Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 440 | Facing Demonic Forces & Spiritual Warfare | Guest: Billy Hallowell

Episode Date: June 17, 2021

Today, we're talking to journalist and author Billy Hallowell about the reality of demons and other spirits that many Christians don't usually think about. Billy says that this topic needs to be more talked about among believers, especially as our politics and culture descend further into insanity. We discuss a some politics as well, since Billy is a bit of an outlier; he voted for Trump in 2016 but not in 2020. --- Today's Sponsors: Good Ranchers delivers 100% American steak or chicken directly to your door! It's individually wrapped, vacuum sealed and ready to grill. Go to GoodRanchers.com/ALLIE & save $20 off, plus get free express shipping! StartMail: your cyber security has never been more at risk. Take control of your privacy with StartMail before it's too late! Go to StartMail.com/ALLIE & save 50% off your first year! --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Today I am talking to Billy Hollowell. He wrote a book called Playing with Fire. And it's about supernatural activity, demonic possession, Satan, Satanic powers, things that we don't necessarily talk about explicitly that much on this podcast or really in Christian culture at all. But he has uncovered why he thinks it's so important, especially in this present moment for Christians to understand that this is going on, to see how this is going on, and then for us with the power of Christ to push back against this. First, we're actually going to talk about a little political subject, but it'll tie all together because he did not vote for Trump in 2020. And so we're going to talk a little bit about our differences in our agreements there.

So it's a really good conversation that I'm looking forward to you hearing. Here is Billy Hollowell. Billy, thank you so much for joining me. I think a lot of people who are listening or watching already are familiar with you and your work, but just in case, can you tell everyone who you are and what you do? Sure, yeah. So I am a journalist. I'm a commentator. I actually worked at the Blaze. I was the faith editor at the Blaze for about five years, and so I'm a huge Blaze fan. And I've been working for really the last 15 years, more than 15 years now, in media. And so politics and faith. And in the last really five to seven years, my focus has been culture and faith and just diving deep into the patterns of what we see happening, why it's happening, and sort of helping

people navigate that. And you wrote a book called Playing with Fire and about supernatural activity and demonic activity. And I want to get into all of that. And I'm super excited. That's going to be the bulk of our, bulk of our episode. But something that you and I have talked about on Twitter before that we talked about a long time ago discussing on this podcast is your support, then you're not support of Donald Trump. And by support, I just kind of mean that you voted for him. In 2016, you did not vote for him in 2020. And I'm just so interested to hear your reasoning on that because that's not something that I hear a lot of conservative Christians say that they did. It's sort of the opposite, right? You hear a lot of people say, I didn't vote in 2016,

and then I did in 2020. And so here's the thing. I live in New York. And I had said many times during the campaign, and this is, it sort of sounds like a cop out. But if I lived in a state where I felt like it really mattered, I would have shown up and voted differently, right? And so I didn't vote for either Trump or Biden. And I really struggled, you know, honestly with the entire thing. And I think for me, it was, you know, in 2016, I sat down with Trump two weeks before the election.

He called a bunch of never Trumpers. to Trump Tower. And I have to tell you, I wasn't a never-trumper. Like, I've never been a never-trumper. I've never been a, you know, pro-pro pro-pro-Rot-Trumper. But I sat there and I listened to him and I was really conflicted in 2016 as well, not between the two candidates. I wasn't going to vote for Hillary. But whether or not I wanted to put my name, you know, on this whole, you know, Trump thing. And so at the end of the day, I felt like I wanted to give him a shot and I did it. And I have to tell you, policy-wise, I think it's really hard for a lot of conservatives. Of course, pull out little bits and pieces of things we don't agree with or we don't like, it's really hard

to walk away and say, oh, Trump did a terrible job on policy. Yeah. I think, you know, take the capital and all that other chaos, no matter what people think about that and push it to the side. For me, his rhetoric has always been very problematic. And I am the first person to say, you vote on policy. And so when I walked into the polls and I was voting in 2020, I honestly didn't know what I was going to do walking in.

And I just prayed about it. And I felt like, you know what, I live in New York. I don't need to do this. And so I chose not to do it. Now, a lot of people have been very angry at me, but I make the point, it doesn't really matter. I live in New York. The state was going to Biden.

And so it was sort of an easy cop out for me. So was it based on any kind of principle or any reason other than you just didn't think that it was going to do anything? Well, no, of course, for me, the principle was, you know, having struggled with the rhetoric and having struggled with the behavior. You know, I've spent a lot of time looking at my own behavior in media, the things I've said. When I started in media, I was 15 years old. I'm 37 now.

So I've been doing this for a long time. I've been out there talking and saying things and speaking for a very long time. And I don't know that for me, I've always handled myself the way that I would want to, right? And so I look back at that and I look at the way that Trump is. And for me, I just felt convicted that I wasn't going to go out there. I wasn't going to support it. I'm not judging those who did. Listen, I understand the reasons for supporting Trump.

I've been out of, you know, the strict politics world now for a couple of years. And so I've had the flexibility to sort of not have to dive into those discussions if I don't want to. And for me, I just really felt like I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to put my name on it. I'm not going to subscribe to it right now. And having said all of that, I know it sparks anger in some people. And I've had a lot of conversations about this, people who feel that people, People like me haven't helped the problem, right?

We've made the problem worse because we haven't stood up and supported Trump. For me, it's about the policies. And I've always been very open and vocal on policy. And I will continue to be pro-life policy, you know, in conservative values. I just felt like in 2020, I had the ability to not have to show up. So for me, it was principal. And it would have been a struggle for me to go out there and say, I love Donald Trump. I love everything Donald Trump stands for because the reality is,

I agree with the policies, but I don't love many of the things that Donald Trump as a person stands for. Yeah. And I mean, I would agree with that. And everyone on this podcast knows how I feel about it. And I even have some people who have told me that, you know, I am the reason or I'm part of the reason why Donald Trump lost because there's, I so often caveat my support of him with saying, you know, I love that he did this.

I am going to vote for him. I did vote for him in 2016 and 2020 based on the reasons that you just. said. And so you and I both had the same kind of reasoning and the same kind of logic and feelings about Trump. I ultimately, um, you know, I ultimately voted for him both times based on those policies that, that we agree with. But I very often offer the same kind of qualifications and caveats that you do that, look, I don't like when Trump says this. I don't like when Trump does this. I don't like this part about his character. I don't like when he did this or that type of critical or that's not conservative or something like that. And unfortunately, a do a lot. A lot of

of people on the right and the left when it comes to their respective candidates really do want total puritanical support of their guy, of their champion. And they think any kind of coloring outside of those lines means that you want the destruction of America or you want the failure of that candidate or you precipitated the failure of that candidate. And that's just not true. Do you agree? Well, I do agree. And I will tell you that looking at what has happened, in the last month and a half, two months, looking at cancel culture, looking at all of these things, it again brings that question up, is this the kind of America that you want to live in? And I think people like me who really had that struggle, right, you know, you kind of come back

to, well, what kind of policies do I want to live under? We're having the debate about the Equality Act. We're having all of these discussions now. And so, and I know that people will kick me for saying this, but my vote didn't really matter in this case. I'm a New Yorker. I know what it's like here. And I didn't feel compelled to stand up, but I will tell you, I feel compelled to stand up on those

issues. And when we have another election in 2024 and we have to look at this again, these are huge important issues. And it makes me very nervous looking at the sort of culture that is being incubated and created by the people who are claiming to be so liberal and open when in reality they're not. And so we've got big issues in this country. But for me also, I would say, you know, I came off of writing this book, which we're going to talk about. And so I was looking at everything. in a hyper spiritual way. And as I was doing that, I felt convicted to sort of pull myself away from politics a little bit. And so it was kind of the perfect storm when the election hit of me sort of saying,

I'm going to pull. And it's a little selfish, right? Admittedly. But I'm going to pull myself out of this right now. And I really want to put my focus on reaching people because at the end of the day, we can debate politics. And don't get me wrong, politics are important all day long. But if we don't start reaching people, and this is from a Christian perspective for Christ,

there is going to be no change. right? And it has to start at the individual level. And of course, it has to move into the corporate level as well. So there was a lot going on in my heart and in my mind during this election season. And I would counter anybody out there who's getting angry or frustrated with people based on how they voted to actually sit down and talk about it because you and I probably agree on 99% of things. And I think most of us, you know, do on the conservative side when we sit down. And so that to me is the important starting place. Yeah, I agree. And I know plenty of of people who didn't vote for either candidate, either in 2016 or 2020 or both, obviously,

as a conservative, as if someone who looks at these policies and looks at politics and talks about these things a lot, it is harder for me to be as sympathetic toward a vote directly for Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton just because of the policies that are promoted there. And that doesn't mean, though, that I think that those people, you know, I've revoked their salvation card, which thankfully I do not have the responsibility nor the ability to do, or that I don't think that they were well-meaning people. You can still, you can still, though, say, and I know that you agree with this, that, you know, I think that that was a wrong choice. They probably think that I had a wrong choice, too, but I do think it's important

for Christians to sit down and to have those conversations. And look, I have talked to a lot of Christians who voted for Joe Biden. There's not a single reason that I, agree with her that I think is a good logical reason, just to be honest. But I still don't, I'm still not in a place, nor do I have the desire to say, well, that means that you're not a believer, or that means that you don't really love God. Maybe there, maybe we just have a difference of opinion, maybe, or maybe they really are just wrong. I do think directly voting for pro-abortion and policies and the Equality Act and all of that is actually very tangibly and clearly wrong. But thank goodness, we are not judged ultimately by our vote.

Unfortunately, there are people who identify as Christians on the Republican and the Democratic side who really think that we are. And I just praise the Lord that that's not the case. Well, and here's the thing, right? We talk about cancel culture, which I love to call cancer culture, because it infects everything. And the left, I mean, the left is so guilty of this. But it is happening a little bit on the right. And it's happening in these arenas of, you know, if you didn't support Trump, right?

And you know, you're just, it's like we're going to cancel those people. We need to get rid of them. And I think we have to be really careful that while we're calling the left out, that we don't do the same thing on the right. And so I agree with everything you just said. I think for me, I can't possibly grasp what would what would make a Christian be passionate about Joe Biden's policies and who Joe Biden is. I mean, it just, it doesn't, it doesn't add up for me.

It's one thing to say somebody's a nice guy or I think he's a good guy. And you may think that. But at the end of the day, you have two things to really base a vote on, in my view, a platform, you know, policies that are laid out. And then you actually have the policies themselves that have been enacted. And so when it comes to those things, particularly on the life issue, on identity, on what we see happening throughout our culture right now, to me as a Christian, it's, now I'm going to do the same thing you're doing.

I'm not going to say you can't be a critic. I know Christians who voted for Joe Biden because they were so disgusted with the rhetoric and the things they saw coming from Trump. But I, but for me, again, it goes. back to those hallmarks of the platforms and the policies. Yeah. And you mentioned that when you were kind of deciding on your vote and what you were going to do, you were coming off of writing this book playing with fire and you were kind of in this hyper, or what you described is like this hyper spiritualized perspective. And I think it's good for us to have always that eternal and supernatural

perspective of things that are going on that might not mean that we all land in the same place as Christians even having that perspective, but it is important for us to think about things eternally and for us to think about things spiritually. You have touched on this spiritual subject of demonic activity, supernatural activity that a lot of people don't think about. We don't like to think about. We don't like to talk about pastors don't talk about. There's not very many books on this subject. And yet I get a lot of questions about this subject about, okay, like, what is hell? What is Satan? What power do demons actually have? Because there's a rise in witchcraft. There's a rise in the new age, especially among young women.

And so Christians are like, okay, hang on, what does the spiritual realm of good versus evil actually really look like? So can you talk just to summarize, I guess, a little bit about why you wrote this book and what it's about? Yeah. So with playing with fire, this was a book that there was another publisher, years back that this idea came about of doing a journalistic exploration from a Christian lens, but as a journalist, sort of diving into this topic. And at the time, I moved away from it. You know, I had a book offer and I was like, you know what? I prayed about it. I just felt like I'm more into politics right now. Of course, I care about faith. I'm a lifelong Christian, but I don't want to touch this dark topic. And so it felt very dark to me. I moved away from it.

And I have to tell you that if God has a way of bringing us back to the things he wants us to do, And so I basically had a book offer dropped on my lap to do this a couple of years after the original book offer. And I sat on it for two months just praying about it and thinking about it. And for me, you know, even when I worked at the Blaze, we would sometimes get these stories, right? You'd get these mainstream outlets that were covering possession stories. And so I was always intrigued by it. And we would cover them and we'd do our due diligence to try to understand what people were claiming had happened. But I realized there was this profound disconnect between the claims that people were making,

right, and the things we see in the Bible and what was being talked about not only in secular circles, but Christian circles. And when I went to Wright playing with fire, we did survey research among church leaders. And it was really remarkable to see that the vast majority of church leaders would say, yeah, we believe in demons. Yeah, we believe that, you know, and by the way, church leaders are not just pastors, there's people who run Bible studies and all sorts of different leadership positions. But they would say, yeah, we believe all this.

We know it impacts culture. But then when you'd ask the question, is your church talking about this enough? The vast majority would say no. And so that disconnect for me, I really felt compelled, obviously, to work on this project as I prayed about it. But I became intrigued by that because I thought, gosh, I don't think there's another topic talked about so frequently in scripture, particularly the New Testament, and spoken about so infrequently in churches. And that is concerning because at the end of the day,

Hollywood, and this is sort of remarkable, at the same time churches are talking less about this, you've got Hollywood churning out the conjuring, the conjuring too, all these demon possession movies, right? Again and again and again and again. And so Hollywood is actually improperly, but they're talking about a topic more so than the churches. And it's actually a church topic. So that was sort of the thing that really compelled me into this. Yeah, so let's talk about demonic activity and the power that Satan actually has on us. Let's start with a specific question so I don't leave it so open and did. One question that I get a lot is, does Satan have control of your mind?

Can Satan read your thoughts? Does Satan have control of your thoughts? Let's start there and kind of move outwards. Can you answer that question? Yeah, it's really interesting. I guess the answer to the question is how much have you allowed Satan into your life, right? And so the thing in talking with so many theologians and pastors, I mean, the general premise here is that you go back to Ephesion 6, right? And for me, Ephesion 6 is such a fascinating chapter because it tells us everything we need to know about good and evil.

And it's encapsulated in just a few verses, but it tells us we're in a battle over good and evil that what protects us from that battle, taking up the shield of faith, is being Christian. living a Christian lifestyle. It's not just saying, oh, I'm a Christian. It's living that out, having a relationship with Christ. And so when people ask that question, generally I find that people are afraid. They're fearful of these things. And they want to understand, can Satan rid my mind? Does he know what I'm doing?

And as Christians, the answer would be, no, you're protected if you're living that lifestyle. If you are somebody who has opened yourself up to evil, well, then we're talking about a little bit of a different story. And so there's a really wide scale of stories that you encounter. And when you look in Scripture, I mean, we see really, really extreme examples of possession, right? We see children. We see adults. We see Jesus healing people. And we see some of the effects of what possession looks like in Scripture.

But we're also given a lot of pieces of advice from the Olds in the New Testament about what we should be avoiding, avoiding witchcraft, avoiding psychics, avoiding all of these things that pop culture actually praises. and that you, as you mentioned, we're seeing increases in all of these things. And I know a lot of people listening, by the way, even in the conservative world, they'll hear some of this and they'll think, oh, this is silly, this isn't real. But the reality is you have a scenario, and I talk about this in playing with fire, where since the beginning of time, this has been a common experience, the idea that there is obviously a spiritual realm, but not just that, the idea that there is evil and that evil can affect you.

And I know I'm giving a very long-winded answer here, but it's actually very very, very very complicated. When you open yourself up to these things, you really are, you know, playing with fire. You're potentially transforming your life in a very negative way, just like as Christians, when we open ourselves up to truth and we accept Christ, we are on the opposite end, opening ourselves up to something really wonderful, right? So they're polar opposite dynamics, but there are so many credible and also incredible healing stories in the mix of all that. We hear about witchcraft a lot as it pertains to countries in Africa or even Haiti. When people think about witchcraft, they kind of think about, I think third world countries or the eastern world.

They don't think about things that are happening or trends that we see here in the West. And when we hear about demonic activity or demonic possession, it seems to typically comes come from cultures like that. So what does demonic possession look like today in our own cultural context? Because I can't believe that it's only happening in certain countries and wouldn't be happening here. Yeah, well, you know, it's really interesting about that. As I was working on the book and talking with pastors and priests and individuals who are dealing with this on a daily basis, believe it or not, there are deliverance pastors and there are ministers who deal outside of the Catholic Church in exorcism. And then the Catholic Church has obviously the right of exorcism,

which we can talk about. But in America, we've had a really interesting heritage here, right? We've had this Judeo-Christian underpinning. And even though we're moving away from that and we're seeing the effect of that, it's fascinating to look back at that history. I think in a lot of ways, because Christianity has been so, even if it's just nominal, ingrained in who we are, we often don't see these sorts of things. But it doesn't mean they're not happening. And And to give you an example, all of these experts told me that they have seen massive increases. And actually, the Catholic Church has openly said this in requests for help, meaning that there are people, whether or not they're truly dealing with these issues, they believe they are.

And that is increasing. So as you sort of map out that move away from faith in America, which I think is really fascinating, you know this in talking about culture. We see all these bizarre things happening in culture, but we also see at the same time that people are experiencing more and more spiritual duress as that unfolds. And so we've had a number of stories in America. In fact, one is very famous in Gary, Indiana, back in 2014. There was a major news story. And what was so unique about this story was that it made its way into the Indianapolis Star. This is a mainstream media outlet that had collected so much data and information on this alleged possession story that they were able to

publish a really well-sourced article. And that article went international. but it was really intriguing to see. And I talk about this particular case in Gary, Indiana, quite a bit in the book, to see that one of these things was actually making its way into the mainstream. So the short answer to that is you have a lot of practices going on in other places. You have a lot of things that are happening there spiritually, and you talk to missionaries. They will tell you they've experienced those things.

I think we're also having that happen more here. And I'd be really intrigued to map out as we move further away from faith, the development I wish wasn't happening, how much more of these sorts of requests for help we see unfold. And I wonder if it may, if something like demonic possession or demonic influence might just look differently than we imagine it or that it looks in other cultures and countries. Obviously, something can be demonically and is evilly influenced if it's not of God, period. That doesn't necessarily mean someone convulsing or someone having to have, you know, Holy Water, as we see in the movies being thrown on them and their bodies thrashing against the

wall. Right, right. It might not look like that. But I think that we do need to normalize to use a term that is or a word that's used so often now, normalize seeing the supernatural in the natural. And I do wonder from your perspective, is there, though, a danger in that? Like, is there a balance in describing like spiritual significance to every, you? single thing that happens? Or is that the right way to view things is, okay, there's no neutral

ground. Everything is either claimed by Christ or counterclaimed by Satan, at least in the here and now on earth. We know that Christ ultimately reigns and defeats Satan and sin forever. So what is the right way to like look at things? Because sometimes it seems like we can over spiritualize or supernaturalize things as well. But we also don't want to miss it when it is actually spiritual and eternal and supernatural. That's such a good, that's such a good question. And there's two things. Okay, the first thing, I was, I was in a debate recently with an atheist, Michael Schumer,

who's a prominent atheist. And we were talking about whether or not demons exist. It was a great conversation. But as we were having this discussion, it's so interesting how we break down natural versus supernatural. And we all do this, right? We're like, okay, that's a natural thing, right? Existence is a natural thing.

And everything else over here is supernatural. But I've actually started thinking more about that. And it's so fascinating to me that we live in a world and we live in a universe where if the earth was off of its axis just a little bit, we'd burn or freeze. You've got trees. You've got flowers. You have all these amazing systems, right? The human body is incredible.

And so we're actually living supernaturally, but yet we assume it's just natural. And I think atheists tend to do this a lot. They're like, yeah, well, that's for this weird category over here. And it's like, well, actually, it's all weird. Like the fact that we have consciousness that we're sitting here, you know, talking in the way that we are, that we have all of this existence before us that points to a creator. It's all supernatural. And so I just wanted to mention that because I think it actually reframes the way that we think about some of this. But to more specifically answer your question, the thing that I encountered a lot in researching this topic is just like you were stating, there are two dynamics. There's the demon under every rock, right? Those are the people who they think everything is demonic. every bad decision, every disease, every illness. If it's cancer, there are some people who believe cancer is caused by demons. And then you have the other dynamic, which is what we were talking about before.

And that's sort of the, oh, demons aren't responsible for anything. They don't exist. They're not around anymore. Or I just don't care. I'm not going to think about it. And there's a middle ground that you have to sort of strike with this to understand. Again, you go back to that Ephesion 6 chapter that we are living in a battle, whether we like it or not, whether people want to admit it or not, we have this battle over good and evil, and we're in the

middle of this. Every human being is. And so to your point before, when you were sort of asking about the different ways this manifests itself, we tend to talk about possession because it's the strangest and it's the most stark and we see those stories, obviously, in scripture. But we also see that demonic influence is a totally different and more pervasive thing for most people. Possession is very uncommon.

And even the Catholic Church and Protestants who deal with this will tell you that the majority of cases that come to them, when they investigate them, they find something else is going on there, right? Whether it's a mental condition, whether it's some other explanation. So it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It exists. It's just not as often as we think. But what is very common is the affliction of having evil come into our life in some way

or seize on some struggle that we're having, it was interesting to talk with mental health providers about addiction. And so many of the people who I spoke with, they would say, well, listen, you know, they very infrequently would encounter somebody who had addiction who didn't have a spiritual issue going on alongside it. And so that obviously is a major issue of debate, and I spent a lot of time talking to mental health providers

because I wanted to understand that dynamic, because this is an area when you talk about what's demonic, what's not, where a lot of confusion happens, the mental illness versus possession or at least infestation debate. So there's a lot going on there, but we want to have discernment and we want to make sure that we know what we're dealing with when it comes to spiritual matters. Yes, I think that that explains it really well. And there is a balance because obviously if we ascribe every sickness or cancer or addiction to some kind of specific. demonic possession, then that could lead to, you know, a faulty mentality about people who get sick and somehow blaming it on them. What did you do to open yourself up to this kind of demonic force? And I don't think that kind of thing is supported by scripture at all. And unfortunately, we do see that kind of wedding of kind of weird, occultic new age practices with some forms of Christianity, unfortunately. And I think we do have to be discerning.

At the same time, we understand that every bit of sadness and sorrow and sickness and corruption and sin in this world is due to evil and is due to the fall. So like you were saying, it's not specific demonic possession that causes these things, but it is evil. I mean, as Ephesians 2 says, Satan is the prince of the power of the air. So he does have jurisdiction, no more than God allows, but he does have jurisdiction and evil and satanic forces in a general sense is the reason for, you know, every malady and every injustice and every kind of trespass. And I think the hope that we have, both in the present and, but ultimately in the future, is that God is going to take care of all of that. Like he is going to write those wrongs and he is going to defeat Satan and sin once and for all.

Thankfully, in the new heaven and the new earth, we won't be having this conversation about sin and Satan and demonic power. So I think rather than being scared, Christians can be aware and we can also be super hopeful. Absolutely. I mean, that's the whole thing. And so when I was putting this book together, my end goal was not to freak people out or scare them. Playing with Fire is filled with stories of people who have dealt with possession. They've dealt with spiritual issues. They've overcome them.

There are pastors. There are people who on the mental health side, as I mentioned, who talk about what they've experienced. But I wanted to point people back to hope because what you just said is so true. And one of the things for me in writing a book where you pull things out of the Bible that only deal with evil, I mean, I was actually getting this opportunity, which I know sounds strange to look at, okay, who is Satan? What does Jesus tell us about Satan? What are the scriptures tell us about evil? And let's look at all the stories. And to put that all together,

what it actually did for me. And I'm not going to lie to you. I was afraid to write the book. I know I mentioned I said no the first time, and then I sat on the contract for two months. But after, as I was writing it, and then after, I felt this incredible piece because it actually points you back toward good. Understanding evil points us back to our need for grace. And for me, I felt like there was such a big piece missing in the understanding of what all of this actually means. And it feels weird. And I'm a journalist.

So by nature, I like to question things. I want to be proven. I want somebody to give me details and facts and to prove to me that their experience is real. And so having that chance to sort of vet these stories and go into them and then to present them and to say, listen, you don't have to believe these things. I'd encourage atheists to pick up the book and read it because. it helps you understand from a Christian perspective of what we believe. But as Christians, it's really refining and really helpful to get that full picture that I think

sometimes our churches, you know, and we're part of this too as Christians, we sort of fail one another and not talking about it because it feels weird or we don't want to be looked at strangely. I mean, Hollywood's got no problem talking about it. And of course, they think it's fake. They think it's not true, many of them, but they're presenting it. And yet we have these incredible opportunities to really help people. because if you are dealing with evil in some form, and by the way, most of us do, at some point in our life, we're dealing with this, you know, this pressure that evil can inflict even on Christians' lives.

And we don't know how to properly deal with that. That's how you really run into problems, not only individually, but corporately and as a culture. I think there's also an opportunity. You said that Hollywood presents this stuff is not real. Well, I've also seen a lot of, especially in like the young woman influential. self-help realm, that there are a lot of women who are open to the existence of the supernatural. Unfortunately, it's leading them into unbiblical kind of like occultic type practices where

they think that there's supernatural power in crystals or there's supernatural power in, you know, chakras, whatever it is, the strange new age stuff that they actually do see some kind of empowerment from. Yes, that's dangerous, but it's also an opportunity for Christians to say, you know, I know where the real power lies. Like, you want supernatural power. You're right. It exists. It is absolutely out there. Yes, we are in a battle between good and evil, which a lot of new age people think. But like, let me redirect you towards the truth. Let me redirect you towards reality. Let me show you the true rock, not your crystals that don't have any supernatural power. But The crystal thing is crazy, by the way.

The crystal thing is blowing up everywhere. And it's remarkable to watch this void. And you know this. As we move away from God, as this void opens more and more. Because everybody, I mean, God made us to connect with him. And when we don't do that, when we choose not to do that, we have, there's a void. And we're going to fill it with something. And we're watching culture scramble right now to fill the void with all sorts of things

that I think actually feed off of this sort of evil. and this evil actually vice versa feeds off of. And so the crystals have been fascinating to watch. And I've seen some Christians who I know who have just descended completely into this world. And so you're right, it's a real opportunity to connect with people and to talk about it. And I've had people coming to me,

emailing me, sharing stories. I can't tell you how many people are afraid to share their story. They're afraid to talk about the things they've gone through in this arena, whether they've gone into crystals or other things or whether they went through what they believe, was a possession or some sort of spiritual affliction. And I would encourage people to be there and to have these conversations because a lot of

people have these stories. When you look at the polling data among Americans, not just Christians, you have almost half of the population experiencing this sort of thing or believing that it exists. And so it's not as weird as we think it is. We know if we believe the Bible, okay? If we believe scripture, we absolutely cannot ignore all of these stories throughout scripture, and I use the word stories lightly because we believe these things happened, of Jesus confronting these things. And by the way, not to go on a tangent, but if people are going to say,

well, this ended with Jesus, you know, there was no more evil, demonic, you know, force walking around after Jesus came. Well, we see in Acts 16, we see Paul dealing with this, with this slave woman who's following him around, who, by the way, has a spirit that allows her to be a fortune teller, essentially a psychic. And I had never noticed that story, but I found it fascinating because I've encountered many Christians who believe that these issues ended with Jesus. Well, they didn't. And there are a lot of stories today, even in our country, that show that that is not the case. Yes. And I think Christians just have to be so discerning in even if something doesn't seem explicitly satanic or explicitly demonic, like playing with fire, as you've said,

leads probably to more explicit forms or more obvious forms of demonic activity. There's a reason why in the Old Testament, like God warrants his people against seers, against psychics. And we see, like you said, that that is actually a demonic spirit in the New Testament. There are a lot of Christians or, you know, professing Christians who are interested in their zodiac signs. They're interested in tarot cards. They ascribe supernatural power to things that don't have supernatural natural power. There are some Christians, I know this is controversial, but who ascribe way too much power and authority to things like the Ineagram. And I just think that- People are obsessed with that. Yes. That's another thing. It's like, okay, you know, I can't, well, it's just, you know, these,

not to interrupt you, but these things are, we start to put our faith in these things. We start to put our reliance in these things. Even the Ouija board, which everybody laughs whenever it's brought up, I actually did, I did a chapter on it. And I was even laughing about So, I mean, I never touched a Ouija board. I always knew as a Christian growing up, stay away from them. You don't want to mess with it. But when you go into the history of the Ouija board and you start to look at where it came from and all of these details about the fact that there was a medium involved in actually creating it,

you walk away and you say, gosh, you know, these are tools that people are using to put their faith in something else. And many times we're desperate. We want to connect with a dead loved one. You know, and that's it preys on those sorts of desperation. and instead of putting our faith in Christ, we start to put our faith in any of the things you just mentioned or the Ouija board or whatever it is that's going to give us that immediate satisfaction

when again it needs to be in something higher and above ourselves. Yes, and amen. And thankfully, that longing that we all have for something bigger, for something spiritual, that's something that God placed in all of us. That's not something that you have argued so well, that we need to just turn off and just deny exists. but that spiritual curiosity that we have is thankfully satisfied in the spiritual reality that is

dictated by God himself and is found in Christ. Can you tell people again how they can follow you, where they can find your book, anything else you want to direct them to, or anything else you want to say as well? Absolutely, yeah. So if you go to playing with firebook.com, you can grab it. It's at Walmart and Amazon and all the places that, you know, books are sold. And I would just encourage people. And by the way, you could follow me at Billy Hollowell. It's my website and all the socials. But I would just say for anybody who's curious about the topic, who wants to know more about it, obviously grab the book. But really look at our culture, look at what is happening around us. It is not a coincidence that we're watching chaos ensue

as we're moving more away from faith. And don't be afraid to really dive in and understand what is going on because I think it's so easy for us to get consumed by the politics to get consumed, not that we shouldn't care. Don't misread me here, but to get consumed with all of these details outside of truth, outside of the gospel. And it's really easy in a material world, and we all fall prey to this, to assume that everything we're seeing is all that's happening before us. But there is a lot more going on behind the scenes.

There is a spiritual battle. Scripture tells us this. And if we don't acknowledge that, that's how we find ourselves. and again, individual and cultural trouble. And right now we are in cultural trouble. And I know a lot of people are struggling. A lot of people are afraid. People are looking at what's going on and they're wondering what the future holds.

And I've really come in the last year or two to really fall into my faith and to realize that at the end of the day, no matter what is going on around us, Christ is what matters most. And that that's the message we need to get to other people. And so I would just encourage people that understanding evil points you back to truth. and I just appreciate you having me on today. Yeah. And just to tie a bow on this to loop it back to how we started this conversation, it's important for Christians as well to remember who the true enemy is. It's not fellow Christians with whom we have political disagreements,

although those political disagreements like you've said and like I believe, are very important and should be talked about and can be discussed, and there is probably a right and a wrong to those things. So I'm certainly not saying that they don't matter. But at the end of the day, Satan, of course, would love to distract us, from who the true enemy is. And for us to believe that everyone who disagrees with us is on his side. So we kind of forget and obfuscate who the real enemy is.

And that is Satan and sin. And thankfully, we have victory and unity, by the way, in Christ. And I think that is the hope also that your message brings. So thank you. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for writing this book, even though you did so with some trepidation. I know that it's going to help a lot of people. We'll make sure to link it in the description.

to this podcast. So thank you again. Thanks so much for having me.