Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 669 | My Thoughts on Matt Chandler & Baptist Theology

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

Starting point is 00:00:19 We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. What in the world is going on in the church, specifically the Baptist church, popular Southern Baptist pastor, Matt Chandler, announced over the weekend that he is temporarily stepping down from his role as the lead pastor of his church because of an inappropriate online relationship. Also, the DOJ is investigating the Southern Baptist Convention. Is that investigation legit? And another blow to Baptist.

Starting point is 00:01:07 Presbyterian podcasters say that Baptist theology caused transgenderism. I will give you my analysis on all of this today. This episode, as always, is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com slash Alley for American Meat delivered to your front door. That's good ranchers.com slash alley. Hey y'all. Welcome to Relatable. Happy Tuesday. All right. So as you could tell from the introduction, we are taking a break from news and politics and we are talking about things that are happening in the church, specifically things that are talking that are happening in the Baptist denomination.

Starting point is 00:01:53 As we've talked about before, the Southern Baptist Convention is the largest and the most influential denomination in Protestantism in America. And so even though this might seem like a niche subject. It actually is relevant for all Christians, I would say all conservatives and really kind of all Americans because it's such an influential and politically active denomination. It's important for everyone to kind of understand the direction it's going, what's happening with its leaders. So I first want to talk about this Matt Chandler story. I will just summarize what happened and then I'll kind of give my personal reaction to it. Matt Chandler, if you don't know, He's the lead pastor of teaching at the village church in Flower Mound, Texas.

Starting point is 00:02:37 That's a suburb of Dallas. He is the president of the Acts 29 Network, which is a global church planning ministry. He really, he burst on the stage, I would say, for most people, most people started knowing who he is and listening to his sermons online. I would say probably around like 2008. Now, he had been around before that, of course, as a pastor, as a teacher. I'm sure locally a lot of people knew who he was before that. But nationally, it seems, at least in my consciousness and in my memory, it seems like he really

Starting point is 00:03:13 became popular around 2008, 2009. Now, that is also, that also happens to be when I started listening to him. So maybe that's it. But in my mind, it seemed like that's when he really started rising to national prominence and popularity. So a lot of you have probably heard his sermons. You've either watched some of the videos that he's put out or watched some of his sermons. One of his most famous clips online is Jesus wants the Rose. Like I remember showing my friends that in college. And as I'll talk about in a few minutes, he has been very, very influential on my theology, my understanding of the gospel, especially when I was a junior, senior, in high school.

Starting point is 00:03:55 even though I've had plenty of disagreements with him and his takes on social and so-called racial justice over the past few years, I would still say he has been extremely impactful on my faith and on my love for theology and understanding of scripture. So the story that I'm about to summarize, it makes me very personally sad for the reasons that I just listed. And I will expound upon that in just a minute after I tell you what happened. So this is according to Christianity today. Matt Chandler steps aside after inappropriate online relationships. So Christianity today, just FYI, I would categorize it now as a progressive publication. It hasn't always been as overtly progressive as it is today. But when it comes to this story, they do give us a pretty

Starting point is 00:04:52 detailed summary of what happened over the weekend with Matt Chandler and his church. So the article says on Sunday, August 28th, Chandler announced to his church that he had an inappropriate online relationship with a woman. He is taking an indefinite leave of absence from preaching and teaching. Now, this is an important part here. I know that maybe if you've already looked at this story online, then you're seeing a lot of people make assumptions or saying things that we that we just don't actually know or true. This is a really important point. The church says that the relationship or the conversations,

Starting point is 00:05:30 the interactions that he was having with this woman online were not sexual or romantic in any way. But the elders of the church believe that the frequent and familiar direct messages that were exchanged over Instagram were, quote, unguarded and unwise and revealed something unhealthy in Matt Chandler. So how this all started, and this is a quote, according to Matt Chandler himself and his announcement to his church over the weekend. He says that the red flag came several months ago when a woman approached him in the foyer of the village church after a church service and confronted him with concerns about how he was communicating with a friend of hers, a female friend of hers, and that she didn't think that these online exchanges that they were having were appropriate. Now Chandler says that he pushed back on this initially saying, you know, look, my wife knows about

Starting point is 00:06:24 these messages. Her husband knows about these messages. I'm sure that he defended himself by saying this is not romantic, you know, this is totally platonic, but he says that he was disoriented by this confrontation and conversation. And so he says that he immediately went to the elders in his church and he said, hey, here's what happened. I want accountability. I want total transparency. He says that he called for a third party investigation. And so church leadership and this investigation reviewed his DMs and decided that they were concerning. Again, not romantic or sexual. But he says that there was coarse joking, that there was crude joking, that again, it was just very frequent and familiar and that they found this to be very inappropriate.

Starting point is 00:07:16 So the law firm that they hired as the third-party investigator decided that Chandler had violated the church's social media use policy. Chandler said this, quote, it was that our conversations were unguarded and unwise, and because I don't ever want there to be any secrets between us. The concerns were really about frequency and familiarity. We believe in brother-sister relationships here, and yet there was a frequency that moved past that. And there was a familiarity that moved past that. And there was a familiarity that played itself out in coarse and foolish joking.

Starting point is 00:07:54 It's unbefitting to someone in my position. If I'm honest, he says, I'm just really embarrassed. Feel stupid. Feel dumb. Feel like I'm embarrassing my wife and kids. Putting a ton of pressure on our staff. Acts 29, which he is, which he is the head of, has also asked Matt Chandler to step down from his responsibilities and day-to-day operations are going to be moved to someone else. And so this was a

Starting point is 00:08:24 shock for a lot of people, including me, including someone who has really respected him. And he just seems like someone. And I'm not even, I'm not even saying that he's not in general, but he really does seem like someone who is above her approach. He talks a lot about being, um, being above her approach and being a good man, a good husband, someone that is accountable, someone who is transparent and honest. And so I think a lot of people who really respect and admire him are disappointed by this, obviously so thankful that it's not romantic and that it is not sexual. I mean, praise God for his protection in that. Thank God for that. But still, a lot of people are, of course, saddened, even while there is a ton of grace and there's a ton of understanding and there's a ton of gratitude

Starting point is 00:09:19 for the confession and for the actions of the church in trying to hold him accountable. We'll talk in a minute about church discipline, how I think that this is a good example of how the church is to discipline its pastor. And I also think that Matt Chandler's attitude and his disposition and what appears to be genuine humility in confessing this sin and submitting to his elders is a really good example of how the local church is supposed to operate. Now, not all reactions were like that, as you can imagine on Twitter. As I mentioned a few minutes ago, there are people who are making assumptions. There are people who are jeering, who are cheering, who are cheering over this because they don't like Matt Chandler. Now, I've already said that I've had disagreements with Matt Chandler over the

Starting point is 00:10:07 past few years when it comes to social justice and so-called racial justice comments that he's made about things like white privilege and systemic racism and Black Lives Matter. And I just have not agreed with a lot of his opinions when it comes to those things and even his attitude surrounding those things. And I say that as someone who doesn't have it all figured out myself, but I have really, it's really made me sad the disagreements that I've had with him on these kind of what I think are major issues over the past few years. And yet the people who are jeering and cheering and cheering on social media over this or making assumptions or gossiping about this or not the people who like me are, have disagreed with him on those kinds of issues. But really,

Starting point is 00:10:58 the people who would probably identify as progressive Christians. So here is one tweet by Mike the therapist who says remat Chandler indiscretion. I've counseled well over 100 pastors who were disciplined or fired for sexual reasons. Here's an absolute rule I found. Whatever they admit to is the bare minimum of what has happened. They only admit to exactly what they were caught doing. That is a slanderous assumption. That is because we have no idea if that's true. That's basically saying that this person knows that this pastor, Mike the therapist, knows that there was actually sexual impropriety here, that there was actually some kind of romantic relationship going on here and that really he is just being dishonest because he knows that's what he can get away with.

Starting point is 00:11:47 I mean, that is, I mean, as far as we know, that is bearing false witness. That is a false accusation. And that in itself is a sin. There's someone else, Boz Chividen, who says, after listening to a statement to the congregation, my educated guess is that there is much more to this story not in a good way. This has a way of bringing forth the whole truth. And then someone with a trans flag in this person's bio says, just saw the news and read the story about Matt Chandler online.

Starting point is 00:12:17 I've got to say, if it was simply that what Mr. Chandler says it is, that it shouldn't rise to the level that this has taken, there's more or else the church's legalism. is more toxic than I thought. And that's what's a little bit confusing about these reactions from people who call themselves progressive Christians, which of course, as I've said before, is really an oxymoron. But that they will simultaneously say that someone like Mike Pence saying, hey, I'm not going to be alone with a woman that's not my wife. I'm not going to be going to dinner with them.

Starting point is 00:12:49 I'm not going to be communicating with them in any kind of private way. they will malign him, they will make fun of him, they will say that that's sexist, that that's misogynist, that that's patriarchal and paternalistic, and that that hurts women, and that that is the wrong attitude. That's not a godly attitude.

Starting point is 00:13:10 And then those same kind of people will turn around and say that someone like Matt Chandler, oh, well, if they're having a conversation online, then there's got to be more here. There's got to be more going on. it can't just be that they were friendly and familiar with each other. Really, what the so-called progressive Christians can't understand is that the standard of purity and the standard of righteous action and healthy relationships when it comes to Christian teachers

Starting point is 00:13:45 is quite a bit higher than what they think it should be or what they think it is. that it is, at least to me, it is not obvious or likely at all that there is some other secret, scary part to this story that the church is not admitting. I think that this is wishful thinking on behalf of a lot of people who really hate Matt Chandler's negative words about things like deconstruction, the fact that he is conservative, even though I think he has some wrong progressive views on things like social justice. I mean, he is conservative. He has conservative theology. He believes in conservative, what I would simply call biblical gender roles, the biblical definition of marriage, the biblical definition of male and female. He has been a consistent

Starting point is 00:14:35 anti-abortion voice for years. And so this to me, the celebration, I would say like underhanded celebration, the celebration that is that they are trying to like cloak, with fake concern. Coming from these professing Christians on Twitter is really disgusting. And I think probably speaks to something in their heart more than it does to some kind of hidden reality of this situation. Now, if there is more to this story, well, you know, maybe it will come to light. but I think that it probably speaks to just a gossipy slanderous motivation in us for us to be trying to make different kinds of assumptions, especially publicly.

Starting point is 00:15:31 So I have more to say about this. I have more in-depth and personal commentary about it. And I do want to talk a little bit about what the Bible says about church discipline and why I think this is a good example of that in a second. Hey, this is Steve Deast. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against

Starting point is 00:16:03 first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they lead, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this T-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. So let me tell you a little bit more about why personally this story makes me really sad. Sadder than if it was another prominent evangelical pastor. So my brother introduced me to his sermons.

Starting point is 00:16:50 I think in 2009. So I would have been junior, senior, in high school. I visited the church with my brother and his wife around that time. And this was about the time in my life when my faith was becoming real, for lack of a better word. It was going from something that my parents taught me to something that I wanted for myself. I was listening to and reading everything, like a very wide range. like Joel Osteen and C.S. Lewis and Stephen Ferdick and David Platt and Donald Miller and John

Starting point is 00:17:26 Piper and Rob Bell and Tim Keller. Like I was just reading everything. And honestly, I didn't have a whole lot of discernment back then. I just wanted to know more about theology. I wanted to know more about the Bible. This book that I had really been reading and memorizing my whole life, I really felt like when I was about 16, 17 years old is when the gospel became. real to me when it became also interesting to me. Now, thank God for His Holy Spirit and his discernment and pulling me towards solid teachers in a way from the bad teachers. But the person that the Holy Spirit used during that time to help give me that discernment, to help me distinguish between the true gospel and the false gospel between superficial teaching and profound teaching was Matt Chandler.

Starting point is 00:18:16 I had never heard someone preach the Bible like him with such earnestness and enthusiasm and clarity and humor. And here's what revolutionized my theology at the time and still affects how I read and approach everything to this day is that he brought everything back to the gospel. It didn't matter whether he was preaching out of Leviticus or John. Everything made its way back to Christ. and that changed the way I read the Bible, that changed the way I saw life. If there was one teacher that I can credit for initially making me excited about theology, enthusiastic about the gospel, it was Matt Chandler. Now, God has used a lot of people, a lot of books, a lot of churches, a lot of sermons in my life

Starting point is 00:19:08 that have helped shape my worldview. Too many to name. But Matt Chandler's teaching and preaching changed the game. changed the game for me about 13 years ago. I made all my friends in college listen to him. I got my now husband hooked on him. Truly, his gift of teaching has been so formative in my life in so many ways. And I don't know him personally at all. I don't think I've even ever met him in person. And yet, this situation, like, I feel it personally. It makes me personally sad simply because of how long I've been listening to him, even though I've listened to him less over the past few years because of the

Starting point is 00:19:49 concerns that I have when it comes to, as I've said, the issues of race and justice, but this still so deeply disappoints and saddens me. And of course, I too, just like a lot of people, I do have those curiosities about like what really went down here. Of course, I'm wondering, like, who initiated the conversation, what they talked about. And I'm also, I'm thinking about his family. As he mentioned, I'm thinking about his wife and his kids and how difficult this must be. I'm wondering about the woman. How is she feeling about how this went down, how it's being represented by the media, by the church?

Starting point is 00:20:28 What about her family? How is all of this for them? Like, does she go to that church? Is she unable to? I don't know any of those questions. There's so much we don't know. And I don't want to do the same thing that a lot of professing Christians on Twitter. are doing, particularly those who just don't like him because he is conservative

Starting point is 00:20:47 theologically by assuming that there must be so much more to the story or even I've seen this a lot portraying the woman involved as a victim. There are people saying that Chandler slid into her DMs and are accusing him of abusing his power. We just don't know any of that. And like I would hate for someone to make those kinds of assumptions about me, especially after I have done what I think is the right thing and being transparent about something I would hate for someone to try to make further assumptions. I mean, that is gossip. That is slander. It's hateful

Starting point is 00:21:22 because it seems to be hoping for someone that you disagree with to fail. And from what we know, at least from what we can see, this was a proper use of church discipline. The Bible speaks to different forms of discipline or also how the different ways in which Christians can disagree or not even just disagree, confront each other about sin in a way that is godly. Matthew 18, 15 through 17 speaks to this. If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you that every charge may be

Starting point is 00:22:02 established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. and if he refuses to listen even to the church, then let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. So it seems to me like Matt Chandler has believed in, has agreed with his brothers in Christ, the leadership of the church, that the conversation, the interactions that he was having with this woman were inappropriate and is submitting to them. 1st Corinthians 2.5 through 11 says, now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure, not to put it too severely to all of you. For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, so you should rather turn to forgive, turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by

Starting point is 00:22:46 excessive sorrow, so I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. For this is why I wrote that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, so that he would not be outwitted by Satan for we are. are not ignorant of his designs. So for the Christian who repents in a church, there is a command to comfort them, to forgive them, to remind them of the grace of God. That is indeed a testimony of the forgiveness that God has shown us through Christ. First Timothy 3.1, the saying is trustworthy. If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. And so the office of

Starting point is 00:23:34 overseer or the leader of the church is a noble task and it's a task that comes with a lot of responsibility, bigger responsibilities, more accountability and even a higher standard of behavior than other positions in within the church or even lay people in the church. James 3.1, not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. Now, I am not reading that verse because I don't think that Matt Chandler should be a teacher. Obviously, I think that he has a wonderful gift of teaching and expositing the word of God. I am reading this verse as an example, a biblical example of the bar that is raised for those who are in positions of teaching and authority and influence within the church, that they will be judged with greater strictness.

Starting point is 00:24:32 So for the people who are saying, oh, it's just DMs. It's who cares. It's just interactions back and forth with a woman. Why does he need this level of scrutiny? Why does he need any church discipline at all? Well, look, scripture says that they are going to be judged, that these teachers will be judged with greater strictness. So from everything that I can see, and of course, like, I'm not a member of this church.

Starting point is 00:24:57 I don't know all of the details. I don't know everything that went down. I'm probably not even privy to all of the information that the members of the village church are. But it seems, at least from the outside, that this was a good and healthy exercise of church discipline and that this was handled in a way that is godly. And I hope that it was handled in a way that considered all parties involved. And I hope that God is glorified through this. Now, outlets like the New York Times have already picked this up.

Starting point is 00:25:29 And they will sense, I mean, the secular media that hates, the church and especially hates the Southern Baptist Convention simply because the majority of Southern Baptist vote Republican and are conservative on their issues that they hold up as idols like gender and marriage or, you know, homosexual unions and abortion. And so they are going to try to attack him. Of course. That's why you are seeing some glee on Twitter from these people who want to see yet another conservative Christian leader step down or be attacked or be destroyed in some way. It also affirms the perspective of a lot of these people that, oh, all church leaders are just giant hypocrites see Christianity isn't true. So this is happening at the same

Starting point is 00:26:22 time that as NPR reports, the Department of Justice is investigating the Southern Baptist Convention. So even though Matt Chandler's interaction was not romantic or sexual, this is going, this situation is going to be seen in light of the bigger investigation that is going on. And I just want to talk about that briefly before getting to our last story about my disagreements with my friends at Cross Politics about baptism. All right. So this is according to NPR. On Friday, August 12, the leader to the SBC said that several of their major entities are under investigation by the United States DOJ after the release of the Guidepost Sex Abuse Task Force findings. Now, I will link the previous episode where we have talked about these investigations. Basically, in May, Guidepost Solutions released a report on sexual abuse and coverups in the SBC.

Starting point is 00:27:31 They also released a list of pastors and other church affiliated personnel accused of sexual abuse. use in June, the list includes more than 700 entries. There is a lot of drama, a lot of back and forth, a lot of disagreement about how that investigation went down, about the inclusion or the conclusion of that investigation. And so go back, listen to that episode for a more detailed kind of analysis of everything there. I mean, it does seem, now this is not at all to minimum any real instance of sexual abuse, sexual harassment, or cover up, especially when it involves child victims. I don't want you to hear me minimizing that at all or trying to push back against real accountability for those things, legal accountability for those things, because I think

Starting point is 00:28:24 that there is a place for civil authorities when it comes to abuse, even and especially within the church. And I've talked about this before. It is even, grosser, it is even worse when it is Christians perpetrating those kinds of crimes and that kind of perversion because we are supposed to be light in the darkness. We are supposed to be a beacon of goodness and compassion. We are supposed to be a refuge for the most vulnerable, not people who are a refuge for those who pray on the most vulnerable. So I do think it is okay for people to hold the church to a higher standard than they hold secular institutions. But I don't think that there should be different standards legally for the church versus secular institutions.

Starting point is 00:29:13 And it does seem when it comes to a DOJ investigation of the SBC that this is a different standard than say the DOJ would apply to, I don't know, the public education system, a public school, any kind of entity that happens to align with the politics of the DOJ. It would be hard for me to believe that there isn't at least some kind of political motivation in Biden's DOJ and going after the SBC because, again, the SBC is so majorly conservative and is such a big supporter of Republican political candidates. It's hard for me to believe based on the previous actions of this DOJ and how they have gone after people based on their political ideology like the parents. the concerned parents going to school boards and complaining about pornography in their kids' schools. The DOJ said that they were going to be investigating those parents who were just being responsible parents. So really hard for me to believe that this is completely above board. This is just impartial application of the law against the SBC. There's not a whole lot of detail about what is going on.

Starting point is 00:30:31 on within that investigation. Of course, I'll talk about it more as the investigation goes on. But every time there is an indiscretion or every time there is a true scandal, every time there is an SBC pastor, a Baptist pastor, any evangelical, any Protestant pastor that confesses to any kind of sin publicly, it is going to be weighed against the backdrop of the fun. of the findings in the SBC and also this DOJ investigation. I don't think that's necessarily fair because that casts it in maybe a more serious and a harsher light than it needs to be, particularly when it comes to Matt Chandler's case.

Starting point is 00:31:19 But I do, I mean, it is important context, of course, for us to understand that there's a lot that's going on in the SBC right now and that it will be some. subject to a lot of public commentary and a lot of public scrutiny, especially by people who want to see this denomination and Christianity at large fail. As Christians, as a member of the SBC, of course, I pray for true justice. I pray for true transparency and true honesty and true help for those who are victims of violence or victims of a cover-up. But of course, I also pray against any kind of partial injustice that may be being enacted by those who are empowered. So in keeping with our Baptist theme, I do want to talk about my disagreements with the guys over at Cross Politic. Cross

Starting point is 00:32:17 Politic is a podcast that talks about culture and politics and theology from a reformed perspective, but they are Presbyterian, and I am Baptist. And as Presbyterians, they made some comments about Baptist theology causing transgenderism that, of course, I really disagree with. And so I will explain my disagreement after playing the short clip. let's say I'm Baptist Wrench. Yeah. And you just said what you said.

Starting point is 00:32:53 I know. David gave me permission. You came out and said that my view of waiting to my child is ready to confess faith in our Lord and then baptize them is related to the identity crisis found in transgenderism. Yeah. And I didn't say related to. I said it's the cause of. He tried to give you an ounce. I was trying to give you an ounce.

Starting point is 00:33:21 So, man, connect that, you know, someone who is got good, like David said, got good intentions, raising his family, loving Jesus, you know, all that stuff. And then you throw that bomb in their lap and you're like, you're the cause of the transgendered problem. Yeah. Well, their pastor is, but yeah. Okay, so he goes on to explain. And this is my paraphrasing and what I hope to be an accurate, what I want to be an accurate interpretation of the argument, that the idea of allowing our children to choose whether they are

Starting point is 00:33:56 following Christ when they're, say, 13 years old, which he would say that's what Baptists preach, and then be considered a child of God and a part of God's family, has provided a foundation for identity crisis in young people. This Baptist idea that Baptists, is an outward symbol of an inward reality, I think they would say is very similar to the basis of gender ideology, which says that we get to declare who we are and try to change the external to match what we feel inside. Whereas I believe they as Presbyterians would say that we baptize our children into the family of God as babies, telling them who they are as partakers in God's new covenant. So I think I do understand what he's saying, and I'm not offended by it. I just think

Starting point is 00:34:46 it's wrong. Baptists do believe, and I'll explain why biblically in a minute, that baptism is an outward sign of inward regeneration, that when, by grace through faith, God makes you a new creation in Christ, that the next step in obedience is baptism, which serves as an important, though not salvific in itself, representation of God's inner working in a person's heart. I would argue that transgenderism, just like every worldly attempt at giving people identity and purpose outside of their creator, is not a consequence of that theology, but a perversion of it at best and a total denial of it at worst. Whereas the Bible says, and what Baptists like me believe, God made you, he created you in his image, God made you male or female, and you are either dead in your sin

Starting point is 00:35:32 following the devil, the print of the power of the air, or by grace through faith, you are made alive in Christ, as Ephesians 2 tells us, turned into a new creation who loves God and hates sin. The world says, you make you. You are your own creator. You decide who you are. You declare your identity. Your salvation and satisfaction is found in yourself. Your self-discovery and your self-fulfillment. The only sin. The world says is not being true to yourself, failing to make yourself happy. The old self is who you were before you truly found yourself. And the new self is who you are after you've unleashed the real you and you've started worshipping your inner goddess. That is the exchange of the God of Scripture, which Christians, including

Starting point is 00:36:16 Baptists, believe in, for the God of self. That is not a manifestation of any form of true Christian theology, but is actually a cheap, damaging replacement of it like all false teaching. transgenderism comes from a denial of the very first verse of the first chapter of the first book of the Bible that God created the heavens and the earth and therefore he is the authority over all of it Genesis 1 27 says that God that that authority that creator that identity giver that value of scriber that purpose provider that he made us in his image male and female it is first the denial of that that has led to transgender ideology and all of the identity and purpose issues that humans have today. I assure you, Christians who are Baptists hold fast to the truth of God's word in matters

Starting point is 00:37:11 of identity and purpose. The debate really that we are having is about believers baptism or infant baptism as it comes to how we should raise our kids and what actually is healthy identity giving. And so let me just tell you briefly, I'll summarize kind of the disagreements between Presbyterians what they say about baptism and what I, as a reformed Baptist, would say about baptism. So here is how I would explain the difference in what we think about baptizing and baptizing children, whereas Presbyterians would say, and I think this is the most accurate way to say this without getting too much into the weeds and the complexities, that baptizing babies is a signifier of a Christian family's covenant with God in the same way that circumcision was a sign of God's covenant

Starting point is 00:38:15 with Israel. Baptists would say that that's not on the Bible, that there is no biblical basis for infant baptism, that there are no examples of babies being baptized in Scripture. The command to baptize others is followed by the command to make disciples of Christ, and the command to be baptized is followed by the command to repent. So, for example, go therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 2819. And he said to them, go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes in is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned, Mark 16, 15 through 16. And Peter said to them, repent and be baptized every one of you.

Starting point is 00:38:59 in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So those who received the word were baptized, Acts 2.38 and 41. But when they believed Philip, as he preached good news about the kingdom of God in the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women, Acts 812. Now, in Acts 1615 in 1st Corinthians 116, we see references to baptizing whole households. But in these, there is no indication here that non-believers or that children who hadn't professed faith were baptized. So I just find no biblical support for infant baptism. That is one reason why I am a Baptist. Now, of course, they're theologians, much wiser than me on both sides of this issue. Like, I certainly would not have wanted to go up against someone like R.C.

Starting point is 00:39:54 Sproll on this topic. I think he just knows a little. bit more than me about the Bible, about theology and about the theology of baptism. But there are many other theologians at his same level of wisdom and understanding whom I align with on the issue of baptism. I also see no explicit support for infant baptism being a sign of the new covenant. Like when we see reference to the new covenant in the New Testament, it is referencing the gospel. 2 Corinthians 3 5 through 6. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything is coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God. Who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant? Great chapter talking about our inability to keep the law perfectly to save ourselves.

Starting point is 00:40:42 Now, as I've mentioned, I am a reformed Baptist, which means in part that I believe that Christians are chosen by God, not that we are in charge of our salvation, but that God is Luke 187. Romans 833, Romans 9-11, Ephesians 1-5, Ephesians 2 8 through 10, 2, 10, 2 Timothy 2, 10, Titus 1-1-1, 1-1, 1-Peter 2 for the elect, God's chosen ones. God chose us in him. And so I have significant crossover with the guys at cross-politic. I seriously disagree with this idea that Baptist theology is not just similar to, but is actually the cause of, is actually the basis of transgender ideology. I think that transgender ideology, just again, like all identity and purpose-centered secular ideologies are a perversion of and a denial of any form of Christian theology. Now, I, you know, they are my, I view them and view Presbyterians who, by grace through faith,

Starting point is 00:41:55 believe in the gospel as brothers and sisters in Christ. I think that this is a significant issue. It's not a primary issue. It is not a, you know, salvation denying issue. It's an important one, though. I think it's important to debate. And I know there are a lot of people who are saying, oh, you know, don't listen to cross-politic and we shouldn't be linking arms with them in any way because of what they said about Baptist. Maybe some people feel that way. I don't feel that way. mean, there are harsh words that are said. Now, they did double down on it. They didn't say, oh, well, you know, maybe we could have said that differently or maybe that's not really true. That's concerning to me. I would love to see them kind of more thoroughly debate this issue and

Starting point is 00:42:41 hash this out. But I still think that they bring a lot of value to the table that I am thankful for. But a lot of you kind of were asking about what I thought about this. And you've been asking me for a long time to explain infant baptism versus believers baptism. So I kind of just scratched the surface of that. Anyway, that's everything that's happening in the Baptist world. I know that I said that I was going to play mom moments at the end of this episode, but we ran out of time. And so I'm going to play your voicemail sometime in the next couple of days, I promise, but we've run out of time on this one. I hope you forgive me, but we will be back here tomorrow. Hey, this is Steve Day.

Starting point is 00:43:27 If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 669 | My Thoughts on Matt Chandler & Baptist Theology

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.