Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 294 | Leaving Critical Race Theory For Biblical Unity | Guest: Monique Duson

Episode Date: August 28, 2020

Monique Duson explains how she spent two decades advocating for critical race theory and how her thought process worked during that time. When she began to acknowledge the contradictions between critical race theory and Scripture, Monique embraced biblical unity and a Christian worldview. Monique breaks down the movements we're seeing in social justice, and she explains how they differ from the Gospel.  Today's Links: https://www.centerforbiblicalunity.com/ https://alliebethstuckey.com/book

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. I'm so excited about the conversation that we are about to have today about critical theory and critical race theory, what these worldviews are and why they're incongruent with Christianity. If you have not listened to my conversation with Neil Shinvi about critical theory, you know, I highly recommend you do that. He gives a very thorough explanation of what it is. But today,

we expound upon that with a different interviewee. And we talk about why the gospel contradicts in such a beautiful and liberating way, the worldview and the propositions of critical theory. And we talk about how we as Christians can combat it with the truth of God's word. Before we get into the conversation, I want to remind you guys, you're not enough and that's okay escaping the toxic culture of self-love. Thank you so much to everyone who's bought the book. You can buy the audiobook. You can buy the e-book or you can buy this wherever you get your books.

Just go to Alliebethstucky.com slash book. And you can see all the places where you can purchase online. Also, you can buy it at Barnes & Noble, your local bookstore. Might be available at your public library as well. But it goes through if you don't already know, if you're new to the podcast, It goes through five myths that young women are fed today in this culture of self-love. You're perfect the way you are. You can't love other people until you love yourself.

You determine your own truth. We talk about where these lies show up and then why they're damaging and then we combat them with truth and with the truth of God's word. And so many of you have reached out to me, it's just meant so much to me how much this book has meant to you guys who have read it. So thank you so much. If you've read the book, please leave a five-star review on Amplank. Amazon. That would just mean so much to me and make sure that you join a book club with

Ali Stucky on Facebook. If you are a woman, that's Women's Book Club with Alley Stuckey on Facebook. We are going through the book together. Okay, without further ado, Monique, thank you so much for joining me. Thanks so much for having me. Yes, can you tell everyone who may not be familiar who you are and what you do? Well, my name is Monique Usan and I'm the founder of the Center for Biblical Unity. We are a ministry that specifically advocates for unity within the church from a historically Christian or biblical perspective. So we look back at the first 300 years of the church, the early church.

How did the early church handle issues of what was then known as partiality and favoritism? How did they handle those kind of issues? How did they handle issues of justice? And we bring that into our current situation and look at like, how should we be doing justice. How should we be treating issues of racism or partiality in the church today as opposed to the secular framework critical race theory? And what inspired you to begin this endeavor? Well, I actually upheld the worldview of critical race theory for nearly 20 years. Wow. And after having conversations with my friend Krista Bontrager, who's also my ministry partner and an intern at work, and then the

Lord's work in my own heart, things just started to fall in place. So I went to work and I had an intern and she came to work crying about how students of color were treating her and talking about her whiteness and her white privilege and her white fragility and that she shouldn't speak because she's white and she's only speaking from a place of white privilege. And then in having conversations with Krista and she's a theologian and just begin to challenge the way that I thought about scripture. You know, where do you get this idea from scripture? And how do you, how do you look at that in comparison to this scripture? Like, you can't just take one scripture out of the Bible and say, well, this is my whole definition for upholding this worldview. So it was, it was mainly those two

people and a lot of conversations with the Lord about God. And, you know, I, I care a lot about justice. Why isn't this meshing up? Why are people so angry if we're doing your work? And He just began to take me through scripture and take me back. And yeah, from there, it was just an unfolding of a paradigm. We've had Neil Shen v. on this podcast before. So we've talked pretty thoroughly about critical theory. But there are a lot of people who maybe didn't listen to that episode. And they have no idea what we're talking about when we say critical race theory.

So can you break that down for us? Yes. In the simplest of terms, critical race theory is just a look at who are these? oppressed and who are the oppressors within society based on race and how do we redistribute the power? Okay. So power being wealth or economics, those kind of things. And were you raised a Christian?

I kind of half and half. So my early childhood, my grandmother took me to church, but that wasn't like my own relationship. It wasn't until I was about 16 that I went, my friend from high school invited me to go to youth group. And that's where I became completely vested within Christianity. I started my own relationship with the Lord. And from the time I was 16 onward, yes, I have. And how did you, after that, kind of get sucked into what you have called, you call yourself an ex-SJW Christian, who obviously had a critical theory worldview? How did you get pushed into that perspective in that

world. I think that I grew up in South L.A. and just hearing a lot of stuff, it just seemed like that was, this is the way that we talk and this is what must be true. So looking at things like a glass ceiling or the idea that, you know, blacks and people of color will always have some form of poverty because of how white people are, quote unquote, you know, these, these were the ideas and things that were talked about from my elementary classroom to my friends' homes, to my own home. And so when I went away to university, I went to a small Christian university out here. And when I studied sociology, I was introduced to the social theories.

Critical race theory being a social theory and coming down the line from critical theory and Marxism, I was introduced to it. And my professors really just made it. seem like it was true. Like this is the way that you look at the world. This is the explanation for our, our injustices, for our inequities. It is the idea that there's, you know, what we would call today whiteness or white privilege. And, you know, the way that we, the way that we counter these things is by being an anti-racist. So it is by speaking out. It's by reading these books. It's by doing this work. And so I spent a lot of my time in homeless services and working with youth. And so between

those things, it was to empower people of color, empower those who were impoverished and living in poverty. How do we help to elevate their voice and give them a pathway out of that? And did you think, apparently you did at the time, that critical race theory, what you just described is completely congruent with Christianity. What were some of the messages or the ideas that helped you think that, okay, you know, this is the way that God wants me to perceive justice and to pursue justice, kind of wedding the Bible with this critical race theory. How did you come to be convinced of that? Well, I think that there's a redefinition of terms and even almost like the sleight of hand kind of thing. So in Michael, where it says that we should

do justice, well, we have within critical race theory and within social justice a completely different idea of what's just. Equal treatment of all people. Yes, that is, that's something that I believe in because everyone is created within the Christian worldview with equal dignity, value, and worth. We all are image bearers of God. Now, when I look at how people should be treated and wanting inclusivity and all the voices to come to the table. These are things that I believe Christians could also uphold. Like we don't want to necessarily leave someone out intentionally and show favoritism. We don't want to show favoritism to the rich and we don't want to show it to the poor.

But that conversation is easily brought in to things like religion. So religious minorities. And how do I have inclusion with a religious minority? So what is? And when we thread that out, what is it? that really mean? Does that mean that I'm willing to have an imam in the pulpit? Or when we look at the LGBTQ situation, does that mean when we speak about inclusivity and having all the voices at the table that we are now willing to have someone within LGBTQ to preach on a Sunday morning because we are

being inclusive? There are questions that are asked within social justice. Like, well, you know, we want to be inclusive of all people. We don't want to leave anyone out. So these things, should also be allowed. Okay, gotcha. And correct me if I'm wrong. Critical race theory, like you explained, it's chiefly concerned with power dynamics. So it is looking at the world and basically everything in the world,

every structure, every interaction through the lens of the oppressed versus the oppressor. And how you assign those labels, the oppressed versus the oppressor, depends on things like skin color, on things like sexual orientation, on things like religion. I guess specifically in critical race theory, it depends just strictly on your melanin count. But also, I think it also depends on you can be, for example, a black person who a critical race theorist would say is not a real black person

because you are internalizing white supremacy by repeating the ideas of the oppressor. Right? Is that correct? that's kind of the perspective. That is. That is. Okay. So. Yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, sorry. Go ahead. No, no, please. Further expound upon that and kind of clarify or correct anything that I got wrong, just so people really understand, like, this is, this is the perspective and tell us how it's manifesting itself as well. So right now within critical race theory, what you hear a lot of is elevate black voices. But it's very tribalistic.

The voices that you want to elevate are the ones. who sound like you. If they don't sound like you, so if you're, you have a voice like mine that says, hey, we should not adopt a secular framework in the church and that critical race theory is extremely divisive. It doesn't end in unity. Then my voice would be considered like a pre-encounter phase. I haven't come into the actuality and the understanding of my own oppression. I am actually blinded by white supremacy or whiteness.

And I am now participating or using my voice on behalf of. of an oppressive system. Okay. And who gets to decide? Who decides what black voices to elevate? Like, is there a person behind this all saying, okay, these are the black voices that we're going to elevate and these are the kinds of ideas that we're not. Like, I'm sure that you saw that the museum in D.C.

for African American history and culture, they had a whole page on their website on whiteness that said whiteness is being punctual. Whiteness is being organized, carrying about things. like hard work and the nuclear family, who decides that that is whiteness and therefore that is oppressive and wrong and Marxism and leftism and basically communism in some ways is blackness. Where did that come from? I have no idea. I don't know who the black judge is.

Who's the one who says this is whiteness versus blackness. I do not know. I just know that it almost seems like consensus. And so as the tribe moves forward, then the tribe decides, well, we don't want this because this doesn't reflect us. Or anything that has to do with slavery is automatically a part of a white system.

Anything that goes against the, or stands for, I'm sorry, the hegemony or the hegemonic power, those in leadership and those with wealth. If my voice seems to affirm that, then I am definitely going against the tribal rhetoric of the community of the left or the community of critical race theory and social justice. And why is this perspective so attractive to so many people? I mean, it just seems like a lot of young people of all shades of melanin are picking this up in college. and they are just eating it up. Why do you think that is?

Well, I think that a number of universities are just indoctrinating young people with this and saying that this is right. Like, when I was in university, this is where I learned all the tenants and the statistics. And I was told, I was told this is right. And I think when you're impressionable

and you want to do good and this is what you're told is right, you latch onto it. the voice of things like Black Lives Matter is very loud right now. They seem to be making moves within society to say, hey, you know, racism is wrong. Now, especially within the Christian framework, I want to, and this is again my own story of I want to stand for justice. The Lord tells us that we should do justice. What is the framework to do that?

If my heart is young and impressionable, especially, and I'm not fully investigating the word, then it's easy to get wrapped up into it because you're well-meaning. Right, right. I think that it has to do with indoctrination. It has to do with social bullying. I mean, I certainly knew a lot of Christians that posted the Black Square with hashtag Black Lives Matter on that day. And, you know, I think that they were well-intentioned. but I think that there was probably a lack of research there to say, okay, who is driving the bandwagon that I am on right now?

And who is defining justice? We've got a lot of raised fists in the name of justice right now and a million different definitions of what that means. So does justice mean redistribution? Does it mean retribution? Does it mean revenge? Does it mean getting back at white people for something that their ancestors did? What does justice actually mean? And it seems like people recite Micah 6-8, which you just did.

They say do justice, but they don't look at something like Exodus 23 that talks about, hey, you don't show partiality towards the poor man. You don't show the partiality towards the rich man either. I think that's in Leviticus. And you don't spread a false report. You don't join hands with the many to spread a false report about someone and to try to make someone seem guilty when they're not. And yet that seems to be the entire movement of Black Lives Matter and a lot of these leftist

revolutionaries to spin a narrative whether it's based on fact or not. And a lot of Christians are doing it in the name of Micah 6-8. So what do you say to those people who seem to be very confused? Hey, this is Steve Deist. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day's show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular.

This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. I think exactly what you just did. You put put forth other scripture and you ask them, well, what do you do in light of this? What do you do with things like James that says that you shouldn't, considering something like microaggressions, that you shouldn't just put motive to someone's heart? How do you know that this was racist without evidence, without going to the person specifically?

There's no room right now in social justice or critical race theory to actually go to someone and have the conversation. There's no room for forgiveness. What do you do with Matthew 18 where it says that we should be offering our forgiveness? In critical race theory or especially social justice, you get the idea of black forgiveness. And so I'm not sure if you remember that incident with Botham Gene. I do. He was, I think it was Botham who was actually killed in his apartment by the white police officer.

His brother hugged the police officer in the courtroom and social media went crazy because of this idea of black. forgiveness. We don't offer our forgiveness so quickly. People need to work for our forgiveness. That's antithetical to the scripture. We don't live like that. I should be giving my forgiveness with with with with regularity. Like I should be looking like how can I forgive and continue in relationship with someone as opposed to withholding it? Right. There's um you know James who in the book of James where it talks about not showing favoritism and not, you know, regarding one over the other. How do we treat each other? These things are questions that we should be asking. How do you reconcile these actions with the word of God? Now, if they're not a Christian, then we don't have that

common ground. But we can, I believe social justice warriors are extremely concerned with the dignity of humanity, the dignity of people. So we can ask the question, how is this affirming someone's dignity? Now, they'll say, well, you know, I'm fighting for people of color. I'm fighting for marginalized. Great. I can be with you on speaking out against those things. But how is this impacting the individual who shop you just broke in?

The shop you just looted. How does that affirm the dignity value and worth of another person? Because CRT is a secular humanist framework, they're not going to believe. believe in, you know, the things that we believe in, but how does it affirm their dignity? Right. And ask questions from there. Yes, absolutely. And I think that that goes back to that different definition of justice. The critical race theory, I would say they believe in a collectivist justice.

And so they see the whole town of Kenosha, for example, as implicit in what happened to Jacob Blake, whereas biblical justice is direct. It's proportionate. It waits for. for the facts. You can't even accuse someone based on one witness. You have to have multiple witnesses. There is due process that God advocates for. That is biblical justice. It's compassionate justice. It doesn't say that we shouldn't punish the wrongdoer, but that we should do it in the right way. And then collectivist justice says, well, I'm going to go scorched earth because of either not really what happened, but what I believe happened. I'm going to ascribe motives based on not reality, but critical race theory, which says that police no matter what are guilty because they are

agents of the bourgeois. It's all very confusing. It's all very complex. But I think that you're absolutely right. When we point people to scripture and we point them to examples of biblical justice, it's very obvious that critical race theory and a biblical worldview, they just don't co. They just don't coincide. Do you think that's an okay and accurate way to?

put that? Yeah, definitely. I want to go back to something you just said about biblical justice. Again, my ministry partner, Krista, she did this whole thing on justice and something that I didn't realize was that there is actually justice in ways that we walk out with the accused or the guilty party. There has to be justice for the victim and then also for those who are accused of being the victimizer. So if a police officer is accused of race, racism or accused of, you know, shooting someone, we can't go and immediately just, you know, without evidence, condemn them. Biblically, how do we stand with the accused? And this isn't, like, this isn't something that I could hardly get behind, you know, when I first was walking out

of this worldview. But scripture says there is, there's a way that we do justice with the accused that does not bring some kind of immediate condemnation to them. There has to be witnesses. There has to be evidence. Right. And I don't believe that many Christians are, you know, considering that. Right. Now, back to your question of, is this, you know, something that's compatible with

the Christian worldview? I do not believe that a secular humanist framework can be compatible with the Christian worldview. I honestly believe that, you know, God has given us all that we need. for life and godliness. And so as we look in the scriptures, we will find the things that we need to move forward that don't include things like rioting or, you know,

stealing or bearing false witness. It doesn't include those things. What's his name now? Sean King. This is a perfect example of bearing false witness. He's willing now because they won't release the name of the officer to who shot Jacob Blake. He's, I'm just going to start listing

off names. That would bear false witness potentially and, and, you know, put other people in harm's way. As Christians, we don't participate like that. Right. Yeah, that's exactly what that Exodus 23 passage is talking about, that you don't join hands with a wicked person to spread a false report. But the funny thing is, is that I think critical race theorists could get on board with showing patience and mercy and giving the benefit of the doubt to certain kinds of criminals. There's all kinds benefited the doubt given to someone like Jacob Blake or to give into a lot of people in prison. In fact, the oppressed versus the oppressor worldview often sees criminals as victims of oppression, people without moral agency, but people who committed crimes are in prison because

of a racist system. So I think it's also important for people to see the vast inconsistencies that come with a critical theory worldview, that some criminals are given the benefit of the doubt, not because of what they actually did, but simply because of the color of their skin or the oppressive system that they are a part of what they might call the prison industrial complex or the like school to jail pipeline or whatever it is, they call it. But they are not willing to give the benefit of the doubt to other kinds of people that are accused of, say, you know, shooting someone like a police officer. So there are a lot of contradictions to that worldview. Would you agree? I do agree. There are a lot of contradictions. There's contradictions, especially like within the Christian framework versus the CRT framework when we look at things like our identity. So CRT is only looking at oppressed and oppressor. This is the focus and your identity. You are either a person of color and you are oppressed or you are white and you are the oppressor. In Christianity, we are either in Christ or in Adam.

Like our fundamental identities are, there's such a stark contrast between our fundamental identities. And then looking at the way that some CRT people or social justice warriors uphold things like racial reconciliation. And I'll put that in air quotes. You know, what does CRT do that leads us to being reconciled? There's nothing that it'll do because it actually is only looking at who are the oppressed and who are the oppressors. And as long as I can't change my skin color, I'm always going to. to sit on the side of the oppressed. And so to me, when we look at scripture, though, we are reconciled because of the work

of the cross. So what more work needs to be done for our reconciliation? There isn't any more work. Now, we can talk about how we walk out unity, but again, critical race theory and social justice, they are, I say antithetical to the gospel. They definitely contradict. You're talking about the school to prison pipeline. and how we release prisoners or who is guilty, who is responsible, is the word that I would use,

there's a conflation or even a lack of personal responsibility in many of these cases. It's like, well, this person should be let out of prison because they were raised in poverty. Well, what about personal responsibility? How do we uphold personal responsibility within Christianity? we see that I am held accountable for my sins. I'm held accountable for the things that I do. I'm not going to go back. If we look at things like reparations, I'm not going to go back.

And Christ isn't going to go back and look at me and say, well, because your mom did this, I'm going to hold you accountable. There's an idea of personal responsibility within Christianity. And we aren't seeing this within society. Yes. And there's not personal responsibility for people. who the critical theorists say are the side of the oppressed, but there is not only personal, but collective responsibility for those who are on the side of the oppressor. And it's important

to point out that when we talk about the oppressed versus the oppressor, we're not talking about actual oppressed or actual oppressor necessarily. We are talking about perceived oppressor and perceived oppressed. And so you could be talking about someone, you know, someone who was raised without a dad in a trailer park in Appalachia, a white person who is still going to be seen as on the side of the oppressor because the color of their skin, whether or not they have ever oppressed a single person. And you're going to be talking about someone like Beyonce who is on the side of the oppressed or LeBron James, who is on the side of the oppressed simply because of the color of their skin. So again, critical theory is not only contradictory. It's not only very

obviously unjust, but it's extremely superficial. And like you said, there are two categories God says for people, it is in Adam or in Christ, those who are dead in sin or alive in Christ, those who are living in the flesh or a new creation. Those are the identities, the only identities that God gives us. And within that, God says, don't show partiality to people, whether they're rich, whether they're poor. I think that would probably include the color of people's skin. Why is it that people are just, you hear that, there will be people who listen to this conversation, who say that this is a white supremacist conversation, this is denying the pain of the marginalized. Why does that very simple fact?

that, hey, we really should treat all people equally as made in the image of God. Hey, there are two categories, according to the gospel that people are, we should do justice in a way that is actually just. Why does that make people so angry? Because I think it doesn't lift up the voices that they are saying need to be lifted up. I think what people are doing is taking America's history, which I think we can, you know, America has its own history, just like every other nation has its own history. We have a history with racism. And then you get media and other voices within society who come in and say, well, look, this has always been racist.

This is all of everything that you're seeing is racism. And people latch onto it. It must be because it's in the news. It must be because it's being upheld by the Democratic Party. It must be because of X, Y, and Z reasons without doing research, without studying, without looking at scripture, they're jumping on to a world's view so that they can do good. Again, I think it's many well-intentioned people who just are not looking behind, kind of like in The Wizard of Oz, they're not looking behind the curtain to see, well, who are the people that are actually

promoting this worldview? Who are the people that are actually screaming out that everything is racist? If everything is racist, then why are we seeing an increase in jobs within the African-American community. Like what how do we how do we explain that? How do we balance this out if everything is racist? Right. Right. Could you give some advice to people who are Christians? I would say particularly Christian women are susceptible to a lot of this because we're susceptible to white guilt because we don't want to be racist. We're not racist and we desperately want to prove that we're not racist. And so you get a lot of white Christian women who say, well, I'm going to be anti-racist. I, you know, black lives matter.

I'm going to post the black square. I'm going to repeat all the talking points. I'm going to immediately automatically latch on to every narrative that the media puts out when a black person is killed because I want to prove that I'm a compassionate person. But maybe they're listening to this podcast and they're realizing, oh, I didn't realize I was perpetuated in unbiblical worldview. What would be your advice, your encouragement, your wisdom for them? is that there's no amount of work that you can do to make us one more reconciled one.

And so when many white women, and again, I get these emails every day. You know, I don't want to raise a racist child. I don't want to be racist. I want to live with my brothers and sisters in unity. I want to be reconciled. There's no greater work that you can do to make us more reconciled. if we are believers, then we are reconciled. We are in Christ.

We are in the family of God. That's the first thing. Two, we can look at critical race theory as a worldview of works. And what we need to be in is a world's view of grace and of prayer and of compassion. If we are living from those points and from a foundation of love, love, the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself, there's nothing more that you need to prove. You don't have to enter into this works-based religion or framework and say, I have to do enough. So now, you know, culture's telling me white silence is

violence. So I need to speak out and post the black square and do this and do that. No, you need to get in a conversation with the Lord. You need to be in prayer and find out what he would have you do. Start from a place of relationship. And some people will say, well, I don't have a black friends. I don't know any person of color. That's okay. Start a conversation with the people you are in connection and community with. Begin a conversation of unity from that standpoint. You are, when you get together with your eight to 10 close friends, you're in a diverse community. You can have conversations of, well, what do you think about unity? What do you think about racism within your community? And then as you guys go out, take that out to the broader community.

but start with a place of love. Understand that everyone is created with dignity, value, and worth. We are image bearers, including the person who has less melanin in their skin than me. Right now, culture is saying that, and especially I find within the church, that white people are first guilty. They are oppressive. They are first bad. If we can just put it out there, like plainly, white people are first bad.

And we don't, this is not how we participate. So I would say be free from that narrative and that mindset and know that you've been created with dignity, value, and worth in the image of God. And you have something to contribute within the body and within within community. So for the white person, and we're speaking in those terms because that is, that's the framework that critical race theory has given us in helping people try to kind of get out of that. I think we do have to, you know, we have to say that for the, for the white woman who does sit, sit down maybe with their black friends. The black friend who says, you know, you white people have white privilege and everyone is a victim of systemic racism.

There should be reparations. I'm on board of Black Lives Matter. And if you're not, I'm worried that you're racist. There are friendships that have been seriously hurt because of this mentality. So what does the white Christian say to their black Christian friend who seems to have bought into critical theory and critical race theory? How do you lovingly? push back on that. I think you try to win the next conversation, but you live in truth. So we can

ask the question of, you know, biblically, where do you see that? How do you see us when the scripture says that we are now brothers and sisters? You know, how do you see us living in the same family from this standpoint? When we talk about things like systemic racism and it's everywhere, well, how are you defining systemic racism? Are you saying that the entire system is broken, like every system everywhere across all time? Or are you saying that there may be pieces of a system that are broken? What do you think should be done to be able to correct the system? How do you see reparations as not being theft?

If I didn't have direct relationship with slaves, how do you see my participation in a system like slavery, thus needing my reparations? Where do you find the concept of reparations in the Bible. And most people will go to Zekeos. Yeah. You know, they will.

But again, Zechias was doing something he was giving back out of the compelling in his own heart, the conviction in his own heart he took from his own and gave to the people that he directly impacted. Right. If I'm a white person, I'm going to ask, well, I can give reparations. I can. Like, there's nothing to stop me. But shouldn't that come from out of the conviction and compelling of my own heart to the people that I have specifically wronged

if I'm going to participate according to Zekees. Right. These are questions that we can ask and people are going to get upset. So we can know that right off the bat, though. We can know like, you know, this conversation might be uncomfortable.

We can give grace. We can give forgiveness. We can ask for forgiveness. We can, you know, say, hey, okay, this conversation seems to be going down a road that seems a little heavy. How about we continue it another time? Take a break.

Yeah. And what I've had to understand is that in black and white, because I've had, I get messages from white people all the time that I am on the wrong side of history, that I am, we got a message this morning that I'm garbage. You know, so, you know, people will get upset. And at some point, you just have to stand for truth and understand that in allowing people to have their own thoughts and their own beliefs and views and you standing for truth, it may be. may create a riff in your friendship. Right, right. But we are called to stand for truth. Yes, and we don't have to apologize for it. In fact, Christ is our defender.

And if he is the way the truth in the life, and if we believe that his word is truth, which as Christians we do, we don't have to acquiesce and we don't have to worry about meeting the world's definitions of justice and compassion because we are actually seeing those play out right now in the streets of Kenosha and the streets of Seattle in Portland in Oakland. We're seeing the secular critical theory definition of justice and

compassion played out right now. We're seeing collectivist justice that justice, that is not based on fact, that is not direct, that is not proportionate, that is not truthful as God's justice is. And it means destruction for innocent lives and livelihoods. It means punishment for people who did not commit a crime. And if that is not the definition of injustice, Like, I don't know what it is, but you get people who say, well, riots are the voice of the unheard. And so you just need to sit back. I've heard Christian pastors, evangelical pastors, say, you just need to sit back and ask yourself, well, why is this happening before you criticize the rioters? Do you think that that's the right approach?

No, but I hear what you're saying. One of the questions that gets me is, well, you need to ask yourself, why are you uncomfortable with this? I'm uncomfortable because it's my business. You know, like, they're burning my business down. This makes me a little uncomfortable. Right. But this is what we're being approached with. And it's because it's coming into evangelicalism in huge waves that we are now thinking we need to adopt a secular framework in order to be unified, in order to walk in unity or to do justice when scripture is clear on how we do justice.

And we can bring that over and say, okay, within our modern context today, what does that look like? like. Why is it that the church? I mean, otherwise, it seems like solid evangelical pastors who I grew up listening to some of them, one of them in particular that I'm thinking of, who has totally, it seems like given in to this rhetoric is soft towards things like critical theory. They're preaching white privilege from the pulpit. What happened? Like, what happened to these people's worldview? How did they let something like this creep in? Is it the fault of the church? Have we been, we? We've been. We've on this? Like, do you have any idea of how this became so pervasive within the evangelical church? I think there's a couple things. So one, I don't think that there are as many pastors actually going to

seminary right now. And so without having a seminary background, you're not able to understand clearly this is what the word is saying. This is what it means. This is how we exegeat scripture. I think that's a problem. Secondly, I think there's a problem of white guilt. And culture is saying this is how you fix it. You fix all of the wrongs of society by joining this framework. And so many people are jumping in like that. I think when we look back to the time of like the civil rights era and things like that, you had the liberal church that joined in, but the evangelical conservative church wasn't so prevalent within that movement. And now there's a lot of pressure to say, where have you been?

Why aren't you speaking out? Why aren't you doing something? And now the only something that they think they can do is join critical race theory. Yeah. Yeah. And they have believed that the civil rights movement is the same as the movement that's happening today. But I've had a couple people on my podcast, Samuel Say, recently pointed this out, which I

thought was a good point, is that the premise of the civil rights movement was just the manifestation of our founding values, that all men and women are created equal in the eyes of God, and therefore they should be treated equally under the law. That was a true premise with a true pursuit towards that. That's not what we're arguing about today. In many cases, it's starting with a completely different premise. In many cases, it's starting with a false premise. And that false premise is the oppressor versus the oppressed. That no matter your station in life or what you are directly responsible for. You are in those two categories and we assign guilt and innocence based on that. Everything that happens between the oppressed and the oppressor, no matter the situation.

So a situation like Jacob, like, it doesn't matter what was going on before or after that shooting. But that is why a lot of people ask, you know, why does Black Lives Matter only? They don't care that Black people are dying. They care about how Black people are dying. So they don't care about, you know, the hundreds of young men that are dying in Chicago. But I think it's because, of this critical theory framework, that it's not really about what is happening. It's about why something is happening and if it's between the oppressor and the oppressed.

And I think that is part of why we're seeing just so much confusion and talking over each other right now. And honestly, I don't know what the conclusion will be. What do you think? Yes. And oh, we could get onto a whole Black Lives Matter conversation another day because I, I completely see that as being so destructive within the black community.

But yes, they are concerned with who is dying at the hands of white people, who are dying at the hands of the oppressed. And it doesn't matter if a white person is trying to defend themselves. It doesn't matter if a black person is trying to rob them or not even a black person. Any person of any color is trying to rob a white person and that white person defends themselves. And the person of color ends up dying. It's automatically racist. We automatically need to go out. and riot. This is the rhetoric that's being put forth right now. Now, where does this land us in the end?

When we look at critical theory, we look at the overturning and the uprising. And I think this is what we're seeing within community right now. You know, when we look at Kenosha, when we look at Seattle and things like that, it is the uprising. It is truly the overturning. If we play that all the way out, like it, it doesn't land us in a very good place. Yeah, it lands us in the same place that every left-wing revolution over the past hundred years has landed us from the Bolshevik revolution to today. It always is done in the name of some form of social justice, this anti-colonialism, anti-Americanism, imperialism.

If you study any of the left-wing revolutions, whether it's North Korea or Mao's China or Paul Potts, Cambodia, or the USSR, the Bolshevik revolution, evolution. It's all the same thing that in the name of equality and justice, the same thing in Venezuela and Cuba, we are going to defeat who we say are the oppressors and they win over the rich through shame and they went over the poor through encouraging resentment. They raise them up. They destroy the systems in the name of justice. And then what happens? It's never, ever, ever been liberation and prosperity. Zimbabwe, another example. It is always more destruction, more oppression, further disparities, suffering, poverty.

And so, and I'm always just so curious, what do the people who are going out and destroying the cities in the name of critical theory, knowingly or unknowingly, what do they seek to build, at least ideally? And I just, this is one of my last questions, but when you were a part of this world, what did you see as the utopia or the kind of world that you wanted to grow? I would say equity. I would say that there would be all voices at the table that, especially like going back to my years in university, it was predominantly white university. We read predominantly white, white author textbooks.

And I was concerned. I was like, you know, what about voices like mine? And so from this point, I think people innocently get in and they're like, well, we need to elevate all the voices. But they aren't understanding that all the voices can actually be more problematic, that this idea of inclusivity and the way that we go about it. If we're not going about it from a Christ-centered view, then we are automatically in trouble. The idea of utopia that's being put forward today is this thing of equity and equality, that everyone will have like this equal wealth distribution, that everyone, you know,

there won't be any poverty. But in scripture, we find that the poor will. be with you always. So this endeavor will be with us forever. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And God obviously cares for the poor. He obviously cares for the oppressed, and he calls us to care for the poor and to care for the oppressed. God very much cares about that throughout Scripture. He cares about the foreigner. He cares about the oppressed. He, and Jesus obviously calls his followers to care for these people. And so I think that is also where things kind of get conflated is that, yes, absolutely, we're supposed to care for the oppressed and the poor and

all of that. And God is the defender of these people. And that is what makes him so awesome. One of the things, it makes him so awesome and compassionate. And we are supposed to lid that out. But again, I think it goes back to what you encourage people to do is to define our terms. So what does an oppressed person actually mean, according to scripture? What does poverty look like? How are we supposed to care for these people? Is it compulsory? Or out of the goodness of our heart, like the early church did, are we supposed to give everything that we have to these people? And also just looking throughout history, what has happened when we have had total redistribution of so-called power and capital to the point of trying to force communism on people? Has it worked? Has it resulted in a

utopia? Has it resulted in happiness and prosperity? And has it resulted in a better life for the least of these? We know that it has it. So, you gave such good advice when you were talking about, you know, speaking to the person who might disagree with you on this is pointing to scripture, defining terms. I think that is kryptonite critical theory and asking clarifying questions also kryptonite to critical theory. So yes, that was such good advice. And if you could, just for our last question, could you please explain one more time the difference between the directives and the goal in the heart of critical theory and the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Well, I would say that the definition or the directive of critical theory would be to look at who are the oppressed and who are the oppressors within a society. And how do we redistribute wealth? How do we overturn those who have the power, those who sit in a place of power so that those who are oppressed also have power? or overturn those who have power and actually the oppressed would have more power. Now, within Christianity, what we see is that the rich and the poor, we have versions of righteous rich and versions of righteous poor. We see a heart attitude. We see something that is based on our own personal responsibility, our own free will. There isn't a theft mentality in the gospel.

I don't have to have someone take my money and redistribute it in order for there to be equality, in order for me to be seen as an equal with you before the father. This is where critical race theory or critical theory really gets off and goes off on its own sidelin is how it's saying we achieve equality. There is no foundational equality between us, which, again, is something completely different than what's in Christianity. We see a complete redefinition of history and what history means in critical race theory. So critical race theory, again, is always looking back to oppressed and oppressor. In Christianity, we are looking at Jesus.

You know, all of history points us to Jesus. And everything from now until the Lord returns is pointing to Jesus. is pointing to Jesus. There are some, again, I spoke about identity. There's some foundational issues with who we are intrinsically. So I'm not sure if I'm answering all of your question or if. Yeah. But there are some definite contradictions, I call them,

between critical race theory and critical theory. I'm sorry, critical race theory and Christianity. And we have to understand. understand what are the terms? How are we defining things like racism? Because if we aren't clear on that, we'll join in with the culture's rhetoric, not understanding that anyone can participate in racism. It's an issue of the heart. It's an issue of spirituality. How do we define justice? How are we defining oppressed and oppressor, as you mentioned? Yes, it's an issue of the heart, not hegemony, which is like power structures, correct? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, and that can, as we see, that can just be such a destructive mentality ascribing guilt and innocence based not on people's real guilt and innocence, but again, based on a perception. And critical theory is an entire worldview. You can't have two worldviews at the same time. One is going to give in to the other. And I think that is so often I've seen it in my own friend's lives where they say their politics change because they say, well, this side is the only side that cares about the oppressed. the only side that cares about racism. These are the biggest problems in our society. And they start without realizing it,

changing their definitions of justice, changing their definitions of racism, changing their definitions of sin and responsibility. And I see their theology fall apart. I see them no longer affirming that Jesus is the only way, the only truth, and the only life. They stop affirming things like biblical marriage. And it's like, hang on,

how did those two things happen? Because they don't seem like they have to do anything with each other until you realize that it is a hard. holistic worldview that affects every single thing that you believe. And I think the wonderful news is that you articulated so well is that the gospel has a better message. God has a better definition of justice. And he has a better definition of solutions for unity. He has a better way of reconciliation than reparations. I mean, he paid for all of that on the cross. Ephesians three is or Ephesians two is very clear that if he can bring the Gentiles and the Jews together

two very disparate groups, he can bring any group together. And we celebrate. I mean, we celebrate that kind of diversity within the body of Christ as long as we remember our unity is in the gospel and is in the cross and not in anything else. And that's such better news. Like, we get to be free from the shackles of critical theory. Would you agree with that? I do agree with that. And the gospel takes it the pressure off of us. It understands that we need something bigger and better than us. We have wicked hearts and it's not to, you know, put us down or anything like that, but that's just the reality of humanity that we have broken relationship with a holy God. And if that's the case, I'm going to need something bigger than myself in order to completely walk out unity,

to walk out ideas of justice that can't be weighed on my shoulders. I'm going to need instruction for how to do that. And that instruction must come from scripture. And the gospel is the great equalizer. Like you want to be equal. We all see ourselves in light of the cross without Christ as totally depraved sinners. Ephesians 2 says we are dead in our sin. There's not different levels of dead. Like you are lifeless and dead. And that is what all of us are no matter our skin color, no matter our socioeconomic class, no matter our background. And that is another reason why it's so incongruent with the critical theory worldview is that we are already equal, apart from Christ and in Christ we are also equal.

And so again, I just think that is the true liberation that Christians get to enjoy. And I just hope and pray that we model that well. And you and the Center for Biblical Unity are certainly helping people do that. Can you remind people where they can find you and where they can find the Center for Biblical Unity? Online, it is Center for Biblical Unity.com on Facebook. It's the Center for Biblical Unity. We are on Instagram, Center for Biblical Unity. You can follow us on Twitter, Biblical underscore Unity.

Everything is the Center for Biblical Unity pretty much. And I'm not alone. I also have my ministry partner, Krista Bontriger, so you can find her there as well. We are, yeah, we're just going to push forward promoting biblical unity and not a worldview that says in order for one voice to be lifted, I must drag down accuse and demean another. Yes. Amen. Well, thank you so much for what you do. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Yeah.

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