Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 582 | How to Share the Gospel with LGBTQ People | Guest: Becket Cook

Episode Date: March 15, 2022

Today we're talking to Becket Cook, host of "The Becket Cook Show" on YouTube & Author of the Book "A Change of Affection: A Gay Man's Incredible Story of Redemption". We discuss Becket's testimony, how he went from being raised Catholic to spending his college years and early adult life with no faith, very much caught up in the gay culture of California, to his conversion experience and redemption in Christ. We also talk about how to approach different situations in which Christians often find themselves at odds with secular culture. Should Christians attend their gay friends' weddings? Should they use transgender people's "preferred pronouns"? Becket gives his thoughts on how to navigate these scenarios in the most biblical and loving way possible. --- Today's Sponsors: Birch Gold helps you hedge against the US dollar by investing in something of real value - gold & silver! Text 'ALLIE' to 98-98-98 to get a free info kit on gold — no obligation to get this info! ExpressVPN lets you browse more anonymously - ISPs cannot see your online activity, plus your data is encrypted for maximum protection. Secure your online activity by visiting ExpressVPN.com/ALLIE & save an extra 3 months free! Good Ranchers delivers steakhouse quality beef & better-than-organic chicken straight to your doorstep with each piece individually packaged to make it easy to cook what you want & save the rest, which keeps you from wasting anything. Go to GoodRanchers.com/ALLIE & save $30 off your order! --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hey, guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Tuesday. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com slash All right, guys. We've got a very fun show for you today. We are talking to Beckett Cook. He is the host of the Beckett. Cook show. He wrote a book called A Change in Affection a Few Years ago, and that is about his conversion to Christianity and going from an actively gay lifestyle to now an obedient Christian lifestyle. And so we're going to talk about that. I'm sure that there's plenty in the conversation that some people will find very controversial. But for the majority of my audience, you are just going

to be incredibly encouraged. The power and the great. grace of God in redeeming people's lives. I just love hearing people's testimony. There is such power in a testimony and it just reminds you of the sweetness and the goodness of the gospel, the faithfulness of God, the relentlessness of God to pursue whomever he is going to pursue in whatever ways he is going to pursue them. I love that about God and I love hearing individual stories of that redemption in their own lives. And so you're going to be so encouraged. And then we're also going to ask him some questions towards the end of the conversation. We're going to ask him, okay, do you attend the gay wedding of a friend as a Christian?

Do you use preferred pronouns as a Christian? What about that verse in 1st Corinthians that says that we're not even supposed to associate with someone who calls themselves a Christian and is sexually immoral in any way or who is an idolater? It lists a whole host of sins. What does that actually look like? Do we exclude them from our lives? How do we love these people in a way that is? truthful but also gracious. We're going to get into all of that. And before we do, I do want to say

that yesterday I was in Louisiana, go listen to yesterday's episode that we had already had pre-recorded with a professor. You're going to love it. You're going to absolutely love yesterday's conversation if you haven't listened to it. Another possibly controversial conversation because we talk about race in America. And we talk about the claim of systemic racism. And he, He has some non-mainstream views about that that are very interesting. And I know you're going to learn a lot from it. But yesterday we were in Louisiana. I went to Monroe, Louisiana.

And I was on the Unashamed podcast with Phil Robertson and with Al Robertson. And you're going to love that episode whenever it comes out. I don't know when it's going to come out. But then also I interviewed them for my show. that episode will come out at a later day, but I just love them so much. I know a lot of you guys love them. I posted yesterday on Instagram that I was going to Louisiana. A lot of you were asking me what I was doing in your state. I was there very quickly, flew there yesterday morning. And then, guys, my flight got canceled. I got to the airport and my flight home got canceled.

And I had to drive home last night. And that was kind of crazy. But I'm here. I'm safe and sound to bring this content to you today. So, yeah, lots to look forward to, lots to look forward to in Alleyland for different interviews coming out. But let's get to this interview. Without further ado, here is our new friend, Beckett Cook. Beckett, thank you so much for joining us. I've been wanting to have you on for a really long time, so I'm so glad this worked out. Can you tell everyone who may not know who you are and what you do? Thank you, Ali. Yeah, I live in Los Angeles. That's where I am right now. I, for many, many years, I was a production designer in Hollywood. But when my book came out in 2019, I kind of lost, I kind of got canceled in Hollywood.

Yeah. Because my book is pretty scandalous. So that's, that's, so now I'm pretty much in full-time ministry. I kind of travel around the country, speak at conferences, at churches. And I'm writing another book. And I also have a YouTube show called the Becca Cook show. So that all keeps me pretty busy. And I went to seminary in 2014 at Talbot School of Theology at Biola.

So I knew God was kind of pulling me out of the production design world and into more kind of full-time ministries. So that's where I am now. And for people who have no idea, they're coming into this, just having heard of Beckett Cook, what was your book about? Why was it so scandalous? Scandal. So it's called a change of affection. and my affections dramatically changed 12 years ago. So when I was very young, I don't know, in elementary school, probably fifth or sixth grade,

I started to realize that I was attracted to the same sex, which was a really strange phenomenon to happen when you're a kid in Dallas, Texas, when it's very much taboo to be gay or even to have those feelings. And so I kind of wrestled with that and sort of had this like external life where I was friends and popular with people in school, but then on the inside I was dealing with this kind of struggle and didn't really know how to process it. And then in high school, that's when kind of the damn broke because I ended up becoming best friends with someone who at Jesuit who was going through the same thing. And we started going out in Dallas to Gay Bar. I mean, I was like 14 and 15 years old, going to gay bars in Cedar Springs, Oklahoma, and going to the

Start Club and all these. And your parents, did they have any idea what was going on? No. Well, not really because I was the youngest of eight kids. And so by the time my parents got to me, they were just very hands off. They were like, just do whatever. We don't even know what you're doing. And, you know, I was making straight days in school.

so they didn't really, they didn't really pay attention for better for worse. I think for worse. But so I had this kind of leeway to move about the cabin freely. And so I explored gay culture in high school. I was, you know, pretty precocious. And then the same thing, I went away to college and the same thing happened. I became best friends with somebody who was dealing with this, you know, same-sex attraction. We came out to each other.

and again, I had like a confidant and a, you know, partner in crime in college where we could go out and no one really knew. And in high school and in college, I was in the closet. And I never thought being gay was kind of a permanent thing in my life. I thought it was just going to, I thought, you know, it was weird. It was like, this is what I'm feeling now. I'm just going to go with these desires. But eventually I'm going to, you know, have a wife and kids. Right.

So I never really thought of it. interrupt, but you were Catholic because you went to Jesuit, you said, which for those who don't know, that's a Catholic school in Dallas. So you were raised Catholic. I was raised Roman Catholic, yes. Gotcha. Yeah, a big Catholic family. And so, and then after college, that's when, after college, I moved to Tokyo with my best friend. And that's when it became really my identity. Because while I was in Japan, while I was in Tokyo, my roommate invited his friend from Texas to come visit us, and his friend and I ended up falling in love. And I can't say his name, but it was a guy. And we ended up falling in love. And that's when it was the first time I'd ever had that

experience. And that's when it was like, okay, this is definitely who I am. This is my identity. It's immutable. This is the way, this is my life now. And I came out to everyone. I came out to my family, my friends. And that's when I just kind of, that's when it became my full, full identity. Yeah. And what does that feel like? The feeling of going from, okay, this is just kind of maybe a fleeting feeling that I have

or this is a phase that I'm going through. You said in high school and maybe some in college, you thought, oh, I'm still going to grow up and get married to a woman and have kids. what was that transition like and why do you think that transition happened from these are just some feelings that I have that may or may not be fleeting to, okay, this is now permanently, immutably who I am. Was it the falling in love that made you feel that way or were there some other things going on that kind of made you say, nope, this is, this is me? I mean, a part of it was the culture around me because it was becoming more and more accepted in

the culture. But it, the tipping. point really was the falling in love aspect because that's that's when I just felt like okay this is I'm all in and I you know I didn't I no longer cared about what people thought of me or I no longer cared about this this because it was still there was kind of stigma attached to it in the early 90s and so so I but I didn't care and I was just like I told everyone and I told my family My parents' reaction was actually really lovely. And again, part of it was because I was the youngest of eight. But they were just very calm.

And they believed that homosexual behavior was sinful. I mean, they were very clear on that. But they were super loving to me in spite of that. And they didn't really, you know, there were no kind of dramatic scenes of like throwing me out of the house or, you know, quoting scripture to me because they already knew that what they knew that I knew what they believed. So there was no need for that. So they were just over the years, they were so, so sweet and lovely to me, which I really, really appreciate.

But, but, but, and then I, and then after that, after, you know, coming back from Tokyo, I moved to Los Angeles in 1993. And that's when, that's when it kind of really, really got shifted into high gear because when I got to LA, I got into this, you know, really fun group of friends all from the East Coast Ivy League schools, like really smart, ambitious. There were straight people, gay people. And all those friends now run Hollywood. They literally create all the content that the world sees now, which is crazy.

And so once I got into this group of friends, I mean, and I was in Los Angeles, I just felt, like so liberated and free. And like this is, no, this is my life. And I cycled through five really serious relationships with guys, uh, live in.

We live together. And so, and I, and I, we, you know, we did everything in Hollywood. Because all of my friends were in the business.

They were aspiring writers, actors, directors, producers, producers. We all wanted the same things. We wanted to make it big in Hollywood, which they all did in a big,

big way. And we all wanted to have these kind of extraordinary experiences, which we were having in spades because we were, we were always invited to the, you know, movie premieres every week and to the Oscars, the Emmys, the Golden Globes and the after parties and the vanity fair parties. And all these, I was always kind of just invited to things. Like I would end up at Ariana Huffington's house all the time, you know, for cocktails or having dinner with Tom Hanks and Merrill Streep, you know, and just all these things. So I was having these great experiences. And our other thing was we all wanted to find the want, true love. And so we were always kind of on the on the search for that. And, and, you know, as I said, every time I would get into a relationship with the guy, I'd be like, okay, this is the one.

Yeah. He's going to save me. This is like, you know, this is amazing. And of course, it would end in two years. It was always like the shelf life of two years on these relationships. Yeah. I think a lot of people can relate to that. And when you say that you thought that this person was going to save you, what, I mean, what do you mean by that?

What were some of those feelings? Why do you think, and maybe this is just how everyone feels when they're searching for the one, but why do you think you felt like, oh my gosh, I have to find the one. It's a form of like romantic salvation that I'm seeking. What do you think that was in you that kind of created that desperate longing? I think it was a longing for purpose, really, because I have. had no, I knew, I knew that God was never an option for me because I was gay. So I was very clear. So you were not, you didn't even identify as a Christian or a Catholic at this point.

No. And even growing up in the Catholic Church, I never, I never connected with it at all. I just thought it was kind of theater, you know, and, and I, I never felt any connection really to God growing up. And so, so yeah, I think I was looking for me. meaning and purpose in my life. Because I, that, and the only way without God, the only kind of purpose you can get is either through your career or through a relationship. I mean, or I don't, I mean, there may be other ways, but those are the main ways. And so that's kind of what I threw myself into was my career and was in these relationships.

And I thought, and especially in the relationships, I thought the guy would, you know, somehow really give my life this like purpose and meaning and and it felt that way, you know, at least in the beginning of the relationships, it felt like I had some sort of purpose. But then it would of course vanish over time. Yeah. So you are in, what stage of your life? Are you in 20s, 30s still? In my 20s, yeah. Okay. So that's when you were living in L.A. with this great group of people. You were going through a series of really serious relationships. And at what point did you realize, okay, these people that I'm, it sounds like also in addition to like wanting purpose, you really wanted to be known. We all want that intimacy. You want to be

fully known by someone and fully loved for everything you are. I think that is a desire that all of us have. And maybe your disconnect from God was also causing you to kind of seek that intimacy and that fully knownness in someone else. But when did you really? realize, okay, I've tried that several times and it's not actually giving me the thing that I'm looking for. It's not actually fulfilling me. Well, you know, in these kind of relationships, especially in gay male, I think, especially in gay male relationships, there's this, it's not unconditional love. It's always quid pro quo. And it's always kind of like, as long as I have a great career and you have great abs, like we're good to go. But like the second you,

You slip. Like, you know, a lot of my friends won Oscars and, uh, and Golden Globes and all these things. And it's like suddenly, like if my friend Dustin Lance Black won the Oscar for the movie Milk, then suddenly he's like, okay, like he, you know, the quit pro quo changes. So, so, um, it was always that kind of pressure. I, when I was in these relationships, I always felt like I was walking on eggshells and that, you know, just the one wrong move and it would be over. And, and, And that was actually the case. And there was a lot of infidelity, a lot of, you know, lying and drama. And so I think, you know, after the fifth relationship, I just kind of was like, I mean,

I was already starting to feel this in general in my life. I was just kind of like, is that all there is to a fire? Is that all there is? You know, I was getting to that point of the law of diminishing returns we're setting in. And I just felt like, you know, I've been doing this for so long. I've been going to, you know, I would go to parties. I would go to Princess House, you know, for a private concert in his backyard and tell all these things.

And I would go to Fashion Week in New York and Paris. And I thought, you know, for a long time, those shiny objects sustained me. And my friends sustained me because they were so fun and interesting and smart. and but after you know because even since high school after like 20 years of doing these kind of things and purchasing these kind of shiny objects you just start to I in my life I just started to feel like I can't do this anymore like this isn't going to sustain me for the rest of my life I don't know what I don't know what I'm going to do but I can't keep just doing this Hey, this is Steve Day.

If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this Dei show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.

So tell me what it was like hearing the gospel, maybe for the first time or in a real way the first time, or understanding it. And tell me about becoming a Christian when and how and why. Yeah, well, it started in Paris in March of 2009. I was at Fashion Week. I used to go to Fashion Weeks a lot in New York and Paris. And so I was at Fashion Week. I went to a bunch of the runway shows. I went to a bunch, and they have after parties.

And I was at Stella McCartney's after party. And everyone from the fashion world was there. Kanye was there. And people were dancing and drinking champagne. And it was at this nightclub in the middle of Paris called Regine. And I just, that's when it really hit me. that I just felt overwhelmed with emptiness. And I just kind of felt like,

this cannot be my life. Like, this was fun. This was a great, you know, I had a great time for a long time, but this cannot be my life anymore. And I ghosted the party. I went back to my, the apartment I had rented.

And I was kind of up all night in a panic about my future. And then I, you know, I get back to L.A. a couple days later, and then cut to six months later, I'm with my best friend who is gay. And we, you know, we used to do the kind of, we used to hang out all the time, like every, almost every night and every weekend. And on the weekends, we would go to brunch in Venice. We would go shopping in West Hollywood or Beverly Hills, which is gay church, brunch and shopping.

And then we would go to this coffee shop in Silver Lake and hang out because it was like, it was kind of, you know, it was always kind of. active and crowded and fun people, interesting people, and friends we knew. So we were there that day and we were chatting and we know suddenly we look over and the table next to us is a group of young people with Bible physical Bibles on the table. And we, I had never seen a Bible in public in L.A. in my life. So it was a shocking sight. And my friend was was shocked too.

we were both like, what is going on? Like, this is bizarre, especially in Silver Lake, which is a very kind of progressive enclave of L.A. And so we were half repulsed and half intrigued by them. And so we ended up. Why do you think you felt some feelings of repulsion? Because it was just like, because historically for, you know, for us, evangelical Christians

and we just kind of I assume they were just evangelical Christians you could kind of tell so evangelical Christians were always the enemy in gay culture and so so that was

it was kind of residual revolt it wasn't really I wasn't like super revolted by them but it was just kind of that residual like ooh like Christians but then I was kind of like wait a minute I don't really know what my life is about

maybe they have some answers and so it's like a Christian fantasy come true, I turned to them and I'm like, hey, are you guys Christians and what's the gospel? No way. By that time in my life, I had really, by that time of my life, I was a practical atheist. Like I honestly believed that the Bible was an ancient myth like any other ancient myth. I believe God was a fairy tale. I didn't believe in it. And but when I saw them, And I just felt like, you know, what have I got to lose? Because because of that night in Paris six months before, I just thought, you know, maybe I just want to talk to them and see what they say.

And so I honestly didn't even remember like what the gospel was really. I mean, I kind of knew obviously vaguely, but I just needed to hear it. So I turned to them and I just said, you know, what do you guys believe? Because I grew up Roman Catholic. I don't really remember. and they said, well, we go to an evangelical church in Hollywood on sunset. And, you know, they told me basically the gospel. And this is what we believe.

And of course, I get to the $64,000 question. And I say, what is your church in Hollywood believe about homosexuality? And they said, well, we believe it's a sin. And I, in that moment, I really, I wasn't surprised by that answer. And I really appreciated how honest they were and that they were. didn't try to dodge the question and, you know, kind of obvious gay. Like, I was glad that they just said it, you know, just outright. And, and so in that moment, I thought, okay, what if I've, what if God does exist? I mean, there's a slim chance he does exist. And what if homosexual

behavior is wrong, is sinful? And what if I've built my entire life on a false foundation and I don't know it? Like, that, that's a possibility. Yeah. And so, So I was receptive. I was open to hearing that from them. Whereas like a couple of years before or five years, 10 years before that, I would have been like, you guys are crazy. You need help. You need therapy.

But I was open to hearing that. And then they invited me to their church the following Sunday called Reality L.A., which I still attend. And so I had no idea what I was getting into because I had never been to an evangelical church. I didn't know what it was like. I didn't know what it looked like. I was used to stained glass windows and smoke and bells. Totally different than the Catholic Church. Yeah, I was used to vestments and hats and stuff. And so I show up. I didn't actually, I didn't know if I was going to go because, you know, it's a big deal to kind of, yeah. It was like betraying your,

your community. Like, you know, if anyone ever found out, besides my best friend who was there, It just would have been very weird and awkward. What was his reaction? Was he kind of like, what are you doing? He didn't, he was intrigued as well. And he didn't really know that I was going to, that I was going to follow through and actually go to the service the following Sunday. And I didn't either because I spent the whole week kind of going back and forth.

Like, am I going to do this? Is it so weird? If I go and it could be humiliating. And what if nothing happens? nervous about people being judgmental or right away casting you? That wasn't the fear? No, not at all. No, I just thought, you know, what if, my biggest fear was, what if nothing happens?

And then I'm just still stuck in this kind of no man's land of like no purpose in my life and no meaning. And so I ended up that Sunday morning, I woke up and I just was like, I guess I'm going to do this. And I drove to the, it meets in a high school auditorium. in L.A. public high school, which is funny. And so I walked in and it was just kind of this really plain auditorium. And the worship band was playing.

And I remember thinking when I walked in, I just was like, oh, Christian music. That's so weird. I forgot that existed. Gross. But then I was like, wait a minute. It's actually nice. And so I and then I found a seat. I sat near the front and by myself.

and the pastor comes out and he starts preaching on Romans chapter 7. And as he's preaching for an hour, just things start to shift in me. It's crazy. As he was preaching, I was hanging on every word and I was riveted to the sermon because I was like, wait a minute, everything he's saying is true. And I don't know why I feel that way right now. What's going on? And I just was, I didn't want him to stop preaching because I was like, this is amazing.

Like, this is the gospel. This, it turned everything I, I believe, I thought religion was on its head. And I was like, this is good news. This is crazy. And so after the sermon, he left, he, before he left the stage, he said, there's people on the side of the church on the prayer ministry. And if you need prayer for anything, you can go ask. So that was another kind of moment of like, do I,

go over there if I do. It's kind of people might be watching me and it's weird. But I was like, whatever, I'm here. So I went over to this guy and I said on the prayer team and I said, you know, I don't know what I believe, but I'm here. And again, it's a Christian fantasy come true. And he says, well, can I pray for you? I'm like, yes. And he, you know, lays his hands on me and he starts praying. And it just felt so loving. And I was like, how does this random straight guy love me so much and care about me so much?

And it just felt very powerful. And then I thanked him, I went back to my seat. And there's another 25 minutes of worship music playing. So the lights are kind of dim. I go to a reform church, but this sounds kind of wacky, but the lights are dim.

And so, I, as soon as I said, everyone else was standing and singing and worshiping, I sit down and all of a sudden the Holy Spirit just flut, like, like overwhelms me. And in that moment, God revealed himself to me. And I'll never forget, I mean, in my mind, he said, God said, I'm God, Jesus is my son, heaven is real, hell is real, the Bible is true, welcome to my kingdom. And I was like, and it's like Isaiah when he's in the temple and he sees the holiness of God and he comes undone. That's what happened to. I just started bawling and bawling.

Like I was crying harder than I had ever cried in my life, except as an infant. But because I was just born again, I was kind of an infant. And then so I was retching for the next 25 minutes. And then I got in my car and I drove home. I didn't even know how I made it home because I was in such a state. And I got into bed to take a nap because I was so overwhelmed. And it happened again. It was like Moses in the cleft of the rock and God passes by with his glory.

God was like, let me show you some more of my glory. And it just was like this huge dose of God's presence again. And I was like, whoa. And I just burst into tears again. jumped out of my bed in the middle of my bedroom. I was like, God, you have my whole life. I'm yours. I'm done.

And I knew in that moment that homosexual behavior was a sin. I knew it was wrong. I knew it. Yeah, I knew immediately. I knew it wasn't who my identity anymore. I knew that dating guys was no longer a part of my future, but I didn't care because I just met Jesus. And I was like, I'm going to go with that guy.

Good riddens to that life. So this wasn't a product. of, you know, a process over time of people really teaching you, hey, here's why we believe homosexuality is wrong. Here's what the Bible says. At that point, you didn't even really know what the Bible said about it, right? Besides what the Christians had told you originally when you saw them. Well, I knew. I mean, I was, I was aware of what the Bible, because I, you know, I grew up in the Catholic Church and I knew what the Bible had to say about homosexual behavior. But it was so, God had so much grace on me that day. First of all, the fact that he,

he that all happened the very first time I went to a church was remarkable and uh and he had so much grace and he made it so clear just it was like an instant I just knew that this is not who I am this is not my life and and good and I was like and I still to this day am in shock about I mean that was 12 years ago September that was September 20th 2009 and I'm still stunned by it but I have zero desire to go back to Egypt and to go back into bondage. I have no desire. Like I, I, I'm so, like, I'm so thrilled that God rescued me out of that darkness and out of that life because that life, what the media, you know, what the media doesn't show,

obviously is that life is very dark, especially for gay men. And so I, what do you mean by that? there's just so much like it's like the glue the glue that holds that community together there's three i think there's three things that that hold it together and this may i mean this may i mean obviously there are exceptions i'm just generalizing but uh alcohol drugs and sex like that's what really binds that community together and at least when i was going growing up and going through that that whole thing. So I was thrilled to be out of that bondage because it really is. It's such a, I mean, so much goes on behind the scenes that people don't talk about and just like at

parties and there's there's people in bedrooms doing crazy things. And it's just, it's just a dark world. And I'm so happy to be out of that world and into God's marvelous light. I mean, it's just so, it's so, I can't even express how amazing. Obviously, you know how amazing it is, but it's just amazing to be in Christ. There's a couple things that I want to highlight and get your thoughts on. One thing that I noticed when you were describing the reaction of your parents and then describing the reaction and the response, the reception that you got at the church that you first visited, you talked about their sweetness, about their kindness, and about just the love.

that they showed you. A lot of Christians who know that homosexuality is a sin. We've talked about that several times on this podcast and what the Bible says about that. They have a tough time, though, balancing or knowing what it looks like to love someone and also speak the truth to them because one of the things that you said was very formative and that you appreciated was that the group of Christians that you saw blatantly said, yeah, we think homosexuality is a sin. A lot of times today we hear a whole lot of caveats.

and well, you know, we believe God loves everyone. We won't talk about that yet. But you appreciated both the sweetness and the love of people who received you, but also the truth that those Christians told you. So can you talk a little bit more about that for Christians who are wondering, how do I love, but also speak the truth in love to people in my life who are gay or who identify as transgender, whatever it is? Yeah, I mean, Jesus was a master at this, obviously.

And if you, and I've done this a couple of times where, where I'll read all four gospels through in one sitting, and I'll pay attention, just I'll focus on how Jesus interacts with people. And he never compromises truth or grace. He's always, he's obviously the, he balances grace and truth perfectly. And, you know, when he, yes, of course he eats with, and he spends times with tax collectors and sinners and prostitutes. but he always like even with Levi when he calls Levi to come follow him Levi leaves his tax booth

and basically that and then there's a then he has a celebration at his home and that's that celebration is a sign of repentance that that he's left that behind he's left that life behind and even the woman at the well the woman in Samaria like you know Jesus was so loving to her and so kind to her but he called her out on her sin. And, and I mean, that's, and I, so I, in, in Loviticus 19, actually, if I can just read this for a second, um, it, this is about, you know, loving your neighbor. And, uh, it says, it's Loviticus 19, verse 17. It says, you shall not hate your, your brother and your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him. And so loving your neighbor, in other words, means telling them the truth,

telling your neighbor the truth. And so that's what that it's people kind of think like, oh, it's not very loving to say these things and to say homosexual behaviors of sin. But it's actually the most loving thing you can do because you're, because you're, if you, if you're gay affirming, you're aiding and abetting someone's eternal destruction. And so that's the most unloving thing you can possibly do. And so I find it to, that's why I was so appreciative of how these, these young Christians just told me the truth, because that's, that's actually loving. And they were, you know, they weren't, they weren't cruel about it or mean about it. They were just very honest and very, they just said it very simply. And so, yeah, I think, I think, I,

I think you can't, Jesus, you can't check your, you can't check your convictions at the door when, when you're, you know, talking to people or when you're evangelizing. You, of course, be gracious and loving, but you have to tell the truth. And I think that's, we're losing a lot. Because of this, this issue is so, you know, controversial now in culture. We're losing a lot of that. Even pastors are kind of afraid to talk about this issue. Yeah.

And that kind of leads to my next question because it seems like for Christians, when compromise happens, when deconstruction happens, when they do kind of start embracing more worldly ideologies and dogma and trying to kind of somehow mix that in with Christianity, it does seem like homosexuality is the first thing. Like with Jen Hatmaker, that's one example. We've kind of seen that evolution over the past few years. I remember. And I think I think it was 2015. When she talked about, you know, she doesn't think being gay is a sin. We've seen that with several other, what you would call, you know, professing Christian influencers.

And it seems like for people who call themselves progressive Christians, that's the main thing. There might be some other things that they think is wrong with traditional conservative Christianity. But that seems to be the main sticking point and the main reason why some people deconstruct, why some people become so-called progressive Christians. Why do you think that is? And what do you, what do you think about that? What do you think about Christians who say, well, you know, I believe in Jesus and the gospel and all of that, but I also believe that being gay is fine. Well, I always think about, so when I was in high school at Jesuit, everyone at Jesuit, everyone at Ursulin, this, you know, this was 30 years ago, they believed, there was, it was just unequivocal. They believed that homosexuality was, was

wrong. Homosexual behavior was wrong. We didn't have to say anything. It was just understood. Now, some of those very same people from my high school on Facebook, there's a lot of them are gay affirming. And so my question is, why? What's happened over

the last 30 years? Yeah, I wonder what's happened. And obviously it's the culture. And we live in a very specific time and place in history and culture in the United States. And there's been, know, for the last, ever since Stonewall

in from 1969 until now, there's been this concerted effort to to obviously normalize homosexual behavior and all kinds of media and TV shows, Will & Grace, and, you know, queer eye and all these TV shows. And those shows have a massive impact on people's understanding of this issue. And they, of course, when you see movies,

like, you know, Brokeback Mountain or all these other kinds of movies. It just, it, it continues to, it's such, storytelling is so persuasive and it's persuading an entire generation, an entire culture that this behavior is not only good and righteous, but it's also holy. It's become, it's gone from a sin to a sacrament over the last, you know, 50 years. And so we have to understand, how powerful the culture is. And we have to understand that we are in the middle of it, and we have to be aware of what is, what's affecting our belief systems,

what's affecting our worldview. Is it the word of God? Or is it the culture? Is it Netflix? So you have to be aware of that because it's, again, the culture is so, obviously right now is so powerful.

And just the constant onslaught of media that is pro-LGBQ, you know, it's just, it's unbelievable, really, at this point. And so we have to be aware of what's affecting us. And that's why I always tell people, like, if you've watched an hour of Netflix, you've just been lied to implicitly or explicitly. And now you need to read the Bible for an hour to be renewed in your mind. You need the truth. And so I think that's the trap.

And by the way, Satan. Satan is thrilled about this. He's thrilled that he's got an entire generation deceived about this issue. And he's laughing all the way of the bank. He's winning this battle. He's not going to win the war. We know that. But he's winning this battle. And, you know, he's been lying from the beginning.

He lied in the guard. He twisted God's word in the beginning to Eve. And he said, did God really say you can't do that? And he's doing the exact same thing with this issue. He's saying, did God really say homosexual behaviors is sin? I mean, it's really just whispered in the Bible, right? Right. Right.

And it's not in the pastages that talk about it. you know, they're not really clear and, oh, it could be cultural distance or it could be something else. It's only talking about pedophilia. It's only talking about rape. Yeah. There's something that we've talked about a lot on this show. And it's an alliteration that I like to use when it comes to the definition of marriage and holy sexuality because you do hear those arguments a lot that, well, the Bible only prohibits it here and really it means this. But as Christians, we don't just read the Bible saying, what does God say not to do? But we also look at the Bible and say, well, what does God say to do? It's not a mentality for the Christian, for the one who is submitted to

Christ of what can I get away with. The mentality is how can I deny myself and glorify God the most? And so we also look at what God actually affirms. It's not just that he says homosexuality is wrong, although that would be enough if he did, but he also affirms that marriage is between a man and a woman. So that's rooted in creation. It's reiterated throughout Scripture. It's repeated by Jesus himself, specifically in Matthew 19. And it is reflective of the gospel because it is representative of Christ and the church, as we see in Ephesians 5. So it's not just a physical bond.

The definition of male and female is actually representative of Christ in the church. That means it not only has gospel significance, it has eternal significance. And it's just the hubris of the culture of human beings and of progressing, professing Christians to say that we can redefine that, like, that thing that is representative of something so huge and so eternal. And it's fine. It's fine. We can redefine this big, huge, significant thing, and it's okay.

And it really does. Just like all sin, like you said, go back to the garden and it also goes back to pride, that we think we are more loving than God. we think we are wiser than God, we're more compassionate and empathetic than God, we know truth better than God. That's really what it is. It's all about exchanging the God of Scripture for the God of self. Yeah, speaking of the exchanges, in Romans 1, you know, there's the three exchanges that Paul talks about that we exchange the truth for a lie. And it's interesting because what does Paul use as the illustration at the end of that section,

what does Paul use as the illustration for suppressing the truth, homosexual behavior? And why does he do that? Because it's patently obvious anatomically, physiologically, that two men or two women do not go together. And that's why Paul used, I think if Paul were around today, he may use the example of abortion as suppressing the truth.

Because, you know, even when I was when I was living as a gay man, I was pro choice. And but it's like I knew deep down, I knew that that that was a baby in the womb. But because all my friends were pro choice and I just just, you know, I just took that on. And and that's just actively suppressing the truth. And so, but anyway, yeah. So the Bible is, says nothing positive about homosexual behavior. It's all negative. and it's so, I mean, as you said, just from Genesis to Revelation, it's just, it's not just

those six passages that specifically address it. It's the entire scope of the story of redemption. And the thing is, the Bible is not a handbook on homosexuality. It's the greatest love story ever told. But it's so clear about this issue. And Paul says, do not be deceived. You know, men who practice homosexuality will not enter the kingdom of God. It's just, it's so abundantly clear. And so after I got saved that day, after I came to faith, and when I read the Bible, I mean, I mean, I was just voraciously reading the Bible. I was obsessed with it and I still am. But I, but every word just jumped off the page and I was like, whoa, like, this is crazy. I can't believe that I'm a part of this story of redemption. And in the passages that talk about sexuality, I just was like,

they completely rang true to me. And I just knew that this is the truth. This is the truth. Wow. Okay. I've got building on that, I've got three specific kind of advice questions to ask you. One thing, we talked about why a lot of Christians, obviously we know why non-Christians kind of given on this issue, but a lot of Christians give in on this issue is not, yes, because of the culture. And I guess one of the messages that culture tells us that political activists, which are ruthless, tell us is that if we do not affirm someone's so-called sexual or gender identity, then they are going to die. They're going to kill themselves. It is like condoning violence. It's always that. It's never like, well, you know, this kind of hurts someone's feelings. It's always

straight to you're condoning their death. You're condoning violence against them if you happen to disagree with that. Well, no one wants to be on that side. Of course. No one wants to. Right. So I think that's one pressure. And I'm wondering if you have some advice specifically when it comes to, well, I don't know if I'm trying to split up these questions or bring them together. One thing that people ask me a lot that I've tried to answer, but I want to hear your perspective. Should you use the preferred pronouns of someone, even though you know you're not affirming transgenderism? And the second question is in this whole truth in love realm. Should you go to a gay person's wedding as a Christian to show them love?

Well, let's start with the gay wedding thing. So when I, right after I, I kind of, I think it was like six months to a year after I got saved, my agents at William Morris invited me, well, one of the agents was gay, is gay, and he was getting married to a man. And, uh, We were out at dinner and he hit the the woman agent she turned to me and she said Beckett you're going to so-and-so's wedding right and I said of course I'm going because in that moment I just felt like oh like I'm supposed to be loving I should do this right because I was a brand I was a baby Christian I didn't really know what to do and so I ended up going to the wedding and it was a huge mistake because once I got there I really

realize, wait a minute, all these people here are celebrating sin. Like, they're celebrating this union between two men, and I can't be a part of this. So my thing with gay weddings is I absolutely will not go ever again. I won't put myself through that again. And I just think, I mean, it's a tough question. for parents, like, do you go and show your, you know, your love to your child while at the same time making it clear to them that you, you disagree with, with what's happening? But I find that, you know, Jesus, you know, this, I mean, this is, these are hard words, but Jesus said,

hate your mother, hate your brother, hate your father, like, and come follow me. And in other words, like, I have to be, no, I have to be number one in your life. And, and so you have to have to ask yourself, is this, is my attending this, this gay wedding, is that glorifying to God? And is my presence there showing support for this? And again, it's not about, yes, you can go to dinner, to the dinner with them or whatever, but to go to the union, to the wedding, quote, unquote, I think is, is not a good idea for a Christian to do. I think it's, it's damaging. because you're sending the wrong signal. You're basically saying, like, I'm affirming this as well.

With all these other people, I'm affirming this union. Yeah. So that's dangerous. And then with the pronoun, preferred pronouns, it's funny that you ask me this question because I try to stay out of that. But, well, you don't have to, you aren't, you don't have to answer that question if you don't want to. I just thought that you might have an interesting perspective,

even though I know transgender and homosexuality is not the same thing, but is someone who was evangelized to and had that good mixture of truth and love, in your opinion, what is the mixture of truth and love there? I mean, it's hard because kind of in principle, I would say, you know, don't use preferred pronouns because you're just, you're adding to the chaos and the confusion of the world. And so you're just, you're just not, you're not helping in any way. You're not helping bring truth salt and light.

You're not bringing truth into a situation by using preferred pronouns. So in principle, I'm opposed to that. And I also think it's just postmodern gibberish. And, you know, it's just like Derida and Foucault are just winning, you know, because. Yeah. Because people are falling for this. Yeah. They're falling for this stupid deconstructed lie of, you know, oh, gender's not real.

And Simone de Beauvoir. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there is no gender, you know, it's, there's no, there's not binary sex, there's just kind of fluid gender and you can choose whatever you're on. So I think, I think it's important to, to be kind of clear on that to the culture as a Christian and not, not equivocate, not waiver on it, because the culture already is so, and even Christians in the church are already. confused about it. So I think it's important to be clear on that. However, that said, in any given situation, it depends on, you know, if I'm talking to somebody who is transgender, I, or I'm not going to be, I'm not going to go out of my way to be cruel to them. So I'm not going to like call them Joe if their,

you know, name is Christine. You know, like I'm not going to, and I'm not going to call them he. when when they present or appear as as a woman. So it's just, I think it depends on the situation. And I think you need wisdom. And I would pray about that. But in general, but in principle,

yeah, I think just the, this whole pronoun, gender stuff is so demonic. Yeah. And that we need to be, be firm on it and clear about it, but then also love people well.

I do think that there is a difference in talking about something or someone and talking to someone. And you don't want to lie to them. I think that you could simultaneously say to someone, hey, you know, I love you. I want to be your friend. But here's where I stand on this. Like you are a man, you're a woman, whatever it is. I'm going to be as kind to you as possible. If you want me to call you Sally, I'll call you Sally. But here's where I stand here is the truth. So I'm. I'm going to be as kind to you as possible. I'm going to be as kind to you as possible. I'm going to call you Sally. But here is the truth. So I think it is possible, too. I know that nuance is a word that is very overused nowadays sometimes to excuse people for just confusion. But I do think in interaction with someone and in conversation with someone, there is some nuance. But I'm with you definitely on the principle. Absolutely. I'm not going to use the preferred pronouns if I were writing an article. If I were talking about a story like a man competing against women in sports,

I'm not going to add to that confusion by using the improper preferred pronoun, but it can get a little bit complicated with people. Okay, here's the, there's many things I could, I want to ask you. But here's one thing that I have a really hard time with personally. And that's 1st Corinthians 511. Now I'm writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother. If he is guilty, so a fellow Christian, if he is guilty of sexual immorality or grief, or is an idolatir, reviler, drunkard, or swindler, not even to eat with such a one. Now, a lot of people have friends who profess to be Christians who are gay or who are greedy,

whatever it is. And I'm not sure how often we actually implement this biblical rule. I mean, what is your take on that? What would your advice be to Christians who are kind of struggling with this? Well, I'm not going to go against Paul, that's for sure. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, I mean, those words he said, those words that you just read are, they're harsh and they seem harsh in our culture and they sound hard. But yeah, if someone is professing to be a Christian, yet they're living a life, look, for example, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're living a life of, of homosexual behavior.

And they're living that life and identifying as gay. And I think I mean, I think I would do what Paul says. And, you know, because in first, here's the thing, you know, and this is all over the New Testament. But I'll just read in First John, this is what John has to say. And he says in 1st John 3, he says, no one who abides in Christ keeps on sinning. No one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil for the devil has been sinning from the beginning and then lastly he says no one born of god makes a practice in other words continues in unrepentant

sinned so no one born of god makes a practice of sinning for god's seed abides in him and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of god so and so if i if i meet someone who professes christianity and but then you know goes to a gay affirming church or is gay and lives that life fully, then I treat them as a Gentile, as Paul would say. I treat them as a non-believer. And so, yeah, I, I'm trying to think if I do, I don't, I really don't hang out with people who, who are doing that, who are in that situation.

So I guess, and just by kind of default, I don't associate with people who are doing that. Yeah, I think that's a difficult area for people who, again, are told that love is unconditional affirmation, but you made such a great point earlier that the most loving thing that we can do is really agree with God and agree with God in what he says is good and right and true. And there is a way to exemplify that truth and love. And as you pointed out earlier, Jesus is the perfect example of that. Now, I do want to say to people that Jesus was the perfect example of the embodiment of grace and truth. And we are also told that Stephen was described as that full of grace and truth. We know how both of them ended up.

So being full of grace and truth does not mean that the culture is going to love you, that the person that you're talking to is going to respond well, that you're going to be accepted by the world. Actually, if you look at the life of Stephen, you might get metaphorically stoned, canceled whatever, for being full of grace and truth. And so realize that the outcome or the response is not indicative of whether or not your obedience is right. The indication of whether or not your obedience is right is if it's biblical. Yeah. And, you know, Jesus, I'm just trying to find the sermon on the Mount.

But Jesus says, yeah, Jesus says, blessed are you, blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you, and this is, I mean, this is like, and I'm sure you get this, I get this all the time. Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad for your reward is great in heaven,

for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. And then, you know, Jesus says they're going to hate you because they hated me first. And so, yeah, I take great comfort in that, that our master, our king, suffer, he suffered, you know, the worst kind of mistreatment and persecution. And so when, and Paul's, what's the verse? Count it all joy, brothers. Is that Peter or Paul? Peter, Paul, or Mary.

But yeah, I mean, it's just like, I think it's actually. James. Who is it? I think it's actually James. James. Oh, James. Okay. Okay.

Sorry. But I, you know, one of my favorite verses kind of, I don't like to choose favorite verses, but one of the verses that really resonates with me and has always resonated with me since I became a Christian is when Paul says, I count everything is lost because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus, my Lord. Now, I, I've lost a lot. of friends. Like I lost my closest, closest friends from St. Marks and Hocket. So the, I had, when I was at Jesuit, most of my friends were St. Marks and Hockaday people. And they were my roommates in L.A. Like, we were all best, best, best, best, best friends since

high school. And I lost those friends. I lost my career. But again, just like Paul, you know, Paul, this is another thing about this issue is it's so, we're so in this kind of, obviously if you've read the Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self, we're in this expressive individualistic kind of period in history. And if you're, you know, if you're not living your authentic life or being true to yourself, then somehow you're not, you know, there's something wrong with that. but I just find that I kind of like just lost my train of thought wait where was I going about that's okay the rise in trying for the modern self that's Carl Truman and we're kind of

told that if you're not authentically being yourself at all times then you're not going to be fulfilled you're not going to be happy and all of that and you but you lost all of these friends and yeah so what I was going to say is Paul Paul we kind of live in this time where we're just like we look at ourselves and our lives and we want happiness we want We want all these things. And it's like, Paul, if you look at his life, he was shipwrecked and beaten and he was jailed. But all he cared about was running around the Mediterranean, planting churches, spreading the gospel. And that's all he cared about.

It wasn't a, his life wasn't, he was, we're purchased. We are not our own. We were bought with a price. And so our life is not our own. And so that's the, that's the struggle with, you know, with being a Christian is, this is not, we are no longer, we don't own ourselves. Christ owns us now. And so I just look to Paul and I think of, you know, what he went through.

And I'm just like, my life is, you know, my life is a cakewalk compared to what Paul had to deal with. And so I think we need to kind of remember and go back to the word of God and remember, you know, all the people who, you know, all the apostles were, were martyred except. John who was sunbathing on Patmos and writing Revelation. Yeah. But yeah, we have to look back and look about the early church and the martyrs of the early church and how persecuted Christians were in the first century by Nero and others.

And so, yeah, so it's not, we kind of are so internally focused right now in our culture and it's so toxic. And we need to look outward and look upward, really. Yes. absolutely could not agree more i am so thankful that you took the time to come on and share your story i actually had a bunch of other questions to ask you about things that are currently going on in culture that you've been talking about on your podcast but i was just so invested in your story and i just knew as you were talking that this was going to really benefit the people that need

to hear it so thank you for once again sharing your story with us and for answering some questions that i know aren't aren't always easy to answer but that a lot of christians are wrestling with and you lent us your wisdom into those. And so I'm very grateful. Can you tell everyone where they can find you, where they can buy your book and all that good stuff? Oh yeah. You can buy a change of affection on any Amazon or Barnes & Noble, whatever, anywhere, really. And you can find me on YouTube, on the Becca Cook Show, or it's on any kind of a podcast platform as well, or Beckettcook.com. Beckettcook.com is my website. So you can go there too. Do you need?

Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Thank you, Allie. I appreciate it. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity,

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