Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 726 | 'The Chosen:' Questions & Controversies | Guest: Dallas Jenkins

Episode Date: December 19, 2022

Today we're joined by Dallas Jenkins, creator and writer/director/producer of "The Chosen," the first multi-season show on the life of Jesus. We talk about his career in filmmaking and how a career failure led to an important lesson that changed his life. He shares why he created the show and why it seems to resonate so deeply with people. Then, we discuss how much work truly goes into writing a show that uses the Bible as its source. The goal, for Dallas, is to ask, "What is biblically plausible?" as he gets insight from biblical, historical, and cultural scholars to craft the characters. We discuss criticism of the show, much of which has centered around skepticism about LDS involvement in the show's distribution. And ultimately Dallas reminds us that while "The Chosen" is based on the Bible and the life of Jesus and his disciples, it doesn't claim to be the Bible, as only the Bible itself is the true authority. You can watch the third season of "The Chosen" on the Chosen app. --- Timecodes: (01:14) Dallas' introduction to film (07:05) Views on success (19:03) Biblical accuracy and creativity (23:20) Handling criticism (27:25) Mormon controversies (43:27) Clip from season 3 (45:20) Trusting God in the midst of pain --- Today's Sponsors: Good Ranchers — change the way you shop for meat today by visiting GoodRanchers.com/ALLIE and use promo code 'ALLIE' for a discount! Carly Jean Los Angeles — use promo code 'ALLIEB' to save 20% off your first order at CarlyJeanLosAngeles.com! PublicSq. — download the PublicSq app from the App Store or Google Play, create a free account, and begin your search for freedom-loving businesses! --- Relevant Episodes: Ep 725 | Leaving Mormonism for Christianity | Guest: Lynn Wilder https://apple.co/3W0TVnH --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE20' for 20% off the entire shop: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. The Chosen is a wildly popular show about the life of Jesus Christ. It's received a lot of praise as well as its fair share of criticism. And here to discuss all of those things is the creator of the show Dallas Jenkins. We will talk about his life, his story, what led him to create.

create the chosen. And we will also talk about some of the pushback that the show has received, including the controversy surrounding his comments about Mormonism and Jesus. It's a great conversation. I know that you're going to love it. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use code Alley at checkout for a discount. That's go to ranchers.com. Code Alley. Dallas, thanks so much for joining us. I appreciate you having me. This is great. Yeah, so many people out there love The Chosen. A lot of people have questions for you about The Chosen.

Let's first back up before even you started this series. I know a lot of people probably know your story, but if you could just give us a little summary of how you got into the Christian media biz. Well, my father is Jerry Jenkins. He wrote the Left Behind books. And so those were huge, you know, they're still pretty big. But back in the day, about 25 years ago, they were pretty huge. And there was a movie being developed based on the first Left Behind book when I was in college.

And I had been wanting to get into film in some way. I remember seeing the movie One Flew of the Cuckoo's Nest when I was in high school. And that movie changed my life. I was like, whatever that is, I want to do that. What was it about that movie? Well, there was a scene. I was watching it in my home. It was on TV.

And there's a scene where Jack Nicholson's character is not allowed. to watch TV. He wanted to watch the World Series game. And Nurse Ratchet says you can't watch it. So he goes and sits in front of a television and pretends, he starts broadcasting a fake World Series game. Wow. And the other inmates start listening to him and getting excited.

And he starts yelling and talking about this. Home run just hit. And he's like a broadcaster. And they start cheering. And I'm literally just sitting there. There's like tears streaming down my face. And I am so excited. And I'm like, I want to do that.

I want to inspire in people the kind of reaction that I'm having. That's kind of emotional response to something. And so that's when I was like, and what's funny is I think at the time I was wanting to be a sports broadcaster. So I think that had something to do with it too, the scene. So I wanted to make movies. And so my thought was, as a young guy growing up, I grew up in the faith and as a Christian, but I love TV and movies, but there wasn't anything.

that represented my faith that I liked as much as the normal TV and movies that I would watch. If there was a Christian movie that came out, it wasn't any good. So I didn't know what kind of movies I necessarily wanted to make, but I knew I wanted to get into that in some way.

And I thought, it'd be good to represent my stories in some way, stories of faith. And I remember there was a moment in, I think it was around 2007 or so. I was mowing the lawn. and I felt like God just like put it really strongly on my heart because I was kind of bad-mouthing slash apologizing for faith-based films. Like, I don't really want to do that because they're so bad.

And God was like, my people deserve good stuff too. You know, so why don't you just make it better? Instead of just talking about how bad it is. Yeah, exactly. And so or instead of, I think sometimes we get into this perspective of trying to be cool. Yeah. You know, like, well, I don't want to be, like, even when you use the term Christian media, I was like, my instinct was like, well, I wouldn't call it Christian media. Just do media and it happens to have faith in it.

And sometimes I get, you get defensive of that. And I'm trying to get rid of that and just go, look, I'm doing a show called The Chosen. It's about Jesus by definition. That's Christian. So I got more comfortable with it. But long story short, I just really, I think it was about 15 years ago where I thought, look, I have something, I think, I think, I think, unique to say that most filmmakers are looking for something unique to say. And even studios are looking for filmmakers who have unique things to say. And I thought, if I'm just trying to be a normal

filmmaker, you know, there's many people who can do that. What is it that I, what is unique about what I have to say or what I can bring to the table or what God may want me to share? And so I embrace that. I became okay with that. All right. I want to tell stories that reflect God's God. Yeah. And that's when I shifted probably, again, about 15 years ago to start really focusing on stories that were uniquely about the relationship God wants to have with humanity.

It is interesting that a lot of Christians, I mean, myself included sometimes, on the one hand, you complain about secular media and the values that it's promoting and how. it's promoting degeneracy and all of that. But at the same time, then you complain about the Christian media or however you want to describe it. That's, it might be promoting the values that you like, but it's not entertaining or you think it's lame or the acting is bad or something like that. And so you kind of decided, you know what, I'm not going to sit in either camp.

God has given me these talents. I'm going to drive forward to make good and excellent content that also happens to be glorifying to the Lord. Yeah. And not be ashamed of that on any level. And I found that people that rejected stories of faith were rejecting more the quality than they were necessarily the story. There are plenty of people who aren't believers who will watch a movie or TV show that comes from a faith perspective or is about a faith story if it's compelling. I mean, I watched tons of stuff that comes from faith backgrounds or non-faith backgrounds that I don't necessarily share,

but I still am interested in the story. Sure. And we found that with The Chosen. I mean, there are tons of, I mean, heck, over half of our cast and crew aren't believers. And they love the show. They were attracted to be part of the show. We have tons of viewers who aren't,

who don't necessarily believe Jesus was the son of God, but know the stories and love the historical context of it and love the show because they think it's a compelling show. So I just decided, look, trying to water it down, trying to please multiple audiences. Like God took all of that away from me a few years ago when I had a huge career failure. So I've kind of let all that go and just decided to focus on just trying to tell the best story that I can.

Yeah. You've directed several films, but The Chosen is different. The Chosen, like you said, is different in that it's not just appealing to faith-based audiences, even though it is a faith-based show, but its reach is really wide. Were you at all surprised by that when you saw the huge responsibility? that it got even from the beginning back in, you know, I think it was 2017 that it started, right? I mean, was that a little surprising to you? I have stopped being surprised or not surprised by success or failure.

You know, it was in 2017 that my feature film came out that completely bombed at the box office. And it had big expectations and I had big expectations and hopes and I was trying to be affirmed by Hollywood. it was my big opportunity to have a movie that came out in multiple theaters. And then when it bombed, I had this moment. I was home alone with my wife crying and shocked. And in just a couple hours, I went from being a director with a very bright future to being a director with no future. Because all these big Hollywood studios that had worked with me on this movie,

when it bombed, they were like, all right, all our plans to do more movies with you, those are no longer in effect, you know, again. So when you say it bombed, it just not enough people saw it in the first weekend, it was, you know, below estimates. Below their lowest estimates, yes. Okay. And the movie had gotten, it was a movie called The Resurrection to Gavin Stone. And it had tested really well and the studios behind it were really positive. And these are some pretty big Hollywood companies.

And because it had tested so well and they were so optimistic about it, they were like, we're going to do multiple movies with you. Yeah. In the future. So you're feeling really good. Oh, yeah. And then on Friday afternoon, the numbers start coming in from the East Coast. Yeah. And within a couple hours, it's a math equation.

You can tell how the movie's going to do that weekend, how it's going to do. Like election night or something. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And it just totally failed. And that must have been just such a difficult feeling to go through. Not only did you put all that effort in, but you have voices in your head telling you, I mean, literal voices, people, saying this is going to be a huge success and we'll really, be kind of the springboard for you. I can't imagine the disappointment. I was, yeah, I mean,

I was devastated. And my wife and I were home alone. It was a Friday afternoon and just so confused because the things that had happened to lead up to that point had felt so God-led. Like there were so many doors that had opened surprisingly. And again, getting some of these big companies that normally would never do a faith-based project, but really were interested in it and excited about it. And then it totally bombs. And you're thinking, well, this, this, this doesn't make sense because God, God's not the author of failure. So clearly, I guess I was wrong. He wasn't behind this. I thought he was behind this, but I guess he wasn't. And when I was home alone with my wife, there was this moment where we were in different rooms. And she came into the kitchen

where I was getting somebody to eat. And she says, I feel like God is placing on my heart really clearly, like as clearly as if he was saying it out loud, read the story of the feeding of the 5,000 in the Bible when Jesus had been preaching for. several days and the crowd was starving and a boy brings five loaves and two fish and he multiplies the loaves and fish and feeds five thousand people. And so we didn't know why we were supposed to read that story and what it meant. So we're reading it and trying to glean something from it. And one thing we noticed was that the reason that the people were so hungry was Jesus's fault. He's the one who'd been talking for so long. He brought them to that place of hunger

where the only thing left to satisfy it was a miracle. So we thought, oh, okay, maybe God is behind this and he's bringing us to this place of desperation and now a miracle's coming. You know, maybe the box office numbers will magically turn around this weekend and we're going to be able to have this great story to tell. And that didn't happen.

In fact, that night the numbers got even a little worse. It was almost like God was saying, that's not the lesson that I have for you in the story. But we didn't know. We were just trying to figure out, what is it that we're trying to learn, you know, that we need to learn from this. And that night, at 4 o'clock in the morning,

I'm writing a memo, a 15-page memo about everything that went wrong and what I need to learn from it and what the mistakes I made and why this was my fault and trying to solve the issue so that this doesn't happen again. And just a message pops up on my computer through Facebook from someone I've never met, just a Facebook friend didn't even say hi. All he said was, remember, it's not your job to feed the 5,000. It's only to provide the loads and fish. Wow.

And I'm like, I typed back, I'm like, what are you doing up at 4 in the morning? That was my first question. And he's like, well, I'm on the other side of the world. I'm in Romania. I'm visiting my brother. I said, do you mind me asking why you said that? And he goes, oh, that wasn't me. God told me to tell that to you.

And in that moment, my life changed because, A, I felt more than ever like God was present and in this and watching and had, you know, had. my interests in mind, you know, and I felt, I felt more cared for in that moment than ever because it was like he was saying, yeah, this movie failed, but I've got something for you in it. And then also that concept, this is the answer to your question. I know it's a long way to get to it. But you're asking if I was surprised. In that moment, in my early 40s, for the first time in my life, I stopped caring about the results for the first time.

I was someone who felt responsible for results. I felt responsible for success or failure, even if it was something that was God breathed or God inspired. And so for the first time, I was like, okay, all right, I'm going to get on this plan of the five loaves and two fish that I provide need to be good and healthy so that if God chooses to multiply them, they can feed people. But if not, that's up to him.

The results aren't up to me anymore. the success or failure isn't up to me. How it's used or not use is not up to me. When I present my five loaves and two fish to God and he deems them worthy, there were transactions over. And I really embraced that. And it became a superpower in many ways. I stopped thinking about goals and trying to achieve and numbers and success.

And I just literally focused on what's in front of me and what can I do. And if I'm in God's will, if I feel like what I'm doing is, is right and what he wants. And that's all I'm focused on. And so am I surprised that the show ended up blowing up based on a short film that I did for my church? Like it was several months later after my big failure. I had this script for a short film about the birth of Christ and perspective of the shepherds

that I had written and put on the shelf because I was doing this big movie. And I said to my church, do we want to do this? And they said, yes. That's when I got the idea for the show. and but I didn't think the show was going to get made because, you know, there's not people lining up around the block to do a Jesus show. And I was coming off of a career failure. So this short film ended up going out on social media, crowdfunded $10 million for season one of the Chosen. It shattered the all-time crowdfunding record.

All these things I thought were ridiculous. Yeah. But I was on the Loaves and Fish's plant. Right. So I'm like, you know what? It's not my job to worry about that. So I'm not surprised because God can do anything. but I wouldn't have been surprised if it would have failed as well

for whatever you want to consider failure. But if nothing would have happened from the chosen, I wouldn't have been surprised by that either. So I'm just on this, I'm just making loaves and fish. The blank screen for season four, the scripts that I'm writing now, doesn't care about how successful the show's been.

I still have to try to write a show that is good and honoring. And so, again, I know that's a really long answer to your question, but... That's good. There's a lot of good lessons in there. It's funny because my dad tells me the same thing. Because just like in any work that someone does, that a Christian does, there are times that you feel like, is it really making an impact? Am I really doing the right thing? Or I messed up and saying that and that wasn't exactly what I wanted to say or maybe I'm not having the effect that I want. And my dad always just says fishes and loaves. Oh, really?

Yes. That's the same thing that my dad tells me. Even though that passage of scripture is historically true, it's not primarily a metaphor. The principle is there. The principle is there is that God is going to multiply how he wants to multiply. And as you said, the point is not the result. The point is the obedience. The point is that God is going to get glory through our obedience, whether it ends in what we call failure or what we call success.

So I'm appreciative of your long answer. There's a lot of good lessons in that. Yeah. And the thing is, it would have been ridiculous for the boy who provided the loaves and fish to go home to his parents and say, I fed 5,000 people today. Right. Isn't that amazing? Of course not. That's ridiculous.

And that's how I talk about The Chosen. People like, wow, are you, you know, are you proud of what the Chosen has done? I'm like, I'm not responsible for 100 million people around the world watching the show. Like that, you know, I feel like my loaves and fish are pretty good. I'm proud of that, but the multiplication is really not up to me. And so, yeah, that metaphor, what's interesting about the story, too, is that God could have, just could have just multiplied fish and loaves from scratch. Like, he could have just waved his hand and all that fish and loaves could have just come from nothing. But he does want us to participate.

He does use us. And then when it came time to distribute it, he had the disciples go hand out all the loaves and fish. Yeah. I mean, he does all the things that we don't need him to do, he wants us to do. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality.

We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. And that's something really we see throughout scripture that I've noticed that God is a God of processes. He could really do anything automatically. He didn't need, you know, Israel to wander through the wilderness for 40 years.

have just said, here's the promised land. I got those enemies out. You're good to go. And yet we constantly see him sanctifying and bringing them through challenges and really putting them at a position to where they have to depend on him. And we just have to believe that all of that, all of those processes are for God's glory, even when we don't see it. Yeah. Like the parting of the Red Sea, he still said, I need you to strike your staff on the rock. Like there's always something that he asks us to do to kind of unlock this what's bigger. It's a fascinating process. Yeah.

And it's not that he needs our effort. Right. Of course not. Yeah. Effort. It's just that somehow he gets glory out of it. I imagine that it is a huge undertaking. And you kind of just mentioned to this when you're thinking, okay, you're not responsible for the millions of people watching this.

But I still imagine, as you are trying to create a series, The Chosen, that reflects the life of Christ, that is as biblically and historically, culturally accurate as possible, while still having to take creative. license, for example, like Matthew, you depict him as someone who's on the spectrum. We don't see that in the Bible. And so how do you approach that huge task of trying to stay as accurate and grounded as possible while also being creative and creating a series that people really want to watch? Yeah. Well, what's interesting is I would say probably 95% of the content of the show is directly from Scripture. People call it a Bible show. They'll call it a Jesus show. I'm okay with that, but I'll say, this is actually, I mean, the Bible is for sure the primary source of truth and inspiration for the show, but there's a ton of content that isn't actually directly from scriptures. So to your question, it's a dangerous proposition. You know, you're walking a fine line, especially as someone like myself who loves the Bible. And I know that people who watch it, the majority of people who watch it are going to be wanting us to remain faithful to the scriptures as much as possible. We operate from this question. Is this plausible? whatever we write that it didn't come from scripture, is this plausible culturally, historically,

and does it fit within the character and intentions of Jesus in the Gospels, even if it's not directly from them, or even if we don't know if it's fact or not? So, for example, Matthew being on the spectrum. Is that plausible? I think so. Why? Well, this is a good example of how we approach the show in general. We start with what we know from Scripture.

So we know that Matthew was a tax collector. That means he was a numbers guy. We know he's a facts guy. The first chapter of his book is a genealogy divided into three sections of 14 names apiece. We know that he chose a profession that made him an outcast, hated by the Jews for betraying his people by being a tax collector and working for the Romans, disrespected by the Romans for being Jewish. All of these things, we're writing them down on a big piece of paper as we're formulated. the character of Matthew.

And I'm someone who's very familiar with the autism world. I have autism and my family. I've done a lot of work in the special needs community. So I know autism very closely. And I'm like, these are traits of Asperger's. These are traits of numbers, facts, socially outcast,

but maybe comfortable with that because maybe you prefer to be a little bit alone. And we thought, what if Matthew, what if we could have, what if we could portray him as being on the spectrum? Think of how huge, that is. Think of how relatable that could be for people. Taking the stories from 2,000 years ago and actually putting them into a modern context for the viewer could be really powerful and relatable.

Now, doing something just to be relatable, that could be a problem. We're not trying to take the gospel. All right, we're going to change it. We're going to make it more. We're going to water it down so that people get it. We're going to do something. We're going to try to have more diversity just to be politically correct. Just try to appeal as many people as possible. That would be a problem. That would be a problem. But this is plausible. If it's plausible and it happens to allow the viewer to connect even more deeply to the people and see Jesus through the eyes of people who actually followed him, that can be really impactful. So that's how we approach all of these stories that you see in the show. Some come directly from scripture. Some come from our imagination. But I think all of it

comes through this filter of plausibility based on a desire to be faithful to the scriptures and to the character and intentions of Jesus and the Gospels. It's not easy. It's on dangerous ground. We get a lot of criticism, obviously, from people who don't want to see anything that's not from Scripture. But we do believe that it's a, we're not the Bible. We're not pretending to be the Bible.

We're not a replacement for Scripture. We never claim to be. We're not adding to Scripture because Scripture is Scripture. That's the Bible. Your Bible hasn't changed since the Chosen came out. We're not adding to it. This is a show about First Century Galilee using the Bible as our. primary source. As your guide. Right. Has there been any criticism with every popular project,

there's going to be criticism. It's just inevitable. Has there been any criticism that has made you go, hmm, actually, that might be a good point. Or it has like caused you to either change direction or at least, I don't know, think a little bit more deeply about a choice that the series made. I would say not a lot. And here's why. Not because I'm arrogant and don't accept criticism. It's because we do so much of that work on the front end. Yeah. So when we do something in the show that someone is bothered by, sometimes they'll even say, boy, you know, you need to change that.

Or why aren't you apologizing for that? We're offended, you know. And I'll say, we thought through all this deeply on the front end. I mean, I have Bible consultants that I work with. I go through a lot of research, a lot of prayer, a lot of, we take this very, very seriously. So by the time we've released the show, it's very unlikely that someone's going to point out something that we haven't thought of and considered. Now, there's been stuff that we missed, you know, whether it's some sort of cultural fact, some historical fact that maybe we got wrong, you know, inadvertently or, you know, maybe slip through the cracks. But when it comes to our biblical approach or our approach to theology and whatnot, it's unlikely that a YouTube comment is going to suddenly,

settle 2,000 years of debate about the theology of God versus man. And, you know, the most controversial thing that we, that we've done to date was there was about 10 seconds of Jesus. He was preparing for the big sermon on the Mount. And he's kind of working out some of the things in his head of what he wants to say. And he's working on the turn of phrase. It's kind of like, it's like sermon prep. And there were some people who just were so offended that God, Jesus, would ever need to prepare or that he would struggle to come up with the right words or anything like that. And I understand what they're saying, but they would be like, Jesus is God. He would never, never struggle, you know, to think of anything.

And then you look at a verse like in Philippians where it says that Jesus did not account, Jesus did not count equality with God as something to be grasped, but he actually gave up. A lot of his, the things that he has when he's sitting at the right hand of the father, he didn't have when he was on earth. And so there's a spectrum of what Jesus may have known or not. not known how God was he, how man was he. You know, there's a term called the hypostatic union where he was both fully God and fully man.

Well, this has been debated and discussed for thousands of years. It's vexed scholars the world over. People who love the Bible can disagree on this issue. And yet a YouTube commenter can say, no, I know it and you're wrong and I'm going to settle this debate. So I'm using that as an example of the kind of thing where the decision to do that on my part was made and thought through deeply before we brought it to the world. So their comment isn't going to necessarily make me go, oh, I never thought of that. Let me change my mind.

Right. And you're not claiming that those things are not debatable. Right. And so because, as you said, I mean, Jesus is fully God and fully man. A lot of those things of how that manifested itself, what weaknesses he did have as far as even just the weakness of hunger or the weakness of thirst, like how much did that really have an effect on his life and on his mind? And so I think it just goes back to kind of what you were saying that is it plausible, not is it in scripture? Or is it, yeah, and I even said, I'm not willing to say that our portrayal in that moment was fact. I don't know that, but neither do you. So let's explore it together. You shouldn't be relying on me or the show for your entire theological interpretation of who God is. You should be in a good church. You should be reading the

scriptures, that's where, this show is a supplement. This show is a, is like, as you just mentioned, it's, it's what we believe, a plausible attempt to capture the people of first century, Galilee. But I think it's, I think it's good, healthy discussions. Yeah. I would have thought that you would say that the most controversial thing or the thing that caused the most criticism was when Jesus said, I am the law of Moses. And people interpreted that as quoting the book of Mormon, which I know that you've already answered this. It was not a direct, quote from the Book of Mormon, not also a direct quote from scripture. So I would have thought that that was the thing that caused the most...

Well, that episode hasn't come out yet. That was in the trailer. Oh, okay. I must have missed to that part. Well, no, no. I mean, it was in the trailer. And so, yes, I would say, you're right, that became one of the most controversial things. Yeah, because...

So there's a moment in episode three, which is coming up this Sunday night, actually. actually. We have our big live stream on Christmas, December 25th. We have our big episode three live stream. And that'll give everyone the chance to see the scene that has the quote that vexed so many people. So one of the Pharisees is really upset with Jesus for claiming to be the Messiah in his own hometown. And they're saying you're a false prophet. And because you're a false prophet, we have no choice but to follow the law of Moses. which of course says you put to death false prophets. And Jesus steps up to him and says,

I am the law of Moses. And yes, their rumor got spread that that's a quote from the Book of Mormon. I've never actually read the Book of Mormon. So I, you know, even if it had been a quote, I wouldn't have known it.

And it's not even a direct quote anyway. The quote, I think from the Book of Mormon is like, I am the law and the life or something. Yeah, yeah. So all that to say, yes, there were some major criticism

and controversy came about from that. quote. And what's interesting about it is that I think sometimes people make assumptions even about what you mean from something. So, for example, Jesus in that scene, I do believe it's plausible for him to claim, I'm the law of Moses. Many people, many scholars would consider Jesus to be the living, breathing Torah, the living word, as they say, that even though he has fulfilled the law, that doesn't mean the law is done. And of course, we believe he and the father co-authored the law. So all of those things are, again, theological discussions worthy of debate.

That said, what he is doing in that moment is he is asserting authority. So the Pharisee is saying, the law of Moses is our authority. And he's going, I'm your authority. Yeah. So it's like if someone comes to the, like let's say a big authority figure comes to someone's house and the person living in the house says, hey, you know what, I'm going to call the police. And the person goes, well, I am the police.

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean they're literally a police officer, but they're saying, I'm the authority. Whatever you see is your authority, that's me. That's what Jesus is asserting in that scene. And in the context of the full scene, which you can see in episode three, is it's probably the most blatant declaration in the whole show of Jesus as God, Jesus as Son of God, Jesus as the Savior. Yeah.

So I kind of chuckled to myself going a lot of the, the critics of this moment are actually, if they saw the whole scene or seeing it's probably the most blatant depiction of Jesus as the authority that will ever show. So, but you bring up a great example, which is that when we're doing 56 episodes of this show, that's going to be about 50 hours of television, portraying Jesus, the most famous and influential man in history, there's going to be moments that everyone has a disagreement with. Even as someone like myself who loves God's word, the most staunch practicing evangelical will at some point in this show see something that they don't fully agree with. The hope is that you have a little bit of grace and go, you know,

there's things on which we can disagree. It doesn't mean that you're a heretic. It doesn't mean that you're trying to lead people away from the authentic Jesus. It means that there's a lot of things that we don't fully know and understand. Let's wrestle with them. The number one question that I got from my audience, as you can probably guess, was about Mormonism and about some recent comments that you made you clarified those comments you said you know there are some LDS people that I know we love the same Jesus and then you kind of clarified that to say not that LDS and evangelical Christians have the same theology but that the ones you know love the same Jesus I mean as you know some people have a problem with that Mormonism does not believe

that Jesus is God believes that Jesus is a son of God and became like God was actually a brother of Satan. So it's not the same Jesus. It's not the same God at all. And the differences are extremely fundamental. I would say much more than, you know, Catholicism or things like that. And so, you know, some people were a little concerned about that. Well, out of context, you take the phrase that I said, where I said, we love the same Jesus. And they said, okay, Dallas is saying that all Mormons, all LDS folks love the same Jesus as evangelicals. Now, I'm not going to speak for the LDS Church, but what I was saying, and I think I, I think I, I think my wording was sloppy. I think that I could have clarified a little bit better.

I do have some LDS friends. Not all, I have, I have LDS friends who I would say don't necessarily love the same Jesus that I do. I do have some that we have, I have spent hundreds of hours with, I have prayed with, I have wept with, I have gone to Israel with. I have spent hundreds of hours of talking. And I would say that those friends of mine that I know that I've spent tons of time with, when we're talking particularly about Jesus of Nazareth, particularly the Jesus of the Gospels, it is the same Jesus. They love, like the show that like the Jesus that I'm portraying in the show, the Jesus that we read about in the scriptures, I firmly believe that, you know, in my deep conversations with them, that when we're talking about Jesus of Nazareth, we're talking about the same one. Now, But they may have... But not John 1, that the word was God. That is not what Mormons believe.

Well, that may not be the official statement of the LDS church, but I would say that I know some LDS folks who would say, I believe in John, John, Chapter 1. Now, that may put them in misalignment with their church. I don't know. I don't get into the details of whether or not what their church thinks of it. I'm just saying, I have, you know, I've literally asked those very questions to some of my friends and I've gone, well, what do you think of? John chapter one, I am in the beginning was the word, and the word was God, and the word was with God.

They go, I believe that. I go, well, it seems to contradict this piece. And they go, well, that piece might have been misinterpreted by some people. So I'm just saying, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not disagreeing with you. I would say, if you said to me, does the LDS church as a whole, and does the evangelical world as a whole share the same fundamental theological beliefs about Jesus? I would say, no. But I would say even within the evangelical world, there are evangelicals who I would say, don't necessarily know Jesus as the Bible is portraying, because as, as, as, as, as, as, is, is, is, is contending because I just don't believe in, uh, broad, broadly stating about any one people group, this is what they all believe and this is what they all know. Uh, I wouldn't say that

about any particular people group. I've, I've, I've known evangelicals, I've sat next to evangelicals and churches who, I would say, yeah, we're going to the same church, but we don't necessarily understand or believe the same things. So I'm acknowledging that in the interview that I did several years ago, that my wording could have been sloppy, so I wanted to make sure it didn't sound like I'm speaking for an entire people group or speaking about an entire people group. I would just say that there are, I think all of us, I think all of us have experiences, if you're a conservative, if you're a Christian, if you're an evangelical, if you're a Catholic, we've all experienced being painted with a broad brush based on the, the name of our tribe that we're in. And I've seen it happen multiple times

that because I'm part of a particular label that there's an assumption made about that I must accept or believe everything about that's typically associated with that label. I would say that there's oftentimes exceptions. And I would say that there can be exceptions in this case. And again, I'm not saying that we all agree with the same thing and that we all have the same beliefs about everything.

But I would say that I was speaking about specific people in that case. Yeah. And I would just encourage people go back and listen to Thursday's episode. We talked to a woman who spent 30 years in the Mormon church and then became a Christian. And it's not saying that everyone with a label believes the same things, but it is looking at particular doctrines and just making sure that people know the true gospel, what is a works-based religion versus what is by grace through faith and that is what Christianity is founded upon. Let me say, if you don't mind, one more clarifier too. I have spoken with, I would say it's a

conservative estimate to say dozens, like personal conversations with dozens of people from the LDS faith who have said to me, because of the chosen, I am finding myself closer to Jesus and closer to grace than I ever have in my entire life, that I am finding myself falling more in love with Jesus than the church. And that to me is- And that would be a big shift for Mormons who really see church, the LDS church as the authority. So that's- I mean, I know people who, for whom their church, LDS or Catholic, or any kind of formal religion, is in many, almost like God, is almost like the thing that they worship, the thing that is their connection to God. And as an evangelical, I passionately believe that you don't need anything formal or anything to connect you to God,

that you can have a direct relationship with Jesus. And I have talked to dozens personally myself and heard from hundreds online or even thousands of people who have said, I am finding myself loving Jesus more and finding a personal relationship with Jesus, more so than my church, more so than anything formal, anything, any person or thing as a connection that I'm actually getting direct access to Jesus because of this. And so even if by some chance I disagree with a viewer about someone else's faith, I can tell you that the chosen itself, the content of the chosen itself, I'm responsible for. It's not influenced by any religion.

It's not influenced by any church, any person. It comes from a personal belief in Jesus as the son of God, as the ultimate authority as God. And if that can actually have an influence and an impact on people who maybe have in the past not been able to have a personal relationship because of whether it's a lack of faith or sometimes it's because of the idolatry of their own church, the idolatry of their own habits, the idolatry of their own vices, but you can actually get past all of that. Yeah, and I just want my listeners and my viewers to know to make clear that Mormonism is not a denomination of Christianity, that there are fundamental differences. Go back and listen to Thursday's episode. But the reason why I am not concerned with some people say, well, I know there are Mormons who work with the company that distribute. The reason why that doesn't, to me, mean that someone should not watch the chosen is because from what I've seen, Mormon theology is not. influencing the chosen. It is scripture. And so there are lots of different people of lots of

different faiths that we work with that aren't necessarily influencing or not work. There are people, that would be like saying that you shouldn't listen to relatable because Blaze TV distributes it. And the people who run Blaze TV might have, you know, different beliefs than I do. And so that is not like- Including LDS. Yeah. But I didn't want, but I did want to just kind of give us the opportunity to kind of talk about that and here you clarify it because I know a lot of people, you know, did have questions. Yeah, absolutely. And I think those are healthy questions. And I would just say, like you just said, even if we end up disagreeing on some of these issues, I don't believe there's a disagreement about the content of the show. And I'm going to, I've said from the beginning, the show speaks for

itself. And I am a flawed, sinful human being. And regardless of our conversation about, LDS folks. There's plenty of other things about me or something that I, things that I've done, things that I still do, whatever that we may disagree about or that I struggle with. Like, do not look at the show as the Bible. Do not look at me as God. Do not look at Jonathan Rumi, who plays Jesus as Jesus. We are flawed human beings unlike the Bible. The Bible is perfect. The Bible is what you are looking to as your authority. This is a show that's made by a flawed person. and I'm not claiming direct scriptural authority or inspiration from God. I'm doing my best to try to give a plausible account of the truth and intentions of Jesus and the Gospels.

I think we have a short clip of one of the, is it one of the upcoming episodes? So this is episode two, which I would have, I think, aired last night. Yes, yes. This is a scene with Little James, who's one of the disciples, who is played by Jordan Walker Ross, who has sort of ribal palsy, Miles ribal palsy and scoliosis. And when I decided to cast him as one of the disciples, I remember thinking, oh boy, speaking of theological implications and debates and all that, we're going to have to tackle this one of why doesn't God heal everybody? Because we can look around and see that, you know, Jesus while he was here on earth, probably we don't see too many,

we don't see any examples in the Gospels of him not healing someone. So that may, you know, that I know some people had questions when they watched the scene that we're about to show. of one of his own disciples saying, hey, you're sending us out two by two to go heal, and I'm not healed. Yeah. Why is that? Yeah.

Okay. Let's go ahead and play that. I wanted to ask you a question. Please? You're sending us out with the ability to heal the second lane. Yes, that is what you said. Yes. So you're telling me that I have the ability to heal,

difficult to imagine, with my condition, which you haven't healed. Do you want? to be healed? Of course, if that's possible. I think you've seen enough to know it's possible. So this is an episode that's playing right before Christmas, and Christmas is a beautiful time of year, but for a lot of people, it's a difficult time of year, whether they have been through tough experiences surrounding Christmas or whether they're dealing with some kind of chronic illness or

trial right now. And they're asking this very question. They're asking, well, why won't God fix it? I know that he can. He's good. He loves me. He's powerful. And yet he's not healing me. He's not healing my loved one. He's not fixing it. What is the message of hope to those people going through that right now? Well, yeah, in the scene in episode two, Jesus says, yeah, it's a good story. When I do miracles, you know, that's a good story. But when you think about it, sometimes even we as human beings, even when we experience a miracle or a great joy or some sort of wonderful resolution to a that we face on earth. Even then, sometimes we forget it. Sometimes it doesn't stick. Sometimes we reject God even after that takes place. Sometimes the best story and sometimes the best

example of God's faithfulness is in the midst of pain and struggle. When we can still trust God, that is oftentimes what allows us to have the most impact on people because there are so many people in this world who don't necessarily believe in who are hurting and we can say, you know what? God hurts sometimes too. Jesus experienced suffering, pain. He didn't promise that he would alleviate all suffering and pain. If anything, he promised that we would experience a lot of it on this earth. The book of James talks about, there's a verse that says,

considerate joy when you experience trials of many kinds because the testing of your faith produces endurance. And it's similar to, you know, working out. You know, like when you, the process of working out oftentimes means lifting things that weren't meant to be lifted and causing your body, pushing your body past what you think it might be capable of and that produces strength. And so during this holiday season, with sometimes it's a, it almost puts a spotlight on your suffering because you're seeing everyone having so much joy and happiness and you're like, why aren't I experiencing that? And little James says later in that scene, he's like, I, I know it's. easy to say, I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. It's the song of David, you know, it's a psalm. But it doesn't make experiencing this any easier.

And it doesn't make me feel like less of a burden. And Jesus talks about how all of us have something, all of us, every single person that you see, successful or not successful, has something in their life that is a struggle or a hindrance or a pain point or some piece of suffering. And finding joy in the midst of suffering, it's not easy. but when you have a relationship with God and you have the ability to think on an eternal perspective as opposed to a temporary one,

when you can get on the joy program instead of the happiness program because happiness comes and goes, but that joy that can exist even in the midst of pain, it's difficult, and I don't think in one minute I'm going to be able to give the answer to how to find it beyond just all I can tell you is that I've never met anyone

who didn't end up finding a relationship with Jesus who didn't get more on that joy plan as opposed to the happiness plan. And I do think at the risk of sounding cheesy, that's what makes Christmas so awesome, is you go, when Jesus was born, this thing that we're celebrating, the Messiah, the savior of the universe actually came to a stable, to parents who were really poor and scared and in over their heads and just as freaked out as sometimes we get. And that's part of what the chosen is all about is trying to help you understand that the questions and the challenges and the the doubts that they faced 2,000 years ago are the same

that we face today. And hopefully you can see that the answer and the solution to those questions and doubts is the same today as it was 2,000 years ago. Yes, and amen. Well, thank you so much. Thanks for taking the time to talk to us. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks so much for having me on. I appreciate this. Merry Christmas. Yes. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase

narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.