Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 39 | When Your Favorite Christian Teachers Let You Down

Episode Date: September 20, 2018

Today, we'll talk about Matt Chandler's upcoming documentary with VICE and the growth of identity politics within the church.    Copyright CRTV. All rights reserved.

Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. It's me, Allie Stucky, your host. This is a podcast of CRTV. You should go to CRTV.com slash Allie and subscribe so that you can watch me while I'm speaking. My code is Alley 20, and I think that gets to you some kind of discount. I don't remember how much, but any discount is good, right? Okay. So it's been kind of a while since we have talked about something kind of exclusively Christian and biblical. because there's been so much going on in the news cycle that I want to make sure that y'all are in the know about. But today is the day. And it's actually going to be a little theological and a little political as well.

It's a problem specifically that I'm seeing within the church. And it started with a video that I saw for a particular pastor that I really like. This will have political languages in it because it's a political problem that I see within evangelical Christianity. And that is kind of the use of identity politics and this overtaking. of progressivism. As far as I can tell, the Bible doesn't really align with identity politics and a large portion of progressivism. That's why I think it's a problem. That's why I think it is worth talking about. It is counterproductive to the spreading of the message of Christ.

And really what kind of set me off to this whole thing is because I watched a video by Vice that is going to be shown on HBO about Matt Chandler, in which he talks about the problems within evangelicalism and who Christians are really called to be. And what I watched was just a preview on Facebook of the longer documentary. I haven't watched the whole thing yet, but I will. So know that the judgments that I am about to articulate are not on the documentary as a whole. I don't know everything Chandler says in the documentary. So I'm going to comment on what I heard, knowing that editing happened, knowing that maybe there was context.

but I'm going to comment on what I heard. And then I'm going to just kind of use that as a springboard into the conversation that I want to have about kind of leftism in the church. First, a little bit of background on Matt Chandler and why this video actually meant something to me personally. If you don't know, he is a pastor of the village church in a suburb of Dallas. The village is non-denominational slash Baptist. It's a part of the Southern Baptist Convention, even though there's not, you know, the word Baptist in its name. Chandler is in his early 40s. He's got a beautiful wife, who is also a singer sometimes leads worship. I think three or four kids. He's been preaching for about 20 years, so all of his

adult life. The Village Church has just boomed under his leadership and has expanded to multiple campuses across Dallas. He also beat brain cancer a few years back, which is pretty incredible. He's just a really cool guy. He's just cool. I've been listening to Matt Chandler's sermon since 2009. So a long time. Listen to him when I was in high school and then in college. It got tons of people hooked on his sermons, including my husband. He has been the go-to person for me when it comes to recommending to non-Christians and new Christians, a pastor that they should listen to. He just explains the Bible, in my opinion, so well and preaches the gospel so clearly. And plus, he's funny, he's smart, he's intellectual, but not in a stuffy way, still.

explained things really simply. And my own faith has grown a lot under his teaching. When my husband and I moved to the area at the beginning of 2017, this is where I grew up in the suburbs of Dallas, we didn't even question where we were going to go to church. We knew that we wanted to go to the village. We just loved Matt Chandler that much and had heard great things about the small groups at the village, all of that. So that's where we wanted to go. And we went as soon as we moved to Dallas, we wanted to get plugged in right away. We, of course, loved hearing that. It was like hearing a celebrity to us, even though I'd seen them preach before. But joining a small group at this church was next to impossible. You had all of these hoops that

you had to jump through in order to get involved. I won't go into all of the drama that happened surrounding this process. I know that we're not alone in this. A lot of people have had a hard time getting plugged in at this church. There was this whole lengthy process where you had to wait until a certain window of time, I think it was every three months. And then you had to go to a class and sit through this talk that talked about small groups. That's all, you know, that part is fine. And then you would say where you lived and then you would go stand in a line to see if there might be enough room in the small group that's close to your house so that you can join. So we did all that. We waited, I think, three months to try to join a small group. We didn't like that we had to

wait so long to get plugged in and actually have community. But we were like, you know, if that's what we have to do, that's what we'll do. We went to the class that you had to go to in order to join a small group and we were told that there still wasn't enough room that they were going to call us. We never got that phone call to join a small group. And so we then waited another few months in order for the window to open back up again. We wanted to go to this class to join the small group when we showed up. They said, oh, your name is not on the list. Okay. Now, in their defense, they did eventually plug us into a small group. This was several months after we actually started going to the church. But at that point, we were pretty discouraged and kind of done.

And I do also want to say that they did try to help us in some ways get involved in the church, and that just didn't work out. I just couldn't meet all of the obligations that it were required of me. I just literally don't have, didn't have any of the time for this particular role that I was looking at. So it's not their entire fault. Now, it's not just that that kind of turned me off to the village because I am under the impression, which I think is the right impression that the church does not exist to primarily serve you. That it's not just about what I want, what makes me feel good, and I was willing to kind of wait it out. And I'm sure there are plenty of things that we did wrong in the process too and trying to get involved in the village.

I am not saying that we have no responsibility whatsoever. But really the big reason, if you've been listening to Relatable for a while, you know that I have problems with the MLK conference that was held by the ERLC back in January. And Matt Chandler spoke at this conference. And the message that he conveyed there was very, very problematic. to me. And this was not just me, by the way. I wasn't the only person who had a problem with not just the MLK50 conference that

was held for evangelicals and evangelical leaders. But really, it was a lot of Christians, black, white, all different kind of backgrounds who listened to these talks and Matt Chandler specifically and said, I'm sorry, what? What? His talk, you can go listen to it online. in my opinion, and the opinion of a lot of people, was the most patronizing, condescending,

and unbiblical message on, quote, racial reconciliation that I have ever heard. And granted, I haven't heard that many, but this was really bad. He chastised his own church in his own community for really not understanding and not being empathetic to racial issues. He put the on, quote, white pulpits to say something. I'm not really sure what, but something.

He talked about how bad it is that his kid doesn't learn more about Africa and school and that that is apparently part of this big problem. And then the best part, he said that for church leadership when he's hiring, if he has an African American 7 and a white 8, I guess on a scale of 1 to 10, then he's going to pick the African American 7 because he's African American. Now, that might have been talking maybe about church planning in a minority area. maybe he's talking about that. I'm not sure I don't want to take it out of the context, but still, I have heard black Christians say that, no, that comment was completely out of line. You know why? Because it's belittling. The whole thing was self-righteous toward all of us who, to him, just don't get it. And not just white people who don't get it, but apparently black people too. He said, he said this, that if a black person agrees with a white person who doesn't support this new

racial reconciliation movement. It's because that black person just wants to be approved of by the white person. I'm sorry, what? Are you now the interpreter of all black thoughts? Really? Who are you? To make a judgment like that? So we left the church and like I said, it was kind of a long time coming. And look, I don't believe that in order for you to go to a church, you have to agree with the pastor on every single thing. As long as you can find support for what he says in God's word, or if he says something that's really just kind of a matter of opinion and not a matter of biblical and errant truth, then I think that's fine. We can disagree, and we probably could have stayed at the village and enjoyed many Sundays of good, solid biblical teaching from that. I don't judge anyone that goes

there. It's fine. I'm not calling Matt a false teacher. I still think that he's an excellent communicator and when he preaches the gospel, he preaches it in a way that seriously could bring you to tears. It's just that powerful. But I heard and felt him moving in the direction of elevating social justice and racial reconciliation to the place of the gospel. And I cannot get behind that. As I've said many times on this podcast before, Jesus did not come to reconcile the races to each other. He came to reconcile all races to God and uniting as the body of Christ in which there is no Jew nor Greek, nor slave, nor free is a natural and beautiful consequence of being reconciled to God in Christ. I agree with a lot of what Matt has said in the past, that racism,

white supremacy, racial bigotry in the gospel cannot coexist. That as Christians, we should condemn racism, both systemic racism and individual racism because they are sins. They are forms of hatred. And Jesus says that hating someone in your heart is the same thing as committing murder. Of course I agree with that. He had an excellent, I thought, now some people didn't like it, but I thought he had an excellent sermon on white supremacy after Charlottesville happened that I shared on my Facebook page. Some people, like I said, didn't like it. But I loved it. But condemning white supremacy and the sin of racism is not the same thing as saying I'll hire an African American 7 over a white 8 and calling on all white pulpits to do something.

Do what? Say what? What do white pulpits, white pastors, or any pastor? What do they need to say that Jesus hasn't already said? What message needs to be conveyed in addition to the one found in scripture? This is heartbreaking to me. I've actually cried about this. Believe it or not, maybe I'm being dramatic, but it's heartbreaking for me coming from the guy who has said for the past two decades that you can never graduate from the gospel. It's never. the gospel plus. It's never the gospel and. There's nothing to add to it and nothing should be taken away from it. But now we need to add this flavor of social justice to it? No. Preach the gospel. That is how you foster peace and reconciliation between men and women, black and white, rich and

poor. The gospel brings us together. The gospel makes us one. There is nothing white pastors need to do besides preach the gospel and live out the gospel indiscriminately and boldly. At the end of the MLK50 conference, they gave away scholarship money to only black students, apparently. I wasn't there. This is apparently what happened, which is getting dangerously close to reparations. Reparations being this concept that white people need to pay money to black people to make up for the injustice that we have perpetuated or caused them. there's nothing biblical or just about being forced to pay for the supposed sins of our ancestors. But that is the concept of social justice.

As I've said, many, many times, social justice is an actual justice. It is the elevation of a group that is seen as marginalized at the expense of another group that is seen as privileged. Now, who gets to decide who's really marginalized and who's really privileged? We don't know. People on the left. Now, he is doing a... documentary for Vice calling Trump immoral and Obama a great guy. Here's an excerpt from that preview. Can we agree that President Trump isn't of the utmost moral character? Absolutely. Like, are people

arguing other than that? So this is what I want to ask you. To me, evangelicals prioritize morality being Christ-like and yet they played a huge part in getting him elected. How did that happen? What did they like about it? I think people are frightened. I think they're frightened at the speed at which things are changing culturally. And so I think they begin to grasp for for something that might help. The Obama presidency, great men, some of his policies and some of the ways he rolled out his policies really, really scared evangelicals. And without any kind of real help, from pastors and ministers to help their people understand, the news media just whipped us into a frenzy.

The bathroom bill had passed, and I'm telling you, people were terrified by that bathroom bill. More than anything else, the thought that their children were going to be in a bathroom with the opposite sex, right? And I know all the arguments around that, but I'm using the language that I think would make sense to most conservatives. That made them go,

whoever the opposition is to that I'm voting for. And then they lost their soul in it, many of them did. Now, I haven't watched the whole thing. Like I said, I will and I will report back to you guys. And because I haven't watched the entire thing, because I know how editing works and maybe how Vice itself operates, I'm not going to spend a ton of time analyzing what he said because I don't have the full context.

But, but you can probably guess, yes, It really bothers me that he called Obama a great guy. Why did he make that comment? It kind of seemed like an offhand comment, but I mean, really? Okay, call Trump immoral. I think that's fine. I don't think any of us think that Trump is some upstanding moral guy. But calling Obama, pro-abortion racially divisive, horrific president, Obama, a great guy.

Is that really necessary? Does Obama stand for anything Christian stand for? or under his presidency, did we see the country become more progressive and more polarized than ever before? While conservatives stayed the same on nearly every issue, this is documented, the left went to the left, and when the left goes to the left, it is not in the direction of biblical truth. Just like, by the way, when the right goes too far to the right. Also, under Obama, the IRS targeted Christian and conservative groups, Obama stoked division, chaos, and racism at every term. And this is not a random assertion that I make. just because I'm a conservative. This is backed up by nonpartisan research at places like Pew.

But Obama, but Obama is a great guy. The guy who supported Planned Parenthood, the largest murder mill in the country, great guy. But Trump, he is totally immoral because apparently his sins are worse than Obama. Look, I don't think, I don't believe that you have to be a conservative or like Trump to be a Christian. In fact, if you are a Christian, they're a Christian. They're a plenty of things about Trump that should probably bother you. I mean, they bother me. I'm pretty darn critical of Trump, especially for someone who voted for him. But you're not going to hear me say that Obama was a good man just because I don't like everything that Trump does. And again, this was one small comment by Matt Chandler, but it tells me that either, A, he was playing to

the vice audience, that he was maybe even a little scared of the vice interviewer and what she would think of him, which is definitely how it comes off to me in the preview. Or B, he is legitimately listening to the narrative that Obama was a great, peaceful, awesome, godly president because he sounded better and didn't have sex with porn stars. But Trump is terrible because he's rude and probably did have sex with porn stars. Either way, that is troubling for a man, Matt Chandler, who has insisted on the perfection and the exclusivity of the gospel, as long as I've known. him, this addition that I think that he is adding to the gospel, that now we have to lean progressive and advocate for the things that a lot of the left advocates for. That's what it kind of seems

like in the rest of the preview. You can go to Facebook and watch it. Tell me if you think I'm wrong. Matt Chandler is someone also who is harsh with the truth. He's never been afraid to call out sin, to call out wrong, especially when it comes to abortion and to say what is true biblically. see him mimicking progressive narratives, at least in some ways, is really troubling to me. It feels like he is purposely trying to marginalize his conservative church members, which is sad. It feels, and I don't know for sure, it feels for multiple things that he has said, like he is part of the side who thinks that all white people who voted for Trump are racist bigots, whom he doesn't really want in his church anyway. Maybe I'm being overly sensitive here.

Maybe I am too political to judge this objectively. Maybe I'm judging too harshly. But to me, that is what happens when biblical truth is mixed with identity politics. You start believing that in order to be loving toward black people or immigrants, you have to become this SJW who hates Donald Trump and loves Obama. You have to buy into the leftist narrative that black people in this country are systemically oppressed on a daily basis, that illegal immigrants have every right to be here no matter what, that women need further representation in every sector of society in order to truly, finally, gain equality.

This is a dangerous road to go down, in my opinion. I just, I don't know if teachers like Chandler realize what they're getting into, that soon they're going to be asked that the church make reparations to black communities, that soon they'll be expected to support abolishing ice and opening the borders. That soon they will be marginalized if they don't allow women to preach from the pulpit on Sunday mornings. That they soon will be called greedy for not supporting socialism and expanded welfare programs. That they will be accused of homophobia for not condoning gay marriage.

That they will be seen as tools of the patriarchy unless they support abortion. I don't think people like Chandler connect their new social justice-flavored mess. to the rest of the progressive social justice cause. And they might say, well, no, we're just going off of what the Bible says. Well, no, you're already not. The Bible doesn't say you should hire someone less competent just because they're a minority. That's not what the Bible says. Not sure the Bible makes the case for calling a president who gladly presided over millions of

abortions, a great guy. And that goes for all pro-abortion presidents, by the way. So if you're willing to step outside of scriptural bounds when it comes to these things and instead hop on the Progressive Express, why wouldn't we expect you to do so when it comes to things like abortion and marriage and gender roles? I'm not sure if they realize just how relentless the progressive push is, that now that you're out in the open against Trump and against conservatives who you deem scared of cultural changes, which is very. demeaning and condescending, by the way, that you are going to be held to progressive standards. You are going to be expected to acquiesce to their demands. And maybe they won't. I hope they won't. Maybe people like Matt Chandler, Russell Moore and the ERLC won't go that way. Maybe they just see racial reconciliation and immigration differently than I do. And that's okay. I'm not saying that I

have it all figured out and there's no place in my heart and my mind in which I don't need to be sanctified. I'm not saying that. but that's typically not how progressivism works. It takes more and more. I will not be surprised if Christian socialism becomes mainstream. If mainstream evangelicals are advocating for open borders, if we get more and more quiet when asked about abortion and marriage and gender, it's already happening,

but you would like to think that people like Matt Chandler wouldn't give in to that. But we're already seeing that in Christianity. We're scared of being called bigots. We're scared of being persecuted. We want to join arms with. the social justice movement because it looks cool and sounds good. And I think we think that if we just give in a little bit, if we just give in on the racial reparation stuff, if we just give in on the anti-cop stuff, then that'll be enough for

progressive. They'll stop calling us bigots and they'll want to join our movement. No. No. No. That's not how progressive's work. Good luck with that. I hear a lot that social justice and intersectionality are actually biblical.

concepts that they're supported by Jesus. No, they're not. They're not. Intersectionality defined people by their oppression. They say, oh, you are a woman, you are black, you are Muslim, whatever it is, and that oppression defines you and it gives you credibility in certain conversations and it shapes how you should see the world and it also affects how you should vote. No, in Christ, you're a new creation. That's what you are. You're not defined by your oppression that is the language of law, not the language of gospel. And social justice, like I've said, arbitrarily helps one group at the expense of the other, which isn't real justice. And this idea of identity politics that your gender, socioeconomic, status, race, ethnicity,

should define your politics. That is not biblical. It is divisive. And that is what Obama, this great guy, perpetuated. And look, there are problems. on the right as well. I'm not denying that. There's a new study by the Cato Institute that shows the secularization of conservatism. More and more people on the right who are consider themselves Donald Trump conservatives and not traditional conservatives who typically traditional conservatives are typically conservative because we believe in Judeo-Christian values. We believe in the Judeo-Christian concept that all men and women are created equal and have the same dignity in God's sight. And therefore, we are given certain inalienable rights by our creator that shouldn't be taken away by the government.

I've said before, I don't think it makes sense to be a conservative without believing in God. Because you have to give some kind of answer for why you think people have rights that they inherently deserve to keep. If not given by a higher power, then why aren't they given or taken away by the government? So there are problems on the right as well. I'm not saying that you, like I said, that you have to be a conservative in order to be a Christian, and you certainly don't have to like Donald Trump, but to think that you're just going to be able to join arms with progressives on a few things and not be called a bigot for the other things you believe, like things on marriage and abortion, you're absolutely crazy. That is not how progressivism works. and I just worried that they are going to slip more and more down that slope.

They are going to start joining forces with these progressives who actually are not tolerant at all of any biblical views. So what's going to happen? Are people like Matt Chandler going to start growing silent on things that are controversial, on things that polarize people on the left? Or is he going to say, oh, wait, wait, this progressive movement, the social justice movement, is too unbiblical for me to be a part of, and I'm just going to stand up for what the gospel says.

I don't know. We'll see. Of course, if anyone had any knowledge whatsoever, they would realize that America has been used by God to alleviate suffering and to alleviate hunger and to alleviate poverty more than any other nation in all of existence. And the reason why we have is because of the liberty that has been preserved by conservatives and the Constitution that has been preserved,

preserved by conservatives and capitalism that has been preserved by conservatives. Like I said, you don't have to be a Republican in order to be a Christian, but you would realize that conservative values are what have perpetuated the things that have helped, not just our countrymen, but also the world be a better place, a place with less suffering, less hunger, and less poverty. Okay. A couple more things that have nothing to do with that. I wanted to point out a couple things that are stupid.

I guess this is kind of like a thing that I don't get segment a little bit. It's really just a thing that makes me angry. So Maduro, he is the leader of Venezuela. As you guys know, Venezuela is under a socialist rule. Socialists like to say it's not under a socialist rule. It is under a socialist rule. He came in, Maduro came in, promising all of these wonderful things. to Venezuelans raising the minimum salary by something like, I don't know, 3,000% or something

like that. Of course, that didn't work out very well. Now people are eating dogs on the street and using leaves for toilet paper. They have absolutely nothing. The pictures from Venezuela are haunting. They're terrible. People are starving. I was just reading a story about a woman who has lost 70 pounds in the past three years

that she's unable to feed her child. They have absolutely nothing. And what is Maduro doing? Well, there was just a video that was published by Salt Bay. You guys know Salt Bay, the guy who, where is he? I think he's in Istanbul, who has a steakhouse there, and he does the little salt thing. And there is a video of Maduro meeting this guy and being fed these very bougie steaks and this bogey steakhouse. taking pictures with Salt Bay, all the while his people are starving.

That is peak socialism. So when people tell you that socialism encourages equality, that it encourages equal ownership, just remember that picture of Maduro eating bougie steaks with Salt Bay and the people scrounging on the streets sifting through trash for something that can give them sustenance for the next two weeks. that is socialism. Socialism is not possible without a strong central government. And what happens when a strong central government has a lot of power? It's the same thing that's happened throughout history. Power corrupts. Absolutely power corrupts. Absolutely. That is what has happened in

Venezuela. Don't let anyone tell you differently. That is a perfect picture of socialism. So when someone like Alexandria, Castio-Cortez, or anyone else advocates for socialism, know that eventually that's the end of it. That's what it looks like. Um, okay. I got one question, but it was really a sarcastic question, but I'll answer it seriously on Twitter. So someone said, Allie, I love your podcast, but I stopped liking it when you said that you, that you don't believe that women should teach men the Bible. So maybe you need to stop doing your podcast because I'm a man. I listen to your podcast and you're teaching me the Bible.

You think that's unbiblical. So maybe you just need to put a little, a little PSA. say out there saying, if you're a man, don't listen to my podcast because I'm about to talk about the Bible. Oh, man. So first of all, I never said that women in any context whatsoever are not allowed to teach the Bible. I said in church. I said in the context of like from a pulpit or in a church context, not from media. I cannot help it who listens to my podcast. If a man listens to my podcast, I don't even know. I don't know if men listen to my podcast. I am not teaching you the word of God from a pulpit. And if you don't know the difference between a pulpit and a podcast,

then I really can't help you. Then you might want to listen to something a little more elementary anyway. Okay. Oh, one more thing that I wanted to say. I wanted to answer a question. So someone gave me a list of questions about like skin care and organization and how I spend my time and things like that. And I think that that is hilarious and so sweet. And social media must just be like I never try to put forth any kind of front on social media that is not real. I don't think that I try to give some kind of picture of my life that is ideal because it's not. And I don't think that I try to communicate that at all, but you know, you can only communicate so much. So maybe it looks like my life is all together. This person said, you seem to have it all together. You seem organized. What

kind of planner do you use? To which I laugh very hard because I am not organized. I've never been organized. There's a very good chance I have undiagnosed ADD. I lose things all of the time. I get a planner every year. Every year I set a resolution to be more organized and to plan my life better. I never ever do. sometimes I write in my planner if I'm feeling really organized on a Sunday night, but I don't look at it for the rest of the week. I literally keep all of the things that I have to do in my head. That is dangerous. And I can't tell you how many times I've run into things where I've double booked myself.

It happens all of the time. That is no way to live. I'm not an organized person. I don't have it together. Most of the time I'm running around like a chicken with my head cut off because I don't plan my time wisely. and that is not a good thing. So I don't have any advice for you whatsoever.

In fact, if you guys are listening and you have advice for me, if you can give me some kind of just quick tip for an unorganized person to be more organized, a person who procrastinates like me and actually works better when I wait into the last minute, then I would gladly take your advice. Feel free to email me, Allie, at the conservative millennial blog. Wow, I just totally butchered my own email address. Allie at the conservative millennial blog.com.

I don't know what happened there. I just had like a speech issue. Or you can message me on Instagram as many of you do on a daily basis. I always appreciate that. Please feel free to leave me a positive review on iTunes. It really helps and it means a lot to me. I read those, by the way. I try to read them every week and they just really make me happy.

So thank you for that. Feel free to recommend this podcast. If you like it to your friends, especially your liberal friends, and send me an email if you do have any criticism or feedback. or suggestions on what you would like me to talk about. Like I said, Allie, the conservative millennial blog.com.

Okay, have a great weekend.