Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 340 | The End of Gender? | Guest: Dr. Debra Soh

Episode Date: December 18, 2020

Today we welcome Dr. Debra Soh, renowned sex and gender researcher, to the program. Dr. Soh talks about how she came to change her opinion on transitioning young kids through her research and studies, but as leftist activism infiltrates the scientific community, this kind of honest research is often seen in negative light. Although the activists now taking over science may have good intentions, the myths they tell to kids about gender only serve to confuse them further. Dr. Soh also breaks down her professional opinion on the difference between sexual orientation and gender dysphoria. -- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey guys, welcome to Relatable Happy Friday. We have got a fascinating conversation for you today with Dr. Deborah So she wrote the book, The End of Gender. So she is on the left side of the political ideological aisle. She identifies as a feminist and she talks about how she has shifted in particular on the subject of children transitioning their gender. She is a scientist and through the scientific process, she came to a different conclusion than the one that she had before. And so she's going to give us all kinds of amazing

insight today. And I'm so excited for you to talk about that. After our conversation, I have a little bit of commentary. But for right now, without further ado, here is Dr. Deborah Sill. Dr. So thank you so much for joining me. I'm really excited to talk about your book, The End of Gender. We were saying before we started recording that my mom and I have both read this and it's just been fascinating. For those who might not be familiar, can you tell everyone who you are and what you do? Yeah, thank you so much. I have to say for having me. So I am a former academic sex researcher. I've since made the change to journalism. So as you mentioned, my first book, The End of Gender, has just come out with Simon & Schuster. And I had noticed during the last few years of my PhD,

when I was still in academia, that the climate was changing. I noticed that there were more and more things that legitimate experts didn't want to talk about, they didn't want to research, and there was one topic in particular pertaining to gender transitioning and very young children. So I wrote an op-ed speaking to the scientific research that shows that early transitioning is not actually the best way forward for these children, because the vast majority of them are more likely to grow up to be gay and adulthood and not be transgender. And by publishing that op-ed was essentially me self-exiling from academia. So it's been, I'm, you know, I've never looked back. I'm really happy that I made that decision as we see the things that have been happening more recently when anyone really tries

to question anything about transgender orthodoxy or anything pertaining to gender, they really pay a price for it. Now, why do you think that is that the attitude seems to have shifted from scientific research to almost what is kind of referred to as scientism, this idea that you start with a foregone conclusion and you only highlight the data that fits into the conclusion that you had already made. What do you think has caused that shift in academia and in science? Well, I think at the core, most people are empathic, they're compassionate and that's a good thing. But I really think it's gone way too far in the opposite direction because I do think people with gender dysphoria, trans people, anyone who is basically different, especially when it

come to their gender. They have faced discrimination, legitimate discrimination in the past, but now we've gone so far in the complete opposite direction that it really is, anything goes, and to challenge that is seen as hateful and bigoted. And I also think it's because the academy has been taken over by activists. So when you look at, say, within academia, even scientific disciplines now are being tainted by activism. You have professors who are in disciplines that know nothing about science, who are actually been given precedent, in principle, in terms of their opinions, in terms of their so-called papers, even though they aren't scientific. A lot of their papers are not based in anything factual or in any sort of reality, but they are

actually being given more weight than scientific research, legitimate scientific research. And then we see this also spreading into outside of the academy with regard to say media, with tech. It's everywhere. This ideology is everywhere. And I think most people are understandably afraid to push up against it, one, because it can cost them their career and also their personal reputations. I am not a scientist, but from my understanding, you start with a hypothesis and then you go into the research and you publish the conclusion based on the actual data, no matter whether or not, it matched with your hypothesis.

Obviously, as you've just explained, a lot of people are uncomfortable with that. And that's also what happened to you. You thought at one point that the correct path for children who struggled or had some kind of gender confusion or gender dysphoria was to transition. But as you researched, that conclusion didn't match your hypothesis. Is that correct? Yeah. I mean, as a scientist and a scientist by training, as you're saying, you form hypotheses. And wherever the data take you, that's where you land in terms of what your final conclusions are. That's how a good study is done. That's the only way you can get any sort of proper understanding or any sort of approximation of the truth. So myself, I used to think that early transitioning was the best way for kids with gender

dysphoria because to me it superficially made sense. If someone is struggling in their birth sex, they're uncomfortable in their bodies, why wouldn't you want to help those children feel more comfortable? But as I mentioned, all of the research literature shows that these kids are more likely to grow up to be gay. They're not going to be gender dysphoric. They're going to be perfectly content in their bodies past puberty. And so it doesn't make sense for them to transition prior to that point because there's a good chance that they're going to change their minds. And so for myself, as I read the research papers and I learned more about the issue, I realized, okay, I'll change my opinion because that's what a good scientist does. But as you're saying, now what we see is people

are basically reverse engineering science to fit whatever their particular goal is. And in this case, they generally are goals that have been determined by activist organizations. The activism is now spread into scientific organizations and medical organizations. So we see a completely anti-scientific approach when it comes to anything to do with gender identity. And people get really angry when someone like you or a journalist like Abigail Schreier brings up that, hey, there are consequences to this. And we're actually not basing these prescriptions for children on science, but rather on politics. Why do you think it is?

And maybe you've already answered it in your first answer about people who are, who have different manifestations of gender being discriminated. But why don't you think more people can just kind of agree, even if you think that people should transition as adults with gender dysphoria, why can't more people just agree, okay, maybe we should at least take a step back when it comes to kids? Why can't people agree that maybe there needs to be a few more obstacles put up before we, for example, prescribe, you know, gender, or hormone,

blocking hormone blockers to an 11-year-old. Right. And I'm in agreement. I do think that adults should be allowed to transition because research does show it can help them. And I think an adult has obviously the cognitive capacity to make that kind of a decision. But with the children, I think part of it is that activists who have transition.

Now, not all activists, because I have to say the most aggressive activists don't speak for the community. And actually I have a lot of trans people who reach out to me and thank me for what I'm saying because they're horrified at some of the things that activists claim the community wants when the community actually doesn't want those things. And many of them will say they are not in favor of young children transitioning. So I really want to make that clear because I think it's really unfortunate. I think a lot of the activists who claim to speak on behalf of the community, in many cases,

they aren't trans themselves or they really are doing a disservice to the people they claim to be supporting. In terms of why it's been so pushed with the children, I think, for some of these activists, they are projecting themselves on the kids. And they're saying because they transitioned later in life and they maybe would have benefited from transitioning earlier that any child who says they feel this way will similarly benefit from transitioning at an earlier age. And I think also because the information that the public is being shown is so biased that most people genuinely believe that these kids would benefit from it and that no matter what

the costs are in terms of the medicalization or the potential for regret, that it's better that they are put down this path because otherwise they will commit suicide. I mean, that's what they're being told, which is not true. It's not true. And I think also people, as I mentioned, are genuinely compassionate. So it's a combination of that. They don't want these children to be struggling or suffering. And then they also are afraid that they see what happens when someone like me speaks up about it and gets called transphobic, even though I know I'm not. I don't have any issue with trans people. My concern is just that the approach with these kids in particular is not based in science, and we are going to see, I don't doubt it in a couple of years, that there are going to be

huge waves of detransitioners, children who have transitioned who later changed their mind and regret it. Can you talk about some of the physical, psychological consequences that come with transitioning a child or starting the transition for a child who probably would have grown up or grown out of the gender dysphoria that their parents and maybe psychologists thought that they had as kids. Well, I would say the biggest thing is if there is any sort of psychiatric comorbidity, those issues are not being dealt with. So if someone has a mood disorder, if they have an eating disorder, if they have a personality

disorder, if they have sexual trauma, those things are not currently being discussed in therapy for the most part. Very, very few clinicians are willing to do any sort of therapy that is not facilitating transitioning, especially in kids, because they run the risk of losing their license, because so-called conversion therapy for gender identity is banned in 20 states here in Canada. It's about to be criminalized. So conversion therapy for sexual orientation and for gender identity are different things. And I always want to stress that I'm not in favor of conversion therapy for sexual orientation

because sexual orientation is immutable. It can't be changed. But gender identity is not the same as sexual orientation, and it can change in children, young children especially because they're developing, they're still trying to understand who they are. So in terms of the side effects, so if you take cross-sex hormones, you face potential infertility, say testosterone, as we see with the wave of people born female who are presenting with rapid onset, gender dysphoria, so they present with a sudden desire to transition to male or a third gender, often very quickly out of the blue with no previous history of gender dysphoria. If they take

testosterone, I mean, it permanently changes their voice. They will have facial hair. There will be changes to their sexual anatomy. And the public is being told that it is completely safe for, and harmless for a child to socially transition because that doesn't involve medical interventions. but that's not true because research does show that even a social transition is associated with going on to medical interventions and something like, say, puberty blockers is associated with going on to cross-sex hormones. So it's very difficult for a child who is receiving a lot of attention and praise and admiration from the adults in their life, from their peers, for them to suddenly turn around at some point and say, actually, I made a mistake. And I've been

asking everyone in my life to call me this new name and to refer to me by a different, the opposite sex or a different gender, I changed my mind and I want to go back to how I was being referred to before. It can be really shameful. And I think people really misunderstand how difficult it is for a child who has gone so far at each milestone to actually turn around and decide that they were wrong. Right. You mentioned that in your research, and I've heard you talk about this before, that you have found that sexual orientation is immutable. Do you also believe then that someone who, an adult, who identifies as a different gender, you also, it sounds like you believe that that is immutable as well because you support

transition for adults. So can you talk about what you found or what you believe, the biological difference is there between someone who says that they're homosexual versus someone who says that they are a different gender? Right. So there is a bit of overlap in terms of sexual orientation and gender identity when we look at, say, brain imaging studies. So in the book, I talk about the different subtypes for people who are trans and it

is divided based on sexual orientation. So say if we have a trans woman, so someone who's born male and identifies as female, her brain was likely shifted in the direction of female in terms of pre-nial hormone exposure. And so someone who is born male identifies as female and is attracted to men is considered from a sexological perspective to be gay, so attracted to the same sex. And so sexology is the scientific study of sex and gender.

So whether that individual chooses to identify as male and unlikely a gay male versus a trans woman who's attracted to men can be influenced by culture. I think it can also be influenced by the extent of that individual's biology. So in terms of the brain imaging research, it does show that sexual orientation is something that is hardwired in the brain, and there are differences between, say, gain straight men. But I'm not sure if that answers your question in terms of what the difference is. I think the biggest takeaway I have is there have been studies that have come out saying that gender dysphority,

is something hardwired also in the brain. But the issue is that those studies are conflated with sexual orientation because all of the people who are scanned, who have their brain scanned in those studies, also are sexually attracted to people who share their birth sex. So when you look at the results, it's not clear whether what you're seeing is the differences in their brain, you don't know if it's due to the fact that they are same sex,

or attracted to someone of the same sex and gay, or because they are gender dysphoric. And then I also talk about how trans women there is another subtype for whom their desire to transition is motivated by sexual arousal. But I always want to emphasize, I don't think that's a reason, again, for people to not transition. I don't think that should justify discrimination against trans people. I just think it's really important that we talk about this honestly because that is the only way we're going to actually help this population. If there are certain truths that are deemed hateful and that are supposed to be swept under the rug,

it's not going to help someone because if they transition and it's ultimately not what's right. for them again they're going to have regret and they're going to have to live with these potentially irreversible side effects so there are people i actually interviewed someone on my podcast who he transitioned as an adult um now and you know he obviously thought that that was right for him at the time he ended up i he ends up detransitioning and realizes that there were a lot of things in his life that led to that he had a grandmother that dressed him in dresses when he was a child and he believes that kind have led to him believing that he should be a woman and he transitioned. But obviously, he no longer identifies in that way and sees that a lot of it was trauma induced. And so obviously his story is

legitimate. And he helps a lot of people who have been in his same situation. There are also adults that say, you know, I thought that I was gay, that I identified as gay. I was in male and male relationships and then they no longer are. Do you believe that those people are lying? Do you think that's impossible? It's hard for me to say without actually speaking to someone who has had that experience. And I definitely don't want to sound like I'm casting judgment on anybody. I just, I always want to speak to the scientific research. And in terms of the work that my colleagues are doing, I mean, these are world experts on research pertaining to sexual orientation. And it is biological. So I would say for maybe someone who's not comfortable,

that. I mean, my take would be to grow comfortable with who you are, but if it's something that say someone, I mean, I've heard individual cases where say someone wants to have a traditional family, and so they struggle with the idea of being in a relationship or being with someone who is of the same sex as them. But, I mean, I guess I come from a different perspective in that way. I, myself, I grew up in the gay community. So I'm a big supporter of gay rights. And I just don't think me personally that there's anything wrong with being gay. So I would ask someone to to ask why they're uncomfortable with that. Yeah, I don't think I'm necessarily even talking about whether it's right or wrong, but I'm trying to, because I'm sure people are

wondering about that. Like, what really is the difference? Because it sounds like you prescribe kind of or you approach a child or a person who says that they're gay, you approach that differently than you would approach a minor saying that they are the different gender. And I understand why, because there are prescriptions and there are medical treatments that are associated with, you know, juvenile gender dysphoria that actually does have an effect on them for the rest of your life. But I'm trying to satiate some people's curiosity out there who might be wondering, hang on, like, what is the difference? Because like you said, a lot of people conflate sexual orientation with gender identity. I think that there's a lot of people outside of the

scientific community that probably do that too. And they might just be wrestling with knowing the difference and wrestling with knowing how do I view these things differently if we're okay with talking about transgenderism like this. Why aren't we okay with talking about sexual orientation like this? And so I was just trying to kind of get you to explain what you think the differences are to try to kind of clarify that for some people. I don't know if there's anything you want to add. If not, then that's fine too. I think that you did a good job of explaining that. I think the only thing I would add is for the kids especially because children with gender dysphoria and children who are gender non-conforming. So kids who behave more like the opposite sex than their birth sex.

So if you have a little boy who's very feminine, he prefers girls' toys like dolls, his friends are all girls. He wants to wear dresses and wear his hair long. That is that kind of behavior is associated with later growing up to be gay. So what happens is if you take a child like that and you actually transition them to the opposite sex, they will grow up to appear to be straight because if you have a little boy who grows up to you attracted to men, if he transitions to female, when she grows up, she's going to appear to be a straight woman. So I'm not sure if that helps to clarify. I understand the confusion there.

But I would, I just always go back to the research. And if sexual orientation is shown to be something that is hardwired in the brain and it can't be changed, I think the way we approach that and even in say children who are puberal and coming to realize whom they're attracted to in terms of the romantic partners, that is different from the fact that for gender identity, it can change in children. Okay. Okay. I'm sure that there's probably, I'd be interested to hear other perspectives on that since you do

support adults transitioning and you do think that there is some biological factor when it comes to adults transitioning, that they can't actually change that, the best route for them is transitioning. So it almost sounds like in some cases you do believe that your gender identity is biological and can actually be different than your physical anatomy, correct? I do because, again, it's associated with prenatal hormonal exposure. So in terms of how the brain develops, in the book I talk about some criticisms that, someone like me will face for being in support of adults transitioning and in their comparisons there to say eating disorders or being transracial. I don't think those are similar comparisons

because there are no, even if there are brain correlates associated with, say, eating disorders by encouraging someone to indulge in their eating disorder, that's quite harmful to them. Whereas research meta-analyses have shown that transitioning in adults can help them actually alleviate gender dysphoria, can help them alleviate other mental health issues they may be experiencing. So, you know, at the end of the research and what it's, what it goes. I think probably people making those comparisons, and I'm not a scientist. I'm just trying to think through that reasoning is that they're probably also looking at the physical consequences to even an adult transitioning that I know you write about in your book. there's the possibility of atrophy. Obviously, pumping your body with different hormones than the natural hormones that it's making has some, you know, it has some physical consequences. And so I think people are

probably thinking not just about the internal aspect of gender dysphoria, but also they're thinking, okay, well, eating disorders have physical consequences and transitioning, especially surgical transitioning, has physical consequences. And I think that there's probably some legitimate concern there from critics of your line of reasoning. Would you do you kind of agree with that or see that side of it? Oh, I definitely see it. And I definitely think a good mental health professional will do a rigorous assessment to determine whether transition is right for somebody. I definitely don't think it should be as it is now, which is basically taken at face value if someone wants to transition. I I think even in adults, that there should be, I don't think heavy gatekeeping is a good thing

because I do think people should be able to access the care and support that they deserve, but at the same time, you need to be asking the right questions because if it is due to something else, if there are other mental health conditions or if there is some sort of comorbidity, that needs to be looked at too. I don't think it should be just because you're an adult that 100% we're on board with this, but I just think that adults do obviously have greater emotional maturity. They understand the consequences of these interventions in a way that a child cannot understand them.

And so it's just that we can't have a conversation, regardless of which side you fall on. It's just this issue should not be so polarized. It should not be so political. Right, right. And that's what I was going to ask as well, because we talk about how there just aren't enough obstacles. I won't even say obstacles, but I guess that is what comes to mind, barriers or questions or people kind of pushing back on even children who are saying, you know, I kind of just decided

that I am a different gender. As Abigail Schreier talks about, there can be especially among young girls, a social contagion aspect for some teenage girls, at least, that feel like they're the different gender. They can walk into a Planned Parenthood in some states at the age of 15 and say, okay, I want testosterone. I want different hormones. And the state, I mean, they are required. Planned Parenthood is required to say, yes, and no one's questioning what else is going on. What's going on at home? What's going on at school? What are your friends doing? Like you said, what are the other psychological issues that might be going on? And I guess you just answered this,

but do you think that's a big problem among adults too? Because you do mention, which is obviously true, that the frontal lobe is developed for adults, that they're able to make decisions. for themselves and actually see consequences that young people aren't. But if there are other psychological issues there, that decision making could be inhibited in some way. It could also be affected by society or other external factors in some way. So do you think that scientists and doctors are doing a good enough job even with adults to say, hey, we need to explore all avenues before we make this permanent decision possibly about your life and your identity?

I definitely think that there needs to be more concern in terms of even with adults, in terms of doing, as I mentioned, the proper assessment and determining whether transition is actually right for them because I do think adults will be affected in terms of detransitioning and we'll see a huge spike in terms of the number of people who are experiencing this regret, as I said in a couple of years. So I have one of the people I talk to in the trans community who say transition over 10 years ago will say that it is completely different now.

And what they experienced and the hoops they had to jump through, although they were difficult at times, I think there still needs to be some level of that. And even just some basic questions in terms of why do you want to transition and why do you think this is going to help you or what does your gender mean to you? Things like that are completely taken off the table now. So this approach that is, I think, initially guided by people wanting to be more accepting, I think is really going to do a disservice. And I think there's going to be a backlash,

unfortunately, potentially to the community, because when all of these people, adults and children, start detransitioning in a few years, I think people are going to grow more skeptical of the community and say, well, this is what you were supposedly asking for and look at what the effects of that are. So I guess I would really ask your audience not to judge the average transgender person based on this extreme ideology and these extreme demands. most of them are not on board with that. Yeah. Well, I think it, you know, it scares a lot of people, not the people, but the ideology itself and seeing some of the aggressive people that have infiltrated, you know, even our political arena that are pushing, you know, particular bills.

I know there was one in Victoria, Australia, which basically, you know, you talked about the difference between any kind of abusive conversion therapy and actually just some kind of healthy psychological, you know, counseling for young people. And Victoria, this bill is being passed that says, you know, you can't do any of that. You can't even travel out of the province in order to get that. You can't pray out loud to your child. And I know that you and I don't agree on, you know, necessarily theological issues, but I think we'd probably agree. That's a free speech and First Amendment issue. That's a parental rights issue. And so I think that a lot of people are worried about that, not because.

They don't love transgender people or they think that they're not valuable, but because the face of the transgender movement is very aggressive and it feels predatory upon schools, upon churches, upon people's religious views, upon their children. And so you can kind of understand why unfortunately the people who are represented in this community and the actual movement itself and the politics and the aggression that they represent get conflated. and people on the outside of it are very protective and are very worried about it. Oh, I do totally get that. I mean, I'm a liberal, and I'm super concerned because I think this makes all liberals look bad and because very few liberals seem to be willing to challenge it.

I think there are going to be huge repercussions as a result of this. And it adds also further to the political divisiveness that we see more broadly. And I think that's, it's really not a good direction that we're headed in, whether you're looking at, say, gender or race or any of these points. So especially with education, I get the concern there because children don't know any better.

And if they're being taught ridiculous things like biological sex is a spectrum or that people can identify as a million different genders, I get why people are saying, well, we don't want anything to do with this. So I should mention in the book, I go through nine different myths and I use a scientific approach to debunking these myths. and explaining why they are not true. And so some of those myths, I mean, these are things that are being taught in children's curriculum, things like biological sex is a spectrum, that gender is a social construct, that gender neutral parenting works, that there are no sex differences in terms of dating and relationships when it comes to men and women. And I just think more broadly it's really harmful for society because we don't understand

each other properly. And it's really impeding our ability to have a proper understanding of really anything. I mean, when science is now being denied and being denigrated and these crazy ideas are instead being lifted up as though they are the truth, it's not going to be good for our society. And some, I would say, liberal ideas or leftist ideas are being challenged, I would say, by transgender ideology. You said that you grew up in the gay community and that's something that you're supportive of. But the logic of transgenderism, kind of challenging. that a little bit because if say, okay, trans men are men, that's something that we hear a lot

and that it doesn't matter whether it's whether someone has transitioned or not. It's really just something that you can declare that you identify as. And that's as far as the definition of male really goes. And so if you are a homosexual man who is attracted to men, you are then supposed to be according to transgender ideology. And again, this doesn't represent everyone in the transgender community, but what we're told from the activist is that you have to also be attracted to transgender men who are actually biological females. And so there's a lot of confusion and a lot of dissonance when it comes to, you know, different forms of sexuality. They don't seem to be congruence with with these transgender mantras that trans men are men

and trans women are women. It's very confusing, especially for just the average observer. don't you think? Absolutely. And I write in the book about how this leftist in fighting is probably pretty funny for people on the outside to watch because it's like everyone is eating their own. Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely, I would say that it's a little funny, but it's also a little sad. I know you and I are on totally different sides of the aisle, ideologically, politically, religiously, and that's why I'm so excited to have you on.

But yes, from our perspective, and, you know, particularly from a Christian perspective, I'm like, yeah, this is what happens. Things are confusing when you don't have any kind of, you know, what I believe. I know you disagree with this. Any kind of moral foundation for what is right and what is wrong and what is good as what is bad and what is bad. Yeah, things are going to get really confusing. When you don't have any kind of transcendent source of truth, it tells you what is and what isn't, it's up for grabs. Anyone can say what is and what is it. I mean, what is reality? What is absolute truth? What is morality? And so, yes, from my perspective, It does seem like everyone's just real confused and I'm just glad that I don't have to participate in it.

Well, I have to say I appreciate you having me on knowing that we have those differences and that you were willing to read my book knowing that there are probably a number of things that you disagree with in the book as well. But I think that's the way, you know, I also try to go outside of my comfort zone and seek information and resources that I may not agree with just to understand the other side. So yeah, definitely with say something like sexual orientation, if you have, we see how this is playing out in the lesbian community and I'm a straight woman, but from what I've seen, you will have because what used to be considered, so sexual orientation is supposed to be based on sex, but now it's being defined as gender. So someone who identifies as a woman should be viewed as a woman. I have no issue referring to trans women as women, but also with the. acknowledgement that there are some differences. And I have a chapter in the book that specifically talks about this with regard to being in the, say, in the bedroom of relationships with sport, with prisons, women's spaces, language, everything. And so with, say, lesbians who are attracted to women, you have some trans women, not all, but some who will say, well, because I identify as a woman, you should also be attracted to me. And lesbians are saying, but you are not the same as a woman

who was born a woman, especially if someone is preoperative. So there's definitely been some clashes in terms of the factions on the left. But again, let's say something like language as well. I mean, there's a lot of fighting right now with regard to some people who say that we should just use gender neutral language. And other people say, no, words that refer to women's bodies and reproductive capabilities, are important and it's basically the erasure of women to deny us that. Yeah. Do you agree with that? I'm, I'm curious. You know, I'm, I've got one child and I'm pregnant with my next and so I'm on, you know, I follow a lot of, uh, of the birth world. I listen to a lot of, you know, pregnancy birth podcasts

and I follow a lot of those Instagrams. And honestly, it, it makes me uncomfortable to see words like chest feeding or birthing persons or gender neutral terms because, and I have to like check myself. I'm like, why does that bother me so much? And it does feel like the eraser of women. And that's not to say that women's only value or uniqueness is being able to have kids. Obviously, there are, you know, equally feminine women who never have kids. But it is something that is very unique about women and has been for a long time, almost seen as some kind of exclusively feminine superpower. And now we're saying that there's nothing feminine about it at all. There's nothing female about it that has nothing to do with your anatomy. And there seems to just

be a loss of value there, especially from the very people who say that they are the champions for women. I don't know. There's definitely a double standard because you don't see the same thing happening when it comes to referring to male body parts or male reproductive function. There's no qualification, when say news headlines come out or when studies come out, they are not qualifying the word man or male. They're not saying, oh, this is what we mean. But if there's any reference to anything that has to pertain to being female or a woman, they will qualify and say, well, we're not, of course, say something like being a mother. The most recent example I saw was birthing person. Right. So they're saying that not everyone who gives birth is a woman and not all women give

birth. And I think, yes, okay, we can we can acknowledge that to some degree that there are exceptions in that way, but why is it that using the word mother is seen as hateful? I think that's one step too far. And I, again, I think it alienates people from wanting to be in favor or support of the trans community or what these activists are at the core requesting, which is hopefully just equal rights and not trying to, well, I mean, I don't think that's what the movement stands for anymore. But I have no issue with advocating for equal rights for trans people or people who are different. But I don't think the way to do that is to tell a particular group that who they are is hateful. Right. Yeah, you touched on something that I've thought about before. Why do you think it is

that there seems to be more sensitivity and more dogmatism surrounding female adjectives and female words and making sure that it's inclusive as men who identify as women, but we don't see that as much the other way, the other way around. Like, why is there such an emphasis on making sure that, you know, transgender women, biological males are able to enter women's spaces? I mean, we talk a lot about the locker rooms, the sports teams, the women's shelters, the prisons, and making sure that we, uh, we, are properly acknowledging their place in these female spaces, but we very rarely see it the other direction. Why do you think that is? I get asked that question a lot, and I always want to be really

careful the way I answer it. I would just say, I mean, the average trans men, you rarely see trans men screaming about any of these issues. They really just transition and they want to get on with their day. And I say power to them. I think if you, what can I really say? I think if you look at trans women and look at trans men and look at what is the defining difference there that will probably tell you why. Yeah. Yeah. And it's also interesting because we're talking about, as we're talking about all this,

we're talking about a very strict gender binary. Like we're talking about males transitioning to female and female transitioning to male. But the very same people who are using that language are at the same time saying there's, there's, you know, countless genders. There's a million different genders. gender is fluid. It's not a binary, but they kind of lie on themselves a little bit when they talk about transitioning and they talk about different spaces, having access to different spaces based on their identity as a male or a female. Is there any acknowledgement in the, you know,

front line to the trans activist community that there's some dissonance there in those two arguments? Yeah, because it's weird because being transgender used to refer to someone who identified as the opposite sex, which operates within sex and gender being binary as they are, which science isn't supportive. And now what you're seeing is this group of people who identify as a third gender or as non-binary or some other non-male and non-female gender, saying that they too are part of the trans community. And part of it is this larger widening of the transgender umbrella to encompass anyone who is gender non-conforming, anyone who's different in terms of their gender to include cross-dressers and cross-dressing is something completely different. So I think part of that is as a way to inflate numbers so that activists can say, well, look, if this percentage of the population identifies as transgender, this is further justification for greater acceptance. And I'm in favor of greater acceptance. I just don't think we need to inflate numbers to facilitate that. And so you will see people who are transgender who have transitioned to the opposite sex,

who've medically transitioned in many cases, will say we are not the same as people who are non-binary. I mean, for me to even say this, this is considered hateful and transphobic. And I just think that's ridiculous because science does not back up the idea that there are three genders or that there are more than two. And also with, say, non-binary, people who identify this way usually will only change their haircut and take on some new pronouns. They won't even medically transition. It's, to me, seems like more of a fad or something fashionable to do

to fit in with your progressive friends. And to me, that comes across is actually quite flippant to trans people who have transitioned to the opposite sex, because that is a big investment and a big, endeavor, not just financially, I would say emotionally and mentally as well. So there is some fighting going on there too. And there are all of these ideas that compete with one another. They don't make a lot of sense. So I think at the end of the day, people are hopefully going to, I think most people see it, but they're just afraid to call it out because they don't want to deal with the backlash that's going to come from doing so. Yeah. I think one of the other

competitive ideas is that it's not just that you, you know, are there two genders? Apparently there are because you're talking about transitioning just from one to the other or are there a million different genders. But it's also the idea that gender is a social construct. But at the same time, it seems to the people who are saying that gender is a social construct that it's, that it's very, that it's very real to them. If gender really was a social construct, then surely we wouldn't be having such adamant and such passionate conversations. And so while they're simultaneously saying gender isn't real, it is very real to the people who are talking about it or else we wouldn't have laws trying to say that you have to call people by the right pronoun or else you're going to be

fine for it, correct? It's, that's another very weird contradiction. You have people saying that gender is a social construct, but then there's also the idea that trans people have the wrong brain sex in their body. So if gender's a social construct, how is that possible? And if gender is a social construct, then why does someone who's trans need to undergo medical interventions in order to live as the opposite sex? Why would they not be able to just construct their way there socially? So in terms of the research literature that shows gender is not a social construct, that it is influenced by biology, it comes down to the prenatal environment. And as we touched on earlier with trans people who identify more as the opposite sex

similarly stems from that underlying cause. So I don't think we have to pretend that, I mean, I'm sure I don't need to argue with you about this necessarily, but I don't think we have to pretend that gender is a social construct in order to advocate for equal rights for women. And I don't think that acknowledging biologically based sex differences between men and women is inherently sexist. It's only sexist what people choose to do with that information.

if they choose to use that as a way to discriminate against women. And I would go so far as to say that you can't assert that gender is a social construct and fight for equal rights for women. I mean, from my understanding, there really is no basis for feminism. If feminism is a movement for the equality of women and recognizing the equal worth of women, which I have a lot of disagreements with feminist ideology in general. But if that is in its purest form, what is supposed to be, then there's really no basis for it if there's no definition of what a female is.

I also think that a contradiction is that we are simultaneously, we're simultaneously hearing that, I just lost, hang on, I just lost my train of thought. I've been trying to ask this question for like five minutes. And I, oh, okay, here's my mind. question. We're simultaneously hearing that, okay, so it's fine for a man to, you know, wear a dress and do whatever he wants to do and still be a man. But at the same time, we're seeing like when Ellen Page said that, you know, that they're now, that they're now Elliott Page. People started posting pictures of, from like 10 years ago wearing baggy clothes

and saying, see, this has been the thing all along. So I'm like, okay, so. If someone wears baggy clothes, that means they're a boy? I'm just confused. Are we reinforcing these very, very strict gender stereotypes that a little boy who wants to play with a Barbie when he's for is actually a girl? Or should we not be expanding those to say, okay, just because a girl wears baggy clothes, that doesn't make her a boy? Or just because a boy wants to do ballet or play with dolls, that doesn't make him a girl.

So there's also a contradiction there that I'm just not able to reconcile. To me it is quite regressive to say that, because I do see this happening more and more now, that if a child say wears sex, that the opposite sex tends to wear, that that is a sign that they actually are trans or that they are not really their sex. So if you have a little girl who wants to wear boys clothing, that she must really be a boy. That to me is really strange. And I don't see why a little girl can't wear boys clothes or vice versa. going back to your point about if gender is a social construct.

I mean, that was one of the biggest things that turned me off of feminism myself. I write in the book how I used to really be a hardcore feminist. And I just, as I learned more about the science and I realized that a lot of feminist ideas are not backed by science. It was off putting because what you see then is women will feel this pressure to be more like men, even if they aren't that way. I don't think there's anything wrong for women to be more masculine or more male typical. But what happens when you say that gender is a social construct is that masculinity remains the gold standard. And then femininity is seen as aberrations of that. So I don't see that is actually helpful or empowering of women because we're essentially telling women that in order to be treated equally or to be worthy of respect, you have to be more like men.

Right. So that seems like you said, very regressive. Do you think just as we close this out that there are more people because of people like you, because of detransing, of detransitioners that are kind of speaking up about their experiences of maybe feeling like they were either pressured or let too easily into transition when they were when they were young people like Abigail Schreier who are simply just telling stories without bias or without any kind of motivation that there are more people waking up to at the very least the danger that this is posing on children who really just aren't being cared for the way that they should.

should be cared for. Do you think that people are starting to realize that? I think so. I actually see it happening more so in the UK right now. And I'm hoping in North America that we'll catch up soon. Yeah. We just had this, um, the ruling that that was in favor actually of the young detransitioner. She sued the hospital who treated her. Right. And so she was born female, uh, began the process to transition to male. And then in her early 20s said, actually, no, I'm going to go back to living as female. And so now in the UK, they ruled that children under 16 cannot consent to puberty blockers. And if a child does want to go down this path, that has to be court approved first. So that's a landmark ruling. I really was very surprised. I'm very happy that they ruled in her

favor. I didn't think that was going to happen. So I do think it will eventually come over here and we will start to wake up more. But it's still very much glamorous. on this side of the pond. And I think once the lawsuits start happening, as you said, and more detransitioners start coming out, then people are not going to have a choice. They're not going to be able to turn a blind eye to it

or pretend as they are right now saying that these people don't exist or that they're so statistically rare that they don't matter. Yeah. I mean, it's the same people who say that they support kids transitioning or people transitioning

because they want people to identify as their authentic selves. they want them to be accepted. But the people who are detransitioning are also living as their authentic selves. They are telling their real stories and they are detransitioning and say, no, this is who I am. This is how I identify. And yet the very same people who are so empathetic towards people who transition, some of them are very cruel, outwardly, explicitly cruel and repressive towards people who detransition.

I guess it's because they feel that it delegitimizes the entire. idea of transgenderism. If someone can detransition, it kind of, they probably feel delegitimizes the idea that a trans man is just a man, just as much a man as a biological man. Well, that's obviously not true. If someone can detransition into their biological sex. So I don't know, maybe that's part of the anger behind it. But it does make me sad because I know that young woman in the UK that she's received a lot of persecution for her case and for speaking out. It is hypocritical because I don't understand why it is only one side has been being given the empathy and being listened to. And I do sense that that is part of the reluctance that say activist groups or people who otherwise would be very compassionate,

why they are so quick to dismiss detransitioners because they are afraid that they may be used as evidence as to why no one should be allowed to transition. And I just think if this movement wants to continue to gain support or to gain support from the average sane person, they would do them a lot of good to take into consideration. Why did these, for the most part, young women decide to transition so quickly, what went wrong there? Because that will help them better understand who will benefit from transition. But when you try to suppress the information, it doesn't look good. And it makes people wonder, well, what else are you hiding? Exactly.

Why do you need to pretend this doesn't exist if what you are saying was legitimate? And I think for some people also, maybe they are in a similar position because when I talk to the, when I interview the detransitioners for my book, they will say that the people who are the most cruel to them are the ones who themselves don't feel secure in their decision to transition. And so I think for them it may possibly be this nagging feeling that was this really the right choice for them. I think if you make a huge decision like that and you are secure in it and it was the right choice for you, you won't feel necessarily so threatened by people who are changing their minds. Yeah. You know, it really is a shame. And you're right.

It does for people who are on the outside looking in and who are still trying to understand this whole thing, which feels like it has happened so quickly, I think what feels like from, you know, like you have said, doesn't represent the entire transgender community, but the frontline activism that is so aggressive and in some ways so cruel and is using legislation to push this upon kids using sex ed to push this upon kids that's when people really start to get defensive like okay we can have a conversation about adults but you're coming after my kids at school there are laws that are now saying that if my kid says that they're a different gender at school that you don't have to tell me that my kid can now go to a plain parenthood and get and get hormones without my consent you're i mean

what you're doing is you're setting the entire thing up to be completely bulldozed by people who don't want you coming after their kids. And, man, it's just, I mean, it's just a mess. And I just really appreciate you making sense of it. I appreciate your honesty and saying you started out with one conclusion and the science led you to a different conclusion. And I know we probably disagree on a lot. But I really, really appreciate your work.

I love your book. And I just love your honesty. And how compassionate you are will not being afraid to speak truth in a time when it's really, really unpopular. Could you tell everyone where they can find you, where they can find the rest of your work and how they can buy your book? Yeah, so I'm on social media. I'm on Twitter at Dr. Deborah So I'm on Instagram at Dr. Deborah W. So I post all my work and my media appearances there. You can get the end of gender on. So there's hardcover, ebook and audiobook that is read by me. You can get it on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Indigo, pretty much.

Everywhere you buy books, Barnes & Noble, I think, is the one retailer that does have it in store. So I would say, please go buy from them to thank them for doing that. And thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. And I really appreciate this conversation. Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Thank you guys so much for listening to that conversation. She is an amazing follow, an amazing person to read as well. She's just got her life is very interesting, first of all. And her work has been very interesting as a sexologist. Obviously, she and I, we have different worldviews, and I would love to have her back on to talk a little bit more about the fundamentals of that. You guys know where I stand on a lot of this from a Christian biblical perspective. Go back and listen to an episode that I did a couple weeks ago called the biblical telos of gender, where we talk about what the Bible says about gender. I would read her book.

Absolutely. Go out and get her book. I would read it along with another book that I've promoted a lot, which is Love Thy Body by Nancy Piercy. I would love to have the two of them talk because I think they agree on so much and they also have different perspectives, obviously on religion. But I think also on psychology as well. So it'd be really interesting to hear that kind of academic discussion. So important that we talk about these issues with people who don't necessarily share all of our views. I think it sharpens us and it allows us to get a better understanding of what's going on and how other people see the issue. So I really hope that you enjoy that conversation. So for the next couple of weeks, just to let you guys know, because it's going to be Christmas next Friday and then it's going to be New Year's. I have already pre-recorded episodes for you guys and never leave y'all hanging without content. So I have interviews coming out next Monday and Wednesday and then the following Monday Wednesday and then the following Monday.

And then after that, after January 4th, we'll start those new episodes. And so you're really going to love the interviews that I've already pre-recorded. I've been like super anxious for them to come out because they're really fascinating conversations. And so I'm so excited for you to listen to them. So be on the lookout for those episodes next week and then the following week. And then the week of January, we will be back doing new shows with all the craziness that is sure to ensue in 2021. But since I won't get to talk to you like live or actively, Merry Christmas. And Happy New Year. I hope you have a wonderful time with your families. We have a lot to thank the Lord for this year as crazy as it's been. Maybe it's been the hardest year of your life. Maybe you have

lost loved ones. Maybe you've had loved ones in the hospital. Maybe you have been in isolation for a long time. Maybe you or your spouse or your parent lost their job. And this has this has been a tough year for you. Yes, there are millions and millions of people who feel the same way, unfortunately. And a lot of this unfortunately is self-imposed or is imposed by our government leaders and is not actually scientifically necessary. And that is probably one of the most tragic parts of this whole thing. But look, we have a God who took on flesh to become Emmanuel, to be our Messiah, to be our perfect sacrifice, to sacrifice himself for our sins. So we, an unholy people, all of us could be reconciled to a holy God could be forgiven forever, our slates wiped clean, to get a new identity,

to be righteous before God because of what Jesus did for us. And we get to spend forever with him because of that. And how much does he love us that he would send his own son to die, a death that he didn't have to die, to live a life that he didn't have to live, to be born in a station in life that he didn't have to be born into? How humble does Jesus have to be to take on flesh to condescend himself on our behalf, a rebellious people that didn't think that we needed to be saved, that didn't think that we needed to be pursued, who didn't know that we were lost, who didn't know that we were sinners in need of a savior, but God and his perfect, redemptive, gracious, loving plan, he did that for us. He did that for us. And that is what Christmas represents.

So if for nothing else, we still have a reason to rejoice this year. We still have a reason to rejoice. if only for the gospel, that's enough. Those are our riches forever and ever and ever. Yes and amen. Praise God for that. Merry Christmas. I will see you guys back here on an episode that I've already recorded on Monday.