Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 607 | John MacArthur, Hillsong Documentary & SBC Drama | Guest: Megan Basham

Episode Date: April 27, 2022

Today we're discussing a few stories going around the world of evangelical Christianity. First, we discuss recent allegations against John MacArthur and his church involving a woman who claims she was counseled to stay with a husband who was abusing her. Is this true? How should we respond? Then, Daily Wire reporter Megan Basham joins us to talk about a recent documentary criticizing Hillsong Church and the drama unfolding around Tom Buck, his wife Jennifer, and Karen Swallow Prior. --- Timecodes: (0:00) Introduction (1:30) Allie's take on the situation with John MacArthur's church (14:43) Allie & Megan talk the new Hillsong documentary (33:40) SBC controversy between the Bucks & Karen Swallow Prior --- Today's Sponsors: Dwell enhances your time in the Word with their read along experience: big, bold text accompanied by beautiful background art while you're listening to it being read. Go to DwellApp.io/RELATABLE to save 10% off a yearly subscription, or 33% off Dwell for life! Carly Jean Los Angeles is a helpful, inspiring resource to guide women in building capsule wardrobes to make getting dressed a joy every day. Go to CarlyJeanLosAngeles.com & use promo code 'ALLIEB' to save 20% off your first order! Birch Gold can help you protect your savings. Text 'ALLIE' to 989898 to get a free info kit on gold - there's no obligation to get this info! Heroes of Liberty is a beautifully illustrated series of children's books packed with American values. Go to HeroesofLiberty.com to subscribe for $19.95/month & get a free book when you use the promo code 'ALLIE'. --- Show Links: The Roys Report: "EXCLUSIVE: John MacArthur Shamed, Excommunicated Mother for Refusing to Take Back Child Abuser" https://bit.ly/3EQJgEq --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise- use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hey, guys, welcome to relatable. Happy Wednesday. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to go to go to ranchers.com slash Alley for a discount. That's good ranchers.com slash alley. Okay, guys, today we are finally talking about this story that came out a few weeks ago about John Arthur's Church and their excommunication of a woman who ended up being a victim of abuse. What really went on there? Is this reporter Julie Roy's who first came out with this expose? Is she just unfairly targeting Grace Community Church? Or is there some truth there that we really need to discuss and

understand? And then we are also going to talk about the Hillsong documentary. We are going to talk with my friend Megan Basham from The Daily Wire. This is really her beat. She kind of talks about the cross section of culture and politics and the evangelical church. And then we're going to talk about some things happening within the Southern Baptist Convention. And really the theme is abuse and allegations of abuse and how it's kind of unfairly used as a talking point to try to defeat your political enemies within the church, which is really ugly. So she is going to give us as a journalists some insight into these things. So first, I want to talk about myself this John McArthur story because I just want to tell you my reaction to it. And part of the reason why I haven't talked about it

quite yet. Julie Roy's, she is a journalist. She's had some really good reporting over the years. She's had some reporting that people would probably call petty because she seems to have had it out for John McArthur for a long time. She's accused him of being a prosperity preacher, which if you know anything about John MacArthur. He is not at all a prosperity preacher. And it just kind of seems like she's a little bit on the progressive end. I wouldn't call her like a full-on liberal, but she definitely seems to be against a lot of the more conservative Baptist within evangelicalism. And like I said, some of her reporting has been legitimate against some church leaders, but a lot of it has been more just kind of like petty and superficial and personal.

And because she seems to have some personal beef or a personal thing against John McArthur, a lot of people are quick to discredit her if she says anything negative about him. So a few weeks ago, she published an article titled, Exclusive, John McArthur shamed, excommunicated mother for refusing to take back child abuser. And I saw this and I was immediately disturbed. I thought, well, this can't be true. There's no way that this can be true. This has to be.

I didn't even know who Julie Roy's was when I first came across this article. I think one of you maybe sent it to me in my Instagram DMs. But then I read it and I was really disturbed because there's a lot of detail. There's a lot of seeming corroboration in this particular story. And then I went to Twitter. And I wanted to see if the people that I respect and even the people I disliked, and even the people I disagree with were talking about this, or if this really just was some propaganda from some rag

that just needed to be dismissed and was completely fabricated. And I was actually disturbed, not first, by what people on the other side of the political aisle or theological aisle were saying about this, but what some people on my side of the political and theological were saying about this, really kind of just like making fun of this person, Julie Roy's dismissing. this kind of proverbially rolling their eyes or almost laughing at this and just basically calling it gossip and calling her gossip. And I was really disturbed by that because of some of the details that I'm going to talk to you about because they're serious allegations.

They're serious allegations. And I was looking for someone to be able to fact check what was said in this article. And it really seemed like people who, like me, Our fans of John McArthur were kind of just dismissing this out of hands without even addressing what the allegations were. So the allegation is that John McArthur, that he took time during his service to call out a woman in his church named Eileen Gray for being unwilling to repent. That's on August 18, 2002. That's when that occurred.

And there's actually a video of this happening. So there's no question about whether or not that happened. The questions are what actually happened leading up to this? Why did he call this woman publicly to repentance, which is something that he has done several times. This is something that has biblical precedent that if a church member is unwilling to repent from a sin, this is a professing Christian, a member of the church is unwilling to repent from a sin. There have been steps taken to try to call this person out of sin to repentance. there is biblical precedent for a pastor of a church publicly, basically saying, you know, treat this person as an unbeliever.

This person needs to call to repentance. And the in the hopes that that person will be eventually brought back to Christ and to restoration. The question was, and I think Julie Roy's would say the answer to this question is no. The question was, was there reason? Was there reason for this? because the allegations are that the church was calling this woman, Eileen Gray, to repentance for the sin of not reuniting with her husband

who was physically abusing her and was physically and sexually abusing her children. Like that's what the title of this article says, that John McArthur excommunicated a mother for refusing to take back a child abuser. And we see that the. there are kind of several receipts of this, that they had been in counseling. There are even some recorded conversations between church counselors and between the couple

and between Eileen Gray about this. And she claims that she was basically shamed for separating from her husband and that she was pressured to reunite with her husband even after she said that he was abusive. But the church is claiming that they did not know that there was physical abuse. going on, that they did not know that there was any physical abuse of the children going on. And actually, that is verified by the timeline, that we did not know that Eileen Gray herself

did not know that her husband, David Gray, had been abusing her children, sexually abusing her children until much later. And he actually is now serving in prison for sexually abusing his children for being an abusive person, father, husband. But the question is, how much did the church know when they were counseling her to reunite with her husband. I think they would contend that they did not know everything that was going on at the time when they wanted that kind of restoration and reconciliation. And they did provide her with a safe place to live when they found out that she was in danger. But they would contend that they did not know what was happening with the children,

everything that was happening with her. and the other contention is also possibly that John McArthur did not know everything that was going on at the time of August 18, 2002, when he publicly called her to repentance. Now, here's the deal. The allegations of abuse here are very serious. What later came out, because he wasn't convicted until 2005, what later came out was heinous stories of abuse. They were heinous stories of abuse. very serious allegations. Eileen was in danger. Her children were in danger. And so I don't think this story needs to be dismissed out of hand, but I do think that we need to be really careful saying automatically that we know that

the church, that Grace Community Church and John McArthur knew everything that they needed to know in order to recognize that Eileen wasn't actually acting in sin by trying to separate from her husband, of what was actually trying to protect herself and her family. That's the question. And I think that the headline is actually very misleading. We know for a fact that at the time that John McArthur called her out publicly, that it was not known that this man who was a leader in the church,

John Gray, her husband, it was not known that he was abusing children. And yet the headline says that John McArthur called out a woman an excommunicated a woman who was trying to get away from a child abuser. Well, they didn't know at the time that he was a child abuser. So that in itself, that part of the headline is misleading, which I do think calls into question, okay, are you leaving out any pertinent details here about the timeline, about what else? The counselors at the church said, what other kind of protection and help was provided to her?

So all around, I just think Christians have to be very careful. I think we have to ask really good questions. Whether it comes to any side of the aisle, we don't want to just come to conclusions that confirm our priors because it helps us feel better about our preconceived narratives. You guys know, I'm a huge fan of John McArthur. I think that his ministry, I mean, the impact that he has had just by his faithful exegesis of God's word, I mean, it's hard to even put a number on that or quantify that because, he has so drastically not just edified his church, but has been a faithful minister that has

then had an impact on the world simply by boldly and clearly preaching the gospel. So, I mean, and theoretically on most things, I agree with John McArthur. And I just really, I appreciate his ministry. So you guys know where I'm coming from. Again, what I was uncomfortable with was the immediate and outright dismissal of this story by people who like me. are fans of John McArthur because, oh, well, it must just not be true. Look, we're talking about a child abuser here. We're talking about someone who's actually abused children. We're talking about a pedophile.

Like, who was in this church? Who? We don't know whether or not, like, what happened in trying to protect it. We just don't know. We don't know. So I don't think this story should be dismissed out of hand. I do think that we should take any story like this seriously. I am sure that Grace Community Church takes this seriously.

Church takes this seriously. This was 20 years ago now. I don't know how many people are still there who were there then. Again, we don't know everything that was known at the time. I want you guys to know that I'm not ignoring this story. I have tried and really had a hard time finding more details that can fill in and kind of iron out a lot of the confusion surrounding this. But as you will hear us talk about today, the church, just like any institution, is filled with, you know, imperfection. I will say that it is sadder when the church fails, as we will talk about today on this. It's more impactful. It's harder. It's more tragic when the church, who is supposed to be the light of Christ, fails. But the fact of the matter is is that every church is filled with different kinds of sin.

And what we have to do is in the pursuit of holiness and in the pursuit of compassion and obedience to God, we just have to make sure that we are seeking the truth and speaking the truth in love. And so I don't have some grand conclusion, some like grand clarity to offer you here. There's so much, again, that we don't know. I don't want you to think I'm ignoring this. But it's hard for me to talk about a conversation if I don't feel like I can add clarity to it. And because this is so confusing, because it's muddled with different kinds of history of pettiness and dislike and all of that and even politics, it's hard to bring anything edifying

to the conversation. So I just wanted you to know I'm not ignoring it. I take these kind of allegations of abuse very seriously while still believing that the ministry in the church of John MacArthur has had an amazing impact for the gospel. So I guess we just, we pray, we pray for truth, we pray for the protection and the help of victims to be the light and the holiness and the love and compassion of Christ in all these different kinds of scenarios and to take the truth and critical thinking whenever it comes to these kinds of conversations and stories really seriously. So I at least hope that helps. I hope that helps some.

Now we're going to talk about some other stories. We're going to talk about this Hill Song documentary, as I said, and then this other story within the SBC. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity and reality itself.

On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard question. and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts.

I hope you'll join us. Okay, let's talk about this Hillsong documentary. Have you seen it? So I've seen about half of it. And it was pretty fascinating, but I'm dying to hear your thoughts first. Well, I really, I want to hear your thoughts. So Hill Song on the other end is not a church that I traditionally support. And I'm actually pretty quick if I hear criticisms of Hill Song to, I mean, because we all have our own biases, it just kind of confirms my priors.

Like when we heard the everything about Carl Lynch about his unfortunate and very tragic affair that he was a part of, it's, I was very sad about that. It's devastating. of course there was no part of me that was satisfied or happy to hear any of that. But I did think, that doesn't really surprise me that much, just kind of based on what I knew about his career and also just the ridiculous and unfactual activism that he had been putting forth on social media. I'm like, oh, this kind of seems to like fit in with that. But I also have been, that's also why I have been slow to talk about the Hail Song documentary

because I don't want to talk about it in a way that is just, well, this is someone who has never really liked Hill Song talking about how terrible Hill Song is. And documentaries infamously, infamously can leave out information, pertinent information and make people look a certain way or make institutions look a certain way that maybe they're really not. And so some of the, you know, some of the documentary was, yes, I agree with it. And I'm like, yeah, that's obvious. This was obviously kind of like a celebrity church. There was some superficial and not so great things happening there. And then also I realized that it was probably created by people who just don't like evangelical Christianity.

And so maybe some of the portrayals weren't quite so accurate. But what did you think? Yeah. So it's funny because one, I also went, there's picking up on a trend. I think that, you know, the makers of this documentary at Discovery were pretty well aware of how well that Mars Hill podcast did. It was the number one podcast for just months. I mean, and that's pretty astounding to go. A Christianity Today podcast that was very focused on a specific subculture of evangelicalism was so huge. And so I think there was an effort in this documentary to dramatize

it. But what's funny to me is coming to it as somebody who like you, my priors are to be somewhat critical of Hillside doctrinally, how they practice their faith, how they, you know, even things like watching Carl Lentz go on, I can't remember if it was The View, but one of those shows. And, you know, when they tried to ask him about abortion or things that have been, should have been very easy to answer, he would demure. He would not be direct about what the Bible says about life, what the Bible says about sexuality. So he would just kind of shy away from those controversial topics to be very appealing to the world. And so, yeah, there's a certain irony now that, you know, probably the trendiest, new movement in film and podcasting, which is to take down some evangelical movement, has come

for Carl Lentz and Hillsong. But at the same time, as I was watching the documentary, I went, the parts of the criticism that resonated most to me were the parts that we've all been talking about for years now. You know, some of the things, like as far as being a prosperity gospel. Now, there is a real somewhat prosperity preacher right there. as someone who's rolling up in a limo, someone who's wearing tennis shoes that are thousands of dollars and hobnomming with celebrities. And, you know, so that stuff was very fair to me.

And you heard it voiced by some pretty doctrinally sound people. I thought, I don't know the backgrounds of everyone in this documentary, but like the guy behind the Preachers and Sneakers account on Instagram, I went, he sounds really sound. I really appreciated his takes about, you know, where would they put? Jesus in this VIP section that they have in their church. Why is there a VIP section in their church? Right. So those things struck me as pretty fair.

But then you had other things that you went, it sounds like you're just criticizing church. Yeah. You know, the idea that, well, they try to get other people to come to this church. Well, yeah, that's what you do at church. Right. Or they asked people to serve and didn't pay them. And I'm like, okay, so you don't have a lot of background experience in church. Like that, you know, some of these things were made to sound much more nefarious when I thought, that is normal.

That, you know, if you've ever been at church, these things are pretty normal. So in that sense, I feel like it didn't do itself many favors. And it was funny to come into it as somebody who was preemptively critical of Hillsong and go, okay, now I'm feeling like I need to defend them a little bit because you guys are attacking in some degree just evangelicalism. Yeah, what church is. I do think that it's a fair criticism when people kind of hold churches who at least allegedly cover up sexual abuse or who are secretly immoral when they hold churches to a higher standard than they do a secular institution. Like, yes, there are a lot of problems within our public education system with child abuse and covering up child abuse. There are lots of different problems and all kinds of secular institutions of this kind of abuse and predation and

covering up in bureaucracy and all of that. But I don't think it really helps Christians to say, well, this is happening in other entities too, because we should actually be held to a higher standard. I do think it's grosser. I do think it's more hurtful. I do think that it has a worse and larger impact when a church who doesn't purport to be perfect, no one has ever said that the church is supposed to be perfect, but we are supposed to be a. city on a hill. We are supposed to be salt and light. We are supposed to be representing Jesus who is perfect. We are supposed to be imitating Christ who is perfect. And so when we are calling other people to repent from sin, when we are calling other people to get out of the shadows, to get out of darkness,

to walk into light, to be ambassadors of light in all of these holy high callings that of course is made possible by grace, but is still a holy and high calling, when we're calling other people to that and calling out other people and the world for their sin. And then behind the scenes, this kind of nefarious activity is allegedly happening or is happening in some cases, no matter, you know, what kind of church we're talking about. I actually do think it's fair for the world and for Christians to say, that's even grosser. That's grosser. And that is worse than a secular entity doing the same thing.

Not that the criticism should be hypocritical or that it should be like the world should be criticizing things they shouldn't. But I actually do kind of understand the even greater reaction to allegations of this kind of immorality when it's in the church rather than other institutions, if that makes sense. Yeah. And, you know, I think that was probably the part that was most effective. And sadly, you know, maybe it wasn't as emphasized as some other elements because you went. it's an old story, right? It's an old story people using Jesus to try to get rich, people using the gospel to try to build an earthly ministry. And I thought that actually, to me, the most effect is I'm finished watching it on about halfway through the third episode. But I felt like that early part where they sort of showed how this fit into the 80s prosperity movement and the 90s and how Brian Houston, the founder of Hillsong, was really following a map and a formula that he saw built up in the United States. and he looked at that and went, okay, I can do that. And so the first thing you do is you tell people that, you know,

God's here to fulfill all your dreams, that, you know, you're here to be served by God and not serve God. And that was something that, you know, really stuck out to you in a lot of those early moments of the church that you went, this thing was built on sand from the beginning. And so there was a sense of maybe inevitability that it was eventually going to come to that. And, you know, I mean, as far as Carl Lentz, think I'm with you that you go when those revelations came out that he was having an affair, that, you know, he had been inappropriate with women on staff. I went, I'm not particularly

surprised by that. It seemed like he was pursuing worldly pleasure in a lot of fields from the get-go. It's really unfortunate and it's really sad. And I do think that just like with the rise and fall of Mars Hill, how they seem to do this too, although they would probably say that they're not. But in the Hillsong documentary and any accusations of the church that is then used, even though, as I said, I do think criticisms can be fair and even more intense criticisms of the church can be fair when it comes to this. when it's then used, as you said, to try to attack the foundations of what church is or attack Christianity as a whole or attack the Bible in general, it really reminds me of kind of the people on the left who say that because we've had slavery, because we've had different forms of discrimination, that the Constitution and that America's foundation is inherently bad, when actually

it was like our founding documents that gave us the ability to fight against institutionalized discrimination and slavery and things like that. The founding documents were good. Slavery is an example of us diverting away from our founding principles, not because of our founding principles. And in the same way, a lot of the ugliness that, you know, we see in the church today, and I'm talking about like not just alleged, alleged abuse, but when we see like real abuse and immoral activity within the church, it's not because of the Bible.

And it's not because of solid theology. it's in spite of it. I mean, the Bible is radical in its affirmation of the worth and the dignity of people. We've talked about many times as much as feminist, might hate the portion of Ephesians 5 that talks about wives submitting to their husbands as they submit to the Lord. The radical part of that when Ephesians was written was not wives submitting to their husbands, but telling husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church. The adult free male at the time in the secular and the pagan world then had no obligation to care for his wife, to love his wife, to sacrifice himself for his wife. What? That was not something that was expected of the adult free male at the time.

And so the church has always been a radical refuge for the most vulnerable for women and for children. And it is because of the basis of Christianity is because of what the scriptures tell us about women and children. that we are supposed to be that refuge. So when we do actually see cases of abuse or immorality that is victimizing people, that is a step away from what Christianity is supposed to be. That's not because of the tenets of Christianity. That is sin, unfortunately, which does exist everywhere. Well, and what I really, I will say that I did like about the documentary,

and I actually would tell people, you know what, yeah, watch it. I think it's worth watching. You know, like I said, there were parts of it that, where I felt a little defensive of some of the things they were going after. What was really kind of cool was how the sound doctrinal criticism stood out compared to, oh, you know, underneath, they really don't affirm LGBT people. So you looked at those two things and you went, one of these things is not like the other. And it felt like to me, as you were watching the series, that the people who brought sound biblical criticism just stood out compared to the, you know, kind of the typical what you would expect about me.

underneath, they're not really affirming. You're like, well, yeah, because, you know, that was actually one of the... Yeah, they try to conflate those two things to say, oh, they're not affirming of gay people. It's because they, you know, they covered up abuse or whatever it is. And to say that those two things are connected together when obviously that is false. That was one of the few things that, you know, I kind of, I've always gone, well, you know, give Hillsong this. They have stood strong on that issue.

And, you know, I wondered how if that would last, to be honest with you, because it felt like they compromised in so many other areas. I wondered if they would compromise in that area. So, you know, it was interesting when they brought that up. I went, that was one of the few things that actually, when I would look at Hillsong, that I went, well, they're standing by biblical principle on that topic, at least. Right, right. And, you know, the documentary alleges a lot of things about Brian Houston covering up child

debilious embezzling church funds. I'm sure there are a lot of details in that investigation that people are still digging through and uncovering. There are people that I know just like, I mean, just like anyone, there are people that are going to continue to go to bat for him who claim that these allegations are false, that they're not true, that he has been a leader of integrity. And there are people that I respect, that I really like, who are solid theologically who defend Brian Houston and say that these allegations are false. And so there's always going to be a lot of that, though, within the church, which does kind of make it complicated. It's really not always like a clear cut. Well, if you're theologically this bench, you're going to think this way. And if you're in this camp, you're going to think this way.

These matters can be complicated because sin and allegations of sin is really complicated. I mean, they just make things really messy, which is one reason why the grace that God gives us is so clarifying and such a gift. Well, and you kind of go, I don't know why we're always sort of shocked about some of these things. We definitely want to be held to a higher standard. But look, we don't have a Bible that gives us heroes, really. I mean, we have heroes of the faith that we follow, but all of them have these very, that's so much of what tells me that the Bible is a document I can trust because you have these stories that are super unflattering. And it would not give us these records of David's sin, of Moses's cowardice, of his testimony.

temper of the bizarre drunkenness of Noah of all of these things or even you know in the new testament you go paul's having to write these letters going tell those two women to quit bickering and fighting right you go look we're still in the flesh and we need that and that is why there needs to sort be these systems of accountability and maybe that's the theme of today as you go there seems to be breakdowns of systems of accountability that are there to protect us against the influence of the flesh which is going to come yeah and i'm not sure I mean, in some ways, maybe social media has helped because it is almost like a form of accountability, but at the same time, it just creates also these echo chambers and presumptuous people who their assumptions about a certain person and about a certain story are just confirmed. And the narratives are pushed that aren't necessarily true because people believe what they want to believe.

And so there are some goods to the technology that we're seeing that is, you know, revealing stories in the church. But there's also just like a lot of bads. And I think all of us need to just check ourselves and check our hearts and check our motivations and check our words and the questions that we're asking when it comes to any kind of troubling story in the church to make sure that we are still seeking truth. And we're not seeking either to dismiss stories that make us uncomfortable or to accept stories that make us comfortable in our biases. I think that we're probably called to that as Christians. I want to talk just briefly because some people were asking me about this and you kind of gave me some information a little bit. yesterday there was in the in the sub-twitter in the sub-twitter world of evangelicalism which i think you are probably more familiar with and inundated with an i am there was some drama between and i don't want

this is not just gossiping this actually is a story that really matters and you know is significant um there was some back and forth between um members of the s bc tom and jennifer bach they're a married couple of their conservative Christians. He's taken some heat for some conservative things that he has said on Twitter several times within the SBC and Karen Swallow prior, who I would call a progressive. She might not call herself full on progressive, but she's progressive in a lot of ways. Tell us kind of what you know, just what's public information about what happened, why there were these like weird cryptic tweets between these people and like, why does it matter? Well, you know, it's funny that you bring that up as we're talking about both of these other topics

because once again, we're getting back to the subject of abuse in the church. So when I look at this story that is still very much unfolding, you go, what we're taking away from it is part of what's really ugly, like, for example, with the John MacArthur, is this urge to take these messy stories and use them as some sort of political weapon. And as that's unfolding, I will say at this point, my perception is that is what has been happening with the Bucks. So I've spoken to Tom Buck and Jennifer Buck at length about what happened with them. So he is a pastor, as you said, in Texas, he is known for being a stalwart conservative, doctrinally conservative, and not shy about it. He's got some sharp elbows,

you might say. And his wife, who was also very lovely, very conservative, well, part of their story for years within their church, they have been really forthcoming. And, you know, I talked to a couple people who were like, look, this is not a new story. Everyone sort of knew that this is part of their testimony that when they got married and Tom Buck freely told me about this, look, I was very critical. I did not know how to be loving to my wife. And that was very hard for her. And she sought mentoring by another Christian woman who really encouraged her in that biblical model of being submissive and being quiet in her spirit and in that way, winning him over. And their testimony is that, look, this actually worked.

Because of that, Tom also got mentoring from the husband of that woman who was mentoring Jennifer Buck. And it transformed their marriage. And, you know, they both said this was 25 years ago. And one of the sort of gossipy elements of the story that was going around was that, you know, he knew it was an issue when she went to put a cold Coke can on his neck. And he reacted with a smack at her hand. and she was jarred by that, he was jarred by that. They both felt like that was a moment for whatever reason for them that they went, we have a problem here.

And so their testimony is that God healed him of that kind of, you know, there's been a question is this abuse. And they themselves said, you know, we might characterize his language, his, maybe you might say cruelty in those early years of their marriage as somewhat abusive. And I'm actually, it's funny, they were not shy to use that word. a little shy to use that word because, you know, I think these days we want to put everybody in the camps of abused and abuser and sometimes, you know, things develop and I go, I don't know, but this is their testimony. So at some point, Jennifer Buck wrote a lot of her experience,

some of what happened in her life. And I don't want to give, I'm hedging here because I don't want to reveal something that I shouldn't reveal. Of course. Of course. But she had some experiences in her childhood long before she met Tom Buck that were very difficult for her as a child. And she wrote about all of these things in a rough draft of her testimony that included this time in their marriage that they have been very open about. But these things she did not know that she was going to publish them. She didn't quite know. If you've ever written a rough draft of anything, you know, you just sort of spill it all out

on the page. And then you come back to it and go, okay, how do I want to frame this? How do I want to edit it? So they were friendly with Karen Swallow Pryor at the time. And this was several years ago. And I will say I have exchanged a few emails with Karen Swallow Pryor. So Jennifer Buc says as a friend who, you know, obviously, if you know, Karen Swallow Pryor, she is someone with some pretty strong literary bona fide.

She is a literature professor. She has written many books. She is well known for being a very good writer. She's a very good writer. Yes. So Jennifer Buck gave her this rough draft. She says I was looking just for feedback and a critique and, you know, what could I do with this? Well, it's funny because this gets very deep in the weeds of Southern Baptist Convention politics. And it's sad that we have to say Southern Baptist Convention politics, but that is a factor here. So as we're coming up on the SBC and the conservative wing of the Southern Baptist Convention is looking. to, they're seeking the presidency through Tom Askell. And he's sort of on a, you might call it a joint ticket with Vody Baccombe to be president of the Speaker's Conference. I think it is. So as this is going on. Great because I love both of them. I do too. So and Tom Buck is sort of

well known as one of their supporters, you might say. Well, basically a fairly disreputable. And I feel very comfortable saying that, a disreputable left-wing religious site called the Baptist Global Network released a story about Jennifer's draft that no one should have seen or had as far as she is contending except Karen Swallow Pryor. And to sort of truncate this, they start doing some digging and come to find out that apparently this draft has been passed around the SBC for a couple of. of years going from hand to hand of people in rather elite circles. Now, Karen Swallow Prior may disagree with some of this. So I'm going to put that in there. And they said no one else had it, but Karen Swallow

Prior. And that when this moment came for Tom Askell and Vody Bakum, who are, you know, seeking these positions of leadership at the Southern Baptist Convention, Tom Buck had gone to Willie Rice and brought up some issues in his church that led to really Willie Rice stepping down. And afterward, this document was released. So the Bucks contend that this draft of Jennifer's testimony that she had not given anyone permission to publish and certainly not share was now circulating and was published in some version as a means to harm them and to frame them as abusers. And so for me, looking at this story as it is still unfolding,

I go, what's really distasteful is this is the second year in a row that we have seen something like this within the Southern Baptist Convention. People who paid attention last year may remember that this question of how the SBC handles abuse was used, as you might say, a political weapon against the more conservative side. alleged victims were sort of drunk drug up to the podiums in to me as a spectator what was really distasteful in circus like ways and so now you have this happening and part of what's difficult for Jennifer Buck is she says you know there are things in there that I would not have shared and that make me someone who is an abuse survivor so while the SBC leadership is on one hand talking about caring for abuse survivors, her allegation is that they have been passing this around and certainly not caring well for her as someone who has an abuse survivor story.

So, you know, and that is very deep in the weeds and it's very complicated. But when you step back and look at the sort of macro lesson we need to be taking from this, it's that there's something really kind of gross happening. And that is this tendency to use this subject of. of abuse in very stark black and white ways to beat someone over the head as an enemy. And I think that is what we're seeing. And so that is the concern that I have.

That a lot of these things are very messy. And I also think there's a tendency to cast men who, like Tom Buck, is very willing to say, look, I was very critical and harsh with my wife in our early years and say, nope, that's an abuser. So we're done listening to you. And we don't believe in the power of the gospel. to redeem and we're not going to hear that testimony. Instead, we're just going to use it as a story of, oh, look, here's an abuser in the SBC where as his own wife is going, this was 25 years ago and our story is a story of hope and overcoming and redemption.

So she's very upset that it's being used in that way against her husband. Right. Because people who are seeing this, who should have never seen it, are not seeing the whole context and the whole story. And I just imagine it's very anxiety inducing for her. Gosh, I mean, that's like having your die or almost, like, released to the public and passed around without any regard to how you might feel. And if she is a victim of, in her words, a form of abuse, then, wow, you're kind of just, like, reliving that trauma, which is something that I thought that we cared about. And especially those who consider themselves kind of like the egalitarian, almost like feminist portion of the SBC, they say that they care about a lot. I think you're absolutely right that almost the theme is, like, allegations. of abuse rather than just being taken seriously and in like a somber way,

they're almost used as a cudgel, like against your political enemies, which is not actually taking allegations of abuse seriously. That is using people who are victimized by abuse or allegedly victimized by abuse in the church. That's almost like using them as a tool to advance your particular agenda or your vendetta against a person, which is not right. Like there is absolutely a need in a right and biblical way to talk about accusations of abuse and real abuse and what the church does right and what the church does wrong. 100%. I don't think those should ever be dismissed. I don't think that they should be laughed at. I don't think that they should be pushed to the side or belittled at all. And maybe we can say that the church traditionally hasn't done a good enough job in reporting on that and being transparent about that. Maybe we can go to that length and say that.

Absolutely. But I just think that we need to be sure that our motivations are pure and how we are going about this is in an actual biblical way. And I think maybe the theme of this episode is that at least in the conversations around this subject, I'm not sure that the church in general, at least our portion of evangelicalism is not everyone seems to be handling these conversations, which is with as much grace and the pursuit of truth as we possibly can. in. Well, and let me add one more thing that I should have said as I was first laying all this out in the pursuit of truth is that I did speak to Karen Swallow prior. And, you know, we've only had like one very quick email exchange and then I have just been busy. But she says her contention is that she understood that she was given this document in order to help Jennifer get it published. So I just want to be very clear that she said she was not spreading it around in a gossipy way. So, you know, and as I said, this is still unfold.

Yeah, but I believe her contention is that she thought Jennifer wanted her to share it with potential publications. So that is her contention. And again, you know, it's very sort of premature at this point. I mean, as you said, Allie, this story has been just sort of starting to make the rounds. And there's been a lot of backfiting trying to sift through details. So that's kind of the point I'm still at in the process. So, you know, I would say even take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. So this is my perception after having spoken to the principles over the last few days of what's

happening with that. But, you know, my analysis, like you said, so far at this point is that, yes, I do not like this tendency to use this question of abuse as a cudgel, as something to score political points. And definitely as, you know, last year watching what happened, you know, there were leaked documents, there were leaked audios or recordings. It felt like you were going in. into a presidential election and they were October surprises.

It was very political. And I went, yeah. You're talking about within the SBC. Yes, within the SBC and their convention. I went, nothing about this feels Christian, loving, biblical. It doesn't really feel like there's pursuit of truth here. That was part of what really bothered me about what happened last year and to sort of watch these same kind of things happening this year, this year in a pursuit of

control over an institution that heads up the largest Protestant denomination in the U.S. One other little wrinkle about this abuse thing that, you know, I've watched it as a trend unfolding as the thing that we're all using to beat each other up is it's even sort of coloring how we talk about scripture. And that has surprised me. You know, I feel like some of this tendency to want to say David raped Bathsheba. I've heard a few pastors that I really respect like John Piper say things like that. And I go to the text and I go, I don't think you have a defense for making that argument other than right now.

Abuse is kind of a very hot topic. And so we're looking for ways to pull that in. So I don't know if you've heard that. But, you know, I had heard. I have. I've heard that from progressives. I hadn't heard that from John Piper. But I do think that that is using kind of like our current cultural moment and imposing that on to scripture.

Maybe there's like a debate and discussion to be had about that. Right. I mean, the Bible is what it is, and God used David how he did. So it almost like, I mean, either way, God still redeemed and forgave and used David. But yeah, it is a little strange. It seems like it's trying to use that story to then color our cultural moment right now. Right. I go, maybe it's a discussion we can have, but to sort of boldly proclaim that the Bible says David raped Bathsheba, I go, that's a bridge too far for me.

I just don't see that in the text. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of things going on, and I think it's interesting for us to just talk about it. I think that we both realize, like we don't have a whole lot of conclusions to be able to say this is, you know, exactly what happened in every scenario.

But I do think it's important that people understand that, you know, I, we are not ignoring conversations like this. And really, we've already established the theme, but the conclusion to all of it is that thankfully, like we, as imperfect as all of us are, as many disagreements as we have, not just within the church, we're talking about like a subset of Protestantism, a subset of conservatism, of conservatism, and then like a subset of like Baptist Christian. So we're talking about like a very specific and small portion.

But even within that, we have so many disagreements and imperfections and sin and allegations and all of that. The good news is that we do serve a perfect God who, whose way is perfect, whose gospel is perfect, who promises that he is going to put an end to all disagreements and dissent and division, both within and without the church and that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. And of course, we are to be the best witnesses, the best ambassadors that we possibly can for that gospel, that at the end of the day, thank the Lord that we don't worship pastors, that we don't worship any people, we don't worship

any institutions, and that our disagreements on Twitter are not the end-all, be-all, but Jesus is and the gospel is, and his way is perfect. So if anyone is listening to this and thinking, wow, y'all got problems, yeah, every family does. Families do have problems. We're still sinful people, and these things aren't taken lightly, but your salvation comes from the Lord, and he is perfect, and he will never fail you. his compassion's never fail, his mercies renew every morning. And so even as we are imperfect, God is not. And so that is our hope. And he knows the truth. And one day all things hidden will be revealed. And that is also what we can take heart knowing. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know,

and I take heart in the New Testament. Sometimes when you read of the backbiting and Paul and Barnabas had their issues and, you know, the ladies that Paul had to write letters to saying, okay, get those two to quit bickering. I'm like, look, this is not new. You know, we, We're this side of heaven. We're still flesh. We still have sinful natures. It doesn't mean we ignore it or sweep it under the rug. But these things are going to come up in the church too.

And that is why I love our gospel because it doesn't hide those things from the world and doesn't try to pretend that we're going to be perfectly holy from then on out. Yeah. Yes and amen. Well, thank you so much, Megan, for taking the time to come on. I really appreciate it for you getting in the weeds and all of our SBC stuff that's going on. And I'm sure people will enjoy your insight. So thank you so much.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Thanks. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular.

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