Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 666 | Confronting the Occult, Demonic Symbolism & Witchcraft | Guests: Jeremiah Roberts & Andrew Soncrant (Cultish)

Episode Date: August 24, 2022

Today we’re joined by Jeremiah Roberts and Andrew Soncrant, hosts of the podcast "Cultish," to talk all things cults and the occult. We look into Gen Z’s obsession with manifesting, tarot cards and “WitchTok,” and what the Bible really says about the spiritual realm. Then, we explore whether we should really be paying attention to signs and symbols. We discuss demonic possession and oppression and what that really looks like, in contrast to movies and television – such as "Stranger Things" or "Doctor Strange" – that portray occult content. Check out the Cultish website and Instagram! --- Today's Sponsors: Carly Jean Los Angeles — use promo code 'ALLIEB' to save 20% off your first order at CarlyJeanLosAngeles.com! Annie's Kit Clubs — all subscriptions are month-to-month, & you can cancel anytime! Go to AnniesKitClubs.com/ALLIE & get your first month 75% off! Birch Gold — protect your future with gold. Text 'ALLIE' to 989898 for a free, zero obligation info kit on diversifying and protecting your savings with gold. Hunter Douglas — get your free Style Gets Smarter design guide at HunterDouglas.com/ALLIE today! --- Show Links: Vice: “Manifesting is Gen Z’s Answer to New Age Spirituality” https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjbn43/manifesting-is-gen-zs-answer-to-new-age-spirituality National Catholic Reporter: “Study: Gen Z doubles down on spirituality, combining tarot and traditional faith.” https://www.ncronline.org/news/study-gen-z-doubles-down-spirituality-combining-tarot-and-traditional-faith Pew Research Center: "‘New Age’ beliefs common among both religious and nonreligious Americans" https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/10/01/new-age-beliefs-common-among-both-religious-and-nonreligious-americans/ --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the whole armor of God that you may be able. to withstand in the evil day and having done all to stand firm. That's Ephesians 612 through 13.

Well, what are these cosmic powers? What does this present darkness look like? Who are the spiritual forces of evil? Is it obvious demonic possession? Is it in the signs and symbols covertly shown in shows on children's toys by celebrities and music videos? What about the seemingly innocent things? Yoga?

Anyagram, self-help, what role do the new age and modern-day witchcraft play here? And how focus should Christians be on this? Is it possible to be too careful, too paranoid? How does the goodness of God, the gospel of Christ, help us discern in a healthy way between good and evil, the things of God, and the things of Satan? Well, we will get into all of this today, episode 666 of Relatable, with the host of Coltish, Jeremiah Roberts and Andrew Sondkrant, their podcast explores the impacts of cults from a theological, sociological, and psychological perspective. If you haven't listened to their podcast, I highly recommend it. They've got a lot of insight into this realm today. You are going to love it.

As always, this episode is brought to by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com slash Alley for a discount. That's good ranchers.com slash alley. Jeremiah, Andrew, thank you so much for joining us. Jeremiah, if you could tell us a little bit about Coltish and why you guys started this podcast. Yeah, absolutely. And thank you so much for having us on. So Coltish started roughly about four years ago, and it came as a byproduct of the church that we attend. You've had Jeff Durbin on your show before. He is our pastor, and he also oversees the studio that we are a part of. We've had a long extended history of just doing outreach and ministerial and ministry to the world of the cults.

And so Jeff had the idea a couple of years ago about having a ministry section of our church that was strictly focused on outreach to the cults. And cultish came out as a byproduct of that. And it's been amazing. We've covered a lot of broad variety of topics, everything from different aspects of the new age, the occult that we're going to talk about today, everything from Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientology, Mormonism, just a broad variety of topics. So it's been a real, it's just been amazing so far, all the people we've been able to talk to.

Andrew, tell me a little bit about Coltish. What have you loved about it as it has developed as a podcast, as all podcasts do? Is there anything that you have learned in your time of studying and talking about Colts? Yeah. What I love most about Coltish is when we get those messages from people who tell us that they have come out of a cult or that Coltish, in some way, has helped them actually notice that they're in a cult and then they get out because as the late and great Dr. Walter Martin said, he says, I love you. You're in a cult. I want you out of it and with Christ. So that's the main purpose is for people to come out of these false assemblies and come into a relationship with the true

and living God who is Jesus Christ, the eternal God who took on flesh and died on the cross for our sins. So within all the research that I've done for cultish, what I find the most amazing is the fact that the Bible, right, is our sole infallible rule of faith and practice. We have it all in the Word of God. And when you look in research and go to Colts or many other false beliefs is that there's always some type of external standard that they have to rely on other than the Bible, but they always, these standards always fall short, right? Like the Bible has all the answers that we need in order to have peace with God through our relationship with Jesus Christ. So I think that's the most beautiful thing for me is actually through Coltish. I've even developed a more

personal relationship with the Lord throughout Coltish. So I think that's an amazing thing. And Andrew, is that the technical definition of a cult what you just described? Or there's some other aspects of it that people could kind of look at and recognize, oh, yeah, those are the telltale signs of a cult. Absolutely. So there's two different ways to look at it. We like to go through Dr. Walter Martin's definition of a cult, which is any group or person central leader who has a misinterpretation of Jesus Christ and the Bible. but there's also other ways to look at it in terms of we can go to secular people like Steve Hassan, or Hassan, however you want to pronounce his last name, but we can think of the bite model, behavior control, information control, thought control, and emotional control. So we can look at certain groups and situations to how information is being fed to them, whether it be through one central leader or organization that is controlling those aspects of their lives, which is typically manipulation for a person to not.

not think for themselves, but to actually replace their personal identity with the identity of their leader. Whereas with Christianity, biblical Christianity, we can actually know truly who ourselves are through the right relationship of Jesus Christ because it takes us from a fallen state in Adam to a relationship with God in which now that we can actually understand what it means to be human and to how to think biblically and to think critically about the world around us. Whereas cults don't allow you to think critically, you actually just have to, you know, obey without question. And Jeremiah, what is the difference between a cult and a cult? OCC ULT? Right. So Walter Martin, we mentioned he was the original Bible answer man. He was somebody that really laid a pioneer.

He really pioneered Christian apologetics in regards to the cults and the occult. So two of his books I'd recommend. One is Kingdom of the Colts. And there's another book, Kingdom of the occult. And so again, Andrew's definition is the one. that we had arrived to, usually you would have a charismatic figure or an organization centralized around a misinterpretation of the Bible and ultimately a misinterpretation of who Jesus Christ is. But as far as the occult goes, that really comes from the Latin definition, occultists, which really just means secret, hidden things. And so when you look at the world of the occult, what you're looking at is really ancient,

the mythology of the ancient world. And so a lot of times when it's repackaged, that's the, the definition for the new age. But usually it's different spiritual practices, whether it's transcendental meditation, practicing with tarot cards, yoga, playing with Ouija boards. It's a lot of broad variety of spiritual practice.

But the purpose of the yaw cult is to be able to access or tap into spiritual dimensions to be able to attain secret, esoteric, hidden knowledge. And there's a, the god is very explicit about saying, do not answer into those dimensions, because it's spiritually dangerous, one for yourself, but you don't have control over what comes out from the other side. And if we've been able to interview extensive people

who have people with extensive backgrounds in the new ways, people like to reen virtue, we've had other people who are involved in Burning Man and a lot of other strange spiritual practices, and they've been able to share their experiences that really affirm what Scripture says about the heavenly places, because the Bible is a dimensional book, both physical and spiritual.

Yeah, Andrew, do you have anything to add to that? Oh, no, yeah, absolutely. I'd have to just second with Jeremiah here is that we have magic divination, sorcery, condemned in the Bible in Deuteronomy chapter 18. It says there shall not be found among you, anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practice divination or tells fortunes or interprets or a sorcerer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead. Whoever does these things as an abomination to the Lord.

see how God actually puts this on the same level as child's sacrifice, which is extremely interesting. But we can also think of sorcery, divination, magic, the occult in a way to manipulate or get a one-upance in the world through supernatural means, typically through objects and tools like incantations, spells, rites, rituals, etc. Just to add on to that a little bit. So there's this interesting article from Vice, and it's not brand new, but it's still recent. and it's title, manifesting is Gen Z's answer to new age spirituality.

And apparently this is a trend on TikTok. And so there are a lot of videos about conjuring up someone from your past or making money, you know, manifesting a certain type of success, manifesting in the shower because water is a powerful medium to help you shift your timeline. And they mostly focus on having everything. And then there was another report very similar from the National Catholic Reporter saying that they are, or Gen Z is really embracing things like tarot cards in exchange for traditional faith. And, you know, I think a lot of people see that and they're like, oh yeah, that's witchcraft, that's bad. But it really reminds me also of a lot of what is in kind of self-help for women, kind of manifesting the life that you want and like thinking and believing something to be true so that it comes.

comes true in your life, whether it's a relationship, losing weight, health, wealth, those kinds of things. And so it seems like this is a little bit more ubiquitous than maybe what we've traditionally thought of when we think about the occult, like just crazy kind of witches and their, you know, in their little, what is it, a coven, you know, casting spells on people. It's kind of like within pop culture now. It's all over TikTok. I mean, Jeremiah, what do you think about that?

Yeah, so first of all, when you just think about the world of TikTok, so one of the trending hashtags on TikTok is witch talk. And the amount of views, individual pieces of content, just under the hashtag witch talk, is just a little over 30 billion. That's how much content, just in that one hashtag alone. So what I want to just do real quickly is that a lot of times when we're looking at something like the occult, the new age, it's very easy to sensationalize it. We're usually viewing that through the lens of a television show like Stranger Things or you're looking at these articles or these extreme examples. And we tend to look at all these issues separately when they're really symptoms of something a lot larger. So I believe that right now, given where we are, and I think it's related to a lot of what you talk about on your show, Allie, is that we are kind of, we are currently transitioning, sort of going through a spiritual great reset of sorts, going from a Judeo-Christian, society to a neo-paganism, a neo-pagan postmodern society.

And when the Apostle Paul, he was dealing with a very similar environment when he was going out, talking to all and administering to all of the different pagan worlds and of his time and pagan worldviews. And he gives something that's very specific. He talks about the contrast of two worldviews. There's oneism and then there's twoism. And so oneism is a worldview that says that all is one. all is self. There's no distinction between creator and creation. Then you, versus the biblical

worldview, which is tuism where there's a distinction between the creator and the creation. And so in Romans chapter one, Paul is giving his whole thesis on paganism in the ancient world. And one of the things that he talks about is that once this happens, there's a whole process. People exchange the truth of God for a lie. And then they end up worshiping the creator. I'm sorry, they end up worshiping the creation rather than the creator. And then as an immediate byproduct of that, God gives them over to a debased mind. And then you see an immediate distortion of God's created order of the masculine and feminine. And so what you're really looking at is just a just a conflict of worldviews between oneism, twoism,

as we look into all of that. So I think that's very, very important to unravel because that actually ties right in with the context. the conversation too, just about feminism, the cultural zeit guys, and what the appeal is of the new ways, because we're caught, we're in the middle of that right now. Andrew, did you, did you have anything you wanted to add to that? Yeah, I think the most important thing to understand is that there's nothing new under the sun, right? When we think of self-help, self-care, or even time to understand yourself, or this type of manifestation that goes on. I mean, I came out of corporate America and full-time ministry right now. I mean, it's even in our

corporations. There's been this idea that you can separate these things from worldview. I think it's a very atheistic form of thinking, thinking that there is no God in general, but you can do these practices without understanding the worldview that's behind them. Of course, we have people who come into these practices coming from, maybe coming from abused situations in churches or people who have atheistic parents now searching for spirituality. But what's really important to understand is there is actually a worldview behind this whole self-help manifestation culture. And it's nothing new under the sun. It goes back to even ancient Egyptian religion, Babylonian religion.

It's hermetic philosophy in general. But most people who practice these things don't actually understand the history behind it. Hey, this is Steve Deist. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is. true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality.

We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this Steve Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Andrew, I got a lot of questions from people when I asked, what questions do you have about the occult and even demonic activity?

And one question that I got over and over again was how much stock should we give to symbols and to signs that seem to be secretly portrayed in music videos or by certain celebrities or politicians? I mean, I know this, I think this typically happens more on the wrong. right than the left. I mean, I know people whose whole Instagram accounts are dedicated to kind of seeking out these different symbols, whether it's the seen eye or whether it's an owl. I mean, things I've never heard of before, or they'll claim that certain color combinations are demonic and kind of signal like worship of Satan. So like how concerned should people be about these certain signs, whether it's on their children's toys or like the people they follow. Is there any

credibility to that whatsoever? Is there any truth to it? Right, right. So this is the way I would like to think about it. First, first, I would like to say if you're a Christian, regardless if you're Christian or not, Jesus Christ is king of kings and Lord of Lord. So your first actual thought should be on Jesus and who he is. So Colossians chapter 2 says this and I'm going to read this chapter 2 versus 8 through 15. It says, see to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty to seat according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, not according to Christ. For in him, the fullness of deed dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is ahead of all rule and authority in him. Also, you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands,

continuing on, it states, and you who were dead in your trespasses in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all of our trespasses. by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands, this he set aside namely to the cross. And here's the clincher. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame by triumping over them in him. So first, you need to set your relationship on Christ, not focus too much on signs and symbols. Christ has already conquered over them. If these things take you away from your relationship with Christ, you are falling prey to the elemental spirits of the world. None of these things can stop Christ in his kingdom from continuing to grow.

But there are things that people dwell on specifically when looking at signs and symbols. I would say don't focus too much on those things, but look at the worldview that's being propagated from these sources. If the music that your children is listening to is leading them to debauchery, there's a reason why, right? Take them away from it. I try not to find meaning in signs and symbols through the things around me, but instead focus on Christ and what God's word says, how we can separate the bad.

from the good with regards to morality being, you know, an objective standard that we have through the Word of God, really. Right, right. And Jeremiah, do you have anything to add to that about signs and symbols? Yeah. I mean, I think when you look at the world of the occult, I mean, you have all the different size. You have the all seeing eye.

You have people that are covering one eye to doing some sort of Illuminati sign. And I think there is a lot of shortcomings when it comes to trying to use a sermon when it's pin the, pin the masonic sign or pin the symbol on somebody and to say, oh, this is, like, they're, they're believing this or teaching this, because what you're actually doing is those symbols come from a worldview where it's all looking into secret, esoteric, hidden knowledge. And so I think there is a danger when you try and mirror that exact worldview of esoteric, secretive knowledge. because when you look at the Christian worldview, it's an open ministry. That was the contrast between Christianity and even all the Gnostic religions of the earlier days. People were always trying to say, no, I have the secret hidden knowledge that you need to look to me to. Where in contrast, you just said, everything I've done openly, I've always taught openly in public in the synagogues.

In synagogues, I've done nothing in secret. And that's what every single cult does. That's what the realm of the occult does. they always revel in secret, hidden, private, esoteric revelation. So when you actually are looking at the world around you, for example, I just had, there's a friend of my Miss Titus, she's a YouTube influencer, she did a video critiquing Beyonce's church girl. Now, there are people who would talk about Jay-Z and Beyonce, and their affiliations

when they're doing the Illuminati and talking about those affiliations. But at the end of the day, the best way to critique people like that is to compare what they are contrasting with scripture. So my friend Miss Tides, what she did is she took Beyonce's lyrics line by line and critiqued it against scripture. And I think that's ultimately the lens in which we should view everything, the world and medium of how we talk to each other, how we relate to each other, how we love our neighbor. But even how we deal with the spiritual realm, the lens that we have, because we can't see

the unseen realm with our naked eye, the realm, the lens that we have as Christians is the of Scripture. And that's the measuring point to judge all things in all worldviews, whether it's the cult, whether it's the occult, or even any of the entertainment shows that you see as well to do, things like Stranger Things, Dr. Strange. You need to be able to understand what are they depicting in that worldview and how do we measure that by Scripture. Yeah, that's a really good point. And y'all are kind of making me realize that even though I think a lot of the people who are trying to look for those hidden messages and music videos and different brands and things, they probably mean well and maybe they feel like they are trying to help people be discerning. But

as both of you pointed out, the really obvious contradictions between God's Word and what a lot of these celebrities and brands and musicians are doing are already there. They're already observable. And they're also more important. So I think that symbol seeking can be a distraction also from actually just discerning between what the world is doing and what God's Word says, which is both. of you are saying that is far more important. People can kind of get themselves all wound up looking for different, you know, possibly demonic color combinations and, you know, the different influencers that they follow and miss that they need to be discerning between what is harmful or what is sinful and what is actually glorifying to God, which is the much more important mission.

Yeah. Now, if you have anything to add to that, feel free, Andrew or Jeremiah, but I was going to also transition to demonic oppression, but go ahead. Yeah, but I was just going to also add to that one of the most important things to consider when you're looking at the world of the occult, and especially when it comes to people who try and practice, quote-unquote, discernment, but using symbolism because it's very subjective, it's very arbitrary when, in fact, as Christians' biblical law and God's standards of accusations, that you have to have two to three independent lines of testimony and witness, in order to formulate an accusation.

And so there are a lot of times where people have made accusations against our podcast just saying that somehow we're secretly freemasons just because of, you know, there's one angle where I turn my head left and there's a slight shadow that went over my eye. And so therefore that's how people, that somehow were Illuminati. And there are people who live in that world. But I think it's also something just to understand that people who do come out of the new

age, they tend to have that mindset just because when you're in the new age, you have this level of confidence that you know so much that you are in the know. And all of a sudden, when someone who's heavily into the new age, whatever it is, when they come to Christ, they come to this realization that know what I was into, and there's things that I saw that I should not have seen, this was all satanic deception. And so I think what happens is. as a byproduct, they tend to swing over to the other, do a heavy pendulum swing where it's, it's almost a level of reverse pantheism where they think the devil is in everything.

And this is not, this is not to mock or to write them. This is just, it's just in my experience. I want to be able to help these people and help disciple these people. And we want, and that's part of our minister, too, is that we want to be able to help resources for so people,

you come out of the new age or any cult, you want to also help them, get solid planting as well, too. But you need to be very, very careful with how when you look at the different, whether it's a Masonic symbol, a pentagram, there's a lot of those things do have meaning, but they have their place. And you have to be careful not to leave the cart before the horse. Yeah.

And some of them are obvious. I think, like, Converse was one who did, like, a very obviously satanic symbol. And that was clearly, like, their motivation behind it. they weren't hiding it. But I think I or a conference I was a part of was accused of something like that that you were talking about, you know, you were accused of being the Illuminati because of a shadow because we were, a lot of us wore pink and black because we kind of all decided it was a women's conference and we thought that that was, and you know, some people thought that that's

satanic when really it's just like, oh, that color combination is cute. There's nothing beyond that. So it can also distract you from, again, who is in Christ and who is not. a tree is known by its fruit, not these kind of secret symbols. Super interesting. I think that's really important for people to know. I think conservatives especially can kind of get caught up in that because we are so naturally mistrusting of the powers that be probably for a good reason.

But we should be using discernment and trying to figure out what is actual fruit and what is not. Now, Andrew, I do want to talk about, we're talking about this kind of already, but specifically demonic possession or demonic oppression. I got a lot of questions about what does that actually look like? Some people asked, okay, depression and anxiety, is that demonic oppression? Is sickness demonic oppression? Psychotic episodes?

Are people actually possessed by demons today? Is all of what we're talking about? Witchcraft is that demonic possession? So what exactly is it? What should the Christian know about it? What should we be looking for? Yeah, wow. Those are a lot of really good questions.

Yeah, they're big questions and they're great questions. say with sickness or in health, I mean, the Bible says it can be two. One of, it could be, you know, multiple things. Jesus was healing people, healing people and people were like, hey, was it because their parents sinned and things of that nature? And Jesus said, no, it's just so the works of God may be manifested in me today. So we know that sickness can also be demonic as well. I mean, we live in a world that, that sin is a real thing.

It can affect us spiritually and physically and demonic possession, oppression. What does it even look like today? I mean, we know when we all heard about the Rovers Wade reversal, there was many people with massive outcries and that are, let's say, there are four murder of babies in the womb. And it looks very much so like demonic possession or maybe oppression happening where it's being manifest through people's actions. But what I find most interesting about the Bibles that actually talks about how wicked we are, right? A lot of the times we like to take the focus off of ourselves and say, oh, it must be demonic. or this person might be influenced. But it says in Romans that we're inventors of evil, right?

No one seeks God. No one understands God. Our throats are an open grave. The venom of asps is under our lips. So I think the main focus that we should have in this situation is actually looking at ourselves. I think the human tendency, right, is that of Satan. In the garden, we fell because what we say, we said, we don't want to listen to the

words of God and said we want to do what we want to do, try to essentially dethrone God the very same thing Satan did. So humans have the tendency as well to be extremely, evil. I don't think demonic oppression and possession looks the same as it did in Jesus's time. I think there was a very specific reason for it and why Jesus showed up at the time that he did and why demonic possession was so rampant then. I think Jesus actually changed that in his death, burial and resurrection. I believe that Satan is bound today because the strong man is bound while the kingdom of God plunders through was once the kingdom of Satan. So it's an interesting

dynamic to think about, but I think we lose focus when we look too much at things looking for the demonic. I think we need to look at ourselves first in our relationship with God in order to truly love neighbor. We need to be focused and captivated on Christ in order to actually live as Christians should live. Does that make sense a little bit? Yeah, it does. Jeremiah, do you have anything to add to that? Well, yeah, I think it's also very important when you look at the world of the demonic realm, especially when it comes to demonic possession versus oppression, is that first of all, we tend to view that through the lens of Hollywood. I mean, there's usually several movies that come out a year that have to do something,

some sort of horror movie about someone being demonically possessed. And it happens all the time. It goes all the way back to the film The Exorcist. And so a lot of times there, what you actual exorcisms and how they take place or start contrast to what happens in real life. So, for example, there was somebody that we had actually on the podcast. It's one of our episodes we did about a year and a half ago called the Exorcism of Christendbellamy. And so we had a pastor that was on, along with this lady that was attending his congregation, this lady came from the very background of witches.

Her genealogy traced all the way back to the Salem witch trial, to Salem, Massachusetts. And so, but when this deliverance happened, the pastor wasn't even laid. looking for it. He really preached the gospel to her. They went to baptize her in this river in West Virginia, and there were some very strange things that happened. When you actually look at the video that took place of when this happened, it does not look at all. I mean, it looks like she's being baptized. It looks like she kind of stumbles a little bit as she's going into the water. However, we know that there's a spiritual realm, but there's also a physical realm, I mean, there's a physical realm, but there's also spiritual truth being told behind that.

And so you have three multiple independent lines of testimony coming together independently to say there was something weird going on that happened there. And at the end of the day, we know that scripture talks about Christ who rescues those from the domain of darkness and transfers them into the kingdom of his beloved son. And so that's ultimately what you see there. And I think also there's also a danger as well, too, to be able to say there's a demon behind everything, where there's the demon, there's the demon of gluttony, there's the demon of lust, there's a demon of this, the demon of that. When the reality is, is that that's your own sin. That's your responsibility.

There's a danger as well, too, in the fact that the devil made me do it. And also I think there's a danger as well too in people who do at quote unquote exorcism ministries for a living because I think that is dangerous as well too because the most, I mean, our past, Pastor Jeff, he did a deliverance once as well too. And he wasn't looking to do it. He felt led to pray for this lady. And there's some unique supernatural events that happened. I think there's a there's a, it's always important as we look at anything to view it through the lens of scripture as well too. Yeah, definitely. Now, Jeremiah, you mentioned something earlier. You mentioned a couple things that we kind of went past that I'm sure people who are listening are like, wait, what? One was yoga. The other one was stranger things. And we've talked with Doreen Virtue as well.

And so we've talked about yoga. You know, she actually changed my mind about yoga because I was of the belief, okay, how can it be all that different from Pilates or from stretching? I'm not thinking of anything spiritual about it. And so, Jeremiah, what did you mean when you mentioned that yoga kind of was part of this occult world of trying to access another spiritual realm? Yeah. Well, it's interesting you ask that because whenever we make a post about it, it gets fiery. There's a fiery comment section right away. It comes a little bit of a free-for-all in the comment section.

I think the question to ask when you look at the conversation regarding yoga is not to get super paranoid to sensational. it, but just to ask a simple question, what is yoga? Is it just a stretching practice that just so happens to have some ancient spiritual components that you can separate yourself from? Or is it fundamentally a spiritual practice that just so happens to have physical elements as a byproduct? In the same way, you would ask, is there, are there physical components, are there things that happen to your body physiologically if you're a Muslim and you bow towards Mecca

when you're in that position? Probably yes. And so when you look at yoga as a whole, we would argue that it is inherently a spiritual practice that just so happens to have physical components with it. The word yoga really means yoke, and it's really yielding yourself really to different ancient Hindu deities. In fact, a lot of Christians over in India

look at Americans in the West who are trying to make these justifications. and they're honestly asking, what are you doing? What are you doing? Because they know what it is. And I know for me that when I started doing my own research and just started asking, started really being honest with myself, I remember just seeing videos of people who are in the new age doing yoga. I knew what they were doing.

And I came to a point of conviction saying, I can't do this anymore. So I would just say for anyone who is trying to justify using yoga, maybe you're not liking that we're having this conversation. I would just say, really do your own research. We have a series called Exploring the Spiritual Dangers of Yoga, look into it, and just ask yourself, can I fundamentally do this and be consistent with what we're called to be as a Christian when it says presents your biases, a living sacrifice?

And just ask yourself the question. We want people to come to their own conclusions, but at the same time do their own research, and we do have a lot of resources where people can find out about that. And Andrew, I'm wondering if you can kind of respond to this because when I kind of would defend it, although I've never been someone who has really done yoga, I just didn't see the harm. I guess because of what Jeremiah just described, I thought that it's, you know, mostly a physical practice with physical benefits and the spiritual is just kind of a component of it, but you can do away with that if you don't want to. I've even seen some people say, well, we'll replace the kind of Hindu spiritualism of it with Christian spiritualism. and then we've redeemed the practice of yoga. And a lot of people use 1 Corinthians 8-4 through 13 about meat sacrifice to idols.

So therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that an idol has no real existence and that there is no God but one. For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all, things and through whom we exist. And so, you know, it goes on to talk about not tempting your weaker brother, but really it's fine if your conscience doesn't convict you eating meat sacrifice to idols. So some people kind of use this passage to try to defend yoga and say, okay, but we know that

the Hindu gods are not real. We know that we're not really worshipping them. We know that there is one God. Why can't I practice the physical, you know, why can't I reap the physical benefits of yoga and still worship the one God? What would you? your response be to that? Yeah, I'd say we as Christians have the tendency to fall prey to the same syncretism as Israel, right? Like, it's just something that's, we want to inately so hard to justify within ourselves. With Corinthians, I'd say specifically yoga is not a meat, right? This isn't a food. This isn't a sustenance. This is the idol itself. These are the poses of the idol. This is a spiritual practice with spiritual ramifications. You can't just take something and syncretize it into your

Christian beliefs, right? If you're going to do that, you must ask yourself the same with other things that are practiced by people of Eastern religions, right? So we have to be consistent as Christians and apply that same standard to other things. Like, do you think it's okay then as well to synchronize the anagram, right? That has ancient occultic origins. Does is it's it's it's the same question how consistent are you going to be in that standard then is it then okay okay to reclaim child sacrifice in the name of yahway right is it just purely a physical thing without any spiritual ramifications uh we we have to be consistent as Christians and yoga in itself is innately spiritual as a practice there are other things that can be done

instead of these poses that represent uh deities of the Hindu uh, religion. Jeremiah, I do want to get, you mentioned stranger things. Now, I don't, I don't know what you guys have talked about in regard to stranger things. I have my husband and I watch Stranger Things. You know, we were, we were fans of it. This last season was a lot darker and scarier than the other seasons. So, I mean, tell me about it.

Why did you bring it up earlier? Yeah, well, it's interesting. I also, I'm also a fan of the show. And I really enjoyed season four. And I think there are people who even watch our show who might be surprised and ask us, why are you watching a show like that? Well, again, it's up to people's convictions, what they do and don't want to watch. I mean, that's a matter of individual conscience.

In this case, I think that there's no. Of course. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think that when you look at good storytelling, when you look at storytelling, good storytelling also mirrors other good storytelling. And I think at the end of the day, it's important to really understand the worldview that's becoming behind a show like Stranger Things. So when you even look at Stranger Things 4, you look at one of the primary characters, Eddie Munson.

And he's part of the Hellfire Club. And this is a group that's playing Dungeons and Dragons. And all of a sudden, when there's this murder that takes place, spoiler, if anyone hasn't seen the show, all of a sudden there starts being these accusations that Eddie Munson was the person that committed this. murder. Well, that idea didn't come out of a vacuum. What they're referring, because the show's obviously based in the 80s, is the satanic panic. And at that time, there were real legitimate cases where there was satanic ritual abuse. I've had conversations in private of people who have experienced that sort of horrific abuse and the trauma that comes with that. But there's also

examples where people sensationalize things. And as that, false accusations come about. And that's big part of what happened in the 1980s. There was a book that came out, for example, in the 80s called Michelle Remembers that was talking about this case of satanic ritual abuse, that book created a firestorm. You had people that were women who were going into therapy, who were trying to uncover what was wrong with them, and all these people were uncovering memories of horrific things that happened to them. Many of times you had people who were thrown into jail and thrown into prison.

wrongfully because of the fact that there's one person's witness against another. So they're talking about like a real, real issue. And also in the same way, in the worldview of stranger things, I mean, you're looking at the upside down world where you're, where there's these other entities, dimensions, and powers. And so I think that's a catalyst for me to be able to have the conversations with people about the true reality, ultimately of what the Bible talks about. because we might look at someone that like a character 11 or somebody who's been in the

upside down world and they're trying to explain to people in the real world what happened and about this upside down world and people look at them like they're crazy i think there is a good parallel when we've had conversations with people who are in that who were in the new age and have come out of it we know they've been in the upside this upside down world they've been in places they're not supposed to be so when they're talking about being abducted at 3 a.m. in the morning and being tortured by little green men, and they don't know what's happening in them. They're terrified or their astral bodies going out of their physical body, and all of a sudden they call out, and they're being demonically

oppressed and they have these entities attached to them, and they call out to the name of Jesus, and all of a sudden that stops, and that leads them to grab a Bible, and all of a sudden realize that Jesus is of who Jesus is, that's a reality. And a couple of years ago, I would have heard someone telling me that. And I would have thought that they were crazy. Maybe this is all in their head. Maybe they just need to just calm down a little bit. But when you actually understand about what scripture talks about the unseen realm and the dangers that come behind it, there's a reality that's being told to that. And I think Stranger Things actually does a really good job of depicting a lot of those true realities. And there's a lot that there's a lot of ways you can

have conversations with your fellow person, your friend or whoever, the way that we are having a conversation about it now. Andrew, what are your thoughts? What are your thoughts? Because you watch the show, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What I think essentially is that we have a zeitgeist, right? A spirit of the age, essentially now with this new neo-paganism and spirituality that is being brought to the Americas. I think what it is is really a rebounding of the most prolific, like Thomas Payne atheistic thought, right? We have society of people that have been told for so long that God doesn't exist. There's only the material world around us. And now there's this reembracing of, paganism because the offspring of these people who are taught that there is no God now are searching

for truths somewhere else, right? But the beautiful thing I find within this is actually showing a longing in the human heart to understand something that is outside the material, but Christianity is the only thing with a reasonable answer for it, right? These people who are going to neo-paganism and Stranger Things shows that this is something popular in our society. This is what the Bible says about people that do this. And Isaiah 47, 8 through 15, it says, now therefore hear this, you lovers of pleasure who sit securely, who say in your heart, I am, and there is no one beside me. So this is Isaiah's condemnation on Babylon, which is going on or God's condemnation. But there's two key things happening here is that the people that are going after other gods, they're usually lovers

of self and they sit and they say, I am, right? Well, who is God? God is I am that I am. He is the eternal one, but these people want to do that and take that for themselves. So that's one thing that we must understand. So the zeitgeist of the age is showing that there is a longing, but they're looking at themselves to be gods, to give themselves a peace with God that they know part of them is broken. And it's not obtainable through their worldview. Christianity is the only reasonable answer to what is going on in the world today. So what I see when I'm looking at our society with this neo-paganism is actually a beautiful chance for the light of the gospel, the penetrates, the penetrate that much stronger in the world. I pray that there's a revival in a sense or a reformation

in a sense, because if we look back in time, especially in America's history, we have the first great awakening. And then after the first great awakening with Jonathan Edwards, we have the influence of Thomas Payne and atheism. And on top of that, a renaissance thought with alchemy and spiritualism that influenced the Americas where farmers were doing the farmer's almanac and things of that nature to try to find ancient, uh, hitting gold, uh, within their, within their land. But then what we're, what we're seeing is there's, there's a rebirth essentially of this magical worldview that is being influenced in our world today. Christianity is the only way to have an answer for that. Yeah. Yeah. One,

just one last thing too, when it comes to the world of entertainment is just, it's important to understand that whatever you're watching, that these ideas don't come out of a vacuum. So just real quickly as well, on top of Stranger Things, Marvel's character, Dr. Strange, the most recent movie that came out, I think it was the multiverse of madness. That whole movie is just a carnival of occultism. You see one of the powers that he ends up accessing later on the film, you see there's an eye that opens up right above his forehead. Now, that doesn't happen in real life, but that's symbolic of what happens in the new age where you believe that you can open up your third eye by, doing certain things to activate your pineal gland, and that accesses dimensions that are spiritually dangerous.

We have plenty of conversations about that. What you also see depicted in the film, you have really rituals that are done in a temple up on a mountain. That idea is not just, oh, that's a really cool set that'll look really cool. They're depicting a real spiritual reality of that in the ancient world and in ancient paganism, The temples in which the priest would always get esoteric revelation from, there are always these temples up in the high places. And that was really, really in every ancient pagan nation that you would really see that would happen many a time. So what is being depicted as well in Dr. Strange, everything from the rituals to having, you know, having candles in this circle and doing this ritualistic magic.

It's important to understand the worldview being depicted behind it and how to engage it scripturally. but I think there is a real danger into going into a movie like that and thinking that everything being depicted in a film like Dr. Strange is just fantasy because they are depicting things that are real and we have to be able to give answers to. Well, there's so much more I want to talk about, and we'll have to do a part two to talk about the many other things that I have in my outline that we didn't have time to address. But just to close us out, I do want to read some numbers from a Pew Research study from

2018 and then just get both of your encouragement to Christians who are navigating this world of the new age of the occult because as we've talked about many times, it really is ubiquitous and it's often camouflaged in Christian-like language and in language that seems neutral, especially when it comes to the world of self-help for women and crystals and yoga and different parts of entertainment. And this is disturbing because Pew Research says that New Age beliefs are common among both religious and non-religious Americans. So about 60% of American adults, P. Research says, except at least one of these new age beliefs,

reincarnation, astrology, psychics, spiritual energy and physical objects. I'm guessing that's like crystals. 47% of evangelicals, which that is disturbing, but that's actually the lowest percentage, if you're looking at the particular categories that they break this down into. 70% of Catholics, that is not surprised me, 70% of Protestants in the historically black tradition,

56% of agnostics, 80% of people whose religion is nothing in particular. Adults under the age of 65, those who have not graduated from college, racial and ethnic minorities, and Democrats are more likely to hold at least one new age belief. So we're really swimming in this stuff. Even as Christians, even in the church, almost half of evangelicals. delicals believe in one of these things. I mean, I had someone who was a part of my book club, and it's a Christian women's book club, and she said that she can absolutely be a witch and be a Christian at the same time. She believes that God has gifted her, these tarot cards,

and, you know, ability as a medium and, you know, rejects even the Old Testament warnings against that. So all of what we're talking about, it really is ubiquitous in so many ways. Give Christians who want to arm themselves against this without being the paranoid people that are constantly looking for signs, like what should their attitude be? What should their focus be? Andrew, we can start with you. And then Jeremiah, if you'll close us out. Sure. Yeah. I'd say Christianity in a nutshell in order to think about these things biblically, number one, it's not about self-help, right? It's about dying to yourself. Jesus says, pick up your cross and follow me. So the first thing we must understand as humans is we must be humble. We must first and foremost submit to

God's word. And I think if you submit to God's word as the sole rule of faith and practice in your life, there's no way that you will fall prey to these practices because they are thoroughly condemned in the Old Testament. Even if you, when you try to reject the Old Testament, for example, you're not using the Bible as your sole rule of faith in practice. So what we need to do is we need to put God and His word first before ourselves. We need to die to ourselves. In order to actually even truly understand ourselves, we must be regenerated. God must put his spirit within us. And it says when he does that he'll cause us to observe his statutes, what are his statutes, the law of God, that we're not perfect in every single way. What we would be is convicted when we do things that are contrary to

his law. Leviticus 17, Deuteronomy 18, condemn witchcraft, sorcery, divination, things of that nature. But what we need to do first and foremost as well as Christians is we want to follow Christ. We need to understand who he is and what he has done for us. We need to be thankful for our salvation. When we're not thankful for our salvation, remembering what God has brought us from spiritually dead into life, that we will look for that peace and that care in other things. We'll fall prey to the elements of the world

and not according to Christ. So be content with who you are in the situation that you're at. Look to be more sanctified, conform to the image of Christ, and not to the elemental spirits. of the world with empty philosophy and deceit. Christ is he's conquered it all. He's a Lord not only of the nations, but he's Lord of your hearts. And you must remember that as Christians be humbled, die to yourself, pick up the cross, follow Christ, and submit to his word. Jeremiah, now I don't know, not everyone can see this because I wasn't on camera at the time,

but interestingly enough, we just had our lights go out for a second in the middle of you sharing the gospel, but we were able to keep rolling. So thank God for that and just pray that we continue. So Jeremiah, if you could share your final thoughts. Yeah, I think when you're looking at the world the new wage is to understand, I think also like how did this come about? You know, I think when you're looking at, for example, the deconstruction of movement that's happening right now, all the ex- evangelicals, you've had episodes where you've talked about that yourself. There's people I'm 41 years old. There's people I know who I've done Bible. studies with, who I've done ministry with, who have now gone to the wayside. And I think also

there are a lot of people in that world, even in the evangelical world, have dealt into the new age, really as a byproduct of just evangelicalism as a whole, where Walter Martin said the cults are the unpaid bills of the church, where we didn't really confront these groups when they were up and coming. And now groups like Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, all these different groups have started. And because of that, now they have these giant organizations with millions and millions of members. I think in the same way that the occult and the explosion of the occult is also an unpaid bill of the Christian church. Just because we've had all these very watered down, wishy-washy gospel, when you're looking at discipleship a lot, there's not really discipleship with kids growing up.

There's not really a centralized. the father isn't spiritually leading in the home. And so there's a spiritual vacuum that people are longing for true spiritual answers, and they're not giving it with the evangelical wishy-washy gospel. So what you need to understand is it's very easy to look at everything that we've talked about in the new wage, whether it's the occult, whether it's seances, whether it's witchcraft, all those things. It's very easy to get fearful and even get angry at those. very people on witch talk. But it's important to understand that in Ephesian 6, it says that our

battles not against flesh and blood, but against the forces of darkness, against the principalities and powers that be. In fact, it also says that the God of this age has blinded those. I'm seeing the light of the glory of the gospel of Christ. So we need to understand that these people, they are looking, they have a Jesus-shaped whole, and they're trying to find really wholeness and fulfillment in which they can only find in Christ. And that's why the late Dr. Walton, I would recommend you get a copy, especially of this book, Kingdom of the Occult. It's a very, I mean, it's a thick book.

And it goes to show that there has to be better, you have to give good answers that are bigger than Jesus tells me this I know for the Bible tells me so. But the late Dr. Walts Martin, he had a point, he was closing out in one of his lectures. I remember there's just always, it's always hit me when I heard him say this. He said, help us to have compassion and the love of Christ. Christ for these people that are seeking help, but not from thee, but from the forces of evil. And I think at the end of the day, that's what's really happened. A lot of these people who are witches, mediums, astrologers, warlocks, who are doing all

these things that come from a very broken background. They've experienced a lot of trauma in their life, and they're desperately trying to find emotional healing, fulfillment in all of these esoteric practices, but it's a lot of, in reality, what they think they're finding fulfillment, at least on the surface level, but there's this, there's a satanic deception behind it. So I think we need to not fear it, but we need to have Christ as the authority, because the Bible says, greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. And we need to be able to confront these worldviews, but you don't, you want to make sure

when you're talking with your friend who's in the new age, you're not trying to win an argument. The goal is not to be right. This is a real spiritual discussion. And this is a real spiritual battle that's happening back and forth. So you need to make sure that when you're giving apologetic answers, it's not just about refuting them, answering them, but really having prayer being part of it as well, too. So I think there's a very, that's maybe an example of a good holistic approach. So, yeah, I really appreciate you having us on. And we'd love to talk.

There's a lot further. I'm sure we could explore. But, yeah, we really appreciate the time to be able to talk with you today. Well, thank you so much. And I know it can just kind of be frightening and feel heavy when Christians are thinking about this stuff and looking at this. Looking at lost things and lost people often does make us sad. But thank you guys for bringing it always back to the gospel and reminding us that we as Christians already have victory in Christ. And so I just want to read this from the end of Romans 8 just to remind people of whose we are and who we are. And I wish I could read this whole past. but starting at verse 35, who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written for your sake, we are being killed all the day long. We are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered. No, in all these things, we are more than conquers through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels,

nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord. That Ephesians 6 passage says that our battle is against the cosmic powers, the powers over this present darkness. Well, not even those powers can separate us from the love and the strength and the power of Christ. And that is where our hope and our peace lies.

So thank you guys so much for representing that so well. I really appreciate it. encourage everyone to check out the Coltish podcast to follow you guys. Thanks so much for taking the time to come on. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie,

you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

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