Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 285 | Is The End Near? End Times: Part 2 | Guests: Jeff Durbin & Joel Webbon

Episode Date: August 7, 2020

In Part 2 of the two-part series, Jeff Durbin and Allie Beth Stuckey discuss the definition of the "end of days," covenant breakers, the judgment of tribulation, and how the dating of the book of Revelation can also affect your stance on eschatology. Finally, Jeff addresses how America correlates to these "end times" and how postmillennialism may have affected the creation of the Constitution. Allie is also joined by Pastor Joel Webbon of Right Response Ministries in California, and he shares his perspective in meeting up as a church congregation despite the orders given by California Gov. Gavin Newsom. Today's Links: https://RightResponseMinistries.com/relatable https://alliebethstuckey.com/book https://apologiastudios.com Today's Sponsors: "Am I Truly Saved?" is a brand new book by Pastor Joel Webbon of Right Response Ministries. It was forwarded by Costi Hinn, and it has been promoted by Darrell Harrison and Virgil Walker. Pick up a copy today. Go to https://RightResponseMinistries.com/relatable See how much you can save on your car and homeowners insurance. Go to https://Gabi.com/RELATABLE

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed.

You can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Today we will have part two of my conversation with Jeff Durbin about post-millennialism and his view of the end times. And today I will actually get to that question, that burning question, do you believe we are in the end times right now? And you might be surprised by his answer.

I was. So I'm really excited for you to hear the rest of this conversation, which a lot of you have said has just really made you think. And that's good. Whether or not you agree with him, whether or not I agree with him, it challenges us to talk to someone who takes the Word of God very seriously and may come to different conclusions than we do about eschatology. And that's okay.

That's a wonderful thing about having the Word of God and having fellowship and conversations with other believers is that we are actually. challenged in our views and we become either firmer in what we believe based on the Word of God or we go a different direction to better align our views with the Word of God. And I will be talking in the near future to a pre-millanialist as I am. I'm post-trib pre-Millil. I will be talking to a person who is pre-millennialist. And so you might feel, oh, are you just trying to confuse me, Allie?

No, I'm not. I'm just trying to make sure that we are looking at this from all sides. and a lot of you have commented on YouTube about, don't forget about a millennialist. Yes, I'm very sympathetic to that perspective as well. And so maybe we'll have someone on with the a millennialist perspective, too. Did a whole podcast called In Times. If you have no idea what I'm talking about,

go back and listen to that from about a year ago. Okay, I do want to remind you guys that it is Friday, which means I am just a few days away from releasing my book. You're not enough and that's okay. escaping the toxic culture of self-love. So excited for you guys to get your hands on this. A lot of you have already pre-ordered. You have sent your proof of purchase to Allie B. Stucky at penguin randomhouse.com.

You've gotten your excerpt, which I've gotten so much amazing feedback from. So thank you guys. Some of you have even requests like social media graphics, requested social media graphics so you have been able to promote and share online. That means so much to me. Thank you so much for your support for everyone who has already joined Women's Book Club with Allie Stuckey on Facebook. If you haven't done that,

make sure you do. If you are, in fact, a woman, go to Alliebethstucky.com slash book. That's where you can find all the places that you can pre-order this book. And we will start to talk about it in Women's Book Club

with Allie Stucky on Facebook a couple weeks after the release date to make sure that everyone can get it and enough people can join so we can actually talk about it together. So again, thank you so much to all of your support, to everyone who has pre-ordered.

if you have not done so, I encourage you to do so, buy some for your family, for the people in your church, for your Bible study, maybe go through it together with a group of girls. We've got a study guide coming out that will be available to you. So go out, alibeessagie.com slash book or go to your local Barnes & Noble, your local bookstore, your local library, and pick it up and read it. And please feel free to let me know what you think. So again, Alliebestegie.com slash book. Now, before we get into the conversation with Jeff. I want to let you know that we're going to do something a little bit different. At the end of my conversation with Jeff, there's actually another shorter conversation that I will be having with Apologist and Pastor Joel Webbin. He is the head of right response

ministries. He wrote a book called Am I Truly Saved? The book is an essential commentary on 1st John written in a devotional style. Each chapter contains clear explanations of challenging biblical passages that are concise, easy to understand. Also, Webben has offered reflection questions at the end of each chapter that will energize your personal devotions and enable you to navigate your life with deeper conviction. Am I Truly Saved is forded by Costi Hen. You guys remember Costi Hen, he's the author of God Greed, the Prosperity Gospel. I've had him on my podcast, one of my most popular episodes ever. He also was gracious enough to write a blurb for my book. Costi Han is awesome. He wrote the forward to this book by Joel Webin.

The book was also promoted by my friends Daryl Harrison and Virgil Walker. You guys love them. I know on a recent episode of the Just Thinking podcast. So make sure that you pick up a copy today. Go to writeresponse.com slash relatable. That is rightresponse.com. Oh, sorry, writeresponse ministries.com. Want to get that right.

Right response ministries.com slash relatable. Right response ministries. com slash relatable. In the midst of our current cancel culture and all the craziness that's going on where anyone can be. canceled for the smallest offense. Christians need to firmly be rooted in the never-ending love of God. And at the end of this conversation, we are going to talk with Joel about what that looks like, what that has looked like as he has pastored his church and helped them navigate through not

just the cultural changes that are happening, not just cancel culture, but also the regulations that are affecting his church there in California and how he has led bravely, according to scripture, his congregation and making sure that he is leading them in the right response of worship to our God who is supreme over every earthly authority. So make sure you go to right response ministries.com slash relatable. Again, that's right response ministries.com slash relatable. Okay, that is our entire preamble. The moment you have all been waiting for it, here again is Pastor Jeff Durbin. So what do you do with something like 2 Timothy 3 then that talks? about in the last days, how things will just be really bad. I mean, we've always seen lovers of

self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to parents. Those kind of people have always existed. But what does this mean that in these, in the last days, there will come times of difficulty? I mean, obviously, from my perspective, I would have taken that to mean that the world is going to get worse and worse and worse. So how do you interpret that? Yes, that's such important question because it gets to the question of like last days, um, um, um, the end of the age, uh, the constant discussion really you see throughout the New Testament, the day of the Lord, he's coming quickly, those sorts of things. It's very, very important and has everything to do with this discussion here. Um, and I, I, I want to make sure I do this in a way that's helpful to

everybody and I don't just, uh, just do it as sort of like pot shot sort of thing, like a verse here here, but just sort of give an overarching thing that we can all challenge ourselves on and go study. As you read a New Testament, one of the things that atheists will often use against us, and this is, this was actually demonstrated in the debate between Christopher Hitchens and Douglas Wilson at Westminster, atheists will have their fallback moment, their chestnut argument, and that's that Jesus didn't know the time of his coming. Why? Well, because you Christians are saying that these passages about him coming quickly and all the rest, all this stuff, and this generation, you're saying that's future to us, but clearly the text says it was supposed to happen in their day.

So clearly he's a false prophet. You guys are nuts. It's an important discussion because it is true. The New Testament is filled. It is absolutely chocked full of passages that talk about last days coming quickly. Ever I will see him. You have the king, you have his winnowing fork is in his hands. the axes are delayed at the root of the trees. Some of you standing here will not die, will not taste death until you see the son of man coming in his kingdom.

You have passages like Matthew 10. Jesus actually tells his disciples in Matthew 10, the people who are in front of them, him, he says, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the son of man comes. So these disciples in front of him, they won't even finish going through the cities of Israel before he returns. In judgment. This isn't the second coming. This is in judgment. It's a common theme in the Old Testament. Yawbe coming in judgment. Day of the Lord concepts in the Old Testament is all over the Old Testament. Day of the Lord is a day of judgment, by the way. So when we talk about this concept in the New Testament of last days and end of the age, we're not talking about the last days of human history. We're talking about the last days of the expectation of the destruction of the old covenant. people, sorry, I would say the covenant breakers of the old covenant order, and the new covenant. So it's old covenant, new covenant themes. So they were expecting the last days of the old covenant.

They were expecting the end of the old covenant age. They knew they were in this transition period because the old covenant is still hanging around with its remnants, but it's a defunct order. It's over. It was finished. Well, Jesus says it is finished. The temple veil ripped in half. access to God is open up now to the people of God and to the Holy of Holies. It's a very big deal,

but they're still doing sacrifices. They're still performing sacrifices. There's still a priest who's going on Yom Kippur and trying to offer sacrifices after the sacrifice of Jesus. This stuff is still hanging out. To the degree that the writer of Hebrews, before the destruction of Jerusalem, is warning those Jewish Christians don't go back. Do not go back because he's coming quickly. He's not going to delay. He's about to come destroy these things which have been made so that that which has not been made will remain forever. These remnants of the old covenant order about to be destroyed, they were in the death rows of that old covenant order about to be completely destroyed. Judgment was coming. And so we talk about in the last days, that's, I believe, the last days of the old covenant.

And what's interesting is we have to think about who's being talked to here. The Apostle Paul is writing to a pastor, his son in the faith, and he's warning this pastor in his day that in the last days, though, will come times of difficulty for people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to the parents, ungrateful, and grateful and holy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power, he says to Timothy, avoid such people. For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burden with sins, and let astray by various passions, always learning and never able to arrive in a knowledge of the truth. And then he names people just as Janice and Jambrius opposed Moses. So these men also oppose the truth. Men corrupted and mined disqualified regarding the faith, but they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all as was that of those two men. So they will not get very far, as was that of those men. He says, you, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life.

So I would say in terms of reading these texts, we have to think about audience who's writing, what's the time period, and we think about last days. I think it's important for us to recognize that the, I'm trying to make this as simple as possible, the Old Testament tells you about the coming of the Messiah, the salvific elements of it. It tells us about the salvation, the forgiveness, all the nations coming to God. But it's really, really clear. In the Old Testament, verse after verse after verse, tells us that when Messiah comes, it's also going to be a time of judgment upon the covenant breakers. You read that in the last book of the Old Testament in Malachi chapter 3 and in 4. The promises the Messiah is coming.

He's coming to his temple. And he's going to judge the covenant breakers. There's going to be a judgment upon the covenant breakers. The promise actually in Isaiah 65 is that he is actually going to have his servants, God's servants are going to eat, but they are going to starve. They will drink, but they will be thirsty. And God says he will call his people by a new name. So he's going to judge the covenant breakers, and he is going to give his people a new name. But what's interesting here is this theme is salvation and judgment.

Old Testament is like this. Salvation and judgment. salvation to the ends of the earth, judgment upon the covenant people. That's the theme. And as you get into a New Testament, that's all you see. John the Baptist comes in in Matthew chapter 3, and he says, the kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven, is at hand. He says his winnowing fork is in his hand. So judgment isn't on, it's not out there, it's in his hand.

The axe is laid at the root of the trees. And he tells those Jewish leaders, he says, to repent and bear fruit in keeping with repentance. instance, and then Jesus does the same thing throughout, say, Matthew, just take Matthew. He gives you Matthew 10, the warning that they won't even finish going through the cities of Israel before he returns in judgment. Matthew 16. Some of them standing there wouldn't die until they saw the kingdom come. You have, of course, Matthew 23, the promises of judgment given to them even by way of a picture

and story. He says, well, so there's a vineyard owner. And he keeps sending people to the vineyard. And, you know, as he keeps sending people to the vineyard, you know, they beat one, they stone one. And he says, okay, well, I'll send my son to the vineyard to get the fruit of the vineyard. And he says, and then he sends his son, and they see the son. And they say, oh, look, here's the air. Let's destroy him and let's take his inheritance.

And Jesus tells the Jewish leadership of his day in Jerusalem. He says, what do you think the owner of the vineyard is going to do when he finds out what they've done to his son? And they go, oh, he'll destroy those miserable wretches, and he'll give it out to people who will give them the, fruit of it. And he goes, yeah, that's you. And he says, the stone of the builder's rejected has become the chief cornerstone. And he tells them that that's going to be you. You're going to be destroyed. And then he gives the parable of the wedding invitation. He says, he asked the people who are supposed to come and they don't want to come. And so then he says, okay, well, then you start inviting everybody. And what's interesting there is he gives a warning about judgments. He says he

sends his armies, the king sends his armies and destroys their city. So there's this promise of judgment on the covenant breakers in the Old Testament, you see the theme through the new, and the expectation is the last days or the coming quickly of the Lord Jesus. This coming judgment is going to happen in their time and their generations. They understood they were at the edge of the destruction of that old covenant order and the end of the old covenant age. And so all of these promises throughout the New Testament, can I just give you a couple here real fast, Ellen? Go for it. Okay. Sorry, I know. I'm trying to give you like this. I do have a, I have a couple questions, but I'll go ahead and say what you're going to say,

because you might just answer my question. Okay. So in terms of the things we have to contend with, I'm a Christian apologist, a philosopher, a Christian philosopher. I think it's important for us to build to defend our faith, and we have to be aware of what people are saying about Jesus, about the Bible, and we need to come back with meaningful, true, biblical responses. And this whole discussion of last days, end of the age, coming quickly,

All those things that are throughout, we have to have an answer that is meaningful and coherent and faithful to the text. So just a couple things. Just as some examples. Matthew 3-2, the kingdom of heaven is in hand. Matthew 3-7, who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come? The axes are already laid at the root of the trees, Matthew 3-10. His wondering fork is in his hand, Matthew 3-12. The kingdom of heaven is in hand, Matthew 10-7.

Again, Matthew 10, 23, you won't finish going through the cities of Israel until the son of man comes. Matthew 1223, the age about to come. Number of Matthew 1627, the son of man is about to come in the glory of his father with his angels, and he will recompense every man according to his deeds. There are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the son of man coming in his kingdom, 1628. And as you go throughout, I'm going to try to get some other books here, some other texts in a New Testament. give you an idea here. Acts 2, 16 through 17. This is the famous sermon or preaching of Peter at Pentecost.

Acts 2, 16 through 17, I think this answers the question of last days. This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel, and it shall be in the last days. This is important. Everybody knows this text. This is Pentecost. So this is a very big deal. As Peter, Peter's preaching and everyone's seeing all of the tongues and these miraculous gifts. They're speaking in other languages to the people. They're understanding them in their own language. It's a pretty amazing thing. The Spirit of God's poured out.

What Peter does is he says, this, no, these people aren't drunk like you think. This is that which Joel spoke about. And in Joel, Joel says, in the last days, I'll pour out my spirit. He says, your sons and your daughters will prophesy. your old men will dream dreams. And he says, until what? Judgment. So it's supposed to be, they were supposed to see in Joel, too.

The last day's context was going to be this time of miraculous events. And then judgment upon whom, the covenant breakers. What the inspired apostle Peter says is what they're seeing is what Joel said. This is what Joel said. So Joel's talking about the last days before the coming of judgment on the covenant breakers, and the inspired apostle says, this is that. This is what Joel was talking about. And you can keep going. Let's see, let's see, as you go through the New Testament, there's, I mean, there's over 100 verses. Romans 16, 20, the God of Peace will crush Satan, will soon crush Satan under your feet.

It says, okay, here we go, right here. First Corinthians 1011. Now Paul says, these things, the examples from the Old Testament, were written for our instruction. He's talking to first century Christians, upon whom the end of the ages have come. So he says, here's an example, and to the first century Corinthians, he says, these examples are written for us, who, the first century Corinthians. He says, upon whom the end of the ages has come. So the apostle Paul believed that the end of the age had come upon those first century Christians. you can continue on, but I think some popular ones

would be, for example, from the book of Revelation, and I'll just read him to just quickly to show his bond servants that things which must shortly take place, Revelation 1-1, the time is near Revelation 1-3. Nevertheless, what you have, hold fast until I come, Revelation 2, 25. I'm coming quickly, Revelation 3-11. He says, behold, I'm coming quickly, Revelation 22, 12. And yes, I'm coming quickly, Revelation 2220.

And this one, do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book. What book? The book of Revelation for the time is near Revelation 2210. Real quick, Daniel 8, there's a prophecy where Daniel is told to seal up the words of the vision for the time is a little far off. We were talking a matter of hundreds of years. So Daniel gets a vision, and he's told seal up the vision for it's for a long time from now. but it was, you know, hundreds of years. In Revelation, John said, John's told, don't seal the words of the prophecy of this book.

It says, for the time is near. So in terms of how God tells time, we can see that there are time indicators in a New Testament that demonstrate that there is an impending, looming judgment, a quick judgment, end-of-the-age context. They were in the last days of something. And I think we need to take those seriously.

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this T-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts.

I hope you'll join us. Okay. So by covenant breakers, you were talking about Israel, correct? Yeah, I would say first century Jerusalem specifically. And the judgment was the destruction of the temple. You're talking about 70 AD and the Great Tribulation. was under Nero, is that correct? Yes, yeah.

Okay. It climaxed around the time of Nero, during Nero's reign. So in order to believe that Revelation is talking about something that was going to happen, you have to believe, obviously, that Revelation was written before 70 AD, correct? That's right. But some people contend that Revelation was actually written like in 96 AD. Some people say that it was written around like 68 AD. So you have to believe that it was.

wasn't written, you have to reject what some people say the evidence is that Revelation was written after the destruction of the temple in 70 AD to say that it was talking about the destruction of the temple in Nero and all of that, correct? So, yeah, there's an important element here in terms of the truth, the truth, there are post-millanians that disagree on interpretation of revelation. Who knew Christians would disagree and argue? There are post-millionists who do disagree historically, I mean, Christians have had a variety of different understandings of different sections of the book Revelation or the whole thing in total. But there are post-millennialists who do have different perspectives of how do you work out some of the details in the book Revelation. Some would say in early dating is not absolutely necessary and it doesn't do any damage to post-millalism as a total overarching perspective.

But yes, my own perspective is that the external and internal evidence, that the Book of Revelation was written before the fall of Jerusalem, I think is overwhelming. And I was in Bible College, and we were taught about the dating of the Book Revelation. I was taught that it was around 96 AD during Domitian's reign and persecution, which, by the way, was actually a pretty limited persecution at that time. It wasn't as dramatic as the persecution that was pre-70 AD. Historically, actually, this was the thing that startled me. Historically, you can see that some of the giants and some of the

greatest scholars in history all dated the book Revelation pre-70 AD. The dating it during Demetian's reign in 96 AD is based upon really a single ambiguous, as a statement written in Greek, it's written in ambiguous Greek, well, I'd say written in Greek in an ambiguous way. And it's not actually overly clear, which is why Christians in history have actually disagreed on that dating because it's based on a statement from one early disciple of the Apostle John, or a disciple of a disciple of the Apostle John. And so we have to actually go to, well, okay, let's look at the text and what does it say? Well, in terms of internal dating, I'll just just, I don't want to, we probably want to spend

a million years on this, but in terms of internal dating of the Book of Revelation, John is told a lot of things related to the soon-coming judgment. Again, I'm coming quickly. Behold, I'm coming quickly. I'm coming quickly. Things which must shortly take place, Revelation 22, 6. Every eye will see him, even those who pierced him. And so you have those things in terms of time indicators. But internally, the Apostle John, and this is what R.C. Sproul said. He said this is one of the most devastating things in terms of internal evidence of the early

dating in the book Revelation. The Apostle John is told to go measure the temple, which apparently is still standing in his day. And so that's an internal dating. And you look at the external evidence. I think it's pretty overwhelming. You have examples in history. As you look at scattered evidence throughout history, and everybody could do this and try to support their view for whatever. I think you go look at the mass overwhelming external external evidence. Church fathers have argued that John wrote revelation and got the revelation of Jesus Christ. After being boiled in a pot of oil by Nero, Nero, the neuronic persecution of Christians had been in full effect about this time

during the 60s of the first century. Of course, Nero was a beast. He was referred to as a beast. Nero was a disgusting, disgraceful, despicable man. Caligula really really. got that emperor worship cult going in terms of the temples you can go worship at and worship the emperor. The emperor is God. But Nero, he turned it up big time. And Nero demanded worship. And Nero was a part of that persecution of the Christians, not just by decree, but he was actually

involved himself. This will get kind of graphic, but I think it's important to understand his beastly nature. Nero would have Christians rounded up in the streets and brought to his garden parties. They would tie them to a stake, wrap them in pitch, and they would light them on fire, and they would use these burning Christians as Roman candles to light up his garden parties, and he would ride his chariot through these Christians. Yeah. There's even examples of him getting Christians, tying them to a stake, and then covering himself in the skins of animals and trying to eat them.

He was a disgusting man. He kicked his pregnant wife to death. He castrated and married like a 10-year-old boy. He was a vile, vile man. And Nero was responsible in many ways for this intense persecution so that during his reign, Peter's killed, Paul's killed. This is interesting. The only apostle that survived to the destruction of Jerusalem

and saw that judgment come was the Apostle John. And is it an interesting that at the end of the gospel according to John, Peter's kind of ticked because Jesus tells them, you know, when you're old, people are going to take you where you don't want to go and essentially telling him he's going to be martyred. And then Peter's response is he looks over at John and he goes, what about him? And Jesus says, if I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow me. And John was actually the only person that survived that whole great tribulation and destruction of Jerusalem in terms of the apostles. that was able to see all of that. But history tells us that John actually was boiled in a pot of oil by Nero.

He didn't die, which freaked Nero out, because Nero was a very superstitious man. Yeah. And freak Nero out. So Nero sent John into exile to Pat Moss, which is where John wrote Revelation. And there's a number of other external evidences in terms of timing and the book of Revelation, but there's internal as well. But yes, I think that you can read the book of Revelation as something written pre-7080, and I think it could be demonstrated clearly.

If people wanted more on this and a very historical, very scholarly work, read the book before Jerusalem fell by Dr. Kenneth Gentry. It's pretty amazing, and it's actually, I don't always say that I recommend really scholarly resources just generally because people just get way down and that's just too much too heavy for me. But Gentry writes it in such a fun way. It's very scholarly and such a really fun and interesting way. I mean, I was like, it was like two in the morning. I was in my kitchen reading it.

And it's a scholarly work. Yeah. So for the people who are looking around, obviously we go to scripture for our interpretation or our understanding of what the end times is not just what's going on around us. But of course, it is very tempting to look at what's going on around us. And yes, we know there have been very bad times in history, but I think for a lot of Christians, this seems maybe more dire than ever. We see America as the kind of the last beacon of liberty.

And we're just wondering, okay, if Christians are persecuted here, if it's not safe for Christians to speak up here, then we don't have another refuge and things are just going to get terrible and worse and worse because we have no hope of, you know, another nation where you have free speech and freedom of religion and things like that. People see what seems like the ushering in of Christian persecution. And I think are thinking, okay, well, this is an indication that these are the last days because it's about to get worse than it ever has been before. What would you say to those people that are like,

how can you possibly think that things are getting better and better when things are clearly so bad right now? Yeah. It's such a great question. It's so important because it comes down to what you just said. like we need to believe what the word of God says, not what our experience is, not what our inner monologue is. And by the way, this goes across the board. Like, I mean, even if we disagree on eschatology, I think all of us need to recognize how important this is because it is the healing that we need in terms of people who struggle with loneliness and depression and fear of the future, all those things.

We'd say, don't believe the experience. Don't believe the circumstances. Don't believe the honor monologue. God's word is sure. God's word is true. It's not just an eschatology question. This is deep. I'm a pastor.

This is a deeply past story. issue. It goes way beyond the category of eschatology and goes down to our deeply intimate relationship with God. What will we believe? Our circumstances, the moment that's in front of us, our inner monologue, what voice will we listen to? This is the most critical question, and it goes into so many areas. But in this question, when people say, well, look how bad things are now, look how awful things are right now. My answer is, well, I start this way. In history, you realize that almost every generation of Christians has had a moment where they've thought exactly that. I would say things like, we have to grapple with the fact that 200, 300 years ago, Christians were pointing to these very same passages or 200 years ago.

Right. People were saying, see, that's our time. That's us. People were pulling passages from, say, Revelation or other books, and they were saying, oh, this thing, that resembles the locomotive or this resembles like this thing. And they were trying to find from their day examples of proof of that this is the last days. We're truly in the last days now. He's really coming quickly now. And so I would say that, you know, just know that this has been a pattern for Christians through history who have had a futurist perspective.

They always think that their day is the last day. And they always think that their moment is the worst they've ever seen. Well, what I would say to try to comfort Christians in this area is please think about this. Please think about this. We follow a man who was a Palestinian Jew, crucified as a common criminal under Roman rule. He was resurrected the third day. He stood in front of very confused disciples that weren't even clear in understanding of what the heck was going on. So he had to even chastise these disciples in the road to Emmaus where they're like a bunch of sad saps walking on the road.

And like we thought he was the Messiah, not the Messiah. And Jesus is like slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken. And then he takes him through the whole Old Testament. It's like, this is all about me. So even they're like, wait, what's going on? And then Jesus stands before a very limited crowd of disciples at that point. And what he does is before he ascends in Matthew 28, he says to them, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. We're going to stop for a second and think about this.

He has a small band of followers here in front of him. and he says all the authority, not just in the spiritual realm, heaven, but here on earth, during Roman rule? Like, no, Caesar's got, he's got all the authority. And this Palestinian Jew just murdered by the Romans, and of course raised again, has the audacity to say that all the authority in heaven and on earth has been past tense given to me. That's that kingdom mindset, I think, that's important for us to grapple with in terms of, Did Jesus believe that he brought the kingdom?

Did he believe that he had that messianic throne and the kingship? I think it's important because he says that all of it's his. He's not waiting for the authority. It's all mine right now. He says, go therefore, because it's all mine, and he says, you know, win the nations and baptize them, teach them to obey all that I've commanded you. That's how Jesus departs. And there's a small band of followers there before Jesus.

They had to be like looking up going, Uh, what? Yeah. Like, uh, like this world is ginormous and as complexities of the Roman Empire and paganism and all this evil. And I always try to remind people that in many ways you can look at it this way. We started 2,000 years ago with 11 very confused disciples. 11 because we lost one. Judas was a devil, right? Right. So 11 very confused disciples. And Christians in the 21st century today will be on radio programs streaming live glory. globally around the world, talking about the supremacy of Jesus Christ over all things with Christians who love and worship the Lord God of Israel because of Jesus on all over the planet. And we'll be saying things are just so bad. They're just getting so terrible. It's so awful. It's like we started with 11 disciples. Now we have believers all over this planet who bow the need to Jesus Christ as Savior and as Lord. And yes, we have tough things in front of us. And I want to say this. There's a huge misconception, a massive. misconception and it is always used as an argument and it's a very poor one. People say, well, you know, if post-millennialism is true, how can you say things are getting better and better and better when look at the world around us? I would say, well, no, Jesus said that the kingdom of God was like a mustard seed that becomes a tree. So his perspective of the kingdom was not that the

kingdom drops out of the sky like an army, but that the kingdom grows from this very small seed into a large tree that ultimately is bigger than a man and has fruit and all the rest, the birds of the air nest in its branches. And it's like leaven in a lump of dough. Jesus is the one that said it was going to be small to large growth. He's the one that said that. Daniel's the one that said that in Daniel too. And so we should expect in this fallen world, as Jesus brings his salvific rule and reign globally through the proclamation of the gospel and the transformation of people's lives, we should anticipate, of course, in this fallen world, there is difficulty and there is trial, and there is moments of victory, and there are moments of failure from our perspective.

God's in total control of that. But I was going to just sort of like, I want to just push my brothers and sisters and say, stop and think about what you're saying. You can preach the gospel right now literally globally live by pushing a button on this silly device. and you can tell the world about Jesus, and people come to Christ hearing the gospel through this little device even. We get word all the time about people from other countries that watch our content and come to know Jesus Christ. There's people in other continents that have heard our content years ago, came to Christ, and they're now pastors in foreign countries. When someone says it's getting worse and worse, I want to say, you should probably go back to the first century and live there,

a bit and tell me how we're... Right. So obviously, like you said, we have more and more believers, but at the same time, there seems to be a strong, maybe not stronger than ever, but stronger than we've seen in our lifetimes, a centralized aversion to Christianity and allowing Christians to have the ability to do what you do, to be able to spread the gospel globally through a device. So would you say, that even if we do go through a time of severe persecution, even here in America, where voices are stifled and deplatformed and canceled and all of those things, would you just say that is just kind of, that's obviously not an indication according to you of anything contrary to the post-millennialist view, but simply that we are going through a stage in human history that all that Christians

throughout time have always gone through of persecution, but still the gospel is, advancing and the kingdom is growing. Is that what you would argue that even if we are facing a sort of tribulation to come or a sort of trial and persecution to come, that still the gospel is being spread and the kingdom is advancing? Yes. And so I'll answer that question in two ways. One, my way of just giving a direct answer and then two, given you why, I believe it, in terms of like, well, what are you hanging on to even think that. Yes, I think that one of the problems is that we tend, as Christians, particularly in the West, in the United States, we tend to think about America as the symbol of victory and

like the sign of how we're doing, sort of Christianity-wise. So when America does poorly, we think, oh, the end is nearer and we've lost all hope sort of a thing. And it's like, why do we think about ourselves in this way? there's nothing in scripture that tells us that America is going to make it to the end. Yeah. Well, I think it's because we're the last place that we're the last place that has constitutionalized this idea of an in alienable right of free speech.

And we're just wondering, okay, well, if you can't speak freely here, I mean, of course, you still share the gospel, but where can you go without fear of punishment? I think that's why there's a fear of America being kind of the last stand. I know, I know, I know, no. So don't get me wrong. I'm very patriotic. I'm in love with our. No, I know.

I know. I know you are. And but you're making a great point in terms of like, but still, it's, there's still like, oh my gosh, what's happened to us? Well, Ali, I would just say, like, this is kind of, I think, an indictment upon us in many ways. When you look at America in our origins, you've got to start further back than 17, You've got to look at covenanters and the colonies and all that took place to get us to this place. You had very faithful colonies that, you know, had state, they even had state churches.

They're making treaties and the name of the triune god of the Bible. Like the Christian worldview is in the atmosphere. So the benefits of the United States of America currently are from the Christian worldview, the freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the freedom to own arms to protect your family, the right against warrantless search and seizure, the ability to not have. to self-incriminate. That's all from scripture. Like it's literally from the Bible. And but two ago, okay, man, we're losing this. I would say, where's our salt and light? Those Christians that gave this to us, they were the ones that were courageous and fought

and labored and spoke and spoke prophetically. Let's be honest. Goodness gracious, over the last couple of generations, the last, well, let's say just the last generation. I believe that that what's happening around us is an indictment upon the church. I do. I think it's an indictment upon the church. We've got great godly men in the pulpit. We're teaching and are courageous. You've got men like John MacArthur. You've got giants of the faith. Yes. But largely, largely, we've been afraid to cause any trouble. We want to just be loved by everybody. We're not courageous, so we're not salty and we're not light to the culture around us. And I want to say it's historic judgments. I believe that. So give an example. In Psalm 2, it says, the father says to the son, ask of me, and I'll give you

the nations for your inheritance, the very ends of the earth for your possession. Now, I don't think Jesus forgot to ask. So I believe the father gave it to Jesus, and that's where we're at now with the great commission, I'll get in all the nations. But the father actually says to the son, sorry, to the kings of the earth. He says, be wise, O kings. He says, obey the son or kiss the son, lest you perish. And so I think there are historical judgments in history that we should anticipate as people are unfaithful to the sun, as they don't yield to his authority and his kingship, they disobey his law, they live in injustice, we should anticipate that nation

receiving historical judgments. We can't live in sin as a nation and not have God respond because the goal of the kingdom, Isaiah 42. This is one of the goals, not the goal, one of them. Isaiah 42, it says that the servant is coming, that's Messiah, and it talks about him being this humble servant. He's, you know, bruised, read, he will not break, and a faintly burning wick, he will not quench. It says he will bring forth justice on the earth. He will not grow faint or weary until he has done it, and the coastlands are waiting for his law. That's the promise of the Messiah and his coming justice and his righteousness and rule.

Now, I believe Jesus is in the process of that now, and I believe as a nation disobeys God, especially a nation alley like ours, my goodness, we've got all of these giants behind us who handed us all these blessings. You've got people, again, in states that would acknowledge the triune God of the Bible in their treaties, and they acknowledge the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Now we're a nation. People say, like, you know, we need justice, police justice. I'm like, okay, what's it look like? Like, do you even know why we have the amendment against warrantless searches and seizures?

Do you know why we have the right to remain silent? People don't even know why you have that. And the answer is, oh, because in these verses here, because these scriptures, this is God's justice. People are crying out for justice, but they don't want God's justice. Yeah. They don't want God's justice. And so because of that, I believe we see in history as the gospel goes forth, it penetrates, it impacts. There is the duty of faithfulness and obedience to the sun who is ruling and reigning now,

and we should anticipate historical judgments upon any nation that doesn't obey the sun. But the ultimate place that history is going, this is a scatter. Genesis 4910, Shiloh is coming, and to him shall be the obedience of the nations. It's interesting because Paul uses that language in Romans 1 and 16, and he says that the goal is to bring the nations to God, to the obedience of faith among all the nations. He says it at the first chapter and last chapter of Romans, his explanation of the gospel, that the goal is the obedience of the nations.

Well, that's Genesis 49-10, the obedience of the nations. How about the promise to Abraham? Abraham, your descendants are going to be as numerous as the stars, so much for a small victorious minority in history, numerous as the stars, that's a heck of a lot of stars. Like the sand on the seashore. That's a lot of descendants. That doesn't sound like a defeat in history to me in terms of a small remnant in all of history.

That sounds like a lot. But then you get on to Isaiah chapter two, and the promise is that the Lord is going to draw the nations. They're going to stream up to God's mountain, which is weird because water streams down. But it says they stream up to the mountain of God, and that there's going to be salvation. and the law, the Torah, is going to go forth from Zion, from the people of God. So the nations are coming to God, the law is going to go forth from the people of God. Then you have Isaiah 9. One is coming who's the son and the child, and his name should be called Wonderful and counselor,

the mighty God, the father of eternity. And it says, of the increase, this is interesting, of the increase of his government and of peace, there will be no end. so his government and his peace there'll be an increase and there'll be no end on the throne of David to establish it with justice and righteousness forevermore and the amazing thing is

when you say and everyone says and I even have moments where you see things getting awful and you're like how is this ever going to get overcome? The answer from Isaiah 9, 6 through 7 is this. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this. Then Isaiah 42 is that passage about

the justice being established on the earth and he's not going to go faint or weary until he does it. Psalm 2, the nations are given to Jesus. The kings are warned, you better obey the son or you're going to perish. Psalm 22 is the famous passion of the Messiah passage where his hands and his feet are pierced. He's pierced and his hearts like wax melted within him. They surround him like dogs. They mock him. They divide his garments among them and cast lots for his clothing in the very same passage of the passion of the Messiah as you keep singing the song. It says, and all the families of the earth will return to worship the Lord.

So the impact of the passion is that all the families of the earth return to worship the Lord. Psalm 72 says, He shall have dominion from sea to sea from the river to the earth. Psalm 1101 The Lord said into my Lord sit in my right hand And Jesus is by the way seated there Until I make all your enemies a footstool for your feet That's messianic New Testament that's current

Daniel chapter 7 He's looking in the night visions and it's interesting He says he sees one like a son of man coming on the clouds of heaven By the way cloud comings in the Old Testament Are judgment comings And it says And he comes up to the ancient of days and was presented before him.

And it says to him, Jesus, was given dominion, kingdom, and glory that all the peoples should serve him. People are very tribe tongue, people in nature are going to serve him. It says his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which will not pass away, and his kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.

That's Daniel 7. And we could just keep going and going and going all these passages about victory. So if you ever say to me, how are you believing this with things as tough as they are right now in the moment? I would say because the promise is he shall have dominion and he is winning the world. All the families are going to return.

And so my duty is to be faithful to preach the gospel to win the nation to Christ, the nations to Christ. And I can't look at the current circumstances and say, well, I guess we're losing. I guess he's not going to have victory because God does work throughout history. through a seed to tree picture. And you can kind of see through the description of all of that, how your eschatology determines how you live your life and the things you care about. Now, obviously, as you've said, as I've said, pre-millennialist and post-millennialists can both be obedient and both be compelled to be obedient

and faithful Christians, even if they're coming from a different kind of perspective on certain things. However, as far as things like the so-called culture wars, as far as things like affecting what laws are implemented, you do see a tendency sometimes among pre-millennialists, not me, but some to say, well, that doesn't really matter. Those things don't really matter if, like you said, the world is just going to hell in a handbasket, then all I have to do is kind of hide away and wait for Jesus to come back. but if you do believe that you are advancing God's kingdom here and that his authority is increasing and that you are playing a part in that, then you are going to try to affect what's called, you know, the public sector. And so you definitely see how eschatology is practical and it affects what you do. Now, someone like me or someone like John McArthur, you know, maybe you would say that this is inconsistent with our eschatology. I obviously care about the culture wars because I see how it affects my children and how it affects future generations.

And I would say John McArthur does too. Maybe not in the same way, but, you know, pre-millennialists do care about what's going on in the political world too. But, you know, I don't know. I guess our motivation is just different. One of obedience and not necessarily one that the post-Molennialist has, but I do kind of see some inconsistency there for sure. what we use, for example, like I kind of feel like your eschatology could be used by social justice advocates to say we are trying to make God's kingdom that we see as God's kingdom, totally equal, equitable, whatever, here on earth, because that's what we are called to do.

Whereas someone like John McArthur would say that is why post-millanialism is wrong, because it falsely tries to bring God's kingdom here on earth when that's not what we are called to do. And he would lump post-millennialism maybe into kind of a social justice theology, which is obviously not something that you hold to. Does that make sense? Right. Yeah, yeah. And historically, you can't make any real, genuine, meaningful theological connection between, say, the social justice movement of day or liberal social justice movements and theologies of the past to a biblical, historical post-millianism. Because what we would say, is, is that the gospel is the transforming force in the world.

Yeah. Well,'s hearts and minds have to be changed by the gospel. They have to repent and bow the need of Jesus and trust in Jesus Christ. So the solution, the transformation of the world happens as people are saved. Yeah. So it's gospel that's up front. But it's actually clear in Scripture that as the nations come to God, as people are saved, that now that law, his law, his standards, his justice is on their hearts.

They desire. So it's actually where Jesus took us. He says, all authority is mine, heaven and earth. He says, go, and he says, disciple, teach and disciple the nations, baptize them. And he says, teach them to obey all that I've commanded you. So it starts with conversion. Yeah. And then it turns into, and now training and righteousness.

And so we're trying to follow that perspective. But isn't it? It's actually powerful thought. People today who are crying out, even as silly evangelicals that are just acting like they have no understanding whatsoever in terms of like righteous standards of justice, where do we get them? And history of the church, all of this is wrapped up. And there's just such confusion. When evangelicals even today, squishy evangelicals are saying social justice, social justice, ask them, what do you mean by that? Yeah. Like, what's your standard of justice? Like, what do you? you mean? Where are they getting? Where are they getting their standards of justice? They're getting them from the world. They're getting them from neo-Marxists. They're getting them from classical Marxists. They're getting them from people who are socialists. They're not getting this. They're not post-millennialists. They're not trying to bring kingdom in through biblical standards of justice.

They're trying to bring this weird version of kingdom, which doesn't even have Christ as ruling, ultimately in with ungodly and unbelieving standards of justice. They're not even going to the Bible. Yes. But here's what's powerful. You and I love this country, and we're both fighting regardless of ascotology. We're laying faithfulness to Jesus, love for my neighbor demands, I say something right now. But we're living in a country with all the benefits of the Christian worldview.

It is interesting that the dominant eschatology in America early. on was post-millennialism, that the Puritans were post-millennial. My friend Doug likes to say, there's two reasons that I'm a post-millennialist. He says, one, it's a lot of fun, and two, Jonathan Edwards believed it. Some of the giants of the faith in history historically were post-millennialists, but I think it's powerful in terms of like, look at culture and society. When you had Puritans who were post-millennial in their perspective, what did they do? they established communities where they saw Jesus Lordship from the bottom to the top.

When they pointed to, when there were issues of justice, they said, well, what does God say? And they would point to his law. Now, we're not saying these are perfect people that did everything right. We're just saying, like, in practice, their understanding was Jesus is Lord overall, and our duty is to win the world to Christ. And if we have questions about justice, we point to what God's word says. And so they built a community, a culture, a society that saw God's revelation as supreme. This is the standard. And then what did we all get?

Well, we all got the benefits of that because the impact of the Puritans upon the colonies and the West gave us the nation that we have today. Even if people like Benjamin Franklin weren't Christians, they still were beneficiaries of the Christians. worldview and they accepted it. But that's life and labor of faithful Christians before, many of them post-millennial. And it's interesting to note that the society they built was a society that said God's word is the ultimate standard. They weren't just saying like the goal is to bring the kingdom in through these standards of justice.

No, these are people like Edwards who was, you ever hear of the Great Awakening? It was like, it was all of the gospel and repent. and faith. The goal is bring them to Jesus, and then once they're saved, you say, and this is the standard God's work, that's post-millennialism. Yes, social justice people, Christians, professing Christians, are working from the outside end. They believe that first you have to, whatever it is, instill these anti-racism policies, and then that will eventually change people's heart, whereas the Christian says it starts with the regeneration of the heart, and that is then how we affect societies and laws.

That would be the distinction, correct? One of them. That's probably the most important one. So just the final question, when Jesus is coming in, riding on the horse with the tattoo and the sword and all of that, do you believe that that is coming soon? Ask that again. So you're talking about... When Jesus is coming back.

When do you believe that that's going to happen or am I a misunderstanding your... I was going to Revelation. Okay, so here we go. I was like, we're going to be on here for another hour. No, no, no, no. Just quick answer. I believe that we're in the infancy of the church. Oh, okay.

Wow. I believe we're in the infancy of the church. I think we've got a long way to go. If we had a bunch of time just to go through the text of the Old Testament and the New Testament that talk about the kingdom and the Messiah and what it's going to look like, And it's very, by the way, it's very earthly, like there's earthy promises to this kingdom and spiritual. But it's comprehensive and beautiful and powerful. And if we're to take Paul at his timeline, all enemies are under the feet of Jesus and then death will be destroyed.

I look around today and I say, well, we've got a lot of victory, but there's a heck of a lot of enemies. And these enemies need to be converted. They need to come to Christ or put under the feet of Jesus. So when I look around the world today, I say, based upon what we see in Scripture about the victory of the Messiah and his kingdom in the world and the justice and the righteousness and peace that comes from that self-ific reign, I say, I think we have a long way to go. Can God perform miracles and change things quickly? Absolutely. But I think it's better to look at us as we're in the infancy of the church. We've got a long way to go.

We've got a lot to learn. And I think we've got a lot of courage that we need to bolster up and to have to actually go out and to be. bring the gospel. I think we have a long way to go personally, but I'd be happy. I'd be so happy if it was, you know, a major revival and transformation, and it was 100 years from now, God is sovereign, he can do that. But I think we're in the infancy of the church. Wow. Okay, well, I have a lot of more questions for you. I could talk to you for a really long time, but I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me for this hour and a half. I know people are going to get a lot from it. So thank you. Absolutely. Thank you, Allie.

Okay, so I know that you guys enjoyed that two-part series with Pastor Jeff Durbin. If you've got questions, if you've got comments, if you just have something to say, you can either reach out to Jeff Durbin. You can reach out to me and ask your questions. A lot of people have shared this on your story and you've been telling me just how this conversation made you think, and that is awesome. Any conversation that helps us think more critically and biblically, I count as a win, something that is edifying for the body of Christ.

Speaking of edifying the body of Christ, I want to introduce Pastor Joel Webbin, who I had a very edifying, encouraging conversation with about how churches, how Christians can navigate the craziness that's going on in our culture, particularly in relation to governments trying to shut down churches who are exercising their First Amendment right of gathering together and worshiping God. I got a lot of good wisdom and insight out of our conversation, and I'm so excited for you to listen. to it. So here is Pastor Joel Webin. Joel, thanks so much for being here. Yeah, glad to be here. Can you tell everyone who you are and what you do? Sure. My name is Joel Webbin. I'm a local pastor of a church in San Diego, California, and also the president of a ministry called Right Response Ministries. And what does right response ministries do? Basically, we do podcast, articles. We host sermon, sermon clips, we do interviews, things like that. So similar to like, well, Jeff Durbin, I guess, that you had on recently. I think you had again today. And so similar to like Apology of Church

slash Apology of Studios or like Tom Askell and Jared Longshore with Founders Ministry, trying to just be a blessing to the body of Christ at large. So you are kind of equipping Christians to be able to have the right response to a lot of the craziness that's going on in the world right now. changes, social changes, political changes, things like that. Is that true, a good description? Absolutely. So response, so two words, right response. Response comes from the fact that we're reformed. So we believe at the end of the day we love because God first loved us, 1 John 419. And so we believe that God is the great initiator and that all we ever do as mankind to simply respond to what God has done and continues to do for us through the person and work of Jesus Christ.

And so we're not trying to elicit an emotional response or love or salvation from God, but rather he initiates. We're responding to him. And then the word right is simply kind of a tipping of the hat to the regular principle of worship. So saying that not only is man required to respond, but God actually regulates by the agency of his word, the manner in which we respond. So when we worship, when we pray, all of the Christian life, our obedience is something that God regulates. It's not just a blank canvas for our own creative freedom, as sometimes Christians tend to think. And so we're saying that there is a man's responsibility is to respond, and there is a right response. And it's not just we put too many things, I think, in the church today into the subjective category.

Right. And I think there's more that's objective, regulated by God's word, than we're sometimes willing to admit. Now, a lot of people in your part of the country are especially allergic, it seems like, to objectivity, especially when it comes to theological. objectivity. How is your church navigating the crazy cultural waters that we've lived in for a long time, but they seem to be especially turbulent right now on top of some of the state's restrictions of how churches are able to behave and worship right now? Yeah, great question. So we were privileged to have our first illegal church service on April 26th, that Sunday. And so at the time in California, Emperor Newsom, its benevolent majesty, was not allowing for churches to gather in any capacity,

including for a time. We weren't even able to do a car service. And then eventually that was allowed because it was categorized as technology. So in the same way you could live stream because you're using technology, well, a car constitutes as a piece of technological, you know, equipment. And so you could do a service like that. But for a while, we couldn't even do the cars. And then for us, we, you know, we're a smaller church. We don't have our own building. And so we have rented a school historically. And so we weren't able to meet in the school, of course. And so we didn't have a parking lot. So what we did was an outdoor service, April 26. And it was an illegal church service. We had about two-thirds of our church come out. But it was difficult at the time because a lot of pastors really

nationwide, including guys that we love and highly, highly respect in the reformed, you know, Christian camp, we're still impression that, you know, as you're fully aware, you know, Romans 13, Romans 13, love your neighbor, love your neighbor. And we really kind of truncated, you know, the second greatest commandment of loving our neighbor to, you know, that we're, our neighbor is nothing more than a body, right? So we just, we love their physical help. Forgetting, I think, we're neglecting at least that our, our neighbor also has a soul. And so, you know, I think loving our neighbor, of course we're called to love our neighbor, but I think it's not so simplistic.

Our neighbor has a goal. And so we were working through that factor. We were working through what does it mean to actually obey Romans 13, you know, the highest civil magistrate in our land is not a human official by design and rightfully so, but rather a document. And it protects our freedom of worship and the right to peace. assemble. And so we work through that as elders in our church. And it was tough, you know, because there's so many guys that we've previously looked to that took initially a different stance. And some of those guys have come around now and we're very grateful for that. So the first thing that we did was we shut down for about four weeks and just trying to, because we didn't know, right?

So when big on, like, church is essential. But when we say that church is essential, we're not saying that it's essential under every single circumstance, right? So if the mayor of San Diego said, there's a tsunami, let's say Saturday evening, we get word that there's a tsunami coming to the city of San Diego and it's going to land at 10 a.m. Sunday morning. If I tell my congregation, hey, church is essential. We're going to gather. And if the tsunami comes and wipes us all out, so be it. That's the sovereign. That's foolish. Right. We head for the hills. Let's get out of the danger zone and we'll assemble and have church next week, maybe in somebody's backyard or whatever we say church is essential. We're not saying under any circumstances, but what we are saying

is that church is just as essential, and I would argue more, but just as essential is anything else, because in the tsunami hypothetical scenario, everything is closed. Grocery stores, closed, abortion clinics certainly are closed. You know, weed dispensaries are closed. And so all we're saying is that if anything else is being deemed as essential, then certainly the church should be included. And so what we did was we worked really hard to make sure that our Sunday morning gatherings were as safe, and I would argue, safer than going to the grocery store. And so therefore, the only question for us, theologically, was, well, what did Jesus say in the wilderness when he's tempted by Satan? He said that man shall not live by physical bread alone, but every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. And then the question became, well, we have our Bibles.

We can do our personal, you know, quiet time, devotions at home. We have the word of God Monday through Saturday. But the question became, but is there a unique or a specific word that proceeds from the mouth of God in the gathered assembly on the Lord's Day? And we believe that biblically there is, and that we live by that. So we live by the Word of God in our private devotions, but we also live by the Word which proceeds from the mouth of God that comes in that corporate Lord's Day gathering of things. And so we're like, man, we need this to live. And the same way we need to go to the grocery store, we need this. So if we can do this in a way that is prudent and just as safe as a grocery store, biblically, we can't argue that it's any less essential than a grocery store. So we're going to do it. And we believe that that was submitting to the highest authority in our land, namely the Constitution. And if a lesser civil magistrate, like a governor or a mayor, is disagreeing with the Constitution, then they're actually not obeying Romans 13. Romans 13 was not just given to the church. It was given also to lesser civil. magistrates. And so Gavin Newsom was in rebellion to the Word of God and in rebellion to his civil

magistrate. And so we were actually rebelling against a rebel in submission to the highest civil magistrate in our land and ultimately a submission to God. And that was our view from within about two weeks. So the first couple weeks, it's like, you know, we were told everybody was going to die. You know, 2.1 million, whatever it was, as soon as we realized, I don't know if that's quite accurate. then we arrived at this conclusion. Right. And I have made a very similar argument that, thankfully, in the United States, at least for now, the law of the land is the Constitution. And it doesn't bind its people.

It binds our magistrates. It binds the government. It says what the government can and cannot do. It is Gavin Newsom, for example, who is bound by the restrictions of the Constitution, not the citizen. Obviously, we have laws that are supposed to be in accordance to the Constitution, that we then have to obey, but you articulated that really well. What do you say then to the, as you said, the respectable Christian leaders across the country who have criticized what churches like yours have

done or John McArthur's have done, who have said, you know what, you're not trying hard enough to obey our earthly authorities as Romans 13 tells us to do. There are different, you know, there are a lot of different avenues. They would say that you can explore. You can do smaller house churches, you can continue to meet virtually, whatever. They would argue that someone like you or John McArthur, you're not trying hard enough to submit to earthly authorities according to Romans 13. What do you say to those pastors and leaders? Great question. So I get the sentiment, and certainly I've heard that from multiple pastors. You're not trying hard enough to be in submission to the civil magistrate. And I think, well, I feel quite strongly about this, but I think what I would say

is that the reason why you don't see us as really striving to be in submission to the civil magistrate is because you are under the impression that God has allowed for a much greater degree of liberty for his church and the means by which it gathers than the Bible actually says. So I think that part of the problem in all this and the reason why I think many churches really, really struggled and didn't necessarily come to the right conclusions and came later or still haven't come to the right conclusion in my assessment of the way that I would interpret scripture, I think is because the church in America has historically had pretty poor ecclesiology. So it's not like COVID-19 came on the scene and then all of a sudden, you know, we got bad theology. We respond as the church poorly to the restrictions that came due to COVID-19 because we already had poor ecclesiology. Churches didn't start live streaming their services, you know, four months ago, right? I mean, they've been doing this for quite a while. And so I think because of a bad understanding of the Lord's Day gathering, and I think a lot of people at the end of the day, they're like, all right, what, you know, even devout Christians, what I need is a sound doctrine. And that comes from faithful teaching. And I've got, you know, I've got at my disposal, ligamere and desire,

grace to you, founders, you know, all these guys. And but the reality is I don't think, and so I've written a little bit on this, but I wrote a piece really trying to highlight that, number one, church is essential, but number two, and I think it's got to be both. Church is also unique. There is something unique that happens when the people of God in local assemblies gathered together on the way. Lord's Day in order to administer the ordinary means of grace, which if I could sum that up would be we preach, it's all word-centric, Bible-centered. So it's we preach the word, pray the word, sing the word, and we see the word in the sacraments or the ordinances of the Lord's Supper and baptism. Those are the only images that God has prescribed by his words. We have, we see, in a sense, Christ in baptism and in the administration of the Lord's Supper.

And so we gather together for the ministering of these ordinary means of grace, preaching the word, praying the word, singing the word. And people say, well, I can sing at home. But the Bible is clear. Ephesians, we're addressing not just God, but one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. There's a horizontal element, a corporate element of the saints. You know, we're stirring one another up to love.

in good works through the preaching, the praying, the singing, and the scene. And we were called to do that physically gather together on the Lord's Day. And when that happens, Christ himself is present. The Spirit of the risen Christ is actually present in a particular way. And so I think people would say, good, reformed Christians in many regards, they would say, well, God's omnipresent. I mean, Christ is always present by virtue of the ministry of the indwelling Holy Spirit. So the Spirit of the risen Christ is constantly present in the life of the Christian by virtue of the endwelt spirit of God that indwells all Christians. And I would say a hearty yes and amen to that, but I would say in addition to that, like Revelation chapter 1. And I know this is interesting

because I think you and Jeff Durbin have been talking about eschatology. And so part of this depends on your persuasion. But Revelation chapter 1 talks about the lamp stands, the seven churches, And it talks about how each of them has a lampstand and each of them also has an angel. And a lot of guys that I would trust in ascotology, historically theologians would say that, you know, the church itself is the lampstand. The angel is actually the minister. So it's the preacher. And what happens is that when the lampstand is lit, as it were, which I would believe is reference to the church gathering on the Lord's Day. Now the lampstand is lit.

And the minister, the angel begins to speak, and I would say that's the minister who is now preaching. The minister in that moment is actually being held in Christ right hand, and something is not only proceeding from the mouth of the minister, namely the word preached, but the Bible says, Revelation 1 says that something actually proceeds from the mouth of Christ, who is the son of God, a sword, which a word is a double-edged, sharper than any double-edged sword. So there's a word proceeding from the mouth of Christ in the gathered assembly when the lampstand is lit on the Lord's Day, meaning that Christ is present in a particular way. And so I think what I would want to encourage some of these pastors with is go back to your ecclesiology. What is the church?

And right? We said, well, the church is the people of God. And you're the church gathered or you're the church scattered, right? So Sunday, the church is gathered. Monday through Saturday, the church is scattered. but you're always the church. And I would say, yes, that is the church in one sense. The church is all those who are adopted by the spirit, saved by grace through faith in Christ alone. So the church is the people. But the church is also the event. Right. And so we're always, well, the church is in a

building. Well, true, right? So you can meet outside. But the church, it may not be a building, but it is a gathering. It literally is a great. I mean, the word is ecclesia. It's assembly. And if the church is not assembling, then there is a very, in a very real sense, the church is not, it's ceasing to be the church. The church is a gathering. And when the church gathers, Christ who is always present by virtue of the Holy Spirit is now present in a unique way. So church is essential. And I think people say, of course church is essential. But I think what they really would get at is They say, no, just Christian faith is essential. So your personal, you know, if church can't happen, you're still just as good.

You're going to be just as sustained spiritually by your personal devotions, family worship, reading the Bible, singing with your family, in your home, those kind of things. Like, why do you have to go to church? So I would want to argue both. Church is essential, and part of the reason why it's essential is because it's actually unique. There are Christian disciplines that occur in. this setting that only occur in this setting, and Christ himself is present in this setting in a way that he is not present in any other setting.

And God has, throughout church history of 2,000 years, God has providentially sustained his people by the Lord's Day gathering. And I would argue more than he has through personal devotions. For instance, into the confirmation with Tyndell and Luther and guys who translated the Bible, until then with a Vulgate and, you know, just the Latin, you know, Catholic, Roman Catholic Bible, for 1,500 years of church history, people did not have the Bible in their home. They didn't have personal devotions reading the scripture. They didn't have these kinds of things.

So how did God, for 2,000 years, sustain his people globally? But he did it on the Lord's Day. So I would argue as far as the Christian spiritual vitality and spiritual health and being maintained and sustained by the Lord and spiritual maturity, and spiritual vitality. If we look at church history and we ask the question, if we frame it like this and we say, what has God used more to sustain his people? The Lord's Day gathering of the saints or personal devotions Monday through Saturday. Right. It's the former. So I would say both are essential to a healthy Christian life. But if I had to say which one is more essential, I would say

the first. It's the gathering of the saints. And something happens there. that doesn't happen anywhere else. And I think the reason why pastors were so quick to capitually, for lack of a better word, on this issue is, I think for some may be cowardice, but I think for many it wasn't so much, I don't think they actually thought, to give them the benefit of the doubt, I don't think they thought they were compromising. They honestly had a clear conscience because their conscience was clear because their mind, their mind, or at least anemic in terms of ecclesiology, just poor ecclesiology. Right. And I think that we take it for granted in the United States that we do have a

constitution that protects our ability to freely gather. It's supposed to be without fear of government intervention. Our brothers and sisters in Christ around the world, especially in the eastern part of the world, they don't have that privilege. And yet, what do they do? They risk their lives to be able to gather together knowing that it is very likely that their house church or their congregation or their assembly is going to be broken, going to be broken up. And so if those brothers and sisters see it as essential, even at the risk that is posed to them, that I think we in America, while we still have this right and this privilege to freely gather, I agree with you, in exercising wisdom, like you said, looking at assessing the risk,

the proverbial hurricane or tsunami, whatever it is, we need to do everything we can to be able to exercise the privilege, the right, and the grace that we have to be able to gather together. Can you tell everyone where they can find you? Yeah, so right response ministries.com is a great place to start. If you wanted to subscribe to our YouTube channel, that would be really great. Another great avenue is just to download our free app, the right response ministries app. And if I could say one more thing, Alex. Sure.

Yeah. I think Daniel chapter six is really helpful. And I think Christians need to really think through all the avenues of this. There was a decree that came from the civil magistrate in the land at that time that said that no one could pray for 30 days. And I think the people that you're referencing like Christians in China, you know, that in nations where there's not that freedom. So they've been exercising civil disobedience for a long time. I think what American Christians, the objection that I've gotten from them is they say, well, but that's when Christians are being specifically targeted. And I think what I would say, well, in the case of Daniel chapter 6, we have an edict, a decree that goes out from the king that says that no one can pray to any God, not just the triune Christian God, but any God.

So this would incorporate the Buddhists, the Muslim. And it goes even further and says, or petition any man. So the atheist and agnostic is included. It was universal. It was not specifically simply targeting the worshippers of Yahweh, not just Daniel and Israelites. It targeted all people. You can't pray to any God or petition any man. And what Daniel does is, and it was temporary. A lot of people said, you know, I've gotten pushbacks. It was just temporary. It was temporary in the days of Daniel. It was a 30-day ban on prayer. And Daniel continues to pray. And not only does he continue to pray, but he prays three times a day, as was his custom. So he's not

ramping it up to just try to stick it to the man. He's not trying to throw unnecessary punches, but he's doing what he's always been accustomed to do, pray three times a day with his windows open. And even the windows open is not trying to stick it to the man. The opening of his windows was actually, again, that right response. That was something that God regulated in his worship, because when Solomon, christened the temple in the Old Testament, there was a covenant made that said that if anyone was even held captive in a far distant land, if they would turn and face this temple and cry out to God, God would hear their cry and answer their prayer. And so Daniel is praying with his windows open facing Jerusalem as he's held in captivity. He's not trying to just

throw unnecessary punches. He's not trying to be unnecessarily disobedient or rebellious, but he is doing precisely what God has always commanded him to do. He's following the regular principle of worship, which includes praying and, in Daniel's case, praying with the windows open. And even though this was an edict that affected universally all the population, not just Christians, and even though it was temporary, only for 30 days, I can just imagine the Hebrew is saying, oh, it's only 30 days. Surely we should submit to the civil magistrate. God will honor that. But Daniel doesn't do that. And so I think we have biblical texts for this. And we're just not seeing it. And I think it's because of what you said, I think this is a muscle that the church in America,

America has just had not had, we haven't had to work this muscle. And so it's atrophied. It's, it's weak. And I think as time goes on, I think we're going to see a lot of churches that maybe just weren't true churches to begin with, but I think we'll see a lot of other churches and hopefully more that are like sleeping giants that the Lord uses and eventually churches all over. You already see it happening and are saying, that's enough. That's enough. And they're, and they're rising up to the occasion. And I feel encouraged for what God's doing. Well, that is very well said. Amen. Thank you so much for sharing this insight. It was so encouraging. I know a lot of people are going to be edified by it. I encourage everyone to check you guys out on YouTube and your website. And God bless you guys. And God bless the congregation that you're leaving there in San Diego. Thanks, Sally. Thank you. Thank you guys so much for watching and listening. This was a little bit of a different episode. But I hope you guys enjoyed it. I hope you guys were encouraged.

I'm so excited about Monday's episode. I am talking to writer and pro-life activist Samuel Say. He has so much insight about the things that are going on with, for example, Black Lives Matter and people crying out for justice. We're going to talk about what it looks like as Christians to care about justice and to execute justice in a way that is biblical that honors God and puts the gospel first. So make sure that you turn, make sure that you tune in to that and have an awesome weekend. Hey, this is Steve Day.

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