Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 297 | The Christian Case for Trump | Guest: Dr. Wayne Grudem

Episode Date: September 4, 2020

The country is in crisis and we must ask a single question: Do we need Donald Trump and Republican policies or Joe Biden and Democrat policies? Dr. Wayne Grudem, professor of theology, joins us to talk about increasingly violent protests, the cultural division in America, key issues for religious studies, and how to find hope in this hostile world.

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. I am so excited about this conversation that I am having today with Dr. Wayne Grudum. I think most of you know exactly who he is. You have probably read as a resource systematic theology, maybe politics according to the Bible, his book Christian ethics.

This person has been a giant in the world of Christian ethics and theology and helping people understand how to read the Bible, study the Bible, and shape their worldview based on the Bible. They have been, he has been so influential to me and helping me shape my worldview according to the Word of God. And I'm so excited to get to talk to him today. Before we talk, just want to remind you guys, you're not enough and that's okay, escaping the toxic culture of self-love. We are walking through this book in Women's Book Club with Albuquer.

Ali-Stekey on Facebook, go to Alliebethstucky.com slash book. It is a resource for young women in particular, but really it can apply to all kinds of people about the top cultural myths that are being fed to us by self-love gurus, why they're incorrect, why they actually lead to destruction and we replace their falsehoods with the truth of God's word. It is a book about good news, why the burdens of self-love are actually too much for us to bear and why the burden that Jesus gives us, which is light, the yoke that Jesus gives us, which is easy, it's far better for us to carry than the burden in the yoke that the world

gives us. Okay, without further ado, here is Dr. Wayne Grudham. Dr. Grudham, thank you so much for joining me. It's good to be with you, Alibah. I think that everyone who is listening knows exactly who you are. They have probably read politics according to the Bible. They've read systematic theology, or they at least have it as a resource on their bookshelf. But in case there are one or two people out there who do not know who you are and what you do, can you give a brief summary of who you are? I bet there are thousands of people who don't know who I am. But I'm a professor at Phoenix Seminary in Arizona.

I have been teaching theology and ethics for 44 years now. and I've gotten into my PhD is in New Testament, but I moved over to teaching what basically systematic theology, which is what the whole Bible teaches about different theological topics. And then I worked into the area of ethics, which is the Bible applying to all of life. And so I wrote a little book on business for the glory of God. That's the Bible applying to business practice.

I wrote a book on the poverty. nations, that's the Bible applying to national policies to bring four nations out of poverty and to prosperity. And I wrote a book on politics according to the Bible, which is seeking to find good biblical-based principles for government to function, so it will serve for the good of the people, not just the good of the rulers. And that has been an influential book. I'm thankful to God for that. Yes. Well, I'm very thankful for that as well. You recently wrote a letter that I read on townhall.com or an open letter to an anti-Trump friend, someone who approached you and said, you know, for these reasons, how can you as a Christian possibly vote for Donald Trump?

Can you talk about why you as a Christian, as an ethics professor, do support Donald Trump? Well, it's basically because of the policies and the actions that he has carried out as a president. He's followed policies that I think are consistent with biblical principles in many cases. I could just mention a few. The conservative judges that he has appointed interpret the law according to the original meaning and the Constitution according to the original meaning of the words, rather than a judge who imposes his own view of what should happen on the name. nation, but even when it's contrary to the meaning of the words of the law for the Constitution.

He's built a stronger military, whereas in the previous administration, our military was underfunded and began to shrink. President Trump has overseen a huge increase in military funding, which is necessary with hostile nations like North Korea, China, Russia, Iran, and so forth. and tax cuts and deregulation that led to the huge expansion of the American economy, which is really important for everyone. Well, I could go down a list of things, moving the American embassy to Israel, becoming a true and genuine friend to Israel and standing with it,

negotiating a remarkable agreement between the United States and the United Arab Emirates, which is the largest city of Dubai, which is headquarters for transportation and finance. in the Middle East. And on and on, I have another list now, another town hall column called 30 Good Things that President Trump has done for America. And the list could go on. So now, my friend wrote me and said, how can you support a man of such evil character? And I wrote back and said, you know, the assessment of someone's character is a judgment call

and it requires taking into account many factors. I've publicly criticized President Trump's previous infidelity in his marriage, marriages. His brash, bombastic behavior is vindictiveness at sometimes at people who disagree with him. And those are character flaws, and I don't want to approve of them. I don't. I disagree with them. But in spite of those character flaws, I realize that everyone has character flaws. He has remarkable courage and faithfulness to his promises.

And he has done things that I think are good for the nation again and again. Again, I really think that his motives deep down are to do what is best for the nation. He doesn't need money. He's got $3,000, $3,000. He's a millionaire three thousand times over. He doesn't need money. He doesn't need further friends or I don't know. You can go down the list of things.

Right. But his desire seems to me to be helped the country. Now, Alibet, people will say to me, doesn't it hurt the Christian gospel when you support such an immoral person? And my response is, it's not the fault of Republicans, it's not the fault of Christians, that the Republican Party and President Trump have moved to endorse and carry out policies of less government, lower taxes, stronger military, conservative judges, and many other things. The Republicans under President Trump have moved closer to biblically based positions on those issues,

and the Democratic Party has moved farther away from those positions. And I've held those positions since I mentioned in this letter since at least 1964 when I read a choice, Not an Echo, and I was a junior in high school, and became involved in the young Republicans campaign for very global. Goldwater for president. He lost disastrously to Lyndon Johnson. But I became convinced that smaller government, lower taxes, strong military, were policies good for a nation. And I've held that for how long is that 36, 56 years. Right. And now President Trump and the Republican Party and the Republican platform come along and favor those policies. Well, it's inevitable that I'm going to say I'll

support a candidate who carries out those policies much more clearly than any Obama administration did or Obama Biden administration did. Right. Is there ever a time? This is something that I've weighed and tried to think through. Is there ever a time when a politician or a presidential candidate supports all of the policies that we agree with, but his character flaws outweigh the that he supports. Is there ever a time when we say, you know what, that character flaw or that moral decision that he made is just, it's just one too far. We just can't vote for this person, even though we agree with all of their policies. Yes, but I'm going to echo what Al Mueller said when he was on an interview with you a few days ago. He said, I'm not going to speculate and get

into hypotheticals. I could say that the Constitution specifies treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors as grounds for impeachment. And those certainly would be areas where if a president committed those crimes would make him unfit for office. But beyond that, I don't think it's the right to speculate. Certainly, I think President Trump, in his conduct within office as president, his conduct has been exemplary in many ways. And people are criticizing him for his life before he became president, before he ran for president. But I'm saying, look at how he has acted now, apart from media distortions. Now, here's another problem, Alibet.

If people watch CBSNBC, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, they're going to get an incredibly imbalanced view of President Trump and his policies. Right. I saw a study by the Media Media Research Center. they took June and July of 2020, they took June and July of 2020 evening newscasts on CBSNBC and ABC and counted the times that there were evaluative statements made about President Trump or Joe Biden. Now, Joe Biden was already the presumptive nominee in the Democratic Party because Bernie Sanders had conceded. And they found for every one positive evaluative statement that people heard about President Trump, they heard 18 negative statements. But more than that, for every negative statement they heard about Joe Biden, they heard 158 negative evaluations of President Trump. Now, when you compare speaking about the two presidential candidates and say, there's a lot of, there's a lot of,

something wrong with one presidential candidate, you say once and you say 158 times something negative about the other presidential candidate, that's not journalism, that's not fair reporting. That's tremendous bias. That's the mainstream media campaigning on behalf of one presidential candidate and attempting character assassination on the part of the other candidate. And I think the American people have to be aware of that. I would say, Alibeth, your listeners, if you're listening to ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBC, or the New York Times, the Washington Post, and getting your information about President Trump from that, you're getting false information a lot of the time. And I'm thankful that we have the Wall Street Journal editorial page.

We have the Fox News and other conservative outlets for news, but they're being overwhelmed by this incredibly negative hostile press coverage. Yes. And it's not even just the press. You could argue that social media is skewed towards anti-Trump and certainly anti-conservative rhetoric. Certainly Hollywood is, academia is. And so there are lots of cultural and media megaphones that are all saying the same message. And it can be very difficult, I think, to cut through the noise.

Now, what about the people who are listening to this who say, okay, you know what, I don't even care about his personal flaws, but they don't even understand why conservative politics, like you said, smaller government, lower taxes, deregulation, they don't understand why that aligns with a Christian worldview. There are a lot of young people who believe that socialism is actually much more biblical and much more compassionate, and conservatism doesn't care. for the least of these at all. So can you clarify that? Why, according to the Bible, are you a conservative? Well, socialism is dehumanizing because it takes away freedom of choice in many areas of life and lets the government make choices for us. If I have a government that taxes me 50, 60, 70% of my income in order to distribute the

money as it sees fit to other people, that's controlling my life. and socialism does that. It's dehumanizing and it fails every place it's tri. We can see the extreme results of socialism, say, in the nation of Cuba, which is horribly impoverished, just, I think, 90 miles or so from Florida. And it could be a wealthy, prosperous nation with freedom for its people, but instead they're enslaved in horrible poverty. That's where socialism leads.

It leads to ultimately communism. Socialism I define as the government ownership of the businesses, factories, what's called the means of production. And the more government ownership we have of those things, the more government control we have of our lives. And that takes away human freedom, takes away human stewardship and the ability to use our resources and our life in ways that we believe God is calling us to live. the Democratic Party is also increasingly and not only tending towards socialist policies but it's increasingly tending toward hostile anti-Christian policies

forcing artistic professionals such as cakemakers florists photographers use their artistic skills to endorse same-sex marriages which are contrary to the teachings of scripture but and then face with

incredible fines if they don't conform and comply with approving conduct that they think is morally wrong, forcing nurses and medical technicians and doctors to participate in abortions, even though they're contrary to their conscience. And they do that only a threat of loss of their jobs. I would point out for another example, allowing biological males who claim to be transgender. and female to have access to women's locker rooms and bathrooms and sports teams, transgender males, transgender females who are biologically male have set all sorts of state records in Connecticut in women's sports because men's bodies are more muscular on average than women's bodies.

and the women athletes are losing out to these male, biological males, simply because of regulations imposed by democratic government politicians. And then, Ellie Beth, I'm very concerned about the lawlessness and rioting that we're seeing in many of our cities, in Minneapolis, Portland and Seattle and Chicago and New York City, where Democratic politicians in charge of mayors and governors

in charge of the government will not let the police intervene but tell him to let the rioters burn and loot and destroy property and in some cases entry and death to human life results do we want that

is that the kind of nation we want well we're voting for a choice between two packages this November there's Joe Biden and Democratic policies and there's Ronald Donald Trump and Republican policies. And the packages are far, far apart from each other. Yes.

And there's no other choice. We either we're going to get Joe Biden and Democrats or we're going to get President Trump and Republicans. And I think Republican policies are much more faithful to scripture and much more faith to the good of the nation. Yes. Speaking of the riots that are happening across the country, there are some Democrats that are saying, you know, they're sporadic. They have nothing to do with democratic policies.

But I've said many times on this podcast that we are actually seeing the logical conclusion to the worldview of leftism, which divide people by race and socioeconomic class and thus fosters resentment in the same way that Marxism has always done that. And so this is simply the logical conclusion to a lot of these democratic policies and what they're doing, just like they always have, just like they did in the Cuban revolution, which you brought up just like they've done in every left-ween cultural revolution throughout the past 100 years, is that they're waging this revolution in the name of justice, in the name of compassion, in the name of equality. Well, justice and compassion certainly are things that the Bible talks about, but there seems. to be, there seems to be a disconnect there between some of the Christians that are saying, oh, these people are protesting in writing for justice and compassion and what the Bible actually calls justice and compassion. So can you talk about biblical justice? What is biblical justice? And when Micah 6.8 tells us to do justice, what does that mean? Does it mean the people that are out there writing in the name of racial justice or does the biblical definition of justice?

mean something different. I'll tell you, biblical justice does not mean stealing other people's property. The Eighth Commandment says you shall not steal. And there are laws in the Old Testament that give penalties for setting fire to your neighbor's property, your neighbor's standing grain, for instance. So people who commit arson and looting are violating biblical moral standards. Now, a liberal political mindset or a democratic political mindset tends to the view that these people aren't bad. They just have had a bad background that they needed to be listened to and understood.

But biblical justice holds people responsible for their wrongdoing and sets out punishment in the laws of Scripture. and it says in Ecclesiastes, when sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily, the heart of the sons of men is fully set to do evil. I think that's what we're seeing in the riots, not the peaceful protests and demonstrations. Those are perfectly fine and legal, but the riots and arson and looting that have joined up with these protests,

we're seeing sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily. And what happens? It doesn't calm down the violence. and looting and the arson, it exacerbates it, it fuels the fire. The heart of the sons of men is fully set to do evil. That says unless government carries out its function of protecting its citizens, violence is just going to increase. Lawlessness is going to increase.

I am concerned about an increase in lawlessness in society rather than the rule of law and order. The United States Constitution specifies, purposes for government in order to establish a more a more perfect union, to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility. That's one of the major purposes of the government that's set down in the first paragraph of the Constitution. But when riots are left to go unchecked and unpunished, the government is failing in its duty to ensure domestic tranquility. That is domestic peace, peace within our borders. The right for the common defense,

promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity. I'm calling upon Democratic governors and mayors to enforce biblical justice to protect property and protect people's well-being and lives. I saw last night, Alibeth, Senator Rand Paul, the United States Senator was attacked by a mob in Washington, D.C., and had to be, and his wife had to be rescued by police to protect them from severe physical harm. the crowd was, the mob was threatening them. This should not happen in our nation. I mean, I've walked in the area around the White House and felt perfectly safe,

but I don't know if I'd feel perfectly safe today with protesters mingled in with rioters who don't seek good for our nation but seek to disrupt and bring chaos and disorder and lack of safety to our streets. Then we turn into a police state with people having armed secure people who can afford it, having private security guards to drive them every place. I remember going to speak in Brazil in South Paulo. And even though my hotel was a mile from the university where I was lecturing, the host there told me it's not safe to walk on the streets.

And they had a van with a security guard, picked me up and drive me one mile, which I easily could have walked, because Alpalo is not a safe place to walk. I don't want the United States, the major cities of the United States, to turn into an area like that. But unless these rioters and lawless people, many of whom are just there to bring evil to the United States, unless they are arrested and brought to justice,

not arrested and released the next day because of weak-need district attorneys. But arrested and brought to justice, we're in for a very different kind of nation, and one we certainly are not going to enjoy living yet to the extent that we do today. Now, how do you think, how do you think that we got here? A lot of these rioters, a lot of them are on Twitter. You can look at their Twitter profiles. A lot of them say that they are communists, that they are openly Marxist, Leninist,

that they want to abolish the police. There was a person who spoke at the DNC who said that she wanted to not just abolish the police, but also. also abolished prison. So these are far left communistic ideas and just, what is it, 31 years after the Berlin Wall fell, we're back here. How did we get here? How did we get here to the point to where you've got a large swath of people in America who are revolutionizing in the name of communism in a way that is violent? Hey, this is Steve Deast. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just

political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. I don't know that it's a large swath right now. I think in many

cases these are paid violent agitators who are trying to stir up disruption. I wouldn't be surprised if many of them ultimately are paid by Russia or China or Iran or Cuba. And that can be determined by federal government investigation. You can find out who's paying the transportation bills, who's paying the hotel bills, who's paying for the weapons that they bring to these demonstrations. I've wondered the same thing. And I've wondered who is there a particular organization

or a person that tells these people, this is where we're meeting at this time, and this is what we are going to do? Well, that I don't know, but it's easy for the federal government to find it out, and it needs to be done quickly. I'm glad for Attorney General William Barr, who has launched this Operation Legend, which has arrested over 1,400, 1,500 people now already. And you notice, Allie Beth, when there were threats to tear down statues on federal property in Washington, D.C.

President Trump announced that they were going to start enforcing the law, which brought a $10,000 fine to anyone who damaged federal properties, such as federal statues. and all of a sudden the threats these statues stopped because $10,000 fine was a sufficient to turn and jail. So I think increased government enforcement of laws. But Alibeth, I'm also hoping that ordinary citizens of these major cities, Minneapolis, Chicago, New York, Seattle, Portland, Kenosha, Wisconsin. I grew up in Wisconsin. The voters in these cities will vote out these Democratic politicians. Yeah.

I've shown such weakness in the face of mob violence and vote in stronger law and order candidates, most of whom are going to be Republicans, some may be Democrats. Right. Right. I'm hopeful for that too. And there are some Democratic cities now in Atlanta, Detroit, Dallas. these are cities that are run by Democrats, but who have simply said, no, we're not going to tolerate this. We're going to support our police and we are going to, like you said, enforce the law.

So it is possible. It is possible for both parties to do that. It just takes saying no and saying we're not going to tolerate this, but so many city leaders have not. And 10, 15 years ago, everybody on both of the political parties would have said the same thing. Right. But we've got an atmosphere of tolerance of evil. A refusal to think that there are people who whose hearts are evil and are set to do harm. Yeah. And ultimately, from what the book of Romans says,

there is no fear of God before their eyes. Ultimately, people don't have a sense that they are going to be held accountable. The Apostle Paul in Acts 17, speaking to pagan Greek philosophers who had no knowledge of the God of the Bible, said the times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he is appointed of this is given testimony by raising him from the dead.

So God has fixed a day on which everyone will be held accountable before him a day of judgment. and when we have a society where there's no fear of God before their eyes, people have lost track of that awareness, but God has put a conscience in people's heart and an awareness that he exists and they have to realize that they will be held accountable for the wrong that they have done. Also, it's good for government officials to recognize, according to Romans 13, that God has enabled them to carry out God's vengeance on wrongdoers.

Romans 13 says, the civil authority is God's servant for your good. And he's the servant of God to execute his vengeance on the wrongdoer. So that means, I've said this to policemen often, you're serving God when you bring punishment against those who do evil. We're not to seek personal revenge according to Romans 12, but according to Romans 13, we should give it into the hands of the civil government to execute punishment of the wrongdoers.

And 1. Peter 2 also says the same thing. And we need government authorities in the state and local level, particularly, but also at the national level, to execute justice by punishing those who do evil and rewarding those who do good. Are you surprised at all at some of the evangelical leaders who seem to be, as a very least weak on this issue. And in my opinion,

some seem to be exchanging God's definition of biblical justice with a secular, more leftist definition of justice. Are you surprised or dismayed by that at all? Well, Alibeth, there is a long tradition of pacifism. It's a minority view within the Christian community. and the people, some of whom I know personally as friends,

but the people who have promoted this pacifist view in terms of international relationships and military defense, have also expanded that pacifist viewpoint to the local and state level where they don't think it is right to use force to overcome evil. And they have this slogan, and violence begets more violence. My response is that violence against wrongdoers

stops more violence. It prevents more violence. And they argue even that if Christians had just been acting more Christ-like, it would have stopped Hitler in Europe from taking over Europe. That's utter foolishness. Hitler could only be stopped by superior armies and navies and air force. forces in air power because he because there is in the world there are there are people who are committing irrational evil and it cannot be reasoned with it can only be stopped by superior

force and that's why we have police to stop evil with superior force and um these pacifists say well that's not the way of jesus jesus is the way of love and kindness and compassion But my response is that Jesus has, in terms of personal relationship, commanded us not to seek vengeance in Romans 12, but give place to the wrath of God. And then Romans 13 says, the civil government, as I mentioned, is God's agent representative to execute his wrath on the wrong to run, to be a terror to those who do evil. And so just to take a simple example, someone could say, well, we shouldn't have laws of against drunk driving, we should just love people and be an example of sober driving. My goodness, that's hopeless because there are people going to be drunk drivers. No matter how much love from Christians they experience, I think the approach is both to love

our neighbor as ourselves and to have laws against drunk driving and severe penalties for drunk driving so that people don't harm others. So it isn't enough to say we just have to act and love it. We have to take into account the Bible's provision of force or superior power for police to prevent violence, to prevent drunk driving, but also to prevent arson and looting and murder and mob rule. There are Christians who, though, were saying that, for example, you mentioned that superior violence sometimes is necessary. to stop wrongdoing. The rioters would argue that they are the ones that are using superior violence to stop wrongdoing.

And you have people. You're starting into some people's businesses? Right. Right. And I agree with you. And there are people who defend them saying that, well, if you care more about property than you do people's lives talking about the people who have died. at the hands of what they call police brutality,

then your priorities are out of place. Your priorities are wrong. They're even professing Christian leaders who I think are weak on this subject or who just say, I won't criticize the rioters because at least they're rioting for the right reasons. What do you say to that? Well, the civil justice system in the United States

is already taking care of rogue police officers. And the police officer whose knee was horribly on the neck of George Floyd in Minneapolis, for instance. He's being subject to investigation and ultimately criminal charges, and he will be punished appropriately. So the justice system is working to bring justice in the case of police officers who commit wrongdoing. So why do we need a riot in order to do that? But also, property, people work a lifetime to build a small dry cleaning business, a small grocery store, a small florist shop or bakery. and to have that looted and destroyed in an evening, is that not people's life?

It's not, it's what's important in their life. It's what they've taken months and years of hard work and sacrificial effort to build and to take that away is violating the command you shall not steal. And in some cases, is resulting in actually death of some of the property owners. They're trying to protect their property. the Republican Convention had last night sad testimony of the wife of a 44-year veteran, I believe, was sent to St. Louis police

who was attempting to defend his friend's pawn shop and was murdered in cold blood by these rioters. Now, that's the direction that things are heading unless government steps in and takes very clear action to stop this ongoing violence. Yes. do you have any encouragement and wisdom for the people who are listening to this who are just, they're just scared. They don't know what to do. They don't want the country to turn in to some of

these cities that we are seeing burned down. And they know that they are to trusting God and that God is completely sovereign. There's nothing that can thwart his will. They know that. But they're just scared. They're scared for their children. They're scared for their lives. They're scared for the future of the country, do you have encouragement and wisdom for those people? Well, I would start, Alibeth, by saying we pray and trust God and also act. So we pray according to the Lord's prayer, give us this day our daily bread, but we also go to work to earn a paycheck. We don't pray and say, God, give us this day our daily bread, and then sit at home waiting for some groceries to show up on our doorstep. So the principle, that's just

one illustration of a principle in the Bible that God wants us to pray and trust him for our future, but also act responsibly to bring about the good results that we seek from him. And so if people say, I'm afraid for the future of our country, but I'm trusting God that he will bring about the right result, and then they don't vote, they don't contribute to any political candidate, they don't talk to their friends about political issues. They don't do what they can do to influence our nation. I think they're being irresponsible. So my response is, yes, trust in God that he will bring about what's best for our nation.

But do what you can is you have opportunity, whether it's volunteer to knock on doors to phone calls, whether it's taking time to answer a political survey that's so irritating when we get these phone calls. But it influences public opinion and we take the time to answer. And certainly to vote, vote state, local, and national elections because they all influence the way the country, the direction the country takes. I can say, Alibeth also, that Romans 131 says that every person be subject to the governing authorities. There is no authority except from God and those that exist.

have been instituted by God. So that means that God gives us the government that we have and the leadership that we have in each case. Now, here's the question. Does God give this ruler to bring judgment on our nation or bring blessing to our nation? Sometimes he gives a ruler who will bring judgment as when King Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon

carried off the Jewish people into exile. And that was a ruler established by God to bring judgment on the people for their sins. But sometimes he brings a ruler who bring blessing to a people like Cyrus, King of Persian, who decreed that the Jewish people could go back to their homeland of Israel and Jerusalem and rebuild the nation. So now, as God put President Trump in office as blessing or as judgment to our nation, I think very clearly as blessing to our nation, lower taxes, greater economic prosperity, more numerous jobs, higher wages for minority and low-income people, judges that are faithful to the Constitution,

rebuilding our military, defeating ISIS that was causing such havoc in the Middle East and threatening the United States in our interest in many cases. Withdrawing from the Paris Climate Accord, which would have been economically disasters for our nation, actually building a border wall over 200 miles now and maybe 450 miles of border wall completed much more effective than the ineffective border wall that was in place prior to that. Again and again, these policies are bringing blessing to the nation. Sending negotiated new trade agreements with China and Mexico and Canada more favorable to the United States. I could go on and on. I've got on my website,

Wayne Grudum.com, a list of 25 or now 30 good things that President Trump has done for America. And people could look at Wayne Grudem.com and see that list or on townhall.com. Thank you so much. That's great. But I could say also another benefit, I think, is that a large number of evangelical Christians

in President Trump's administration at the highest level, at the cabinet level, Vice President Pence, of course, and Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, numerous other Christians who have positions of influence in government, which they've been marginalized in the Democratic administration and the Democratic Party because the parties have moved so far apart on policies that affect their accordance with or in contradiction. to biblical teachings. So I think there's a lot at stake in the future of the country. And I'm concerned, but I'm hopeful. I think that when I look over the list of what President Trump has done, I think there's no question that God has brought him as a leader to bring blessing to

our nation. In spite of his character flaws, the results of his presidency have been overwhelmingly good for the nation and blessing to the nation. And I'm hopeful that that. and blessing of God will continue for the next four years and more years after that. Right. Well, thank you so much. So people can go to wanegrudum.com to see a lot of your writings and your work.

Is there anywhere else that you would direct them? Usually townhall.com has been publishing the columns that I write and I expect to be writing some more. I'm thinking of one called permitting pastors to preach about politics. Right. Well, that's good because it tends to be the pastors that do are on the wrong side of a lot of the issues. So there definitely needs to be some biblical clarity out there. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for taking the time to talk to me. Thank you for the insight that you gave us today. I really appreciate you being here. I bet. It's been good to talk with you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Guys, I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Politics according to the Bible by Wayne Gruy. covers a lot of the subjects that we talked about today as well as his book Christian ethics covers a lot of what we discussed. Like I said, systematic theology. It's not about politics.

It's about the different viewpoints that are represented in the Bible and how people interpret the Bible and the proper way to interpret the Bible. So I will include the links to those resources in my description. Highly recommend you checking them out. They are just so helpful for those trying to shape their worldview. Thank you so much for listening or watching. If you're watching on YouTube, we will be back here on Monday. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country

aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the. answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want

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