Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 286 | How the Church Should Respond to Black Lives Matter | Guest: Samuel Sey

Episode Date: August 10, 2020

In the current tensions of our society, blogger and pro-life activist Samuel Sey shares his perspective and advice on how the church should be responding to the movement of Black Lives Matter, addressing racism in context with the Gospel, and how the church should react to government authority. The church cannot accept the ideologies that project the wrong premise with the wrong solution.  Today's Links: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book https://slowtowrite.com/ Today's Sponsors: Laurel Springs: an accredited, online private school for students in kindergarten through twelfth grade. Go to https://laurelsprings.com/allie/ and receive a waived registration fee.

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Monday. I am so excited for you to listen to this conversation today between me and my friend, writer, Samuel, say we are going to talk about his career, his testimony, what he writes about, which is specifically. how we are supposed to respond from a biblical perspective to real instances of injustice.

He will talk about his criticism of Black Lives Matter and the movement that it represents. And again, how we as Christians should be responding to all of the turbulence that's happening in our world right now. Before we get into that conversation, you guys, tomorrow my book is coming out. This has been such a long time coming. It's been almost two years since I originally talk to the people who published my book. So this has been a long process. It's been a labor of love. It has been a group project with you guys. Everyone who has ever messaged me, emailed me, asked me a question, giving me feedback, provided me with wisdom and insight into this culture of self-love and how we as Christian should be able to analyze it, break it down, and replace it with the truth of

God's word. You guys have contributed to this book. You're not enough and that's okay, escaping the toxic culture of self-love. I am so excited for you guys to finally have this in your hands. If you go to Alliebethstocky.com slash book, you can click on buy the book or pre-order the book and it will take you to a page that will show you all the places that you can buy it online. So you can purchase it on Amazon. You can purchase it at books a million. You can purchase it at Barnes & Noble.com. Also, it may be available at your local bookstore. It's probably available at your local library. If not, you can ask these places to carry it. And so go to alleybethducky.com slash book. You can find more information about it. It is. A lot of people ask me, is this just for

women? As you can see, if you're watching on YouTube, it is a pink book. It is from a female perspective. All the other perspectives that I have in the book, I've got some stories from some listeners that they sent me in their experiences with the culture of self-love. That's from a female perspective. So yes, it is primarily targeted towards women because the culture of self-love primarily targets women, but can a man get something out of it? Sure. And if you are a man who happens to listen to the podcast, if you've got a daughter, if you've got a girlfriend, if you've got a wife, if you've got a mother who you think would like this book, it's really encouraging for all ages of women, then I encourage you to get it too. Now, another question I have

received is, is this okay for young teenagers? Like, what is the age? So, we do talk about some, I would say, mature subjects. I talk about some of my own regrets, my own mistakes that also led me to learn the lessons that I articulated in this book. And I talk some about college experiences and my own testimony that I would say deal with more mature subjects. So it just depends on the maturity level of your daughter, if that's who you're buying the book for. If you are willing to read the book with, them. If you've got young girls, like say ages 13 to 15 that you are looking to buy this book for, I would encourage you. You do what you think is best as their parent, but I would encourage you to

read this along with them and to talk through these things with them. I would say it's a good book in general for ages 16 plus, since it does kind of deal with things that maybe you as a parent would want to be the one to talk to them about. So I just want to give you that. I just want to give you that heads up. Another question that I get is, what if I'm in Australia or what if I'm in Canada? When I try to buy it on Amazon, I can't, it won't let me purchase the book. You have to go to the domain that is in your area. So you can't go to the American Amazon.com. You have to go to the domain that corresponds with where you live and you will be able to purchase it. Yes, it's on Audible. It will be read by yours truly. And yes, it is also on Kindle. A lot of people have asked me for a paperback version.

and I don't really know the answer to that. I think that will be available. But those are all the places that you can get it. As I have said, many times, if you are a woman, join Women's Book Club with Ali Stucky. We'll be going through this book together. We'll be starting in a couple weeks. So I can give people some time to actually purchase the book, and I can have time to approve the many, many requests that I have to enter the group. It is a private group and it is just for women. So join that book club. We will be going through this book. And then, We'll be going through lots of other books as well. If you have requested to join and I haven't approved you, it's not personal. I've got like probably as we're speaking, 350 requests that I'm trying to go through. And I don't just willy-nilly go through them. I actually look to see who is requesting and then I accept people. So make sure that you answer all the questions, that you look at the rules, then you request to join and I promise that I will get to you.

So you're not enough and that's okay escaping the toxic culture of self-love. It's out tomorrow. I will be on Fox News on Wednesday night. Shannon Bream's show talking about this. I am on radio shows talking about it. I might even be on some of your favorite podcasts. I'll be on Ben Shapiro's show. I'll be on Candice Owens' show.

I'll be on Dan Crenshaw's show. I'll be on Graham Allen's show. So all the fun conservative commentators and a lot of Christian influencers also that you know have graciously allowed me to be on to talk about this book. So I'm just so excited. Thank you guys so much for your support. And please, if you will, out and purchase, you're not enough, and that's okay, escaping the toxic culture of self-love.

And when you have read the book, I would love for you to give me a positive, a five-star review on Amazon. If you do love the book, and those are your honest feelings about it. If you've got questions, always feel free to reach out to me. I would love to engage with you about the book. And of course, we will be doing that on Ali's Book Club, Ali's Stuckey's Book Club on Facebook. Okay. Now that I've gotten that out of the way, without further ado, here is my friend, a pro-life activist and writer Samuel Say. Samuel, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me.

A lot of people who listen to my podcast have heard of you and heard of your blog before because I've referenced it. You've got a lot of great and helpful content over there. But for those who maybe haven't heard of you, can you tell everyone who you are and what you do? Thank you. Yeah, I'm a Ghanaian-Canadian. I live right next to Toronto.

And yeah, I immigrated from Ghana when I was 10 years old. And I was originally living in Montreal, Canada. And we immigrated, you know, I came with my, my, I immigrated with my single mom. She came here three years before I did. Right now, it's very difficult for these days when a family or a member of family is immigrating to the West, particularly America or Canada, they usually come with their children. But when I was, this is back in the 90s, late 90s at the time, it was very common for parents to move to the states or Canada on their own and then bring their children after that. And that's

what happened with me and my mom. But yeah, as I said, I grew up in a single parent household to my mom and you know my dad left my family right before I was born and this is back during the 80s and in the 80s Ghana had implemented a communist you know regime there's a dictator there and the poverty destroyed a lot of Ghanaians and that actually is one of reasons why my dad left our family because which is you know that's his his sin his failure but bad policies can create bad parents and you know that's what so anyway then three Through that, my mom, we immigrated to Canada. And by the grace of God, when I was 19, I was at a church and I heard the gospel, which I heard many times before, but I heard the gospel.

And God just made, you know, opened himself. God opened my eyes. And I saw him clearly. As in, you know, by through faith, I loved him. And that was 19. And since then, I've been developing a passion for theology and wanting to. to write to help people understand some of the things happening around us. And in 2015, in light of the Ferguson riots, I decided to start a blog to help my friends understand

why I did not support Black Lives Matter. And over the last five years since then, the blog has reached other people outside of my friends and I'm very grateful. And on top of that, two years ago, I also just started joining the pro-life movement and working for a organization here in Canada named CCBR, which is short for the Canadian Center for Bioethical Reform. And yeah, so I'm kind of living the dream and doing two things that I'm very passionate about blogging and saving pre-worn babies. Yeah. So since you've been talking about this very contentious subject of as a Christian non-examination. standing with Black Lives Matter, has there been a lot of pushback, not just from your friends,

but as your blog has grown from the greater public in general? Yeah, yeah. When I started blogging, I didn't, I knew what I would be saying was unpopular, but I was not at the time prepared for how unpopular would be. I've lost some very dear friends over this stuff. And outside of that, too, yes, I receive a lot of hate mail from a lot of white people telling me how much more they love black people than I do. Right, right. Which is always fascinating.

But, yeah, you know, there's been a, you know, I have a white girlfriend and she's been attacked as well, too. So it's, there's almost daily I'm receiving, you know, people are calling me a Koon or Uncle Tom and a lot. of that kind of racial slurs against me. Right. Can you explain? At least summarize as, you know, concisely or as thoroughly as you want to, your stance on Black Lives Matter and why you don't agree with them? So people oftentimes try to separate Black Lives Matter the slogan

and Black Lives Matter the organization or the movement. Right. I think that's, that's almost impossible in the sense that the slogan, just the words, Black Lives Matter, of course, is true. But I oftentimes liken it to, especially being a pro-life advocate, to the word pro-choice. The word pro-choice by itself means one thing. But we know culturally it means entirely something else. So Black Lives Matter, the slogan and the movement are very much linked.

And they don't mean what people think it means. So Black Lives Matter, I don't agree with them because they're, what they say, they claims is genocide against black people in America and here in Canada. We have our own chapter here, Black Lives Matter chapter in Canada. And you may have probably heard of, they are the ones that mentioned that what you say, white people are subhuman because they don't have melanin. Yeah. I think that was the co-founder of BLM in Toronto.

She had this long, just for the people who don't know, she had this long Facebook post from a while ago that explained why white people are actually kind of almost deformed humans or subhumans because we don't have the right amount of melanin. Honestly, it's kind of similar to the argument that Nick Cannon made not that long ago that white people are closer to savages and we lack compassion because we don't have as high of melanin counts. But the co-founder of BLM in Toronto, I mean, she really believed this. and pushed this kind of stuff. So anyway, you can continue. I just wanted to make sure that people knew exactly what we were talking about. And just even then, she was pressed not too hard, even toughly, but too tough by the press here in Toronto.

But when she was asked to clarify and to apologize, she refused to do so. So you're right that she really does affirm it. Right. Anyway, so we have our own chapter here. And, you know, I don't agree with their ideology. They've, you know, on their website, they're very clear about how they want to destroy the nuclear family, which is a major problem because that's actually what's hurting black families, that the breakdown of the nuclear family is what's leading to high abortion rates, high criminal rates, high poverty rates. And we know the numbers on that. So they're actually, if black glass matter really mattered to them, they would not want to destroy the very foundation of, you know, of.

a good family. And then also, they're very pro-LGB. As a Christian, I cannot affirm that. And as I mentioned before, they are extremely pro-abortion. You know your pro-abortion when Planned Parenthood is almost obsessed with, you know, with supporting you. They just can't get enough of Black Lives Matter. And, you know, so I just, you know, ideologically, facts-wise, in every facet, they're very much anti-Christian and really anti-logic and anti-facts. And I can't support an organization like that. So for the people who say, okay, I'm with you, can't support the organization? Can you explain a little bit more why you would encourage a Christian in particular not to say, okay, not the organization, but Black Lives do matter. And they're using the hashtag, they're using the phrase, they're posting

about it on social media. Why would you say or caution them against doing that? Mm-hmm. And this is for Christians? Is it Christians? Yeah, specifically for Christians. Yeah. The Bible has better words for affirming life than a group that hates the Bible. Right? As Christians, we want to be affirming what the Bible says. And as I said before, you know, we don't live in a bubble. You live in a culture where words and rhetoric matter. And every hashtag is a promotion for Black Lives Matter. You know, so. You know, there are many people who would say, who would be comfortable saying that they believe in, you know, planning, you know, being a parent and everything else. Well, yes, but you can't say you believe in plant parenthood because, well, plant parenthood means, you know, killing babies. Right. Right. That's an organization. As I said before, you can say you're pro-choice, sure.

But at least without some strong, you know, explanation or context, you then would be saying that you were really pro-abortion. Right. So Black Lives Matter. When you say Black Lives Matter, that wasn't a term that was used. anywhere near as often as it is being used now until the organization propped up. And it is really their rhetoric and it is part of their movement. So anytime you affirm that, it is whether a person may not intend on doing so, it is a promotion of that movement. And there are many people too who are not very aware of the differences, well, who are not aware of the major problems

within Black Lives Matter. So if you are aware of who they are and you are affirming and supporting the slogan, you are then going to be leading many vulnerable people, many naive people, into thinking that you are affirming the organization themselves, and that is not a wise thing to be doing. Right. What about the Christian teachers that I've heard say, okay, yeah, we know that the organization, and maybe even the phrase stands for things

that we don't agree with, all the things that you just mentioned, plus things like defunding the police, other kind of policy prescriptions that we are just not in line with, but at least they're stepping up, but at least they are showing us the issues that we need to be talking about. I've heard some Christian teachers say, oh, the existence of this self-proclaimed Marxist organization proves that the church has failed and talking about systemic injustices and systemic racism. So instead of criticizing them, we just need to step up to the plate and we need to kind of link arms with them and to go forward in the same direction that they are, even if it's with different tactics. What do you say to the Christian who gives that kind of critique to what you just said?

That assumes that they have the right premise but the wrong solution. But no, they have the wrong solutions because they have the wrong premise. That is very important. The civil rights movement, for example, they had the right solution because they had the right premise that there was injustice. They have evidence of injustice obviously happening. It was tangible, true systemic racism, and they offer the right solution. Right. And then you also have, of course, the abolitionist who, you know, obviously also had the right premise and the right solution.

Black class matter. So, for example, as it pertain. to George Floyd, when they see a cop killing a black man, context doesn't matter, motivation doesn't matter. With their ideas, since they really believe that the American government, or in my case, the Canadian government is committing genocide against black people, as soon as they see that, and they immediately believe that is a racist incident. And that is what fuels their entire organization.

So because they believe that in their mind, it doesn't matter what George Floyd's, what Derek Chauvin's intentions were in terms of his, you know, I mean, you know, he was a, that was bad policing at the very basic level, very bad policing. I saw the full video recently where it has more context to it all, but still at the very end, it was bad policing. Right. But with that said, because in their mind, they believe that the entire American government or Canadian government is. committing genocide against black people through the police. That's why they believe you need to defund the police. Their ideas, their bad ideas, is pushing their bad policies. So the idea that they are right, you know, they're right to be thinking that there's an injustice

against black people in the world, there's no facts that prove that. As a Christian, if I believe that the American government is committing genocide, against people like me. We can't forget that. I'm a black man. And if I really believe this, I would not, of course, be trying to defend the police or the government in this case here. But as a Christian, if I believe that God calls me to honor my government, if I am saying the government is trying to kill people like me, and I don't have the facts to prove that, that I'm bearing false witness and I'm slandering my government, we all forget this, right? With this pandemic, of Christians are saying we need to honor and obey our government. And that's true in many,

unless of course they're, you know, telling us to sin. But that also includes honoring your government. If you don't have the facts to prove that the American government or the Canadian government is trying to kill black people, but you're saying it is so. Well, you don't have the evidence to prove it because there's no evidence, right? So then it becomes a major problem. And then the solution in terms to the, with the church, in times past, the church, unfortunately, many people within the church joined the world in sin, in racism. And yet, of course, if it wasn't for the church through the abolitionist movement and through, in some cases, them supporting the civil rights movement, you wouldn't have had justice and

liberty for black Americans. Yeah. But the problem is that right now, a lot of churches are joining the world in how to respond to this, which is not dissimilar to what happened with a lot of people in the church in the civil rights movement and then through the abolitionist movement where they refuse to stand on biblical theology and instead they join in a world at the time worldly philosophies through white supremacy, but now it's worldly philosophy through social justice. And, you know, that is not at all helpful to the church and is not at all honoring Christ.

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they lead, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed,

you can watch this T-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. I think a lot of churches have been convinced that the movement that's happening right now and the talk of systemic injustices and systemic racism is a direct parallel to the civil rights movement, which is then a direct parallel to the abolition. maybe a lot of church leaders are thinking, well, the church kind of failed, dropped the ball in some ways, at least in the 20th century and fighting for liberty and justice for all here in the States. And so now we are going to make sure that we're on the right side of history. The problem is, as you explained really well, is that it's not the same premise as during the abolition. It's not the same premise as during the civil rights.

Those were correct premises that, okay, our ideals in America, that we are. are all created with certain unalienable rights among them being life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, that we are equal in value and should be equal under the eyes of the law. Slavery was obviously, it stood opposed to those principles. Jim Crow and the systemic discrimination that black people dealt with in America in the 20th century stood against those ideals. But what is happening right now, just based on the data that we have, it's not a parallel, this idea that white people or white police officers are hunting black people in the streets at disproportionate rates compared to white people.

It's just not factual. So it starts with a false premise. And then it leads to, like you said, false solutions, which are these kind of social justice, very intangible, the work of anti-racism, deconstructing whiteness and white supremacy, all of these things that don't really mean anything and are just. covers for kind of critical theory. And unfortunately, I think the church has bought into the idea that what's happening right now is exactly the same as what happened in the 1960s. And it's just not. Why do you think you recently wrote on this? Why do you think churches and particularly young people and the church are so susceptible to this narrative, to this rhetoric, and social justice theology in general? There are many reasons why, and the immediate answer to that, I think, is an over-correction, an overreaction to the moral majority and the fundamentalists in the 80s and 90s,

where those guys would sometimes just, they oftentimes would stray from, I think, biblical wisdom, and we're too focused on politics at times. Now, of course, you and I, we very much care about politics as we should. But it's very easy to make that an idol and to forget the gospel in doing so. And I think a lot of churches in reaction to that, thought that that was rightly so, a somewhat unhelpful means at times. And then they said, we're not going to teach politics at all. We're not going to talk about justice at all. So then you had pastor's parents not teaching their young children justice. So then they end up going to high school and especially college, and then they're learning from, they are learning what they think is justice

in colleges, where it's really an injustice, and then they return home or they return to their churches, and their pastors and parents are like, wait a minute, how are you now supporting Antifa and Black Lives Matter? What happened? Well, what happened is that you didn't teach them. So they didn't have any concept of that. You know, I had to learn by the grace of God through the scriptures and then just studying and figuring out for myself what was true because what was out, what was out, what I was taught in school is exactly, if I had continued believing in what I was taught in school, I'd be at the very forefront of joining the Black Lives Matter movement or even Antifa. We're forgetting that this stuff is becoming very much mainstream because it has become very much mainstream in the schools already

and is just now coming to the very forefront of our culture and our streets. So you have that already. And unfortunately, one of, so I'm, you know, I'm reformed and I know you are as well too. And I think there was 10, 12 years ago, you had so many black people in Britain, Canada, and America becoming reformed. And a lot of black people were raised as liberals. And when we joined a reform church, as in we black people, we joined reform churches, mostly white reformed churches. We were united over the gospel, rightly so. But since we were never addressing these justice issues, these political issues, a lot of us were still voting or still thinking like leftists and liberals.

But a lot of our white members in the church were voting conservative still. And we weren't talking about these issues. So then when Black Lives Matter emerges on the scene, and especially with, you know, Trayvon Martin's killing and. and Michael Browns especially. All of a sudden, we then, as Vadi Bokam mentioned, has said before, too, I know he was on your show last week. And all of a sudden, the false unity is really that much more clear. And you see that, wait a minute, we had different views on justice.

That was never taught. And I had some of my black friends from across the world saying, my pastor's a racist. I had no idea he was a racist. I had some of them saying, all this time, I didn't know that he would want to make me a slave. So just because now, you know, our different views on justice is exposed, they now think the pastors and the members that they had loved for so long, they now believe they're racist

because they have different views on justice. So since so many reformed people, so since so many black people became reformed, and that tension and disunity really became a major issue. You had so many white pastors then who had started to embrace this multi-ethnic churches and everything else all of a sudden being afraid if they reject Black Lives Matter, then, because I've had many emails of pastors telling me they're struggling with this or that they're being pressured by other pastors into accepting Black Lives Matter and critical theory and all that. And many of them are afraid that if they denounce Black Lives Matter, they will lose their Black members or then they will no longer be able to receive a lot of, Black visitors to the church, which has then led to a very secret sensitive type of thinking where if we embrace the culture, then we'll be able to attract people that we think are very coveted in our culture.

Right. But we have to just preach the gospel. Preach the gospel to all groups. Preach the gospel to white people, brown people, black people, anybody. The irony is a lot of the black people became reformed because of the gospel. It wasn't because of anything else. It was a gospel. So if you want black people in your church, preach the gospel.

because it is God who saves sinners, all kinds of sinners, not you, it's God. And you would think we should know this because we're a reformed people, that we know it is not our words that changes souls or that save souls. It is God. It's God's God's mercy. So just preach the gospel and be faithful to biblical theology. You know, that is one of the frustrations that I've had in seeing this is that a lot of pastors assume that for whatever reason for black people, the gospel isn't enough.

you might be able to preach the gospel to your mostly white congregants because you know that's what they need and that's sufficient for them, but they have it in their heads that black people need something else besides the gospel, that something else will save them, something else will comfort then. They have to preach social justice in critical theory and worldly views and perspectives and solutions on race in order to feel accepted. And that shows not really as much what they think about black people is it is what they think about the gospel. That the same gospel that Jesus saw fit to preach, that Jesus saw as sufficient to preach and to have preached to both the Jews and the Gentiles, two groups that were very far apart

at the time. And Ephesians tells us that he broke down that wall of hostility between the Jews and the Gentiles. If the gospel was powerful enough to reconcile, first of all, all of us sinners to a holy God by grace through faith, and then it was powerful enough to reconcile two very disparate groups, the Jews and the Gentiles. I wonder why it is that some pastors today don't believe that the gospel is sufficient from the pulpit to achieve the same reconciliation that Jesus and the apostles saw that it could. You know, it's in Romans 1, Paul mentions that he is not ashamed of the

gospel because it is the power of God for salvation for both the Jews and the Gentiles. Now, at the time, as you said, there was a lot of tension between groups. And he's saying, I am not ashamed of the gospel because it's what will save them. It's what they need, right? And it's sad because I struggle with this. You know, I know that as a black man, I can get away. with so much sin from in terms of on how I'm thinking about this stuff. I can say some horrible things to my, to some white friends.

And people will not pursue me as they're saying, hey, brother, you're sinning against this person. You got to repent and reconcile. Unfortunately, I'm seeing so many people on social media now who would think that it's wrong to correct a black person when they're in sin over these issues. but if you're not correcting me because I'm black, that's actually racist. Right. Right.

And what I need most is for me to grow more in love with God and more in love with my members. Right. So through all this, we are failing to love God faithfully and we're failing to love black people faithfully. because if the gospel and holiness is what's important, which of course is what is important, and we're failing to say what many black people need to hear, not just many black people, but also many white people need to hear. If we're not saying these things, it's not love, it's actually hate.

It's hate because God is love. And what affirms who God is, biblical theology, is the most loving thing you can affirm. But if you betray that, you embrace worldly philosophies. That's a form of hate, and you're actually then hurting people's souls. Right. And unfortunately, a lot of groups that they posture themselves as Christian groups, and

unfortunately, they do exactly what you just said, that, you know, Ephesians, again, talks about letting go of all bitterness and wrath and resentment and malice and anger, obviously, because that's what we're just called to do as Christians to glorify God and those things are sin, but also graciously, those things, letting go of those things, relieves us of a burden that crushes us, that makes us unable to love other people and to live a life of freedom and joy.

And so when you tell people of any skin color, that, hey, hold on to that wrath and that anger and that malice that is actually justified in your case. Like you said, that's not loving at all. Not only is that not pointing them to the liberation that Christ offers sinners, but it is also allowing them to be trapped and burdened and to hold on to a weight that they shouldn't be responsible or obligated to carry. And so I just see a lot of unintentional probably lack of love from Christians, particularly white Christians to fellow

black Christians because they've been told that any correction or admonition or encouragement in the Lord is a form of white supremacy. And that's the worst thing that you can That's a worst thing that you can do, you know? Mm-hmm. One of the most controversial, and it's always surprised to people, one of the most controversial things or articles I ever wrote was I shared a story about how I was walking in a tunnel. As I'm walking in a tunnel, this is a dark tunnel. It's a pretty intimidating tunnel.

As I'm walking in that tunnel, there's a young white lady who is walking towards me. And as soon as she sees me, she clutches her purse. And she essentially attaches herself. She glues herself to the wall. It's a pretty dirty wall. So you must really want to, like, avoid me if you're going to be doing this. And she does that. And she's just, then she just speeds up way past me.

And I, in the beginning, I'm like, oh, this is, you know, here it is again. A white woman being afraid of a black person and all that. But then as I keep walking, I'm like, wait a minute. Why am I assuming she did this because I'm black? If she was a black woman, I wouldn't have thought it was racism. But because she's white, I'm assuming the worst of her. And I'm thinking she's assuming the worst of me because I'm black. I said, look, she may have been racist, maybe.

But all I know for sure is that I'm the one being racist. Because if she wasn't white, I wouldn't think she was racist. many Christians said Sam, that's wrong, she is a racist. I'm like, wait a minute, I'm applying biblical theology here. The Bible says that I have to assume the best of people. I have to consider others as less, as more significant than myself. And when you try to apply this today concerning the racial issues, all of a sudden, when you're again applying biblical theology, people, many

Christians not think you're in sin and that you're in the wrong for doing so. And that says a lot about where we are trending towards right now as a society and as a church. You know, women get the same message pretty often, maybe not as much from reformed circles. But just in general, we get the message that any anger or resentment towards men as a collective or the patriarchy as a collective, whether or not you personally have been mistreated. We're not talking about individual relationships, but just in general and intangibly. Any anger that you have towards that is totally justified. Any slander, any kind of unfounded criticism that you have towards this nebulous patriarchy,

that is justified. And if the man calls you out and sin a brother in Christ, well, that is just the patriarchy at work. That is just mansplaining and toxic masculinity. And really, I mean, this just kind of goes to show, this is another example of kind of the effect of critical theory of the oppressed versus the oppressor. If you are told that you belong to a group that has been historically oppressed, you are justified in whatever behavior that you use to push back against your so-called oppressor, whether or not you have actually been oppressed. It's a gospel of grievance that is being preached to so many

of these groups. And the gospel of grievance doesn't do anything to actually liberate you. that's the problem and that's really what, I don't know, it makes me sad. Do you agree with that? Absolutely. It essentially says that you should repay evil for evil. That is what it's saying, which the Bible is very- Or evil for perceived evil. Exactly. Yes, that's a very well, yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that because it's really concerning because, you know, The Bible is very clear on this issue. So no matter what people have done to me or what I think they've done to me, God still calls me to think clearly, to think lovingly towards them. I mentioned to some people that, look, I know that Derek Chauvin, he, you know, he killed.

He killed George Floyd in an unjust manner, even though I know, again, the videotape shows. that unfortunately George Floyd was, we're just in an arrest and everything else. But the latter part of the entire altercation or the incidents, you know, he did not react in a very wise manner that ended up leading to George Floyd's death. But I mentioned that, you know, God still calls me to love Derek Chauvet, which means that what I don't know, I can't pretend that I do. So all this right now, the last two, three months, a lot of the destruction happening in America, a lot of the vitriol and the division and all that is stemming primarily not from the fact that George Floyd was killed. Not really. The issue is that he was killed because of racism. The idea, though, is, but there's no even evidence for racism. there isn't any evidence of that.

So here we've built, again, a false premise, which has led to very bad solutions. Right. So it's just that if we are not going to be reacting faithfully, if we're not going to be focusing on blessing, it may sound a bit strange, but, you know, bless, I want to bless a Derek Chauvin or anybody, who has even done wrong by making sure I'm thinking clearly about that.

Because then I can love God faithfully and I can love my neighbors faithfully and not be pushing ideologies or false premises that will end up leading to horrible reactions, including riots and everything else. Right. So you and I know and agree on the fact that obviously there are racist that exist in the sense that there are people who hate, which is really the only isom that Jesus talks about, is hate that starts in the heart. But people hate based on skin color, people hate based on sex. They might hate based on nationality or religion or something like that. And under the umbrella

of hate that is condemned by God, the Bible says, you can't love God and hate your brother. So we know that hatred based on anything, including race, is a sin. And we know that that exists. At one point, it was systemic. Now, some people still say that the legacy of that is here today, but let's maybe not get into all of that and simply ask, what biblically does the Christian do when they see actual racism, when they know that actual racists exist, when maybe they see a system or a practice or a process that is discriminatory, or where they see real injustice, for example, like abortion and through Planned Parenthood, how does the Christian react to that in a way that is gospel-centered and that is biblical without taking the tactics and the premises and the ideologies of the world?

Yeah. God calls us to, it's one of my favorite texts in the Bible. It's a very simple text, but it's abhor evil or hate evil, love good, and establish justice. we would not have the West, you know, coming from Ghana, you know, very poor African country, coming from, you know, Ghana and coming into the West, the influence of biblical theology has been very, I mean, you see that in the West. And I'm saying that because a lot of Christians founded, you know, these Western nations based on Christian principles, not of course perfect, not perfect, not perfectly, but it was, the Bible clearly was a very much a huge foundation for them. I mentioned this because, as you know, I'm a pro-life advocate, and the reason why I very much care about that is because I know that Roe v. Wade in America over here in Canada, abortion is legal and sanctioned. And plant parenthood and abortion centers very much target black pre-born babies.

Well, God calls me to hate that, to love preborn babies and to establish justice. So I respond to that. Right now, my work is, I'm a community liaison, so I'm the one that is, you know, working to speak to pastors and telling them, well, speaking with them as to how to get involved in the pro-life movement, how we can share resources and how we can get their churches educated on this issue and how they can come to this. with us and go to different, you know, go to schools with us and just share the truth and share God's truth about abortion. And by the grace of God, we've been able to save many lives and

change many minds. But we react to injustice. So right now, one of the issues with Black Lives Matter or this critical theory movement and social justice is that you have them repaying evil for evil and then you have them using oftentimes racist means or unjust means. in their mind to to tackle unjust systems or unjust laws, which of course is wrong. But you do so peacefully, you do so by listening, you do so carefully, you do so, make sure they have the facts in front of you that you are not going to also forget the gospel in light of that. Christ was living in a very, when he was on earth, he was living in a very unjust culture. the Roman Empire was brutally oppressive.

And he said certain things that we know. He, of course, knew that the Romans were oppressive. We know that. And he had his focus was a gospel. And we can't forget that, right? And also, if you live in this culture, you are going to have some form of injustice against you, either systemically or just relationally. But you react to that by being patient by, of course, saying, hey, brother, sister, or your neighbor, you've sinned, you've done this. And let's talk about why that's wrong.

And let's tell you the solution against that addressing the gospel. Yes. And you gave such a perfect picture of how to fight an injustice like abortion with the gospel. But you're also going out there. You're changing people's minds and you're sharing the gospel. but you're also talking about the brutal reality of what abortion is and why preborn babies do matter and why they should be saved. In the same way, if someone, for example, they see something that is a tangible injustice in regards to discrimination against a black person or discrimination against any other kind of person that is a tangible injustice, there is the possibility, of course, and the responsibility, I would say, to preach the gospel into that. and to do work in accordance to what the Bible says.

Now, that's very different than this kind of nebulous idea of so-called doing the work of anti-racism, which is basically an equivalent to just saying, oh, well, we need socialism. And that is how we are going to make everyone equal. And we need reparations and all of that. There is a way to speak up and to say, hey, you know, this is, this practice is oppressive against this one group of people, this socioeconomic class or immigrants or whatever it is. I think the important thing is that we are getting our definition of what justice is from the Bible. God's justice is impartial, so it doesn't show partiality to the great or to the poor, to one skin color or another.

It is direct. It is individual. It is fair. And so we apply God's principles of justice to the things that we care about and how we go about fighting against them. and we also make sure that the things that we are told are injustices here are actual injustices. So looking at basic data, basic facts to see if something is actually true, that does actually matter. I think a lot of times we unfortunately, what we hear, an example of systemic racism is just looking at disparities between two groups and attributing that, as you have explained, to racism. while the Christian is responsible for, as you articulated so well, saying, but is that due to that? Do I know that? Or are there other policies in place?

For example, a lack of school choice or unconditional welfare. Or are the politicians in these cities, predominantly minority cities, are they not doing their jobs well? Do they have a corrupt prosecutor, a corrupt mayor? And so it is, we are beholden to the truth and to facts and to looking at action. policies and prescriptions. Yes. I'm so glad you mentioned that because the whole premise for systemic racism today or for the perceptions of injustice against black people in our societies today is based on

disparities. But there are major problems that comes with that. If we believe that, then we have to believe, as many anti-racists are forced to believe today because of their ideology, that we live in a more racist society today. than going back to the high of the civil rights movement in the 60s, which many of them have said this, that we live in a much more sinister, more covert,

but more sinister and more, you know, a worse oppression against black people today than before. Why? Because the disparities today are worse now than they were 50 years ago, right? So if we believe that, then we have to, if we believe that disparities are evidence for racism,

or systemic racism. Now, of course, that can be true, but not independently so. Right. You can have a system that is unjust that will lead to disparities, like slave-rich segregation, of course. Right. But disparities on their own do not prove discrimination. And I know you're a big fan of Thomas Sol. So we know he wrote that book, that brilliant book on disparities and discrimination.

Yes. But on top of that, you also have major issues. theologically as well. And so essentially, God was the, was, you know, was the king of ancient Israel. The Mosaic law that, you know,

that God, you know, the law that God gave to the ancient, you know, Jews through Moses, there was no provision for ending disparities, none whatsoever. If we're saying that disparities is evidence for systemic racism,

that we're saying, God, God's law is systemically racist or systemically oppressive against some of the groups, some of the tribes in Israel that, but, you know, that for a fact, would have been, would have been also been, you know, this would have had, would have been on the wrong end of disparities as well. Also, you have the parable of the talents where Christ shares the example of the parable

talents and he talks about how there was a slave, there was a slave owner who gave his slaves. He gave one five talents, which is essentially money for them to steal it over. And he gave another one, two talents to give another one, one talent. In the parable, just kind of keep it short, in the parable, God, Christ does not suggest disparities of talent is wrong, not at all. In fact, the third person who has the one talents who ends up bearing it and not being fruitful over it when he ends up complaining, essentially, over it, Christ rebukes that person because they're comparing their gifts. They're comparing other people's gifts and comparing. And he's saying that, well, essentially, it's not fair. And I think

that you are a wicked person for giving me this one talent. So I didn't think anything of it. The point is disparities are not evidence for anything, right? And when we start thinking that way, we get into big trouble. And of course, historically, today, There is no society today that does not have racial disparities. Even, as Thomas Soll has said, too, even in families, you're going to have, you know, with the same parents, same upbringing, everything else, you would have disparities amongst the children in that family. And if you believe also that disparities are trickly evidence for systemic racism, then what's the solution? What is it? I've asked many people, how do you overcome systemic racism?

When will you believe it's over? They all, they can't answer that. Right. Because if, if you think it can only be, if you think that you can only defeat, systemic racism, if you have parity, then there's no hope. Because that will never happen. But then the only attempt, the only way to end it, of course, is where we go back to the wrong premise and the wrong solution,

where then the only solution that in their mind is socialism. Right. Because then the attempt is then you have perfect. equality of outcome, which never happens, of course, because in socialism, it will always lead to a political elite that will then oppress the, you know, everybody else who's equally poor. Right. As you see right now in Venezuela, the whole nation is essentially equally poor, but the political elites are feeding, you know, are doing a good job of eating, you know, very well for themselves.

Right. Right. It's, they believe in redistributing the power in the capital from the group that is traditionally known as the oppressor to the groups that are traditionally known as the oppressed, whether or not the people in the oppressor group have actually been oppressors, and whether or not the people in the oppressed group have actually been oppressed. So along that kind of thinking, the kind of thinking that says that all white people, no matter their station in life, are inherently more privileged than all non-white people with that kind of mentality and the mentality that says you have to have equal outcomes. You have to force equal outcomes, basically taking everyone down to, it has to be. And this is not a racial statement, just in general.

You would have to take everyone down, as Thomas Sol says, to the lowest common denominator. It's always equality downward. It's never equality upward. And in that kind of thinking, you have the poor white person from Appalachia who is told that he has more privileged than Oprah Winfrey, the only female, or one of the only female black billionaires in the world who was raised from poverty and of much more racist America and through hard work has become a billionaire. We are told that the poor white child living in a trailer without parents has more privilege and has to redistribute that privilege in that wealth and capital equity, whatever it is, to someone like Kanye West or to someone like Oprah Winfrey or to someone like Jay-Z. and that is the only solution that a lot of these so-called anti-racists have to making everything equal, that is not God's definition of justice. Now, I do want to clarify, and I want to see if you agree with this,

where there is disparity based on oppression, where we can look at something and say, hey, this is due to oppression. For example, you gave good examples of Jim Crow and of slavery, obviously leading to disparities because of discrimination, because of oppression, and that was wrong and unjust. But if that exists anywhere today, for example, I think a good example of that is the lack of school choice, unfortunately, in a lot of poor black communities,

and so they're forced to go to a school that isn't necessarily meeting their needs. That, to me, is a form of systemic injustice that disproportionately affects black people. I do believe that Christians should be working for equity in that way so parents can, you know, do what's best for their child. Do you agree with that? Or am I just kind of taking on my own form of social justice? No, I absolutely agree with that.

I think one of the ironies of our society today is that you have men like Federal Douglas, the abolitionists where they advocate for liberty. Today you have social justice groups who are advocating for control of black people. Right. It's a it's a it's a bizarre world we live in now where we should have look because the biggest problem for black people throughout black Americans throughout history has been the government and the government not giving black people liberty. So why do we then want these teacher unions and the government to be controlling and forcing parents and their kids to not be able to choose for themselves where they want to be going to school? So school choice is very crucial. And as you know as well, too, you know, children, you know, who go to, you know, who are not in that public school system where they don't have any control.

They don't do as well as kids who are going to these charter schools, right? So that's a very clear example that we don't care as a society or at least the people who advocate against school choice. They don't, the children's good isn't the benefit there. The benefit is really, unfortunately, on the disjunions who end up receiving so much money. I know many of them complain about not receiving a lot of funding, but receive so much funding, but they're not actually putting it on the children. They're just putting it on several other means. Exactly.

Exactly. Okay. Last question, you talked about in the beginning of this conversation, how speaking about these things has unfortunately led to you losing friends. I can relate to that. And I know a lot of people listening to this can relate to that, or at least they're afraid if they do stand up and say some of the things that you just said that they are going to lose friends. What is your encouragement and your advice to Christians in that same position? Even the only sinless person in this world lost friends.

That's Christ. Right? not only did he lose friends he lost his life because of of the truth now of course I don't want to make any you know we are not sinless we are not God we not the savior of the world but the truth is that if you are going to be a faithful follower of Christ if you are going to teach truth if you're going to teach truth, you're going to be saying unpopular things and offensive things, which will lead to losing friends. But yet, you will win so many people to biblical theology and really to loving their neighbors. Because that's the thing here. I want to try and help people love their

neighbors. And I want to try and grow in loving my neighbors more. And if you, if you refuse to teach the truth because you're afraid of the consequences. Then we get right back to... One of the things that I've learned a lot through reading history and reading why so many people were quiet during the civil rights movement or during the slave trade is because they were afraid of the consequences of speaking out against slavery and interrogation. We think, how could they do that? How?

How could they be quiet? Well, it's the same reason why we're quiet. The same reason why we're afraid, because they will lose friends, because they will lose families. But my trust and my faith is in that I will never lose my Savior, I'll never lose Christ. And he's my best friend by the grace, you know, by his grace. So teach the truth. We lose friends, yes, but you never lose Christ. And by doing so, you'll never lose the truth, which will help society, and especially in the media, it will help your, you love your neighbors more.

And what a relief, too, that as we see so much chaos and confusion waging in America where people's definitions of justice and what is right and what is wrong changes on a daily basis, just according to people's social whim and what the outrage mob says and their solutions are either, they're both never-ending and non-existent. They're very elusive and intangible. Like what a relief it is for Christians that we have. the ability to stand on the solid rock, Jesus Christ, who is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And we have the Word of God, which is our objective source of truth, and defines justice, defines what hope looks like, what salvation looks like, what loving your neighbor looks like, and we have a gospel that tears down the dividing walls of hostility between brothers and sisters in Christ. And so there's no reason for Christians to apologize for the Word of God, to apologize for the truth. We have a solid, on which we are standing. The rest of the world is standing on sinking sand. And it might look like

they're building something right now, but it won't last past the storm. And so that's something that I think Christians can look forward to. Thank you so much for coming on my show. This was such an edifying conversation, and you just have such a gentle and persistent and strong way of explaining things. I know a lot of people are going to be blessed by this conversation. Can you tell everyone where they can find you and follow you. Yes. People can, you know, find me on, well, first, actually, thank you so much for having me on. Of course. I'm, it's a huge honor. I'm a big fan of the show and it's a huge privilege. I know there's white privilege, but I feel very privileged. Well, thank you. They're relatable privilege. But yeah, they can find me at slow to write.com.

That's my blog. And they can find me on social media to on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram as Slow to Right. They can also find me on Patreon. They choose to want to support me as also Slow to Right. And then also they can look for the organization that I look for, which is CCBR or our website and thekilling.ca and the killing.ca. And they can choose to support what we're doing here in Canada. You know, I think a lot of Americans may not know this,

but Canada is the only, essentially really the only nation in the world. Next to, I suppose, are the two communist nations in North Korea and China who have no laws at all against abortion. So abortion is completely, I know you guys have had some states recently who have been expanding abortion to make it completely legal towards the end of the pregnancy. And it's been the case here for over the last 40 years, or 30 years, I should say. So, yeah, so just, you know, if you choose to want to either be praying for us or supporting us and the killing.com, please do so.

Well, thank you so much. This was an awesome conversation, and I will see you on Twitter. Thank you. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed,

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