Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 421 | When Culture's Confused, Christians Shouldn't Be | Guest: John Cooper

Episode Date: May 17, 2021

Today we're thrilled to welcome John Cooper, author, podcast host, and lead singer of Skillet, back to the show. John's book, "Awake and Alive to Truth," discusses how the idea of truth has changed over time and how that's affected the church. Philosophies like postmodernism and critical race theory, in direct constrast to Christianity, view truth as subjective. They are literally "self"-centered, suggesting that truth can be different to everyone. Furthermore, unlike other religions and secular philosophies, Christianity is the only thing that says we humans have inherent value. It's unfortunate that these ideas have infiltrated the church, but understaning them is an important part of being able to defeat them. --- Today's Sponsor: Annie's Kit Clubs: Annie's Creative Woman Club helps you experience crafts like painting, needlecraft, beading, candle and soap making, and a whole lot more! Go to AnniesKitClubs.com/ALLIE & save 50% on your first kit! --- Past Episode Mentioned: Ep 316: Resisting Woke-ism in the Church | Guest: John Cooper https://apple.co/3byMXkC --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Hope everyone is having a great day. Today, I am talking again to the lead singer of Skillet, John Cooper. He also is an author. He's a podcaster. I've had him on the show before. In the last episode that I had him on was super popular. You guys loved him. So today we're continuing that conversation, talking about some new stuff as well. And as much as you loved that first interview, you are going to love this one even more. And I'm so excited for you. you to listen to it. Without further ado, here is John Cooper. John, thank you so much for joining me again. It's so good to be here with you again. I love it. It's a good honor. It's the best thing of 2021 so far. Oh my gosh. Wow, that is an honor to hear you say that. Well, we are going to talk about,

we've talked about your book before it came out, but now that it's been out for a little while, I want to recap my audience on what the book is. I have it actually right in front of me. Why you wrote the book, kind of what the reception has been and how you think it speaks to the cultural moment that we're in right now. Well, that's so nice. Thank you. Yeah, the book is called Awaken Alive to Truth. You know this because you've written a book. It's funny when you get it and you start recognizing all the typos. I know. I know. I've been there. I know. But no one else does. I, you know, I've seen typos in my book and no one else has ever brought up a typo. And so just understand that, that it's just you.

Who notices it? Oh, maybe that's true. Maybe it's like when you play on stage, you know, and you know that you're hitting all those wrong notes and no one else does. We're still screaming, but, well, hopefully they're screaming if they ever go to concerts. Anyway, but the point is the book is Awaken Alive to Truth. I'm very passionate about this shift that has happened in the way, not just in America, but all over the world and the way that we view what truth even is.

And, you know, for a lot of older people, I would say people, Generation X or Boomers, it is taking a really long time for us to understand, I'm 45, to understand what in the world was going on, because we're not just arguing about what is true. We are arguing about, is there such a thing as absolute truth? And it's the way that that philosophy has entered into the church, which is what I'm most passionate about. I mean, I am passionate about it. for the implications to culture, but the way it is infected, the church has been so heartbreaking. So I wrote this book to explain a few of the philosophies, but also a path to eternal truth, a truth that never changes, that is fixed. And doesn't that sound good in a time of absolute volatility where we can't trust anything?

Nobody knows what to trust. You turn on the news and you're like, I don't know if I'm being fed a lie. Everybody has their own conspiracy theories. Everybody has their own tribe because no one trusts any of the institutions. Doesn't it sound good to have a truth that never changes? And I believe we have that in the Word of God, on the words of Jesus Christ and the Bible. So that's what this book is about.

I really hope it strength is people's faith. But I also hope it's evangelistic that people could read it and say, oh, my gosh, there really is a truth that never changes, that I could build my life upon and I could be unshakable. that sounds really wonderful and the truth of Christ is really wonderful. What do you say to people who say, okay, yeah, that that does sound all well and good, but I can't trust the Bible. It was just written by a bunch of men.

How do I know that Christianity is truth? Why can't I just live my truth? Why can't I just pick and choose from the different faiths and different worldviews what sound good to me and build my life based on that? Isn't that more liberating? Isn't that more freeing? isn't that more solid and trustworthy? What do you say to that person who has those questions?

I would probably just say, like, look at the world. I mean, how's that working out? Yeah, right. How's that going? Yeah, I mean, I understand. I'm not mocking people who believe that because that is sort of logical, right? I can't convince anybody that the Bible is real. And I don't even have the power to do that anyway, right?

that power belongs to God, of course. But the point is, is that I'm not mocking people for thinking that, but I am saying, hey, open up your eyes, take a look at the world. This is what happens when everybody believes they have their own truth. If you have your own truth, then that means you will have your own justice. It's only logical because you go, well, I don't care what somebody else says. I don't care what they think. This is what I know to be true.

And if I know it in my heart, then anything that I, I, I, do to make it so would therefore be moral. So I guess it's kind of wrapped up in this philosophy of postmodernism that is just so, oh, it's so divisive and it just breaks down. It breaks down. It etches down everything in culture that everyone, you know, agree, all the commonality. And we see that, of course, in the church, but we also see it in the world. So that is the reason that no one can decide is burning a building violence or not. Some people say yes. So, And people say no, what about when it's your building? And then they go, well, that's different because of fill in the blank. That's different because of racial justice or you just fill in the

blank with whatever it is that in your mind supersedes everyone else's version. And so if you have your own truth claim as an individual that is higher than everybody else's, then you'll have your own justice claim. And now we are in a world of chaos where everyone, just like the book of judges, just says everyone did what was seemed right in their hearts and that leads to chaos and we are seeing that in the church and that is what I am most devastated about. Yeah. You expect to see something like what you just described, that kind of relativism from the world because they're not starting on the foundation of the

word of God. They don't believe in the, you know, as C.S. Lewis talks about the great moral lawgiver that says what is and what isn't what's right and what's wrong, what's good and what's bad. they are starting from a place of, you know, kind of secular humanism that just says we're just these evolved kind of clumps of matter and therefore meaning and purpose and belonging and right and wrong are all determined by, you know, what we feel and maybe even what advances society. But what you are pointing out so well is that I think a lot of people who have that mentality of, well, my truth is good for me.

Your truth is good for you. And why do you care what I think? Just kind of let me be. They see their existence as just an individual inside their own little universe and their own little ecosphere. But the fact of the matter is is that we're interdependent. Like we live in societies. We live in communities.

And so whatever your truth is, that affects how you behave. And how you behave affects other people. It affects how you vote. It affects that what you think like about, you know, riots and chaos and policies and all of these things. that doesn't just affect you. That affects everyone. And so it actually is so important, as you are pointing out, for us to have a worldview

and to know where our worldview starts. And what you're arguing is that starting with the self and starting with our feelings is a shaky and an unstable foundation, correct? Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. And you wrote a lot of great stuff in your book about that, obviously. about the self. It becomes, it becomes the center, we become the center of everything.

But I think I might even rewind a little further, maybe a lot further, to also explain where this worldview, the idea that we matter, where does that even come from? Because a lot of us take for granted that we've grown up in America and the founding principles that we believe.

It's just kind of become part of the way that we think, that individuals actually matter. But if we rewind before Judaism, and you're looking at a world of polytheism, right? You're looking at a world where the world was full of chaos because all the gods were warring with each other. And if one God got mad at another God,

then there would be a drought. And as an individual, you didn't have inherent meaning. You were just there existing with the chaos of the gods. But in comes Yahweh, who says, is that you have inherent meaning because you're created in the image of the lawgiver, as you say, of this amazing creator God. Here comes Adaniah, right? All of a sudden, we each matter, and we each are, it's not a deistic God that just

created the world and left it alone. It is a God who is personal, and he created each one of us to be the way we are. He created me to have this big gorgeous beard, okay? He created, that was a joke, by the way. He created you to look the way that you do, that birthmark that you maybe don't like or you do like. God made you that way because each one of us is created with his hands. That's what the Psalm says, isn't it?

He knit us together in my mother's womb. This is an amazing personal God. And America has been built on this foundation that we, have inherent meaning. But if you take that inherent meaning out, then it's just a chaotic world again. And in some ways, I feel I don't mean that we're kind of devolving back into paganism. I don't really think that's really the right way to say it. But if you take that out of the worldview, then life really changes. And so, as you say, you can't convince somebody to believe this, but I would challenge them if you do think that you matter. If you do think that you have

inherent value, why would that be? I think that's a point worth asking. Yeah, exactly. And if if you don't believe that value is inherent, that it's given to us by a creator, by a designer, then who gets to say who's valuable and who's not? And this is just another example of our theological views affecting not just how we view the world, but how we interact with the world and how it affects other people. If you don't believe that we have inherent value that comes from God, then it becomes very easy to dehumanize a group of people such as unborn children. Historically, we've seen it through. We've seen it that kind of mentality placed upon a lot of people and it ends in suffering.

It ends in violence. It ends in oppression. So your theological views and where you understand truth comes from, where you understand your value and your worth comes from is not just about you and your truth. It's about what truth actually is universally. and that has an effect universally as well. You would think, as we said a couple minutes ago, that the church would understand this, because this is very foundational to Christianity.

You could even argue this is a Judeo-Christian belief, something that you would think that someone even before they become a Christian is kind of familiar with. And yet there are people who identify as born-again Christians who kind of take on this whole my truth, your truth, view of the world and of scripture. How did that happen? Yeah, you're absolutely right.

And I think you actually said it better than I did. It is Judeo-Christian values. And in America, we had been built upon that. And so a lot of people have that sort of understanding without knowing where it comes. In other words, we have the benefit of the country that we've been raised in in these values. But they are changing. And I do think that it is that deconstruction that is a part of postmodernism that has come in to all of culture.

And it is, it just breaks everything down because it's not, let's see, it's the way that postmodernism has been, uh, combined with critical theories. As it has come together and it's created this thing that, that basically doesn't look at reality the way that it is in order to understand

truth. Right. It looks at reality, which under postmodernism is not, uh, absolute. It is perceived reality. And it looks to say, how can we change this?

In other words, it's a perceived reality. Well, who is making me perceive that? It's the ruling hegemony. And so it is the ruling culture, if you will, which as we all know you've been talking about it for years, it's patriarchy. It's the white, heterosexual, cisgendered male Christian. That is the ruling hegemony under this thing. And the ruling hegemony is pressing their view of reality upon everyone. else. So the deconstruction starts that says, well, what you're telling me is actually true.

You just think it's true. You say the two plus two equals four only because that is the ruling culture. But two plus two actually can equal five. And you can't, you can't tell me that's better. In fact, if I've been oppressed, I have a higher understanding of what that truth is. Yeah. And so that's what this progressive Christian postmodern Christian movement is all asserting is that in their deconstruction, what they're trying, what they say they're trying to do is rather than view the world or rather than view scripture through the hegemony of the patriarchy, now they're trying to, they're trying to either view the scripture through the lens of what they would perceive as the oppressed or through their own view. And so that's why

people go through this deconstructionism of throwing off what they would say is actually a theology of oppression that they might have grown up learning about in the church. And now they're trying to understand what real Christianity looks like. The funny thing is in that deconstruction, what they reconstruct looks nothing like biblical Christianity. It's very convenient the parts that they end up throwing out. It's all the hard stuff. Like, it's all the stuff that is culturally impossible.

Like, okay, I'm going to deconstruct. I'll reconstruct without the whole marriage and gender definition, without the whole sanctity of human life definition. without the whole sin and repentance and holiness and even Jesus being the only way truth in the life thing. So what they reconstruct is not even close to biblical Christianity. It's closer to what you're talking about, this postmodern relativism. And it seems like there's not any freedom and joy found in that because it really comes without the gospel. It does.

I agree with you. In fact, I started recently, I stopped calling it progressive Christianity, and I started calling it just in my own little tiny world, postmodern Christianity. Because it's the exact same thing. And once you have broken all, they go, I'm breaking all of it down. I've been fed lies. They've been trying to brainwash me. And then they come up with something that they call Christianity, which is actually

not Christianity. It is actually idolatry. It's the same exact thing as in the Old Testament, as to say, we're worshiping God. We're worshipping Y'all ways. So let's build a calf of old, of gold. Let's build an idol. and we're going to worship this calf and call it worshipping Yahweh. That is actually idolatry.

So now postmodern Christianity just means that you ruling hegemony can't tell me what live where Jesus is. So all of a sudden, we've begun under postmodern Christianity, as I call it, to worship Jesus the way we want him to be, which in the end, what does that sound like? That just sounds like worshipping self. That means that I get to be my own God. and let's just be honest, if I could be my own God, well, that sounds kind of fun. In other words, people like the, they like the idea of having the feels, getting the

happiest about Jesus, but without the Lordship. And Christ calls us not just to be, he doesn't want to just be your Savior. He wants to be your Lord, all right? So if you can't call him Lord, then you actually are not worshiping the same Jesus. So it actually really matters. He is Savior, but he is Lord of all. And it's not just progressive or postmodern Christianity that kind of makes Jesus either just your pal or your genie or something like that. It's also a prosperity gospel Christianity, if you could even, you know, call that Christianity.

And I don't know if that necessarily splits along left and right lines. Maybe there are more prosperity gospel people who identify as, you know, on the political right, maybe there are more postmodern Christians. again, that's a paradox, but who identifies the political left. But the fact of the matter is that idolatry can show up anywhere on the ideological or political spectrum. Could you talk about also how this can manifest itself not just in postmodern progressive Christianity, but also in something like the prosperity gospel or other forms of so-called Christian idolatry?

I think that's a great point, Allie. I think we have to start with this. And since I listen to your podcast, I know you'll agree. We all are involved. I mean, Lord Jesus help us. We all are involved in idolatry in some kind of a way because we are so deeply flawed. We don't want to be. And I think that the point of every day of reading your Bible and asking God to show you,

to take you deeper into sanctification, what can I get rid of in my thought life or in my actions or the way that I view you, that is actually thinking wrong thoughts about God. So at its heart, idolatry is either adding stuff to God or subtracting things from God. It's having wrong thoughts about him. So I guess what I want to say is I want to make it really clear that if we have wrong thoughts about God, God is gracious to us, but we need to begin every day saying, Lord Jesus, what can I do as I read the scriptures? Will you show me who you are? so I can have right thinking, which will glorify you more.

That's a really important thing to do. But when we get into like deeper idolatry is when we are unwilling to bend our feelings to get in line with the gospel. That is when we read the Bible and you say, well, that's not really the Jesus I prefer. I don't really dig that. Well, now you're in a bad form of idolatry. And that comes like you said in all shapes and sizes. And in my view, I know a lot of great Christians who are very much healthy, wealthy, blessed, prosperity, gospel people.

And they really love Christ. One of the things I think that they get wrong, in my opinion, is that they do redefine. I don't think they know the redefining. Some of them, I think, do. But I do believe that some of them don't know they're redefining what it means to be blessed, okay? because you can go through trials, you can be in prison for your faith, you can be beaten for your faith, you can be hung upside down on the cross and be blessed and bring glory to God, right? That's what Jesus said about Peter.

Right now I can't remember what book of the Bible that's in, but he's basically telling Peter, this is how you're going to suffer for me and this is how you're going to bring glory to me. That is an amazing hope because our hope is in eternal life. Our hope is not in having stuff here on earth. And so I think it's an issue of the way that we view what we think we are owed. We are not owed anything, but yet we are given everything in Christ Jesus, right? Everything we need for righteous living and holy living and sanctification. We are not owed anything from God.

And God chooses to bless us in whatever way he sees fit and whatever he sees fit is going to be right and it's going to be for our good. I don't make me start preaching, Alec. No, I like it. Keep going. I'm just sitting here. I feel like I'm listening to a sermon. No, this is so edifying. I know it's exactly what people need to hear because like how you started this interview, there's so much chaos going on. And, you know, we're actually recording this. People know we're recording this in January. So we're trying not to say time sensitive things. But as we're recording this, you know, there's a lot of chaos going on with the transition between the presidents. There's so much political tension.

has been for a long time. There's been a lot that's gone on in the past year. There's been a lot of people who feel like, okay, the church in America is finally really on the brink of real persecution. Some people feel that way. And even if it depends on your eschatology, but even if you know that that's what's coming, there are people that are very fearful right now. There are people that are very afraid. And I think it's so important that you wrote this book when you did, because the one thing that is going to keep us sane, the one thing that's going to keep us grounded when it seems like everyone else is just tossed up in this hurricane of confusion and postmodernism is the word of God, is the transcendent eternal truth that God and His Word represents.

Can you give some encouragement to people that are like, they're just overwhelmed with everything that's going on? They want to do what you're talking about. They want to understand the truth. They don't know where to start. They don't know what to think. They don't know how to battle the anxiety that's in them. with everything that they're afraid is coming.

Oh, man, that is such a, I could talk for an hour about it. I'm sure you picked up on that. I'm a talker. Let me think, I think what I would start with would be this. Let's see, oh man, Alie, you're laying it on me here. Okay, I think that a good way to look at this would be to look at the Bible and see the amazing things that God did in the Old Testament. But a lot of theologians say it like this.

They say it way better than me. that the Bible is full of disruptions. It is full of God disrupting history in order to bring redemption. And we look at people that we love, like Joseph, right? Joseph is one of those amazing stories we always go back to and we go, God gave him all these promises that were so amazing. They were yes and amen. But Joseph really went through it.

How many of us want to go through what Joseph went through? I mean, so the Bible is full of disruptions. What we do know is this, that the victory belongs to God. Christ will be victorious, and that's what we can know. So I've been trying to encourage people. Sometimes for me, it's just, I like to get ready for the fight. Do you know what I mean? If I'm going to play a game of sports, let's say sports.

If I'm going to play a game of sports and it's a really serious game, I like to stretch really good before because you don't know what's, coming, right? If you know you're playing somebody that's slow and not any good, well, then maybe I don't take it seriously. If I know I got to have my A game on, I want to be ready for that fight. I want to encourage Christians in this. Christ will be victorious. He is probably going to do things that will disrupt your life, and it may be really difficult. It may be super difficult. It may be worse than you imagine. Nobody really knows. But if you get ready for the wave that is coming, You know, it's like when you're in the ocean.

You know, as long as I know the wave's coming, it's probably not going to knock me over. It's when I'm not paying attention. You know, you're a kid. You're waving to your parents. Hey, and that wave comes knocks you on your on your keister. And you're like, I didn't, wasn't ready for that. You got to get ready for what's coming. And if that means a little bit of suffering, well, that's okay.

It's not like God's not in control. And it's not like God doesn't play in the future, by the way. I know that's a theological discussion. but God has already planned it and it's going to be for our good because we will become more like Christ and we will bring more glory to His name. So Christians, don't be fearful, but don't be naive. Be ready to suffer for your faith. Yeah.

And that's why everything you're saying is so important. If we're in God's word, we can look at the history of God's people. And that's not to say America is modern day Israel. It's not to confuse the church with America. The church is universal, the Catholic Little Sea Church. That's the universal church. And this idea of religious liberty and free speech, which are such sacred freedoms that we both believe in fighting for and preserving, they have been the exception in world history and in the history of the church, not the rule.

And even though I think it's so important to vote for these things personally and to fight for these things, we can take solace and understanding that God's kingdom, that his gospel is not hindered by our political realities. Again, that doesn't mean that there's not going to be suffering. There's not a struggle that things won't happen, you know, like things won't happen that are against his moral will, but nothing can subvert his sovereign will. And his plan of redemption is going off without a hitch and looking to the Word of God and seeing how he has time and again when the odds seem to be act against him and his people that he always wins and that he always is the one to bring about victory. You mentioned the book of judges. I'm reading the book of judges right now. I just finished the

book of Joshua. Every victory that they had, God brings it about. And he is very clear about that. He said, you know, I pushed back your enemies. I gave them pestilence. I gave you a land that you didn't work for. I fought a battle that you didn't, in some cases, didn't even have to, you know, lift your sword for. And that's going to be the case for the church. Jesus said on this rock, I will build my church. And the gates of hell will not prevail against it. If the gates of hell are not going to prevail against the church, then you know that no political party can, then no earthly regime can. And I love what you said, that the victory is gods. And because the victory is gods, it's guaranteed. So we can have joy and we can have hope even in the midst of all of this

craziness. Well, I don't think anything else needs to be said about that. I 100% agree. That's, see, now I'm ready. I'm ready for whatever's coming. I know. Because I got my truth on right there. Good. That's what the word of God. That's what the word of God does, though. And we're so, I mean, how grateful can we be there at places in the world that, you know, they can't access. they can't access scripture or they can't access scripture safely. In China, for example, they tried to rewrite the Bible so it's more communist friendly, taking away anything about personal responsibility or anything that the CCP might not like. We're not there yet in America.

So while we can freely and safely, I mean, let's consume our Bibles. Like let's consume the truth as much as we can and hide his word in our heart. I think that your book is a perfect accompaniment to, that, obviously we never advocate for replacing the Bible with anything, but this is, I think, a really good starting place for a lot of people. But even if you have been a Christian for 25 years, this is a good reminder about where the church is, the challenges that either you or maybe your kids are facing right now, the questions that they're facing. Can you tell us more? Anything more about the book? Anything more that you really want people to know about this? And of course,

where they can get it and all that good stuff. Well, thank you so much. You know, I do think that this book is very much, it's really good for high school people. It's good for college people, or people who haven't necessarily studied theology, you know, people who haven't been sitting there and can explain the entire Roman road and things like that or whatever you want to call it, because it takes you through basic theology of original sin, why we shouldn't trust our feelings, what true love actually is. Love is not what, what, what, the world is telling us it is right now that, yes, we believe in a loving God, but he is also a God that loves holiness. Things like that. It explains why the world is kind of the way it is, the way

the world sees truth versus the way that the Bible explains what reality is. And it ends with sort of a presentation of this is what it means to follow Christ. This is what it means to build your life on His Word. So I think it's quite evangelistic, but I would say it's great. If you got a high school kid or a junior high school kid or a college kid or a friend that doesn't understand those things. So I think that that's, to me, that's pretty important because what I found out was that even a lot of, really a lot of, I would say, young Gen Xers and millennials, even that have been in church, I mean, don't really understand what the Bible says.

They might say their following Christ, but they don't understand their faith. This will explain it to you easily. Maybe you can't sit through John Calvin book. you can sit through my book. So you can go to my website, John L. Cooper.com slash awake. Yes. And I think it's so important to explain those foundational truths.

I think, you know, it's easy to take those things for granted and just assume that people who grow up in the church know what original sin is. But the fact of the matter is, I know there are people. I went to a Christian school, kindergarten through 12th grade,

very thankful for that, was raised in the church. I know some people who have that exact same background who could not, who could not tell you what the Bible says. I have friends who grew up in the Catholic Church who would say, we really didn't open a Bible very often. So just remember, especially those of you out there who do know the Word of God,

your friends who say that they're Christians, but maybe you're wondering, okay, their life isn't really aligned with that. Maybe God has you in their life to help guide them through just the basic principles of biblical Christianity, things that we can all be reminded of. even if we've been walking with Christ for 30 years, by the way, I love what a pastor said a few years ago. We never graduate from the gospel. We just move deeper into the gospel. And I think that's exactly what your book allows us to do for such a time as this and all of this chaos. Thank you so much. You also have a podcast. So tell people about that and, you know, Twitter, social media and all that good

stuff. Oh, sure. Yeah. The podcast is called Cooper Stuff Podcast. It looks like this right behind me. We talk about similar things, actually, as you do, Ellie. I'm not as you know a lot more about politics than me. I mainly talk about culture and where that interplay of faith and culture comes. And I just kind of basically theology for dumb people like me. That's not true. That's not. I just, I mean, everyone already knows.

They finish the interview. And so they know that that's not an accurate description. But you sell yourself short. but you are only really smart people can break down complicated topics in a way that makes sense to the average person. And that makes you especially smart because you do that really well. You don't make people feel stupid for maybe not knowing some complex theological and cultural things.

And, you know, that's why a lot of people don't listen to reformed Christians because they're intimidated or they feel like, you know, condescended. But you are so down to earth and so related. That's why I have you on the podcast. And so you're really, really good at explaining everything. So thank you so much. Thanks for your ministry and everything that you do. Well, thank you, Allie.

Likewise, it's such an honor to be on here. Thanks for doing it. And you know, I'm a fan. I listen almost literally to every episode. So keep up the good work. Thank you. Thank you so much.