Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 405 | Glorifying God Through Singleness & Dating | Guest: Jonathan Pokluda

Episode Date: April 19, 2021

Today we're talking to Pastor Jonathan Pokluda of Harris Creek Church in Waco, Texas. We'll be discussing the world of dating and relationships within Christianity. Jonathan has insight on whether Christians should use dating apps, as well as encouragement for those who may not know that God calls many people to remain single in their lives. --- Today's Sponsor: Freedom Project Academy has perfected live online training for more than a decade. Built on Judeo-Christian values & classical curriculum, Freedom Project Academy is dedicated to providing mastery of subject matter, not leftist propaganda. Find out more at FreedomForSchool.com. --- Show Link: Buy Jonathan Pokluda's new book: 'Outdated: Find Love That Lasts When Dating Has Changed' https://bit.ly/3v4naZ1 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. I am super pumped about today's interview with Jonathan Pekluda, JP. A lot of you guys probably know him because maybe you followed the porch. That was the ministry that he was the head of when he was a pastor out of Dallas. And now he pastors a church in Waco. And he's just an incredible pastor, an incredible communicator. He focuses especially on dating and relationships and and helps us navigate that or helps single people and dating people navigate that with the gospel. And so today that's exactly what we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about dating apps. We're going to talk about purity culture. We're going to talk about what the church in the world get right and wrong about dating and how you can do it in a way that is glorifying to God. And so I'm just super excited for you to hear from him.

He is an awesome person that has personally had a big. impact on on me. I attended the church that he was the singles pastor of several years ago when I was in college and he's just an amazing dynamic communicator of the gospel who got used in my own life to strengthen my own faith and my understanding and love for scripture. And so I'm just very excited if you don't know who he is to introduce you to him. So without further ado, here is JP. JP, thank you so much for joining us. Can you talk about tell everyone who may not know who you are and what you do? Yes, I'm Jonathan Picluda, JP, for short.

And I guess for 12 years, I worked at a church in Dallas called Watermark and led a ministry called The Porch to Young Adults. And so I had the privilege of watching that ministry grow from about 150 people to 4,000 there, but really 10,000 watching 20 campuses around the country and then another large online audience. And since I was just God showing off. And then two years ago, we left Dallas to pastor a church, a pastor a church here in Waco, Texas. And so a hundred and forty-five-year-old Baptist church that we've kind of taken the baton on

and continuing to build the kingdom and advance the gospel. You talk a lot and have talked a lot for as long as I followed you. I went to the porch in college, which was a long time ago now. And you have always talked very effectively. and I think uniquely about how the gospel informs our relationships, particularly singleness and how we should date with intention. And you just wrote a book about that called Outdated. Can you just talk a little bit about that, kind of why this is something that you're

passionate about and why you kind of have spent a lot of your ministry focusing on this subject? Yeah, I become a pastor, Allie, because I wanted to help people. And so when you have a front row seat to watch tens of thousands of young adults, predominantly single, make choices, and you see some of the choices that they make lead to death and some of the choices that they make lead to life. And then you begin to, as a pastor, as a Bible teacher, you're reading the scriptures and you're seeing, oh, wow, these texts that are thousands of years old speak into how we should find and build and commit to relationships in the 21st century.

and you start writing down patterns, ministry's pattern recognition. So you document those patterns, you see how the scriptures speak into those patterns, or at least forecast those patterns. And then as you sit down with people, you realize it's helpful. And so I don't care about writing books. I don't care much about doing podcasts except for how they help people. And so at the end of the day, if you cut me, what I bleed is I want to help people know Jesus. You know, kind of my life mission is I want to help everyone follow Jesus by engaging the lost,

equipping the saints, and empowering members for service. And what I've done, my history, my journey has given me a unique perspective and voice into the topic of singleness, dating, and relationships. And some of that's because of the way that I did it wrong. And so I became a Christian in my early 20s. And that's really after going to church my entire life, being exposed to different denominations, being involved with different denominations, but really surrendered my first. life to Jesus 18 years ago. And so that's that's kind of a part of how this book was born.

Yeah, I know your testimony. And I'm sure a lot of people listening or watching do too, but can you kind of just give a quick overview of how you came to Christ? Sure. Yeah, I was raised in a small town, South Texas, 6,000 people in the middle of nowhere. And I, you know, my dad was Catholic. My mom was Lutheran. They stayed married but went to separate churches every Sunday and I was Catholic because I would they made this deal if I was a girl I would be Lutheran if I was a boy I'd be Catholic so I went to Catholic school for nine years and really was had an identity crisis which is a lot of youth but for me like I was involved in agricultural programs and I had both my ears peers first tattoo at 14 did drugs sold drugs and drove in

1979 Mercedes-Benz with hydraulics that superfly on the back and you know wasn't great at school. And so went to this two-year technical college, studied art, got the most worthless degree that you can imagine. And I was at a club. I was kind of everything wrong with Dallas and a person. So it was pretentious. I wanted to be a millionaire before I was 30, was just driven in the world. And I was at a club 18 years ago, and someone invited me to church. And I went and I sat in the back row hung over, smelled like smoke from the night before. And I began to wrestle with this idea that I've always said that I believed in God. I always said that I knew Jesus, but I was just like, gosh, I've never made a real decision

based on this. Like, I've always done what I wanted to do. I bought what I wanted to buy. I dated who I wanted to date. I did what I wanted to do when we were on that date. And so my life was marked by a lot of sexual sin, addiction, pornography. And I realized, like, man, if I'm going to die and there's a heaven and there's a hell and, like, the way that you get to, I need to figure this out.

And I really started that journey with a bias. against Christianity. So I thought, what are the odds that be born to the right country with the right religion? So I looked at the Hindu faith, the Buddhist faith, the Jewish faith, the Islamic faith, Mormons, Jobus Witness, Church of Christian Science, Scientology. And I started this journey and I kept tripping over this man who reset the calendar, 2021 years ago, that somehow this baby born in Bethlehem, a town that I wouldn't know of, except he was born there, and lived in Nazareth as a carpenter, another city that I would not be aware of except he lived there. Like somehow he became the single most polarizing character in the history of history.

And I realize it's because he's the one that died and showed back up. And I'm like, man, if this guy can defeat death and then I need to really take an interest. And I realized that the reason that he died was to pay for my sins. And it was so that I could have a relationship with the Creator God. and I placed my faith in that and everything began to radically change in my life. What I did for fun changed, who I hung out with changed, where I went, how I was entertained, how I spent money, and ultimately what I did all changed. And tell me how that gospel affects how people date, because maybe people are listening,

they're like, I'm on board with you there. But really, what does that have to do with pornography? What does that have to do with where you went and what you did and how you dated? Isn't it really just about that God loves you? He wants you to do kind of what makes you happy? How does that revelation that you had about Christianity change all of the things that you just talked about? Yeah, that is definitely one of the lies that I take on in the book. And so what you see in the spirit of this air is to follow your heart. And so do whatever feels good.

That's actually a satanic message. And so the mantra, the Satanic Bible is due as thy will. And really, we don't understand as young adults, or many young adults are actually living. according to the Satanic Bible, not the Christian Bible. When we hear messages like follow our feeling, follow our arrow, do what feels right, follow your heart. And what I would say is it begins with Genesis 1 and 2, this idea that God created us. He's a creator. He created us with a purpose and he formed this union of marriage. Like it was his idea. He didn't have to do that. He made us male and female, we live in a very sexualized culture. And so I think at the end of the day,

a person who's seeking to date is really in the world, I'll say this, they're pursuing sexual pleasure. They're looking for a sexual outlet. Well, we need to understand that God made sex. It was his idea. He made the parts. He made them work with the way they do. He made them create life. You know, that was his genius invention. That was the father, son, and Holy Spirit coming together saying, hey, this is how this could work. It's going to be beautiful. And in his kindness, he made it feel good. He put pleasure to it so that we would want to procreate and bring forth children and so that a husband would be bonded to his wife. And I say all of that. It's a strange answer to your question, because to date for the purpose of marriage, So if marriage is the assignment and dating is how I find a partner in the assignment, then I have to understand the assignment, Allie. Right. Like in ninth grade anatomy class, I needed to choose a partner for a project,

and I desperately needed to make an A in this class. And so I chose, I'm going to call her Kelly, I changed her name. I chose Kelly because I was really attracted to her, and I wanted to spend time with her. and the assignment then was we were going to dissect a frog and Kelly didn't want to touch the frog and so this I chose very poorly because my partner didn't want anything to do with this assignment I didn't consider the assignment when I was looking for a partner and so if we're looking for a partner in marriage a partner in life we have to understand what the assignment is and and then once I understand the assignment then I can say all right how do I quickly and effectively

find a partner suitable for that assignment and that is the model. phenomenon of dating because dating is a modern phenomenon it's not in the bible much like the iphone's not in the bible much like the internet's not in the bible it was a it was a word that was born into the english language about a hundred and twenty years ago and so uh i think if we date however we want for fun it often leads to misery anxiety and broken hearts but if we date intentionally for marriage a path that leads to a promise then i think people who'd who do it that way are better off. They set themselves up for greater success.

So that kind of covers how the world often gets dating wrong. What do you think are some misconceptions or mistakes people inside the church make when it comes to dating or how we regard or talk about marriage? Yeah, first and foremost, I think we, and this is just where I would ask the forgiveness of your single audience. I think the church has missed it. And so as a pastor, a representative of a local church, I apologize on behalf of the Big C church, and just say, I believe that we have incorrectly elevated marriage above singleness. And, you know, you go to church, you're going to hear messages probably 10 to 1 or 7 to 1st on marriage versus singleness.

And singleness is a high calling in the scripture. In 1st Corinthians chapter 7 verse 7, Paul calls it a gift. He says, I wish you were as I am, which is sin. But really, he's plagiarizing the words of Jesus in Matthew chapter 19, where Jesus says, this is a lesser known verse, but Jesus says, there are some who are celibate for the sake of the kingdom. Not everyone can accept it, but those who can should. By the way, Jesus was also single.

He's the most complete human that has ever lived. He's not incomplete. So this Jerry McGuire theology is off that we need someone to complete us. We are a complete human being, not looking for a soulmate. But if we desire marriage, we're looking for a ministry partner. And so I think the church has said silly things, like, well, you just know when you know. And, you know, even it can be a little bit that environment where it puts pressure on people to find a spouse. It makes you feel lesser than if you don't have one.

You know, the divorce rate in the church is equally as high as it is outside the church. And so that makes me believe that universally we're not teaching correctly on divorce, marriage, and remarriage. There's a lot that I want to ask you within that answer, but something that you said immediately piqued my interest because it's something that I've said before and that I guess I believe, but I'm so interested to hear your take on it. When you know, you know. I mean, I think about my own experience. I, you know, dated a guy for a long time in college who was a believer and everything. on paper was great. And if we had ended up getting married, it would have been a God glorifying thing. But there was just something inside me and something inside both of us that just said, you know,

we've been dating for three years. We should be looking towards marriage. But there's something that just isn't right. Like, it's just not right. And then, of course, I met my husband. And it just was immediate. I just felt like I knew before we even really started dating that, okay, this is right. And so I guess I'm wondering your take on that. Like, what is that? Like, what is that feeling that sometimes you have, even when you're dating a believer who should be a suitable mate for you and who could be? But it's just like, you know, I just don't think this is right. Is there any credibility to that? You said there's something there with the first guy. You're talking about the one you didn't marry. What do you think that was, that thing that wasn't

there. What do you think? What would... Oh, I think it had to do with, I think it had to do with personalities. I think at the end of the day, like, we didn't totally click. Like, we didn't really make each other laugh. And we didn't, and that sounds superficial, but it was just that everything should be right and everything was right on paper, coming from believing families, both being believers, having generally the same interests. But at the end of the day, we just didn't have that thing of, yeah, I really want to spend the rest of my life with you. And that's what I felt with my husband. But I don't know, is that putting too much stock in feelings?

No, well, yeah. So it's going to be helpful to people, I believe. Because you asked me where the church misses it. And I'll say the church misses it in that we notoriously overstate things. And so when I say you shouldn't follow your feelings, your listeners might hear like, hey, your feelings are irrelevant. And that's not what I'm saying. Feelings have a place.

They're just not in the world, I think. The temptation is to put them as the primary, most important. That's what we need to consider before all things place. And that's not where they go. That's what we do with attraction as well. And so as you started that, Ali, saying, you know, I could have, we were both God-fearing people, Christian people. We could have gotten married and it could have worked.

And who knows, right? people change and this is a weird place to go. But maybe you would have married him and maybe he would have taken a comedy class, you know, at the age of 30. Just for the record, just for the record for my husband listening to this, for everyone listening to this, I'm really glad that I ended up with the person that I did. I am super glad as well. And so I'll personalize it for me, right? I could I have married somebody before I dated Monica and it had worked and people change. So like maybe they would have become this most perfect person for me.

Compatibility has a place, but it's not very, it's not nearly as important as complimenting one another. You know, strengths and weaknesses as your partner in ministry together. I think you, I think preference has a place. It's just not first place. So at the end of the day, when everything's there, I don't think you have to feel. pressure to say, gosh, I should marry this person because they check all the boxes. So we should go to the aisle. I think you're fine to say, you know what? There's something. There's a check in my

spirit. I don't know if it's the Holy Spirit. I don't know if it's in the category of preferences. Often we can't, we can't divide that in our hearts. We can't, you know, it doesn't make sense. But nobody needs to feel the pressure to be a martyr and say, hey, I'm just going to take one for the team and, you know, marry someone that I don't really love. Because we have to be able to cherish each other. And my point is in saying so much of what I say and outdated is there's going to be a time in everyone's life that you don't feel like cherishing your partner. You don't feel like loving them. You don't feel in love with them. And that's where that commitment has to carry us through those feelings. And as when we're dating someone, we do have a choice to make. Like it's

not marriage and a breakup is not divorce. And so we can sit there and say, do I want to do this? And that's not a sinful question, right? It's just, it's wrong. It can become wrong when our wants drive everything we do. When we follow our feelings and we follow our flesh and everything. Because what that does is it leads us in and out of relationships. And we look in the rearview mirror and we realized, you know, we've dated 12 different people. They've all been great people.

We're the common denominator. Why can't I make it work? You can get this weird headspace where I think, you can get in this weird headspace where I think, rather than, hey, you just know when you know, there's nothing in the world that we look for that way. Right? Like my wife, when she sends me to the grocery store for milk, she's real specific because she knows I'll just get the generic cheap stuff. And so she says, you know, I want you to get the organic 2% gallon blue label, blue cap, brand. Like she says the brand, she says, I want you to get this milk.

And she says that parenthetically next to milk. And then it's like this milk. And so I'm walking down the milk aisle. And when I see that milk, I don't like open the door and think, okay, how do I have, you know, do we have chemistry? Yeah. Which one? No, I say it's a celebration because it's like, oh, I found it. I found the one that matches the description, you know, and I think we need to think about marriage and dating more that way.

And you say, well, do feelings have a place? I would say, absolutely they do. just not first place. Right. And attraction, you know, what the scripture says is charm is deceitful and beauty is fleeting, but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised. And so we have to reprioritize, you know, our list, the things that we're looking for. And if we know what we're looking for, you can only find what you're looking for if you know what you're looking for.

Right. So you're saying that feelings have a place, but they can't be, they can't be the only thing and they can't be the first thing, because you could be looking for that milk and it could feel right, or maybe the milk looks really good and it looks like it's going to be greater. You just have a hand cream for whole milk. But if it doesn't fit the description, ultimately, it's not going to work because it's not going to be what you were supposed to get. And I remember there were times in college having conversations with my friends, either I was saying this or they were saying this talking about a particular, you know, guy that you were dating or seeing or whatever it was and saying,

you know, I know he's not a Christian or I know that we're doing the wrong things. I know we're going too far or I know I'm drinking too much, but I just don't feel convicted. So it must be fine. I think that is an example of how following our feelings and categorizing them as what the Holy Spirit condones or doesn't condone rather than going to the Word of God and rather than looking to the standards that he is set for us. That's an example of the consequences of doing that. And if you do that within dating and then potentially marry that person, the consequences

are going to be very long lasting, correct? 100%. I mean, in pastoral ministry, we see that all the time. Someone says, you know, I'm doing this. I'm like, hey, but it goes against the word of God. And they say, well, I don't feel convicted. I say, okay, well, that could mean a number of things. It could mean, one, you're not a believer.

You don't have the Holy Spirit. And so therefore, the Holy Spirit is not convicting you. I hope it doesn't mean that. So if it does, let me share the gospel. Two, it could mean you've seared your conscience or you've quenched the Holy Spirit. You're so given to this sin that you, you know, you're listening more to your feelings than you can hear the Holy Spirit. And then three, it can mean that you're just, it's kind of just another variation of two, that you're so deep in it. that you've given yourself to it, that you just have been lost in the emotion.

And I think as we talk about love, that's a big one. Because so often when our heart drifts towards somebody, all reason and logic goes out the window and we're ready to justify. And I mean, I have seen relationships. I have seen boy, meet girl, tear a family apart because mom and dad are jumping up, waving their arms saying, he's not good for you. Right. And she says, but I love him.

And then next thing you know, I mean, the whole family. is torn apart. I see it all the time. Right, right. Can you talk about purity culture? That is a contentious term nowadays. There's pushback against what has traditionally been known as purity culture, I would say, within the church, even outside of the church, as something that is hyper-legalistic, something that doesn't talk about sex in the right way. What would you say is the proper understanding of purity and then where you see Christians get the way? this wrong on one end of the spectrum or another? Yeah, I think, you know, we love to throw the word

culture after anything. And I think it can be, it can be sensational at that point. And then it opens it up for criticism. Someone told me the other day that I propagate rape culture because I preach purity. Right. And I'm just, yeah, and I'm like, wait, wait, hold on. Wait, what? Like, That feels like a, that's satanic. I'm going to go on record and say that is satanic. God created sex. He's the inventor of sex. Keep in mind for any critic of this that I am a guy who was completely lost in the world,

I have done this very much the wrong way. and I have found life in doing it God's way. And I'm not naive. I'm not under the influence of anything right now. I'm completely sober-minded and saying, hey, I have found life in pursuing Jesus Christ and trying to understand his desire for my life and really putting to death the desires of my flesh. That is to say, not doing everything that I want to do, but to ask God, what do you want for me and pursue that. And so it's just a theology. It's a worldview. It's a right understanding that we

have these bodies on loan. And in 1st Corinthians 6, he says, flee sexual immorality. All other sins, a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually sins against their own body, do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you've received from God, you are not your own, you've been bought by price, therefore honor God with your body. And so, you know, Monica and I, we have had this bounce house. Okay, so we bought the kids at bounce house. And it was more than we would normally spend on a gift for them. But we got it thinking, you know what, we're going to lend it freely to people. So when they have, when they have birthday parties and whatnot, we're going to let them

borrow the bounce house. But when they would borrow it, Borrow it, Ali, I'd give them some rules. I would just say, hey, please, you know, no more than four kids at a time. Please make sure you stake it in the ground. Please make sure you hook it up correctly. Because it's valuable. It's expensive. And I don't want you to ruin it. I want to be able to continue to lend it freely to other people. And the reason I told them how to handle our bounce house is because it's my bounce house, you know? And because it's mine, I get to determine how I want someone to treat it. And what God is saying in 1st Corinthians 6 is our body belongs to him. And he's giving us the rules. And I'm tired. Like the passion you hear in my voice,

as someone in pastoral ministry, like, I'm tired of people crying themselves, sleep. I'm tired of people being overwhelmed with anxiety. I'm tired of people fighting, you know, the church saying, we can do whatever we want and then finding them of now. I've been married six times and I don't understand what I'm doing wrong. And it's because you've been doing whatever you want. Instead of saying, all right, Lord, you invented sex. You and made the parts. You gave us the institution of marriage. You know, you've given us instruction, what do you want us to do? How can we honor you? And if honoring you means not doing every little pursuit of pleasure that I want in the moment, I'm willing to offer my body as a

living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to you, that's Romans 12, 1, and 2. And it's just, I'm just telling you, I'm a guy who has had a lot of fun in the world. And I'm telling you, I've found something better in Jesus, in the Bible, in God's instruction, and in what he desires for us, especially as it pertains to sexuality, dating and marriage. And that's the heart behind this book. And if it's anything, I just pray that it's helpful to those who read it. What do you say about this? This is a question I get a lot. And honestly, I got married before this was really popular. But what do you say to dating apps? Is that something that Christians should engage in? Is there a way to? to use them in a way that's glorifying to God,

or should they avoid them altogether? I think they're here to stay. And I think there's, you know, there's a good chance that, I'll just say, our children's friends will find their spouse through technology, right? I think that's a good possibility.

You know, objection, Your Honor, speculation. Absolutely, speculation. But I think they're here to stay. And so we have to put wisdom parameters around them like everything else. And so the Bible doesn't speak into dating apps. I'm a simple guy. I'm firm where the scripture's firm. I'm flexible where it's flexible.

And so I look at the verses and I say, all right, where does it, where does it, what does it speak into as it relates to this? And so here's some wisdom principles that are just practical. I think one, you have to understand profiles lie. And so I don't care if they know that Greek and Hebrew and they've memorized the new Testament and they're telling you all of these things like profiles lie and people will con you online and you almost you need to approach it with a healthy level of skepticism and I hate that because I want to be an optimist but when it comes to anything online you need to be in a healthy way skeptical. Two, and this is the one that most people lean in on and ask questions, is I would just

say to our friends, never date a stranger. And so you say, well, that kind of defeats the purpose of the dating app. I'm like, well, not all dating apps are created equal. I mean, some of them are blatant hookup apps. I would avoid those altogether. There are some Christian dating apps that will kind of show you your network. They'll show you friends you have in common. And so there, that's where I would call and say, all right, hey, is he a good guy? Like, do you know, like, what's his reputation? Is he involved in church? Is he serving somewhere? You know, is he handled authority well? And I would ask that, you know, long before I'm sitting at a dinner table with him. And so people ask me on Friday, I take, you know, questions.

And people ask me, well, hey, what question should I ask on a first date to find out if they're a believer? And I'm just like, no, you want to know if they're following Jesus before you're sitting at a table with them trying to find out if they would make a suitable spouse. Right. There's a lot of women that feel very hopeless. They've done the dating app thing or they're involved in church and they're, you know, they go to work and they feel like they're doing all the things that they can possibly do to meet someone. And they just feel like there are no good guys out there or they just feel like the dating field is empty and they feel like maybe in the church, like they're not finding the kind of fellowship, like platonic, even friendship being cultivated that they need to kind of. to be satisfied in their relational bucket and they just feel lonely, especially after this past year and they kind of feel desperate and destitute. What's the encouragement? What's the advice that you give

these people who want to be married? They want to have families. They just don't think it's in the cards for them anymore because they think that the playing field is empty. There are no more good fishes in the sea. Yeah. I think that it's a growing problem. as our culture becomes more and more secular, this issue will only get bigger. And so I start there because I think foundationally, as followers of Jesus, we have to live with a biblical worldview. We need to advance the gospel. We need to focus on building the kingdom and serving.

I said earlier, that singleness is a gift. And so regardless of whether you feel like it's a gift or not, if you're single, you have the gift today. And so use the gift to further the kingdom. That's Jesus's point in Matthew 19 and Paul's in 1st, 3rd,000. So I would start there. Secondly, I'm going to say two things that will potentially contradict each other. The first one is, I see every now and then girls get real angsty guys to angsty at the church, like the or the local body, like the specific church, because they're not doing their part to help them find a spouse. And so in that, I would say it's not the church's job to find you a spouse.

Like I understand that. And so like you want to put that angst in check. The contradiction to that is the church is the people. So not the 501c3, but the people. And I do think the people can help you find a spouse. And so as my friends would say, you know, it's like let your married friends know that you desire marriage if you do. And that's not an act of desperation.

Like that's beautiful. I see that in the scripture in Song of Solomon chapter 1, verse 4. It says their friends and family praise their love more than wine. That is to say, more than the party, more than the celebration, that people came together, looked at what they had and said, we agree. Like, this is of God. And so it would encourage Monica and I tremendously if somebody came to us and said, hey, I just want you to know I'm looking for a husband. You know, can you help me?

Do you have anybody in mind? And so that's fine. Like, you should do that. And that way, rely on the church, rely on the relationships that you have. And then don't lose, and this is the one that I know this is easier said than done, so I'm just going to say that up front. But don't lose hope in eternal life. Like the conversation that's never happened is no one's gotten to heaven and said, God, what was up, man? You kept me single down there.

What were you thinking? Like, what were you doing? Why did you, would you, you know, that's not the conversation you're going to have with God. He's going to say, hey, well done, good and faithful servant. He's going to say, hey, you're now married to the bridegroom of Jesus Christ forever and ever and ever, never, never. You get to experience pleasure forevermore in his kingdom and paradise. And so don't think that we have to experience everything there is to experience here.

Now, I know that for the young woman listening that feels called to be a mom that just really wants that companionship, that that's extremely difficult. And so I would say, you know, it's okay to desire marriage. That's not sin to desire marriage. But when you take that desire and you begin to feed it and obsess about it and you're driving down the road and you're feeding those thoughts and that desire grows to an obsession and you start to get angry at God because you feel like he's withholding good from you, that's when it can become sin.

And so you want to keep that in check. And then lastly, and you address this alley, but I think it's worth just kind of doubling down on is make sure you're hanging out in places where God-fearing single people are hanging out. And that's not a magic bullet, but it is a great step to take. That doesn't mean if you do that, that you're for sure going to find a husband or a wife, but it does help your odds a little bit, you know. And so let people know you're looking, hang out where single people who love Jesus are hanging out. Make sure you check your heart and that you're not growing angry at God because you feel like he's withholding

good from you, and then just get busy building the kingdom, you know, and sharing the gospel, don't waste your singleness. Definitely. I think that last part is so important that sometimes we regard singleness as kind of like this waiting room and our life isn't going to start until we get married and have kids. I totally understand that mentality. But I think Satan can kind of use that to keep you complacent, to keep you apathetic about, like you said, building the kingdom because you think that you can't be a real Christian

or you can't be complete, Jerry Maguire theology, until you actually get married. And that's not true. If, like you said, Jesus was the most complete, holiest, you know, man, God man, then it's just not true that you are incomplete or you are inadequate or you have to wait to glorify God until you find a spouse. God is calling you to do that and equipping you to do that right now, correct? That's right. Well, thank you so much.

Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. This is very edifying. Can you tell everyone again, name of your book, where they can get it, how they can follow you? Yeah, so the book is outdated. It's subtitled, Find Love That Last When Dating Has Changed. And you can find it everywhere books are sold, whether that's Amazon or you want to walk into a bookstore. It will be there. And my name is JP, and you can follow me at Jay Pekluta on Instagram, Jonathan Pekluta on Facebook.

But thanks so much, Ali Beth. I'm grateful for you and grateful for you. ministry. Thank you. Thank you so much.