Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 283 | Are We in the End Times? Part 1: How We Interpret Revelation Matters | Guest: Jeff Durbin

Episode Date: August 3, 2020

With the chaos ensuing around us during the COVID-19 age, many Christians are asking the question, "Are we in the end times?" Pastor Jeff Durbin joins Allie Beth Stuckey to introduce two different ways of interpreting the end of the age as described in the book of Revelation: Allie Beth Stuckey represents premillennialism while Jeff Durbin represents postmillennialism. In this two-part series, we explore the depths of why eschatology matters. Today's Link: https://apologiastudios.com/

Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. So I have an awesome conversation with you today. It is a very full theological rich conversation. I'm going to be talking to Apologist and pastor Jeff Durbin about the end times. We have two different perspectives on the end times. And if you just need a primer for what post-millennialist means or pre-millennialist means or post-trib, pre-trib, dispensationalist, If you are not sure about those in times words and all of that vocabulary, you can go back and you can listen to an episode I did a while ago called the in times where I tried to break that down. It was from about a year ago. So you can go back and listen to or watch that. GotQuestions.org is also a good website that kind of can tell you the different terms and what they actually mean.

I will say the site isn't without its own bias and perspective. So just make sure that you are weighing everything against the word of God, especially when and after you listen to this conversation. I also recommend Wayne Grudom's systematic theology. He goes through each position, each eschatological position. And so that would be a great primer for this episode. But of course, if you are someone who kind of already understands the end times and you've got your own perspective, this is going to be extremely enriching, hopefully challenging for you and gets you to think a little bit about what you believe about the end times. such an important conversation because as you will see as I talk to Jeff, this really does shape

not just how you think, but the way that you live your life. So without further ado, here is Jeff Durbin. Jeff, thank you so much for joining me. It's absolutely my pleasure. So you have already been on my podcast before. Most people who are listening to this probably know who you are and listen to you as well. But just in case, can you tell everyone who you are and what you do? Sure, I'm a pastor at Apology at Church and a host of Apologya Radio. We have here is Apologya Studios. I have been a pastor for a very, very long time. I started Apology at Church when I was the chaplain at a drug rehab.

I was a pastor at another church in Phoenix, and I was also full-time the chaplain at a hospital, drug rehab. And this church came out of that drug rehab. So many people came to Christ out of addiction. They needed to be cared for, so the church I was at sent me, and here we are. Years later, we have a lot of ministries. We do a lot of outreach to the cults. We do public debates.

We do a lot of ministry in the area of abortion. And so end abortion now is one ministry of Apology at church, and we've raised up over 500 churches, mostly across the United States, but also globally, who go to the abortion mills. And at this point, there's been thousands and thousands of children saved. And that particular ministry has two aspects to it. One is saving lives at the abortion mill. The other is actually working to speak prophetically to legislators to work towards the ultimate end abolition, criminalization of abortion.

So we have a lot going on. Awesome. Yes, you do. And we can talk about any number of those topics for the entirety of our conversation. Today, we are going to talk about one topic that I love to listen to you on, even though I, for now, have a different perspective.

And that is eschatology. You are a post-millennialist, but you used to be a pre-millennialist, correct? And you have graduated to this. And so first I just want to hear how you kind of took that theological and eschatological journey. Yeah, absolutely. So I wasn't raised in a Christian home, and so I had really no understanding of the Bible. I had heard basic things, and I saw a movie about Jesus as a kid. And so knew there was a person named Jesus who,

died on a cross and people claimed D. Rosen again from the dead. There was a Bible of my parents' stereo system wherever we went in the world. I'm an Air Force Brats, so we're always traveling. And that Bible just sort of sat there collecting dust. So I mean, that's about my understanding of Christianity.

And then hearing the gospel, having a profession of faith in Jesus, my, so hadn't gone to church, so didn't grow up in church, wasn't going to listen to sermons, I mean, really nothing. And so my first Bible study that I went to, I vividly remember it, actually. I go, it was at a house, and so I go to this

house, and it was a youth group, and I walk in, and I was a little bit late, so when I walked in, it was already happening, they were in the living room, and they were watching a movie. So the Bible study was a movie, and it was an awful, typically awful Christian film that was on the Tribulation. I can't remember that. Maybe it was thief in the night or something like that. It was, all I remember is that it scared me, and of course it was very low budget and a terrible movie. But so my very first Bible study was on eschatology, and the perspective that I was given was dispensational pre-millennialism. It's the popular idea.

It's in history. It's a theological novum. It's something that's new. It didn't exist before the 19th century, but it is a dominant view today in the West, at least. It's the perspective that there's going to be a rapture. believers and the unbelievers are left behind and then there's seven years of tribulation and then followed by the return of Christ to bring his kingdom for a thousand literal years

and then there's another resurrection after that but that was the perspective and so when I began to really study and grow I went to Bible College and the perspective I was taught in Bible College was dispensational pre-millennialism there was really a waving of the hand. I remember even the eschatology classes because it was my favorite subject. I was a fiend with eschatology. I mean, I really was kind of nutty with it. It's really all I like to talk about. I remember the waving of the hand at the other perspectives. It was, well, this is the, this is the perspective. Here's the charts. Here's the proof text. And there, you know, there's other perspectives in history, like ah, millennialism and post-millennialism. But my professor, I distinctly

remember saying, but that's just theological liberalism. And it's just, it's not biblical. So, Onward. So that's what I understood. And so I was the kind of person that would literally go to Borders Books and Music, which doesn't exist anymore, sadly. Their demise was even pre-COVID. So that's interesting. I went to Borders Books and Music because every week they would get like the newspapers from around the world. And I would go to pick up a copy of the Jerusalem Post because I wanted to see what was happening in Jerusalem and how close we were to the rapture. I was a huge fan of Howell Lindsay, Tim LeHay. Those were my homeboys. I used to make sure that I was home. I believe that it was every Sunday night. I forget what it was just to listen to how Lindsay's his weekly report about what's happening in the world and how close we are to the rapture. And so that's that was my, you know, my initial understanding and growth in this area of eschatology was this is the truth. This is what Christians have always believed. And this is the biblical position. And that's all I read. That's all I understood. And I used to believe. that we were so close to the rapture, we wouldn't have even made it until the year 2000.

And I was just excited and could not wait to be raptured and taken away and leave all this behind. And that was my perspective. So that's where I came from. I don't know if you want to hear yet of how I came to the perspective I am now. Well, I do want to clarify some things because there's probably a lot of people who are listening who hold that dispensationalist view. And maybe they didn't even know it was called dispensationalist, but I was raised in a Southern Baptist home. My husband was raised in a Southern Baptist home, and we were both taught the same

things. Without really too much emphasis on the details of it, it was just so accepted and so widely accepted that I don't think I even knew, like you said, that there were even any other views on it. So if you could kind of go into a little bit more detail of the biblical support that is typically cited for that view, and then I guess that would segue you into why you, or how you figured out biblically that it was not the view that you believe to be true. Yeah, so, yeah, absolutely. So one of the things that I remember as a distinct aspect of like learning that objective was that it was perspective via a proof text here or there.

So it was, you know, give an example. Let's just use the Left Behind series as an example because that's, you know, the popular terminology. and that's what people sort of are, that's the expectation that unbelievers are going to be left behind. If you look on YouTube right now, you'll even see people. So this is like a big ticket item. You'll see people making videos to loved ones and friends. Hey, in case I'm not here and I disappear, just know that I have a box of Bibles in my garage for you

and some instructions on how you can be saved during the tribulation. And so the assumption is that people left behind. So you'll have texts people will refer to and this was even done during the promotional aspects of the film left behind. That was a man in a field and he's looking up and it says, you know, left behind. He's always working in a field. And so when you think about sort of like a popular proof text that gets people to that perspective of like believers being raptured away, oops, and unbelievers being left behind, that would come from Matthew, say, 24. And that's the Lord Jesus talks about, well, I'll just give you a quick,

burst of the verses there so I can do it accurately. In Matthew 24, Jesus is talking about the temple being taken apart, one not one stone upon another. You have all the dramatic statements about stars falling from heaven. I mean, it's a pretty powerful indictment, of course, but also a pretty powerful section of scripture. That sounds scary to a lot of people, wars and rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes, all that stuff. But then Jesus says in 2434, truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and Earth will pass away. My words will by no means pass away. It says concerning that day an hour, no one knows, not even the angels of heaven nor the son, but the father only. For as were the days of Noah, so it'll be the coming of the son of man.

As in those days, people were eating and drinking. Jesus goes on to describe those circumstances, and then he says this. He says, then two will be in the field. One will be taken, one left. Two women will be in the grinding at the grinding at the mill. One will be taken one left. therefore stay awake for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. So the idea there in that perspective in terms of a thematic theme and being left behind and unbelievers being left behind is a text like Matthew 24. You know, two people are there, one's left and one's taken away. And people say, okay, that's the believers.

Believers are taken away. Unbelievers will be left. And that's how I read that text. And that was my understanding. And so I'll just, we could do a host of other verses, but that's the way that I was given this perspective is by way of, here's the understanding, believers are going to be taken away, and look, here's a proof text, here's a verse that there's people in the field, one's taken, one's left. And so the assumption there is the believers are taken and the unbelievers are left.

So just by way of getting into sort of how my perspective was challenged, I came to a point where I was, well, I'll just tell you, on a very personal level, I believe this position so strongly, I was such a strong advocate for it. It's what I love to talk about. I was in a coffee shop once with a bunch of friends, and I started talking with them, we're just hanging out and talking, and I was talking about the Book of Revelation. And I remember that as I was talking about the Book of Revelation,

I felt extremely grieved. I felt grieved like I was saying something wrong, which was really strange because I love this topic. And so I remember I went home, and it felt like I had done something wrong. And so I'm just in deep prayer, like what happened? Why am I feeling like I'm being convicted? Like, I was, you know, what's going on?

And so I realized that I was talking about end time stuff and revelation while this was happening. And so I just started to feel challenged. Like, well, did I say something wrong? And so what I did is I committed to reading the book of Revelation once a day, every single day for 30 days. By day four, reading through the Book of Revelation, I remember I was sitting in a coffee shop reading through Revelation. I remember I closed my Bible and I thought to myself, I have to be wrong. I'm seeing things in the Book of Revelation even, which is a highly complex. book, very symbolic, a lot of text from the Old Testament, but I remember I was seeing things

that I thought, that has to have already happened. There's no way that could be future to us if I'm reading this biblically. And so then I started to feel challenge, like, well, wait a second, how is that possible? So I started reading the Great Tribulation passages, that's the, in the synoptics, Mark 13, Luke 21, Matthew 24, parallel passages there. And I started reading through the Great Tribulation or all of the discourse passages, and it's sort of thinking, well, that had to happen in the first century. Otherwise, Jesus is a false prophet. So I started to feel very challenged, and I remembered. And you're saying, sorry, just to clarify, the reason that you're saying it had to have

already happened or else Jesus is a false prophet because of what he says this generation will not pass away before they see these things happening. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Yeah, contextually reading that what Jesus was doing there is he's not talking to me. me. That's one of the things that challenge me is I keep trying to find myself in the text or us in the text, but realizing the contextually, Jesus is talking to first century Jerusalem. He's talking to the leadership of Jerusalem. He's indicting them for their covenant on faithfulness. He's promising

them very serious judgment that their house is going to be left to them desolate. And then he goes on to tell them that the temple's going to be destroyed and not one stone is going to be left upon another. No, contextually, I was saying, well, that's talking to them. That's their temple. I get it. And then he's telling them what the disciples are to expect before this coming judgment. And then, of course, you have that text in 34 of Matthew 24. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. That verse is after, after everything he said about stars falling from heaven, about the wars and rumors of wars. And he's talking to them.

He's not talking to me. And every time this generation is used in the Gospels, it's referring to the generation, that Jesus is then speaking to. It's not a novelty dropped into Matthew 24. It's something that's used throughout the gospels. And so, and this is the challenge. As I'm reading through the text and just saying, let the text speak, I'm starting to see things that make me feel a bit awkward like I have to have this wrong. But mind you, I've been in a biblical, I've been in a church context where I'm taught that this is the only view there is. These are the views, just theological liberalism and all the rest. But I had remembered, Ali, that about a year before, I was at borders, spent a lot of time there, and

I had seen there was a book by R.C. Sprole called The Last Days According to Jesus. Now, I know who Sprole was. I loved Sprole. But I remember, I was like, ooh, eschatology by R.C. Sprole, great. And so I picked the book up, and I'm telling you, I remember that I opened it, and it was like a foreign language to me. My mindset was already in just one category that I'm reading Sprole and I'm going, what? What's he taught? It just seemed like gibberish to me. And I remember I put it back on the shelf and I thought to myself,

well, everybody's got something weird about their theology, I guess. And I left it alone. But as I'm in this place where I'm starting to go, no, this had to have already happened. Otherwise, this is a false prophecy, clearly. And it can't be. Jesus is the Messiah. So I literally went to borders

like immediately, B-line and the book was still there, interestingly. And I grabbed it. And as I'm reading through, Dr. R.C. Sprohl talking about these texts, the Olivet discourse, and everything else, I realized, oh, my perspective is something that's new in history. And, oh, and some of the giants of the faith and church fathers throughout history held to this perspective. And even early Christian pastors and apologists were using Matthew 24 in the Olivet discourse as an apologetic that it already happened, and that demonstrates that Jesus was the Messiah. And so as I'm reading this, I'm starting a challenge,

So this circles me back, Allie, to, we talk about some text that would sort of be used for dispensational premillennialism. There is a difference, by the way, between dispensational premillennialism and just straight premillennialism of a historic flavor. That text of being left behind. And I'd like to hang on that, at least to focus in upon this is a major theme. This is a movie. This is a book series. This is sort of what everyone adopts. I was challenged because in Matthew 24, if you let the text speak,

If you just read it and let the text speak and don't come to it with a system in place to try to read into the text. Jesus says in verse 36, he says, but concerning that day and hour, no one knows, not even the angels of heaven nor the son, but the father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the son of man. For as in those days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware, until the flood came and swept them all over. swept them all away. So will be the coming of the Son of Man. Well, as you read the text, you think about where Jesus is pointing us. He's pointing us, of course, in this passage to judgment upon that generation. But then he refers to Noah. Now, I had to think about this as I let the text speak.

In Noah's day, who was swept away? Who was destroyed? Well, that was the unbelievers. They were swept away. So who was left behind in Noah's day? Not the unbelievers. It was Noah and his sons and daughters-in-law and his wife. And so it was the righteous who were left behind and the unbelievers were swept away. And Jesus uses there, and the next verses, he says, then two will be in the field. One will be taken and one left. Two women will be at the grinding at the mill and one will be taken one left. Well, he just put that with Noah. And in Noah's day, the ones who were left were the righteous and the ones taken away were the wicked. So it was a huge challenge to me to realize I have literally, for all of these years, read this passage so many times.

And I have not seen what's right in front of my face. Why? Because I was taught a system of framework, and I'm reading the text, not drawing out of the text, what does it say? But I'm going to the text with an assumption about what Jesus means, and I'm reading that assumption into the text, and so I can only see my system and my assumption, rather than saying, no, no, no, what, what's the text say? How did Jesus, what did Jesus point us to as a reference point? And it's Noah, and his family was spared, and his family was left behind, and it's the wicked who were swept away. The people who were left that day were the meek, the righteous. They inherited the earth,

the land, not the unbelievers. So that was sort of a draw, a jaw-dropping moment for me, theologically speaking, and it was challenging to me, Alan, because I realized at that point, we have to be so cautious. I've got to be so cautious. I've got to be so cautious to understand, I can have good Bible teachers, respect these people, but they're fallible men. I have to hold up the standard that we say we hold to, and that's that scripture's the final authority, and test all things, hold fast to that, which is true. And so even if you have a great Bible teacher that's a great godly man of God, or you have a great, you know, woman who's mentoring you, she's teaching you all these things, and you've just sort of been fed this, we still need to be

holding to the standard of scriptures the standard. And in the case of eschatology, that's what I I ran face, I ran right into was, wow, I've been reading all these texts with this preconceived system, and I'm only saying the system, and I'm using these things as proof texts. And so that's a big ticket item. And so there was also the other issue of the kingdom, and I'm sure we're going to get into that, because that's sort of the overarching issue of post-millianism, is the rule of Christ. I always thought that the kingdom of Christ was coming later. And it was a literal thousand-year reign of Christ on this physical earth.

And that's later. And then when I began to really discover that Jesus taught that his kingdom had actually arrived, and so did the apostles, and that was actually the promise in terms of the Old Testament, I was challenged once again on my perspective. Okay, so let me make some distinctions here for maybe people who are new to eschatological conversations, the dispensationalist. So the pre-tribulation, pre-millennialist people who read Matthew 204 to say, like John McArthur, for example, would believe this, that we are going to be raptured. Then there's going to be a tribulation.

The people who are left behind are the unrighteous, the unbelievers. And then it's going to go through a tribulation. During that time, people will come to know Christ, and then Christ will come back, and then the millennial reign will happen. and that is the dispensationalist view. Why are all of these words so hard to say? I'm not sure. It makes these conversations even more complicated and difficult. But you believe, as you just explained,

that that passage of being left behind is not talking about the unrighteous being left behind, but the righteous actually being left behind. In those days of tribulation that are described in Matthew 24, you are asserting that Jesus is actually talking about something that already happened in 70 AD, correct? whereas dispensationalists would say that is still a future event. That is why, for example, when you were a dispensationalist, you were looking at the Jerusalem Post and saying, okay, when are all these signs going to happen? When am I going to be raptured?

That's what dispensationalists are still doing today because they're waiting for the events of Matthew 24 and other places to happen to see when the rapture is going to happen when the righteous will go up and the unrighteous will be left behind for the tribulation. That is the correct distinction, right? Yes, yes. In terms of dispensationalism, just to be fair to our dispensationalism, there's different perspectives today. There's more of a classical dispensational perspective versus modern views. The perspective itself, dispensational premillennialism,

didn't exist before the 19th century. It was popularized in the West by the Schofield Reference Bible. And there's been changes. people would some modern dispensationalists would repudiate some of those things from classic dispensationalism and say no no it's more this way and then even within dispensational pre-millennialism and the idea of the great tribulation as future to us you have people who are pre-rath rapture mid-rapture and then you have post-tribulation rapture so you have all kinds of things out today arguing people are very popular today to argue for a post-tribulation rapture in other words that believers are going to have to go through

the tribulation and then be raptured at the end. So there's even distinctions in that camp between them. But yes, the popular view we're talking about sees, the Olivet discourse, the great tribulation passage, as future to us. And I would say that you see that the most. As someone says, what's that look like? I would say, have you ever seen something bad happening in the world? And then either your pastor or your Bible teacher or friends quoted the passage, wars and

rumors of wars, famines, pestilence, earthquake, those things. Well, that's coming from Matthew 24. Now, I'm of the perspective of, say, an early pastor, apologist and bishop named Eusebius. He wrote in one of his works an apologetic that this passage actually demonstrates that Jesus was the Messiah because it already happened. And he uses as a point of reference the fact that early Christians were warned by the Lord Jesus in this prophecy to flee. the city when they saw it surrounded. And that's precisely what happened in history. We know as a matter of record that early Christians did read this prophecy as referring to them. And they took the warning of the Lord Jesus where he says, when you see the abomination that causes desolation, let the reader

understand, then flee. So you can, by the way, it's interesting, Jesus teaches his people they can actually escape this tribulation by just simply leaving Jerusalem. I never thought about it like that because I always thought about it as, yes, he tells us to flee, but he also says it's going to be really bad in those days, even for the people that flee, you know, woe to the women who are pregnant and nursing during that time. So I always read that. I mean, I am also reading it as a future event as premillennialist, but thinking, and also thinking I'm also post-tribulation.

And so thinking, oh, I'm going to go through that time. And I've talked to a lot of women that are like, should I get pregnant right now? I mean, Jesus is saying this is going to be a really bad time for me. And so, yeah, I would say that a lot of people are reading it that way. Ali, that's a great point. I'm really glad you brought you used that specific example of, and this is an example of people say, like, what's the big deal? It's complicated.

I would say, I understand, but we as believers have to go to the text and let the text speak. And I want to say the ascotology matters. Yes, it does. And I've realized that more and more, the more I think about it. Yeah, and you brought it the premier example of how it impacts you. is think about that, a believing woman in a marriage, like a husband and wife struggling, like, should we have kids right now? Well, why wouldn't you have kids right now? Because, well, you're right here, it says, woe to those who are pregnant or nursing in those days. It's like,

well, I think that's right around the corner, so maybe we shouldn't have kids. I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no. Because actually the warning there that Jesus is giving is he's warning them about the intensity of this judgment that's coming. And, you know, pregnant or nursing in those days, pray that it's not on the Sabbath, the winter, you have all these different discussions, you know, and then don't even go into the house to get your coat. Now, the best thing to do here is to say, okay, what's Jesus saying there? Because that's a big deal, but who's he talking to? Who's the audience? Okay, his disciples in front of him. What's the reference point?

The temple itself and his destruction. We have this generation. He's talking to them and what they're going to see. But then he tells them, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies. So the reference point here is, okay, so when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, that's from Luke. Luke, by the way, gives the Gentile interpretation, I think of Matthew, where Matthew says, when you see the abomination that causes desolation, flee. Luke says, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, flee.

Well, again, Eusebius, an early Christian church father and pastor, bishop, when he's referring to this event, he uses it as an apologetic to show that Jesus was, in fact, who he claimed to be, because he says that early Christians, they read that passage, and they obeyed it, and they escaped the judgment of Jerusalem, and they've fought. fled to a town called Pella. Now, that's a matter of historical record. Christians escaped the judgment on Jerusalem by listening to the words of Jesus in Matthew 24. So isn't an interesting that we have early Christians actually reading Matthew 24 in the Olivet discourse saying, we got to obey that, that's us. And then in the 21st century, we have Christians

in the West saying, well, maybe I shouldn't have kids. Yeah. Because that's future to me. And so, eschatology matters. It will have a dramatic impact on you. Because, and I'll just, I'll say this last thing and be quiet. You know, if you see this as future to us, if you say things like, what's the point of polishing brass on a sinking ship and why bother rearranging furniture on the Titanic, the world's just going to hell in a handbasket,

so why bother doing anything? Jesus is coming back at any moment. I wanted to say this. You'll live that way. You'll live like it's true. You'll live that way. Not just in the area of not having kids and not getting pregnant and all those things.

But you'll live that way in terms of when the world is falling apart around you, you won't be as salty. You won't be light because you'll be like me. And that is the kind of person that's seeing the world collapse around you when I was in this perspective. And my response was, oh, just get me out of here. Like, just get me out of this awful place. I can't wait to just abandon this all behind me. I just can't wait for you to take me out of this. The world is so awful right now.

Whereas I think if you have the perspective of Christ's ruling and reigning now, putting his enemies under his feet until there's final victory and then death is destroyed. You take seriously things like you're the salt, you're the, you're the, you're the light, and you're going to preserve things from spoil and decay, you're going to dispel the darkness, the meek inherit the earth, you know, he shall have dominion from sea to sea, from the river to the ends of the earth. He will establish justice in the earth. You know, you'll say, you know, my job is to sit here and to be the bride of Christ and to fight, to be his help meat, as he brings his rule in his kingdom around the world and establishes salvation and justice and righteousness around the world.

You'll live like that's true. And I just want to say, that's why end abortion now. Yeah. And people like, you know, what drives that? Well, we want to be obedient. I want to obey God and save these children. But what drives our perspective of hope in that is that I know that Jesus is going to win. And so I'm just a part of the means of that process. Maybe it's just a seat today. Maybe we're the seed. Maybe we're at the tip. Like we're about to put a bill in this year in Arizona, Lord willing, it all works out. That's supposed to be happening right now. We have legislators who are going to be criminalizing abortion in Arizona. They're working to criminalize, not regulate.

And all that comes, if somebody says, where's that come from? Where's that courage come from? Where's it come from? My answer is post-millennialism, baby. Yeah. So I think that pre-millennialists would say, I mean, a lot of people who listen to this, they really respect you and they also respect someone like John McArthur, and they know that both of you take the Bible so seriously. And Both of you are obedient. And we just saw, for example, John McArthur say, you know what, Christ is the head of the church, not Gavin Newsome, and we are going to stand up and be obedient. Obviously, his obedience, and even in the ministries that his church has that fights against

abortion in a variety of ways, they're not motivated by post-millennialism the way you are, but they are motivated and compelled by the love of Christ to be obedient. And their thought is, yes, that Jesus is going to come back and rule in perfect peace and justice, but until then the world is going to get worse and worse. But I think the pre-millanalyst would argue that we are still motivated for obedience, even when it seems like the darkness is closing in all around us, because Jesus calls us to that. I think you would read something like 2nd Timothy 3-1 through 7 that says,

but understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty for people will be lovers of South, you know, the whole passage. And so we read that to think, okay, the world is going to get worse and worse. that doesn't change our responsibility to be salt and light. And we have a hope. We cling to the hope and we push forward for the hope that Jesus will come back in rain and perfect peace and justice. But the pre-millennialist doesn't necessarily see that, you know, God's law manifesting itself better and better until Jesus comes back. So I think that that is the distinction.

Would you say that's a correct assessment? It's important to say that a brother like John MacArthur, he's a faithful, faithful man of God, much better than me, I'll ever be. And I'm grateful for all that he has done and all that he did this past weekend and confronting the tyranny of the state of California. And yes, the answer is faithful men of God who hold to that perspective, want to honor God, want to honor his word, or trying to rightly divide the truth. But we have to understand that there are faithful Christians throughout history who have

disagreed. So the big question is, okay, what does the text actually say? because you obviously have faithful men and women of God on both sides of the issue. And you're exactly right, Allie. In the end, what I always appreciate about my brothers who hold to a perspective of a rapture and a tribulation and all of that as future to us, I really respect the ones who say, however, our duty is to be faithful while we're here and to fight.

And I'm always very encouraged by that. The one thing I would say to that is that that's faithfulness, even with a perspective that I would say I don't think it's completely true. But what happens in the pews, though, when we tell people it's just going to get worse and worse and worse and we're just going to get raptured out of here. Like, you know, our hope is that rapture. What tends to happen in the pews is that people sort of live accordingly. Because as things bad around us, the major theme is, well, it's just going to get worse. So what's the point?

It's sort of like my friend has said it this way. Imagine being on a field playing a game, you know, of intense football. or soccer or whatever. And, you know, the coaches at the sidelines, he says, all right, guys, we're going to go out there. We're going to give it our very best, but I absolutely guarantee you're going to lose. It's going to hurt. You're going to get slaughtered. We're going to get destroyed today.

But I want you to do your best. Go! Like, you'd be like, well, it's not a real motivator, practically speaking, to say, I guarantee destruction and loss, but get out there and give it your best shot. But, but I would kind of push back on that metaphor and say, but if you talk about, but if you told the team, look, it's going to look like you're about to lose. And it's going to look really hard. And it's going to look like all the odds are stacked against you. But in the end, you are going to be victorious. That might be motivating. And that would be motivating to push through

the difficulty that you're up against because you know that even if it looks like you're going to lose, you know that you're going to win. That, I would say, would be motivating. And that would be what the premillennialist would say would motivate us. Is that ending glory that we are going to take part in one day, not something that we'll see on earth, but when Christ comes back. No, that's a very, that's a very good point. So that brings to, that brings us, to all right to the most important elements. And you just, you just went right to it, the most important elements. Does, let's say, let's make it simple so that we don't, um, overcomplicate things because they can get, eschatology can get so complicated. Yes, it can. And that's,

that's the only truth. Because it's a big revelation. We're talking about like 66 different books and letters over 2,000 years, and it's all stuff about Jesus, and it's also ascotology stuff, and it's like ethical stuff, law stuff, and we have to just confess, this is a complicated subject. So what I like to do, and you landed on just the right spot, and it's the question of, like, in terms of, like, practical, we talk about praxis, we talk about, like, how should we live, and it's, I think, a good passage to go to, like 1st Corinthians 15, that's where the apostle Paul gives an inspired timeline of history.

And it does, in that timeline, I truly believe if we just sit down, let the text speak, and we just do it as a timeline and ask the question, okay, which belief matches this timeline that the apostle puts out for us? And so the question is like, okay, is it going to get worse and worse and worse and we're getting beat up and beat up and beat up and finally Jesus returns for the resurrection to a world that is hostile to God? and at enmity with God, and Jesus comes for that final victory. Now, there's no question.

We have to be fair to historic premillennialists or of whatever stripe. We have to be fair and say, we all believe as Christians historically in the final resurrection of the just and the unjust and the ultimate victory of Jesus. The question is, what happens in this space before that resurrection we all agree with? Right. And you made a good point. Even if it gets worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and we're just beat up and it hurts and it's painful, Jesus is coming back in victory. And then there is a final victory in the church wins anyways because our Savior returns as king and there's a final resurrection. Okay. The other perspective is to say Jesus brought that kingdom.

And it started as a seed, mustard seed, it's going to grow into a large tree. It's like leaven in a lump of dough that fills the end. the entirety of the loaf. It's like a stone, Daniel says, cut out of a mountain that destroys the kingdoms, and then it rolls and becomes a mountain that fills the entire earth. That's the other perspective in terms of the kingdom is entered, and the goal is actually upward motion of salvation and peace and justice in the earth. Well, I think Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, he says this. He says, here's the gospel, and he gives the gospel. He says, you know, Jesus died, he rose again. He appeared. He said he appeared to Peter. He appeared finally to me.

and he says, and he must reign. So from the inspired apostles' perspective, Jesus is reigning. Now, that's a very big deal to say that, because they were expecting the reign of the Messiah. So for Paul to say, and he must reign, and he's raining now, seated. By the way, that's seated on the Davidic throne, the messianic throne. He's seated now. He's not waiting to take that seat. He's seated now.

He said, and he must reign until, and then he quotes, the most. popular verse from the Old Testament in the New Testament. It's used the most, alluded to, quoted in the New Testament. So this was their favorite verse. I've often said, and my friend said this, I borrowed from him. It appears to be God's favorite Bible verse because it's used the most in a New Testament. He must reign until he has placed all of his enemies under his feet as a footstool for his feet. And then he says, and then the last enemy to be defeated is death. So Paul says, in a timeline, of history, Jesus is reigning now, and he's placing all of his enemies under his feet, and after they're all under his feet, then he'll destroy death. And then it says, interestingly, and then he delivers the kingdom over to the father. So from the inspired apostles' perspective, when the Lord returns for the resurrection, he'll destroy death after all of his other enemies are already under his feet. And then he doesn't come to bring the kingdom. It says that he then delivers the rule here, Father, here. Here's the kingdom. Look what I did. So that's the timeline of history that the apostle gives. And it gets to exactly what you said. Does it get worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and then final victory? Or is it a progressive victory of enemies under the feet to then final victory in climax? And then the kingdom is not brought at that point. It's delivered to the father as victorious. Look what I did. I think that is a simplified timeline from the

inspired apostle in terms of like, cut through all the gobbledygook. What's he said, this is the expectation. And it does mark the distinction between the two perspectives. Ultimately, I think it's been said before, there really are, if you simplify it, two perspectives in eschatology. There's pessimilinealism or optimillianism. The idea that we have a pessimistic perspective in terms of like, what's the course of human history? How's it going to go? Well, not so well, and then victory. Or optimalianism, in other words, what's the perspective of human history before the resurrection? Well, optimistic. It's victorious. It's justice. It's salvation. It's righteousness. And then he finally returns. So I think that's the best way to look at it is from

those two perspectives.