Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 626 | Can Southern Baptists Be Saved? | Guest: Pastor Tom Ascol

Episode Date: June 8, 2022

Today we're talking about the Southern Baptist Convention and two big stories surrounding the organization. First, the recently released report on sexual abuse within the church. We go over some of the information in the report and how to navigate the situation as well as the SBC's handling of it over the years. Then, we welcome Pastor Tom Ascol back to the show to discuss the SBC meeting taking place next week in California, during which the SBC will choose a new president. Pastor Ascol is one of the candidates for the SBC presidency, and he tells us what he hopes his leadership would bring to the Southern Baptist Convention and about the direction he feels the organization should go regardless of who's leading it. We also discuss the accusations of political partisanship within the church and whether ideas like critical race theory and intersectionality are truly useful tools for understanding the Bible. --- Timecodes: (0:00) Introduction (0:33) Why are we talking about the Southern Baptist Convention? (36:25) Interview with Tom Ascol, SBC Presidential Candidate --- Today's Sponsors: My Patriot Supply — save $150 on their 3-month emergency food kit at PrepareWithAllie.com. CrowdHealth — get your first 6 months for just $99/month. Use promo code 'ALLIE' when you sign up at JoinCrowdHealth.com. Patriot Mobile — go to PatriotMobile.com/ALLIE or call 972-PATRIOT & use promo code 'ALLIE' to get free activation! --- Show Links: Guidepost's Report: 'The Southern Baptist Convention Executive Committee's Response to Sexual Abuse Allegations and an Audit of the Procedures and Actions of the Credentials Committee https://bit.ly/3Mymsvv We Have A Book https://bit.ly/3933DCQ --- Previous Episodes Mentioned: Ep 81: Purity Culture https://apple.co/3mviHfz Ep 128: Tom Ascol https://apple.co/3aFXuNf --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise- use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hey, guys, welcome to relatable happy Wednesday. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to good ranchers.com slash alley. That's good ranchers.com slash alley.

All right, guys, today we are going to talk about a little bit of a niche subject. and that is the Southern Baptist Convention. Why are we talking about this? Well, a couple weeks ago, was it? Yeah, a couple weeks ago now, the SBC released a report about sexual abuse allegations within the denomination that have occurred over the past 20 plus years. Guidepost was the organization that did the investigation,

put together the report. And this matters because that, The SBC is the largest Protestant denomination in the country. It is a very influential denomination within Protestantism in general. It's a pretty politically active denomination as well, pretty conservative. And yet over the past several years, there have been debates. There have been divisions about things like critical race theory, social and so-called racial justice, how to deal with the issue. of sexual abuse and sexual abuse allegations within the church, especially in light of the

bigger cultural conversation about Me Too. So there have been fault lines. There have been fissures within the SBC about how to approach these things biblically. And now the SBC is holding its annual meeting in Anaheim, California next week, where they will be voting on leadership positions. in particular, they will be voting on the president of the Southern Baptist Convention. And there is a candidate for that position named Pastor Tom Askell. He is the president of Founders Ministries. He's been on the show before. I have been on his podcast before.

He is the senior pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Florida. He has been the pastor for 36 years. And a few years ago, he spearheaded resolution number six on regenerate church membership and church member restoration. We are going to be talking to him at the end of this episode about that, about the need for repentance within the Southern Baptist Convention, what he hopes would come of his leadership, what he hopes for the direction of the Southern Baptist Convention,

whether or not he is at the head of it. He is also the primary drafter of the 2018 Dallas statement on social justice in the gospel. That is a statement that was a response. to the evangelical drift away from the gospel and towards the emphasis on social justice. I signed that resolution. John McArthur, Vody Bakum, signed that resolution, several others. And so Tom Askell will be, would be leading the convention in, I wouldn't call it a conservative direction in the sense that it's not politically conservative per se.

I would call it a biblical direction. and that's what you're going to hear him talk about, getting back to the Word of God, ensuring that how we are handling these very complex, cultural, social, political issues and just issues of course, theological gospel issues ensuring that we are handling and approaching all of these things biblically

and not adopting secular ideology or taking cues from the world in how we approach these various serious subjects. But before we talk to him about all of that, I'm also going to get his response to this sexual abuse allegation guide post report. I do want to talk about the report a little bit. We haven't yet because I knew I'd be having this interview with Pastor Tom Askell. And so I just wanted to put it all in the same episode.

But I've been wanting to talk about it since the report came out. Now, when it came out on May 15th, I was actually on a break. And so I wasn't even, I didn't even have the opportunity to talk about it on my show. And then I wanted to wait until we had all the information. and had the opportunity to talk to Pastor Askell and to put it all together. And so that's why we are talking about it today. And so let me just tell you a little bit about what this report says. I'm just going to give you an overview.

You can go read it online. We will include the link to it in the description of this podcast. And the reason again why this is important, it's not just because the Southern Baptist Convention is a large denomination, a very influential denomination within American Christianity. but also because of that fact, because of the influence that the SBC has, the mainstream media reports on the SBC a lot. And you will see, if you look this up on your search engine, you will see a lot of giddy reporting and a lot of giddy headlines about the divisions and about the hypocrisy of the SBC because of these sexual abuse allegations. And it's unfortunate when any reporter, when any journalist takes delight in this kind of thing, because they see Christianity kind of as an enemy. And so they're clamoring for any opportunity to try to highlight its hypocrisy or its sin.

However, we can acknowledge that fact and not discredit the truthful reporting about the sexual abuse allegations. And we can acknowledge that there may be some nefarious motivations behind people who have always hated the SBC, who have always hated Protestantism or Christianity, and they want to see the SBC crash and burn. We can acknowledge that without dismissing the reality of the grotesqueness and the depravity that we see reported on in this guidepost summary. I do think that this is something that we have to take seriously. We can't just dismiss it as the secular world or the mainstream media or haters of the church wanting to destroy the church that may all be true. And yet we should be heartbroken by some of the things that we see in this particular report. So I'm going to talk about some of the points in it and what I think is the biblical point of it all

and the biblical response to it all before we get into the interview with Pastor Tom Asks, Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded, in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed. You can watch this T-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. So the SBC Guidepost Report is titled the Southern Baptist Convention Executive Committee's Response to Sexual Abuse Allegations and an audit of their procedures and actions of the credentials committee.

So this is conducted in response to a number of allegations of sexual abuse by SBC affiliated pastors and a lack of response to these. Here's a quote from it. At the 2021 at Nashville Convention, calls for reform reached a crescendo. The messengers overwhelmingly voted to approve a task force to supervise an independent investigation into the executive committee's handling of sexual abuse allegations. The motion called for an inquiry into the actions and decisions of EC staff and members from January 1st, 2000 to June 13th, 2021. So some of the results are this. It revealed that for many years, this is a quote, for many years, a few senior again.

executive committee leaders, along with outside counsel, largely controlled the EC's response to reports of abuse. They closely guarded information about abuse allegations and lawsuits, which were not shared with EC trustees and were singularly focused on avoiding liability for the SBC to the exclusion of other considerations. In service to this goal, survivors and others who reported abuse were ignored, disbelieved, or met with the constant refrain that the SBC could take no action due to its polity regarding church autonomy, even if it meant that convicted molesters continued in ministry with no notice or warning to their current church or congregation. Now, that part might be a little bit confusing for a lot of you who are not in the SBC or

especially those of you who are not Protestants. So Protestantism, especially the SBC, is not like the Catholic Church in that there is not a uniform hierarchy. So the president of the SBC doesn't go around to all the SBC churches and tell them what to do or how to preach. There really isn't a leadership structure like that. There isn't a cohesive hierarchy within the SBC. All of the churches are part of the SBC voluntarily and some of the tithing goes to some SBC causes, but they are not told, you know, what exactly they have to preach or what.

they have to say or that they can and can't say certain things exactly. The local churches are autonomous. And so the head of the SBC, the executive committee does not necessarily have the authority to go to some random SBC church in Kentucky and to tell it how to handle its business. Now, that does not mean that there were not failures, though, according to this report of the executive committee. There is an allegation included in the report. that former president of the SBC President Johnny Hunt had sexually assaulted a woman back in 2010, and there were other allegations of the mishandling of abuse accusations and the mistreatment of victims that was chronicled in this report. The report says that the executive committee's response to some accusations of sexual abuse was largely driven by senior executive committee staff members,

particularly Augie Boto and then the EC General Counsel and later interim, EC president and outside counsel James Gunther, James Jordan, the firm of Gunther, Jordan, and Price. Those who reported abuse, according to this report, were largely ignored or they were told that the SBC had no power to take action. That is what their report says. And then staff working for Mr. Boto were maintaining a list of accused ministers. Baptist churches, but there is no indication that anyone took action. The list has over 700 alleged abusers with 409 believed to be SBC affiliated at some point. The report also says that there is

intimidation of victims or advocates. So the executive committee leaders allegedly denigrated the people who spoke out as opportunistic, having a hidden agenda of lawsuits, wanting to burn things to the ground, acting as a professional victim. The Baptist Press, which is the EC's communication arm, was used to portray survivors in an unflattering light and mischaracterized allegations. In March of 2019, Jennifer Lyle was asked to disclose her sexual abuse at the hands of a former seminary professor through a first person account to be published in the Baptist Press. But the Baptist Press editors allegedly changed the account to read as if Ms. Lyle was consensually involved with her alleged abuser and that she had a, quote, morally inappropriate

relationship with him. And then the Baptist press actually retracted the story in October of 2019. There was a list of key recommendations. There was a lot more. There were a lot more accusations and a lot more details in there of what this report says has happened in the SBC over the past 20 plus years. And then at the end of their report, they give some recommendations. They say that the SBC should form an independent commission and later establish a permanent administrative entity to oversee comprehensive long-term reforms concerning sexual abuse and related misconduct within the SBC restrict the use of NDAs and civil settlements related to sexual abuse matters unless requested by the survivor adopt a declaration of principle setting out

standards regarding sexual abuse allegations and handling acknowledge those who have been affected by SBC clergy sexual abuse through apology and a tangible gesture and prioritize the provision of compassionate care to survivors through providing dedicated survivor advocacy support and survivor compensation fund. Now, the response to this has been, I think from people within the SBC, it's been a lot of sadness, including me. I have gone to SBC churches my whole life. We've always gone to Southern Baptist churches.

My experience, of course, has been a good experience. But I understand that that is not true of everyone. some people have had a harsher experience with what they might call purity culture. And I've talked about the goods, the bads, and the uglies of purity culture and how I think the church can approach the subject of sexual purity with young people a lot better with the focus on holistic holiness rather than upholding like marriage and sex as this idol. And so we can link that past episode. I've talked about that before.

but just because I had a positive experience, that does not mean that I am negating at all. The negative experiences that some people have had with the church or the denomination in general or with a particular leader that sexually abused them. And then to take your complaints to the people in charge who you are told, especially if you take your complaints to a pastor, I mean, you're told that this person is supposed to be your shepherd. This person in a way is supposed to be your protector because they are a shepherd of a flock, and that is what a shepherd does. It protects its sheep. And for that pastor to then turn around and to

chastise the sheep for getting abused and to coddle the wolf. I mean, that's about as wicked as it could possibly get. So I am thankful for this report. And yes, again, I know it's going to be used by people who have nefarious motivations who don't like the SBC simply because they don't like the politics that the SBC represents, that SBC is mostly conservative, and they just have it out against the church. They think that the church and Christianity is bad in general. Yes, they are going to be people with those kinds of negative motivations, absolutely. But look, if we believe that, if we believe that God is true, and we believe that God is just, and we believe that God is love, if we believe everything that the Bible says about God,

And if we believe Jesus's promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church, then we certainly should not be afraid of honesty and transparency and accountability. Yes, we should use discernment. We should be asking ourselves questions about anyone who would launch accusations at the church out of not love and hope for victims, but out of hatred and malice. Yes, we can use discernment and distinguish between legitimate criticisms and legitimate accusations, and those that start with false pretenses. And we can ignore the outside noise and look inward and say, what is our local church doing to ensure that there is accountability,

that there is transparency, that there is protection, and that there is always a listening ear for those who have suffered abuse. And what guide rails are we putting in place? What protections are we putting in place to ensure, that this kind of thing does not happen, especially to children. You know, we talk about a lot that children are always the unconsenting subjects of progressive social experiments. We talk a lot about how progressive society tends to put children on the altar first, whether it's through literal child sacrifice like abortion, whether it's through destructive gender ideology,

the mutilation of not just their innocence, but also their bodies, whether it is draconian, unscientific COVID restrictions that force kids into isolation and remote learning and driving them into depression and isolation-induced suicide. So we see that a lot from progressivism, but that does not mean that progressivism is exclusively or solely responsible for the sacrifice and the victimization of children. It's one form, I believe, of wickedness, but any kind of predation is first going to seek out the most vulnerable. And children are always the most vulnerable and the most marginalized group in the world because of their inability to protect themselves.

And it is beyond evil. It is beyond corrupt for someone who leads not just a denomination, but particularly a local church, to brush that kind of abuse under the rules. rug. Look, we are used to the secular world sacrificing children. We are used to hearing about secular entities very often the public education system on sexually abusing children. Like, we understand that even in the foster care system, unfortunately, there is a lot of sexual abuse, physical abuse of children. We understand that that happens in the secular world in a variety

of ways. The church has always been called to something different, as we've talked about so many time since the beginning of the church. The church, one of the things that has set the church apart is its protection and preservation of children who in secular society are always seen as less than. They're always pushed to the side. They're always subjugated in some way. Christianity comes on the scene and follows Jesus who says, let the little children come to me and do not hinder them for to such as these belongs to the kingdom of heaven.

And so there was a radical difference in how Christianity approached children and the marginalized and the most vulnerable and the abused and the victim from its inception. And we are still to be carrying that torch today. And any pastor who is in a position of authority, who is in a position of protection, to fail to protect the most vulnerable and to hold to account those who victimize the most vulnerable in their church. I mean, it's just beyond egregious. So I'm thankful that we are seeing this. I'm thankful that we are seeing this kind of report and transparency. If only so that local churches will ensure that they have the systems that are set up to prevent and to deal with this kind of

issue in a way that is biblical. And rather than just trying to, and Pastor Tom Askell will talk about this, about the importance of involving civil authorities when it is called for, rather than just trying to hide this sin, ensure that the sinners who actually commit crimes are dealt with in a way that is proportionate to their crime and also honors the experience of the victims. Now, that does not mean that we follow suit with the world who just says that you believe all women because that's the cultural moment that we, that we're in. And by the way, Even the secular world doesn't actually believe that because they pick and choose which women they want to believe based on how politically convenient or expedient it is for them. In the Old Testament, we see that God cares about the rights of both the accused and the accuser.

There is a punishment for false allegations in God's law giving to ancient Israel. If someone made a false allegation, they had to bear the punishment that would have been given to the person that they falsely accused had that person. to had that person been proven guilty. And so false allegations are serious. I think every leader of a local church has the responsibility to weigh accusations, to look at the facts, to be discerning, of course. But that never means brushing them under the rug. That never means that we assume nefarious motivations from the people who are making the

accusations. I think that is a sin. And here's why, biblically, I think that this. that it's okay that this matters and that this is a bigger deal to both us and the world than say a secular institution being guilty of the things that we see. And yes, of course, we know that the Catholic Church is rife with sexual abuse of children. There have been many reports that have come out about that. But I don't think that we should use this opportunity to say, well, this isn't as bad as that

this isn't as bad as that. The fact of the matter is is that this is happening within our denomination. This is happening within a major Protestant denomination. And here's what I think scripture says about it. Scripture has a lot to say about this, but actually my pastor a couple weeks ago talked about this passage, Matthew 18, 5 through 6 that I just, that I just kind of alluded to a few minutes ago. Whoever receives one such child in my name, Jesus says, receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones to, who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Woe to the world for temptations to sin, for it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes. Now, Jesus is surrounded by children in this moment, but when he references one of these little ones. He is not specifically talking about children, although it can include children. He is actually talking about his followers. He is talking about people who believe in Christ. And he is saying anyone who puts a stumbling block in front of anyone who believes in me, it is better for him that he would have a heavy stone tied around his neck. Think about how awful this would be and thrown into the depths of the sea than to bear the consequence of

bringing temptation to a person. And my pastor pointed out that this word stumbling block or causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin. Some versions say to stumble. That's what the NIV says, that that word there is scandalizo. The Greek word is scandalizo. And that means to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way upon which another may trip and fall. or it could also mean to offend. So it could mean to entice to sin. It could mean to cause someone to distrust or desert the person that they were supposed to be following and trusted and obeying. It could mean to cause someone to fall away.

And you can hear in that Greek word, scandalizo scandal. When a scandal happens that causes someone to distrust the institution in which that scandal happened or the person that was involved in that scandal. If you think about a scandal, you kind of think about this revelation about someone that you think, thought you knew, maybe you thought was a good person, maybe not always, but you had kind of an assumption about who that person was. And then they're entrapped in some scandal and you realize they are not who they said that they were. And that causes distrust that may cause detachment from that person or institution. That's really what that word scandalizo means. And I wanted to see where it shows up in the rest of scripture to kind of show us what exactly does Jesus mean by

this. If you cause one of these little ones who believes in me to stumble or to sin or to fall away, what does Jesus mean by that? And I think the rest of scripture illuminates that. In 1 Corinthians 812 through 13, God through Paul says, thus sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat lest I make my brother stumble. Now in this context, he is talking about meat sacrifice to idols. Paul is saying, look, some of you, you're convicted when you eat meat that sacrifice to idols. You think that you shouldn't do it. And some of you have no problem with doing it. And look, this is not what righteousness is about. Righteousness is not about the kind of food

that you put in your body. It's fine either way. The only time he is saying that it is sinful to eat meat, sacrifice to idols, if in doing so you are offending your brother or sister in Christ who thinks that it is sinful for meat to be a sacrifice to idols. And in this case, he is saying that it is someone with a weaker conscience or with a weaker faith who could not handle eating meat sacrifice to idols. And out of the spirit of humility, out of the spirit of love, out of the spirit of respect, and not wanting to cause your brother to be tempted to sin against what he sin against or oppose his own conscience, you would abstain from eating meat. So it really is all about self-service to your brother or sister in Christ.

And then Romans 14, 15 through 19 says something similar. For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. But what you eat, do not destroy the one by what you eat. Do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then let us pursue what makes for peace and mutual upbuilding.

That's what it's about. It's not really about what you are eating. It is about the conscience of your brother or sister in Christ. It is about ensuring that they are built up in love and that whatever, you are doing, whatever they are seeing you doing is pushing them toward the Lord and pushing them toward truth and in love. And so when you look at something that is happening in the SBC like this, why I think that it matters more than some secular entity doing what they do, abusing and sacrificing children, is because the church is supposed to be the light of the world. The church

is Christ's bride. It's still full of fallen people. It's full of people who send. So unfortunately you are going to see different kinds of sin, including sexual abuse tragically. It shouldn't be so, but unfortunately, because you don't even know if everyone within a church is even a Christian, but because people fall and because people sin, unfortunately, things like this are going to happen. And it's always sadder when it happens within the church than when it happens outside of the church, because we are supposed to be an example of love. We are supposed to be the refuge for the children. We are supposed to be led by a shepherd who protects the sheep. There aren't supposed to be wolves among us. There aren't supposed to be wolves among the flocks. And unfortunately,

not only are there wolves among the flocks, but also sometimes those wolves, again, are protected by the people who are supposed to be their shepherd. And I do think that that is even worse than what happens in the outside world because it causes a stumbling block. It causes a scandalizo. It causes a scandal. It causes a scandal. that can cause people to distrust God. Now, we understand that God is sovereign over people's salvation. Of course, we believe that God is going to preserve his saints. And we believe that it is the gospel that is good, that is Jesus who is perfect, that no entity, no denomination, no pastor, no leader is the centerpiece of or the keystone of our faith.

Christ alone holds that. And yet, these leaders in the church, they are supposed to be representatives of Christ. And when we fail in this way, not just when there's abuse, but when there's abuse cover-up, I mean, we really fail at the core mission of the church, which is to be a light of the gospel and also be a refuge, a safety for the most vulnerable. And when we fail to do that, again, we cause a scandal. We cause a stumbling block for that. And so I just pray, by the grace of God, that God, that God.

would use this report that God would use this moment to help those within the SBC who need to repent, to repent, to ensure that there are systems and guardrails in place to protect victims, to prevent future victims, to listen to victims, and that people would have the courage to come forward, and that we would stay rooted and grounded in the love of Christ and the truth of His scripture, which is sufficient in dealing with all of these things that we are talking about today. It is sufficient in guiding us in the right direction toward accountability and justice for these egregious sins and crimes. Now, one thing I will say before we get into the conversation with Tom Askell, and I just think it's worth noting, and I wasn't sure exactly where to put it in,

but because some people are talking about it, I wanted to point it out. Now, Guidepost Solutions, this is the organization that did the independent report on the sexual abuse allegations and the alleged cover-up. And they did tweet just the other day on June 6th, a picture of the Pride flag with the black and brown and then the rainbow and tweeted, Guidepost is committing to strengthening a diversity, equity, and inclusion and strives to be an organization where a team can bring their authentic selves to work. we celebrate our collective progress toward equality for all and are proud to be an ally to our LGBTQ plus community. Now, I'm a little confused about this because you might not know this, but the SBC's tithing dollars, like tithing dollars from the SBC churches went to the creation of this report, which

was led by Guidepost Solutions. And I was under the impression that Guidepost Solutions was a Christian organization. I guess they're not. And so I do think it's a little bit confusing that the SBC would hire this kind of independent organization that holds values that are completely opposed to the gospel, that are completely opposed to everything that Christianity says is good and right and true, and that our tithing dollars would be funding an organization like this. So I do want to note that. I understand people's complain about that. I have a complaint about that. There seems like there could have been better options

out there. However, I don't think that this is a reason. I'm not saying anyone is doing this, but just to note, I don't think this is a reason to discredit the findings that we see in their report. I think it's a shame that this is the organization that was chosen and that they tweeted something that is opposed to what we know about biblical marriage and Christianity. However, I don't think that this should be an excuse for us to look the other way and to say, well, this report is no longer credible. Let us use discern it. Let us use. wisdom. Let us ask for humility and grace for God to guide us in the right direction. And let us pray for these victims and the victims' families who have had to deal with not just the pain of the experience,

but also the secrecy and the shame that has been placed on them, unfortunately. And let us mature into Christ that reminded me of a passage that I just want to read before we get into the conversation with Pastor Askell. And I think that this is what we should all be striving toward. This is from Ephesians 4. And He gave, Christ gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds, and teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the full, of Christ. That's a big and high calling so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro

by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness and deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth and love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head into Christ, from whom the whole body joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it build itself up in love. That is the goal in the calling of the church. Therefore, that is the goal in the calling of the SBC. And may we pray for the manifestation of this as we go into the convention of the conference next week in which leadership will be chosen. Let us pray for the direction of the largest Protestant denomination in the country that has, in effect on the entirety of the world,

with its mission organizations, we want people leading this denomination who are committed to making sure that the body of Christ grows so that it is building itself up in love. Pastor, thank you so much for joining us. Second time that you're joining us. And today we are talking about the SBC, the Southern Baptist Convention, your candidacy for the president of the Southern Baptist Convention. First, tell us what is going on right now in the next few days in Anaheim, California, and why does it matter?

Well, in the Southern Baptist Convention, we're going to meet next week in Anaheim. Okay, got it. Yeah, that's right. So we're meeting next week in Anaheim, California. We'll elect a new president and vice president and a new recording secretary and the new president of the pastor's conference. My friend, Voddy Balkan is running for the Pastors Conference presidency. My friend Javier Chavez is running for the recording secretary, a position, which is a very important position in the SBC. And as you probably are well aware of, Allie, you've talked about it.

I know you are. The SBC has had a lot of problems over the last several years with these kind of cultural winds that have blown through all of the institutions of our nation and really Western civilization. And churches have not been immune. And that's certainly true of Southern Baptist churches. And more significantly, of the institutions and agencies that the 47,000 Southern Baptist churches own and operate. And so we've had lots of difficulties for years that have been building. And then most recently with the Sex Abuse Task Force report that has come out over the last couple of weeks,

it's just more difficulties have been uncovered. And we're having a time of reckoning in the convention. And we are certainly being faced with the reality that we need to repent and return to a fear of the living God. And that's my hope. If God gives me opportunity to do so, I want to herald that message far and wide. A lot of people think that this breaks down in the SBC as a fight between the liberal wing and the conservative wing. Would you say that that's a correct assessment, or is it a little bit more complex than that? Well, it's a complex issue, because there's lots of things involved. And as I've mentioned, these cultural winds and the ideologies from the world have crept in. But beyond that, we have forsaken our own ecclesiology.

is our own understanding of what the Bible calls a church to be and really what Bible calls a Christian to be. And so we need to do deep spiritual work and deep theological work as well as deep structural work and how we handle our institutions. Like we have six seminaries, and those seminaries educate one third of all the evangelical seminary students in North America. We have two mission boards, and those mission boards constitute the largest missionary sending force in the world right now. And so we have multiple layers to the Southern Mabbs Convention. Again, 14 million members in those 47,000 plus churches. So you can imagine there's all kinds of complexities involved with the problems we face, assessing those problems honestly, and then charting a course

forward to address them that is faithful to the Word of God. One of the biggest arguments or debates in the SBC over the past couple of years has been over social justice and what some people refer to as racial justice. There are people within the SBC who say that there is a problem of certain leaders and pastors, churches, embracing the tenets of critical race theory and intersectionality without, of course, using those terms. And many of them deny that they are employing the tactics of CRT. And then there's a wing of the SBC that, like I said, who either they deny the existence of CRT, or they say, well, it is actually a useful tool. It's a useful tool for studying the Bible. There is actually some, there are some redemptive and legitimate aspects of CRT that do need to be

employed in preaching and teaching the word. Just, I know that we could talk about that alone for an hour, but just give me an assessment of where we are there. Is that still a hot topic of debate within the SBC? Well, there's a... have been many people that have tried to sublimate it and keep it from being a debated topic. As you know, in 2019, we had this resolution, infamously remembered as Resolution 9, that came to the floor of the convention. That resolution was on critical race theory intersectionality. The original author of the resolution, a member of a church, actually a pastor in California, wrote it in order to renounce critical race theory at intersectionality. The resolutions committee

that J.D. Greer had appointed that year, took that resolution completely rewrote it to say 180 degrees opposite of what the author intended, and then they presented it to the convention. I and others tried to fight against it. I wanted to see it amended significantly. We were defeated on the floor by the platform, and that resolution passed. It's grievous that it passed, and it was called, and the critical race theory was called, along with intersectionality, as helpful analytical tools. Well, I've attempted since then to try to get that resolution rescinded or to have a vote on the floor of the convention to renounce it or to have another resolution. We had 1,300 Southern Baptist sign a resolution last year submitted to the committee. The committee refused to bring it out.

And so the problem about critical race theory intersectionality, yeah, it still is an issue. We're not being allowed to talk about it. And so it's kind of been sublimated. And what's happening, I fear, is that people are no longer willing to use the language because they recognize that doing so marks them out pretty significantly today. But they're still imbibing the concepts and the principles and they're advocating those things. And our establishment leaders in the SBC, those on the platform every annual meeting, they refuse to let us have an honest conversation about it. So that's part of the reason that I allowed myself to be nominated for our,

our president this year. So hopefully we can begin to at least talk about these things openly and honestly. Yes. And you and I have both talked about this. You've talked about this very thoroughly what CRT and intersectionality looks like within Christianity from the pulpit, even if they are not using explicitly academic or Marxist language. Can you talk about how that may show up for people who say, well, you know, I think that my pastor may peddle in this stuff, but I'm not totally sure because he's not outwardly quoting or explicitly quoting Ibramax Kendi or, you know, one of those authors are Carl Marx. So what does that look like? And why is CRT not a tool that should be employed when trying to read and understand scripture? Yeah, well, let me just cite Kevin

DeYoung in a recent sermon that he preached at the T4G. conference, he talked about people that came to his church and said that their pastor had said, you need to repent of your whiteness, that whiteness is a real problem. And they're just, they're shocked by that. Well, that kind of language is born out of the ideology that is embedded in critical race theory, and along with intersectionality. So this idea that because of the color of your skin or because of your gender or because of your religion or your able-bodiedness or whatever it might be, you are either in an oppressed class or the oppressor class. And so when you begin to hear things like this is, look, we need to acknowledge that there's majority culture. We have

been abusing the minority culture inevitably for generations. This whole system has been rigged to benefit us, not them, to oppress them. And we need to listen to these voices. We need to recognize that the disparity in outcomes in our society are exclusively the fault of the oppressiveness of whiteness or the oppressiveness of the powers that be in majority culture. This is what CRT says. Absolutely. Absolutely.

And particularly, I mean, CRT deals primarily or exclusively really with race issues, racial issues, but it bleeds over into everything to men, women issues, to adult children issues, to issues of employers and employees. I mean, there's no thing that is left untouched by it. because it is a worldview, and it's a worldview that doesn't just assess what is. It's activist. Those who promote critical race theory, those who call themselves critical race theorists, they tell you up front that we are seeking to deconstruct the hierarchies that are present in society

because we think there is a more just way forward only as we do that. And again, it's the cultural winds of today. It's the air we breathe. and if you're not consciously standing against it, you're probably imbibing in it in ways that you may not even be aware of. Yes. And there are conservative Christians, I would say otherwise conservative Christians who I really like. I have a lot of friends and probably a lot of listeners to this podcast who like them and listen to them who will say that they believe that we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to CRT. I mean, these are not people who are ignorant. They are very smart people who love. God and yet they will say, well, because CRT says some things that are true, we should try to

redeem it. We should try to, you know, spit out the bones, keep the meat, all that stuff. But the reason why really that doesn't work is because of exactly what you just said, it really is a holistic worldview. And just because a worldview might say something that is true doesn't actually mean that we need to adopt some of it. I'm sure that there are things that Buddhists believe that. Hindus believe that are true, but they are only true insofar as they happen to echo scripture.

They happen to echo what God says is true. So if that's the case, if CRT just happens coincidentally to echo something that God says is true, which, for example, you could just say CRT says prejudice is real. Okay, sure. We agree that hate can happen, that injustice can happen, that laws can be unjust. That doesn't make CRT something that needs to be redeemed. That just means the Bible said it first. That just means that scripture said it first, that the creator of truth and justice said it first. So we don't need. We don't need the meat that comes with CRT if scripture has already spoken to the things that we are saying CRT speaks to, correct? That's exactly right. And when people do that and they say, well, we believe this part of CRT, not that part of CRT, what I usually

respond with within what you believe is not CRT because they don't let you chop it up that way. And you need to think more carefully about those issues. And to your question about why is this incompatible with the gospel or with the Word of God, well, the Bible teaches that we have a real unity as the human race. First of all, every person is made in the image of God. It doesn't matter what your ethnicity, doesn't matter what your sex is, or your age or anything else. All of us are God's image bearers, and therefore we are worthy of dignity and respect because we've been created in God's image. But we're also unified in sin, and all of us have sinned in our first father, Adam. And so sin is the universal condition of every person, those that might be classified as oppressors or oppressed

or whatever. What is fundamentally important about us is that we are all one in sin. And then by God's grace, because of what he did for us in sending his son, the Lord Jesus, to take sin upon himself and to suffer in behalf of sinners so that all who trust in him can be reconciled to God and have sin forgiven by grace, all Christians are one. We're unified. There's not male or female or Greek or Jew or slave or free. We're one in Christ. And that unity, those unities, are completely destroyed whenever you start talking in terms of critical race theory and intersectionality, which are inherently divisive and inherently designed to set different people against each other when we should see the unity that we have because of God and the Lord Jesus. this.

CRT gets human nature wrong. It gets the definition of sin wrong. And we could go into everything that I believe that is contrary to scripture. It has really its own eschatology. It has its own soteriology. I mean, all of it. It really is a religion and a worldview, as you said. I do want to get your response, which I'm sure you have already put out there.

You have already put out there. Your response to the guidepost report about sexual abuse within the SBC. over the past several decades. How should we be thinking of this as Southern Baptist, as people who hate sexual abuse, as people who believe, as you said, that everyone is made in the image of God and any kind of deceit or dishonesty or abuse

is something that grieves us? So how do we look at this honestly with repentant hearts and make a way forward from this? Well, what are your thoughts? Yeah, well, again, this is a very complex issue, but fundamentally, any situation, any occasion where somebody has been mistreated, sexually abused, that is reprehensible. We ought to hate it.

We ought to do whatever we can to keep that from happening when it's discovered. We need to deal with it the way God has called us to deal with it. So I want to say that from the outset. The Guidepost report has revealed hundreds of cases that they discovered, or they say they discovered, but they're most of them public. And most of them have already been adjudicated in the court system. so most of the people that they name in their list are serving time, or they've already been dealt with by the judicial system, which is right. However, they did uncover some things that

none of us knew about, and they showed some ways that perhaps these issues were not dealt with the way they should have been dealt with by Christians and want to honor God. And so the way forward for me, and for all Christians, I would hope, is that we must come back to what does the word say? God has instituted authority in this world. He's given the keys of the kingdom to the church so that we might deal with sin and righteousness in the church. Whenever there's unrepentant sin in the church, he's told us what to do. Churches are to carry out the Lord Jesus' admonitions in Matthew chapter 18, where he tells

us what to do with those who call themselves Christians, members of our churches, who refuse to repent. We are to do what Jesus says to do with them there, exercise the keys. The state is God's authority to deal with crimes. And Romans 13 very clearly tells us that the state is to punish wrongdoers. They are God's avenger. They carry out the wrath of God in meeting out justice in this fallen world. They don't do it perfectly.

The church doesn't do it perfectly. But both of us, church and state, have responsibilities. We have lanes. The church is to deal with sins and the state is to deal with crimes. and the church can't adjudicate crimes and the state can't adjudicate sins. And I think what's happened is sometimes in our Southern Baptist life together, as this report did make known, I think sometimes there were some Southern Baptist leaders who tried to adjudicate crimes when they should have called the state and say, we've got a crime here, you investigate it.

And that needs to be done. And so the way forward, and my hope is that Southern Baptist will recognize, how badly we have handled these things, not just in sexual abuse issues, but across the board, but we'll humble ourselves and say, oh, God, we call ourselves a people of the book, but in reality, we have neglected your book. We have not lived simply under the authority of Scripture, and we repent, and we ask you to have mercy on us, and we will start treating sin the way the Bible tells us to treat sin. We'll start treating crimes, the way the Bible tells us to deal with crimes, and we will care for people who've been sinned against and who have been abused.

And we will do that according to the grace that is in Jesus Christ, counseling, helping them to find the healing, the wholeness that is available in our crucified and risen Savior. We have a book. It's not complicated. It's just going to be really hard. And it's going to require repentance and faith. But I am very confident that by God's grace, we can go forward on that pathway. And practically, what does that look like in your data?

today, if you were president of the SBC, how exactly do you lead the convention in that direction? What are some action items that you have on your list that you would want to check off? Sure. Well, the presidency of the SBC is a voluntary responsibility. There's only a few specific tasks that are given to the president. So there's not widespread actions that a president of the SBC can take. Beyond that, though, it is a bully pulpit. it is a place from which you can speak and be heard as the president of the SBC.

So the kind of conversation you and I are having, I would want to have that amplified times over. I would want to speak as a pastor to the more than 47,000 pastors of our churches and say, brothers, we need to repent, we need to look at this together. Let's get honest before God and realize Hebrews 1317 tells us we're going to give an account before God on the day of judgment for how we shepherded this flock that he's entrusted to our care and leadership. and that would be, I think, as significant as anything. There will most likely be next week in Anaheim some proposals adopted by the messengers, and if so, those might include something that would instruct the president on things to do

in terms of appointing a new task force or appointing those that would guide us and bring recommendations next year for a specific proposals. So a lot of that, we don't know. We just have to wait and see. But without a doubt, I think if God would be pleased, to use me and others who believe this as well, to begin to sound this note that we need to repent. We need to come face to face with the reality that we wouldn't be living this way. These kinds of things would not be going on and treated so lightly if we genuinely feared God.

And we need to repent and come back to that. I don't believe we have one problem in the SBC that could not be solved by a genuine return to the fear of the living God. And if the Lord would do that, then we'll work. out the details on these specifics in that spirit. And tell us a little bit more just about the mechanics of how this works for people who are listening who go to SBC churches. Most of us, I mean, we know how it's set up.

It's not like the Catholic Church to where it is all uniform hierarchy. And so a lot of people who go to SBC churches, they don't know anything about the convention. They don't know anything about the SBC president. That's kind of how it's set up. But they're listening to this and they're realizing, okay, this is important for the direction of mind denomination. How did they figure out how this works? What's involved? Who the messengers from their churches?

How does that work? Yeah, well, I would say, first of all, talk to the leadership of your church, you know, taught to your pastor and say, hey, help me understand this. Are we sending messengers? One of the sad realities is that though we have 47,000 churches in the SBC on any given year for our two-day business meeting that's held each June, around the nation, it moves around the nation. We never have more than eight or nine thousand churches represented. Every Southern Baptist church is eligible to send two messengers, voting messengers, and you can send more up to 12, depending on how much money you have contributed to joint Southern Baptist causes. The churches own our seminaries. We have six of them. They own the institutions and

agencies like the North American Mission Board and the International Mission Board. And we elect trustees every year on a rotating basis to hold those institutions and agencies accountable to the churches. But another problem that we have that we've got to address in the SBC right now is that those trustees very often have not been doing their jobs. Sometimes the trustees come across like their unpaid public relations departments for the institutions and agencies so that when, as I've done recently, trying to address trustees, you get a response of kind of circle the wagons. The institution's fine. You need to be quite. it and go back to your place. And that's not the way it's supposed to be done. So one of my proposals

is we need to completely restructure how we train trustees so that they understand their fiduciary responsibilities and holding the entities in trust for the churches that bought them and paid for them. We have a website that we've established called We Have a Book.com. We have a book.com. And on that website, it will walk you through how you can become a messenger from your Southern Baptist Church. And I know it's late. I know Anaheim's far for most of us and it's expensive. but it matters. It matters. What happens to the SBC matters far beyond the SBC. It will impact our culture. It will impact the nations because we export our Christianity through missions. And it's only as we are healthy that we can have great hope of seeing the gospel run through healthy channels

around the world. So I would plead with all Southern Baptist churches and pastors, even if you've never been to a convention, go to we have a book.com and figure out how to sign up as a message. because it has to be a process followed. It's not complicated. It's pretty simple. And then bite the bullet and get out to Anaheim, California. And let's vote to change the direction of the SBC for the welfare of the work of the gospel throughout the world. Well, thank you, Pastor, so much. Thanks for taking the time to come on and explain all of that to us and explain your heart behind your candidacy. I'm excited to see what comes of this next week. I will be paying attention, and I know my listeners will too. Thank you so much. Thank you, Allie. Appreciate all that you do.

Thanks. God bless. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos.

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