Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 425 | How to Hold Fast to Christ Through Persecution | Guest: Pastor Andrew Brunson

Episode Date: May 24, 2021

Today, we talk to Andrew Brunson, who held on to his faith despite two years in a Turkish prison. Pastor Brunson has advice and encouragement for Christians who suffer persecution, and a warning for what he thinks is coming in our nation's future. --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. I am so excited for you to listen to this conversation that I am having with missionary Andrew Brunson. You might remember a couple years ago, he was released from prison in Turkey, where he and his wife had served as missionaries for several years. And he immediately went to the White House and talked to President Trump. Thank you President Trump for his efforts, for Congress's efforts, for American Christians' efforts and prayers in getting him. released from prison and brought back to the United States. He has a lot of encouragement for us. He's going to talk about his story, what it was like in prison, the lessons that he learned. And then what he thinks American Christians are facing as far as persecution goes. And he's going to give us a lot of practical advice and a lot of biblical wisdom that I think all of us need to take to heart. It's a very edifying episode. It's a very grounding episode. And I'm really excited for you to listen to it. So without further ado, here is Andrew Brunson. Andrew, thank you so much for joining me. I think most people know your story, but could you just

remind people who maybe don't know who you are and what you do? My wife and I were in Turkey for 25 years as missionaries, and it ended in an unexpected way. I spent the last two years of that in prison. And a lot of people prayed for me around the That's why some of your viewers will know who we are just because I became one of the most praying for people. Yeah. I was held for two years. I would summarize it as the first year was a year of breaking and the second year of God rebuilt me during prison. It was still very difficult, but there was a rebuilding process.

Yeah, can you talk about that a little bit more? Most of us in America, you know, we can't imagine that level of persecution what it would be like to be at a foreign jail for preaching the gospel. So can you talk about what that brokenness looked like in the first year and then how God rebuilt you? Yeah. So from reading biographies and just the general expectations I had, I expected that when I, well, first of all, I didn't think I'd go to prison. No one else had gone to prison in Turkey and living memory for their faith. So I was the first one. Wow.

We had counted other things as a cost, other pressures that we had. There were threats. There were, you know, there was some rest during our time there. But I hadn't thought of prison. So when I arrived there, I thought, well, I'm going to have a sense of strength and of grace. And I certainly had grace as I look back, but it was an unfilped grace for the most part. And what really surprised me was that I didn't have that sense of strength and especially of God's presence. And I remember one of the things I struggled with was I had come to know God is my loving, kind,

gentle father. And I thought, how can my kind, gentle, loving father allow me to be broken so thoroughly and not give me a sense of his presence? This is what really surprised me as those two years in prison were like a dark night, the silence of God, I could call it. Now, I see many good things that came out of it, but that's what surprised me. And that led to the isolation I was experiencing. I was the only Christian in the prisons. So I didn't have anybody from my own faith who could encourage me or pray with me or correct me when I had wrong thoughts. And just all of the pressures I was under the fear. I spent two years, but I didn't know it was going to be two years.

They wanted three live sentences for me. So that uncertainty, the fear, the isolation, the feeling abandoned by God, even though I wasn't, I felt that way. It was all I broke in every way I broke physically. I lost about 50 pounds in the first months. Wow. And I broke spiritually. And I was very offended at God, hurt. And this is even though I understood that persecution could come, that it was part of, I mean, many people in our family were the third generation who suffered persecution because my wife's family.

Hungarian, and they suffered under the communist government for being believers. But this is something that I hadn't expected it to be this hard. Yeah. It was more difficult than I thought. My story, though, isn't just one of broken. It's God did rebuild me. And the process of rebuilding was my, a turning point was my making a decision that I am going to, I'm going to turn my eyes toward God.

and not away from him. And even though the offense in my heart, the fear, all of those things, I am going to run after him and cling to him. And so I began a series of disciplines. And this was not from my emotions were in turmoil, so it was very much a decision of the will that I am going to follow. I am going to cling to him and be faithful to him no matter. And that began a rebuilding process.

And tell me what some of those disciplines were. Well, one of them was simply, I said, I want to be like the sunflower. The sunflower follows, you know, throughout the day from the rising of the sun until it sets. It just follows. And I said, God, I'm going to fix my eyes on you and just keep my eyes on you. And this is something I try to underline to people that it doesn't matter. how deep the hole you're in, how dark it is, or what pressure you're on, there's always a choice that we have. Even if it's restricted, there's always a choice that we make to turn toward or away from

God. And it's a one degree difference. So it's just that one degree, and you choose that you're one degree away or one degree toward him. And that choosing to turn toward him positions us so that we can receive from him. So I think that is something so important that as we prepare for hardships, having the determination to use of the rules and not base things on the moment to say, I will, I exert my will and I choose, I make a choice that I will turn to God. There were other things I did as well. I suppose a more unusual one was dancing. I decided that I would dance five minutes a day as a discipline before the Lord. And this came from a conviction that Jesus says in Matthew 5, he says, blessed are you when people persecute you, when you're

reviled, when people say all kinds of false things about you on economy, rejoice and be glad for great is your reward in heaven. And I realized I had not rejoiced at all. And this was a command from God that we rejoice when people persecute us. And I realized I had failed in this, and I had had no joy. So I decided to repent of this, and every day I would say, I am sorry that I confess I have not had joy. I repent. And now I will perform an act of joy. I don't feel joy, but I will perform an act of joy as obedience, just an obedience to you. And then I would, I would dance for those five minutes and force myself to rejoice. So that's an example of the disciplines.

It was really focusing myself throughout the day again and again on God. And at this point, when you kind of, you decided as an act of the will, like you said, since your emotions were in turmoil, to turn toward the Lord, to pursue the Lord, to continue to rejoice in the Lord and obey the Lord, you believed that you would be in prison for the rest of your life, correct? That was a, yes, I did. So I spent two years there, but I didn't know it would be two years. Right. The Turkish government had said that they wanted three live sentences

with no parole and solitary confinement. And this is one of the challenges that most people have when they go through hardship. They may not be in that kind of intense prison situation I was in, but many believers face hardship, and it's not knowing how or when in what way, even if that will be resolved. And the testing of the heart that I experienced, every believer is going to face the same testing. The tests may be different, but the area of the heart that's tested is the same. And those tests that I was going through were enough to knock me out of friendship with God.

And the test that you have and that every believer has, your tests are enough to knock you out. They may be different, but the heart is being tested in the same areas. So, for example, in that uncertainty, when we don't know how or if or when our difficulties going to end, we're tested in our response to God. am I going to love him, even if I am doubting his love, am I going to be faithful to him, even if I don't see his hand in my life, then I question his faithfulness. And am I going to continue to lean into him? One of the things that people have said sometimes, Andrew, your time in prison was just you

trusting God. And I say, you know, I don't know that I completely understand trust. I want to. It's so important. the words that I use instead are leaning into the leadership of Jesus. And because I can relate to that. I may not understand what he's doing, but I can lean into his leadership and say, you are a good leader.

I don't know what you're doing. I don't know where you're going to take me, but I want to go with you. I'm going to follow you. You are a good leader. And what a testament to His Grace. I mean, you talked about how in the first year, how difficult it was, how you just felt that you couldn't rejoice. But you even, I think you mentioned that you were knocked out of friendship with God,

but I think that we would both agree that he had you. He had you the whole time and the fact that you were able, through the power of the Holy Spirit, to turn towards him and to learn how to rejoice, that's not something that we can do in our flesh. That's something that can only be accomplished through the power of the Holy Spirit. So what a testament to the faithfulness of God, to the perseverance of God, to the perseverance of God, to the pursuit of God after our hearts, even when we feel alone and without his presence and destitute?

Yes. As I look back, I can say God was faithful. What I do want to underline just because I'm being very open about the struggles and the thoughts I had, is that what I was experiencing there, what I was thinking about was not God's faithfulness so much, because I wasn't feeling it. I wasn't seeing it. And so then what was underlined for me is my faithfulness. One of the things that... So I had a lot of questions and doubts and confusion,

and there were reasons for this. But I came to a point where I realized, even though I had many questions for God, he had questions for me. and I had doubted his faithfulness and his love, but then I realized that it was not God's faithfulness and love that were being put to the test. They remain constant. It was actually my faithfulness and my love that was being tested.

Would I come through? Would I continue to love God? And these are the questions he had for me. Andrew, when you feel unloved, are you still going to love me? Are you going to betray me even if you feel betrayed? Right. So or will you stand firm? And so, yes, God is faithful.

As I look back, I realize in my strongest strength, I'm still very weak. And so as much as I was determined, you know, that second year, I'm going to follow you. I'm going to cling to you. Then, but that is not enough. That is not enough. Clearly, God was carrying me through it. Yeah. By the way, I want to mention something because I'm underlining the will here.

And throughout my imprisonment, the real struggle that I had as far as what it was surrender. So I would, it was getting to the point where I would say, God, I don't want to be in prison. I cannot embrace my imprisonment. It's too difficult for me emotionally to do that. but I can't embrace serving your purposes. And if your purposes are best served by my being in prison, then I need to be willing to do this and with my will make that decision and commit myself to it. And this was the battle that I had.

During my first year, it was a year of brokenness. Every time I was broken, I would crawl back to that point of surrender. And it took me a while to get there. And when I'd get there, then I'd get knocked down again by something. even more difficult, things would get worse for me. And I'd just struggle back to that point of surrender. The difference in the second year was that I got back to that point much more quickly, and I began to focus every day on getting to that point. So it was a daily battle from I'd get up in the morning with fear and this desperation, discouragement, and I'd fight through to that point

to say, I am going to surrender to you. I'm going to embrace serving your purpose. even if it means staying in prison. And God, give me the strength then so that I can be faithful and persevere because I can't do this on my own. But I'm willing, with my will, to serve you and surrender to you. And then I'd get up the next morning with the same fear and discouragement and hopeless and start that battle over again. So there was, as I did that day after day, I want to underline this.

As I did this day after day, I was flexing the surrender muscle. flexing the perseverance muscle. And as I did that day after day, there was an upward trajectory, there was an accumulation, and it built a strength and a determination in me so that I came out much stronger from prison than I was when I went in.

And can you talk about the treatment that you endured while you were in prison in solitary confinement? So I was in solitary confinement early on in my imprisonment, and that was very difficult. It was just me in the bed, and I was really losing my mind. Of course. So actually what kept me from losing it all was planning my day and structuring it around different prayer. And that's what just provided some structure when there's no paper, no pen, no books,

no communication with anyone except guards. And so that was what kept me saying was just the structure. around prayer in a number of areas. When I went into, from there, I was put into a prison, high security prison, into a very crowded cell. It was built for eight people. There were over 20 of us in there, and all of my cellmates were very committed Muslims.

And even though it was very crowded, intensely crowded, and we never left the cell, we were in that cell 24-7, And so very crowded intense conditions, I still felt intensely lonely because I was alone in my faith. I was isolated in many ways, but especially by my faith. And I really saw how important it is to have the community of believers. And what an encouragement that is. Yeah, absolutely. Was it, were you well fed?

Was there torture? Was there abuse? Or was it really just the imprisonment in the isolation that was the worst of the punishment? Yeah, that was the worst. There was abuse and torture. I did not experience it. Some people that I was in cells with were exposed to that. But I was not.

For me, being completely isolated and living under. a sentence of death you could say in that, you know, three life sentences with no parole. It was just so heavy for me, the grief, the sense of loss of being separated from my wife where we have a very close relationship. And the idea that I would not be with my children again and just waste away. It was much more of an emotional and spiritual torture, I could say, than anything physical. So your wife and children were not imprisoned. It was just just you? Well, my wife got a taste of it because we were held together for two weeks at the very beginning. And so it wasn't quite what I went through later on when I was in the maximum

security prisons and all that because we were together those two weeks. But she did experience that. What happened, though, is that after she was released after the first two weeks, she remained in Turkey. She was the only person who was allowed to see me in prison. And even though there was a number of leaders suggested that she needed to return to the states, she remained there at some risk to herself because she loves me and she was ministering to me. Yes, wow. And tell me which years you were in prison? So I was arrested in October of 2016 and I was released two years later, just over two years later in October of 2018.

And can you tell me the process of you being released from prison, how you heard that news, how all of that came about? Well, I was put on trial as a spy and as a supporter of terrorism. And on my last trial day, the way that trials are set up in Turkey political trials like mine, You go to a first session that can take three to four months off until you have the second session, so it can go on for years and years. So I was in the fourth trial session, and they moved to convict me very quickly. And it was just a day in hell for me because they convicted me of supporting terror. And then they sentenced me to prison. This was after a lot of pressure from the U.S. government.

They imposed sanctions on Turkey. The Turkish economy had come to its knees because of this. So I was a very hated man in Turkey. Yeah, right. And so even after all this pressure and after millions and millions of people around the world had prayed for me for so long, I thought, here they've convicted me as a terrorist. And now they're sentencing me to prison. I'm going back to prison. And I don't know when I'll get out. And then the judge suddenly said, well, you are free to go now. And so they convicted me, sentenced me, and then they've released me while I appealed. And clearly this was a political decision.

Then they said, you can leave the country. And then the senior prosecutor for the area called me and said, when are you leaving? Please leave soon. So in a sense, they were glad to get rid of me at that point. But at the same time, there was a rush to get me to the airport because we didn't know if, you know, any, the president of Turkey, he's the one who was making the decisions about me. at any point he could change his mind and put me back into prison. So it was that rush to the airport. And it was a real Joseph type of experience because I went from, think of the roller coaster

of emotions. I'm convicted and sentenced. And then within a day, we are back in the States. I'm embracing my children. And we are at the White House. So just what a what a whiplash there. I can't imagine. And tell me what it was like to talk to,

President Trump and to all of a sudden be in this position. I mean, like you said, going from being in prison to being with the president of the United States, who when you were arrested, wasn't even quite the president of the United States yet. I mean, I just can't even imagine how much you were thrown for a loop. Tell me what that was like. Yeah, President Trump hadn't been elected yet when I was arrested. And I was very grateful. He did a lot for me. There was unprecedented government involvement, just the administration, but in Congress. And God was really moving this, and I was so grateful. One thing that I was very, it was ironic to me, I don't know what the right word is, but

I had watched in prison, there was a summit between President Trump and President Erdogan of Turkey. And in that summit, President Trump had requested my release. And I had seen it on the TV and the prison. President Trump is sitting there on these yellow chairs in the Oval Office with President Erdog sitting in one of those yellow chairs. And I knew that Erdogan three times rejected the request of President Trump to release me. And then he held me for another 17 months. And here I was at the end of this, and I was sitting in the same yellow chair in the Oval Office that Erdoin had sat in when he turned down President Trump's request to release me.

And I thought, this is just God. It's a, it's a God thing. Absolutely. And it's just a testament to how, you know, there's a lot of criticisms against President Trump, how the Lord uses whoever he wants to use to accomplish his purposes. And I'm so thankful for that. I'm thankful for the administration. I'm thankful for those in Congress. I'm thankful for the people who prayed for you. I'm thankful for whoever in Turkey had a hand in making sure that you were freed. And I'm so thankful for the people. now. Like you said, it's a Joseph moment. What God meant for evil, what Joseph's brothers meant for evil and selling him into slavery, God used it for good. And that's what he's doing now by sharing your

testimony. And I'm just very encouraged by that. You talked about recently how Americans need to be ready for persecution. A lot of people roll their eyes who when Christians in America talk about the threat of persecution or the fear of persecution. We're told that we have Christian privilege or whatever, that Christians aren't oppressed and we shouldn't be worried about persecution. But you seem to think differently. You seem to think that there will be persecution that Christians are facing it and will face in the future here. A lot of Christians do not think that the kind of persecution we've heard about from other countries can happen here. And that's just not the case.

I think that if we look at the times we're living in, if we discern the context that we're living in now, I think there's already some hostility toward people who are followers of Jesus, who accept the exclusive claims of Jesus, that he is the only way to salvation. And secondly, who accept his authority to make demands on the lives of his followers. and as presented in the Bible. So people who embrace that, that kind of follower of Jesus,

there's increasing hostility toward them. And we already see it in society. But in the past, we didn't experience persecution, as many others have, because there were many people, especially at the leadership levels in our country, who honored God. But if you look at our culture now, I think we can see there has been a sea change in the last generation even. And I would call it the commanding hikes of our culture, arts, media, entertainment, professional sports,

much of the corporate world, much of government, and academia. Many people in those commanding, influencing heights in our culture are increasingly hostile toward followers of Jesus, and they do not honor God. in fact, there's often a defiance of God. So our culture has changed tremendously. And I think that we're coming to a tipping point. And when you reach that tipping point and you start going downhill, things go much faster.

So I think that this is accelerating and we're soon going to see a lot more intense opposition to believers. And I think some of the forms that this will take. The first thing is that people need to prepare themselves to be really misunderstood because, you know, Jesus was called evil by many people, even though he was the most loving, kind, generous person in history, right? But he was condemned as evil. And this is what people will say about you.

They won't say, you know, we disagree with your view on this or we disagree with your theological, you know, stands. No, they're going to say, you are evil and you have a message of hate. And because of this, you are a threat to our society. People don't feel safe around you, your views, they're not inclusive enough, they're not loving. And because of that, they will de-platform and they will isolate and marginalize people. And so this is something that most people aren't aren't ready for is to be seen as hateful, and that's very difficult. Yeah. Definitely, definitely.

A lot of people for that reason, because they don't want to be seen as hateful, they are either quiet on the unpopular parts of Christianity that happen to intersect with, you know, social arguments or social debates that we're having about, you know, gender, marriage or abortion or things like that, they'll be quiet on those. They'll compromise on them altogether, not realizing that in doing so, they're basically saying, you know, I don't actually believe in God's authority over these issues in my life or just in the world. And so what is your encouragement to people who are tempted to compromise?

They're tempted to be quiet because they're scared of getting canceled. They're scared of being called a bigot. what do you say to those people who are facing those kinds of fears here? So first, I understand the fear because I had a lot of fear. And there are some real risks. If we are not prepared ahead of time, then when those pressures come, there's a real risk that we will run away. When you're afraid, it's natural to run from the thing that's making you fear and to compromise,

as you said. And so fear, another thing is compromise, or I would call it deception. And Jesus warns about this that many people will be deceived. And I think the form this will take in our country is that many Christians are going to become confused. There are many leaders even now in churches who are avoiding bringing up some of the subjects in the Bible that are hot subjects. you could see. And they're doing this because they don't want pressure from outside, which can be very real, but also because there will be division in the church. Because many believers have, we've been marinating in values in our culture that are not biblical, that are actually against many

of the teachings of Jesus. And so within the church even, if a teacher comes out and teaches some of the, what God says about gender issues or about marriage or sexual morality, any number of issues, there can be real pushback within the church even. So I think what's going to happen is that there is going to be an approved Christianity. Right. That's acceptable and that aligns more with progressive values. And non-believers, non-Christians will approve of this. this church, you could say, this version of Christianity. And they're going to be seen as very loving and inclusive. And they will be pitted against, contrasted with those who remain faithful to the exclusivity

of Jesus and the demands he makes for obedience to his followers. And they'll say, those people are people of hate. And so many Christians are going to be confused with this, who identify as Christians, but who really are not embracing the teaching. of the Bible. And those other ones are going to be portrayed as evil. So that can cause a lot of confusion. And this is how many people can be deceived. So how do I give an encouraging word about this? First, I point to the risk, but then I say we, Noreen and I, my wife Noreen and I would like to live a quiet and peaceful life. Now, we've come to the conclusion we won't be able to do that.

that because of the times we live in, I think there is a tidal wave of darkness that is about to break on our country. And I don't want to live in fear of that, but knowing what's coming or believing that these things are coming and that I cannot escape into just a life of a quiet and peaceful life. Then I have to take steps now to prepare myself

so that I am faithful and stand under pressure. Because if we don't do that, then when the pressure comes, we can run. And so we prepare ahead of time so that when we are afraid, we stand firm. And that is what's really on my heart now.

There's a sense of urgency that we're not prepared and we're not ready for us coming. And it is very important that we prepare ourselves so that we don't end up being deceived and we don't end up running away and we don't end up compromising. Right. Especially if we find ourselves in moments, seasons, years, maybe, like the one that you experienced

where you just, you felt hopeless and you felt abandoned by God. There may be a time coming where a lot of Christians feel that way, where we are wondering, hang on, where are you, God? are you still here? Do you still care about me? Or your promise is still true? And I think you're absolutely right that Christians have to decide right now while we still have the freedom to do so that we are going to hide God's word in our hearts. I imagine that's what you did to recall something like Matthew 5 and you probably didn't have access to a Bible, but also decide ahead of time that we are going to, by the power of the Holy Spirit, persevere, that we will count the cost

of following Christ and count the cost of discipleship and choose to follow him as an act of the will, like you said, when we're pressed up against the wall, either literally or proverbially. Because I don't think most Americans, I don't think we really have any idea of what it means to be truly persecuted in the way that you were for our faith, in the way that millions and millions of Christians have. over time. Do you agree? So you mentioned something that I think is key here, well, several things, but I won't remember them all. But one of them was this sense of offense toward God that many people

can have, especially, and Jesus warns about this. He says, the love of many will grow cold. And if you look at the context, it's specifically because of the degree of evil that is allowed, and because of the judgments that will come. And I believe our country is coming into a time of serious judgment. I don't think, see how we can avoid it because of the point we've come to as a culture. And so many Christians are going to be surprised that God will allow us as believers to go through such difficult times and that he will allow the degree of difficulty that we will experience. And one of the dangers is that during those, as you mentioned, sometimes we don't sense the presence of God or Muiisi.

Where is your hand? How could you allow this to happen? How could a loving God do this? And those are very big questions. And I had a lot of questions in prison. And what I had to do, all of my questions and doubts were suffocating my relationship with God. It was just strangling my friendship with him. And I had to make a decision to put those.

questions and accusations aside and deal with the offense in my heart. Where are you, God, in the midst of my difficulty? And this is one of the major challenges that we're going to face, not just in persecution, but in the difficulties we encounter in normal life. Most Christians go through a time of when they're, especially at a time of difficulty when they feel like God has left them in the dark. And this is one of the, this became my theme verse in prison, Isaiah 5010. And this verse goes something like this. For the one who walks in darkness and has no light, let him trust in the name of his God and lean on him. And so God could have said, wait, you're in darkness. Let me give you light. But he didn't. And he does eventually give light. But he left them in darkness for a time.

He said, when you're in darkness and you don't have light, then lean into me. And this is one of the things that I was learning again and again and again when I was confused, when I didn't see the hand of God, when I felt like I was in darkness, to just lean into him and to remain faithful to him. So there are some things that we need to do that we can do ahead of time to prepare. And one of them you're doing right now, which is we need to talk about it. It's very much on my heart to, how can I speak to leaders or to influencers? And in a sense, wake people up and say, look, if you don't talk to your people about this, then they're going to be blindsided.

And if they're blindsided, if they're not prepared, there's a much greater chance that many of them are going to fall off. They're going to experience a failure in their relationship with God. And so I emphasize some things. The number one thing is developing love for God. And this is what I think best prepared me to go through the difficulties in prison as for years I focused on pursuing God's heart. And this prepared me so that when I went into prison, God knew that I was going to break.

He knew I'd go right up to the point of failure and have a very, very difficult time. But he still let me go into that situation because he knew that because of his heart and that intimacy had built up, that in the darkest time, I would turn toward him and not away. So in a sense, he knew that he could trust me with that very difficult test. And this is so important. Jesus said the most important thing we can do is to love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. It's the most important thing we can do to prepare for difficult times because we're willing to suffer for the ones that we love. We see this in movies.

We see it in TV and literature that a father or a mother, they're willing to sacrifice themselves for their children or a husband or a wife. If I look at my wife's example, I mentioned, she was willing to place herself at risk and stay in Turkey because of her love for me. So if we love God, if we cultivate this love for God, then we are more willing to suffer for him and pay a price. And so it is love that ends up fueling that endurance and that perseverance. And it's very simple to do is just start saying, God, I don't love you the way I want to. Please help me love you more. Make me hungry for you. Make me thirsty for you.

So this is something that we need to do now, step by step. Another thing you mentioned about right perspective of fear of God. You know, Jesus said to his disciples, he says, do not fear those who can kill the body. Fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell. And he wasn't saying this with empty rhetoric. He was the people he said this to, most of them ended up giving their lives. They ended up being killed because they remained faithful to Jesus. And so they had to make that choice.

And I see now we have a choice. We will have choices before us. Who are we going to fear more? And I mean a healthy fear, a right perspective. Who are we going to fear more? Being canceled by people or being canceled by God. The consequences of obeying God, which can be persecution, or the consequences of not obeying God.

And if we can get a right perspective, of what really matters most. This is a very short life, and what we do here has a tremendous bearing on eternity for us. Yes, and amen. Then we can make the difficult choices. Yes, we talk a lot on this podcast. You know, there's a lot that goes on in the world

that can make us feel very overwhelmed, and the nature of the news and social media make us feel like we are omnipresent and we have to be omniscient, and just the weight of those Godlike or God's characteristics that we don't actually have, but feel like we have to carry can really weigh us down. And the question that I get a lot is, what do I do? What do I do in the midst of all of this?

And, you know, we talk about practical things to do, especially when it comes to politics and things like that. But we also emphasize the, at least to the world, the radical nature of daily and small obedience. I think seeing everything that we do, whether it's changing diapers with joy, doing dishes with joy, loving our husbands and serving our husbands well, serving our churches selflessly, loving our neighbors, sharing the gospel where we are, all of this I would also say, and correct me if I'm wrong, is preparation for oncoming opposition and potential persecution,

that if we can exercise, like you were saying earlier, that muscle of surrender today, when we don't face the same consequences that we may in a few years from now when we truly are persecuted, then that muscle can be built up. It can already be strong. If we're exercising that muscle of faithful obedience right now, when we're not facing the ramifications that we may be one day, then we can be better prepared and better set up for when trials come. I think a lot of people think that we can live life how we want to today. But when persecution comes, that's when we'll really stand up. That's when we'll really obey. That's when we won't be scared to talk about Christ or to share the gospel. But I mean, I think we're also, we're kidding ourselves to think that if we're not

willing to share the gospel today just because we're scared that it's awkward or someone might not like us, we're kidding ourselves to think that we will share the gospel when, you know, imprisonment is the consequence of doing so. I think you underline something very, very important there, which is building, you could say building perseverance now, building, you know, when I first went into prison, somebody sent a word to me and it said, all the times that Andrew, tell Andrew all the times that he has are for now. And what he was saying is every time that I was faithful in difficulties over our 25 years

in Turkey, and there were a number, every time there was something that was built, I was faithful with this difficult thing, I persevered. And that made me a little stronger so that the next difficulty, when I went through that, I was able to face it. And that one also stretched me to my limit, and it made me stronger. So there was an accumulation. and all of these over the years were intended to prepare me for the really intense tests that I had. So one of the things that we can do to prepare is to emphasize, to cultivate perseverance.

And the way that you do that is you have to do it. You have to be faithful now in difficulties. And you determine that I am going to be, well, that I'm going to be determined to be determined to be obedient. And as you do that now, there's an accumulation. There is a strength that is built up. Yeah, absolutely. I've never run a marathon. My husband ran a marathon, but I remember when I trained for a half marathon,

and I was not an athletic person. I was not someone who liked to exercise, but I decided that I was going to train for about a year. Starting out, I couldn't even run five minutes without stopping. And I started out doing that, and then I built up. by the time I got to race day, every mile that I got to, that was hard, I could tell myself, okay, I've done this before, I've run two miles, I've run five miles, I've run 10 miles before, and having, even when it was hard, and never having run that specific course before on race day,

knowing that I've already done incrementally, I've already run this far before, it helped me keep going. And in those last few miles, I'm like, okay, I've only got four miles left. I've run four miles before. I know that I can do that. If I had showed up on race day, never having run, never having trained, there would be no way I would be able to finish. And obviously, that's not a perfect metaphor because the power of the Holy Spirit obviously carries us, carries us over the finish line. But talking about that faith and that surrender and that obedience like a muscle, it really almost is like training for a marathon. And then when you do finish, that race, there are other trials and other difficult things that you go through in life,

that you look back and I still think about that half marathon. Wow, that was something I never thought I could do, but I could. I did. I trained for it and I did it. And there are still things today that that applies to that helps me through today. I would say metaphorically, faith is very similar, especially when you're talking about a test of persecution, right? I don't know that I can say it better than you just said it. Oh, well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you so much for all of your encouragement and your inspiration, your advice to people. Can people follow you? Can they support you? Can they go to any resources that you provide anywhere online? Yeah, we have a webpage starters.org. And that goes back to a prayer. I prayed in 2007. Father God, draw me so close to your heart that you'll be able to trust me with the authority to start waves. And that is what began a pursuit of God. heart, it's that pursuit that prepared me, prepared my heart then for the very difficulties

of prison. And that's what we call our ministry now. We're focused on the Muslim world. We still have a missionary call, but what's really on my heart for the U.S., and this is an assignment, I feel, for God, for the U.S., is to help to prepare the bride to stand in difficult times. and one of the reasons he allowed me, he was doing many things with my imprisonment, but one of them was allowing me to be broken again and again and again.

And each time I was broken, I had to learn perseverance at a deeper level. And the reason he was doing this, I believe, is I told my wife a number of times, God chose the wrong man. I just can't do this. And then I came to a point where I said, you know, Noreen, maybe God chose the right man because he wanted a weak man. who in spite of his weakness would persevere, and in that way, be an encouragement to other weak people.

And so I think that one of the things God was doing was preparing me so that I can encourage others who are going to face difficult times. And to underline, in spite of our weakness, we can persevere. We must persevere. There are choices that we make now that will set us up, because God doesn't want us. This is one of the, I want to encourage people.

There are difficulties coming. But Daniel, the prophet Daniel, the words that he said in Daniel 1132, that verse is just really in my heart. The ones who know their God, the people who know their God, shall stand and take action. So if we know our God, then we will be faithful to him. But it's not just surviving, it's not just standing all of those. that is so important, but we will also take action. So I think that God has assignments for the

people who are listening to this or who are watching this. There is going to be a rising tide of darkness. Darkness is going to increase. It's going to be more intense. But at the same time, God is going to be purifying his church. And many people who are in darkness are going to end up turning away from that and coming to the children of light. We're the children of light. He assignments for us. Yes. And so I want to encourage people, prepare yourself so that, yes, you will not only stand, but because God is going to use you in a very powerful way. He has assignments for you. So yes, if people want to pray for us, they can go to our waivstarters.org and we need people who will partner with us. Definitely. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate

all of your encouragement and your insight. I know a lot of people are going to get a lot out of this. So thank you. Thank you for taking the time to talk to us. Thank you. Blessings to you.