Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 560 | How Tim Keller & Russell Moore Became Mouthpieces for Masks & Vaccines | Guest: Megan Basham

Episode Date: February 8, 2022

Today we're talking with Megan Basham, a reporter for the Daily Wire who recently wrote an article exposing how Francis Collins and the NIH co-opted evangelical leaders like Tim Keller and Russell Moore, influencing them to support the establishment narrative on masks and the COVID vaccines. Interestingly, everything these people claimed was a "fringe conspiracy theory," like lab-leak theory or that masking isn't actually very effective at slowing the spread of COVID, turned out to be correct. So why were Francis Collins, the CDC, and others so adamant about their own unverified ideas and so dismissive of anything the Right had to say about having church in person or freedom to choose whether or not to be vaccinated? --- Timecodes: (0:00) Introduction (8:56) Interview with Megan & how Francis Collins duped evangelical leaders to grift for him (54:40) Discussing the NYT op-ed by David Brooks about evangelicals --- Today's Sponsors: Z-Stack is a specially formulated immune-boosting supplement that includes Zinc, Quercetin, Vitamin C & Vitamin D. Go to ZStackLife.com/ALLIE & enter promo code 'ALLIE' to get a discount on your first order! Chamonix by Genucel isn't skincare, it's a gift of luxury for you or for a special lady in your life! Go to Genucel.com/ALLIE for 60% off their most popular package! Annie's Kit Clubs has a new box - the Genius Box - to help encourage your kids' curiosity while providing fun activities that are as entertaining as they are educational with 3 hands-on activities to explore an exciting STEM theme. Perfect for kids aged 7-12. Go to AnniesKitClubs.com/ALLIE & save 50% on your first box! --- Show Links: The Daily Wire: "How the Federal Government Used Evangelical Leaders to Spread Covid Propaganda to Churches" https://bit.ly/3LjK9s0 The New York Times: "The Dissenters Trying to Save Evangelicalism From Itself" https://nyti.ms/3Gz5UjV Tim Keller's tweet praising Stephen Colbert's expression of faith: https://bit.ly/3gAWpWZ --- Previous Episodes Mentioned: Ep 508: My Response to John Piper, Tim Keller & Big Eva https://apple.co/3HJoK9C --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable, trying out that cold open because I got some good feedback.

Today's episode is brought to you by Good Ranchers, Get Some Better Than Organic Chicken and Craft Beef shipped right to your front door by going to good ranchers.com slash alley. Okay, guys, today we are talking to Daily Wire Reporter Megan Basham. We are talking about this bombshell article that came out last week, I believe, about evangelicalism and the evangelicals that were basically used by the former NIH director, the retiring NIH director, Francis Collins, to push vaccines and masks and virtual meetings. during the height of COVID. It is a very fascinating article, and I just want to talk to her about how she got this information

about some of the top and most influential evangelical leaders and why they are so influenced by Francis Collins. We're going to talk a little bit about who Francis Collins is and why it's really puzzling that some of the most respectable Christian leaders, like Tim Keller, are praising him publicly and are basically using him as a vessel or using themselves as a vessel to preach whatever Francis Collins wants them to preach to their congregants. We're also going to talk about this New York Times opinion piece by David Brooks, the dissenters trying to save evangelicalism from itself, talking about

how basically conservative evangelicals are a huge problem. Surprise, surprise, and even mentions World Magazine. I am an opinion. writer for World Magazine. So I took a special interest in this story. So we're going to talk about that in a little bit more. It's a really fascinating conversation. You guys might know over the past 24 hours, I traveled to Tallahassee. I got to speak to a group there at the Florida State University. I'm very thankful for the opportunity to do that. And I got to meet a few of you there, several of you there. Thank you all to those of you who came out. Also, over the weekends, I got to meet so many relatable listeners. I went to a Nate Bergahtze show. I don't know if you guys know who Nate

Bergotsie is. He's a very popular comedian. If you guys have Netflix, definitely go watch his specials. He's totally clean. Like he doesn't cuss. It's not raunchy. He's not necessarily like an explicitly Christian comedian. He's just a clean comedian. Super dry, super sarcastic, hilarious. And my husband and I got to go to that show over the weekend. And there was a huge crossover between Nate Bargazzi fans and relatable listeners outside of a conference that I've actually, that I'm actually the speaker for. I don't think I've ever met that many relatable listeners in one place. Like I could not even walk a few feet without one of you coming up to me and saying, oh my gosh, I listen to Relatable. So thank you for those of you who did come up to me.

I also got a couple messages from you saying that you were, you didn't know. if you could, you know, should come up to me and take a picture or whatever. And also I noticed that a lot of you who took a picture with me, you're like embarrassed to ask or you don't know if you should ask. Just ask to take the picture. It's not embarrassing at all. It's not weird. I love to meet listeners of Relatable. I love to take a picture with you and talk to you. So thank you so much to everyone who came up to me. I love getting to meet you guys. It's just a great reminder, even though every day I love doing what I do, it's a great reminder when I meet you guys and when I hear firsthand face to face what this show really means to you and the impact that it's had by the

grace of God on your life. It just keeps me going. It gives me the energy to talk about these things day after day. So thank you guys so much for your encouragement. It's super fun to meet you guys. Another thing that I wanted to say that happened over the weekend that I wanted to use just as encouragement to you guys. And I talked about this also in my speech in Tallahassee, but over the weekend, before I went to the comedy event, I also, I volunteer at this pro-life pregnancy center in the area. And I was there over the weekend and I got to talk to a lot of moms who are in need. They were there getting supplies, getting baby clothes, getting free cribs and things that people had donated, which by the way, we're going to do a big donation through.

Amazon in just a couple weeks, actually next week. Because next week is my 30th birthday. So we're going to do like a big donation thing in honor of my birthday to this pregnancy center. But anyway, I was there talking to these women. And it just reminded me of all the things that we talk about, the importance of speaking up when it's unpopular, the importance of fighting for that, which is good and right and true, speaking up especially when it comes to abortion and protection of unborn lives, when you're face-to-face with people. When you're face to face with the people that you're talking about, you realize that this is not a, this is not an especially political situation. Yes, it is a political issue in some sense, but when you are actually in the thick of it and loving the people that you are

loving the people who are actually at the center of the political issues that you're talking about day to day, you realize that these are just people, they're human beings. you realize why politics matter because people really do matter. But it just reminds you the importance of boldness, of courage, of advocating for the things that you believe in. The women that I met to are choosing life for their children who are in need, really what they need more than anything else. Yes, our political advocacy, like I said, matters. But really what these people need more than anything else is love. Like they needed to hear that God loves them, that God is taking care of them, and that we are there for them. And that just reminded me of the importance of that approach

when it comes to all of the political issues that we talk about, especially when it comes to abortion, that we put our money where our mouth is, that we walk the walk, we don't just talk the talk. Because at the end of the day, what we're talking about, they're not political, primarily issues. They're not primarily culture war issues. These are people issues. These are human issues. These are issues of theological proportions and what it comes down to is how we best love people. And at the end of the day, these are people who are made in the image of God who need to hear that God loves them. And then when we go further out, how do we do that, not just personally, most importantly, how do we do that financially? How do we do that politically? How do we create

a culture in which the people who are at the center of these issues can thrive? And so those are just some things. I just wanted to get those thoughts out. Those have been percolated in my mind for the past few days. And I didn't have a new episode yesterday because I was traveling. So I wanted to get all of that out as a reminder. So I hope there's some encouragement in there for all of you in this kind of a little bit of a rambling introduction to the conversation that we are about to have. Thank you guys for being here and bearing with me through that beginning monologue. Hey, this is Steve Deast. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand. that the biggest issues facing our country

aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard

questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are, or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts.

I hope you'll join us. Megan, thank you so much for joining us. Can you tell everyone who you are and what you do? Hi, I'm Megan Basham. I am a reporter with The Daily Wire. I cover a lot of entertainment and culture stories, but personally, as a Christian, as an evangelical, I just have a lot of interest in church stories, stories that encompass. what we all believe in, what we're doing every week, what our purpose and our mission is here.

So they give me a lot of leeway to cover those stories, which is nice because sometimes people go, why is the entertainment reporter always writing about church? But it's just because I'm really passionate about the church. And I super appreciate the Daily Wire, giving me so much freedom to cover those stories. Yeah, and it's a niche. I think maybe the general audience might wonder, is there enough content to even cover in that kind of subculture, but there absolutely is. Both you and I know that. There's a lot that goes on just within conservative or what's considered conservative evangelicalism and what is sometimes

referred to as Big Eva, the establishment evangelicalism. There's a lot to talk about there. And it's super interesting to me, obviously, we talk about that. And that is why I wanted to talk to you about this recent story that came out called how the federal government used evangelical leaders to spread COVID propaganda to churches. I saw you tweet about it, but a lot of people sent it to me saying, you have to talk about this on your show. So that's why I wanted to have you on. There's probably several people listening who haven't read it.

Maybe they haven't even heard about this story. So can you first just kind of give us a rundown? Why did you decide to write this? How did this come about? Well, you know, like everybody else, as someone who's going to church every week, who's very involved in our church life, and we have small group, we have a lot of friends.

We were all sifting through all of this information on COVID, on masks, on vaccinations, on lockdown policies, just everything you could think of going, how does the Bible speak to this? How is our church talking about this? So it really started there just as a personal issue. My kids are at a small Christian school. There was a lot of debate about masks there. So like everyone else, it was just a major topic. And when I would go to a lot of the resources that I would typically use a lot of major pastors,

podcasts, things like that, one man just kept turning up again and again. And that was NIH director, the National Institutes of Health Director, Francis Collins. And he was presented in all of these interviews as someone who is a man of integrity, a Bible believing Christian himself, someone who believes in the sanctity of human life. and I'll just be very transparent that for me, part of the frustration of all of those interviews and podcasts and webinars was that his word was kind of treated as medically authoritative. And any questioning of what he was saying regarding things like children being in masks at school, whether churches should gather, issues like who should be vaccinated, if there's

ever a good reason, maybe to forego vaccination or delay vaccination. It felt like there was really only one message coming from all major pastors and all major Christian media. And on top of that, as a reporter, there were some things that Collins was saying that just a little alarm bell went off in my ear. When he was talking about the lab leak theory being a conspiracy, and you started to see a lot of these big evangelical outlets like Christianity today, treating it as almost sinful to talk about. Whereas I knew as a reporter, no, that's actually a pretty reasonable hypothesis if you look at the facts on the ground.

And since then, of course, it has come out that there may have been some personal motivation with Francis Collins and his subordinate Anthony Fauci to treat that as kind of a crazy conspiracy theory when it turns out, no, actually, that was a pretty reasonable. reasonable notion. Yeah. And you know, as you alluded to, Francis Collins has been someone who has been praised by evangelicals for a while. When it was announced that he was retiring later last year, you had several Christians, public Christians, influential Christians come out and talk about how wonderful Francis Collins is. David French, of course, called him a national treasure. Russell Moore said, I admire greatly the wisdom of expertise and most of all the Christian

humility and grace of Francis Collins. I cannot wait to see how God uses him next. Tim Keller, as good as NIH director is at his craft, he's an even better friend. And so he has really good street cred. And yet his views that are pro-life views that are held by the majority of Christians are not necessarily shared by Francis Collins. There's also been some other problematic things about the things he's a spouse and the things he's funded at the NIH, right? Right. And that was, you know, when I started digging into the story, first, I looked at what is everyone saying and being troubled by the fact that it was pretty much a uniform reaction. There wasn't much room for discussion or debate. There were no other medical opinions, other medical

experts offered. But then I started looking at Francis Collins specifically. And as the director of the NIH, you know, he was not just platformed as a faithful brother. He was specifically, I can give you an example. Rick Warren called him a man of integrity, a man you can trust. And Christianity today presented him as a man who believes in the sanctity of human life. Well, if you're a pro-lifer and you look at his views, they are not probably going to align with your idea of valuing the sanctity of human life. So what Francis Collins, in his work at the NIH, has funded a lot of research that involves fetal tissue. It involves harvesting organs from at times full-term infants, full-term born babies. I don't know the accuracy of these charges, but some medical doctors,

there's been reporting, they've come forward saying some of these organs, kidneys, urators, could only have been taken from still live infants. So that's something I'm still looking into. But we do know that he approved grants for research at the University of Pittsburgh that involved grafting infant scalps onto lab rats. And so that's one issue. And then you turn to another initiative that Francis Collins very personally and boldly advanced. And that was a four-year initiative for what they're calling sexual and gender minorities to give money and research grants to specifically advance their health. That's how they're framing it. And some of that research has involved grants to a doctor in California who has given opposite sex hormones to children

as young as eight. Another reporter friend of mine who's been doing a lot of great work on this, Brandon Show Walter at the Christian Post, discovered that some of these children were foster kids. They had no one really looking out for them. And they're being given these kind of hormones that could be life altering permanently. And along with that research, there were also girls who were given mastectomies as young as 13. So some really, frankly, just appalling research going on there. And that's the kind of thing that I go, when you platform this man as a medical authority, I think that's something that a lot of Christians would want to know about his background.

Yes. And, you know, I could see some people saying, well, you know, he is the head of the NIH, but maybe he doesn't direct all of the funding for all of the different projects, which may be to some degree, some kind of excuse. but he has actually explicitly come out in favor of the so-called sexual revolution, the LGBTQ revolution and what he would call sexual minorities. He at least rhetorically is completely supportive of the idea that a man can become a woman and can identify as the opposite sex.

And this is someone again that Tim Keller, that Russell Moore, the David French, all of these people who consider themselves, conservative theologically at least, Christians are all praising and saying that he is a wonderful representative of Christianity when he apparently is starkly opposed to the biblical definition of sex, the biblical definition of gender. And certainly when life begins, as you mentioned, there's a 2010 New Yorker article in which he's quoted saying that he doesn't actually know when life begins, which is exactly why he approved of these grants to do the stem cell research.

and of course, as you mentioned, the grotesque experimentation on babies, aborted babies through the University of Pittsburgh and elsewhere. So knowing his explicit views on all of that, I'm wondering how he gained such a reputation for a man of integrity, as Rick Warren said, among the evangelical community. How did that happen? Well, you know, I think you have to look at the fact that he is an incredibly accomplished scientist. He mapped the human genome. He, you know, was one of the leading researchers on that project. He's somebody who is at the very pinnacle of government power. He, you know, he's running the NIH. It doesn't get much more bureaucratically powerful than that. So I think that certainly played a role. And I'll be honest, as you dug into how people say they met him, you know, I have to say there seem to be

a certain elitist circles going on. You know, Rick Warren mentioned that they met at Davos in Switzerland. Wow. At the World Economic Forum, yeah, which if you're not familiar, that is the gathering of the world's billionaires and heads of state. And so I think there was a sense maybe just being sort of starry-eyed at having access to somebody who travels in those, you know, very sort of toney elite circles. You know, so I'm not trying to impugn people's motives, but as you looked into France,

Collins. It was kind of funny, the places that he kept popping up again and again. In a Time magazine story, they named him one of the Christian intelligentsia and mentioned this very sort of elite book club that he attends with people like the New York Times, David Brooks and Pete Winner at the Atlantic. And so you just kept getting the sense that these are people who travel in very rare circles and that maybe that was part of the appeal was sort of having access to somebody who operates at such a high level in the world. I mean, not many of us are getting invited to Davos. Right. And I'm wondering how he got connected and how he decided or who tapped him to be kind of the publicist for masking, for vaccines, even just meeting virtually as churches.

That was something that he was advocating for last year. And in 2020, do you know what the process was? And Francis Collins kind of reaching out. out to Russellmore, Ed Stetser, you know, Rick Warren, these people that he was kind of being a messenger to and through, like, how did that happen? How did the messaging get formulated? Is there something like official systematic that was happening behind the scenes? Or if you know, was it kind of more organic? Like they were already friends and Francis Collins just called them up and said, hey, I know you've got big congregations. Like, let me come and talk to you guys about vaccines. Well, I mean, what I can tell you is, one, I wasn't able to.

get a whole lot of hard details on that because all of the men in this report that I wrote would not speak to me. They didn't want to talk about Francis Collins. So I mean, I can tell you that I did call Ed Stetzer. I called Russell Moore, David French, Rick Warren, Tim Keller. I did reach out to all of these people. And so none of them responded. I did hear back from Rick Warren's assistant who said, I'll let you know if he would like to say something. And I never heard back. I heard back from Russell Moore's assistant saying he has COVID, so he's not available to speak right now. But beyond that, I never heard anything. So I was never able to get hard details from them as to how that happened. But what I can tell you is that,

you know, as I was doing the research and kind of gathering facts for my story, one thing I was able to figure out is that this was very intentional. That was not hidden, that they weren't shy about being very clear about that. In some of that Time magazine reporting, they specifically referenced that, well, Anthony Fauci had been sort of sent out to speak to the secular media because he was perceived as a very strong evangelical Christian. They specifically sent Francis Collins out to use those connections in the evangelical world to spread, really what the government wanted spread as far as these are the lockdown policies we believe and these are the mask policies. And as you listen to all of these interviews, all of these webinars in totality, it was fairly dismissive even. I have to say it was even sneering.

There was one interview with NT Wright, famous theologian N2 Wright, where they sort of made a joke about these churches who think Jesus is my vaccine or Satan can't get into my church so they don't lock down. And it was just very dismissive. And it was sort of surprising to go, you know, we should be having a. discussion about this as believers. We should be having an open discussion about this. And instead it was, you know, take this man's word.

And I think that that was very deliberate. As you go through and listen to the podcast, as you listen to the interviews, he was really clear in saying, pastors, I exhort you. Please use your platforms to explain to your people that this is the right method of addressing COVID. And not just the right method medically, but that this. is a gospel issue. This is loving your neighbor. It is following Jesus to wear your mask. And so really a lot of things that moved into the range of legalism. And so you kind of went, we're not just talking about

a man's medical opinion. And so he was very much leveraging that. And he was very clear that I am here because you have a captive audience in your churches. And I am asking you to spread this message to your captive audience. We're talking about Ed Stetzer. We're talking about the Billy Graham. Center, talking about the Gospel Coalition, Christianity today. Russell Moore, those are the people, Entie, those are some of the people that interviewed him. Tim Keller had the joint interview. And as you said, that's what struck me last year when I was listening to some of these interviews is just the condescension that was expressed, which doesn't really surprise me because actually when I've heard Russell Moore talk to other people, I think it was an interview with David French, maybe sometime last year, maybe it was even in 2020 talking about critical race theory.

It was once again, it was kind of presented as this boogeyman, this thing that doesn't really exist in just these fearmongering evangelicals. They have no idea what they're talking about those rubs and we can just kind of dismiss them by laughing at them. And that's the exact same impression that I got in at least parts of these interviews with Francis Collins, as you said, kind of dismissing any Christian who said, you know, I think we have an obligation to meet in person as some kind of conspiracy theorist who didn't believe in COVID or believe that Jesus was their vaccine. When that's, you know, that's a straw man. That's not actually what pastors like John McArthur was saying when he insisted that his church continue to meet in person or any church that I know. But that's kind of how I think not just Francis Collins and these pastors kind of effectively persuaded people onto their side and into their perspective of everything going on.

But really, we've seen the CDC kind of do the same thing. We've seen the liberal secular media do the same thing rather than present to you the data showing, hey, this is why we believe that masks work or whatever it is, just kind of making you feel stupid and making you feel crazy. and like a conspiracy theorist if you don't agree with them. And yet, in one of these interviews, Francis Collins, he held up his cloth mask. And he said, this is a life-saving device. This is not an infringement upon your liberty. Both of those things are incorrect. Like now we actually have that approving.

And I mean, what we've kind of always known through common sense and even what Dr. Fauci said in the very beginning of all of this, that those cloth masks are not doing anything. And yet Francis Collins made everyone listening who didn't agree with him feel stupid for not, for not buying this line. I mean, it's crazy. Well, and, you know, getting at sort of that steering, it was really kind of hard to be honest with you going through some of this material and going, one of the, you brought up John McArthur, the moments that really struck me was when uniformly Tim Keller and Francis Collins agreed that John McArthur's church. They didn't specifically name John McArthur, but it was at the time that he was really in a high

profile fight with Governor Gavin Newsom of California. And they said that churches that are, were not shutting down, were refusing to obey lockdown orders and continuing to meet, as directed in Hebrew, were represented the bad and the ugly of good, bad and ugly responses to COVID. And that just kind of blew me away that I went, wow. So it wasn't even like, let's have an open conversation. We prayed through it. We feel led to do something different. And it was very specifically they're in the wrong here. I mean, the subtext is they're sinning by doing this. So that kind of blew my mind, to be honest with you.

And as you look at it, you go, from a reporterly fashion, you go, you kind of dug in and went, there were also some really strong personal motivations, as it turns out, as we're seeing in the massive news cycle now, for Francis Collins to dismiss, for example, the Wuhan lab leak theory as conspiracy. And they did. I mean, he specifically said in the Christianity Today webinar, this was human made. Mother Nature did not make this one. Well, it turns out that, you know, the NIH may have been funding some gain of function research there in Wuhan. And it now looks like we don't know for sure, but not only did the coronavirus very possibly come from a lab, it looks likely that it came from a lab. So you go, you guys may have helped him cover up something that the American public needs to know about.

Yes. In one of his, I don't have it actually in my notes, but in one of the speeches that he gave or interviews that he gave, he again, kind of laughed at this idea that this could have leaked from a lab. He called this a conspiracy theory and he said this definitely has natural origins. And like you said, that's probably not true that it has natural origins. And Francis Collins was also one of the people when we saw a lot of those emails come out, his emails, Dr. Fauci's emails, who said that, you know, they quickly have to take down this group of fringe, what he called fringe epidemiologists in the Barrington, Great Barrington Declaration, that gave a different scientific perspective of COVID and the mitigation measures that were being put in place from because of COVID. Francis Collins came out, you know, basically said that was propaganda, wanted to push back. at that when really he has been a purveyor of misinformation. Has there been any apology, any correction, any clarification from the people who,

the Christians who did platform Francis Collins, now that it's come out that he actually was spreading misinformation about things like masks, have they, have they said anything about that to correct the record? No. And, you know, I'm going to tell you that's been one of the really frustrating parts of covering this. Again, they specifically would not talk to me, but they're not a. it at all. And I want to point out something that happened in regards to how they were addressing

this once some of this information came out. And we learned that Francis Collins was, you know, potentially just wrong or possibly lying about some of these things. Christianity today ran an essay from Ed Stetzer saying that it is a conspiracy theory to spread things like the Wuhan Lab leak. Well, instead of doing the journalistically ethical thing, the thing that I would certainly be required to do here at the Daily Wire, which is acknowledge this was misleading. We made a mistake. Here's an editor's note. They just took the article down. The article disappeared. The only reason I was able to read it was because it was still available on the web archive on the Wayback Machine. So you couldn't disappear it entirely. But it's pretty bad when the secular journalism world has higher ethics than

the Christian media. And by that same token, none of them have been willing to talk to me. And And as far as I know, no other reporters are asking them. So they're not talking to anyone about it. You know, at the risk of hubris, what I've kind of been getting all week since the story broke is I've seen a lot of establishment types writing tweets and essays and social media posts about divisiveness and tone and how we can't let this disagreement divide us. Now, is this about me? Is this about this story?

I don't know because they don't say specifically. but this has been the only response and it's frustrating to me because I go, this issue is not about divisiveness. This issue is not about disagreement. There are, you know, some serious charges here, either of a lack of wisdom or potentially colluding to let the federal government spread inaccurate information or cover their trail on some things that they shouldn't have been doing. So for me, it's kind of stunning that I'm like, are we just all going to move on from this? And nobody has to answer any tough questions because nobody in Christian media is asking. And me working for a secular media outlet, they're not talking to me.

It's so interesting how the accusations of divisiveness always seem to be, always seem to be from the same kind of people going the same direction. If you are pro BLM, pro CRT, if you are pro whatever CNN, CDC talking point is out there, COVID, you are never accused of being divisive. Heck, if you say that John or imply the John McArthur's Church is part of the bad and the ugly of the response to COVID, that's not seen as divisive. That's seen as, I don't know, speaking the truth and love or just being compassionate and calling out what you think is dangerous and deadly, whatever it is.

But the accusations of divisiveness only rise up when it's coming from the conservative side, when it's coming from the conservative end saying, hey, you know what? I don't think the organization of Black Lives Matter is really standing for things that evangelical should stand for. Hey, I think that this racially divisive rhetoric probably isn't good. Or, hey, let's kind of question some of the narratives about COVID. Or maybe we should question this idea that in order to love our neighbor, we have to get a vaccine that doesn't stop infection or transmission. Like, let's talk about that. That apparently is being divisive. And, you know, I get that a lot. The accusation of a...

of not getting like, of not having the right tone or only ever applied to people on the right side of the aisle. But if you have some sassy social justice warrior who professes to be a Christian on the left side of the aisle who wants to, you know, speak truth to power, while then, you know, they should be applauded. And they're courageous, even though they're really just repeating mainstream secular talking points about things. So it's really interesting. What else has the response been to this? Has there been a positive response from people? Anyone who has said, wow, I didn't know this and this is really enlightening? Yes.

So I have gotten, from your average people, I've gotten a lot of messages. I've gotten a lot of encouraging notes saying we so felt this and we kind of knew this was going on. And we so appreciate that someone's talking about it. But, you know, I kind of just want to circle back for one second as far as the negative response and go, I had an interview scheduled coincidentally with Francis Collins. that was not related to this piece, but right after the piece came out, I happened to get a message from a PR company that I've worked with before and said, Francis Collins is working on this educational project with curriculum. Would you like a type slot to interview him? And I said, absolutely, I would like that time of slot. Yes, please. So I said, yes, I scheduled it. And I showed up for this Zoom interview. And I sat there and time of the interview went by. And I kind of went, okay, and I messaged to the PR people. And they said, oh, we're just running late, you know, hang on, hang tight. A few more minutes went by.

Ultimately, about 15 minutes went by. And suddenly the Zoom camera clicked off. And it said the meeting has been canceled. And it took me a little time to get a hold of someone and sort it out. But they told me that Francis Collins felt that you would not stick to the topics at hand, which I would just like to say, to be fair. I am a professional. I very much, I read through all the press materials. they said. Yes, I was going to ask them to have questions. But my point of all that being that he ran away from the interview that was already scheduled and was over time. And none of the Christian media has said, gosh, he needs to answer some questions. You know, they all kind of pretended like that didn't happen with one exception. And the reason I bring this up is Eric Erickson,

conservative host, who I like very much. He said he was bothered that Francis Collins did not go ahead with our interview. But he wrote an essay and said, I, yes. And he said, I have since called some of these people because I was troubled by Megan's reporting, which is fine. I'm glad he did that. But what troubled me was that once again, he does not specify who he talked to, what their specific defense was. It kind of said Francis Collins may not have known about some of this funding, even though he's the head of the NIH, and we always say, right, the buck stops with the leader. He is the leader. But the implication was he may not have known.

And I spoke to some people and these are good guys. And I like Eric, but I'm like, that is not an acceptable answer. It is not okay to say, maybe they didn't know. Maybe he didn't know. Well, we won't know because they won't talk. So somebody needs to be pressing them. I'm like, I'm going to assume at this point they're not going to talk to me. But I do kind of want to rally other Christian media.

their reporters to go ask them about this. So beyond that, average people in the pews, the response has been really wonderful. I've gotten just so many emails of people thanking me saying that it has brought up fruitful discussions at their churches, that they showed it to their pastors. And their pastors felt like their eyes were open to some things. And, you know, so I just said, I just felt really humble to be in a position to open up some discussion when it's been so frustrating for all of us to go, where was this debate and this open inquiry before this? Yeah. And you know, one part of Eric's article that I thought was interesting and you can respond to it

however you want to, it's okay if you don't necessarily have the answer to it. But I thought it was an interesting question. If a Christian is the head of some kind of secular company, is it okay for a Christian to be the CEO of a secular company, I don't know, like Hulu or Netflix or something like that, where you know that some of the content that is going out, a lot of the content that is going out and a lot of the money that is being spent is not being spent and the content that is being published is not being published in a way that necessarily glorifies God. Like, is it possible for a Christian to be in that kind of position?

And without completely endorsing everything that goes on in the company and still try to use their platform to the glory of God. because maybe that would be the defense of Francis Collins that I'm not even I'm not saying this is true because I don't believe this, but that he did the best that he could with the platform and the position that he had. And there were things that went on at the NIH that he didn't necessarily have direct control over or he didn't necessarily agree with. But that's just kind of how Christians have to interact with the public sphere.

That's just kind of how it goes. What would your response be to something like that? Because that was kind of what Eric Erickson, I think, was getting at in his article. Well, you know, two things I want to say about that. I can respect that as an argument. But the first thing to know is that that is something of a dodge. Because at least when we talk about the fetal cell research, for instance, Francis Collins is not someone who just had to sort of preside over it and say what he had to say to working government.

He has vocally supported fetal tissue research. And he has directed record level spending to it. He's the guy at the top of the food chain here. He did that. So I don't think it's possible to say, gosh, you know, we kind of wish that it wasn't doing, you know, that our branch of the government wasn't doing this. No, he has argued for it in a lot of interviews. He's very much on record for that. In fact, he lamented when the Trump administration pulled back funding for some of that kind of research. So I don't think that washes. The same thing goes with the trans research. When you look at the documents that are available and I link to them in my article, he said, quite clearly, I am an advocate. I am an ally. I believe in allyship. Now, we know that those words have meaning. So when you put that to the initiative and you put your face saying, I am a trans ally, and then you grant funding to that kind of research. I don't think you can hide from it and say, gosh, it's just something that was going on. I didn't necessarily agree with it.

Yeah. Now, also that said, I very rarely use this analogy. And I know that it is a bit dicey. But I don't think when we're talking about that kind of research built on the bodies of aborted babies, that it is too far to say, would you have said that in the Nazi era? Would you have said using the bodies of murdered people is okay if it furthers scientific research? And I think we're all sort of, that takes you back, but that is what we're talking about. We're talking about the bodies of murdered human beings that we're building a research complex on. And is that something that we want as Christians to support and say, well, it's going to happen anyway.

I mean, this isn't Hulu. This isn't Coca-Cola putting out some material that, you know, we just kind of want to shield our eyes from. We're talking about an industrial complex furthering murder. Yeah. And I just want to support what you've reported on and what you're saying now. We did an episode on Francis Collins several months ago and something that I found in the Federalist, they reported that Collins's NIH provided nearly $3 million, which you mentioned

this earlier, and tax dollars to support a fetal organ harvesting operation by the University of Pittsburgh using human fetal tissue ranging from six to 42 weeks gestation. So 42 weeks for people who don't know, that is full term and then some. So fully formed, we're talking seven, eight pound babies. And then, as you also said, he's not just kind of passively funding this experimentation, human experimentation when it comes to trans research. He had a message, an official message. This is not just the NIH. This is Francis Collins celebrating Pride Month last year.

He said, you know, celebrating Pride Month and recognizing the struggle stories and victories of those who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer intersects, and others under the sexual and gender minority umbrella. I applaud the courage and resilience it takes for individuals to live openly and authentically, particularly considering the systemic challenges, discrimination, and even violence that those and other underrepresented groups face all too often as a white cisgender and heterosexual man. This is evangelical hero, Francis Collins. I have not had the same experiences, but I am committed to listening. So this is just, I mean, this is queer theory and people know that that's under the umbrella of critical theory.

And I mean, okay, even if you said, well, he's a Christian and he doesn't personally, he doesn't want to personally endorse necessarily lifestyles that the Bible doesn't endorse. but he's just a part of his organization. That statement does not read that way at all. That is a full-throated endorsement. And on the NIH's website, they actually have a pronoun guide that includes not just like she heard, but like Zay and Zir, all. I mean, the craziest most absurd stuff. And you would think that as a Christian, it has a scientist, as a Christian scientist, not in the, you know, religious sense, but you know what I mean, that you would speak up.

I mean, isn't that also what it means to be a Christian in the public sphere that you speak up against destructive ideologies that are literally and very tangibly hurting the most vulnerable among us? I mean, that seems like that would be his responsibility. And he not only doesn't do that, he fully endorses it. And yet we have Tim Keller and Russell Moore and David French saying that he is a national treasure and a treasure to the church. I don't get it. I don't either. And what's really bothersome to me is I go, they somehow again and again don't have to answer for it. And that's what's so frustrating.

I go, I don't know. I don't know Russell Moore, for example, his heart motivations. But I know that these things were brought to his attention before he made that statement on Twitter about faithful service. Francis Collins is great faithful service and how God's going to use him next. These things were brought to his attention. So it almost felt to me like a belligerent response. Like, no, I'm going to go ahead and praise him. And so these questions were never answered.

How can you do that? They've never addressed. How do you praise someone who has so specifically undermined the biblical idea of male and female and biblical sexual ethics? They have not done that. And again, when you look at the actual initiative that he put out there, like you read from that pride statement, he has a letter at the beginning of that initiative saying that we're announcing this new funding for sexual and gender minorities, that this is something that I am putting

my face, my name, my signature to as something I'm proud of. And to me, if you're going to platform that person in your pulpits, if you're going to lend him your credibility and your integrity from the people who trust you, you should have to explain how do you rationalize his public positions? Because I hear a lot about him as Daniel in the halls of Babylon. And I'm like, I see a lot of Babylon on there. I see no Daniel. I see no refusing to eat the meat or to participate in their rituals. So I really can't understand it. Yeah. And you know, you and I have talked about, and I've talked about on this show, how much I have appreciated and learned from Tim Calvert's work. Like I would say that some of his books, like reason for God were so formative for me in the early years of my faith. And I'm very

thankful for that. I don't think that he is, obviously, he is not a thoughtless person. He's maybe one of the most thoughtful, publicly thoughtful Christians that we have. And so that would be my question, kind of what you just articulated, because I've seen him a few times kind of brush criticisms like this off to the side by saying, well, you can, you can praise people or you can like people, you can be friends with people that you disagree with. Just because I don't agree with Francis Collins on everything, I'm paraphrasing here. You know, I can still be proud of what he's done. at the NIH. But okay, even if that's true, even if you just see these as slight disagreements, which I would disagree about that these are just slight disagreements, okay, why don't you

publicly grapple with that for us? Like, why don't you talk about some of the stuff that you don't approve of that your friend Francis Collins worked and funded and endorsed and then talk about how you've kind of worked in that friendship and how you've maybe tried to share the gospel and infuse the gospel into the life of Francis Collins? Don't just brush it off to the side. And by the way, you're going to passive aggressively say that John McArthur is the bad and the ugly, possibly. That's possibly what they were implying, probably. John McArthur is the bad and the ugly of the COVID response.

But this person who endorses all of the anti-biblical things that we just talked about, that is like the national treasure and the person that we should look to as a Christian exemplar. It's crazy coming from Tim Keller, who I know knows better. Well, and what's really bizarre about it to me is that it wasn't just, you know, I don't know that I could rationalize me. Like, maybe I could rationalize a little bit of Twitter praise or, you know, goodgoing friend on your retirement. But it wasn't just that. That was kind of the point of the article that they then had him on all of their platforms that they, like I said, lent their credibility and integrity to him and brought him out and introduced him as someone, not just my friend. This isn't my friend, Francis Collins, with whom I have a few.

disagreements, but as the man you should be listening to in this uniquely troubling time, in this, you know, very confusing time, this is the man with the answers. So that was, you know, sort of the most stunning thing to me is I go, if you're going to present him as that, then you have to be able to defend his record or at least explain why you're willing to listen to him despite him having such divergent views from almost any normal Bible believer that you would talk to. Any person who is just going to church on Sunday who's trying to figure out how do I get through this? Well, almost all of them, if you look at polling, if you look at research, they have a very different idea of ethics than Francis Collins. And that has to be addressed.

Yeah, I agree with you. And I mean, it just comes down to a question that you ask in your article because one of the things that Francis Collins said in these interviews into these congregations was that you just have to trust the science and that it's a pastor's job to help their congregants trust the science, but is that a pastor's job? And what does that even mean? I mean, that in itself is a quasi-religious statement. It's a very dogmatic statement that we're just to trust the science. Okay, does trusting the science mean trusting what Francis Collins says about the origins of COVID, about a cloth mask being a life-saving device? Because if we trusted the science, and if that is synonymous with trusting the NIH and the CDC and Dr. Fauci, then that means we've believed a lot of

misinformation over the past two years. So why are we to trust the science? And is that even a biblical directive that pastors should be wholly not to? To me, that sounds a lot like spiritual manipulation. Well, you know, that was, and as I said, that was kind of what started me down this whole road, was the frustration of feeling that going that everybody has to be on the same page or, or you are somehow out of God's will for the church. That was appalling to me. I went, I do have questions. I do have some hesitations. And knowing that I was talking to Christian doctors, pediatric cardiologists on other subjects going, no, this information is not correct. We are also very credentialed. We are also very educated, intelligent scientists. And we don't believe that this is the science.

So you're right. That is such a dogmatic statement to say, trust the science, because science is not infallible. God is infallible. And so that is why on these issues, you go, where was the Christian liberty? Where was there the moment to say, I don't know. This might be sort of a food sacrifice to idols moment. Can we eat? Can we not eat? Let everybody be convinced in their own mind on this and let you want to talk about being divisive. Let's not divide over this. Let's let people answer their own master on this. And we will continue each of us in our spirits to do what we think is best through prayer, through our own Bible study. And yes, through, counsel, but through a multitude of counselors. The problem here was that there was only one counselor. All right. Last sponsor for the day. And that is Annie's Kit Club, specifically Annie's genius box. This is for your kids, ages 7 to 12. If you really want your child to become a critical thinker and a problem solver, Annie's genius box was created just for that. It's an excellent way to encourage your kids curiosity while providing fun activities that are as entertaining as are educational. So each month, your young scientists will get a new box bursting with three

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They can design a hovercraft, examine fossils, build robots, and so much more. Go to annieskickclubs.com slash alley, say 50% on your first box. That's annieskitclubs.com slash alley. and his kit clubs.com slash alley. And wow, I just think about it just makes me so angry when I think about even if they're not explicitly talking about John McArthur when they're kind of talking about the bad responses to COVID, the lack of public support from the people that we're talking about, especially when they won in court.

And so you can't even argue that they were defying. the law because they won. The court said that they were in the right, that they had the right, the John MacArthur's church had the right to continue meeting together and that Gavin Newsom's government was actually wrong in coming after them and trying to punish them for meeting. And the lack of public support for him and encouragement for what he was doing, simply being faithful, even if they disagreed, you know, that's really disappointing. You can say what you want about if you disagree with John McArthur, I don't, but on a variety of things. But again, I think it comes down to, it seems like for these people, that he's not in our club. He's not repeating

the same points that we are. We don't like his tone. He's a little bit too rude when he talks about things. And he's not as metropolitan, even though he's had a church in L.A., a very diverse church, by the way, very ethically and racially diverse church for the past 50 plus years in L.A. he's not considered a part of the club. So what he did, it just wasn't posh. It wasn't sophisticated. He didn't have Francis Collins, you know, sitting on stage with him. And to me, it really does seem to come down to that, like the Davos type elite people who just want control, just like they do in every segment of society.

We can talk about the Great Reset and all that. But we're going to get into that. It's crazy. Okay. So I want to quickly talk about it. I don't want to keep you for too much longer, although I could. We could talk for like, you know, several more hours, I'm sure. But I sent you this article that I'm sure that you've read, this New York Times article called

The Dissenters trying to save evangelicalism from itself by David Brooks, who I don't believe is actually a Christian or a conservative, which is always interesting. You read this article, correct? I did. Yes, of course. Yes. And so let me just sum it up a little bit for people. and then I want to get your take on it.

So he says in this article, there have been three big issues that have profoundly divided evangelicals, the white evangelical embrace of Donald Trump, sex abuse scandals and evangelical churches and parochurch organizations and attitudes about race relations, especially after the killing of George Floyd. I would actually agree. I would agree that those are three big things that have really divided the church. Of course, where he falls on this is basically the people who are pro-Black Lives Matter and the left-wing idea of systemic racism

and democratic so-called solution systemic racism. And the people who are against Donald Trump are really the people who are on the right side of evangelicalism, the right side of history. Again, to me it comes across is these are the more sophisticated, intelligent, knowledgeable, acceptable people.

And Russell Moore is in there, some writers from the gospel coalition. and he talks about Kristen Dumay, who wrote Jesus and John Wayne basically talking about the history of, you know, white patriarchy and tough guys and how it's marred Christianity. And then on the other side of it, he talks about how terrible people like Albert Mueller and World Magazine are. I write for world opinions. And so I could see why someone like David Brooks in The New York Times, they don't like it because it's very explicitly. conservative Christian. And so that's basically what it is. Like we are the conservative Christians. We're the Robs over here. We don't know anything. We're not really Christian, says the non-Christian

from the New York Times. And then these kind of sophisticated intellectuals, the Russell Moore's evangelicalism, are on the right side of it. So tell me what you thought about this article. Well, my first reaction, like, you know, it came out about a week after my article, no one would talk to me. And then half the people that I cited in my article, my reporting were cited in this. And, you know, my husband and I were kind of joking. Did I just get sub-tweeted in the New York Times? Yeah.

Because, you know, they didn't address anything I brought up, but it was sort of hailing all the people that I had mentioned and, you know, some very concrete reporting. And I actually happened to have come from World before I went to the Daily Wire. I was the entertainment at World for a number of years. And I worked on the Daily News Podcast World. So I knew a lot about the ins and outs of what was going on there. And what made me laugh so much reading this article is I went, once again, there is just sort of a broad statement made for which there is no actual specific detail. He said in there that young reporters learned not to pitch stories to Trumpist editors or something to that effect. And look, I worked there. There were no Trump. Not one, not one single editor that I would go, oh, that person was very MAGA. That world nagging. Yeah, not one. Yeah, there may be a couple of the Daily Wire, but at World Magazine, there were none.

Literally not one. So I read that and my mind just kind of exploded because I went, this is a lie. I don't know how else to put it other than David Brooks is being outright dishonest. Either he doesn't know and he's making an assumption based on something he was told or he's lying. So either way the information is incorrect and it has now been spread. in the New York Times, you want to talk about misinformation. And then I watched these so-called dissenters who are saving evangelicalism posts this story all over their social media platforms.

And I went, you are right now slandering a news organization with incorrect information. Is anyone going to ask about that? Yeah. Because that actually is wrong. That is a wrong thing to do. That is a wrong way to use your platform. And you all just did it. So that was really frustrating to me. And I'm sitting here watching it going, this is, one,

not a defense of what happened with Francis Collins to say that we're not Trumpists. And that is the frustrating thing that I go, gosh, he's been out of office for over a year. Can we now really talk about the issues we have without referencing Donald Trump? Yeah. No, it doesn't seem like they're able to. But he does talk about that, okay, it's not essentially Trump. It's something much deeper that's dividing evangelicalism. And that's probably true. Unfortunately, I do think it comes down to progressivism versus conservatism, at least in a way, not completely left versus right or Republican versus Democrat. I don't think it's so simple to categorize our disagreements within evangelical Christianity as that. But it is somewhat. It is whether you take a more progressive,

democratic stance on racial issues in the country or whether you take a more conservative stance on that, of course, from my perspective, a biblical stance on that. Right, right. Or it really does kind of come down to, in my opinion, when it comes to, like, journalists for the New York Times, who they see as good and bad within Christianity is whether or not that person votes Democrat. That seems to be what it comes down to, right? Well, and that was my point about saying they make everything about Trump that I go, yeah, he admitted that there were deeper issues, except that in order.

to sort of slime world magazine, he boldly lied and said they're Trumpist editors. That's how you know you can dismiss them. And there aren't, so you can't. So let's go ahead and talk about those deeper issues. And it's very weird to me to read that story and go, we are being told if you are more theologically conservative, if you have more orthodox views on gender roles and sexuality, you are the one who's political. You are the one who's, you are the one who, is being political. And I go, you're appealing to the New York Times as a defense. Who's being political here? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. This is one of my peeves and something that I talk about, talk about a lot. Of course, I mean, I do talk about politics. I'm open about that. That is what this,

you know, this, a huge part of what this podcast is about. But if I post something or one of my followers post something about something that Joe Biden does or something about abortion, they're accused of being overly political of putting the gospel to the side and putting politics first, which of course that's that's not what it is. But if someone on the other side posts a story, say they posted that story that turned out to be a false narrative that the Border Patrol agent was whipping migrants. Of course, that wasn't true. If someone repost that, well, that's not being political.

That's not being divisive. That's just standing for what's true. Or certainly you repeat talking points about race and the police. in this country, then that's not being divisive, that's not being political, that's just being biblical. Again, all of the accusations of divisiveness and tone always are leveled towards people on the right, whereas leftism, especially within Christianity, is almost just seen as quirky or is seen as neutral. Even- The defaults. Yeah. And I've even noticed among people, and I don't want to name too many names,

but people who identify as conservative Christians themselves, they are much more willing to invite more liberal, progressive Christians on their podcast, to do interviews with them, to speak at their conferences, then they would a Christian who is outspokenly pro-Trump or something like that. Because, again, especially, I think, when it comes to these social justice, racial justice issues, being liberal on those is seen as,

much more acceptable than being conservative on those. And then an article like this basically just dismisses the other side of the arguments as not Christian, as, you know, whatever it is, unintellectual, unintelligent. Again, just like Francis Collins said, not actually trying to grapple with, well, what is the anti-CRT, anti-social justice side really trying to say, where are we coming from when we are talking about gender roles, the importance of gender or race or whatever it is, these so-called divisive subjects, like, what is our actual argument? It seems that too many, including David Brooks, they don't want to grapple with that. There's a lot of really good opinions in world opinion. And like, we are edited very strictly. And we have to, we have to support

everything we say with research, with, you know, biblical references. If we're making a theological argument, we're not just putting things out there. I would love to see David Brooks and all the people who say that they are grieved over evangelicalism in this article, well, why don't you grapple with some of the arguments that we're putting forth? And let's see. Let's see which argument wins. They don't seem to be willing to do that. Yeah. And I can tell you that if that David Brooks editorial went through the editorial process at World, he would have been required to do that. He would have been required to go, okay, who are these Trumpist editors? What is the evidence that they're Trumpist? You need to talk a little bit about Kristen Dummez's views that

fall outside of mainstream evangelicalism. And so none of that happens evidently at the New York Times, which I would not expect it to. But, and you know, part of what's frustrating is that not only do they not answer these conservative figures, these theologically conservative, very biblical people who have been sort of defined by politics when I don't think they're political at all. They just adhere closely to biblical standard like a John MacArthur are being sidelines. They're being treated as though they're fringe. And that's been really frustrating to me, watching a John MacArthur or a Bodie Baccom or an Owen Strand or people like that.

Suddenly, they're not respectable to talk about or reference anymore despite decades. In John McArthur's case, something like 50, 60 years of faithful service. And suddenly he's quarantined over here. He's somebody that is not respectable to reference or talk about or engage with his ideas. So that's probably one of the most alarming things. to me is going, we're going to treat this person who has, you want to talk about faithful service, forget Francis Collins. Look at John McArthur. That is decades of faithful service. We're not going to engage with his ideas. We're just going to act like we're a little bit embarrassed of him.

Well, you know, Megan, if there's anything our society needs more of, it's people who are willing to be brave enough to criticize conservative Christians. There just aren't enough people doing that. So we really should applaud people like David Brooks and all of that. of the people that he includes in this article who are just so heroically saving you and I from ourselves because we, you know, we just don't have any idea what's going on. And so thank you so much to Russell Moore and David Brooks for pointing out where we are wrong. We just, we need more people with that kind of courage and gumption that are willing to criticize right-wing Christians. We just don't get it enough. Because there's such a huge cost to pay, right? If you do that,

you get praised in the New York Times, you get new deals with the Atlantic, you get plum seats at CNN, and I'm hearing NBC. And so suddenly, yeah, there's a huge cost to pay. Maybe it is a cost. You have to now engage with a lot of establishment media. And they love it, though. They love it. I wouldn't want to pay that cost.

No, I wouldn't. But that's, I feel like that's just the club that they, again, I don't know their hearts. It just seems like this is an elitist club. And basically my husband and I talk about this a lot, that this group kind of that we're talking about, really they're embarrassed. They're embarrassed that people who call themselves Christians aren't as worldly when it comes to. Well, I don't want to say that in everything because I know they would argue that, you know, supporting Trump is worldly. But it seems like they're just embarrassed that we can't get on board with some left wing arguments about race and social justice and maybe. even gender, although I would say most of them would call themselves conservative on that. They're really just embarrassed by us. They're embarrassed that we maybe in their mind don't have the same credentials as they do, don't have the same background as they do, aren't writing for the Atlantic and aren't parroting the talking points of the New York Times. And they would really

rather associate themselves with atheist anti-Christian writers at the New York Times, it seems, than fellow Christians who happen to have a different perspective than them on politics. Yeah. And you know, you don't want to be just continually critical, but there is a moment when you go, you know, a small thing that happened this week with Tim Keller praising Stephen Colbert, late night host. You know, he's very crass. He's very left wing. He's been very critical of Christians. And I think it was just hard for a lot of people to understand, okay, Tim Keller. you don't ever praise anyone coming from the right side of the political spectrum, and then you hold up and praise Stephen Colbert. So I don't think that the reaction to that moment was so much about him praising Stephen Colbert

in that moment. If people felt like over time in recent years that Tim Keller had been open-minded and willing to engage with ideas coming from the more theological conservative, more politically conservative wing, then I think people would not have reacted to that the way that they did and there was some negative criticism. But I really think it's just because they go, gosh, the punching always comes towards the right. It always goes in that direction. And, you know, look, it's going to get more embarrassing. It's not going to get less embarrassing to be a believer. So I kind of am in the, sorry to interrupt you. Let me just play that clip of Stephen Colbert so people can

know what we're talking about. And yes, there were a lot of people that we are right now talking about who praise this clip and I'll get your reaction to it. I was wondering, is there any, you know, does your faith and your comedy ever overlap? And does one ever win out? I think ultimately, us all being mortal, the faith will win out at the end. But I certainly hope when I get to heaven, Jesus has a sense of humor. So a lot of people were praising him for kind of being sophisticated in this answer, which I'm not saying it was bad. I'm not saying I expected him to lay out the Roman road right there.

I don't believe you have to present the entire gospel message when someone asks you about your faith. So, you know, some things that he was saying, he was saying I get. But I was immediately a little skeptical because of the people that I saw praising him, specifically someone like Glenn and Doyle. I was like, oh, well, you know, I'm just, if people like that are saying that this was a great gospel moment, I'm just not so sure that this is something that we want to elevate. Because honestly, there wasn't very much gospel in it. It was an interesting point. Yeah. But it maybe it sounded kind of eloquent, but I don't know. I'm not sure

if I walked away from that understanding anymore about the gospel or what Stephen Colbert thinks about the gospel. Right. And I think that was kind of part of it. And it's been a couple days since I saw it, but he says something about, you know, death doesn't win or, you know, something about death. And it was fine. I mean, you know, you go, if you take that isolated moment for what it was, it was fine. But it didn't make me go, oh, Stephen Colbert is this deep intellectual Christian thinker that we should all look to. It was more Stephen Colbert is a, and, and, you know, a left-wing entertainment elite. And so we're looking for an opportunity

to praise him for something. And I went, why are we doing that? Why do we look for an opportunity to praise someone who everything else about their public persona does not affirm biblical ideology, biblical sexual ethics, biblical outlook on just about anything?

So it just seemed like this sort of odd desperation to go, is there some, oh, there's a moment. There's a moment with a left. left-wing personality that we can praise. And I guess I just wonder, what is that impulse? Why do you feel the need to do that? And again, I think if it were coming from a place where, you know, maybe Tim Keller goes through and praises all sorts of public figures for all sorts of statements about the gospel, people might have responded differently, but it feels like how often does Tim Keller cite a celebrity

and would he praise say, I don't know, a Matt Walsh or a Ben Shapiro. Yeah. I would love to see that. Yeah, me too. And yeah, I don't want to put like, I don't want to hold Stephen Colbert to too high of a standard and say that no one can agree with or praise what he said. But again, I think it's the disparity in who is lifted up by someone like Tim Keller and who is not.

and what counts as, what does count as like a good witness in secular society as a Christian? Is it Stephen Colbert? Like, is he the person who is consistently, you know, coming out and representing Christ and the gospel? I, not even just because he's on the left, I would simply say no. I mean, did he, and I'm not saying that he should have, but did Tim Keller or any of these people say, wow, you know, Kanye West coming out with this gospel album? that's just like so this is how you become a Christian witness in society. No. And maybe you could say that the left and the right both do this. Like maybe the right shouldn't have elevated Kanye West the

way that they did. Although I think at, you know, one point we thought this is real repentance and regeneration and all of that. But I do think that on the right and the left, we do both have a tendency to be like, oh, this person that we like, we want them to be a Christian so badly. And if they say one thing, they were like, oh, yes, yes, yes. They know the gospel when, you know, maybe they don't. So to me, this was an example of that happening on the left side. I'm sure it happens on the right as well. So maybe just something that we all need to be careful of. All right. That's all I have. Do you have any more thoughts? Any more thoughts to add to any of this? And where can people find you and read and share your story and all that good stuff? Well, you actually did have one more thought on the Stephen Colbert

thing. And it was more that Tim Keller and everyone kind of in pushing back against the reaction, we're going, well, look at how Paul was at Mars Hill. Look at him speaking to the Athenians. And I'm like, yeah, but Stephen Colbert does not have the track record as a Paul where you go, now look at everything else he's saying. Because in this instant, you could, you'd have to go, okay, don't look at anything else he's saying. Only look at that one thing.

Yeah. So I was a little like, okay, let's not pretend like Stephen Colbert is Paul. Yeah. So anyway. Not many people are, to be fair. Not many people are. But again, it's a part of this club. It's a part of this elitist club.

it seems like that that kind of gives you some points. Unfortunately, I think it gives you some points in Big Eva, too. And that's a shame. And I'm just very thankful for your reporting. I know that this is kind of niche, but there are a lot of people out there who care about this. There's a lot of evangelicals who are interested in this. And despite what David Brooks says, people will continue to read you. People will continue to read world opinions because there's a need. There's a desire for that. There's a demand for it. And we're going to keep. trying to meet that demand. So thank you for doing your part in that. Where can people find you? Absolutely. Well, you can find me at the Daily Wire. I've got some more reporting coming up.

And we also have a great, very different from Allie Beth's podcast, a daily news podcast called Morning Wire. And I do a couple segments on there a week. So if you haven't subscribed to Morning Mart, it's quick, 15 minutes, in and out, news you need to know. So find me there. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate you elevating the story and talking about it because we need to be talking about it. Yes, for sure. Thank you so much. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself.

On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. we ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.