for the gospel is being so impactful because we've tried to take people back not just to the act, but to the attitude that led up to it, you see, and that's why we have to start the remedy situations like this. What do you think, Darrell, about the reaction that ensued? Obviously, not the genuine reaction of sadness over an image bear's life being taken, but the rioting and the looting and the now calls to. to abolish the police system, the justice system,

imprisonment altogether. It's really turned into a revolution. What do you think, I guess, just in general, about that reaction? Yeah, that reaction is just part and partial of our just missing what is the fundamental issue here, the fundamental issue. I sent a tweet out just earlier this morning,

where I made the case that injustice is an attitude before it is an act. It is an attitude before it is an act. What folks are missing here is that they're concentrating on what happened and missing the big picture of why it happened. Listen, each of us carries within us the same seed of sin that led to the perceived injustice anyway. And I say perceived because that situation is still being adjudicated. The perceived injustice, we each carry the seed within us that gives rise to situations like that. And folks are quick, we're quick to extrapolate ourselves from the situation in so much that we don't connect ourselves with the police officer, right?

We're quick to connect ourselves with the victim. When you look at this situation, theologically, we have to go back to Genesis 3, the sin of our first parents in the garden, and the fact that that sin nature now resides within each one of us. When we understand what happened with Mr. George Floyd in the context of Genesis 3, we would connect ourselves more, we're actually more relatable to the police officer than the victim. And see, what people are missing here is that the solutions that they're driving at in trying to deconstruct certain institutions and structures and rebuild them into new institutions and structures is that they don't realize that the same sinful attitudes that created those structures that they, they want to deconstructed are going to be reconstructed simply by new sinners. And they just don't realize that.

So we have to take the George Floyd incident in Minnesota all the way back to Genesis 3 if we truly want to understand the big picture of what went on there. Virgil, a lot of pastors are using this moment to not talk about sin and to not talk about the fall and the only thing that can that can soften a sinner's hard heart being the gospel. but to instead talk about exclusively racial reconciliation and even white privilege and white fragility. What do you think about evangelical pastors using this to bring up those kinds of conversations rather than gospel conversations? It's disheartening on so many levels and because of the fact that the reality is the Bible already

explains this. Daryl and I were talking the other day and really identified the fact that when you begin to walk away from biblical terminology, you walk on to the social turf of the culture. And when you do that, that is an absolutely losing battle, that you've lost the battle. And what we're watching evangelical pastors and preachers do is leave the pages of scripture for what they're seeing in the culture that's not at all helpful. Scripture is clear about this, whether it's issues of systemic racism, issues of privilege. All of these things can be identified through. through the pages of Scripture for what they are.

And the beauty of holding on the scripture is that you anchor them back into the root cause of them to begin with. Darrell mentioned Genesis 3 in the fall. When I think about issues around systemic racism, I automatically go to Romans chapter 5 verse 12. It says, therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, death through sin, and so death spread to all men. What is that if that is not systemic in nature?

Sin and death systemically impacts mankind, and as a result, we see the horrible kinds of tragedies that we do in the culture. But in an effort to be relevant, people have forgotten what it means to be righteous and stay into pages of Scripture and seek the cure that can only be found through the gospel of Jesus Christ. It seems that a lot of pastors, Christian influencers, are allowing. the world and secular activist groups define things that God has already defined. So justice, repentance, penance, holiness, righteousness, all of these things that God has a definition for. He tells us exactly what they look like. But instead of pastor saying, hey, world, you're looking for justice, you're looking for righteousness, you're looking for peace. I've got that right here in the Word of God. They're saying, oh, actually, I feel that the Bible and the gospel are not only

insufficient but a little inappropriate. And so you see a lot of pastors being a little bit embarrassed about bringing the Word of God into these conversations, but instead are just listening to people with an atheistic worldview, which means if you have an atheistic worldview, you don't believe people are made in the image of God. You don't even care about George Floyd's murder as much as you and I do because they don't believe he's an image bear. And so we have, as Christians, we have a whole other level of care and of gravity about this situation. But unfortunately, I'm seeing so many Christians being willing to be informed and influenced by the world because they have been convinced that the gospel is an insufficient and inappropriate answer.

Darrell? Yeah, let me just say this. And I really don't mean this to be condescending in any way whatsoever. But we should never assume that because someone wears the title of past, that they know what the gospel is. We should never assume that. Okay. What we're finding out is that many pastors and many professing Christians in general have no concept of what the gospel is. You see, the gospel works from the inside out. And this is what differentiates biblical gospel from the so-called social gospel. The biblical gospel works by the monogistic power of God in the heart from the inside out.

and as we obey God, then society benefits from that. However, the social justice tries to realize biblical fruit by working from the outside in. You see, and when we have pastors and church leaders partnering with the culture and emphasizing works for the sake of works, right? Scripture says that we are to do works in keeping with repentance. Okay, so the gospel inverts the approach of the world and says, no, you heart change results in the fruits that you want to see. Heart change results in justice. Changing laws, changing the defunding the police. I mean, look at this. Why do laws exist fundamentally? Laws fundamentally exist to protect us from one another. So when you look at injustice, you understand that the struggle for injustice is really a struggle with ourselves. We're trying to find unbiblical ways, worldly cultural, social ways to remedy an innate spiritual problem. And these ridiculous, absurd partnerships that many churches are making with the world and organizations like Black Lives Matter, which have no concept of the Amago Day, as you said, Allie, which is where that should begin, as Virgil alluded to, we should care with the George Floyd situation or any other. perceived situation of injustice that an image bearer of God was treated unjustly, not that a black

image bearer of God was treated unjustly. So that's where it starts. So again, the gospel has the answer, but many believers are ignorant. And by that, I mean they're unaware. They truly have no no solid concept, orthodox concept of what the gospel is and how God works his gospel in the world. Virgil, what do you think about using this moment or any moment to talk about what has been deemed racial reconciliation? Is racial reconciliation a biblical concept? No, it's absolutely a misnomer.

Darrell and I have talked about this often on our show, and I've got a chance to share this idea with someone and basically said this, races don't reconcile. hearts do right if if alie if you were going to send someone of and again the idea of race says is not biblical right scripture is absolutely clear about that acts 17 26 we know from one man comes every ethnos every nation of mankind so we're all a part of the human race so first of all the idea of race says is a misnomer so you can begin from there the other piece of the of the thought process when when you're thinking about race is reconciling. Who is the white race representative and what black race representative are they going to send someone to? And what are they going to be the terms of this reconciliation that's taking place?

It's a misnomer to confuse people and really establish a permanent victim class and a permanent oppressor class by which we guilt people into doing things that they wouldn't otherwise do, apart from what Daryl was talking about, which is true heart change. Scripture challenges us to reconcile with God. And as a result of that reconciliation with God in repentance and faith in Christ, we are then therefore reconciled with our neighbor, with our brother. And then the sin that takes place between one another is that which gets reconciled based upon a Matthew 18 picture.

I'm going to my brother who's done me wrong or who's sin to get. me and we're addressing that particular issue. That's exactly how that's supposed to work. And, Ali, if I could just add something to what Virgil just said, you know, listen, what we're talking about here in terms of reconciliation is no different than what would have to take place. If you and your husband, for example, had a disagreement, if someone would say, well, you know, you guys are husband and wife, you should get along because your husband and wife, as if to say being husband and wife should just sort of intrinsically take care of any issues that you guys might experience within your match. But no, those disagreements

and issues have to be resolved one heart toward another. You see, and I think about John Owen in his book, Indwelling Sin and Believers, he said enmity against God is diffused through the whole soul. This through the whole soul. You see, this is, so again, this is why I say injustice is an attitude before it is an action. You know, scripture teaches, right, that if we hate, if we have, have hate toward someone, that we're essentially just a murderer. We're a murderer. And so only the gospel deals with the attitudes and the motive and the impetus that results in the acts of injustice that we're seeing in the world.

What do you say, Daryl, to those who say, okay, I hear you that the gospel is the ultimate answer, but look, we've got systemic racism and we've got to, it's not enough to just, you know, love your neighbor as yourself, as God tells us to do. We've got to be anti-racist. We've got to check our white privilege. We've got to dismantle systemic racism. And that is what they would say is, you know, the manifestation of seeking justice and loving mercy, as Micah 6-8 says. And a lot of pastors are encouraging people to think that way, talk that way, and act that way as well.

What would be your response to the Christian who says that? Well, listen, the Christian who says that respectfully, anyone who wants to add to what scripture already says, doesn't understand what scripture says to begin with. You see, I think there's a misnomer out here, especially within evangelicalism, that the gospel means that the ultimate objective of the gospel is equity, is societal equity. Okay, Virgin and I did an episode on our Just Thinking podcast

on a biblical theology of the role of government. And in that episode, we had an opportunity to exposit the distinction between equal and equity. You see, in the world wants equity, but you can have equity without partiality. So someone says, well, it's not enough to love your neighbor as yourself. But you're essentially telling that Jesus got his own gospel wrong. Okay. But folks who would say that, they still, I hate to be redundant here, but I just have to keep emphasizing.

The gospel works from the inside out. You can, you can renew laws, recreate laws. You can tear down statues, so we're seeing a wave of statues coming down. again, you can do all of that. You can fix, you can, what you call fixing all the structures and institutions within a society. But at the end of the day, you're still dependent on the person obeying the law. You're still dependent on the person obeying that precept. You're still dependent on the person treating you justly. And those are instances that happen on the inside of the individual. Nothing outside the individual can influence.

that person to treat you in a manner that you're supposed to be treated as an image bearer of God. So again, all these are secondary and tertiary issues that take attention off what is what is the real issue, which is why Christ came in the beginning in the first place. This is why Christ came to regenerate our hearts, make us right with God. And as that heart change takes place, then you see the fruit of that change in society. But it's got to happen at the individual level first. It's the equivalent of the Tower of Babel, right? Man believing that they can create their own edifice to build utopia in an effort to get to God.

When the message of the gospel is that God comes to us, right, in the form of Christ and redeems mankind and saves us from ourselves, we still believe for some odd reason that. that God's methods, God's plan, God's prescription is invalid. And we're required by the hand of man to do something different than what he's prescribed. I mean, we're doing this in every area and every facet. And so it's not surprising that. And what's sad to me, Allie, is to see believers who should be laying hold to the truth operate in those kinds of ways. Virgil, you fight very hard for the abolition of abortion.

You've come on my show, and we've talked about that. It was a very popular episode. People love just the practical advice and the gospel advice that you gave people. I've heard pastors, a particular pastor say, okay, why are Christians, I guess probably you guys and me, saying, you know, just preach the gospel. It's the gospel. The gospel is the answer. And I heard this pastor say, but you don't say that. about abortion, you don't say that about sex trafficking, you go out and you do the work,

you dismantle the systems, and you try to end those things. So do you think that there is hypocrisy for people like you and me to say we want to dismantle it and stop abortion from happening, but when it comes to something like systemic racism, the gospel is the answer. Is there a difference there? Well, there's two things going on there. One is a category error. the category error to the point that Darrell was making, racism is an attitude. It's a motive, right? You can't stop what's in the heart of an individual. Abortion is an act.

It is an action of death. It is an injustice. It is a death. Now, I would also argue in a separate way, this. And it is that we're not leaving the gospel back at the door as we go to the abortion clinic. I'm bringing the gospel into conflict into that situation by being there proclaiming the truth of its message, letting the woman know that she does not have to sacrifice her child for the purpose of the sin of sexuality outside the confines of what God stated. And that the same God who produced life is able to take care of that life, given she'll walk in the right pattern of righteousness that God's designed for her.

And we provide all kinds of resources for that. So we're not breaking the law. I'm not going to tear down some abortion clinic building or lay it to fire or any of those things. I'm operating under the guise of what the law provides, but I'm bringing the gospel into conflict. But again, that's a, that's a category error with regard to an attitude and a motivation and the person who's being harmed. I completely agree. Darrell, I'm going to ask you what you might not see, you might not see it as a controversial question. but some people might think it is. Do you believe, or in your experience or study,

do you believe that systemic racism is something that exists? No, short answer, no, because listen, think about this. Nothing that is systemic occurs in a vacuum, okay? So anything, let's take for example, if you've been diagnosed with a disease that's metastasized throughout your body, that disease is now systemic throughout your body. It's now systemic. However, it wasn't, it didn't originate as systemic. It has a definitive point of origin. It has a definitive, objective cause. So anything that's systemic, we have to go back to the root origin. Why is it systemic? And I don't see enough objective empirical evidence. I emphasize objective, objective empirical evidence that there is systemic racism in America. Because if there were, then Virgil and I would be victims of that.

Because nothing, listen, nothing can be systemic rather and have anyone exempt from it. If it's systemic, that means everybody experiences it. If no one, if there's even one person that doesn't experience it, then it's not systemic. How can something be systemic and not be all inclusive of everybody? How can something be systemic, Allie, inherently systemic, yet eliminate you, yet you're being blamed for it being systemic. So it even includes you as well. So my short answer to that question is no, I'm not seeing enough empirical objective evidence that there is systemic racism or what scripture calls hate, systemic hatred of a certain populace who, who happens to have a certain shade of melanchine,

be of a certain ethnicity, I don't see that. Because by definition, it would include people like me and Virgil. And when I came to work today, the doors weren't locked for me, so I got in fine. So I've been seeing it and thinking about is,

you guys have heard the phrase, you know, the soft bigotry of low expectations. This is something that, for example, economist Thomas Soul talks about, that you lower the expectations for a certain group of people or a certain kind of people because it's typically white elite liberals who say, you know, this group has been historically oppressed, so they cannot reach this standard. And even if some do, they're the exception and not the rule and we still have to change the standards for this group of people.

We see that in things like affirmative action and different things like that. But I think that we're also seeing it in the evangelical world where I've seen white pastors, they're willing to talk about the gospel or preach the gospel to their mostly white congregants. And then when they turn around or have an interview or a conversation with a black Christian or a black non-Christian, they don't talk about the gospel. They only offer pity. They only talk about social justice. They only talk about racial issues. And it's almost like these white pastors aren't willing to hold black Christians to the same standards of holiness, forgiveness, tenderheartedness, righteousness as they are white Christians.

And I'm just not sure that it's going to fly with God. Virgil, what do you think? No, I completely agree with you. I think you're going to get in trouble for saying that, Allie. But you're used to that. So I think you'll be fine. You know, I completely agree. You see it in the media with regard to what's happening and the writing that's taken place

and that's just an expression of anger or rage and it's kind of accepted or nodded at or if it's mentioned at all, it's mentioned very lightly. where the emphasis is placed on an expression of what they're wanting to say. You're seeing that to the point you just made inside of churches. I listened to a dear pastor friend of mine this week, and I thought he gave a great sermon for his white congregants. The problem was it missed the mark. If I'm a black guy in his audience, I had nothing to repent of.

I had nothing to be concerned about. I had nothing to take to God. I was actually the victim for which every white congregate should at some point come and do something by way of penance on their behalf. And so I agree. I think it's not across the board. We're not seeing it in that way. And the gospel does that. Does it not?

I'm walking a group of folks through the book of Romans. And what does Paul do? In Romans chapter 1, verse 18, he says, the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. And then, Ali, he spends the next three chapters taking apart every single group that can be known. In chapter two, he begins to talk about the Pharisees. If they were applauding him saying something to one group, give him just a minute because he's going to come and grab the next group and the next group. Again, Darrell made this point earlier, which is the gospel is all about equal, right? It's about an equal response to everyone with regard to their sin against the Holy God.

And whenever that's parsed out in some way, shape, or form to not include a group or to overlook sin in a group, or to not acknowledge sin in that group, whatever gospel that's being preached is not the biblical gospel. And, Ellie, we did an episode on the Just Thinking podcast. It's called, we titled it One Church, One Body. One Church, One Body. Virgil will remember this episode right where we took Mr. J.D. Greer to task because J.D. Greer was speaking before a person. predominantly black audience at some event in North Carolina. Yes. And he tailored his message. He lowered his message to that audience because they were black. And we specifically took him to task in that episode.

You know, when you go back historically and you read people like Frederick Douglass, Booker T. Washington, both of whom were former slaves, both of whom were abolitionists. Matter of fact, you can read many slave narratives. and fundamentally the one thing that all slaves wanted was freedom. Now, they wanted their freedom so that they could make their own way. None of them ever asked for their standards to be lower. They never asked for partiality. They never asked for favors.

They never asked to be treated differently, even because of their oppression. They wanted to be freed from their oppression under the Imago Day, under that innate awareness, Romans 1, right, that we know that there is a God and we know the difference between right and wrong inherently. They wanted their freedom so that they could make their own way. It is absolutely, I don't even know the adjective for it, but when I see people reduce black people to what Virgil said,

a permanent class of victims is absolutely, I'm outraged, I'm righteously indignant whenever I see that. And as much as Virgil and I try not to name names in that episode, though, we had no choice but to name names. So I'm speaking to J.D. Greer right now. Stop. Stop it. That's condescending that it is not worth the legacy of thousands, if not millions of black people who gave their lives so that Virgil and I could talk objectively. about such issues, and he's embarrassing himself. You're embarrassing yourself, leaders,

when you do that. Stop doing it. It reminds me of another pastor that you guys have talked about who said that he would hire the Black 7 over the White 8, but not the Black 6 over the White 8, because that would be tokenism. But again, that's like the soft bigotry of low expectations Christian style that apparently you have in your head that a group of people is almost inherently incapable of reaching the same standards. Another group of people while you're simultaneously turning around to your white congregation and calling them the bigots and the racist when maybe they're not the ones who think that way, maybe it's you.

But I do think this kind of cultural, secular conversation that or the rhetoric that we're having about white privilege and things like that, it blinds some of these pastors to their own inherent bigotry and sin because they're checking the boxes of worldly righteousness while they checked their privilege. They've read Tonehisi Coates. They are talking about racial reconciliation. They made a video about privilege for their congregants. And so they believe that they are insulated from any kind of woke criticism, not realizing that they are actually the ones in a lot of cases perpetuating the condescension that they are accusing other people of perpetuating. You're exactly right. And I don't go ahead, go ahead. Go ahead.

And how embarrassing for the black member or the person who worked for that congregation, right? If I'm the black guy to whom he had said to this public setting, I'll hire the black seven, not the black six, when I thought I was the black 10 walking in, how embarrassing for him to show up to work the next day and to be looked at by his peers as the only reason he's here is out of the benevolent heart of someone, who checked their privilege, who was willing to hire the Black 7, all the while him believing himself to be equal to or if not better than anyone else who was hired for the position. Yeah, Alie, let me say, let me say this. Listen, I'm not, I'm not saying every pastor is in this category, but a lot of people, a lot of them, a lot of them are cowards. A lot of them just flat Cowars. Because when you think that you have to adjust your message from one ethnic group to another ethnic group, that tells me that you care more about your own personal reputation than you do the

gospels. Okay. When you're preaching the gospel, right? Number one, scripture, if it's not clear on anything else, it's clear on this. That when you preach the gospel, you're going to be hated. You're going to make enemies. Matter of fact, if you're not making enemies, then you're probably not preaching the biblical gospel. Okay, so I would challenge those pastors. And they know who they are. They're going to hear this message. They know who they are because the Holy Spirit is going to convict them in their own heart. They know who they are. Stop being cowards and stop playing to the world as if you have to appease them. Whose gospel are you preaching? Is it the gospel with your name on it? Or is the gospel with Jesus Christ's name on it? There would be no gospel if we're not for Christ.

Right. So stop being cowards and preach courageously the biblical gospel that Jesus Christ preach. Yes. And something I try to remind Christians is that you're never going to be woke enough anyway to appease, you know, the activist groups. So you can, you know, you can get on board with their calls for justice, which of course, are not actually justice because they're not rooted in God's definition of justice. You can speak their language. You can have all the conversations.

You can read their books. They're still coming for your views on marriage and sexuality and abortion. They're still coming for you. So until you completely capitulate and in so doing renounce your faith, you're never going to appease them. So why waste time now? Right. Why waste time now trying?

I've said from day one, you know, there is no satiating the woke. You just think of what. woke with an ellipsis after it, okay, woke, dot, dot, dot. Okay, because I say that because the definition is never fixed. It always changes. They're always moving the goalposts. They're always raising the bar. You draw a line here. You think you're drawing a line to submit, but their line is really in the sand. They just erase it and draw a new line. It's every day, sometimes multiple times a day. You know, so again, it's like Paul says, you know, who am I trying to please here? Am I trying to please man? Am I trying to please God? Well, if I'm trying to please man, then I don't

please God. So you have to pick whose side are you on here. You have to, you know, you can have one foot in woke theology and then have the other foot in biblical theology. That's not how it works. Verge, did you have something to say, Virge? Go ahead, man. I'm good. You got it. Well, guys, thank you so much. I wish I could keep talking for another hour. You guys have so much to say. And so I have just gotten so much biblical insight from you, not on just this topic, which really is just a fragment of what you guys talk about, but just godly living and biblical living and biblical perspectives on the chaos and the craziness,

I think that you, through the power of the Holy Spirit, you guys are keeping a lot of people sane, a lot of Christians who say, okay, you know, I thought the gospel was enough. I thought biblical living was enough. I thought I was just supposed to love the Lord, my God, with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength and love my neighbor as myself.

I thought Jesus's burden was light and his yoke was easy, but now I'm turning to pastors who are saying just the opposite. you guys, through the power of the Holy Spirit and God's God is helping keep people grounded. So just thank you so much for what you guys do. Thank you, Allie. Thank you, Ellie. Thank you so much. Hey, this is Steve Day.

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