Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 679 | Busting Atheism’s Biggest Myths | Guest: Dr. Neil Shenvi

Episode Date: September 15, 2022

Today we’re joined by Dr. Neil Shenvi, chemist, author, and Christian apologist, to discuss his book "Why Believe: A Reasoned Approach to Christianity" and to talk all things apologetics. Dr. Shenvi came to Christ while working for his Ph.D. in theoretical chemistry at UC Berkeley after a campus ministry worker handed him Christian literature. We talk about how important it is for Christians to display Christ in their lives in these ways. Then, we scratch the surface on some answers to a few difficult, age-old theological questions. We discuss the false statement that “we’re not that bad," and Dr. Shenvi explains why the gospel itself is the strongest evidence for why Christianity is actually true. --- Today's Sponsors: Annie's Kit Clubs — all subscriptions are month-to-month, and you can cancel anytime! Go to AnniesKitClubs.com/ALLIE and get your first month 75% off! Good Ranchers — change the way you shop for meat today by visiting GoodRanchers.com/ALLIE and use promo code 'ALLIE' to save $30 off your order and lock in your price! EdenPURE — get 3 Thunderstorm Air Purifiers for under $200 at EdenPureDeals.com, use promo code 'ALLIE'! --- Previous Episode with Dr. Shenvi: Ep 275 | Critical Theory: A Disastrous, Unbiblical Worldview https://apple.co/3BkZsfI --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. But even if you should suffer for righteousness's sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them nor be troubled. But in your hearts, honor Christ the Lord is holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you. 314 through 15. As America is becoming increasingly secular, it is more important than ever for Christians to know what we believe and why. And Dr. Neil Shinvi has just written a book called Why Believe That Can Help Prepare You to give a sound and reasonable answer for Christianity, for the gospel. I think that you will find our conversation about apologetics, about his testimony,

and about this resources that he has created for the body of Christ, really compelling, really fascinating, as well as really encouraging. So without further ado, here is our friend, Dr. Neil Shenvey. Dr. Shinvi, thank you so much for joining us again. It's been a little bit since you've been on. So could you remind everyone who you are and what you do? I am Dr. Neil Shenvi. I am currently a homeschooling dad of our wonderful four kids, but I have a PhD in theoretical chemistry from UC Berkeley. And yet, what you spend most of your time talking about is not theoretical chemistry.

At least that's not what I follow you for. That's not what you talk about on this podcast. You talk about apologetics. You talk about theology. And so tell us how you kind of got into that realm and why you started talking and writing about the things that you do. Sure. I became a Christian at UC Berkeley as a graduate student through a number of mechanisms

through knowing my future wife, Christina, who was a Christian, through reading C.S. Lewis's book, The Scrutate Letters, and through attending church, I met some really brilliant people there who were evangelical Christians and just got plugged into the church and became a Christian. And actually, at Berkeley is where I first became interested in apologetics through knowing atheist. The atheist student group was called Sane, students for a non-religious ethos. So I got to know some of them. and I wanted to share the gospel with them and with my other very scholarly intellectual colleagues in departments of chemistry and physics.

Yeah. And then so tell us then how you came to write what you do, though, in Shinvi Apologetics, and you talk about things that people consider political, although you don't make them political, like critical race theory and intersectionality. So tell us how you kind of came upon that. Well, yeah, for the beginning of my Christian life, I was very focused on the gospel. I didn't pay much attention to politics or the culture wars. I just wanted to share the gospel of people.

And I actually wrote this book years ago, had the first draft finished in my colleague, Dr. Pat Sawyer, who I've collaborated with on a number of issues related to critical theory. But he looked at my book and said, this is great. Let me shop it out to some publishers. But I'd finish the book and was looking around for other areas that I could research and study. And that's how I got involved in studying critical theory and reading a lot of books about critical theory, critical race theory, queer theory, and so forth, which is how I've kind of become more well-known publicly.

I gotcha. And you said that you became a Christian at UC Berkeley, not what many people think of when they think of UC Berkeley, someone actually becoming a Christian. I think often people think of people going to college, but especially somewhere like UC Berkeley and abandoning their faith or kind of abandoning the foundation that was laid for them by their parents. But what was your journey like leading up to UC Berkeley? Were you raised in any sort of Christian home? No, not really. My parents are wonderful people, very moral people, but they were not religious.

And so when I went to college, I went to Princeton, and I would have considered myself spiritual but not religious. I probably would have called myself a Christian, but just because, you know, I'm in America. And so I'm a Christian, right? I believed in God. But I had almost no understanding of Christian theology. So at Princeton, I was actually, as a freshman, I got a copy of the screw tape letters, C.S. Louis's wonderful books, the fictional work from a book table that was handing out free copies. And they had the Bible, it was Christian, it was, a campus grid for Christ, was handing out the book.

And they had the Bible, they had a bunch of C.S. Lewis's works, and I grabbed the free C.S. Lewis books, and I just skipped the Bible. I was like, forget it. I'm not going to read that. But Lewis's work was fascinating because I read it probably 10 to 20 times as a non-Christian because it was so insightful. I thought to myself, how does this guy know what's going on in my head? How does you understand the pride, the temptations, the posturing, the insecurity? And that really set the seeds for my eventual conversion. And that happened again at Berkeley when basically I just heard the gospel and realized I couldn't keep avoiding it.

If this was true, objectively true for everyone, that I had to simply accept it, even if I didn't like it. There were lots of questions I had about hell and God's wrath and all these things I didn't like. But it came down to, is it true or false? And so that's how I basically had to humble myself and say, you know, I thought I knew all about God and spiritual things. but really, I'm like a little child.

They need to be led, and God led me to Jesus. Yeah. Wow. There are so many things in your answer that I would like to unpack. But one thing that I was thinking of is you said it was Campus Crusade for Christ and that they just had these free books. I'm sure that people who have kind of manned that book table or who have put those free books on a table, they often just think, okay, this is something that I'm doing?

Is it really going to make a difference? Is it really that important? little things that Christians do on a daily basis that maybe you're hoping will be consequential and share the gospel, but you're not really sure how much it's actually doing. Something as simple as putting free C.S. Lewis books on a table. God used that to lead you to the gospel, to lead you to Christ, and now you have become an apologist. Now you have an impact on so many other people because some campus minister decided that they were going to put free books on a table, something that seemed so commonplace and so minimal. And yet,

God has used it to make a huge impact. So as much as your answer, I think, can encourage non-Christians. Also, it should encourage Christians. You never know what your small step of faith, what your seemingly small act of obedience in the way of glorifying the Lord can do for the kingdom of God by his power. I mean, God is a multiplier. And that's what I'm thinking when I'm thinking of your story. So anyway, amen, absolutely. You know, I actually gave out books when I was a postdoc at Yale. I was part of a book table through Campus Crusade, giving out free books. And I shared my own story and said, never, you see these people, grab your book, walk away, you never see them again. Never feel hopeless. Never feel like,

oh, God's not going to use that. It was like every single act of obedience is important. I was at Berkeley, actually. I would give out free Bibles. And I kind of got discouraged. I was like, I'm just handing out these free Bibles, they're probably going to throw in the trash. But in the front cover, the inscription of that Bible that I had was a passage from Isaiah that said, the words that come out of my mouth will not return to me void. I said, that's exactly correct. I'm going to give these out, trusting that God will use them. And he does.

Yes. You know, your testimony kind of reminds me of one part. If you're familiar with Christopher Yuan, he has written a lot of wonderful books. He, I think his book about his testimony is out of a far country that he wrote with his mom. He has a book called Holy Sexuality. But he talks about how he was in prison and he was laying on the cot in his prison cell. And he looked up and he saw a verse. And it was Jeremiah 2911.

Now, again, this is just an instance of someone doing something maybe mindlessly when they were writing Jeremiah 29. 11. Who knows why someone who was in that prison cell previously decided to write that Bible verse. And wow, God used that. to then kind of be the starting point to transform someone's life that has then been used to transform so many other people's lives. And so I just love that about God. I love that about the gospel. Tell us a little bit more about how you came to write this book and why this book is distinct from your perspective from other apologetics books out there.

Sure. Basically, it was the fact that I'm cheap. So I was giving away free copies of Kim Keller's reason for God at Yale and he got expensive. I was like, I can't keep buying these and I just can't afford I'm a postdoc. And so I was encouraged over the years by friends and by elders at my church to write my own book. And what's distinctive? I mean, there are lots of great apologics books out there. But I think five things I wanted to capture with my book, I wanted to be accessible. So there's no technical jargon. I wanted to use a lot of analogies. I was a theoretical chemist and part of my job was trying to think in new, simplified ways about complex topics. So there are a lot of illustrations, not pictures, but ways of thinking about issues like

morality, God's existence, and things like that that I think are helpful and accessible to everybody. But two, I wanted to be intellectual. So there are a lot of good books out there that are written, I think, I don't want to say too simplistically, but there are books that I couldn't hand to my professors at university. Because, for example, a great example of this is Jim Wallace's book Cold Case Christianity. So I really enjoyed that book, and I thought it was very helpful, but it contains hand-drawn cartoon illustrations. And if I were to hand that to an Ivy League professor, they would just

look at it and immediately write it off. Whereas my book is, I interact very heavily with atheist scholars. It has footnotes. There's a lot of stuff that gives it intellectual heft. Third thing, I wanted to be very focused on Christianity. I'm not interested in convincing people that just some kind of vague God force exists. I wanted to aim at showing that Christianity particularly is true. And then fourth, it's comprehensive. I treat things like, who is Jesus? Was he raised from the dead?

Is there evidence of that? Does God exist? I tackle objections to Christianity like, can miracles occur? What about the problem of evil and suffering? How could a good God allow evil? and I talk about the gospel itself. It's been a long time just explaining people, what does Christianity at its core teach about our sin and need for salvation?

And then finally, number five, a lot of people said my scientific background shows in writing this book, not because it's full of science, because it's very systematic and logical. I make lists of five bullet points, for example, like I just gave, and it shows through that sort of training from a science background is evident, I think, in my writing based on, reader reviews. Yes. So what audience did you have in mind when you were writing this book?

So the number one audience I had in mind. I wrote this book for Christian students going to college who could hand this book to their professors and not feel intimidated. So the kind of book that they can not just be handed to other students, that'd be great, but to their professors and feel like this is a solid work. But that said, if you look at who, who can benefit, I think, and understand the book. One of the endorsements is from Troy Van Voorhees, who's a professor of theoretical chemistry at MIT, so extremely high-level academic.

But the book's also being read by my friend Stacey Chambers, who's a stay-at-home mom of four boys. And it's also, I taught this class, it was a three-day apologetics boot camp, to about 100 homeschooling students ages 11 through 18. And it was based on this book's material. And the feedback I got was very positive. They loved the course.

A couple of parents were sitting in and they said it was the highlight of the kid's summer. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. So I really aim to make it both sophisticated but also accessible to everybody. So it's not the kind of thing you're going to read it and say, I can't make sense of this. Yeah. And in your experience in kind of talking to the people who have engaged with your work or I guess just engage with people in general, what would you say is the most difficult obstacle or the most difficult question that skeptics or even believers have when it comes to the

existence and the character of God? I think the biggest objection that I've heard and that I see, both actually among, you know, intellectuals and philosophers and among common people, is the problem of evil. The question is, how could a good God allow evil to exist? How is that compatible? And in the book, again, I gave numerous responses, many of which are very very, familiar to people who've studied the philosophical literature on this topic. But I also point out this is a personal issue as well. People experience evil in their lives. So you can't merely

give them an intellectual answer. You have to also give them an answer that speaks to their own lives. So in the book, I do that, and I'll give just two responses for the first one, intellectual, which is that the universe exists to display God's glory. That is why God created everything. And, well, how does evil, although it's evil and God hates it, but it actually does, in the end, further and promote God's glory in two ways one. The fact that God allows sin in the world allows him to demonstrate his love and mercy and tenderness in forgiving sinners, and it allows him to display his justice in punishing sin. So unless, if God had not allowed sin, he would not, logically, there'd be no way for him to display his glory in forgiving sinners, or, in punish in his glory in punishing him in his holiness. So that's one just, that's a logical answer. But I think experientially, how do you trust a God who allows sin and suffering and evil?

That's where I point to the cross. Because Christianity alone says God in the person of his son, let all of that evil and suffering fall on him. That's what we deserved, God took and absorbed for us. And so in the midst of my personal suffering, I can look to God's son and say, He knows what this is like. He's experienced sin and suffering and evil. He hasn't committed it, but he's experienced the results of it. And whatever he's doing in the universe, I can trust this God who suffered in my place. Hey, this is Steve Day.

If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about

where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this T-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. You know, I think that especially on a logical level, I can understand kind of in general the existence of evil that, okay, or sorrow or suffering or sickness, that, okay, we have cancer and we have birth defects and we have miscarriages and we have sadness and rejection and breakups and all that stuff because of sin, because we live in a fallen world. I think it's, which I think this is something that everyone has experienced in this like 24 minute news cycle

that we live in. It's, I think, the very specific acts of like abuse and evil towards the most vulnerable that I, as a believer who cognitively understand everything that you're saying, I struggle so much with those specific acts of evil. Like, you know, and maybe this is sinful of me to even doubt or question in this way, but to say, okay, I understand why some maybe evil happens. But did God really need to allow that child to suffer that abuse or that person to endure that kind of evil, that kind of malice, that kind of suffering? Like where is the glory in that?

I think a lot of people ask that for themselves, whatever trauma they've endured, but they also ask it on behalf of other people. I mean, a grand example is the specific evil and suffering of, you know, the Holocaust. And so, you know, I think some people say, okay, if this all good God would allow that, and then they think of themselves and they say, well, I'm not all good, but I would never allow that. Like, I would never allow my child to go through cancer if I had the choice. I would never allow my child to suffer in that way if I had the choice.

And you're telling me that this God is all good in that he loves me more than I love my children. How does that make sense? So I don't know. I think that's something that a lot of people wrestle with. What do you think? I agree. And one of the things I say in the book, I see many things. Another point I make is that the Christian perspective on suffering has to be framed by eternity.

Even Christians who are obviously very much concerned with eternal men. matters, we tend to think, well, but this life is so much more immediate to us. I'm suffering right now. What about the things that happen right now? And I agree. I'm not trying to minimize that. You have to frame everything in terms of eternity. We're thinking we're talking millions, billions, you know, immeasurable years in the future, you will still be alive. So the point is, even if you can't explain that some act or event of suffering right now, how could that happen? you say, well, wait a minute, am I putting this in the larger story of God's purposes that will go on forever? And this is very biblical.

Paul talks about terrible suffering that he endured in Corinthians. And he talks about how all of that, all of the suffering will seem like nothing in light of eternity. And he was beaten, shipwrecked, left for dead, abandoned by his friends. And he's saying all of that is going to be a drop in the ocean of God's love and forgiveness. that we experience forever. So that's one answer. The other answer, I use this illustration elsewhere. Imagine that you're in World War II in the Pacific.

There's a war going on, and you're on an aircraft carrier with an admiral, and you get a radio call, SOS distress call from a ship out in the Pacific, and it says, we're under attack, we're under fire. If you don't do something right now and intervene, we're going to sink. We're all going to die. And the admiral hears the call come in and does nothing. And you're a reporter. And you go to the admiral, like, well, what's going on?

You hear the call, you know, act. The admiral says nothing. The call comes in again. We're under fire, we're under fire. We need someone send help. And the admiral does nothing. And you're berating him. You're like, what's wrong with you?

Send help. You can do it. You have the web manpower. It saves this ship. And he says nothing. And finally, his second and can't pulls you aside. And he says, the admiral's son is the captain of that ship. Now, what do you immediately know?

You don't know why he's not responding. You don't know his overall plan. You know, one thing. It's not apathy. For whatever reason, he's chosen to allow this suffering to happen. It's not because he doesn't care. His son's on that ship. Well, Christians say, we don't know why God allows evil and suffering, but his son was

on the ship. And he suffered. And God, in the end, he intervened by resurrecting him, but he allowed him to suffer in terrible ways. So we can trust that God and say, hey, I don't know what God's plans are. I know it's not apathy. Yes. I say a lot that God is not.

He's not sitting on his hands and saying, I can't believe that this is happening or I didn't see that coming. He's not surprised or thrown off. And one thing that comforts me about God that I'm sure in your experience you've actually seen, in some cases, is an obstacle to people accepting or believing that the gospel is true. But it comforts me to know that God is also a God of wrath, that he hates injustice, and that he actually promises to take care of evil. and that he actually promises to do away with it, that he is going to avenge innocent blood, that one day, like, he will defeat evil, he will defeat evil doers, he will defeat Satan. There is actually like punishment coming in the form of his wrath. And so it might seem like, as you said, it might seem like if we're just focused on the here and the now that he's doing nothing.

But his eternal plan of redemption is always going off without a hitch. and his wrath is kindling against evil. And so one day, like, he will take care of all the evil, all of the injustice that we're talking about, and it will be no more. So it's not that he's apathetic toward it, right? It's not that he doesn't care. He actually is going to do something about all of it one day. Right. The Bible says actually it's his patience because in second Peter, it said Peter at the time thousands of years ago, people were saying, where is this punishment?

where's the second judgment? Where is it happening? And Peter says, you don't understand. He's being patient giving you a chance to repent. Yeah. Because you call down judgment. Well, that's going to fall on you too if you're not repentant. So the point is he's delaying his judgment so that you have a chance to turn and trust in him and be saved.

And what do you say to those who say, okay, I understand he has to punish the Hitler's of the world. He has to punish the really evil people, the people that, you know, hurt others, that experience. exploit people that are corrupt. We get that. But why do the people who, like you mentioned, your parents are very moral people. We all know people like that who are not believers, but they're good people. They're nicer than some Christians that we know. They've never heard a fly. They have wonderful lives. We're friends with them. And yet, okay, because they don't believe that Jesus is the way, the truth in the life, they're going to suffer forever in eternity. they are going to bear the brunt of God's wrath and suffer in eternal damnation.

How can a loving and just God do that? Right. And one of the questions I talk about this in my book, actually, is people will often say, well, yeah, I get that I have problems, some problems, but I'm not that bad, right? Yeah, I don't need a salvation from a rescue. That's for really bad people, but it's not for people that are kind of just normal people like me. And I say several things. One is that we underestimate, we don't understand God's holiness. What that means is his complete perfection, therefore he abhors all evil, all evil,

not just the really big things that we deem super bad, but all evil. And the analogy that I've used before is that the seriousness of a crime, it increases in proportion to the person you've sinned against. So, for example, if I were to spit on a stranger, That's bad. That's evil. If I were to spit in the face of my child, that's much worse, right? If I were to spit in the face of my wife, that's horrifying. But what if I were to spit in the face of God, my creator, who is literally holding my body together and giving me every breath that I spit in his face?

Not once, but I just kind of ignore him every single day of my life. And I just don't bother with him. I don't carry about his commands. I don't worship him. I just, what is that kind of sin? Not just once or twice, but my whole life looks like that. And he's nothing of actual acts of disobedience. So we begin to get a higher view of God.

We begin to get a higher view or a lower view of our own sinfulness. We really are that bad. And one experiment I actually used in the book, I think it goes back to Francis Schaefer, is I imagine what if you had an app on your phone that could read your mind and then just broadcast your thoughts, all your thoughts, all of them at full volume wherever you went. And you couldn't turn the app off. And the question is, where would you go in that 24-hour period when the app was on on your phone?

Would you go to out in public, go to the store, go to the movies, go to church, go to the beach? And most people would say, I would stay in my room with the doors locked. Yeah. And the app underneath my pillow while I'm sitting on it. Now, why? Well, because we know deep down our thoughts are dark. We have thoughts that we're ashamed of. And now think God, we all say, well, God's omnipotent. Or amnition. He knows everything he can read. Okay. If you can't take the truth about your heart for 24 hours and know what other human beings can, what do you think God feels about that, knowing that all the time for your entire life? And you're trying to cover it up and it's not that bad.

It is that bad. And you know it. Deep down you know it. You know, I think that's one thing that the Puritans have over like modern evangelicals. I recently reread the Pilgrim's progress. And while there is something that I'm not sure we're depicted totally correctly, like I think he kind of misses the presence of the Holy Spirit continuously with us. But, man, it has the same effect on me that screw tape letters does. in showing me a reflection of the ugliness of my sin.

And it kind of rids you of any delusion that, hey, I think I'm actually doing pretty good. You know, apart from Christ, I'm still managing this whole thing on my own. I don't have any huge glaring sense in my life. You couldn't find some, like, giant act of disobedience that I'm doing on a daily basis. But those kinds of books, in the same way that Scripture does, but also a different way, it really kind of uncovers the truth that's underneath that, hey, your pride, your ego, your doubt, your little acts of disobedience when you do something without faith, that is an affront to God. And that is actually an example of stumbling.

That's not something that you can ignore. That's actually something that you have to repent of. I think in this day and age, it's really hard for people to. to understand the ugliness of the human heart because we're constantly told, at least women are, that we're perfect the way we are and that all we have to do is love ourselves, that we're actually princesses and goddesses and all of our issues are society's problems, not our own. So it can be really hard, I think, to convince someone, yeah, actually this is why some humans are deserving of hell. This is why you need the gospel because you're not perfect.

That's kind of a tough sell today, I would think. One of the points I'm making the book is that there are only two postures towards God and then towards other people. And they're actually illustrated in Jesus' parable of the Pharisee, the tax collector in Luke 18. So if you say, when you say, well, I am not that bad. I mean, sure, maybe these really bad people need Jesus, but not me. Well, whereas if you look at Jesus' actual historical life, people who flocked him. The prostitutes and tax collectors flock to him. And the religious people, the Pharisees, did not.

Why? Because they knew they were messed up. There was no doubt. They were like, I am a disaster. I need rescue. But the good people who thought they were good, well, I don't need that. The funny thing is this, when you admit that I am horrifyingly evil in my heart, you can't see it on the outside, but God knows my heart, and he sees my need for a savior.

When you admit that to God and to yourself, it makes you radically humble and it makes you radically compassionate towards other bad sinners like you, because you know how bad you are. But if you reject that posture and say, well, I'm not that bad, that actually acts to you, you distance yourself. I'm not like that guy. Now, that guy could be a really immoral, you know, prostitute or maybe a greedy CEO who is, But it doesn't matter if you point at someone else and say, I'm not as bad as that guy. That's pride.

That's the sin of self-righteousness. So there's only one or two postures. Either I am just as bad as everyone else. The tax collector says to God, have mercy on me a sinner. And Jesus says he goes to him justified. The other posture is that of the therapist who says, I'm not like other men. And that kind of pride is absolutely diabolical. And it's going to ironically lead you to despise other human beings.

beings because you think you're better than some of them. Yeah, that's so interesting. I think that we certainly see the effects of kind of casting humility as a vice and pride as a virtue. I see that in so many segments of our society that, yes, people say it's just confidence or it's self-love, but it really is a form of narcissism and pride that we're told that it will fulfill and satisfy us and actually heal our relationships and help us reach our goals. Actually, it makes us really miserable. It actually places like a huge burden on us that we cannot carry and that is to be our own God. I think it was CS Lewis. I don't know if it was a mere Christianity or screw tape letters, but he said, I'm pretty sure he said that every vice is really just pride. Every vice is a variation of or a manifestation

of pride. And I think that's true. Yeah, you're trying to be your own God, your own Lord and Savior. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about. creation and the beginning of the universe, I would guess for some people, although I don't know for how many people, for some people, maybe this is the stumbling block, maybe this is the obstacle that they say, okay, seven-day creation can't have happened, not realistic, and if Genesis is just kind of a metaphor, then why do I need to take the rest of the Bible seriously? How do you deal with people who are skeptical about that? Well, two things. I always point people to Jesus first, right? Because I think, and this is, I think

even, I think every Christian would agree whether you're a younger, the creationist or not. You would say, the reason we believe this stuff is because the Bible teaches it. Well, why believe the Bible? Because Jesus believed it. Why believe Jesus was right? Wow, there you go. Well, who is Jesus? If he's God's son, then we should take all of his views as true. He's God incarnate. So I always point people first to Jesus and say, well, what did Jesus think about scripture, about reality as a whole, who is Jesus, and start there and then deal with other issues like seven-day creationism later. In the book, though, I do address the objection of evolution. Just say, this is very common today, is that evolution shows we don't need a God.

We understand how life came about without any invocation of a creator and therefore we're done with God. Richard Dawkins in his book, The God Delusion, invokes this argument centrally as why we don't need, why God doesn't exist, actually. So in my section on evolution, I just basically remove that objection. I don't get into the details of creation. I just say, look, for both philosophical and scientific reasons, I think that evolution does not remove the possibility that God existed and created the universe. And I give lots of other discussions of like, well, how does science point us to the need for a creator, Elter in the book as well? But I tend to just say, look, let's start with more basic questions like, is science opposed to God or does remove the native creator without going into the details?

Again, this is, I'm trying to squeeze all this into a 300-page book, so I don't want to get too into the weeds in this stuff. Yeah. And what about the science of or scientific objections to the resurrection? Obviously, the resurrection is central to our beliefs as Christians. And so what should be the response to people who say, well, I just can't believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Right. And I actually point out that, and this is my field, actually. So my specialization was quantum mechanics.

And so I point out that when you say, well, the universe miracles can't happen. You're thinking a very Victorian 19th century model of science. The world's like a big clock with gears and things just happen deterministically. And I point out that actually that's an old-fashioned archaic view of science, Modern physics shows that these laws that are so-called ironclad, inviolable laws of nature are actually very weird. And the bottom line is that you can no longer say, even as a scientist, that miracles are impossible because they violate the laws of nature. It's much more complicated than that. And when it comes to the resurrection, I think I lay out in the book that there's lots of historical evidence that Jesus really did rise from the dead.

And even atheists and non-Christians will agree that, yeah, there actually is some really strong evidence in favor of this explanation, even if they, as atheists, reject it. So it's really, for me, I was really surprised to see atheists admitting, okay, there's something going on here, or certainly non-Christian, saying something happened and it's confusing. And then if you have other reasons to take Jesus seriously, look at his teaching, his impact, you look at arguments for God's existence, you have to at least consider the possible. that God did perform a miracle in raising Jesus from the dead. And again, I make that case in my chapter on the resurrection. And why Christianity? I mean, some people say, you know, there are other very similar stories to Jesus and ancient religions, all religions, especially the Abrahamic religions.

Aren't they all just telling you a way to get to God? Why are Christians so exclusive about their way being right? Yeah, this is actually, this is my favorite section of the book. It's called the argument from the gospel. So I make the pretty surprising claim that the gospel itself, the message that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead to rescue us, that that is evidence, the strongest evidence, that Christianity is actually true.

And that Christians might be like, wait, what? Because we think of apologetics as trying to show people that Christianity is true so that then you can share the gospel. So you start by saying, well, what are your objections? Let me fix those. And then later I'll tell you the gospel. Whereas I'm saying the gospel itself, is the best argument for Christianity being true.

And the argument goes like this. I got an analogy. The analogy I make is this. Imagine I'm playing basketball. And I suddenly collapse on the court. People run over and they say, what's wrong with you? And they look at me and they say, oh, you sprained your ankle, just walk it off. Another guy says, no, let me get an ace bandage for my car.

Another guy says, let me get some Advil. But they're all having this friendly discussion of how I can get up and walk it off, basically. But in the midst of that crowd, a woman rushes up. And she says, get this man to a hospital, Now call 911. I'm a doctor. His life is in danger. I saw what happened.

Get him to a hospital. And the crowd's incredulous. They say, you're overreacting lady. And she turns to me and she says, I'm going to tell you two things. You can't feel your legs and you can't move. And the crowd again is like you're overreacting. Don't freak him out. But I tell them, get me to a hospital right now.

Now, why do I say that? And the answer is I know two things the crowd does not know. And they could not know. I know that I can't feel my legs and I can't move. So I have every reason to believe that she is who she claimed to be. Now, this is the analogy. I'm claiming that Christianity makes two unique claims about your condition as a human being. One, you are radically a moral failure.

You're a sinner. And two, you need a rescuer. Not just improvement, not just a better law, not just better government, not just more affirmation. You need to rescue. I'm saying Christianity is unique in making those claims. And then also I give a long defense that those claims are true. You can know those claims are true just by 10 minutes of self-reflection. You know you're messed up.

You know all the solutions you've tried, all the self-health books, looking at the mirror and saying you're good enough and smart enough and people like you. That's not how your problem. You need rescue. And let me quote this is great. This is a book called God is Not One, written by Stephen Prothero. He's not a Christian. He calls himself religiously confused.

but he argues in that book that all religions are different, but that Christianity alone offers salvation. This is a quote from him. This is a non-Christian religious studies scholar. He says, just as hitting home runs is the monopoly of one sport, salvation is the monopoly of one religion. If you see sin as the human predicament and salvation as the solution, then it makes sense to come to Christ.

that is exactly my argument. And so the gospel itself identifies like no one else does, our real problem and the real solution we know we need. And that makes sense, therefore, to believe that Christianity is uniquely true. For me, it's also, it's helpful to see its opposite as kind of Christianity falls out of the mainstream in the United States, which, you know, God is completely sovereign over that. That doesn't mean any kind of like demise for the global church or anything like that. But as we see it weighing in cultural influence, we see a rise in chaos, arise in confusion, arise in all kinds of moral anarchy. And so it is because it is true. It is true whether you believe it or not.

And therefore, the absence of truth is going to lead to all kinds of really deadly and dastardly consequences. But what do you say to people who say, no, no, no, see, without Christianity, we're finally achieving some sort of liberation. People are free to be who they want to be, identify as they want to identify, love who they want to love. And really, Christianity has just been a tool of oppression and holding people's true selves back and making people miserable and unhappy. And so it can't be true.

It can't be right. So one thing I say in the book is that actually, whether or not something is true, true does not depend on whether you like it. This is a truth that I had to learn as a non-Christian. I had plenty of questions and objections to whether Christianity was good, whether I liked it. But as a scientist, I guess I'm trained to think in terms of not what I like, but what is true. You can't, you approach.

So actually, in the book, I say that theology done right is a lot like science done right in the sense that we kind of have our pet theories, our preferences, but at the end of the day, as a scientist, you let nature tell you what's true. You don't go to nature and say, this is what has to be true. This is what I like. So therefore, it is true. The same way we approach God and we say, who are you as you actually are, whether or not I like it. Now, as for whether or not society is going to be better in the long term by rejecting Christian just assumptions and Christian values, et cetera, I would say, no, it's not. And I think we should be confident as Christians that's the case. And not because, well, you know, there can be societies

that functioned for a long time for decades on atheism, for example, like the Soviet Union. But eventually they crumble. Why? Because they're running into reality. Christianity is actually true and eventually the bill will come due. You can't reject reality forever. Eventually something will collapse. And so that's going to happen. But of course, in the meantime, we don't have to worry about anything except for can we live a faithful life to God right now where we are. And can can we share this good news with our neighbors urgently because they could die tomorrow. Forget about what happens in 15, 20 years. They have one life right now and they need to hear this message.

Yeah. We both like analogies. One thing that I often say is truth. Sometimes I say human nature depending on what I'm talking about. But truth is like a beach ball. And all the powers that be can try to push it down. It's either going to pop or it's going to pop back up. And so that's what happens when you try to enact.

policies or push any kind of idea that is contrary to human nature. And because God created us, all of his rules and parameters and definitions will always be in alignment with what is best for human beings. You deny that. It's like you said, the bill is going to come do it at one point. You mentioned sharing this truth with our neighbors. Can you tell us, and I know it depends on the relationship and the person and the circumstances and all of that, but for someone who's thinking, okay, I've got a spouse or I've got a family member or a friend who is hostile to God, hostile to Christianity, who I know they do not want to talk about this, but I desperately want them to know the gospel.

Like how do you recommend kind of starting that conversation and talking to them about the stuff that we're discussing? So one really helpful, non-threatening way to approach these conversations is by asking them for a book recommendation. Say, I want to understand what you believe about reality. What's the most important thing to you, whether it's religion or politics,

and then inviting them, what's the best book that you'd recommend that I could read, that I could read, then I'd love to discuss it with you. Right? That's a great opening for them to tell you their favorite book

and then you meet and talk about matters that are important to them. So that, on its own is an opening for you to talk about really important things. They might share a book about Marxism or a book about Eastern philosophy. Who knows? But then it gives you an opening to talk about these big questions. And of course, as a Christian, it's going to naturally lead you to talk about what's most important to you. Then oftentimes, I often said, well, can we exchange books? So you

give me a book to read, and I'll read it, and we can talk about that. And then I'll give you a book to read. We'll talk about that. So it's a great, it's very not, and people love to give you book recommendations, right? Who doesn't like to say, I love to read a book with you and talk about it? So it's very easy way to start those conversations. And then actually, that's how I began, getting interested in apologetics, because it was an atheist gave me a book recommendation telling me it's going to totally demolish Christianity. I said, well, okay, so I write this book. And it didn't.

But it was, that's the stuff that actually started me on this journey of showing people that, no, Christianity actually is based on reason and it's well evidence and it's true. So yeah, definitely it's a great opportunity. Yes, definitely. And if people have specific questions to ask you either about your book, about apologetics, about sharing the gospel, can they reach out to you and ask those questions? Absolutely. So I'm on Twitter way too much. At Neil Shenvey. Aren't we all? Aren't we? Well, not everybody. Some wiser people than I have gotten off social media, but I'm still there. So Neil Shenvi, N-E-I-L-S-H-E-N-V-I. If you Google my name, Neil Sch-N-V-E-I,

I'm like the only Neil Shenvi in the world, I think. And so you Google me, you'll find my website, which has dozens of hundreds of articles, book reviews, and information about this book. And it has my email address on my webpage. You're welcome, more than welcome, to email me and ask questions. I get a lot of correspondence. I try to keep up with it. But yeah, you're welcome to it. Or DM me on Twitter.

My DMs are open. Final question. And you have, you've answered this in so many ways in our conversation. but I like to ask this of particular guess. You have 30 seconds or so. You can find on that to share the gospel. What is the gospel? The gospel is that God created the universe.

He created you personally. He knows you. He knows everything about you. That's a problem because all of us, not just you, all of us, don't live up to God's moral standards. We've all sinned against him in many ways in thought, in word and deed. And the solution is not for us to do better, to be better, to do the work, to get religious, to get a better government, to do activism. The solution was God had to intervene by sending his son, Jesus Christ, to live the life that we all ought to have lived, to obey God's law, but then to be punished like a lawbreaker, to die on the cross as a rebel against God. And he raised Jesus from the dead so that he could be our high priest.

He could represent us to God purely sinless and spotless. So all of us, no matter how bad you are, you can be forgiven by trusting in Jesus, work for you on the cross. You can be accepted forever as a child of God. And that is the best news in the entire world. Yes, and amen. Thank you so much. I really encourage people to go out and buy Why Believe a reasoned approach to Christianity.

You can buy it on Amazon. I'm sure you can buy it on other outlets at your local bookstore. as well. Probably easiest to get it on Amazon. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today. Thank you so much, All right, guys. Thanks so much for listening and watching. You probably notice that it looked different and sounded different in the introduction and in the ads. That's because I had to do those from home. So thanks for bearing with us. If you are watching on YouTube, please press the like button and subscribe if you haven't already that helps us out. And leave a five-star review wherever you listen. we love seeing those as well if you love the show.

Thanks so much and we will see you guys back here on Monday. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

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