Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 730 | When God Calls You to Tell Jokes | Guest: Joel Berry

Episode Date: December 27, 2022

Today we're joined by Joel Berry, managing editor of the Babylon Bee, to discuss why satire is more important than ever and his story of finding Christ after being raised in fundamentalist Christianity. We talk about the very joke (written by Joel) that got the Babylon Bee suspended on Twitter earlier this year and why the outlet chose not to take the joke down. Joel shares his story of what triggered his interest in politics and theology and ultimately what led him down the path of giving his life to the Lord. Then, we talk about why some people leave the church and become ex-vangelicals and why others, like Joel, stay. We talk about why conservative humor is only made better when leftists get mad, and we finish off with a rousing game of Would You Rather. --- Timecodes: (01:22) Babylon Bee kicked off Twitter (11:20) Why is Babylon Bee so successful? (16:13) Fundamentalist Christianity & introduction to politics and theology (27:55) Ex-vangelicals (41:57) Babylon Bee & conservative humor (49:30) Would You Rather --- Relevant Episodes: Ep 675 | Want to Topple the Elites? Mock Them | Guest: Seth Dillon https://apple.co/3iWiMKL Ep 529 | Why Bad Ideas Deserve to Be Mocked | Guest: Seth Dillon https://apple.co/3Wo0L6M --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE20' for 20% off the entire shop: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this Stee Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Why is satire more important than ever in our current culture? What is it like to be raised in a fundamentalist quasi-cult and then to become a born-again believer we're talking about all of this and more with the Babylon B's Joel Berry. We will end the conversation with a rousing game of would you rather, you know how much I love that. You guys are going to enjoy this conversation. It is deep, but it's also really fun. You'll laugh, you'll cry, all that good stuff. The episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to good ranchers.com slash alley.

That's good ranchers.com slash alley. Joel, thanks so much for joining us. Can you tell everyone who may not know who you are and what you do? Yeah, yeah. I'm the manager. editor of the Babylon B. Been working there for three years. I think I've heard of that. I've heard of it. I think so. But you know, I went to go, I went to look it out the other day because I heard of it

for the first time. I looked at the Twitter page and they hadn't tweeted since March. So I just figured that like the person who ran it died, but you're here. So what, I mean, what happened with that? Yeah, yeah, we're here. We're still posting jokes. Just not on Twitter. Not on Twitter.

Twitter decided that we were too much. We were unfit for their platform. And what was the deciding joke? Okay. So the deciding joke, I guess the context was Rachel Levine, who is the assistant HHS secretary, who was a transgender woman biological man, had just been named the woman of the year by USA Today. Yes. And we.

Yes, girl. That was just funny by itself, right? Yeah, I mean, woman of the year. Of all the women out there. It didn't even just say like transgender woman. Right. I'm pretty sure that it was the New York Times that actually said female. Okay. So this person who has literally sired children, female, all right. Yeah, incredible. And that's where our job gets hard because it's one of those cases where the real world is more absurd than anything we could come up with, right? So, you know, the site was a little quiet that day. It was feeling a little mischievous.

So I wrote this joke where we decided to make Rachel Levine our man of the year. We awarded Rachel Levine our man of the year award. And it's, you know, not so much of a joke as it is a kind of a mischievous, like a troll type thing. You know, we just, we threw it out there. And that's kind of what like a lot of the Babylon B jokes are. Yes. You're just presenting the absurdity of reality in a way that is either a little exaggerated or ironic to make a point. Yes.

Yeah, we're not pure comedy. And people get that confused that satire and comedy does overlap. lap, you know, comedy sometimes is satirical, satire is sometimes comedic, but satire is more to make a point. We have a message that we're trying to get across. And so, so yeah, we put that out there. I talk with Kyle Mann, who's the editor-in-chief of the B later that morning. He said, I think you're going to get us kicked off Twitter. And he was right. He was right. I think either that afternoon or the next morning, we had been suspended. And, you know, I think the initial plan was, you know, maybe we just delete the joke like Twitter wants us to and we'll go about it.

We'll turn it into another joke. You know, we'll make fun of it. Because for those who just don't know how the Twitter suspension process works, which they probably do because I've been suspended several times or the same thing, they typically make you, they say, okay, we will let you back on Twitter in 12 hours if you delete this tweet. So they hold you hostage. You can't send sometimes DMs. You can't really function on Twitter at all. you have to do what we say and then we will let you back on. I have been kicked off and sometimes I've deleted the tweets,

but last time it was for something like that. And I actually, I appealed it and they reversed the decision and they let me back on, which is very rare. But anyway, okay, so y'all decided not to do that. You decided not to delete the tweet. Yes.

And that's, I mean, God bless Seth Dillon, our owner. He, within a few hours, he publicly said, we are not going to delete this tweet. We refuse to admit that we've participated in hateful conduct. We're speaking the truth and we're not going to back down. We're going to censor ourselves and refuse to speak the truth. So he took that stand. And at that time, Elon Musk, who is kind of a fan of the bee,

he enjoys our content from time to time. And he was in Germany opening up a new Tesla factory. But then when he came back, I guess when he came back to the States, he opened up Twitter and found that the B hadn't posted. And he was kind of what's going on, found out that we were off of Twitter. And kind of the rest is history. You know, I don't know if that is the reason he bought Twitter. I think maybe it was a contributing factor.

Yeah. So as we're recording this, you guys are not back on Twitter, although this is coming out a little bit after. We're recording it. So just from what you know right now, as we are talking, do you think that there is a possibility that you'll get back on. Yes. Now that it's under new ownership. I think we will.

I think Elon right now has a very difficult job to try to keep the company together and to keep all the advertisers on board until he can get this $8 subscription service set up and get some revenue from there. You know, I don't know. Yeah. I think he's very much in our corner.

It just I think there's a lot of groundwork that has to be laid before he's ready to start letting everybody back on. Well, there's a lot of people that I want back on. Obviously, the Babylon B, just for the lulls. I want Megan Murphy to get back on. She was also kicked off for misgendering someone. And that was a while ago. That was like 2018.

Wow. So she deserves to be one of the first people to be put back on, I think. And then James Lindsay, that was like one of the saddest ones. I think he called a groomer a groomer. Yes. And I've tested that since then. I've called Groomers Groomers on Twitter. I'm still on there.

I haven't seen my friends getting kicked off for rightly gendering someone who is a man as a male. So that's a positive development. So I'm kind of hopeful for the B. Do you feel responsible since you were the one who wrote the joke? Listen, Joel, listen, you could be the savior, small ass, all of democracy and free speech in the West. Joel, because you wrote a joke that got you suspended from the B, which may have been the impetus to Elon Musk saying, I'm just going to buy this thing. We need to make jokes free again. And then he bought it and he, you know, says that he's a free speech absolutist. We're already seeing fact checks of the White House and they're taking down tweets that are really propaganda. I mean, here we are. This, I mean, this is a big deal. It could be because. you wrote a joke. Well, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's weird to see kind of God working through this whole stream of events. And seriously, honestly, I have to give credit to Seth, too, because I don't know

if I would have been bold enough to take that stand publicly and say that we're not going to delete this tweet, you know, I had some anxiety about that. You know, I thought, well, we're going to lose all our audience and, you know, what's going to happen. You know, maybe we should just turn it into another joke and get back on Twitter. But, yeah, you know, I'm really proud of him. And, and, uh, I, I, think it's just funny. God works in strange ways. Who knows what he's doing or how this is going to turn out. I mean, Elon might fail. We place a lot of hope in what he's doing now, but he's just a man. He's corruptible like anybody else. And, you know, ultimately we have to kind of trust God for the future and hope that, you know, I think the powerful thing about Twitter and a potentially

uncensored Twitter is, you know, our message. and our worldview is convincing. When people hear what we have to say, people are convinced. I remember the early days of YouTube before they really kind of put their finger down on conservative speech. I knew so many people

who would fall into these rabbit holes of Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson, and they would become conservatives because of what they were seeing and hearing online. And so I think the potential of getting back to that world where we're just free to speak. Yeah. In this arena of discourse, I think it could be very powerful.

That is exactly what YouTube, Google, previously Twitter, meta, so Instagram, Facebook, try to prevent because they call it radicalization. Yes. Because one person, someone might start following, I don't know, someone who is a little more moderate than me. And then, oh, that kind of sounds good. That's interesting. That debunked my prior belief or Prigger you or something like that. And then they say, oh, well, now I want to watch Ali Stucky. And all of a sudden, they're transphobes.

Yeah, all of a sudden they're transphobes and, you know, defending traditional marriage. That's exactly what YouTube doesn't want to happen. And I do think back to the days of like 2015. And that's really when I started. I started a blog. I started posting videos on Facebook when if something was popular, like if something was interesting to people, enough people wanted to hear it,

it very quickly went viral. Yeah. That, I can't even imagine something like that happening on Facebook nowadays. Never again. That just doesn't really happen. It's such a different landscape. And I didn't,

you don't realize it at the time, but that was like the wild, Wild West of the internet. And it was great. It was. I think there was almost, an entire generation of people who became conservative in that time. And the Babylon B is another example. We got in, thankfully, before, back when things could still go viral. It's hard to believe.

We were only started in early 2016, I think. It seems like we've been around so much longer than that, but the, you know, it used to be you could post something and within minutes you're getting, you know, 5,000 shares, 10,000 shares. And now our engagement's much, lower than that. And thankfully, our audience has stuck with us through that. Yeah. You know, I've noticed that too, just like on Instagram, I just, and this might bore people, but we're just looking at kind of like the landscape of how the internet has changed and how it really does impact shaping the culture. It impacts an entire generation. It really how people think. And like I look at my audience on Instagram that has grown by over 300,000 over the past two years.

And yet engagement. And it's not. just me, I see this on other people's post too, and it's not even just conservatives. Engagement has stayed the same. Like, that's a problem. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. So anyway, it's interesting how y'all have combated that, though, because you've also gotten a platform on Fox News. I have people come up to me all the time and say how much they love the Babylon B. I used to write articles for the Babylon B, and that was super fun. So what do you think is, like, has created the appetite for satire that you guys still, amidst censor? whatever, have been able to grow so much.

Like what button do you think that you all pressed? Yeah, well, I think that first of all, I remember when I first discovered the Babylon Beach as a fan, I started myself as a fan, suddenly finding comedy that understood the Christian world and didn't hate Christians, you know, could poke fun at Christians and people that I loved in a good-natured way. It was very refreshing. And I think a lot of people latched onto that. but then you know shortly after the bee was founded Trump was elected in 2016 so there was this huge

there was just this incredible cultural event and and I think a lot of the comedians a lot of people in pop culture they they were so horrified by Trump being elected that they they really felt that their duty as entertainers to be funny and to make people laugh had to take a back burner to what they saw as, you know, saving democracy and getting Trump out of office. So a lot of these entertainers, they weren't funny anymore. And not only that, but kind of this woke culture that was rising at the same time, there became a lot of things that you just couldn't joke about. So I think a lot of the Babylon B's success in those early years, we were just joking about things that people weren't allowed. No one else was, it was low-hanging fruit, really.

We're not professional comedians. You know, I used to be in sales. You know, I'm just a regular guy. A lot of us from regular people. And we were writing jokes that you wouldn't see anywhere else, kind of saying the things that everyone else is thinking, but is afraid to say out loud. And we were just throwing it out there. And so that was kind of our superpower early on. I think that we're seeing a pretty encouraging shift, though, in comedy. Even some of the great comedians, we see Dave Chappelle and Bill Maher, who are pushing back against this, this wokeness that has really kind of suppressed a lot of comedy. Yeah.

So hopefully we're kind of ushering in a new era there. I don't know. Yeah, I think so. I mean, once you make fun of something, you give other people permission to not just make fun of it, but actually think about it. I mean, that's why I don't do satire videos all that often. There's a lot of serious things that I like to talk about seriously. But there are some things that I can't as accurately and as compellingly, if I can make up a word,

talk about literally that I can do that when I do it satirically or ironically or even just sarcastically. Like it's another form of communication that sometimes I think is more effective than just explaining things to people. Yes. Like I mean, I say all the time that progressivism

dominates all the institutions that we have. But when you say it in an ironic way, as someone who is a liberal saying, even though we dominate the NIH, the WHO, the WHA, academia, and public school, but even after all of that, we're still the underdog.

Like, that is really what they think, though. That's literally what they think. I'm not even exaggerating. But kind of when you put it in that ironic way, it makes people think, oh, yeah, that kind of is absurd. So I think that's, like, the effectiveness that the Babylon Bee has.

Absolutely. And I think our side traditionally has never been very good at that. I think conservatives have earned this reputation over decades as we're the people that point to the charts and the graphs and say, we can't afford this and this budget and that budget. And so now conservatives and Christians too are kind of the cultural outsiders. America doesn't have kind of this Christian cultural consensus anymore.

And so we are kind of pushing back against the kind of the completely uniform worldview of every politician, every corporation, everybody you see on TV. and that's a really fun place to be. It's kind of fun to be, it's fun to be rebellious, you know, in a good way. Yeah, I think so too. Tell me how you got to the Babel and B. I've been there for three years.

Wow, it's changed so much. Yes. And grown so much, but you haven't always been a comedy writer, right? No. No, and I never saw myself as a writer or a comedy writer. I still don't know if I am. I'm just, I'm having a blast doing this, but I was in corporate supply chain sales for almost 10 years in the Midwest,

just a regular guy working a regular job. I grew up in kind of fundamentalist Christianity. Okay. Can you define, like what did that look like? Yeah. Because that's such a just a pejorative that is thrown around today. It is. Basically, it labels anyone who thinks that the word of God,

is inerrant and actually tries to stick to biblical standards on sexuality and gender, but that's not what you mean by fundamentalist. No, no, I was probably the most stereotypical stereotype of what you might consider an American Christian fundamentalist being. So, you know, if you imagine the homeschoolers, you know, women that wear gene dresses and have their hair up in a bun and, you know, very sheltered, wasn't allowed to listen to certain music. We didn't have a TV in our home, all this stuff.

What, is it a denomination? Like, is it Baptist or Fundamentalist Baptist? Kind of independent fundamental Baptist. Okay. I FB for short, I guess is the pejorative. No, I've heard of that. Yeah. And for a while, my parents even got involved in Bill Gothard, who was a later kind of

turned out to be a cult leader in a very, bad guy. Wow. But that was our homeschool curriculum that we, a lot of people, a lot of people in the audience aren't going to recognize, some people will recognize. No, I have because I have heard of the Duggers talk about it and how harmful it, how harmful it was. I hadn't heard about it until recent years when I heard kind of some of the Dugger children talk about like how really toxic this curriculum and the ideology was. This is really not Christianity. It really is. is a cult. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There's, there is no, I have no idea how I'm still a Christian. We can get into that later. I would love to, yeah. It's, but yeah, so that's, that was the world I came from.

And I think that was what was refreshing when I, when I read early Babylon B jokes, comedy writers who kind of got that world. But I, when I was 19 years old, I kind of, I kind of had this, I was always a bit of a disrespectful, sarcastic person. I always kind of looked at my world that way. too. I had this sense that I had to get out and figure out what life was and what the world was. So I joined the Marine Corps without telling my parents. I came home and said, hey, I joined the Marine Corps. I leave next month. Bye. Bye. How many siblings did you have? I was the oldest of six. Okay. Yeah. And so, and you were 19. Yeah. So at that point where they just kind of like, well, we have these other five kids to take care of. You're an adult, do what you want. Or were they really distressed? They were really

distressed, yeah. And they, you know, they came around eventually, but I think I'm really thankful that I did what I did, and I joined the military and I saw the world before I went straight from the kind of the Christian bubble into a, like a secular university. I sometimes think that maybe if I had done that, I would have deconstructed. I would have lost my faith. But I kind of did things backwards. I joined the military, saw the world, had jobs for a few years, and then did college after that. And I think my real coming to faith was overseas. I was in Fallujah from 2006 to 2007 and didn't go to church the entire year. We were patrolling every Sunday. So no church, no Christian influence, no Christian bubble. But God sustained me through that year in such a

a powerful and tangible and real way that I couldn't deny God existed. I was like, wow, this is real. I don't know if all this is that I grew up with. I don't know if that's all legit, but God is real. Jesus is real. And that was kind of how I really, I think, came to true faith while I was over there. Then I came back, I went to college. And I came back to the States with this incredible thankfulness for America, for all of the blessings that we took. take for granted. You know, the fact that we, we would be rolling down the main stretch of Fallujah, you know, craters all over the road from bombs that had gone off last week, you know, bullet holes peppering the houses. And in all that, you see kids walk into school, you know,

families trying to live their lives. And, and, you know, you hear an explosion, you know, two blocks away, you know, and the kids just walk into school like it's nothing. This is like the world that they're used to. So I came back thinking, like, how do we have it so good here? Like, how did all this happen? Like, I think what a lot of people that age don't realize is that the blessings of America didn't happen by accident. And it took a long time to get here. Yeah. Man, I think that is so true. Such a, such a misunderstanding that all the people who think, oh, Christianity should have nothing to do with America should have nothing to do with laws. I'm like, where do you think the idea of human rights? came from.

Like, how do you not look at other countries, realize that there is no even concept of human rights? Slavery still happens. Child brides are still taken. Sexual exploitation of women and children on a large and legal scale happen systemically in other countries that do not have the Western basis of human rights that is distinctly biblical. Yes. Like, it's hard for me to even understand, I guess because it's not being taught in schools anymore. It used to be, even from a secular perspective, that the Bible was the most important piece of literature,

if you wanted to call it that, the most important document and shape in the West. I don't think that's taught anymore. I think that young people are just really ignorant to that. Yeah, and it's, you know, I am. Hey, this is Steve Deast. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself.

On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this Steve Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.

I think I really once I realized that I became extremely passionate about protecting that. That was kind of my, when I really started thinking about politics more and worldview. Because it really is. The Bible and Christianity, it shaped everything, all the underlying assumptions that we have about, you know, women's rights, human rights, everything came from that. And kids are not just being not taught that. They're being very intentionally deprogrammed to be opposed to that. And this has been a long process over many decades, very intentional. And it's something that definitely, we hear a lot about Christian nationalism right now. Yeah. You know, and, and what you hear a lot from the left or from

people who oppose Christian nationalism, that we're just, we are, we are lusting after power. We want political power. It's like, no, I want people to have rights. You know, I, I want, I, I, I don't know if I'd call myself a Christian nationalism, because I don't even know what that means, but I, I, my political views are what they are because I love people, because I care about people, and I want, I want my kids and their kids to be free, you know. There's this assumption on the other side that we on the right believe what we believe because we don't care about others. We're not empathetic.

Yeah, we want control. We want control. We want power. And that's not true at all. You know, we believe what we believe because we love people. And somehow that message gets lost out there, I think. Yeah. So tell me a little bit more.

I do want to talk more about kind of like the Christian nationalism craziness, boogey man, is what I would call it, out there and what exactly you think about that. But I want to hear a little bit more about your story. You come back to America. You're so grateful for how all this happened, realize it's not accidental. Yes. And I guess that made you think a little bit more about your theology and about your faith. Yes, it absolutely did.

I wouldn't say that I deconstructed, because that's another word that just, who knows what it means, people mean different things by it. But I did have to kind of shed a lot of, you know, what I was brought up in. You know, I rediscovered Jesus through the Gospels, just reading the Gospels. And, you know, I told God early on, I said, I don't know what you want me to do, but I want to serve you with my life. you know, I want to give my life to you, whether that's being a missionary, you know, being a pastor, whatever. He said, no, he will write jokes. That came later.

And here I am writing jokes and making memes. But so me and, me and a close friend of mine were involved in a church plant, you know, very passionate about, you know, we're kind of, we, some people in the audience might be familiar with the young, restless, and reformed movement where we're young Christians, we're rediscovering sound theology. but it was still kind of cool and hip and, you know. Yeah, it came with the advent of like the podcast, I think. Yes, yes.

Because that's when I started. I was late high school, early college, around like 2010, 2011. So like I would say, I don't know if that's the end of the young restless reform, but kind of. I mean, the, you know, the Matt Chandler and, I mean, a lot, a lot of more teachers than that. but I started listening to them going on walks and I was in high school and college. And it just blew my mind because, I mean, I was raised Southern Baptist, not fundamentalist at all. But I just didn't really have any idea of the theology and the thinking and the intellectualism that was under just the altar calls. You know, oh, there's like a whole world.

People actually think about Christianity. You actually defend it. There are people who have the same doubts and the same. questions that I've had and they have an answer for them from the Bible and started reading C.S. Lewis and Tim Keller and John Piper and David Platt and even Francis Chan. I'm not saying all those people are reformed. I read all of them. Yeah. So anyway, right there right there with you. There are problems with that movement, of course, in retrospect. Obviously, we know some issues with Mark Driscoll and his leadership and things like that. But I'm thankful for how it got me interested

in theology. Yeah, I think it's funny, you know, the Bible promises us that God will build his church. You know, the gates of hell will not prevail against it. And I think that what we see is we kind of zoom out and look at history is God uses movements. Movements come and go, you know, the kind of the, there's been a rise and fall of the young, restless, and reformed and movements before them. But God has used each wave for his glory to bring in new Christians to build his church. And it is, At the same time, it's tragic when you look back at, like, a lot of those people that we followed and loved and listened to their preaching. There's been this, I think, you know, ever since 2016, there has been this huge schism in the church where, you know, some people

went drastically one way, some people went drastically the other way. Wokeness got involved and that whole worldview around, you know, race and, you know, epistemology. Really messed a lot of things up. And so that affected, what ended up happening, we left that church that we had been a part of planting. Me and my friend, we also split. We went completely opposite directions. He no longer claims to be a Christian. He's a progressive, ex-phangelical, and I am still this, you know, whatever you want to call me.

Did you say that he was raised fundamentalist too? Yeah, probably very similar to me. and it's you know it is uh i think about it often you know why why did why am i still in the faith why did god keep me um and whereas my friend veered off you know yeah that's i think that's something to wrestle with it's a very it's a very difficult thing yeah but and what i mean what do you think the difference is when you when you think about it i mean i know you don't have answer, but if you were just to kind of theorize, obviously there are differences, maybe in personality, and experiences, upbringings maybe a little bit, but like when you look back to that

formative time in your life and you kind of abandon some of the non-Christian beliefs that you were raised with that were masquerading as Christian. Yes. And then you discovered the gospel and the freedom that comes from that. like what what was if you can think back like the shift in your thinking that apparently your friend did not have yeah um it's tough i think um when on paper if you look at everything that's happened to me in my life you know i i have the classic ex-phangelical experience you know i've been hurt by the church i know women who have been abused by men in the church i've i've seen the good the bad and the ugly of the

church, you know, and know a lot of people who have left for things that I've experienced myself. I think, I guess, at a higher level, I guess that's when I, I guess my Calvinist side comes out a little bit, and I, I'm Calvinist when it suits me. Yeah. And I just have to. Oh, I'm sure that you and Seth to get into some good discussions about that, because somehow it always comes up whenever I'm with, Seth, Armini and Dylan. Yeah, and then Kyle, our editor-in-chief's hardcore Calvinist, so they like to, but I'm kind of a squish in the middle.

I think it's kind of one of those paradoxes that our human brains can't really wrap our minds around. But it's one of those things where I just have to chalk it up to God has me and won't let me go. I don't know why. I mean, I think I was very fortunate to kind of be removed from my bubble, placed in this very dark, godless place with nothing but a Bible. and, you know, 12-hour guardpost shifts where I'm sitting in a tower with just looking on a dead horizon and nothing else to do but read my Bible. I think that's what I would challenge a lot of people to do who are struggling. You know, read the Gospels, read the words of Jesus.

I mean, you can't pin him down into right wing or left wing. He goes right to the heart. He goes right to your sin and right to what you really need. The other thing too, C.S. Lewis, reading mere Christianity was incredibly transformative, especially that opening chapter where he just starts with the moral law and reality. I still go back to that so often. Yeah, it was reading that was extremely revelatory. But at the same time, I know a lot of people who have deconverted who read a lot of those same things too.

So why? God is good. God is gracious. And that's, you cannot, you cannot claim credit for your own salvation because it's God who does the work. Yeah. And all I can do is just fall on my knees and thankfulness to him and pray for those who, who are struggling and who have all these questions that, you know, the book that me

and Kyle wrote, the postmodern Pilgrim's Progress, wrestles with a lot of those things. This main character that we wrote kind of goes through all of the, the nastiness that you see in the church and the hypocrites and the pastors who have moral failings and things like that. And that kind of the mantra that keeps them going is walk forward. You know, sometimes that's really all you can do. When people fail you, when churches hurt you, when you're reading the scripture and you don't feel like you're getting anything out of it, sometimes all you can do is just have like this

very simple childlike faith in your father and hold his hand and walk forward with him. until the answers become clear. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. But there's really something to what Jesus said where it talks about the kingdom of heaven belongs to those who become like little children. If you hold on to your pride and you are this person who needs to have everything answered, needs to know everything, it's not going to work for you. You have to have this level of trust and rest that God is good.

even if you don't know what he's doing all the time, you know. Just like a child obeys, or you teach your child to obey a parent, even if they don't feel like it. Right. Because we love them, and they learn to do that. They don't know where we're going when we get in the car half the time. And yet they do it because, okay, these people love me. They want what's best for me.

And I do think that that is the faith that fuels our obedience as Christians, because I've been this person, and I have friends who have been this person who say, I don't want to stop doing acts because I don't feel convicted about it. Yes. And I've even had friends who say, who say, I've journaled about it, I've prayed about it, I've read scripture about it, and I don't feel convicted. So it must not be that bad. We've probably all been that in bigger, small ways at some part of our lives, even as

sincere Christians. But that is not the faith like a child that God calls us to. to. God does not say when you feel like it, come to me. He says, take up your cross and follow me. You die to yourself. You die to those feelings that desire your sin. And so, yeah, that child like faith is really hard when you think that you know best, and especially in an age when we are told that all of our feelings are valid and not just valid, but totally legitimate. Yes. And worth following. Yeah. Well, that is like the fundamental. divide in our religion, our politics, our culture.

It is divided between people who believe that we identify, in self-identification, we define who we are and those who say we are who God says we are. Yeah. And you mentioned childlike obedience there. It's really true. And I've said this to a lot of people, you know, in the aftermath of the pandemic, a lot of people lapsed and, you know, going to church, you know, slow going back because just, you know, the pandemic was so messy and icky and, you know, go to church. God command, I don't care if you feel like it.

God commands you to gather with other believers. So like, okay, drag yourself there in spite of how you feel. The feelings will come later. The conviction will come later. Sometimes you just have to start with obedience. It's clearly written in scripture. God tells us what to do. Whether you feel like or not, trust him with that and just do it.

And sometimes, you know, you can't always wait for the feelings to come. Yeah. I, like I said, I wasn't raised fundamentalist. I was raised Christian, which I'm very thankful for, very thankful for the foundation that my parents gave me. I went to a Christian school kindergarten through 12th grade. So it's a private Christian school, wasn't homeschooled. And I thought it was a great education. There are things looking back that didn't love about it that I thought, you know, I think now could be better, maybe weren't great.

But I'm very thankful for learning theology from an early age and learning how to apply it to different subjects. And I'm always shocked when I see a comment on Facebook or something from someone who had my same education who says something like, oh, I just like, I'm. I'm so glad that I, you know, that I've overcome all the lives that I learned from going to a Christian school. And it's just, it's so damaging what I learned growing up. And I just, I think I'm like, okay, we had the same upbringing. I know your family. We have the same teachers. And now they've deconstructed.

They've become progressives. And the funny thing is, is that they always see themselves. It seems like very courageous. Yeah. They're so courageous for no longer believing what their parents taught them and what we learned at school. So I'm like, okay, you're courageous by adopting all of the ideas and standards of morality that the vast majority of our culture does. You're courageous for going with the mainstream. You're courageous for abandoning all of these unpopular moral and biblical positions and just.

being like everyone else who doesn't have a biblical moral compass and they see someone like me as someone who did not escape and who is still just caught in this like delusion of Christian education. Whereas I look at them the same way. I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, you went to the Northeast for college and a professor poked, you know, into your belief system a little bit and you were rattled and then you just decided that it would be easier to agree with what the vast majority of the world believes. And they see me as trapped. I see them as trapped.

They see me as someone who conformed to what I've just been taught, which I, and I see them as people who have been conformed to what they've been brainwashed to believe in a lot of ways. And it is when I think about, like, well, what was the difference? Because these, a lot of these people also, they're like, you know, I vote Democrat for the poor. I'm like, dude, I knew your family. You had like three homes.

Yes. What are you talking about? I know where you, I know the gated community that you were raised in. Like what? And I just wonder, I'm like, what did happen? Same with you and your friend about like, okay, I guess I could have gone that direction too. I had plenty of reasons to do it.

Same kind of thing. I mean, I've always been a very independent person. I could see myself a liking feminist ideology. I like to work. I could see myself abandoning or could have seen myself abandoning like the family commitment thing. And yet, I guess like you, it's just that God kept me. He kept me. And by his grace, he kept me through a lot of seasons where I could have let my doubt just take me in a direction of total apostasy. And I guess that's the difference. It's not because I'm smarter than those people. I'm not. It's not because I'm naturally better than those people.

I'm not. It just has to be the grace of God. That's got to be it. Yeah, I completely agree with you. I think that's a good perspective. And I think that that when we interact with a lot of those folks, and I interact with a lot of these people on Twitter, they're very angry, very bitter.

It's good to always keep that in mind when you're interacting with people who have left the church. remembering that you're only still where you are for the grace of God, or because of the grace of God. And I do think, too, that Satan is a liar. Our culture is very compelling and deceptive, and it is a parallel religion, you know. And I think a lot of people who grew up in religion,

who are very swept away by kind of the religious trappings, who are star Christians or star evangelicals, they kind of what I see a lot of times is they they switch sides and they're they're still fundamentalists in their own way yeah just for the other side just for the progressive side they still have that same kind of religious fervor that passion they're legalistic legalistic that idea they believe in dogma with with other people that disagree with me it's it's it's it's the same thing playing for a different team just yeah it's the different side of the same coin yeah and so I think you

you know you have to you have to have this I don't know anytime you get swept up and Christians are guilty of this too we get we get swept up by you know charismatic leaders

you know a church that seems to have it all together you know a book you know a book will come along that like just every Christian has to read this book we do the same thing on our side sometimes and I think you you have to continually step back and evaluate yourself and ask yourself, you know, am I following men right now or am I following

God? You know, and bring yourself back to the very basics of what scripture says, what God is clear about in His Word, kind of leaving the open-handed things open-handed. You know, even as a Christian, you still can't be like, you know, dogmatic, you know. Be sure about what God says in His Word, and beyond that, there's really, there's really, There's really not a lot you can be sure about. Yeah. Tell me how you came to the Babylon B. Yeah, so I was miserable my job.

My wife was tired of me being miserable all the time, I think. And she encouraged me to branch out. So she was a nurse. She said, I will, you know, I'll pull extra shifts at the hospital. You should take a year and figure this out. Just start writing. So I started writing. I started a podcast. I wrote columns for different newspapers, kind of just working out a lot of the

thoughts I had about, you know, politics and Christianity, worldview, things like that. And then I started just kind of on the side, I started pitching ideas to the Babylon Bee. I also started a little website called the Petty Prophet, which was a Babylon Bee knockoff. I was writing my own jokes and putting them up. And I started pitching. They liked what I was pitching. And that just kind of snowballed. I started writing a joke a day, a couple articles a day.

That turned into kind of a part-time job for them. And sooner or later, I was working full-time. And Kyle called me and said, well, you're kind of full-time. We should probably just hire you. That's awesome. So, I mean, it's wild. I still can't believe I'm doing this. Yeah.

It is truly God's grace because it is the perfect marriage. marriage of, you know, like my passion for truth, you know, worldview, you know, politics, and my kind of my natural sarcastic, disrespectful, you know, attitude about things. It just, it works out great. So I'm glad God led me here. I also had a sarcastic, disrespectful, disrespectful attitude growing up. And so there's like something, too, that I haven't worked it out yet. but those of us who had that, we all seem to end up here,

making fun of the things that are supposed to. There's so much, I mean, this. Be made fun of. There is, our culture and our world is so ridiculous. People are so ridiculous. The things that people say with so much seriousness and sanctimony and earnestness is just so funny to me. The corruption that we see in Washington, while, I mean, it's tragic.

It's damaging. and we ring our hands about it, but it's also hilarious. Yeah. We see human beings dressed up in their nice suits who think they're so important, you know, conspiring together and being corrupt. And it's, you know, I think of Psalm 2, where it talks about the kings of the earth conspire together and talk about how they're going to loose their bonds

and free themselves of these chains. And the Lord laughs at them. And we who are in Christ can laugh too, I think when we have that eternal perspective that we belong to a kingdom that is not of this world. Our king will never be defeated. And we know who wins in the end. We can still fight.

We have to speak truth. We have to do what's right in the moment for our family and for our kids and for our country. But regardless of what happens, whether we're successful or whether we're defeated, we can still have this joy and this hope that comes from knowing who our real king is, who are where our end is.

And so I think that's where a lot of, lot of the laughter comes from the Babylon B, you know, even while our culture and our, our country seems to be crumbling in front of us, there is something that is a little bit funny about it. Yeah. I also think I laugh at the people who get angry at y'all for your joke, because you have become more conservative. It kind of did used to be more niche, more like making fun of, okay, both Joel Lohsteen and maybe John McArthur or something. And now it has kind of expanded to more like news. I mean, you'll still do that stuff, but it's more kind of like what people are talking about in the news. And it's conservative. I mean, you're mostly making fun of the left because they're

ridiculous. Yes. And all the people who maybe they were fans of the Babylon B in 2016, because you made fun of someone that they didn't like, now they crossed their arms. They're like, you're not supposed to make fun of that. And they make me laugh because, as you said, sanctimony, They're so sanctimonious and self-serious and it's just funny. It makes it so much funnier. I think there's something about, I think, conservative humor right now that half of the country does not think it's funny at all. And to us, that makes it funnier. Oh, that's so funny.

You know, the fact checks that we got, you know, when Snopes would fact-check the Babylon B. Did CNN really purchase an industrial-sized Washington washing machine to spin the news? Did Trump really propose putting a space navy on the dark side of the moon? You know, like these were actual fact checks. Did AOC actually die trying to tie her shoes because she's so stupid? Those are real fact checks. Yes. I mean, it almost like it adds a second punchline to the joke because we put the joke out there, you know,

people laugh. And then it gets this very serious, well-researched, like three-page fact check, you know, from a very serious person. Oh my gosh. That's so funny. It's just great. The other day I saw there's another comedian John Christ who did like a parody video as like a meteorologist or something like that.

It was obviously like ridiculous. It was like a meteorologist has like a meltdown or something. And I guess some people thought that it was serious that a fact checking site, I think it was Snopes had to like very seriously say that this is a comedian. Thank God for Snopes. I do think we don't have time to like. get into all this because I do want to do a fun segment to end us. But like there's also, I think that that is also a product of our culture and of secular progressivism is its inability

to create beauty. Yes. And within that, it's inability to have true joy outside of politics and political wins and power struggles. It's like they don't have joy in anything. Like everything is anger inducing. So they can't laugh at it. The only thing. they can laugh at is when unvaccinated people die. Yeah, well, I mean, and a lot of that reminds me of like the hardcore fundamentalism that I grew up with. Yes. It's just like what you were saying earlier. Yeah, their worldview is, I mean, they've thrown out 2,000 years of wisdom and knowledge, you know, that our culture is based on. They've decided to kind of create this, their own moral framework from scratch, and it's an absolute disaster. And every waking moment they spend is meant to defend

this rickety scaffolding that they've created, they can't laugh at it because as soon as you laugh at it, it all comes crashing down. And so it's like they're just, I mean, like religious fundamentalists, they are very, very jealously and angrily and fearfully defending their worldview.

My gosh, that's so true. It's kind of like when you hear those horrible stories of, in places like France, like people getting their head cut off for making fun of Allah or Muhammad. I mean, it's not that, it's not the difference. It's like you make fun of their gods and their idols here.

And while it may not be as physically violent, in some cases, they are just angry because you are making fun of their God. Exactly. All right. I wanted to end with a fun segment with a Would You Rather segment. Oh, boy. It's not serious at all, but you do seriously have to pick. I don't know what the consequence is.

if you don't, you get kicked out of the studio and you can never come back. I wouldn't want that. Yeah. Okay. I didn't come up with these, but they're good. And I might come up with some more if I think of some on the spot. Okay. Would you rather read Adam Schiff's book about January 6th once a month for the rest of the year?

Or no, not the rest of the year, because that's not enough time. Next year. That's your New Year's resolution. You have to read Adam Schiff's book. about January 6th every single month or would you rather have to eat bugs as the main ingredient of your meals um let's say every day for six months I would read Adam Schiff's book every single month I will not eat bugs I will never eat bugs I don't get I will starve and I will die before I eat bugs oh my gosh you probably by the

the year you could have to be memorized. My Twitter feed would then become insufferable because I'd be making fun of Adam Schiff's book with every tweet for the rest of the year. Yeah, it'd be the only thing that you can think about. Okay. Would you rather leave your job at the Babylon B to become a spokesperson for Pfizer? Or, okay, every time something, okay. I'm trying to understand.

understand exactly what this means. Okay, I'm going to change it a little bit. Okay, so you have to leave your job at the Babylon B to be a spokesperson for Pfizer. Their commercials, things like that. You might even have to like go on Don Lemon's show and just like talk about how great Pfizer is. or would you rather have to listen to a two-hour-long Bernie Sanders podcast first thing every day when you wake up at regular speed? He could be talking to... Regular speed, oh no. Yeah, he could be talking about putting.

He could be talking about Mother Russia. You never know. Whatever it is. Okay, I would listen to Bernie Sanders' podcast and eat the bugs instead of become a spokesperson for Pfizer. Wow. That is a bridge too far for me. Every morning, Bernie Sanders, two hours.

Okay. Would you rather, every time you travel, every time you get on a plane, Stacey Abrams has to go with you. I just made that one up. She has to, from the time you leave, like your car, I don't know if you pick her up or she meets you at your house. You go to the airport. You get on the plane, and from the time you get here or wherever it is, St. A.C. Abrams is your companion. Doesn't matter. You don't have to talk to her, but... Or would you rather have a standing lunch date with AOC every Friday, two hours minimum?

Am I in the middle seat on the airplane? It doesn't matter. You have to sit next to her, though. So... Okay, so I'm thinking strategically here. I think I would go AOC, not because I have a crush on her or anything. Okay, well, she might think that. I think because she is much more influential in the culture than Stacey Abrams is, and I would make it my goal to try to convert her and make her a powerful agent for goodness and righteousness.

Yes, I think about that too. Whenever someone's like, who would you like to like, how do you like, how to, like, have lunch with or have dinner with or be friends with on the left. I'm like AOC because I can see in her little face that she doesn't really understand what she's saying. And I just think she's a little help. At some level she is, she's motivated by good things. She just wants, you know, she wants to take care of people. She wants to, you know, whatever, like every good liberal, you know, and she's just ignorant.

Okay. Would you rather have without Seth or Kyle? knowing, start to delegate all of your joke writing to Samantha B. She has to come up with the headlines and you have to submit them. And they have to think it's coming from me. Yes. And if they criticize them, you have to get mad. You're defensive about it because this is the best that you can.

Or from now on, 10% of your income goes to the jet fuel for Kenneth Copeland's jet. Oh, no. Oh, that's hard. That's really, man, that's an impossible choice. That's an impossible choice. I know, Samantha B. I tried, I sat through like a compilation of her funniest stuff, like the funniest stuff I could find to see if I could laugh.

It's not. Yeah, you can't. All of late night comedy. I never watch broadcast television anymore. Like when I'm in a hotel, you know, sometimes I'll put on whoever it is, Colbert. But it's, I try to be charitable. watching these guys and they're just so they're not so angry no they're so angry and not funny um

oh um i couldn't i think i'd have to go kind of kenneth copland's jet i oh man that's i mean your livelihood would be on the line if you delegated that to samantha b yes well i well yeah i would i would i would i would give my my 10 percent to kenneth copland's jet while simultaneously praying that God grounds the jet and it can never take off again. Yeah. In a peaceful way. A peaceful grounding. Yeah.

Well, you know, our money all the time is going to causes that we hate. We spend money with corporations and our cell phone companies and everything else. It's kind of hard to get away from that sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I got one. I'm going to, this is not what's written down, but this is a funny scenario in my head.

All right. This might be the last one. I don't know. You're in a life or death situation, all right? You're a life or death situation. I don't know what it is. You're in some, like, I don't know, you're on a stranded. You're on a deserted island.

You are about to get attacked. But you have 30 seconds for one phone call to call to call someone and this person can rescue you. But you need to very clearly under pressure, communicate to them where you are. what you're doing and what needs to be done. Okay. This is so funny to me. It might not be funny to you. Who would you put in charge of making that call?

30 seconds, your life is on the line. John Federman or Joe Biden. I did not see that comment. Joe Biden or John Fettner. Oh, no. Life or death. Who am I staking my life on here? I'm going to have to say Joe Biden. I think so too, man. I think so too.

He's got the resources. He's the president. He's got Marine one and Air Force one. You know, he can send the military to rescue me from whatever is attacking me. I think if you also told him the exact words to say. Yes. And spoken really short sentences and like held his face. Yeah. And we're like, listen to me and you told him, I don't think Fetterman could do it. I don't think he could do it. No, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I would not trust Fetterman. Okay. Good choice. Okay, would you rather, hmm.

He's great. Okay, would you rather be Dylan Mulvaney's videographer for a month. Do you know who Dylan Mulvaney is? So you're the one who has to hold his phone while he's doing the TikToks. Oh, goodness. Okay. Or would you rather be run PR for Kamala Harris as your job? Oh, man. I'd have to go Kamala Harris on that one. I don't know if I could do the Dillamalvaney videos.

Plus, I think that would be a great art. opportunity to get some sneaky satire in with Kamala's PR. Oh, yeah. You know, I think that would be really fun. Some guerrilla satire. Yep. Okay, these are good. These are funny.

Okay, would you rather PayPal takes $2,500 from you every time you miss ginder someone? Or you have to send $2,500 to the war in Ukraine every time you make fun of a liberal? I think I would have to go with $2,500 going to Ukraine for making fun of a liberal because I could not give up my right to misgender somebody whenever I want. That's a fundamental guy. Yeah. Wow. That's a lot of money sent to the war in Ukraine. Let's see.

Would you rather, I think this is the last one, I'm trying to see if I want to change it at all. Would you rather your eulogy be given by Jesse Smollett? Or would you rather have to give a eulogy for? Okay, I'm trying to make this up as I go. Who would you rather give your eulogy? Jesse Smollett or John Federman, just kidding. Beto O'R. I think that's easy, Jesse Smollett, because he is an actor.

Yeah. And I think that he could probably really gin up a lot of emotion and get the tears welling up just about how great my life was. And there wouldn't be a dry eye on the place. after he just kind of manipulated everybody's emotion. But he might use that to accuse you of a hate crime. That's true. You were the person who told him in Chicago that he was in Maga Land.

He was in Maga territory. Yeah, then it's on my Wikipedia forever and I'm ruined. Yeah. Yeah, I'd have to go, Jesse, I think. Okay. Yeah, take a risk. Last question. Would you rather have your mom's haircut?

Or It depends on the time period Like early 90s haircut or hair cut or haircut now Now, her hair or her arms I'd go with her hair Yeah I can deal with long hair If the style it the way that she does

You can't change it, you can't cut it Yeah I think that would be okay That would be okay Okay. Yeah. Well, on that note, that's the end of our conversation. Okay, where can people find you, buy your books, all that good stuff? Yes.

You can find me on Twitter at Joel W. Berry, thebabolombie.com. We have a lot of extra stuff for subscribers if you support what we do, which we always appreciate. And then our new book is The Babylon Bee Guide to Democracy just came out. It's really fun. Got a lot of pictures. Yeah. No matter who you are. Even Left Us will like it, I think, get a kick out of it.

So definitely pick that. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come on. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you so much. Hey, this is Steve Day.

If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they live. even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed,

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