Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 476 | Anxious About Everything: Addressing Anxiety Biblically | Guest: Dr. Andi Thacker

Episode Date: August 24, 2021

Today we're talking to Dr. Andi Thacker, assistant professor of biblical counseling at Dallas Theological Seminary, about anxiety in adults and kids and the theology and science behind it. For the many of us who have been struggling with the weight of the world, Dr. Thacker has some biblical advice and encouragement, as well as knowledge on some of the psychology playing out in our heads. --- Today's Sponsors: Annie's Kit Clubs is a fun & convenient way to be creative & they have an amazing selection to choose from: crocheting, knitting, card-making, jewelry-making, quilting, sewing — there's never been a better time to try it out! Go to AnniesKitClubs.com/ALLIE & save 50% on your first kit! Good Ranchers safely delivers American craft beef & better-than-organic chicken, right to your door! You can place a one-time order or, better yet, subscribe & save 20% with each purchase. Go to GoodRanchers.com/ALLIE to get $20 off & free express shipping. --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed.

You can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Tuesday. Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far. That's how I open my show every day. Maybe I need to test some new openers. If you have any ideas, let me know.

Today's conversation that I'm about to have with Dr. Thacker. from Dallas Theological Seminary is going to be, you're going to absolutely love it. It is such a refreshing conversation. We're taking a step back from everything that's going on in the world. We're not talking about politics. We're not really talking about what's going on in the news. And we are going to talk about mental health. Specifically, we're going to talk about anxiety and how we approach anxiety from a biblical

perspective. She's going to give us some practical tools that we can use our, when we find ourselves kind of trapped in anxious thoughts. And then we're also going to talk about how we approach this in our or with our kids and with adolescents, especially teenagers. You know, the world has really turned upside down for them as well over the past year and a half. And we're really seeing a rise in mental health issues among young people. And so she's going to give a lot of advice and also a lot of encouragement for parents, either parents of littles, but especially for parents of teenagers or maybe if you're a teenager

yourself, she's going to give us some tips to work through anxiety, to work through depression and to work through a lot of pressure that kids are feeling right now and what parents can do to come alongside kids in really tough seasons. And so I hope that this feels like a breath of fresh air for you guys. We've been talking a lot over the past couple of weeks of feeling like the weight of the world is just on our shoulders, feeling like we are bearing burdens that God never meant us to bear because of the power of social media, making us feel like we have to be everywhere, see everything, know everything, and do everything about everything all at once. And we just don't have the capacity to do that. We are fallible, finite human beings.

we have a threshold of information that we can take in. We have a limited capacity. And so we can only do so much and see so much and read so much before we have to cut ourselves off and say, okay, I've had my limit of information for the day. Here's what I'm going to do with this information. Here's how I care about this information. Here's where it falls on my list of priorities. And then you kind of have to just cut yourself off and we have to pay attention to the people that God has placed right in front of us, the spheres that God has placed us in to occupy. Our goal in life is to glorify God and everything that we think, say, and do. We can't focus on what's going to happen tomorrow or in 10 years from now.

We can do what we can to prepare for those things, but we can't obsess over them because they make us feel like we have to be God and we are not. And so Dr. Thacker is going to walk us through how we can kind of, of approach this very anxiety-ridden world that we live in. And I'm super, I'm super excited about that. I'm super excited for you to be able to listen to this conversation, always trying to give you guys kind of a balance of, okay, here's what's going on in the world.

And also here's the bigger picture. Here's what we have to remember as Christian. So that's what this is today. And then tomorrow we're probably going to talk about Afghanistan. unless there's something else that you guys want me to talk about. We're going to talk about everything that's going on there. I've really been wanting to talk about that, but there's so much information that I've been trying to gather. We might have a guest for that, or it might just be me kind of telling you the news and analyzing it. Then Thursday, if you guys want to have a theological

subject, then we can talk about theology or if there's another news topic. Also, oh, I've almost forgotten to tell you guys this. So we are going to start to do some. thing. Really fun. We are going to start to take voicemails from you guys and I have to pull up the voicemail number on my phone. So you guys can leave me a voicemail and I will listen to it and if it's a good question or if it's whatever we might be calling for. So for example, we might call for like would you rather to do like a fun segment or we might call for like an embarrassing story or something like that to do a fun segment or we might call for some kind of like compelling story about how you changed your school board's minds on a particular issue or you might just have a question and so you can use this phone number

to leave a voicemail for us and only leave a voicemail if you were okay with that voicemail being played on the show we'll tell you before it gets played probably if we have the capacity to do that but um uh but i we might we might not i don't know just don't leave a message unless you're okay with the message being public so you know like don't put your address in there don't say your name if you don't want your name to become public so i'm going to tell you the phone number right now it is 682-503-1369 that's 682 503 503-103-1369 you can call that number you can leave us a voicemail and we'll be doing these different segments and so I'll be asking specifically if you have a question about this leave me a voicemail and we might play it on the show so there might be different

categories so that's super fun also if you love the show please leave a five-star review on apple podcast that would mean a whole lot to us subscribe on YouTube if you haven't done that already and we're getting our little like YouTube plaque like this little silver award thing for hitting 100,000 subscribers a long time ago. So that's fun. Maybe we'll open the box on on here. Also, one more thing. If you have any ideas for what we should do for a 500th episode, which is coming up very soon, let me know. Let me know what you would like to do. Maybe we'll take voice mails for that as well. Hey, this is Steve Deast. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political.

They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.

Andy, thank you so much for joining us. Can you tell everyone who you are and what you do? Yeah, I'm Andy Thacker and I'm an assistant professor in the biblical counseling department at Dallas Theological Seminary, and I'm a licensed professional counselor and a registered play therapist. I'm sure that you've got a full plate right now. You probably always do, but especially in the past year and a half, people have a lot of needs and a lot of questions about mental health that maybe they just hadn't thought about before. People have gone through loss, loss of life, loss of jobs.

They've seen their kids either with special needs or not kind of fall behind because of lack of resources and services and things like that. So people are struggling. Some people are struggling to hang on. A lot of people are struggling with anxiety about what the world looks like, where we're going to go. Have you seen that? Like, have you seen an increase in need for mental health services over the past year and a half? Absolutely. Yeah, everybody is struggling and in a way that we've never struggled before.

Yeah. So most all of my colleagues that I work with are have waiting lists and we're all hearing from people that want to go to counseling or have questions about how to navigate such a difficult time. Yeah. And for people who maybe they can't afford to see a therapist or, they're scared or whatever, what would be your recommendation for people who find themselves struggling, but they don't even know where to start? And even if they do, maybe they, you know, they just can't access those resources. Yeah, that's a great question. So part of it is, I think, understanding ourselves and understanding how God created us, that we have a certain level of capacity

and sometimes that capacity shifts and ebbs and flows. And right now we all have diminished capacity because we have extra things on our plate, we're maybe doing different things with schooling, we're working from home. And so part of it is understanding that capacity decreases, our self-care has to increase. And so understanding what is life-giving to us

and what actually helps us thrive. So I always go back to the acronym Halt, hungry, angry, lonely, tired. Those are four pillars of our well-being. So how are you doing with nutrition? Are you getting adequate nutrients in your diet? Are you eating enough? Are you eating the right amounts of food?

Angry, how are you doing with your emotions? Are you allowing yourself time to process those? Do you have an outlet? Do you have a good friend that you can share with, a spouse, parents, whoever that is? Lonely, we're creative for connection. So God made us to be in relationship with other people. And when we don't have access to that, we really struggle. And the pandemic has caused us to really have to reassess how we connect with people because of restrictions that we live under now.

So people tend to isolate when they struggle. And that's the time we need resources in our community the most. So reaching out with friends, going on walks. If you can't get together in person, can you have, can you FaceTime? Can you have a phone call? Just something to be connecting with other people and then tired. So fatigue is a big thing. And when we are so stressed and under extra pressure, it makes us more tired.

So we need to give more time to sleep. And it's challenging because there's more on our plates, but we really have to up our game of taking good care of ourselves. Yeah. And there are a couple questions I have within that. One of them is, can you differentiate between the self-care that seems to be in the non-Christian world, sometimes synonymous with selfishness? very, I think, unhelpful, you know, post that we maybe see on influencers pages about cutting people out of your life as soon as they don't serve you or they don't make you happy or doing whatever makes you happy no matter how it affects other people, no matter the cost versus what it looks

like to take care of yourself in a biblical way. Because I think, you know, there is a lot of confusion around that. And as Christians, we want to make sure that we are differentiating between those things in a way that is in a way that is gospel driven. So can you explain that? Yeah, so I have lots of thoughts there. So I always like to look back at the life of Christ when he was on earth and look at how he lived because he was fully God and fully man at the same time. So he had all of the physical experiences that we have minus the sin. So he had to sleep, and there were lots of times where we probably a lot more than this, but the times that we do see in scripture that are recorded, that he was off by himself,

one, sleeping and attending to his physical need, and also spending time with his heavenly father. So we can look at that and know that that is absolutely going to be something that's Christ-like, is that we're going to have to do that. We don't have an option. Right. But he also, and this is something that actually my boss at DTS taught me, he said, you know, Andy, Jesus didn't heal everyone he came into contact with. And he, we don't know why, and we don't know who necessarily he didn't heal. But the principle behind that for us is that we're not called to help everybody all the time.

Now, we are called to steward our resources well. And there are times where we do have to give out of an abundance or give. out of our overflow of our heart and love on others well. And that means, you know, maybe we do something a little bit more for someone that, and we're fighting that selfishness. But sometimes it means that it's not our role to step in and help others. So that's a big part of it that I think about as well. Also, I think kind of that cancel culture, like cutting people out of your life,

there is a time where people can be dangerous and toxic, but I think it's really useful to learn how to live in relationship with people that you don't always agree with. Yeah. Because, I mean, if my husband and I stopped being in relationship every time we disagreed on something, we wouldn't be married anymore. Yeah. And I don't think that's how God intended based on what I see in scripture. Right. And so part of it is when we practice being in relationship with people that we don't always see eye to eye with,

we get to practice generosity and grace and mercy and see what it's like to to have to navigate those difficult waters of okay I see this differently than you do but I can still love you because you are you're also an image bearer so I think there's there's a balance to that and again there are people that are not going to be safe they're not going to be good for us and so we do have to set up appropriate boundaries with certain people, but the people that disagree, that's just a given. And I think now we're seeing that a lot more because even within families, this is something that I'm seeing in the literature and hearing from a lot of people is there's so much contention in families because people disagree on politics or whatever.

Everything, politics, vaccines, masking. You know, it goes beyond like, where do we spend Thanksgiving and Christmas? Now it's just gotten really heated. So being able to practice. us, okay, how can we still be generous with each other and maybe still hold to our values, but navigate how can we still be in relationship? And sometimes that means we have to give a little bit and we have to be flexible and allow other people to maybe get more of our time or less of our time. And I have more questions about that relationship piece, but going back to what you were saying about the importance of rest, the importance of doing things that I think you used the word

life-giving that are refreshing to us. You're saying that it's part of as Christians reflecting the life of Christ, who we see hungered and thirsted for water, and he met his own needs. He had to rest. He had to sleep. And I also think of the fact that we are made in the image of God. And even though God himself doesn't actually need rest, he did. He did. choose to rest on the seventh day, almost to just set that example for us that God worked. And even though he doesn't, you know, he doesn't expend energy in the same way that we do as finite beings, he still rested on that seventh day. And he created us to need that as well.

And so I just encourage people when they may be scared of, oh, you know, should I take a break or is that just selfish? Well, to think about, okay, well, am I resting? in a way that God made me to need rest because he did. He made us to need leisure. He made us to need pleasure. He made us to need rest and sleep and all of those things. So I do think it's important for Christians to not conflate what God made us to need with selfishness and the narcissism that I do think that we sometimes see in the secular self, so-called self-love world. And then going into what you said about relationships and setting, you know, healthy boundaries without just

cutting everyone out of your life that doesn't agree with you. I'd love to hear you talk more about that because right now I just see a lack of true deep connection, like even within the church, even if you're someone who goes to Sunday school and you feel like you have people around you, I think a lot of people feel, and I felt like this in the past year and a half that's outside of my family, sometimes it feels like I'm lacking true, deep, consistent connection with, you know, with people I go to church with and things like that. So can you talk about that? I don't even really know what my question is, but I'm sure other people feel the same way. Like, do you see that lack of genuine connection? And how do you think it's affecting people? Well, I think some people,

because we're all different. We all have different personalities and temperament. So I think about, like, my husband is a pursuer. I'm not necessarily a person. I'm not necessarily a pursuer. I'm very receptive and willing, but he's, he is a person that takes people to coffee and to lunch. And after a hard year, he's been exhausted. And he told me the other day, he was like, I'm just tired of pursuing. I think a lot of people who were accustomed to being pursuers, and that's their personality, they're just worn out. And so the rest of us who are more receivers, if we have energy, this is a great time to step up. I think sometimes, too, we're so afraid of, of maybe someone not reciprocating or of rejection,

that it keeps us from putting ourselves out there. And so I always try to remind myself and remind other people that it feels really good when someone wants to spend time with you. When someone pursues you, that feels really nice. And so maybe put yourself out there and say, hey, I would love to just take you to coffee or I'd love to go walk with you. I spend a lot of time walking with friends because that just seems like we can kill two birds with one stone.

We're exercising, we're spending time together. So if you're more accustomed to being on the receiving end, and that's not your personality, maybe push yourself a little bit and pursue some people. If you're more exhausted and you're having a hard time rallying to really continue in that pattern of pursuing, maybe just picking one person or being vulnerable enough to say, hey, I'm just really struggling. and I just, I want to spend time with you. I want to pursue this relationship, but I'm really hurting. Could you just check in on me once a week?

I also, I saw something somewhere along the way that it says, check in on your strong friends. They're struggling to. I think the people that either process grief differently, and we don't see it on the outside or they're, you know, the people that are high capacity, we forget that they're struggling to. And so even checking on them. I make it a point that if the Lord brings someone to mind, then there's an intention of why they came to my mind.

And so I'll send a text or a Marco Polo and say, hey, I was just, I was thinking about you. I don't know what your day is like, but I want you to know that I just said a prayer for you. Yeah. And so some of it's that, those tiny connections. I think, too, because this season is so fraught with anxiety, anxiety wears us down and makes us exhausted emotionally and physically. so we don't have as much capacity. So being able to maybe not think on a big scale of, you know, I want to have this family over and we're going to get together and want to get the kids together, little things like

text, FaceTime, small things are just as meaningful as big connections. Right, right. And I think also maybe being the one to dig deeper in a relationship, like if you've had a friendship, with someone that has kind of remained superficial for a long time, but you're longing for some kind of deeper, deeper friendship, one where you're maybe encouraging one another, spiritually like you sat or really talking about the real things that you're struggling with. Having the courage to, like, be the person to dig deeper.

It can be hard because even if you know, like, you like each other as friends, you're like, oh, does this person, do they really want to talk to me about that kind of thing? Or maybe they think I'm prying. And so I think that takes also a little bit of courage, too, not just to be the vulnerable person, but to seek vulnerability and other people. Because, I mean, that's what vulnerable means. Like, you're allowing yourself the possibility of becoming hurt. And I think a lot of people, I don't know if social media has added to this, which is funny

because we have so much of our life on display. And yet it seems like we're scared of actual authenticity at the same time. Is that something that you've noticed? Absolutely. Yeah, I think social media and technology is great, but it has a dark side just like anything. And part of the dark side is we can put stuff out there. And then I think a lot of times we put stuff out on social media

because we want connection. But that's not going to give us probably the connection we truly want because we were created to connect like this, face to face, physically being able to communicate with each other. also we're putting stuff out there and I think we're expecting people to respond in one way and then if they respond in a way that doesn't meet our expectations we have this disappointment but it's not happening in real time so that we can we can stop and say like hey when you said that that really hurt my feelings so like with these interpersonal connections whether it's by phone

or physically being in each other's presence we can say things like hey let's back up. Like when you said this, right, that really hurts. And I don't think you meant it this way, but I just need you to know that. And so social media doesn't give us that opportunity. Right. And I think we use it a lot of times to try to short circuit or get that need met. And it ends up doing more damage than good. Yeah. I think that's, I think that's probably true. And going back to what you said about anxiety. When I asked people on Instagram, okay, what would you ask a mental health professional if you had them in front of you? And almost every question was about anxiety. They're anxious about a variety of things. They're anxious about the future. They're anxious about what's going on right now

with all the different political disagreements that are here and coming down the pipeline for a whole host of reasons. People are anxious. What do you know, what do you know, about anxiety, how the brain processes anxiety, what is it? And what can people do to not be consumed by it? Yeah. So, well, one thing to understand about the brain is the part of our brain that's responsible for linear logical processes that helps us, we know a kid's developing when they start to talk because their left side of their brain is starting to come online. And it helps us know how to do things like follow a recipe, change a flat tire. It is also the part of the brain that does not like ambiguity and uncertainty. And so ambiguity and uncertainty breed anxiety. And we were never

created to live in that level of uncertainty for a prolonged period of time. So God, how he made our bodies is just, it's perfect. It's amazing. And he created us so that when we sense imminent threat or imminent danger, even if it's real or perceived, our bodies will go into a process where we will protect ourselves. We will do everything we need to do to stay safe. And in that moment, it all makes sense and it's all really adaptive. That was meant to be acute. It was never meant to be a chronic state. We have long passed the acute stage. It's kind of like thinking back when we thought this was all going to be over by Easter. That was our acute stage and we passed it a long time ago. Right. Right. Now we're in this chronic stage and we grasp at anything that will help us

diminish that uncertainty so that it diminishes our anxiety. I always think of anxiety as it's like the hamster on the will in your brain. You just can't get it to stop. So what the left side of the brain will do to diminish that is we will fill in the blanks of a story we don't understand. And kids do this. We do this regardless of age. This is why when anybody dies, the first question we ask is, well, how? Like, there's got to be a good reason. If there's not a good reason, that's even worse.

And so we subconsciously and consciously do this. We will plug in answers to those blanks of, you know, why, well, why can't I go to school without wearing a mask or why did my best friend die or why did this happen? and we usually plug in false answers because it's easier to have something that's not true than to live in the ambiguity and the anxiety. And so I think it's really helpful because we are, we're meaning-making creatures and we're storytellers. And we see that God communicates through us to us through story. That's what scripture is.

It's all couched in a narrative. And so part of what can be helpful with easing anxiety is to tell our stories. And that's that vulnerability piece you talked about with friends is just kind of putting yourself out there and being able to tell your story of loss and say, you know, this is what it felt like when this happened. And then this happened. And that really helps us at times ease the anxiety if we can talk about it. Things get bigger, the longer they stay in our head. Just even, you know, some therapies talk about the talking cure that even just talking helps you feel better. So one is being able to tell your story.

And two, especially with kids and adolescents, I think it's really helpful for parents or anybody who is shepherding a child's heart to help them tell their story or tell the story of the circumstances. So we do a lot in our house of talking about what all this is and what all this means so that we can help monitor how our kids write this narrative and we can hopefully diminish any false truths or false narratives and fill that in. And sometimes the truth is hard. Like, one of the things we've never done is we've never wanted to lie to our kids and, and say that, like, I can't assure that I'm not going to die tomorrow. Yeah. But what I can't

assure them of is I have a really good plan in place for them. And so we talk through that. And our older two kids have been through seasons where they've been really anxious at times about what would happen to us because we've exposed them to grief and loss. But we talk through our story of, okay, so here's our plan. If something happens to mom or dad, here's what's going to happen. And here's who's going to take care of you. And, you know, your daddy sells life insurance. So you're going to be just fine because we're worth more dead than alive. But we just talk through it. Talking through what it means. So, you know, things are changing daily. So that makes it kind of hard for us to keep up with what's happening, but talking through with yourself and with your spouse

and your friends and your kids, when you start school, this is what you can expect. So I think just talking around what's happening and trying to fill in those blanks accurately can ease a lot of anxiety. Also, other things, we've, this seems counterintuitive, but what research shows is when we give a little attention to what we're feeling, especially anxiety, and say, you know, I wonder I'll ask clients or my kids, I'll say, you know, you tell me that you're feeling really anxious, tell me where you notice that feeling most in your body. And then let's give that some attention. So it's kind of like, you know, some older schools of thought when a kid was throwing a fit,

we ignore it and it'll stop. Usually the kid just gets louder. that's how feelings are. If you ignore it, they just get louder. A lot of times if we will give it attention, it tends to kind of calm and soothe that. So for myself, when I'm having an anxious day, one, I reach out to someone who I'm close with. So usually that's my husband because he's my best friend or I'll call one of my best girlfriends and say, hey, this is just a rough day. And And then I'll give that time to just kind of release as I talk to them. If it's with my kids or one of my clients, I want to give them that time and give that attention

and say, you know, what's that like for you to feel anxious? When do you notice it most during the day? So that's sometimes helpful too, is if we can pinpoint when we feel the most anxious, sometimes there's strategies we can use or things we can do to combat that. So sometimes it's around, so one of my kids just gets really anxious about the unknown, like most everybody, but it just shows up really verbally. And so when she's really anxious and she's like, what's going to happen when this happens? I know she needs to go through that story five or six times,

and she needs to know that she has resources to handle that. So we'll talk through like here's what's at your disposal. So if this happens, here's what you do. And if that doesn't work, here's what you do. And so it's all about talking about those strategies. Also sometimes we can look at with ourselves and with kids that maybe it's at the end of the day where we feel most anxious. And at the end of the day, you're probably most tired.

So maybe you need to back off of some activities that happen at that time of the day. Now, obviously, like, going back to the selfishness piece, there are things I can't back off of being like, I'm choosing to give up bedtime. You guys, good luck. But I can say, you know, that's a really stressful time a day for me. So I'm not going to plan to prep for my next class right before bedtime or right after bedtime because that's not going to be good for us. So looking at what's happening, if it's a time of day where someone's really hungry, maybe they need to have. Maybe they need to have a snack during that time. Or maybe that child needs a little more holding or comforting. You just want to look at what's going on surrounding that because sometimes it gives you clues about

things you can do to approach it. I also think there's a time where we need to limit the amount of exposure we have to things that are stressful. Now, we can't, I think we need to be good consumers of information and news. And part of that is knowing what is the threshold that we can. can healthily manage. So I remember in the spring of 2020, like I was just looking through Twitter way too much and Facebook and Instagram. And I was panicked by the time I would lay down to go to bed

and my heart was pounding. And so I knew that I needed to stop doing that. So one of the things I use is like a scripture prayer app. And so I started doing that at the end of the day. And sometimes I'd listen to it. sometimes I'd read it so that the last thing I heard was about God's faithfulness and goodness. Right. And it seems easy and kind of cheesy, but it really is powerful.

Yeah. So making sure we're not exposing ourselves too much. I am going through a training, and one of the clinicians said this weekend, we were really never designed to hear the news about the entire world. Right. We're designed to take in the news of our community. Yeah. And so I think it's important that we know these things because we can pray for other people.

We can be actively involved in a good way. But at times we do have to take a step back and know that. Right. Well, the news makes us feel, and we talk about this on this podcast a lot, that it makes us feel like we have to be omniscient, that we have to be omnipresent, that we have to be omnipotent. So we have to be everywhere, know everything, care about everything, do something about everything, fix everything. I certainly struggle with that. And that's part of, you know, my job is knowing what's going on in the news. But it certainly does get overwhelming to bear that burden, especially when people are thinking about what's the world going to look like for my kids.

I have to do everything to make sure that it ends up a certain way or doesn't end up a certain way. And the fact of the matter is is that we're not God. We're not everywhere. We can't care about everything. and it doesn't mean that you lack compassion just because you don't have the capacity to care about everyone and everything at once. God didn't make us to be able to do that anytime we go outside of God's design for us or try to extend ourselves beyond our finite nature.

We get really exhausted and it's also like super depressing because at the end of every day you're like, oh, I wanted to fix all these things. I didn't do anything to fix them. and I'm a failure and it just kind of leads to this cycle, I think, for a lot of people. So when people find themselves in that cycle, whether it's about, you know, carrying the weight of the world because of the news or whether it's just about feeling lonely or whatever problem that they're dealing with that is making them in that anxious and kind of a depressive state, when they find themselves in that and they just feel like, okay, I can't

get out. I feel like I've, you know, I've prayed, I've done all the things that. I'm supposed to do to make myself feel better and they still just don't. What are some tools? What can they do to try to lift themselves out of it or is it just kind of a waiting game for some people? There is a certain threshold where professional help will be really necessary and needed. There are resources. I know that therapy is expensive, but there are resources.

that are reduced rates that work with people and their financial resources. Part of it, again, is diminishing the activities that will drain us. When we're already drained, we need to cut back on those things. So it's okay. I mean, just you said it so beautifully that God never designed us to save the world because he didn't design us as God. We're humans. He does that.

Exactly. And so he has already saved the world. And I think thinking about to, so this keeps coming to mind a couple of years ago, before we had kids, like I was fine. I was like, I'm going, you know, to live as Christ and to die is gain. I was ready to leave this earth at any time. Once we had kids, they just really tied me to this world because I love them. And I don't think anybody can do as good a job as my husband and I can raising them.

And so I was just panicked at the thought that one of us would die. And I remember the Lord just kind of impressing upon me and saying, you know, Andy, that is so sweet and tender of you that you love them so much. But I loved them first and I loved them most. And I will do what I see fit in their life. And I will take care of them no matter what happens to you. And so I think some of it is really looking at what is the truth that we're putting into our minds as well.

Yeah. So sometimes I think it's important to listen to what our body does tell us because God created it very intelligently. And there are systems within us, within our brain that signal that we're not doing okay and we need to pay attention to those. And at times we need to be careful to what lies. We could also be believing. The lies that might be that, you know, I have to do everything or to slow down that

means failure or if I don't serve on every committee at my kids school, then I'm not a good mom. We really need to assess what we're believing and what beliefs drive what we're doing. Because sometimes we let that really take over and that can really, really make us feel poorly. There are seasons where we need to sit back and we need to allow others to minister to us and to recognize that we just don't have all the capacity that we have at other seasons. There will be another time in place where our capacity will increase. This just isn't that time. Yeah.

And so paying attention to those basic daily living skills, are you sleeping enough? Adults need seven to nine hours of sleep every night. And we are overwhelmingly sleep deprived as a nation for sure. again nutrition is is a big deal like when we feel anxious and depressed we tend to either overeat or under eat so we need to pay attention to what's happening happening there and then at times we do need to know that it's okay to seek professional help and at times even medication can be useful having a referral to see a physician that that may say you know medication is not going to get rid of the stress and it's not going to help someone, it's not going to do away with the trauma or the

grief, but it can give us the capacity to process those things well. Right. And can you talk to parents who might have a teen who is struggling specifically because of the past year and a half? Maybe they were isolated for a long period of time, maybe even, you know, just the lack of normalcy, no matter someone stance on masks or virtual learning or all of that, the lack of normalcy, even if you live in an area that is pretty normal, just seeing how things aren't the same as they were in 2019, like that wears on people. I would imagine that it especially wears on teenagers who, you know, without their say-so, their entire world.

And young kids, too, their entire world has been turned upside down. A lot of kids are really struggling. They're more online than they were even before all of them. of this. And parents see that they're struggling. Maybe they don't have access to a counselor. I know of one woman who messaged me who said, I know my daughter needs to see a counselor, but everywhere has waiting lists right now. What do I do? So speak to that mom or dad who just so badly wants to get their kid out of this rut that they're in. They just can sense that they're depressed and anxious and all of that, carrying the way to the world. What does that parent do? How do they

help their child. Yeah, so part of it is understanding what's normative adolescent development. So neurologically, our brains don't finish forming until about 25. So we're basically teenagers until our mid-20s. So in that process of the brain changing and forming, adolescence is a huge time of brain development. And it's kind of like being under construction when there's roadwork. and it's going to be great once it's done, but it is a huge disaster in the moment. And so what it causes teens to do is that's why we see the already emotional irregularity

or the ups and downs, which is really common in adolescence. We can see black and white thinking, although teenagers cognitively should be kind of shifting to where they can do some abstract thinking, but it's not a light switch. It doesn't just flip right on and flip right off. It's kind of an oscillating back and forth,

until they can fully get there. Also, they're going to need a lot more sleep, and we see that their sleep habits change. So their circadian rhythm shifts. In children and in adults, our circadian rhythm is, we're up earlier in the morning, six to seven,

and our brains tend to shut off about nine to ten. In adolescence, that shifts entirely, and it's really inconvenient because the world doesn't shift really. adolescents, they don't really kind of wake up, come online until about nine or ten in the morning, and they're up until about 12 to 2 at night, potentially. So, and I think it's the recommended as like 11 hours of sleep a night for adolescents. Wow.

Which I'm sure most are not getting, not during the week anyway, maybe on Saturdays, but. Right, right. And the thing that I see the most, and I saw this before the pandemic in my practice, kids and adolescents are just over programmed. They have way too much on their plate. More is not better. You're talking about school, extracurriculars, not even just what they're seeing, not just social media and things like that. Right.

So that was before the pandemic. Yeah. So they are like this is just added an extra heaping of stress. So sometimes as parents, we really need to look at just the basics of their schedule. Now that's challenging during this season. if they're going to school online, which is not my favorite, because they need that social interaction. Online learning is way more exhausting. So if they're online, that's taking more of their psychological and emotional and physical resources. They do need those extracurriculars to connect

with their peers. And so, again, more isn't better, though. So you want to look at, are they getting enough social contact with friends. So maybe as a parent, that looks like they need to be going to their extracurricular in person. Or maybe they need to add something if they're not doing anything. They don't need to be at home all day, especially if they're not going to school in person. So looking at the right balance of activities, is it too much or is it too little? We're looking for the just right fit. If they were tired before the pandemic already because they're over programmed, they need to way cut back. Again, more is not better. Somewhere along the way we've bought into this lie that if our kids don't have all the right experiences, they're not going to be well-functioning

adults. That's not true. So we didn't grow up in that era and we're okay. I mean, for the most part, or at least functioning and have paying jobs. So we don't need to buy into that lie that they need to be over programmed. Also with teenagers, because they do need that sleep. And as their brains are changing, they sense there was a study that looked at adolescents, they tend to see a neutral face as aggressive. So whereas kids and adults see a neutral face as neutral. And part of that is just to ready them to long.

so that they're accustomed to looking out for threat because they're about to be out on their own. So there can be a lot of miscommunication between parents and teens because teens feel like their parents are angry because their brains are perceiving an angry face when it's neutral. And so parents just understanding, whoa, you're under construction and it's going to be great. You just need a lot more help during this season. Also, kids during adolescence are going to be. to individuate and during that individuation process there's going to be this push pool of I need independence and while teenagers do need increased independence they also still need a lot of scaffolding

from their parents and from helping adults and so one thing I would tell that mom there's a ton of waiting lists but there's also the mom and so one thing I would say is hey when do you guys connect during the week. And not to add more to the mom's plate, because I know she's probably exhausted and doing the best she can with what she has, but maybe even saying, hey, would you, would you want to go for a walk with me? Or would you want to, you know, I'm going to work outside in the yard or I'm going to go to the grocery store, looking for times to increase that connection. And it doesn't have to be this big like, hey, let's have a heart to heart and talk about where you're suffering. But hey, let's just be side to side and do life together.

I'm a huge believer too in physical touch. So attachment and attachment research is the psychological word for what God calls relationship in the Bible. And we know from the very beginning of Genesis that God created us for connection. Part of connection and healthy attachment is positive touch. And we focus a lot on that in infancy. So when we talk about, you know, the first thing we want to do when a baby is born, is we want them skin to skin with their parent.

And we want to have a lot of that good positive touch because that fuels that attachment. Attachment helps us navigate the storms of life. It helps us know that we're not alone. It regulates our emotionality. It regulates our heart rate. It's kind of crazy all the things that attachment does. It's just as important for adolescence, and we forget that.

Yeah. So even as, and, you know, like I have, my kids are still relatively young and small. And as they grow, I'll have to consciously remember, like, I need to pull my adolescent daughter close and I need to put my arm around her. And so there's so much that happens with positive touch. Endorphins are released in our brain. It builds our connectedness. And so I would encourage parents increase the amount of time that you are physically giving. that attachment touch to your kid.

One thing, again, I love technology, but it can be our biggest enemy. I see so much with parents and families. We're so connected to our device that we're not giving good eye-to-eye contact. So that's another building block when we look at that infancy attachment relationship with little babies. Little babies just suck us in. They're cute. And so we do what's called mutual gazing.

And mutual gazing is when we're building. attachment. You know. I know exactly. I'm like, oh yeah, like this morning. I'm just like staring. Yeah. That makes sense for us when they're a little bitty and they're cute. They're, they're cuter when they're little than they're when they're big adolescence. But one of the things that we can remember to do is like when we're talking to really anyone, but especially our kids, put down our devices. And like I'm talking to myself here that, I mean, my kids will come up and ask me a question and I have to consciously say, like, remind. myself, Andy, put down your phone.

I know. It's so hard. I do the same thing. Especially, you know, when they're, when they're babies, you do do that mutual gazing, but also at the same time, like, they're not doing anything. So sometimes I'm, you know, on my phone when they're just laying there. And I'm like, my phone is like, you know, I mean, it's like blocking our connection. And I have to consciously think, too, okay, I don't, I don't want that.

I don't want that to be, you know, what characterizes me, mom's all. always sucked into her phone when I'm trying to connect with her or something like that. And so I definitely think it's a conscious effort that has to be taken in all stages. But it seems like, you know, especially teens too because they need that example or else they're sucked into their phones. And can you talk about that? Like the effect of social media on kids' brains and what you've seen. I know you said there's a lot of benefits to social media.

I feel the same way, even probably for teens. but I imagine that it affects kids' development. If your brain isn't fully functioning or fully developed yet, I should say, until you're 25, then I imagine the hormones that are released and everything, the social interactions that are caused by social media probably have a big effect on young people's development. So can you talk about what that is and how parents kind of approach that in a healthy way with their kids? Yeah.

Well, I mean, and you just said it. It starts with us as parents that we. monitor our own intake and we're modeling really well. Yeah, for teenagers, so as adults with fully formed brains, I struggle on social media because I can see like someone may post something that I don't agree with and I get frustrated or maybe I didn't get invited to something and my feelings are hurt. Yeah. And I can think through those things and I can talk myself through those and think, you know, it's okay. I don't have to be invited to everything or they didn't do that maliciously. It's hard as an adult. It's astronomically difficult for a teenager. And so at times,

parents need to limit their kids social media intake because they're just not, you know, like we would limit their access to a car as a new driver. We want to limit their access because they're kind of like a new driver with social media. And so I think instituting times, so I'm a big believer in that it doesn't need to go to bed with them for a long time. Also just because it messes with sleep and they really need sleep. Being able to talk through it and to ask questions of your kids. There's great books. There's a great book called How to Talk so your kids will listen,

how to listen so your kids will talk. And so asking questions like, hey, you know, what did you see on social media today that stuck out to you? So asking pointed questions. not to interrogate them, but just to understand them. Yeah. And to say things like, well, did you see anything that really bothered you? Or did you see anything that hurt your feelings?

Did you see anything that inspired you? Was there something that you saw that just made you feel really good? Yeah, made you laugh, something like that, yeah. Exactly. And then I think, I think meal times need to be sacred. So I'm a big believer in that. And I'm a big believer too. I want to be open to everybody's viewpoint.

but that's something I'm a stickler on. That's the hill I'm willing to die on, is that there needs to be times as a family where there are not any devices present. And so having a rule that when we go, when we go out to eat a meal together, when we eat in our home, everybody's device is put up.

It's a device free time. So much research talks about the benefit of meal time or kids and adolescents. I think there's one study that talks about how it's related to national merit scholars. Yeah. The amount of meals that you have as a family. That's interesting. It is. And meals are really easy. So, I mean, it's, they're not easy, but it's not, you don't have to pay for a professional. Yeah. You're all going to have to eat. You just got to find some time to be together. And it doesn't have to be every night.

So I really think parents need to limit that for their teenagers and teach good stewardship, but also talk about the risks. So, A lot of times we put boundaries in place for our kids, but we don't talk about why. And I think it's really important to talk about why. So like around sex education with my kids, I talk about, you know, this is what your dad and I believe because we love Jesus. And this is what science says about what it would be like if you engaged in these activities. And here's all, not all the risk factors, but here's some significant risk factors.

So with social media to say, you know, know, I notice that when I'm on social media too much, it makes me really anxious. And so I, I want you to learn how to navigate this well. And I don't want you to live with this anxious state. And I want you to be good at this when you leave my home because that's my job is to help you launch. And so talking about why we don't want to do these things, because kids want to know why. And some kids are more inquisitive and they have to know but why. Yeah. And so, giving them that answer of, well, you know, the more you do this, the more you shape your brain. So our brains are use dependent. The more we do something, the more we increase the statistical

likelihood that we will continue to do that. So the more we, you know, fall asleep looking at our phones, the more likely we will continue to do that. And it will shape us in certain ways. So what I'm hearing you say is that teens, and I think of myself as a teen, and I thought that, you know, I didn't want attention from my parents. I mean, I have a great relationship with my parents, but went through those teenage years of being like, you know, just leave me alone. I just want to be alone in my room. But the reality is what you're saying is that kids still need healthy attention,

healthy affection from their parents, focus from their parents. Even if they act like they want to push their parents away, they still need that connection. And they need the parent to know that I care about the things that you care about. what you said about even asking them about what they see on social media so that in a way that doesn't make it seem like your parents are only trying to police what you're seeing on social media, which I think it's an important role of a parent to do that because things on, you know, on the internet are terrible and you don't want your kids to see it sometimes.

But also feeling like, hey, I want to see that, like, I want to see that funny video that you thought was funny too. And maybe you as a parent don't think it's funny. Maybe you think it's like totally dumb. But I could definitely see how that builds a level of like trust with your kid or maybe they show you something that you then think they do not need to be seeing that. And that is though a way to talk about that and ask, you know, how does that, how does that make you feel? I think that sometimes parents, and I'm not a parent of a teenager, obviously. But it seems like from the parents I talk to and having been a teenager not that long ago, it seems like parents can kind of swing from, okay, I've got to control every aspect of my child's life because I'm afraid of what's happening.

I'm afraid of what they're seeing on social media and what their friends are telling them. So I've got to only be the police officer versus, well, I don't really think that I should have any true authority in my kid's life. I'm just going to let them figure it out as they go. I'm just kind of hands off. I'll be their buddy when they want me to be their buddy. Can you talk about maybe the struggle, if you've seen that as well, swinging from what extreme to the next and the balance that kids really need because I imagine sometimes they do need a companion to talk to, but that's not the only job of the parent. At the end of the day, it seems like kids also, whether they say so or not, need someone to say, here are the boundaries, here are the rules. Absolutely. Yeah. So I love how

you said that. There's these two polarization and parents tend to swing one to the other or maybe camp out on one side and really we want balance. So one thing you said that is probably the utmost importance is structure. So one of the reasons this season is so dysregulating for all of us is because we've lost our normalcy and our structure. Yeah. And we don't know, I mean, from day to day, we don't know what we're going to see on the news. And we don't know what, I mean, what policies are going to change or, who knows? Like, this is just a crazy time.

Yeah. But boundaries make us feel really safe. And so for kids and teens, and teens especially because we think, oh, they're like little adults, they'll be fine. They still need those boundary lines to help us, to help them feel safe. So kids and teens may say they want to be in charge, but at the end of the day, they really don't. Like at the end of the day, I don't want to know that I'm the end of all this and I'm all powerful because that is really scary. I take comfort in knowing that God will, God's in charge. I don't understand it always, but he's going to take care of things.

So teenagers really need that because it gives them a sense of security. so they need to know where the boundary lines are clearly. Also, with the policing, our parenting is so shaped by our own stuff as kids and our own stuff now. And so as parents, we do need to take a step back at times and make sure we're not parenting from a place of fear that our kids are going to turn out like we did or make the same mistakes that we did. They are their human. They are their own human beings. And they're going to make mistakes. And we're going to fail as parents.

So I think that's always a great starting point to know that we can't do this perfectly, excuse me, and that we are imperfect. And our kids are going to struggle and we're going to fail. One of the things that I think is huge when it comes to hopefully not passing on our own fears or being so scared that our kids repeat our mistakes is one being to being able to vocalize like here's here's what I'm worried will happen to my kid to your spouse or to a good friend because a lot of times they can speak truth into that and say you know like if that happens that will be okay or that's very unlikely that that would happen because they're totally not like

you they're a totally different personality also looking at the long game. So like, what do you want your kids to be like when they leave your house? And I always try to filter our parenting through that. What is the goal that we're trying to reach? And through the saying, and it's not original to me, prepare your kid for the path, not the path for your kid. We do so much parenting now, and there's so much parenting advice that steers parents to kind of clear the way for their kids. And the idea is that, you know, if it's easier, then the kid will be likely to succeed. Our brains are created in such a way that we actually grow through adversity.

Now, there is a line where it's too much adversity, but we need struggle to be able to grow. I mean, it's that, you know, I'm sure every pastor has used the illustration of the butterfly, and if it's in a cocoon and you cut it open, you actually end up killing it. Because the strength needed to break out of the cocoon is the strength needed to be able to fly. And so if someone does that for the butterfly, they die because they can't fly. Kids need a certain level of struggle. And so I'm always looking at for my kids, what is the natural struggle in this that they need to do on their own and they need to be able to function as an adult outside of my home? And so trying to balance, am I trying to over function for them because I'm afraid that they're not going to succeed or

I'm afraid of what may happen. And so if that's the case, then I need to pull back some. Or there are times that my kids just need, they need more of my help to do things because they're not capable of, you know, doing, like I've, was looking at something the other day and reading about how high schoolers that have just now launched into college, it's much more difficult for them and they're having more depression and anxiety and they're not able to maybe do all the things

that a first year freshman could do three years ago because they're living in such a difficult world and so three years ago we would tell a parent to not do certain things because that would be overreaching or overfunctioning whereas now their kids maybe need a little more help in that scaffolding. So some of it is balancing, am I overfunctioning

or do they really need the help that I could get? them. We talked about that last week because the trend that I've noticed just anecdotally is teenagers being afraid to drive, which I thought was interesting. They don't want to get their driver's license. They're scared to go off to college. They're scared to live by themselves. And now I'm a millennial. And, you know, the big joke a few years ago was millennials are still living with their parents when they're 30 years old. And I'm sure part of that was true for a variety of reasons, but, you know, as a millennial, I was super excited to get my driver's license. I would have got my driver's license if my parents would have let me as early as possible. And independence

was so exciting. I purposely went to a college far away that, you know, I didn't know anyone there for the excitement of it, just for the thrill of it, just to do something different. And I'm sure there are a lot of Generation Z people that are still doing that kind of thing. But in general, when I, you know, I posed this question, why does it seem like Generation Z is scared to drive? I got a lot feedback from Generation Z just saying, I'm fearful, which I'm like, okay, part part of that is okay, I don't necessarily want more 16-year-old drivers on the road and like maybe some parents are okay with that. But I talked to one parent who was like, okay, my kid has a job and I'm tired of taking them to their job. They're 17 years old. I have to force them to get their driver's license.

That's crazy to me. I mean, what's behind that? Why are they so much more fearful? Is it because of everything they see on social media. They just have a fear and anxiety that I don't think that we had when I was a teenager about just very normal kind of teenage young adult things. Absolutely. Rights of passage. Yeah. That I have no conceptualization of not being able, like not 180 your driver's license. That was the best part of adolescence. I think a lot of it is, and they've been called different things, snowplow parents, lawnmower parents, that clearing the path, for your kid makes them weaker. So there is a natural amount of struggle that's needed.

So, and there are times that I feel a little anxious about this, and I'm like, okay, that's my stuff. I got to live with that. My kids walk to school by themselves. Now, they're not walking miles. It's the end of our block. Our kids go out and ride bikes by themselves. And we got a bobcat situation going on.

So I'm like, watch out for the bobcats. Don't get near it and pedal fast. But some of that is really good for them. So there's a great book called Play by Dr. Stewart Brown, and he talks about how we have lost over the last generation, so for Gen Ziers especially, and for later millennials, that we don't have as much child-directed play where they can just go in free play and be able to learn how to problem solve.

Yeah. We have a lot of adult-led play. And so those are your extracurricular activities, which again, they're good in balance. But when they're overdone, what it creates is kids that don't ever have to be directive at all. And so kids need more child-directed play. Adolescents need more child-directed or adolescent-directed play so that parents are not coaching them on, okay, now do this or do this. And so that fear of the parents, I think, is seeping down to the kids.

and they don't have the natural rights of passage of, you know, going to ride on your bike, riding to a friend's house, walking to a friend's house. And now some people may live in an area where that's not going to be wise. But there are things that kids need to be able to do on their own where parents don't interfere. There was a study that Dr. Brown quoted where companies are seeing, because we're having millennials and Gen Ziers who are graduating and in the workforce, if they had a lot of adult-led activities on their resume, they probably had a great resume, but they didn't develop the necessary skill of problem-solving.

And so they make really poor employees because they can't problem-solve, you know, this happens, so how do I do this? Yeah. And so there's a balance there. Both are really important. But if we get too much of one and not enough of other, of another, we have problems. And then again, access to too much news. Again, we weren't created to take in the news of the world.

And our kids are taking those in. I also see a trend that for some reason we have this thought process that if we shelter our kids from all things that are hard, then we'll keep them from being wounded or broken or messed up. I think it's actually better to allow our kids, to be exposed in certain titrated ways, so then we can talk about those things. So like with grief and loss, I think it's really important that kids always have the opportunity to participate in grief and loss rituals.

They need to practice what it's like to go to a funeral. They need to practice what it's like to, you know, to see a body in a casket, because that will not ruin them, but the anxiety of not knowing what that's like can be way overwhelming. Also talking about difficult things that are in the media. So in our house, we talk about all the hot topics. We talk about sex. We talk about homosexuality. We talk about transgender. We talk about politics. We talk about the pandemic. And we do talk in titrated ways. We don't expose them to everything. Right. But I want them to know that, that one, I'm capable of having hard conversations because kids and adolescents intuitively know what their parents can and cannot handle,

and they won't take hard things to them that they know they can't handle. Two, I want to be able to speak in what my value system is. Right. And I want to unpack those things of, you know, this is what your daddy and I believe, and we believe it because of this. And it's based on our our biblical worldview. And so I think it's useful to talk about things where somewhere along the way, we thought that if we expose them to stuff to anything, then it would ruin them. Yeah. But really talking about it.

Now, again, there are things that kids don't need to be exposed to. So, I mean, we talk about pornography, but we certainly would not expose them to that. No, yeah, in an age-appropriate way. And that's the thing about parents being the primary. faith trainers and the primary vessel through which kids are getting that information because you know your kids best. You know their individual personalities, their individual maturity levels. Maybe one of your kids is way more mature than people their age or maybe they're way less mature. That's the problem with, you know, allowing any other entity, even if it's, you know,

a teacher that you love, even if it's a Sunday school teacher that you love, those can all be very good influences in your kid's life, but they are not to be the primary, the primary teacher of values, because they just don't know your kid and they don't love your kid like you do. They're not as interested in their well-being as you are, even if they love them in their own way. And I think that's something that maybe this generation of parents will wake up to that in past generations, maybe parents were more like, you know what, I don't really need to talk theology and worldview issues with my kids, they're learning that at school, or their Christian school, or their Sunday school, or, you know, their friend's parents, whatever, they'll figure it out

when they go to college or something like that. Now we're realizing, okay, well, kids are already being exposed to this. They're being exposed to it at school. They're being exposed to it with their friends or their friends' older siblings. They're being exposed to it on social media. So they're already going to have questions, and it doesn't do them any service for us to say, well, you know, we don't want to talk about that. You'll kind of figure it out. They will figure it out, but it might not be based on the same values that we want them to have, right? Right. Or like, I don't want a 12 year old teaching my kid about sex. Exactly. Because they're 12. Right. And I know they're going to talk about it. So if I talk about it beforehand and I can say,

okay, look, here's the deal. Here's the deal. And I have, like, I know what actually happens because I'm 40. And I can tell you all things and then I think it helps our kids know that hey mom can handle that like so when your friend does bring this up to you and they're like well what is that like they know they can come talk to me yeah yeah I think you're so right that like hopefully this generation as we raise kids up will know that it's okay to talk about things exposure doesn't mean harm always and I think it just creates an atmosphere of we can have hard conversations that hopefully down the line. I don't think that out of my three kids, they, I mean, maybe one of them will be really similar in all of our beliefs, but there will for sure be one that is different than us. And so I want them to

know that difference doesn't mean our relationship ends. And so if I can model, here's how we have hard conversations and here's how we talk about things that are hard, then when they are adults, we can still love each other and be in relationship and maybe disagree on some things. Yeah. And know that that doesn't ruin the relationship. Yeah. It probably deepens it. Yeah.

Because we can do hard things and be respectful and love each other in the process. So you can start modeling that from a very early age. You don't have to wait until they're adults to start having those hard conversations. Can you just leave us on a final note of encouragement for people that are feeling anxious themselves? parents that are trying to walk through this with their kids. I know a lot of people are feeling the weight of the world right now with everything going on, both personally, politically. So just, I guess, what's your edification in general for people who are struggling with all of this? Yeah. So the thing that I repeat to myself often is when we talk about one of, I think,

the most important thing with development is attachment or relationship. And we want kids to have what call a secure attachment style, which means they experience their main caregivers, their mom and dad, or whoever it is, as secure, as safe, as being seen by them, and as stable. So to do that, you just have to be good enough most the time. And statistically, that pans out to about 30 to 50% of the time. So if we can be good enough most of the time, then we're going to do a really good job. And then the thing that I just marvel at and how God created us is research shows that with attachment breaks. So when I rupture the relationship, so I say something that's rude or hateful, or if I hurt someone's feelings, or if I'm rude to my kid, if I go back and if I make amends and I say, hey, Emerson, sweet girl, when I said that to you, I was really rude, that was me. That was nothing about you.

Would you consider forgiving me? our relationship is actually stronger when I make the repair than if I had never messed up in the first place. And so somehow in God's infinite wisdom, he knew that we were going to be fallen and finite and we were going to constantly have to make repair in our relationships because we constantly messing them up. And so we made us so that every time that we repair, we are stronger than if we had never had to repair at all. I think that can really help people who feel like they have to control everything and create perfect environments for themselves and for their kids in order for their kids to succeed. That was very comforting to me. I certainly am someone

who would want to control all factors to make sure that things go perfectly for my kids. And it's a natural instinct because you love them so much. But I heard another psychologist say a few years ago that you don't have, you only have, especially when they get older, you only have so much control over whether or not your kids are safe, but there's a lot that you can do to make sure that your kids are strong. Now, obviously, ensuring safety for your kids, especially when they're young, is very important in a lot of ways. But building strength alongside that, especially as the safety factor gets less and less in your control as a parent, that is a reassurance in itself. I have to remind myself of that all the time. So thank you so much.

Thank you for your encouragement. I know people are going to get a lot out of this. I think you said you don't really do social media. Is there any way that they can kind of follow your work? Yeah, I do it like every once in a while. Yeah. So I'm on Twitter and Facebook. Okay. And I think Instagram. Okay. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. Yeah. Thanks so much. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself.

On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.