Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 480 | Better Than ‘Be the Bridge:’ Biblical Unity | Guest: Monique Duson

Episode Date: August 31, 2021

Today we're talking to Monique Duson, founder of the Center for Biblical Unity, about issues like racism and critical race theory in the church. It turns out that progressive Christians, claiming to be working toward "racial reconciliation," are misinterpreting the scriptures that motivate them. We also discuss how the Left's hyper-focus on the relationship between white and black people can actually end up in tokenism and exclusion of Christians of other races, ages, and economic backgrounds. --- Today's Sponsors: Annie's Kit Clubs are a great way to build lasting memories with your kids while encouraging their creativity. Go to AnniesKitClubs.com/ALLIE & save 75% off your first kit! Good Ranchers delivers their American craft beef & better than organic chicken right to your door, individually wrapped, vacuum sealed, & ready to grill! Go to GoodRanchers.com/ALLIE or use code 'ALLIE' at checkout to save $20 off & free express shipping. --- Show Links: Center for Biblical Unity 'Reconciled' Curriculum: https://bit.ly/3mOJTHF --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Tuesday. We have got a treat for you today. Today I have my friend Monique Dusson on from Center for Biblical Unity.

She is awesome. And her partner in business is also awesome, Krista. and they do so much in bringing biblical clarity to conversations about justice and race and racism. We have heard a lot of messages coming from professing Christians over the past year about what it looks like to reconcile the races. And yet a lot of these messages simply are not based in truth. They're not based in fact. And they're also not based in the gospel.

And she is on a mission. they are on a mission to change that and to make sure that churches are looking to scripture when it comes to this issue of unity. And I am so very thankful, so very thankful for the insight, the wisdom that she gives. I'm going to link the new curriculum that they have written in the description of this podcast. And I didn't get to talk about to this particular subject with her. I've already recorded the interview. but they are getting heavily censored on social media when they are trying to share their stuff.

And you can look at their curriculum. You can follow Center for Biblical Unity on Instagram and you will see that they are extremely gracious, extremely level-headed and extremely biblical in everything that they say. And that last one, I am sure, is the reason why Facebook won't even let them advertise their curriculum. And so I am asking you, especially after you listen to this interview, to please go to their website to support them, to purchase this curriculum, to send this episode to your pastor, to say, hey, we should get on board with this. We should look at this curriculum or get your

Bible study to do it. It's a five-week curriculum. Get people in your neighborhood to go through it together. I really think that this can be a game changer. I think that they are doing wonderful, wonderful, godly, glorifying work. And if you want to help change the culture of your church, of your friend group, and send conversations about race and justice into a productive and biblical direction, whereas maybe right now you're feeling a lot of tension on this subject with the people that you know, I highly recommend Monique, Krista, Center for Biblical Unity, and this particular curriculum that they've worked really hard on and have just published. So go to the description, the link in the description to this podcast to go ahead and purchase that.

But super excited for you to listen to this conversation. She is full of wisdom and grace as always. Without further ado, here is Monique Dousan. Monique, thank you so much for joining us again. It's been a while since you've been on Relatable. Can you remind people who may not know who you are and what you do? Yes, I am Monique Dusan and I am the co-founder of the Center for Biblical Unity. my co-founder, Chris DeBontriger, and I founded the Center for Biblical Unity back in February of 2021.

And it is a place where we truly believe in one race, one people, and one savior. And we exist to have safe and saying conversations about race, justice, and unity. That's just us. That's just y'all. And I love what y'all do. I've been on y'all's show before. You and Chris are just so fun. You have such edifying and joyful conversations about a subject that is really serious.

and really kind of stresses a lot of people out and confuses a lot of people, especially the last year, talking about critical race theory, racial reconciliation, what's the role of the church in all of this? And you guys developed a curriculum talking about the values that you just listed. Can you talk about the development of that curriculum and what it is? Yes. So we have a six-week study called Reconciled. And in that six-week study, we literally lead. people through the scriptures on what the word says about our reconciliation as believers and on unity.

So we start out in week one looking at the ministry of reconciliation. What is it? Is it racial reconciliation? You know, I think many pastors or leaders put forward this idea of racial reconciliation based on the verse in 2 Corinthians 5. And in doing so, I think what we can sometimes do is lead people astray into this ministry of works almost. And so we really debunk that myth and say, hey, look, this is the ministry of reconciliation is to reconcile sinful hearts back to God. And how do we walk in unity? So then we look at the rest of, you know, the next five weeks, we say, okay, now if we are reconciled because of things like Ephesians, the words that come to us in Ephesians, how do we live out unity with one another as brothers and sisters? And so it's five

more weeks of looking at how do we walk out unity? You know, as brothers and sisters, brothers and sisters have disagreements. We don't always land at the same place. But scripture does give us the rules of engagement to participate with one another as family. So that's what we're looking at. Right. And I want to read, I think the passage that you're talking about in Ephesians is Ephesians to 13 through 15, I believe. I'll read it and you can correct me if I'm wrong. But now in Christ Jesus, you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ, for he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances that he might create in himself

one new man in place of the two, so making peace. So can you talk about the difference in that unity that Ephesians 2 is very clear we gain through Christ. And then going back to the beginning of the chapter of Ephesians 2, it lays out the two categories that exist essentially in the world from a biblical perspective, dead and sin and alive in Christ. All of those who are alive in Christ are reconciled no matter our background already because of Christ. And so what does it look like kind of what you described is the erroneous perspective that some Christians are taking on of racial reconciliation versus walking in unity as people who are already brothers and sisters through Christ. Well, I think the erroneous position is based in 2 Corinthians 5 that, you know,

we've now been given the ministry of reconciliation. But what they do is they say that we've now been given this ministry of racial reconciliation. If I'm supposed to reconcile, well, obviously that means racial reconciliation when it really doesn't. The reconciliation talked about, like I said earlier, is, you know, from a sinful heart to a holy God. Now, when we move over to Ephesians, what we see is because of that reconciliation, our hearts back reconciled to God. We initially see in Ephesians, one, that we are now all adopted into the household of faith. We are now all gods, or not gods, but Jesus is brothers and sisters. We are children of God.

And that was according to his good pleasure. So we are reconciled into the household of God. Now, when we get to Ephesians 2, we see that there are really just two groups according to God's structure. There are those who are either in Christ or in Adam. Now, as Gentiles, you know, we were all a part of this other group. And through Christ, we now have a way back to the Father. That's going back to the 2 Corinthians 5 passage. And so as we are now, as now a way has been made back to the Father and we are either in Christ or we are in Adam, as believers coming into Christ, we are now just in Christ.

There's no in Christ and we still need to do some work to be united. No, once we are in Christ, we are united. We see this in John 17. When Jesus prays, he says that he's given us what we need for unity. And so in giving us what we need for unity, in the fact that the dividing wall of hostility has been broken, yes, that was between Jew and Gentile for those who are in Christ or in Adam. But once we come in, we leave Adam and we come into Christ, we are one. That reconciliation has occurred. Now, again, we can talk about how to walk out unity.

I'm up for that conversation. but to say that you and I fundamentally, ontologically, can't be reconciled because of the sin of slavery. So until you do some, you know, work, repent, lament, like all of these things, recognize your participation in whiteness that we can't worship together. We can't be reconciled according to the biblical definition of reconciliation. That's erroneous. Right. And looking at that Ephesians 2 passage, like you said, it's talking. talking about Jews and Gentiles, it's not talking about black people and white people, but it's still relevant because the point is, okay, if Jesus was enough to reconcile these

two groups, which couldn't have been farther apart, culturally, religiously, I'm sure the Jews were looking at the Gentiles and were like, really? Like, they're now going to be God's chosen people. How is this so? Ephesians 2 tells us that Jesus was enough to tear down that dividing wall of hostility, which was very very, very. very tall, very wide, very strong. He was the only one that could tear it down. And if that is enough to bring those two disparate groups together, then surely the gospel is enough to unify people that live in the same country just with different melanin counts. And yes, with maybe in some ways, depending on how you look at it, a different collective history. I also, I just want

to read that 2 Corinthians 5 passage because I think, like you mentioned, that people are, using this passage, verses 18 and 19 of 2 Corinthians 5, to justify this idea of racial reconciliation, which, like you said, is me, you know, lamenting over the history of whiteness in my participation and whiteness and all of this stuff in order for you and I to be friends and to worship together. But that's not even what the passage itself says. Like the answer is in the verse. So verses 18 through 19, all this. So, well, I'll back up a little bit.

Versus 17. If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. So once again, we see those two categories that you listed in Adam and in Christ. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come. So all of us in Christ are the same newness. All of this is from God, who through Christ, reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.

But it doesn't in there. It goes on to verse 19. That is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to himself, not. counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we see what the message of reconciliation is. Like it is the gospel of a holy God reconciling to himself and unholy people through Christ. And also he says that he doesn't count our trespasses against them. And yet the racial reconciliation, quote unquote, that I hear talked about by some people

who call themselves, you know, maybe social justice, Christians or whatever, is actually a lot about counting people's inherited trespasses against them. And that's not even a biblical concept, but you know the idea of that. So, like, where did we go wrong? Like, how are we reading scripture so differently? That is a good question that I don't know that I have an answer to. I don't know if it is, you know, like just for theology or not, you know, not going to seminary. I have no idea. I think that some of this, though, is taught in our seminaries too. And so I don't really have an answer to say, you know, this is specifically why this has now, you know, come up or people are now teaching the word this way.

but it's it's decimating churches and families all across the board you know when when we read in the scriptures that there is no longer like sythian or barbarian or things like that that is those groups these groups are when we come into the body of christ we come into christ there is now one and that doesn't mean like let's say that when we come into christ like you know i'm still black like i didn't I didn't lose my pigment. I didn't lose my ethnicity coming into Christ, but that takes a back seat to my identity in Christ. The same way every ethnicity should take a back seat to our identity in Christ.

And when we come into Christ, the old man is second. Like I don't regard anyone according to their old man. I regard them according to the new as children of God first. So, yeah, but I think, Kristen, I rack our minds, too, of like, you know, where did, where was the entry point or the loophole, so to speak, where this was able to come in? I think that there is, you know, I will say this. I think that there is spaces within certain churches that maybe haven't tackled questions of identity, questions of history. and that has allowed this growing error to thrive in some churches. Hey, this is Steve Day.

If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. we ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos.

If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. I think that's a good point because we know that racism exists. I think everyone knows it when they see it. at least, you know, people using their common sense. I'm not talking about now this like convoluted, you can't be not racist. You can only be anti-racist definition of racism. I'm talking about actual disdain and mistreatment of people, condescension of people based on

their skin color, whether it's through law or whether it's through personal interaction. I think we all know kind of what that looks like and recognize that it points in our history. It's been more mainstream and things like that. everyone recognizes that. And I don't think that the church really until recently thought very much about, okay, well, what do we, what do we do about that? We do have this like racism in our history. And, you know, oh, shoot, our Baptist church defended Jim Crow in the 1960s or something like that. And they're like, well, I don't know what to do with this. And these people in our church, they say that they're feeling hurt by this. And I really want to do right by them. So I think it's a lot of sincere pastors who have

never thought about this stuff, now realizing, okay, I do need to think about it. And unfortunately, I think that often the people that they turn to, the resources that they turn to are sometimes straight up secular resources. So they don't have a Christian perspective on race and racism. That's where we kind of get the infiltration of things like critical race theory. Or you've got people who identify as more progressive Christians who really don't have an Orthodox view of the gospel or scripture at all, again, kind of combining that secularism with vague Christian theology. And so, yeah, I think that maybe there's like a vacuum there and secular theories kind of filled it up. And some well-meaning pastors didn't really know what to do except to just kind of listen to

those voices because that's what they were told they had to do in order to, I guess, reconcile. I agree with that. You know, Kristen, I have conversations a lot. that, you know, some of these things just aren't taught in seminary. You know, you don't go to seminary and learn about how do I deal with racial injustice or how do I deal with social justice versus biblical justice. Yeah. And then when the culture is yelling at you, you need to. I think a lot of pastors simply are human and they want to make sure that they're doing the right thing. unfortunately, sometimes that right thing that they see is a cultural narrative, which is a secular narrative nine times out of ten, instead of looking directly at scripture, because they don't want

to upset anyone. They don't want to offend anyone. But the reality is that sometimes the word of God is going to be upsetting and offensive. It's going to strike people in, you know, ways that aren't always pleasant, but we stick to the word of God. We stick to the scriptures. Yeah, that's absolutely true. I read this interesting poll by Gallup about race relations. And we'll put the graph up on the screen. I think we can do it in a way that you can see it. And so the question by Gallup, this is a recent poll, would you say relations between white and black people are very good,

somewhat good, somewhat bad, or very bad? And these are just Americans. These are not necessarily Christians. If you look back at 2001, the earliest the survey goes, 70% of black adults, that's more than the white adults, thought that things are either very or somewhat good between black and white people in the United States. 62% of white people thought that. And then it's pretty even until about 2013, which I just think is interesting. We've got the first black president. we're supposed to be making a lot of progress towards a post-racial society. Apparently we're getting

more tolerant. You look at 2013 where 72% of white people, 66% of black people thought that, okay, things are good between black and white people. Steep drop off to 2015, where only 45% of white people thought things were good. 51% of black people thought things were good. And now we are at an all-time low. 33% of black adults. that it's, you know, race relations are good in the United States. Only 43% of white adults think that race relations are good in the United States. And I know that you kind of said, we don't really know what's causing this necessarily in the church. But I'm curious your take and your analysis that from 2013 to now or 2001 to now, it's gone down 40 points almost.

from people thinking race relations are good among black Americans to race relations are this bad. How is that possible when we have been reading Ibra Mexican D? We've been doing the work. Academia and public school are all teaching kids how to be activists, how to be social justice activists. We've been talking about equality and equity. Like I said, we had our first black president. We're talking about all this stuff. Way more. Critical race theory has become mainstream. And yet it's worse. I don't know. I can't say worse than ever, but at least in 20 years, our race relations are the worst that they have been. What do you think is behind that? Well, I'm not an expert, but I can speculate.

I would think that some of it is due to this push that tells us everything is horrible. Every person who was killed, every black person who was killed by a white person, it's automatically racist. And then what we see is this push for you to believe this paradigm, so to speak, that all white people are out to get all black people. We get redefinitions of racism. We get the consistent messaging that everything that's done is racist. If that's what I'm seeing all the time, eventually that's going to be what I believe. And so I honestly think that a lot of it goes just down to plain narrative. I think we are inviting people into conversations and to believe things that we haven't asked people to believe before. The idea of microaggressions, the fact that or the idea that I can know what your

intent is. And if it goes against the way that I think a white person should behave, then obviously it's racism, this redefinition of racism, the fact that everything is racist. And now as I look at everything that might not be going well, I now have a reason to say. say, hey, this is racist. This is all racism. Everything is racism. It's not just, it's not just, you know, the fact that it's put before us all the time. It's the freedom now that I have to live within this new thought of my truth, this very postmodern idea that if I deem it racist, then it's automatically racist. And every white person is racist. But how many times are we hearing that? How many times are we hearing the conversation of every inequity is an injustice?

Everything, you know, every, every act of racism is always happening. I don't know that we necessarily were thinking that before. I don't even know that statistically there's proof to uphold the idea. But this is yet what we're being told and sold into believing. I've also noticed people within the church who would probably consider themselves conservative theologically. I've seen a lot of rhetoric change among some people within the church who I do regard as brothers and sisters in Christ. We just disagree on this issue. But I have seen them become very dogmatic in this. And I don't, I apologize for my vagueness, but I also don't want to like call out

specific names, but I am thinking of some specific people that I have seen become, it seems like, extremely bitter and extremely angry when it comes to this specific subject, whereas 10 years ago, they weren't writing about this stuff. They weren't talking about this stuff. We probably agreed mostly on racism and justice and things, but now they have moved to the left on the ideological spectrum on this. And they seem very angry that other people have it and even believe that if, for example, you and I are not pursuing racial justice and reconciliation the way they are, it's because we are secretly racist or because we are not real Christians.

We are divisive, they would say. People who complain about critical race theory are the ones who are divisive. And I just, and I've seen this kind of tears apart churches like David Platt's church had a big disagreement about all of this. John Piper's church and seminary are having a big disagreement about all of this. And so can you talk about like for people maybe in those churches, in those organization, to find themselves, like, pitted against people that they thought that they were on the same page with when it comes to most issues. Like, how do you, from a biblical perspective, deal with real racism that happens and the things that we see, like biblically, how does it differ from what we

see Black Lives Matter and secularists doing in the face of racism? Well, first, I think that many people would say that this conversation has been going on for a very long time. I think for the critical race theorist or the social justice warrior,

they would put forward the argument that, hey, we've been having this conversation. True. And many people in the church just haven't wanted to step up to the plate. Again, I don't know that that's true. I don't know that there's proof of that to be able to well, you know, every person who leaned right did not want to have this conversation.

Yeah. What I think has happened is that in 2020, it was definitely laid on our doorstep. Now, when looking at how do we deal with racism in the church, like real racism and not going down the BLM route, one, I think that we need to go to scripture and look at, well, how do I deal with ethnic partiality? You know, Kristen, I say there's no verse in the Bible that says, thou shall not be a racist. But we do look at the sin that aligns with racism. So partiality based on ethnicity, hatred based on ethnicity, slander based on ethnicity.

And then we handle those issues appropriately. What is the call to like repent or to call someone under church discipline if they choose to live their life from a place of ethnic partiality? I personally, and I know many people wouldn't agree with this, But I personally would say, hey, are you a believer? Should I treat you as an unbeliever if you are holding this type of partiality in your heart toward your brother? Because clearly, this isn't what we see in scripture about how we treat one another. When we read Ephesians 4, Ephesians 4 is very clear on how I treat someone in the body of Christ.

And we also have to understand that racism can go to anyone. It's heart to heart. So it's not just that I now need to be on the lookout for white people who are oppressive, marginalizing and things like that toward black people. I need to look out for everyone. You know, anyone can have ethnic partiality or hatred in their heart towards someone else because of their ethnic background or because of the color of their skin. And so this is something that as leaders in churches, as pastors, or just the lay person who

knows that their friend, you know, maybe harboring hatred in their heart. These are things that we talk about, not things that we shy away from and we allow to live inside of our church communities. There is a very famous speaker that both of us know. And again, in the interest of like not trying to instigate like internet drama because that's not what I want to do. But this is someone that a woman that a lot of people follow, a lot of conservative Christians follow. And She says a lot of good stuff. I had someone message me, and it just made me sad. A young woman messaged me and said, hey, I just went to this conference where this woman

was teaching. And, you know, I don't agree with her on the social justice stuff. But beyond that, I left the conference feeling like she really, like if I met her, she would really hate me and that she hates white people. And she was like, I'm sure she doesn't. But it comes across that way. And I do see that attitude amongst some Christians that they have taken on this second. definition of racism as being privileged plus power, therefore only white people can be truly

racist. When that's not the biblical definition, like you said, God hates partiality. We see that throughout the old and the New Testament, he doesn't show partiality. And he tells us that it is actually an injustice to show partiality towards people. And that means white or black. Yes. Or anything else. Yes. Any other ethnic group, you know, one of the things that really bugs me now that I'm out of the CR team mindset is just the black, white binary that gets set up in all of these conversations. What about anyone else? Yeah. And that's true when you're talking to about like diversity. Like all these things sound so good when people are saying, okay, you know, we want a diverse church or we want a church that looks like heaven or whatever. And I saw a

tweet the other day by, I think it was a pastor who said, you know, if your church looks the same as you, speaks the same language as you, votes the same way that you do, then you're not a real church. And I know, or I'm assuming that that person is really thinking probably about white Republican churches when they're saying that. They probably are not thinking about the Korean church that is entirely Korean and probably all votes the same way and thinks pretty similar things. He's probably not talking about them, but the fact of the matter is, is that the fully Chinese church, the 100% black church, or even the 100% white church is not failing to glorify God in some way because of their skin color, because diversity could, is, well, one, it's not something that we

see in scripture as like a standard of holiness for the church, but also it's a bigger definition than white and black. there, if you have a church that's entirely white or entirely black, you could have 50 different nationalities in there. You could have 50 different, you know, or you could have a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds. You could have a variety of family backgrounds. And so I wonder why a diversity of other kinds has kind of been put to the back burner, or even of other races, has been put to the back burner. And we only measure a success of a church, or at least in the social justice world of, okay, well, how many black versus white people do you have? I mean,

that also seems very condescending. It does. And it, to me, it's just so exclusionary. It leaves so many people on the margins and in the fringes. And, you know, what if there's something happening with my Korean brother or sister? How do I look into that? How do I know if all my focus is on black and white. Yeah. If everything that we're pushing toward is black and white. If when a black person walks in, you know, now we are diverse. In some ways, is that not tokenism? Is that not using me for your own gain because of the color of my skin because you want your church to be more diverse? The body of Christ is diverse. Yeah. Let's just be honest. When we look at the global church, the global church is diverse. I think to put forward this standard that every white church needs to be multi-ethnic when

or in multi-ethnic meaning, you know, it needs to have black people. When black people are, what, 13% of the population, that's going to be a big feat for every white church. Yeah. Yeah. And it goes back to this idea that the only spaces that are obligated to be diverse are the majority white churches. And again, that's neglecting the fact that especially in maybe some rural areas,

there might be almost, you know, 100% white people who are in some areas. might be almost 100% black people. And I just don't see a standard in scripture that says we have to meet these particular quotas in order to be a healthy or a holy church. And also when people say we want the church to look like heaven or we want our local church to look like the world, okay, well, what's your age demographic? Because, hey, look, you're in an area with a lot of old people and I see mostly people under 40 at your church. I don't see anyone with special needs at your church. And so again,

it goes back to when we're talking about diversity and on earth as it is in heaven and all these things that sounds so good, really what it comes down to is that you want a church that has enough black people so that you can say that your church is diverse. But again, you're not looking at all of these other categories of people that may exist. Or what is the basis for your unity amongst your diversity. So it's like, yeah, now we have, you know, a reflection of our community. So there's 3% black people in our community. We have 3% black people in our church.

But, you know, we also have a wide variety. Some people are progressive. Some people, you know, believe in this. They believe that you can, you know, do all of these other things that aren't orthodox. Yeah. I think that we are putting diversity before unity. And we need to be having a conversation of how do we keep our church orthodox?

How do we keep it in line with scripture before I bust out this conversation of how many black, brown people can I get into my church? Right. If we aren't looking at unity first, then I think we'll run the risk of having diversity that is truly, that truly runs the risk of splitting the church. Yep. And I'm not saying, you know, all black people are progressive. I'm not saying that at all. But what I am saying is that we have to guard our unity in such a way that it protects the faith once for all given to the saints. I can't sacrifice the faith on behalf of diversity.

Yep. And we also can't sacrifice basic facts. I think that's like that's one thing that when I'm talking to someone that I disagree with. And again, I talked to a very well-known speaker, author. and we were talking about this idea of systemic racism and how I disagree with not only how she has approached it, but also some of the speakers that she has hosted, how they approach it and how they talk about it and really what it came down to, even though she and I agreed on most things theologically.

And we probably actually agreed on most things politically too. She's not a progressive. She's certainly a sister in Christ. And yet when it came to this topic of systemic racism and, me presenting some facts or some other ways to think about it or some maybe resources from you or Thomas Sol or, you know, the other side. It was just, no, it was just I don't want to hear that. Look, my black friends tell me that there is systemic racism. They tell me there's an epidemic of police violence against black people. And if they tell me, then it is unempathetic and

unloving for me to disagree with them. And I just can't get on board with that. And, Maybe I don't know. Maybe that's my fault. But I just don't see how it's loving to allow someone to believe what I see is a false narrative in some ways. How do you respond to that? I think that before we make accusations, biblically, we need to have evidence. So we still follow the patterns of scripture. We look at the evidence.

I don't just run and say, well, one person was killed. So see, this is an issue of systemic racism. I don't even say, look, 10 people were killed. This is an issue of systemic racism. I say, what does the data say? What does the facts say? Now, and there are many people who are doing different levels of research. But we need to do our due diligence as Christians to put forth the data and say, look, this is really

what the data is. Are there issues of systemic racism within our country? Sure, I am not a systemic racism denier. But I will say we have to define that term carefully. That is a term that is thrown out everywhere nowadays. Everything is systemically racist. I don't believe that. I do believe that where you get two or more hearts that want to be in collusion and sinful,

you have the ability to create a system that can work against a people. Yeah. That can also work against white people. That can work against Koreans. That can work against Chinese. Our definition and what we see being put forth a lot in cultural, right now is that the idea of systemic racism only happens to black people. I'm not, I don't, I don't uphold that view. I think we need to be careful as Christians to define our terms very

carefully. And no, I can't just go off of, well, this is what I think or this is what I feel. I need to have evidence before I put forth accusation. And we again, I think as Christians have to be so careful not to take the secular definition of things, but also at the same time like you've done, not necessarily just throw them out because they're secular. Like you have examined this claim of systemic racism. And rather than calling everything systemically racist, you've actually thought about it and said, okay, well, here's where I see this.

Here's where I don't see this. I think a trap that a lot of people Christian are not fall into, we've talked about it many times on this podcast, is the idea that all racial disparities is due to or are due to racial discrimination. And so the so-called proof that some people put forth of systemic racism is, well, look, black people have a lower graduation rate. They have a higher proportion of, you know, of poverty among them or things like that. And they think that that is enough to prove that that is due to systemic racism without looking at the fact that, okay, well, white people have a lower graduation rate and a higher poverty rate than Asians. And so if one of those, the disparity between whites and blacks is due to race.

is the disparity between Asians and whites due to racism? And of course, they would say, no, but that just goes to show kind of the fallacy of saying disparities equal discrimination. We actually have to think a little bit harder than that. They could be due to discrimination. That's the truth. They could be due to discrimination. They could be due to unfair systems. But we actually have to think a little bit harder, read a little bit more and say, okay, but if it is due to discrimination, I need to be able to prove it. Not just kind of this vague sense of, well, there was Jim Crow, there is some idea of mass incarceration, there was slavery. So that must be the reason for these disparities. I won't get into all of this, but Thomas Soul actually tries to

debunk that entire narrative. But it seems like it's really hard to have these conversations, especially as a white woman, if I try to engage and say, well, you know, that's kind of a fallacy, or that's not really true, or that's not really biblical, that I'm accused of lacking empathy, lacking love, lacking understanding towards my black brothers and sisters. I don't want to be called that. I don't think the people in my audience want to be called that.

So how do we approach these tough conversations with our brothers and sisters in Christ, whom we love, but we don't want to come off as unsympathetic? Well, nobody wants to be unsympathetic. No one wants to, you know, lack empathy and things like that. And yet, that is what this narrative is creating.

And it's actually one of the tenets, of critical race theory, which is this narrative. And going back to the idea that black people can have an insight into racism that, you know, white people can't or that the stories that we tell help to bring reality to the, to racism. And so when we look at, you know, how do we have these conversations? I would say we do so with, one, lots of grace, but to ask questions. get biblical support, you know, ask for biblical support. You know, where do you see this concept in scripture?

How do you see what you're saying align with this scripture here? Can you give me a definition for the word that you're using? Where do you see this word being used in scripture or even a concept? Like, just like I said, we don't see racism in scripture, that word. But we can put together different tenets or principles to create the, the racism or the definition for what we're seeing today or what people are using today. How do you, when you look in scripture, put that together? Is that a scriptural or a biblical principle?

I would say, definitely, though, have grace. Read first sources because many people will say, well, you know, this person doesn't really believe that. Robin DiAngelo doesn't believe this. Well, if you have read Robin DiAngelo, and I would say do so carefully, but if you have, you can say, well, actually she says this. Ibram Kendi has said this. Yeah. You know, and begin to engage people where they are and let them know, hey, this principle

isn't biblical. It actually is antithetical to the scriptures and to Christianity when we look at, you know, these verses here. But again, it must be seasoned with grace. And it has to be a conversation that's done patiently because, you know, people want, people get defensive. I got defensive a lot when Kristen and I would have these conversations, but she was very patient with me. Right.

And so I think that's part of the conversation, understanding that it's going to take grace, understanding that you're going to mess up. Yeah. You know, and you'll be accused of being racist and things like that. And that will be painful. Yeah. And asking for forgiveness, extending forgiveness, giving grace, going again, bearing with one another. It's all the things that we see in Ephesians for. Yeah. And unfortunately, I do think that this, how many professing Christians are approaching

race and racism, how they talk about race and racism from the social justice perspective, how they talk about white people, how they talk about the plight of black Americans. It is, they are actually not open to conversations, certainly not with people who disagree with them on it, because like you said, they are offering their lived experience. is proof of a systemic problem. And if your subjective experience is your proof, then you're basically saying, you know, this is my truth. No, you can't argue against that. I don't want your data. I don't want your facts. You can't argue against that. And it can be really difficult, you know, for example, when a big news story happens and it looks like, okay, a white cop killed an unarmed

black person. Of course, the propensity is to just say, wow, wow, you know, that's awful, that's terrible. This must be this big systemic problem. And we need to, you know, post something about racism. And then if someone comes along and says, well, actually, you know, that's not what happened. Here's what actually happened. And here are the numbers. You're immediately accused of lacking compassion.

And you and people say, well, you know, we don't want your facts. Just have a little heart. And my question is, well, like, when's the right time then? When's the right time? because if people are believing something that's not true, that's actually causing them unfounded fear and bitterness and hatred towards a group of people, is it not loving to me for me as their sister in Christ to say, I totally understand your pain and I don't know what it's like to be black.

And I'm not saying that I do. But here's the truth. Like, here are the facts. Like, I want to turn the lights on for you. It's hard. Like, I don't know really what my question is, but it's hard to find, to find.

that balance, I think the truth and the facts and the data are all so important. And yet, uh, they seem to not be prioritized many times when we're talking about race and race and racial reconciliation. But that goes back to the exact same, the exact thing I was talking about at the beginning of like, um, what we're being bombarded with and what we're being shown. So the, I think it's the National African American Museum of History and Culture came and, and that's a Smithsonian Museum came out with the graphic last year about whiteness and what whiteness is. And whiteness is facts. It's logic. It's the data-driven results. So if I am giving you data, then I am automatically participating in whiteness, which I'm automatically now participating in

racism. So it's like, how do we have this conversation when culture is setting it up where now we can't have any conversation because anything I do is racist? Right. And that makes it really difficult. And I think that's why some people, after last summer, kind of checked out. Like they posted their Black Square. They said what they were going to say. But then they realized, okay, you know, I'm still being told to do the work and to read all these books and to divest of my whiteness and privilege.

And a lot of people are just checked out and said, okay, well, I'm not having this conversation anymore. And unfortunately, that is what happens, like this idea of collective grievance and collective guilt that I am angry at you or you are angry at me for something that maybe possibly someone who lived before me with a similar skin color did. That's it's difficult for us to digest. It's also wrong. It's not it's not biblical. But also it turns people off to the conversation about race in general. And I do. And obviously you'd think this too. It's like it's still a conversation worth having. Like we still need to be having these conversations. And unfortunately, I think the

extremism that we see on the other side just kind of turns people off from talking about it, period. I think it does. I think people get tired. They get fatigued from, you know, constantly being the wrong one. I also think people get like fatigued from being the victim or told like, hey, you're constantly marginalized. You're constantly under. When we look at how we establish evidence. Biblically, we establish it with two or three witnesses. You know, I have a friend Eric Muldrow and he does a ton of research on police shootings on the data. And he's a black guy. And the data doesn't line up. So now the data doesn't line up, but yet we're forcing a narrative on black and white of exactly what this is. You know, this is systemic. This is a reason to

defund the police. This is, you know, the evidence that we need to just to prove that racism exists. I think that one, we have, again, we have to give grace. And we can also, like you said, we can look in America's history. We can look and acknowledge the facts. In the, in the scriptures, we see Israel as a prize and we see her as a prostitute. I can look at American. I can say, look, I see American or heyday, and I can see American when she wasn't doing too well. That is history. And that's okay. But I can't hold you responsible for the sins of your ancestors and say, now you yourself are guilty and you should be lamenting and repenting for the hearts of the people who came before you that you might not even know just because you simply bear their skin color. Right. And I do.

I just want to make a note about like the whole ancestor thing. We talk about that. But I just thought about this like a few months ago that, hey, when I am talking about, oh, I don't want to be held responsible for the sin of my ancestors. it's not even that because I don't even know if my ancestors owned slaves. They probably didn't because there were only like 7% of the South that even did own slaves. And so when people are talking about your ancestors, my ancestors, what we're really talking about is something way more disconnected than that. What people are talking about is actually people who just lived in the same geographical

region that we did who happened to have the same melanin count. So that's even an even weaker case that I bear their responsibility. So when people talk about, you know, the collective repentance in Daniel or in Ezra of Israel, and they tried to say, you know, that is the case for reparations here in America today that white Americans need collective repentance. There's so much wrong with that because that one, that was Israel, that was God's chosen people. America is not modern day Israel.

Two, when they were talking about the sins of their ancestors, those were their actual blood ancestors. Like those weren't just people who shared their skin color in the same vague region. Those were their actual ancestors. And also the sins that they were repenting of were sins that were still going on to that day actively. And God says that, you know, a son is not going to bear the sin of his father or his grandfather. And so I just see a lot of an attempt to reinterpret scripture and even the gospel to try to fit into. something that it's just not. And I think that's part of why we're seeing what we're seeing

in that Gallup poll that people are divided because we have a totally different understanding of just even how the world works. I agree completely. I think the whole redefinition of sin, America's original sin, you know, how are we considering sin? These are big conversations. And like I said earlier, I don't think that people are taught in seminary how to address these things. How do I, you know, acknowledge racism that may be happening today? How do I talk to the racist that might be in my congregation, I mean, in my congregation, regardless of their skin color, and stick to the biblical truth of scripture. Yeah. There's just a lot of influence and a lot of voices playing into the conversation. And we have to stick to what the word of God says first.

Right. Right. Right. And. Okay, I've got just one more question for you. But I do want to say when I was saying that, oh, only 8% of Southerner's own slaves, that was not me minimizing in any way how grotesque and pervasive slavery and that culture was and even lingering for many years after the end of slavery. It was just to make the point that not every white person today or every black person today has ancestors that were involved in slavery. So I think it's really important to be exactly. with our language. But my last... And I agree with that. And I think that this is part of the conversation that needs to be had. We're white people the only people who own slaves. No.

We're white people the only people who bought and sold slaves. No. And yet we don't look at the broader narrative of history. We don't look at, you know, how slavery was handled in the South. And by whom? You know, are we going to talk about the fact that black people don't own slaves. And even if it was a small amount of black people who own slaves, that still, it's still a reality. Are we going to talk about Native Americans that sold slaves and

participated in some of that trade? We haven't. And, you know, this isn't, again, to minimize slavery, it's not to minimize the impact or anything like that. Yet, if we're going to be called to the carpet as a nation, we need to be looking at the truth of our history and not just looking at it from this one-sided view of history. Yeah, it's very easy to just kind of generalize history. Again, that white and black binary, that really it inhibits us from seeing history as it really was, from seeing morality as it really is when we insist upon white, bad, black good. While there's a lot of nuance, like there are a lot of, you know, that's just not necessarily

the true presiding narrative of human history. My last question that I think people are wondering about a lot of people have heard about the Be the Bridge curriculum. A lot of people's churches have gone through it. And they've even seen it as like an alternative to critical race theory and progressive curriculum. And yet you've created a new curriculum. So obviously you saw a need for it, even though Be the Bridge exists.

Can you tell us the difference between what you guys have created and the Be the Bridge curriculum and maybe why you think that's a little problematic. Yeah, so we created a curriculum reconciled. As I mentioned earlier, Latasha Morrison created Be the Bridge curriculum maybe six or seven years ago at this point, five to seven years ago, I'll say. And she created her curriculum from what I have read and understand. I believe one, she created it from a good place and wanting to pursue unity within the church and to really build a bridge between Blacks, in whites. I believe at the time she was living in the South and had experienced some issues down there regarding race. And so I will start out by saying that yes, I do believe that

Mrs. Morrison started out from a good place in wanting to have a curriculum that spoke into issues regarding race and racism. Unfortunately, and I say this publicly on my YouTube page, unfortunately, I believe that she's gone away from some of the tenants of, you know, like the foundational tenets for unity that we find in the scriptures. I think that some of her curriculum actually creates more of the black, white binary and separates black Christians from white Christians and puts out a list of things that white Christians must do that black Christians don't necessarily have to participate in.

I've received a ton of letters from people who have participated in her Facebook group. I was actually a part of her Facebook group and then I got banned. But, you know, it's really. really a thing of, and I'm not going to call it, quote, unquote, abusive, but there are parts of it where it's like, you know, white people can't speak or I can, me being black, I can put in my comment, like, hey, this is only for black people, white people, we don't want to hear from you. She actually released, what is it called, I'm going to actually read it, it's 16 bridge building tips for white people. And so this is a list of 16 things that white people should do if they

want to build bridges with black people. And some of those things include, don't expect people of color to be your only source for education about race. I can agree with that. As a black person, that would be overwhelming. If all my white friends came to me and were like, what do you think about this? What's your thought about that? That would be overwhelming.

Right. But then, you know, we go down to things like, let's see here. Oh, sorry, I just got off of it. Don't make the conversation about you. white explain. Don't compare your experience of oppression or suffering with a person of colors experience with oppression or suffering. Don't explain away a person of colors experience with oppression or of oppression.

There's quite a few. Also, I got it pulled up too. One of them says, you can't demand proof of a person of Colors lived experience. Yes. You can't counter their narrative with the experience of another person of color. You have to provide, don't chastise people of color because they express their feelings in a way that you deem inappropriate.

So that means that they can wail at you. They can cuss at you. They can yell at you. And you're not allowed to actually, as a white person in that situation, you're not allowed to, according to this Facebook group, actually say, hey, that hurt my feelings or that's not Christlike. look, I'm just trying to have a conversation. You actually are instructed to take a step away and to, like, gather yourself.

But basically, it's another way of saying, like, your white tears don't matter. Your white feelings don't matter. Like, you can be degraded and denigrated as much as a person of color in this group wants to denigrate you. And since it's coming from a place of sincere lived experience, you white person, your feelings are not valid and shouldn't be brought to the table, I guess. Yeah. It says, remain cognizant of. of the dynamics of white fragility and take note

of how it usually shows up in you. I think that's an automatic assumption that if you're white, you're fragile. If you're white and someone comes up to you and now calls you a racist or calls you out of your name and is I'm yelling at you and you cry or you become emotional, well, that's just because you're fragile. You like, because I'm black,

I get to treat you in any kind of way, just because of the color of your skin, but we don't see that in scripture. And this is where I think reconciled really speaks into some of that because we talk about how do we live as family. So how do you treat me? How do I treat you regardless of skin color? This is something that every Christian is called into when they come into the family of God. It's not because you're white. You need to be doing this. And because I'm black, I get to do this or I should be doing this. No, that isn't, that isn't how the Lord

participates with us. Yep. How does he participate with us in scripture? And that's what we put forward. Like we look at the New Testament and you see the disciples, cultural enemies. You got the fishermen and the tax collector, but they still had the same expectation. Right. Right. And speaking of tax collector and Nicodemus and a lot of the people that, you know, Jesus interacted with, we hear also this oppressed versus oppressor narrative that Jesus, you know, he hated the oppressors and he only hung out with the oppressed. Well, the tax collector and the Pharisees were considered oppressive. during that time, he shared the gospel with them. He called them to repentance in the same way that he called the prostitute and the fishermen to repentance, true, as well. And so he reconciles with

the gospel, both the oppressor class in a society, the true oppressor class, people who are actually doing something to oppress people, and the oppressed. He reconciles the white and the black, the people of different nationalities, people of different ages, people of different different abilities. That's what the body of Christ is. And I love what you are doing to help us walk that out. And I want to ask in one second, just for you to tell us again, and we'll link everything ourselves, but where they can find all of that. I do. First, I want to just read this part of chapter of Ephesians 4 because you brought it up. And I think it is just perfectly encapsulates how we are supposed to treat one another and I hope that by God's grace we're all able to do this better,

certainly myself included. Therefore, having put away falsehood, this is verse 25, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor. So that's the first thing, which is interesting. For we are members one of another. Be angry and do not sin. Do not let the sun go down on your anger and give no opportunity to the devil. So right there in verse 26, we see something that goes against the be the bridge rules, be angry and do not sin. Do not let the sun go down on your anger. Give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor doing honest work with his own hand so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up as fits the occasion that it may give grace to those who

hear and do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God by whom you are sealed for the day of redemption. let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you along with all malice. I mean, that's it right there. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another as God and Christ forgave you. I mean, that's it, right? That is it. Like, we think that we need to do the work of anti-racism, that we need to, you know, lament, repent, and repent, legislate, um,

like all of these things that get put forward. We think we need to do that. And that that is, um, in some ways the difficult work. My position is that the scriptures are really the difficult work. Like that's, that's the work.

Like how much effort do I need to put forth every day to forgive someone? And not just about racism, but just about anything. When I, when I feel offended or, you know, how much effort does it take to actually give grace to be humble? to repent, to listen well.

These are the things that as Christians we are called to do. It could be easy. I can just go out. Let me just go legislate today. Let me just go, you know, repent of my whateverness to make someone else happy. But that's not what we receive in the scriptures. In the scriptures, we're told what to do. We bear with one another.

Bear with one another just means keep going. We keep going. We don't leave loud. We keep going with one another. That is the position of the Christian. Yeah, absolutely. And if people don't know, leave loud is a movement. I think that started by Jamar Tisbee, who wrote the color of compromise, which I know

a lot of churches are also reading, where he is encouraging black Christians to leave white churches. And like he said, that is not walking in unity. And thankfully, by grace through faith, we can be. Reconciled through the gospel and walk that out. So if people are interested in your curriculum and how you are using the gospel, using scripture to bring people together, where can they go? Then go to center for biblical unity.com backslash reconciled or just center for biblical

unity.com. We will have it or we do have it right on our homepage. You can order it there. And yes, check it out. There is a way in which we live according to scripture that actually builds unity and helps us to live and walk in unity. Yes, and amen. Well, thank you so much, Monique and Krista, for what you guys are doing. It is so, so very needed. I appreciate the clarity amidst the chaos and confusion. So thank you. Thank you so much. And thanks for just the opportunity to come and

talk about it. Yes, of course. Hey, this is Steve Deist. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos.

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