Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 594 | The Pro-Choice Movement Takes Its Dying Breath | Guest: Lila Rose

Episode Date: April 5, 2022

Today we're talking to Lila Rose, founder and president of Live Action, about a horrific case out of D.C. in which five aborted babies were found in an apartment. Some of them may have been given illegal partial-birth abortions. Lila fills in the details of the story and separates fact from fiction, and we also discuss what to say to Christians who say they oppose abortion but don't necessarily want to make it illegal. Lila also tells us about some of the pro-abortion legislation that has been passed in various states and the utter moral depravity of the people who work in that profession. However, we end on a positive note, as there are several other states in which pro-life advocates have won major victories, and the more people learn the truth of abortion, the more people will inevitably become pro-life. --- Today's Sponsors: Annie's Kit Clubs — treat your kids & yourself to something fun & creative. Right now, get 75% off your first shipment at AnniesKitClubs.com/ALLIE! Raycon Everyday earbuds look, feel, & sound better than ever! Go to BuyRaycon.com/ALLIE & get 15% off your order! Birch Gold will help you convert an IRA or 401(k) into a tax-sheltered account in gold & silver. Text 'ALLIE' to 98-98-98 to get started now! --- Show Links: Lila's tweet thread of the infant bodies that were discovered: https://bit.ly/3DJZK0D Call the DC medical examiner's office: 202.698.9000 DC medical examiner: https://bit.ly/3xaf3yw --- Previous Episodes Mentioned: Ep 593: Is Empathy Making Us Stupid? https://apple.co/3LFnh5y Ep 141: Abortion https://apple.co/3Ll8f4H Ep 289: Trump vs. Biden 2020: Abortion https://apple.co/3uCG2Q8 Ep 310: Do Democrats Decrease Abortions? https://apple.co/3DjDnyN Ep 497: Surprise: The 'Women's Health Protection Act' Doesn't Protect Health | Guest: Alexandra DeSanctis https://apple.co/3DhT0qm --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hey guys, welcome to relatable. Happy Tuesday. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. That's American Meat delivered right to your front door.

Go to Good Ranchers.com slash All right. Today we are going to talk to our friend Lila Rose. She is a pro-life activist, pro-life advocate. She is the president of the pro-life organization, Live Action. She wrote a book called Fighting for Life. She has been doing this work for about 15 years now. She has been on the front lines fighting against abortion. And we are going to talk about this horrifying and truly shocking story coming out of Washington, D.C., about five babies, the remains of whom were found in a Washington, D.C. apartment.

but they come from an abortion clinic in Washington, D.C., and we'll kind of clear up some confusion about that. And these babies all were in the second and third trimester, and some of them look to have been murdered using illegal means. Of course, all abortion is brutal and horrific, but the particular methods used, it looks like, on some of these babies could have been partial birth abortions, which are actually banned by federal law. the graphic images of these sweet, precious babies, these tiny image bearers of God, it's truly physically painful to look at. Lila tweeted last week the images of these babies that were found in one of the babies. And this is graphic. And there's going to be graphic language throughout this podcast. We've, you know, we've done this several times where we've described to you

what abortion is, what the procedure is, the science, the medical. terminology that describes what is actually going on in abortion. So just be ready for that. I think it is so important to be clear on this subject. So we can really see just how barbaric this is. But one of these pictures, it's a baby girl. And she is looking at the camera. One of her eyes is open. It looks like she's peering into the camera right into your soul, just a precious, almost perfectly intact baby girl. But the back of her skull is, crushed. And it looks like she has endured a partial birth abortion where her brain was actually sucked out of the back of her head while she was being partially delivered. That is abortion.

Whether it's through that method or another method, every time you are murdering a defenseless, innocent, human being with a soul. This is not nuanced. There are not caveats. There is no logical or a theologically solid way to be personally pro-life, but politically pro-choice. You can't be holistically pro-life without first being fundamentally anti-abortion. And you cannot be anti-abortion without, at the very least, bare minimum, recognizing that a child, a human being inside the womb, should have a legal recognition of their humanity, a legal right not to be murdered. We have no business calling ourselves pro-life if we can't even start there.

Yes, we should take care of women and children. Yes, we should care about children outside the womb. Yes, we can debate the different policies that could create a culture of life. Absolutely. But that does not preclude us from being against the slaughter of unborn children. That's what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk about this specific story and the hashtag that, Lila and Live Action started justice for the five. If we care about justice, we should care about

justice for them. She's going to talk about exactly what happened here, some of the problems and the corruption in this particular D.C. clinic. We're also going to talk about the Christian responsibility to be courageous in the face of this kind of evil and how the history of the church compels us as Christians today to stand up for the most vulnerable, namely children, how the gospel compels us to do so. And we are also going to talk about the other legislation that's happening across the country, particularly in blue states, as we look to the potential overturning of Roe v. Wade this summer. May the Lord let it be so. And she is going to do, Lila is going to do what she does best, which is not only inform and educate, but also inspire you and encourage you. She ends this

conversation with so much hope and so much optimism. So yes, it's going to be heartbreaking to hear some of the things that we're talking about because abortion is heartbreaking. It should make us sad. It should make us really angry. It should get us riled up. It should be hard to listen to. It should be hard to see those images. That's because God has made our hearts soft and he has given us the grace of compassion to care about these things. And so allow yourself to hear what we're talking about. Allow yourself to go look at those images, which I don't think that we are actually able to show on YouTube, but they are on Twitter for now. So go look at those images. Rest in that pain. Like rest in that heartache and let that heartache compel you to do something. And that is, that's what Lila is

going to encourage us in today. By the end of this, by the end of this conversation, you are going to, yes, be sad that abortion exists, but you are also going to feel so empowered and so filled with bravery and boldness to use your voice on behalf of the voiceless. That is what we are doing when we are talking about abortion for all the people and all the Christians that you follow that talk about social justice, talk about caring for the most vulnerable and the least of these. If they're not also talking about abortion, then I think that you should ask them why. Sure. we don't have to talk about every news story all of the time. That's true.

But for the Christian who says if they stand for justice and they're silent on this, I question. I question if they are motivated really by justice and an obedience to God or if they are just going along with the mainstream. The theme of this episode is almost every episode that we have is that politics matter because policy matters because people matter. That is the relatable alliteration that we repeat so much, politics affects policy, policy affects people, and people matter.

People matter. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality.

We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Lila, thank you so much for joining us again. I want to talk to you about this big story that you tweeted about a few days ago with the graphic images of the babies who had been aborted.

These babies remains were found in a few. a D.C. apartment. They come from a D.C. abortion clinic there. Can you just give us the backstory of what happened and how these babies were discovered? Sure. Well, there are, first of all, appear to be a lot of misleading stories in mainstream media about this case right now. So it's important to set the record straight. The core of the story is that the remains of five children, some of them nearly full term, according to the experts that have analyzed the documentation of their remains. The bodies of five children are down the possession of the DC police and the DC Medical Examiner's Office. And their children, three of them in particular, their bodies and the trauma on their bodies are consistent with

potentially illegal abortions or consistent with the babies being born alive and then being killed. And so these would be federal crimes as well as possible DC of Columbia crimes, District of Columbia crimes. And so it's absolutely essential in what live action is calling on the DC police to do and the DC Medical Examiner's Office to do is to investigate. They may have in their possession the evidence of federal crimes being committed against these children. And they, as of Friday, Ali, said that they hadn't yet done an autopsy. And that was four days ago. No autopsy had been completed yet on the children. An autopsy is necessary to ascertain whether or not crimes were committed against them. So that's really the core of the story. I can get into all the surrounding details about how this happened and why this is

happening, but the core is that there are five children who need justice. Their bodies are with the DC Medical Examiner's Office. He can do his job and do an examination, a pathological examination of the bodies. He has not done that yet. And until that's done, justice can't be had. And that is really the urgent item at hand right now. Yes. And I want to talk more about that core. But just for people who are trying to piece this together in their minds and they're wondering, Hang on, how exactly were these bodies discovered? Can you give us those surrounding details? Because I understand the remains were found in the apartment of an anti-abortion pro-life activist,

possibly handed over by a whistleblower. But I think some people are kind of curious or confused, since there has been so much misleading reporting about this. So can you fill us in? Yes. And I think what's also really confusing for people is one of the activists at the heart of the story on the same day that she was in the process of handing the remains over to D.C. police. So she was doing that voluntarily.

On that same day, the FBI shows up, apparently at her home, to indict her for charges against the, indict her for the FACE Act. So basically this federal law having to do with activism she did with several others two years ago. So it was this really unprecedented and strange coincidence. These were two totally disconnected. things that happened. Yeah, exactly. And according to the activist,

according to the activist's own public statements, you know, they were given these remains by a whistleblower. And this happened, this has happened in the prolifer moment before where whistleblowers associated with abortion clinics, either a whistleblower gives over the remains of aborted children or the aborted children are literally thrown away in the trash

and the prolifers try to retrieve them to give them a proper burial. So this has happened before in the decades of our movement. And this has been one of the acts of mercy really that pro-lifers have done historically to try to give these children a proper burial. But according to the activist, a whistleblower gives them the remains. They are working with D.C. police to give over the remains of these five children because there may be federal crimes committed against them or a District of Columbia crimes because there are statutes in D.C. against illegal abortions. And the backstory here, too, is really important.

Chaserie Santangelo is the abortionist that is a, that committed. these crimes against these children. He runs this DC abortion clinic. He does late-term abortions. Live action has investigated him in the past. And we have documented him on undercover camera, admitting that he would leave babies to die, admitting that he would be willing to commit infanticide. He said to himself on undercover camera. And he also says that the manner of how he kills these children is through cutting the umbellical court, it's what he claims on undercover camera, which according to, again, the medical experts, and now it's about a dozen of them

have reviewed the documentation of their bodies, have said, actually, it looks like one of them as a partial birth abortion, which would be illegal. This little baby girl's neck was cut. Her brain was removed. One of the baby boys was born totally intact. So it looks like he might have been born alive before being killed.

Maybe drowned, we're not sure. So it is crucial that DC police and the DC medical examiner take action now. That's why live action is urging everyone to call the DC Medical Examiner's Office and say, do your investigation, do an examination of these bodies, get a qualified pathologist in there, and do an autopsy to find out how these children died, and then investigate Chaser of Santangelo. He is, I believe, operating illegally in D.C. and he's committing infanticide. And one more thing to add to that, Allie, is, you know, you can actually type in DC Surgy Center on Google right now. If anyone's listening, you can do this.

type in DC Surgy Center or Surgy Health, D.C. on Google. Go to the Google review page for this business, for this horrific business, late-term abortion business. You will find two Google reviews in the last year, months apart, where the women indicate that their babies may have been born alive and express their unhappiness with that fact. They're going in for abortions and they're saying, my little girl couldn't be revived.

I had to deliver her at the hospital. Another woman saying that I don't know. if the baby was born alive. This abortionist is, I think, doing this prolifically. He is committing abortions on viable babies. They are being born alive and then he's killing them. Whether he kills them in or outside of the womb doesn't matter from a perspective of morality or human rights, but unfortunately our law is incoherent and it will only protect the born alive babies, but there still is a law to protect the born alive babies. And this abortionist, I believe, is violating those laws regularly. So this is a hugely urgent story.

Very important for people to get involved. If people are listening and they want to get involved, you can go to our Instagram at Live Action.org, Liveaction.org, and get the phone number for the DC Medical Examiner's Office, and please call and express your concern and say, an autopsy must be properly performed on these children to determine the manner and the timing of death

because I think it could find that at least one or two of them were born alive, and one of these babies, a baby girl, maybe 28 or 30 weeks old. So old enough to survive outside the womb, this beautiful baby girl, was the victim of an illegal partial birth abortion. And I'm sorry for the graphic nature of this. It's heartbreaking to even consider. But that means this little girl would have been delivered, partially halfway, delivered

feet first, alive. And the abortionist would have cut her neck alive and then suction out her brains, collapsing her skull and delivering her dead. And that would have been a violation of the federal, Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act. So there's tremendously, this is a tremendously significant story that lives and lives, future lives are at stake. And that's why we're urging everyone to take action.

And it really makes you wonder if this is happening at this abortion clinic. And as you said, you have gotten this particular abortionist on camera. I watched the video. It's on the live action website saying, and you can tell he's kind of squirming, admitting what he does, that if a baby is born alive, then he's, would do things not to help it, I think, was his particular language. And of course, this is something that is not just kind of admitted behind closed doors. We had the governor of Virginia just a couple years ago say on radio that if a baby survives an abortion, the mother and the doctor would

put the baby to the side and kind of decide what to do. And so that really makes you wonder, how often is this happening that we don't know? As you mentioned, the partial birth abortion ban went into place in the early 2000s. And so technically the kind of abortion that you just described where the brain is suction out while the baby is still alive being partially delivered is technically illegal. But I have my doubts that someone like Leroy Carhart, who, you know, has talked about under giving testimony in court that he has performed this kind of abortion on living baby several times. Kermit Gossnell, obviously, one of the most horrific cases.

It just makes me wonder if this is actually happening against federal law very consistently. And we just happened to find out one of many, many instances. Yeah. Ali, it's happening everywhere. I mean, listen, there are 10. I've been investigating the abortion industry for 15 years. Life Actions have been researching it for the last decade. There are tens of thousands of.

term abortions at minimum happening in our country every single year. In every single late-term abortion, you have to take a viable baby and you have to somehow deliver it, but make sure it's dead before it's delivered. The problem with that is, for the abortionist, is if you're inducing labor in the woman, which is frequently done in late-term abortions, that baby may be born alive, or depending how sloppy you are, how lazy you are, depending on your methods, you might just let that baby be born alive and then either submerge it in solution. And we have documentation at life action of abortion clinics who do late-term abortions admitting this is what they do. They take a born-alive child that's viable that they're trying to abort.

They didn't kill it in utero because either, again, lazy or their method is different. They do an injection. The injection misses the baby. Or sometimes the woman, because this takes about the induction takes about two days, but hey, if you're like 30 weeks or farther along, the woman might accidentally go into labor. labor is unpredictable. Right, before the doctor is able to go in there when he is scheduled to do so and kill the baby. So go on.

You're exactly right, Allie. And so we've even had undercover clinics admit on tape. And this is with our inhuman investigation that we did in 2013. And since then we've continued this investigation. So it's been almost 10 years of this kind of investigative work. And they've admitted on tape that they would take the baby and submerge it in a barrel or a bucket of solution to preserve the remains before they hand them. to a medical waste company, put them in solution, which would drown them at the same time if the child is born alive. And that is my suspicion when I think that it's so necessary that the DC examiner

do his job in the DC police that that may have happened to some of these babies, that they were born alive. And in order to not have to deal with, you know, just screaming or, you know, letting them just live on for maybe even days in the back room, they submerged them in the solution. I mean, this has been admitted on tape by other abortion clinics. So this is a, you know, you know, it is, it's absolutely devastating to consider that this is happening. It's easier to say, oh, it doesn't happen. We would never do that. Yeah.

That's impossible. But we know, based on even public record, you know, you mentioned Kermit Gossnell. He was killing born alive infants. It's a fact. It's a fact proven in a court of law in Philadelphia. And he's in prison because of it. We know that this is, this happens. We know it is reasonable that it happens because late-term abortion is a disgusting and deadly

business. And it doesn't always work to kill the baby in utero. Sometimes that baby is born alive. And that's why, by the way, there is never a justification for abortion. And when advocates for abortion say, well, late-term abortion is sometimes necessary, that is a complete lie. It is a cruel lie because those children, every single one of them could be born alive instead of dead. The birth still needs to happen. Let them be born alive.

Give them a chance. That's what we say. Give them a chance. There are, you know, folks that would adopt. There's long waiting list of adoptive couples looking for newborns. So, you know, there are safe haven laws in many states. There's safe haven laws. Exactly.

And, you know, looking at the political landscape right now, there are multiple states. And I think, you know, you've been tracking this carefully on your show, Alley. There are multiple states that are trying to pass laws to decriminalize any, any kind of abortion or even infanticide in the first few days or months of the baby's life. they don't want any protection for these children. I'm talking about California. I'm talking about Colorado. I'm talking about Maryland.

I'm talking about New Jersey. States that are passing laws that say a woman can have an abortion for any reason up until nine months. And even maybe in the perinatal period, which could be up to maybe 60 days up there to the baby's birth, it's up to her and her doctor to decide what care the child gets or lack of care. So presumably the child could be left to die. And, you know, again, people think, well, it could never happen. It is happening.

It's been documented to happen. And it is up to every one of us to do something because this is the greatest human rights abuse that I think our planet has ever seen is the sheer cruelty against infants, against prenatal infants, and the laws that are being weaponized against them. Yep. There's a quote by R.C. Sprole. He's a reformed theologian. And he often said when he was alive, if I know anything about the character of God over the 40 years. years that I've been in ministry. It's that he hates abortion. And I think if there's anything that the Christian knows about the God who made us in his image, who himself came in the form of a

baby to become our redemption, who against the protestations of his disciples welcomed the little children to himself, who says in Psalm 139 that he need us together purposely and specifically and lovingly in our mother's wombs, if there is anything that we know about that God, the God who demanded the death penalty for child sacrifice among Israel in the Old Testament. If there's anything that we know about that God, it is that he hates abortion. That doesn't mean that he hates the women who have had abortions, that there isn't grace and forgiveness and mercy and redemption for them because there is, just like there is for all of us.

But it grieves me when I see Christians not allow their hearts to break for this in the way that it breaks God's heart or anger. that instead, I don't know if it's just ideology or because, as you mentioned, it's so uncomfortable to really grapple with what this is. They won't look at what actually happens in an abortion procedure in the first, second and third trimester, which, by the way, just to mention, I know you and I are talking about late-term abortion, but we agree abortion at any stage is a brutal procedure that is killing a human being with worth. So they won't look into that. They won't think about it. Or they say, you know what, we really should.

be involved in the politics of this. We shouldn't really be involved in trying to make abortion illegal. We should only be focusing on, you know, free birth control or, you know, government programs that make their lives easier. And, you know, pro-life is really only about immigration or whatever it is. It's not about opposing abortion legally. What do you say to those Christians who find themselves with that mentality? Listen, three things. First of all, for Christians, who say we can't get involved in pro-life because at least anti-abortion pro-life because we can just, you know, will help the women, which, by the way, that's most of pro-life is serving women and families, the thousands of pregnancy centers, live action, collaborates with the foster care networks,

the parents adopting. I mean, that's like the core, right? But we need legal protection too. And I would say, first of all, you know, that sort of strain of Christianity, which says, well, I'm not going to get involved in politics is, I believe, very hypocritical. because many of those pastors or influencers or celebrities who are Christian are getting involved in politics. You know, when it's an issue like, you know, the death of George, the killing, the slaying of George Floyd, they're willing to get involved in politics and say justice for George Floyd. Where's justice for the five? And we should have justice for both.

Why can't we have justice for both? And when I say justice for the five, I mean, justice for the five children's children who were likely murdered and who were murdered, but even by law, technically, thankfully, the law still protects some of them because they may have been born alive or killed by a legal abortion means. And their remains are their bodies, their infant bodies are with the medical examiner's office in D.C. And he is doing nothing. He is just sitting on on this evidence and probably waiting to dispose of it like trash instead of even letting them have a proper burial when there are many Christians do you want to give these children a proper burial. But the second, so the first thing is, I think it's hypocritical for Christians that say, well, I'm not going to get involved in politics. You live in a

country with rule of law, you are required to participate as a good citizen. You are required to participate. It is shirking your duty as a Christian and as a citizen to not participate. And to participate means to call strongly and boldly and apologetically for legal protection for all children, not just some, all children. The second thing that I think is important is that Christians, you know, I think we tend to, especially in popular culture, we tend to take cues from the culture. You know, we want to be liked. We think that, you know, we want to show Christ well. And so we want it to look good. And so we don't want to go against what the sort of, you know, the muses of the day are saying, the popular voices of the day are saying. And if the popular voices of the day seem to

say, oh, abortion doesn't really happen like that, abortion's okay, abortion's empowering, then a cowardly Christian will shut up. A cowardly Christian will make excuses and rationalize and not do anything. But we're not called to be cowardly Christians. To be a Christian is to be courageous. It's to be loving. It's to sacrifice everything. That's what Jesus did. He sacrificed everything for others, for us. And so if we're going to follow in his footsteps, it means picking up our cross. And that means being willing to take whatever unpopularity comes with that. And then the final thing that I think is important for Christians to understand right now and is a challenge for Christians is because we want to be compassionate and it's easy to fall into

false compassion. And I have a whole chapter about this in my book that my first and only book where it's called Beware of False Compassion. And a Christian might listen again to a sob, you know, these are sob stories. They're heartbreaking stories. You know, a woman talking about why she feels like she needs an abortion. And the abortion maybe was, she says it was good for her. You know, the perspective of the woman, getting inside the woman's shoes. And by the way, I think that's essential. I'm a woman. We need to get inside each other's shoes. But we can never get inside of someone's subjectivity, someone's subjectivity, get inside their their eyes. They see it from their perspective and use that to justify violence against children, against innocents. We can never do

that. And so, you know, be compassionate, but be justly compassionate. Right. Be, be, uh, fairly compassionate to both woman and mom. And we have a slogan at live action, both women and baby. We have a slogan at live action, which is love them both, you know, love the woman. I'm a woman. I love my fellow women. Fight for women, advance women, but love the child to. You can't, and the truth is, you're not actually loving her. You're not actually being compassionate to her. You're not actually being compassionate to her, if you are accepting or encouraging or just sitting on the sidelines, well, a woman walks into an abortion clinic. And the reason for that is you are permitting your sisters to be, to, to, to live the lie that their child has no value and that this is a good thing for their life.

And that lie is going to devastate them if it hasn't already. It always does. It always devastates. Abortion always devastates. So from those three perspectives, you know, Christians are being hypocritical to say, we're not going to get involved in politics. It's your job. It's your civic duty. You know, Christians who want to be popular, quite frankly, and it's in some ways it's not popular to be pro-life, although I think that's going to change. So, you know, help make the change with us. And then the final way of you don't be falsely compassionate, be authentically compassionate.

And that means seeing both victims and recognizing that violence against children with abortion is never the answer to any problem or any crisis that anyone faces. Yesterday we talked about empathy and how empathy can be weaponized to manipulate people into only caring about one side of the issue or into not believing something is true. It kind of inhibits people from thinking because if you're told, well, if you're empathetic, then you will just understand that some women have to have abortions and you will just try to listen to her with empathy and not judge her. That's what it means, to love someone, whatever. You know all of the manipulation and the euphemistic rhetoric that is used. And empathy can be a good thing. But just like any value, any characteristic, it has to be subject for the Christian to the word of God.

Just like authenticity can be a good thing. Autonomy can be a good thing. If these things aren't subject to the word of God first to a truth that transcends our feelings, then they will actually be used. all of those characteristics will be used as excuses to sin, excuses for selfishness, excuses not to use our mind and really think about what's going on. True love, as you mentioned, is just. And so we're not just looking at the woman involved. We are also looking at the victim, which is the child. And so Christians have to be very careful, not to be caught up in kind of the

emotional mainstream rhetoric about anything, but in particular about abortion. And this is, you brought this up so perfectly. And people always ask, because I'm sure they ask you, like, what do I say to this argument about abortion? What do I say to this argument about abortion? Well, there's a million ways live action has equipped people really well in this, in this way. But I think the essential rule always bring it back to the child. If someone brings up, well, what about this scenario or what about this? Bring it back to the child. In every situation, abortion kills a child and simply ask, does this circumstance justify the murder of a child? the answer is no. That's really essentially what you can always bring it back to when it comes to abortion.

And I just encourage Christians to think a little bit harder about their positions before latching on to any kind of mainstream narrative about it. I mean, that's very well said, Ali. And you're spot on. There's a moral order to the universe and we can see it all written all throughout the Bible. And that moral order is very clear, not just in Christianity. That moral order is clear in Judaism. That moral order is clear. even written in the heart of an atheist because God writes his laws in our hearts because we're made in his image. And if you're really quiet enough and thoughtful enough and really reasonable enough and sit and reflect, you can you can begin to hear whispers of God in your heart. And that ultimately, Laurel law includes, do not kill. Thou shalt not kill. It's a hard, hard and fast red line. Do not kill. And every abortion kills. So that should be, make this crystal

clear. It's simple, really. This should not be, you know, the opposition here, the pro borsion side is trying to complicate it. They're trying to make this as rationalized as possible and bringing all kinds of justifications up. Don't let them do that. Get back to the simplicity of do not kill and then work so hard, join the movement and work so hard to solve problems for women, to solve problems for family, to help children, you know, to be a solution, a person's a person of solution, but never the solution, we can never print the solution to be the violation of that fundamental moral law, which is thou shalt not kill. Yes, I am reading this book that I heard about the other day.

It was written a long time ago, but it's called When Children Became People. And it's actually about at the start of the church, at the start of Christianity, how incredibly countercultural Christianity was in its view of not just children, but also women and slaves, because in ancient pagan Greek and Roman culture, they viewed society in concentric circles with the adult free male being in the middle, the center of society, really the only complete person. And old people, slaves, women, and children

were kind of just seen as burdens of society that can really be exploited and used any way the adult free male wanted them to be used. And then Christianity came along and really universalized what was already true in the Old Testament about people being made in the image of God and introduced this idea of radical equality that because everyone is made in the image of God, they're all worthy of dignity and respect. And by the way, apart from Christ, we are all equally unworthy of salvation. And this was

a radical concept that really changed over time the course of history by changing how cultures around the world viewed human beings and viewed children. It just wasn't true. Really, before the start of the church that children were viewed in any way that was dignified or worthy. And my call to the church today is that like that's still our role. We are still going to be the countercultural force that when society, as it always does, when it moves towards godlessness and evil, degrades the most vulnerable, including children. There's always been a form of child sacrifice. Now it is being sanctified and made, you know, and leave.

equalized and celebrated by a particular political side, it is still the role of the church, as it has been for 2,000 years to say, no, they're equal in dignity and in worth, and someone's going to speak up for them, and it's going to be us. Ali, I think that's such a great point. And it's, again, Christians need to know their history because it was Christ. It is Christianity that has, in many ways, you could say, liberated women and children and certainly liberated slaves. You know, Christ brought this dramatic difference in what he preached from what was understood as reality by the Roman Empire and, you know, the Greco-Roman kingdom.

Christ comes in there and he says that in Christ there is no male or female slave or free. He says, let the little children come unto me. He says, you actually have to become like a child to enter the kingdom of God. He actually uses children as a model. You know, need to become like a child to enter the kingdom of God. And he came into the world as an embryo. I mean, Christ chose to enter human history for our salvation as a single cell embryo in the womb of his mother, in the womb of a woman, in a woman. And that just elevates women through Mary.

Women have been elevated and were elevated at the time in a dramatic way with early Christianity. And I think as Christians, you know, we need to be proud, proud of Christ, proud of Christianity. You know, people say, well, Christianity has done so many bad things. Well, certainly Christians have done bad things. You know, Christ is not responsible for our imperfections. He's actually here to heal them to forgive our imperfections. But because of Christ and the church he found it and the truth that he brought into a world that was very dark and is still dark today, he gives us that understanding. As you said, we are made in God's image that there is this radical equality of dignity that we all show. as human beings. And so we cannot treat the child as less than. You know, we cannot treat another person as less than because of their sex or because of their color or because of any other characteristic that we are all equal before God in value. And that's a beautiful and freeing message that we should be proud of and we should share. That's our responsibility to share that as Christians.

Absolutely. And unfortunately, we do have a lot to push back against in the way of abortion legislation right now. It is truly unfortunate and tragic, but it's also an opportunity for Christians who haven't yet found their voice or who have already been courageously pushing back against this to kind of renew our vigor and our eagerness to speak up for the most vulnerable. There is legislation in Maryland, Colorado. You already touched on the Colorado legislation. I think that we talked about the Maryland legislation last week.

And then there have been bills recently to expand abortion access, which is really kind of just a euphemism in California and New Jersey abortion coverage has expanded in private insurance plans. There have been 22 bills introduced in 11 states, California, Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, North Carolina, Nebraska, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, Wisconsin. There are also many blue states that are trying to legalize at-home abortions through abortion pills that are sent by mail. This is all, I'm guessing, because they're afraid that Roe v. Wade is going to be overturned. So they're trying to, I guess, enshrine abortion access into law. What's your, what's your take on all of that

and how should we respond strategically? Well, I first of all speaking, you know, as we were as Christians, this is, this is, I believe, demonic. You know, what's happening is demonic. Abortion's always been demonic because it is the destruction of God's image, is destruction of a child, it's the profound lie and and fear that's spoken over a woman and some of her most vulnerable moments when she needs the most support. And I don't think we should be surprised that this is happening. You know, the abortion industry has never been about compromise. The abortion lobby, Planned Parenthood, has never been about rationality. They've always been science deniers, if you want to use that popular term, denying the reality of humanity in the womb. You know, there's part of this mysticism

that says that abortion doesn't kill, that life begins at birth. You know, what more mystery idea is that. It's silly. It's not, it's, you know, completely inaccurate. And we should not be surprised that they are all out radicalized and working to implement some of the most insane of public policy and laws in the country that our country has ever seen. But this is the fruit of Roe v. Wade, Ali. I mean, I know your listeners are very educated and I'm sure many of them know this, but Roe v. Wade in 1973, when that was, that Supreme Court case was decided. And then the companion case was decided shortly after Dovey Bolton, these cases together effectively legalized abortion through all nine months for any reason. So it basically said that if a woman

had enough of a reason personally, emotionally, mentally, socioeconomically, and she and her doctor, presumably the abortionist, agreed to it, there should be no limit on when or how she has an abortion or for what reason. So that permits abortion through all nine months. So what these states are doing, They're saying, well, we're just protecting existing abortion rights. You know, like if you, if you, I was tweeting about the Colorado law yesterday as an example, the governor of Colorado just signed into law and what would legalize abortion through all nine months. I mean, it's already largely legal through all nine months in Colorado, but he, he further codified it without any conscience protections.

So that means if you're a medical professional, because he codified abortion as a right, now if you're a medical professional denying a woman a right, you know, if you're an OBGYN and you don't want to commit an abortion on a baby, that you could potentially be sued for that because you're denying this woman her right. You know, there's no conscience protections in the law. But that's the direct fruit of Roe v. Wade. And so, again, we should not be surprised by any of this. We should be heartbroken by it. We should be outraged by it. We should educate on it. We should advocate against it. I am very hopeful that this is the sort of the dying scream of the abortion industry right now. are screaming through this legislation, through their friends and media and politics. I mean,

even the media coverage of the story of the five babies that have been found in D.C. and that need justice that are, their remains are with their bodies are with the medical examiner's office, and we need to call them an order that autopsy to be done and justice to be served. Even the media coverage of that story, has, Ali has been insane. The CBS News affiliate has been attacking the activist, has been, you know, pulled in some rando experts and pro-bortion ladies saying that, You know, late-term abortion, it's fine. You know, just like not even, no, no inch of journalistic integrity or curiosity. No, like, oh, you know, what was the condition of the baby's bodies?

If these are nearly full-term infants, how do we know that it wasn't infanticide? If you find the body of a nearly full-term infant and you just like tuck it away and, you know, you give it to the police, the police just say, they were like, oh, hot potato, I don't know what to do. Okay, tuck it away. You just leave a, you find a body of a nearly full-term infant and you do nothing. Right. The authorities do nothing. I mean, what a tremendous dereliction of their duty.

They're completely shirking their duty to investigate what might be a murder case. And I think it is a murder case in UC. So, you know, we should not be surprised of the extremism here. Our response should be expose the works of evil. Expose, expose, expose them. do it lovingly, patiently, boldly, you know, do it faithfully. It's hard. I know you've been doing it for years, Ali. I know many of your listeners do it themselves. And I know it's hard. It's personally and emotionally draining. People like, you know, don't want to listen. They get

upset, whatever. But I guarantee you we're making progress. I guarantee you. And we've seen it. I mean, there have been, there has been more pro-life legislation in the last two years than in the entire history of the pro-life movement. More pro-life legislation. historic gain in pro-life laws, historic. And even the pro-abortion side is admitting this and saying it's the worst year yet. Worst year yet. You know, last year is the worst year ever for the, you know, pro-choice cause. That's good.

And Roby Wade may be on the chopping block right now. I know you've already done episodes on that explaining that. But, you know, this case that we are Dobbs v. Jackson that has been heard and is going to be decided very likely will cut at the heart of Roby Wade and further. empower states that are just to enact pro-life laws. And then on a cultural perspective, I think the more the works of evil are exposed, the more people wake up, the more many have the opportunity to turn and become pro-life. And I do see that happening. Live action is privileged to be on the front lines of that. Our job is to go out there and we reach millions of people every week with the

truth about abortion and human life. And we see hearts and minds change all the time. And it's very be encouraging. I was pro-choice now. I'm pro-life. Oh my gosh, I had no idea. That's how abortion was done. And I know you get that on your show too, Allie. You're changing hearts and minds. And it's because, you know, we're not out there just with our opinions here. I mean, we have opinions. But we're out there sharing truth that we've been entrusted with. You know, I'm not better than anyone else, but I've been given the opportunity to learn. And I want to give other people that opportunity to, because we live in a culture of lies. And the more that people learn, the more that people see, see the truth for what it is. And we can, we can change this. You know, we can make this country

pro-life. And I think with God's grace and his mercy, which there's plenty of it, we're well on our way. Look, I just a few years ago was someone who thought that I supported abortion exceptions. I mean, a few years ago, several years ago. And I still considered myself pro-life. What changed my mind? Literally just thinking about it. Now, obviously, the power of the Holy Spirit it through sanctification and changing my heart. And I'm sure that maybe live action at something to do that. I don't remember if there was any specific video or time that I saw. But I think I actually posted something about maybe being okay with abortion and rape or incest. And I got some pushback on it. Literally, I just hadn't really thought about it. That why would the circumstances

surrounding someone's conception change whether or not they should be subject to the death penalty as a child? that didn't make any sense. And yet I just really hadn't weighed the logic. It just kind of sounded like maybe it was reasonable or a moderate or a nuanced position to have. I think that's the position that a lot of people find themselves in. They just haven't thought about it. They really just haven't thought about it.

They don't know what abortion really entails. And people will say, as you mentioned earlier, when you explain what an abortion procedure literally is, which is brutal. It's just brutal in every single case. people will say that you're a line as if abortion could be done through non-brutal means, as if you could kill a child in the womb through like fairy dust or something like that. But people should really take courage in what you're saying, that when the truth is on your side, when you don't have to use euphemisms, when you don't have to use rhetorical tricks,

when you don't have to cover up what is actually happening. But science and pregnancy, everything we know about fetal development and gestation, when the procedure itself all helps our case, then you know that you're on the right side. And as you mentioned earlier, it's okay if people get angry. Yeah, people are going to get angry at the truth. That is not your indication of whether or not you're being obedient to God. Jesus is described as being full of grace and truth. Stephen is described as being full of grace and truth. We know how their lives ended. They did not win most popular here on earth. and yet they were fully obedient to God till the end.

So we have to judge our obedience, not by what other people say, but by what God says. And I think you're such a great example of that. And I'm just very thankful. I'm very thankful for what you do. So can you, any final thoughts? And where can people find you and support you if they don't already follow you? Thank you, Allie. And thanks for being a bold voice, that's consistent and just very, I think, just shepherding of people.

because people need to be, I think today, there's so much noise. And it needs to just be broken down. People need to help connect the dots, help break things down. I think you're right, using our minds, you know, God gave us her mind. Critical thinking is our best friend right now to wade through the mess out there. And if we just give ourselves a beat to take a pause and say, okay, does this make logical sense? Let me think this through. That will really serve us.

And it certainly has served me. And I know it served you. And you just said it served you in a huge way on the abortion issue to actually take a beat and think about it because everyone's just railing against, you know, pro-life or they're railing with their opinion instead of taking that pause to think. Just some final thoughts. I mean, we are, you know, I don't know when this episode is coming out. When is this episode coming out that we're right now? Today. You are awesome. Okay. So it's coming out today. It's Tuesday. The bodies have been in the, the bodies of these five babies have been in the possession of the D.C. Police and Medical Examiner

since last week. We're on, I think, day eight now, almost a full week. and it is not too late for an autopsy to be performed. I don't know if the autopsy will be able to properly see how the trauma was done to the baby's body and to determine the manner of death, but there's a shot that it can. And it's their responsibility to do it and then allow the remains to be given a proper burial. We can play a part of making that happen. Even with the autopsy, the police still need to investigate Chaseray Santangelo's clinic. that I'm pretty confident that if they did the right thing and investigated him, they will see him breaking, not just D.C. law, but if the feds get in their federal law, that needs to happen

ASAP. It should have happened years ago. Children have died since then because of the failure of action. So if you're listening, please take action. Liveaction.org. You go to the live action Instagram or my Instagram, and we have action items for you. Calling the medical examiner's office is one of the first things that you can do to urge them to take action. There's going to be other action alerts coming in the future. So please do that. There's a text action alert you can sign up for on the live action page and on my page. And that will give you minute by minute or day by day things that you can do. And I just encourage everyone, you know, this is a beautiful time to be alive. You know, this is a dynamic time to be alive.

We are so blessed. We're given God was with us. He will give us everything we need. There's a big drama playing out right now worldwide. And, you know, God is with us. And do not be afraid. Do not feel overwhelmed. I know we can contend to that, depending on how much news we're reading in any given day. But God foresaw all of this. And he has a specific plan for every Christian right now in our role to play in bringing hope, bringing peace, you know, being the peace amidst the storm, the peace that only Christ can give us. And by thinking, you know, not losing our heads, like you were saying, Ellie, thinking critically and being willing to speak out the truth that we do have. that will help other people think critically and other people to have peace in the midst of the storm. And I think the storm will pass. I do think that this dark time, it's going to get better. I think that our brightest days are ahead, both as a country, the United States, and as a world. I do think that God will bring many more souls to him, and we can be part of that. And so, you know, keep your peace. Don't lose your head.

And please call the DC Medical Examiner's Office and join us in this particular fight because we want justice for these five children. And may the justice for them helping about justice for us. other children. Yes. Thank you so much for that optimism and that hope that's something that we need, especially right now. I also encourage people to pick up your book. It's called Fighting for Life. And I think you can get it wherever books are sold. We have it in our house. It's a great book. It's very encouraging and empowering. So thank you so much. Thanks for taking the time to come on. I know this is going to edify a lot of people. Thanks so much, Ali. Hey, this is Steve Deast. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues

facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular.

This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, You can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.